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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to the youe Are Not Broken podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kelly Casperson, a board certified urologist, thought leader, and conversation starter on midlife living, hormones and sexuality. Enjoy the show. Hey, everybody. Is your sex life okay, but you want it to be better? I have Dr. Jamia on today. Dr. Emily Jamia, author of the newly released book Anatomy of. Welcome to the you're Not Broken podcast.
- [00:30]
B
Thank you so much. I am so thrilled to be here with you today. I'm such a fan of your work too. So it's great to connect face to face.
- [00:37]
A
Thank you. So, I mean, to me, your book is the next level. Like my book. I feel like I read your book and I was like, this is a book to read after you read. You Were Not Broken. Because mine's like, more intro, the vulva's important, blah, blah, blah. And your book's really like, sex is not shitty. Sex is good or decent. It's. Is it possible there's a next level? And I love that because that's what's missing, I think in the instruction is like, we're just trying to get people not shitty. Yeah. And then there's like, there is another world. Can you talk about, like, what inspired you to write the book?
- [01:14]
B
Yeah, sure. So, you know, I noticed I had clients come in. You know, I've been doing this work for over 15 years. And to your point, I would get people where I could help them improve desire, I could improve satisfaction, I could help women have more consistent orgasms, could help guys, you know, regain ejaculatory control, but they'd come back and they'd be like, it's better, but we want a little more zhuzh, if you will. Is it ever going to be as good as it was in the honeymoon stage or we see in the movies? And I'd give them my spiel about how the honeymoon stage is a temporary intoxicating mix of neurochemicals designed for pair bonding, but it's not sustainable. And remind them that in Hollywood, those are paid actors who do a lot of rehearsal to get those scenes looking as good as they do. And even cited research, you know, citing like the quote, good enough sex model. I mean, good enough sex is the word in the research. Now, meanwhile, I was newly engaged and I was like, I'll be damned if I'm going to have good enough sex, you know, after a certain point. So I started paying closer attention to the language my clients were using to describe the sex they wanted. You know, I want it to feel effortless. I want the world around me to disappear. I want to be totally absorbed in the moment. And I'm like, oh, they're describing a flow state. And it kind of clicked. And I'm like, oh, well, of course the flow state is what people would want to experience during sex. Now, I was familiar with the concept of flow. And for your listeners who don't know what that means, it's a decades old term coined by this American Hungarian psychologist named Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.
- [02:52]
A
Thanks for knowing how to say his lesson.
- [02:54]
B
Yeah, I had to learn Csikszentmihalyi. Yeah, you can kind of break it down. And it describes the state of mind we are in when we are so absorbed in an activity in which we experience a sense of unity and merger, even transcendence. Think of a surfer who's at one with the wave, or your friend who's addicted to the runner's high. I mean, most people can think of something that puts them in the zone. And however, I hadn't learned about the concept of flow as it relates to sex in any of my training. So, you know, being a very evidence based person practitioner, I turned to the research to see what I could find. And there was nothing out there. I found one paper that looked at a small sample of BDS and M practitioners and kind of looking at altered states of consciousness, but that was it. And so I was like, okay, I have questions, I need answers. So I initiated a research study, got a group of people administered a sexual satisfaction scale and, and then asked them to reflect back on some of the more positive or extraordinary experiences that they had had with one another and gave them the flow state scale to see if flow is what they were experiencing. And lo and behold, you know, there was a really strong correlation between flow state and sexual satisfaction. So much so that flow predicted higher levels of satisfaction, which was really exciting to me because it kind of gave me a new avenue or approach or dialogue that I could have with my clients about how to improve satisfaction. What I did next is I called up my participants with the highest scores and had really long conversations with them about what those encounters were like and how they got there. And meanwhile, Peggy Kleinplatz kind of released her book Magnificent Sex, which is excited. I think it's amazing. It's fantastic.
- [04:51]
A
I literally discuss that book all the time.
- [04:53]
B
Yeah, I think I cite it in every single chapter of my book. And you know, like you were talking about, you know, we've got sexual dissatisfaction and then we've got good enough sex and satisfaction and Things are a little bit better. But she was really the one of the first people to study kind of sex at that upper echelon. And her work really inspired my own. And a lot of what I found was, you know, very in line with her findings. I think the difference is that this concept of flow and how to get into a flow state is familiar to a lot of people. I think people hear it and they're like, okay, I can do that. And the feedback has been great. I started applying it to my clients and getting really exciting results and the book was born.
- [05:36]
A
It's just so badass. Oh, you're so sweet. It's like literally badass because. Because we've just been trying to get people out of the hole for so long and I will, I will have a law. I will die at the end of my career trying to get all the people the hole. I know, like, there's just so many people.
- [05:55]
B
People in the hole.
- [05:55]
A
Going to be all the people in the hole. But there's a lot of people that aren't in the hole and they're like, they're optimizing everything else in their life.
- [06:02]
B
Exactly. We're all about longevity and yeah. It's all about optimization.
- [06:07]
A
Zone two cardio. Yeah. You know, for. Not that you are going to make sex a chore, but it's. It's kind of this optimal of like, is there more?
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B
Right?
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A
Is there more? And like, you know, I always say we don't. We didn't get sex ed. We. We certainly didn't get adult sex ed. But like, if sex is good, the next natural question is, is there more?
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B
Yeah.
- [06:28]
A
And it doesn't have to be like completely breaking out of your monogamous long term. Like, people are like, you know what we need? We need to be poly. We need to get to divorce. Have an open relationship. Like, their idea that. That's their idea of more or next level. And you're creating a framework for there's more with where you are right now.
- [06:49]
B
Exactly. Yeah. And you know, we know from the research that's coming out in the poly community and in people who have open relationships, I mean, you need a really solid primary relationship in order for that to work. Well, you know, I think it. Yeah. And instead, you know, people are deciding to open up as a band aid for, you know, dysfunction in their primary relationship, which I don't recommend. And I.
- [07:16]
A
It's kind of like a no shit.
- [07:19]
B
Right. I know.
- [07:20]
A
But like, it needs to be. Our relationship is falling apart.
- [07:23]
B
Let's have a baby. Let's open things up.
- [07:25]
A
Let's get a puppy.
- [07:27]
B
Yeah.
- [07:30]
A
Like maybe maybe just add things until my husband. Yeah, most people just keep adding things until something breaks.
- [07:37]
B
Exactly, Exactly. And so, you know, I think that there are definitely people in open relationships who are having sex at that optimal level and who kind of draw from that new relationship energy. But, you know, having a secure attachment to your primary partner, having stability and security there, regardless of whether you're monogamous or not, is such a core foundation.
- [08:00]
A
Oh, my God. It's huge. Let's talk about safety, because I think, like, your next book. My next book. The next book could be about safety.
- [08:08]
B
Yeah.
- [08:09]
A
Because I think it is completely overlooked in. And I'll gender stereotype for a little bit. But, like, feel free to expand. Women need to feel safe. They need to feel safe in their relationship, safe in their body, safe with their partner, safe before you can say, sex can be good.
- [08:26]
B
Exactly.
- [08:27]
A
And that's not in any sex ed that we got.
- [08:30]
B
No, you are 100% right. It is the foundation, one of the most interesting elements of flow. So there's eight core components of flow. You don't have to have all eight at the same time, but one of them is called the paradox of control. And I love this one, because what I hear time and again, as I'm sure you do, is from women in particular, struggling with an ability to surrender during sex. So they'll say things like, I just can't let go. And what I like to remind them and what the paradox of control is all about is that surrender and control are not mutually exclusive. In fact, you cannot surrender if you're not also in control. You know, I use a snow skiing analogy a lot. Like, I can fly down. Well, I wouldn't fly. Might be an overstatement, but I can have a great time going down a blue. And I always try to push myself, you know, at least a couple of times on a block. And the deal is, I can't surrender to the experience of skiing because I'm either too in control of my skis or I feel like I'm totally losing control. Right. So control on either side of the extreme is not going to allow you to surrender. And, you know, I think when people hear safe having a safe and secure relationship, they may think that that means you are enmeshed with your partner or that things are boring. And, you know, that couldn't be farther from the truth. It's when we have that security that we actually feel freer to explore the world around us. You know, we see this in kids as well as adults. So this was reflected in my research, too. People could be the most sensual, the most curious person in the world. You know, have really high scores on those assessments. This was in another study I did. But if they didn't have a secure relationship, their sexual satisfaction scores plummeted. So you have 101.
- [10:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think from desire to arousal to all those, like, you know, components of female sexuality, if safety is not there, you're, you know, you're talking about, like, unobtainable things.
- [10:38]
B
Right.
- [10:38]
A
So what can women do to feel safe? What can maybe male partners do to help their partner feel safe? What are some basic safety tips?
- [10:47]
B
I think you need to be. You've got to remove any judgment or shame. You know, you have to feel like you can express yourself and that your partner is not just creating a safe place for you to open up, but also genuinely curious about what you have to say, that they want to understand and get to know you and work collaboratively together to make any tweaks that you need to the sexual experience so that you can get to that place of surrender and letting go. And I think women need to be very clear with their partners that they won't be able to enjoy the sexual experience if that's not there.
- [11:26]
A
If you don't feel safe, first of all, understanding that, having the words for you to say that, right. Then being able to communicate that with somebody else, like, if you didn't realize you weren't safe, they're not going to know.
- [11:36]
B
Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I always like to remind. Again, we're kind of using gender language here and heteronormative language. But, you know, I always like to remind my male partners, like, it's in your best interest if you want more frequent sex, if you want better quality sex, like, listen to her, listen to what she's saying. You know, do and say the things that make her feel seen and heard and loved by you. Because only then is she going to be able to get out of her head and into her body and be completely focused and absorbed in the moment. The way maybe it's a bit easier for you to do.
- [12:09]
A
I love it. I think safety. And then the second one, sub, the subsidiary. If safety is a, then this might be a one is the role of being connected and feeling connected to your partner. And if you're not connected, you know, I always joke, like, there's two people living in the same house. The one who uses sex to get connected and the one who needs to be connected to have sex and they don't know that that's how the other one functions. And so then there's like, then there's like no intimacy talk about the role of like, maybe some advice of like, how to feel connected. I think this myth of like, if you were connected once, you should just always be connected. And that's not how it works.
- [12:44]
B
No, you can't have a set it and forget it mentality. You know, the last chapter of the book is all about attunement. And the metaphor I use here is, you know, a pair of ballroom dancers that appears to glide across the floor. And as one unit, you know, she knows as soon as he begins to raise his arm what that's signaling her body to do. That doesn't happen if they're not practicing on a semi regular basis. And you know, if you were to swap in a completely new partner, you wouldn't see that level of synchrony. And there's actually really interesting research kind of new coming out around attunement and sexual satisfaction. Bridget Fine Frinehart is kind of spearheading this finding that couples who are, are more attuned, you know, outside the bedroom experience greater levels of satisfaction and sexual synchrony inside the bedroom. And you know, what that comes down to, I think, is spending quality time together off the devices. I tell my couples to initiate like a daily, weekly, quarterly ritual where they can just give each other, you know, one on one undivided attention. You have to do that in order to get that physiological synchrony that I'm talking about. About. I mean, we know from her research and other studies that are coming out around this that our nervous systems actually sync up. You know, heart rates will start beating around the same pace, respiratory systems start. You know, your breathing levels are at the same pace. That doesn't happen when you're living like two ships passing in the night or when there's a lot of relationship conflict. And in fact, and a really interesting finding from her research is that women's bodies tend to match their male partners bodies a bit more like men tend to set the tone and then women's bodies will kind of match where they are. And so if you're wanting your female partner to relax and want it to calm her nervous system, you need to be doing the things to evoke that response in her. And there's, I think, a lot that men can do to, to help. And it doesn't, you know, take that much work.
- [14:54]
A
But you do have to learn something. Maybe you haven't done Before.
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B
Yes, you do. You do. We cannot default to, like, the male model, you know?
- [15:03]
A
Right. Like, we've just been taking care of the household and the kids and the jobs, and now let's have sex.
- [15:08]
B
No. Yeah. You cannot transition. I mean, in the sensuality chapter, I talk a lot about focus. You know, we know from research on focus that it usually takes an average of 11 minutes to get into a focused state. You know, most people don't have sex that lasts that long. And if focus is broken, it can take, like, 25 minutes to regain focus, you know, and so I will tell people, on a day when you think you're going to connect sexually, you want a single task as much as possible. You want to be present in your body as much as possible, and then sometimes doing a little mini transition from the chaos of the day to get yourself more into that erotic space. We're talking, you know, spending 30 seconds and doing some diaphragmatic breathing. Or, you know, I tell people after I had kids, you know, it was a lot harder for me, obviously, to make that transition. And I had to have a conversation with my husband about, like, I just need you to, like, kind of just massage me for, like, a few minutes before any other types of foreplay start, because I just need that to get out of my head and. And into my body. I can't go from running around like a chicken with its head cut off all day long to, like, being fully present and turned on for you. Like, you've got to help me make that transition. And. And so those are some of the adjustments. I think that really, it's not much, like, it's not rocket science, but it can have a really major positive impact.
- [16:38]
A
I love that. So when you, as your work, as a therapist, what barriers to, like, to desire, because I'm sure you've had a hundred million people come to you with desire issues.
- [16:48]
B
Oh, yeah.
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A
What. What are some common barriers to sexual desire that you see? Like, what are the themes that pop up and how can we overcome these?
- [16:56]
B
You know, if I had to narrow it down to, like, the biggest issue for couples, I would say complacency. You know, people who just stop because that. That covers so many things. I mean, getting complacent in your relationship, you know, not taking the steps to prioritize sex. You know, of course, the obvious things, if there's a lot of relationship conflict, if there's body image issues, if there's, you know, of course, a history of trauma, things like that, that has to be work, you know, but by and large. For the average couple, it is complacency. They just kind of stop trying and they assume that great sex is going to happen automatically.
- [17:35]
A
Yeah, it should just be easy.
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B
Yeah. I should just have, like, a nice fit body because I want to. Right? Yeah.
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A
Awesome.
- [17:42]
B
Doesn't work like that. Wouldn't that be.
- [17:44]
A
And I should just, like, desire vegetables. Yeah.
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B
Wouldn't that be lovely?
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A
Yeah, I would love to just sit here and desire vegetables. But how. Vegetables are good for me. Yeah.
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B
Right.
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A
Like, I should just desire them. Like. No, but when I'm eating, like, a salad and, like, well done. Like, I like it.
- [18:02]
B
Yeah, well done. Veggie is fantastic.
- [18:04]
A
Fantastic.
- [18:05]
B
Yeah. Get some. Some charred Brussels sprouts. I mean, I could snack on those all day.
- [18:10]
A
Maybe paired with the complacency is the sense of entitlement.
- [18:14]
B
Oh, yeah, for sure. Feeling like someone is entitled to sex or, of course, you know, anyone having sex out of a sense of obligation. It's not good for anybody.
- [18:24]
A
Why don't we have more studies on that? There's a profound lack of studies on that. The studies that I've seen are in college students. Because it's easy to. It's easy to research them.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But my practice, it's an epidemic.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Of guilt sex. Should sex, obligation sex, duty sex, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Do not expect that person to have desire for sex. Just. No, don't expect.
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B
Not going to happen.
- [18:51]
A
Not going to happen.
- [18:52]
B
Not at all. I think that gender socialization is probably a big piece of that. You know, so many women are still brought up to believe that sex is something for a man or that, you know, they aren't expected to enjoy sex or want sex as much as guys do. And, you know, I have worked with plenty of horny women in my time, you know, especially broken, too. Yeah. Especially ones that are coming out of, like, unhealthy relationships. You know, I love my midlife divorcees because I'm like the fire, alive and well.
- [19:24]
A
Yeah.
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B
But, yeah, they had kind of gotten, you know, stuck in this sex out of obligation or duty or because it's the right thing to do. And I think that's why so many women feel like sex is a chore. Right. That it's just one more person who needs me. And I really try to shift the narrative for them to. To see sex as something that is wonderful and beneficial for them, you know, rather than having every star aligned so that you can then only then be in the mood for sex. Like, what if we shift our perspective and instead see sex as an opportunity to escape everything else. Just like you would a great yoga class or lunch with a friend. Now, of course, it's gotta be good quality sex or else you want quality sex.
- [20:09]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You say that in your book. You say I show em how by a simple reframe, they can see sex as an opportunity to escape their busy lives. When you reframe that, are you blowing people's minds?
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B
Yeah. And there's resistance there.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Why? I think the belief is so deep and pervasive. And gender equality is still something we struggle with today, you know, in 2025. And I think until we have more gender equality, it's probably something it just. Sex is part of that. And I think that so many women are just gonna again feel like it's more important to their male partners.
- [20:51]
A
I just want to read say his name again.
- [20:54]
B
Mihaly Csikszentmihal.
- [20:59]
A
Dr. C. We'll call him. We'll call him. So define flow in terms of these dimensions, which include challenge, skill, balance. The merging of actions with awareness, having clear task goals, unambiguous feedback, full concentration on the task at hand, a sense of control, a loss of self consciousness, a perception of the transformation of time, and an autotelic or intrinsically rewarding experience. And you could literally do an hour podcast on each of those. But what the thing, one of the things I took away in the like pop culture y 5 Ways to Improve your sex life, blah blah, blah. They're like, buy a swing, you know, wear red fishnet hose. Like it's this like concept of novelty or challenge. And in what the data on flow state is, is it's like, it's a teeny bit of challenge. It's a teeny bit. It's just because you're gonna flip. It's like your great metaphor of the blue versus the black and skiing. Yeah. It's like don't do something that's crazy. It makes you feel out of your element because that's not flow state. Then it's this teeny bit of challenge within a. Like I know what the basics are that I can always fall back on.
- [22:17]
B
Exactly. Yeah. So the challenge skill balance is one of the most predictable and sure fire ways to get into a flow state. And basically if the challenge of what you're doing is too far above your skill set, you're going to feel anxious, scared. Right. Probably not going to want to do it again. If the challenge is too far below your skill set, you'll feel bored, you know. And this I think is where A lot of people land. Sex becomes predictable, routine, monotonous. And so they try to shake things up and they step way too far outside their comfort zones and end up in the anxiety category or in the er. Was something stuck somewhere? I mean, you just. Yeah, you hear all kinds of things. So. Yes. So this is really about, you know, you can think of something that's familiar and then make it more psychologically or emotionally interesting. Like, so many couples get bored with the kind of belly to belly, breathing in each other's ear. Missionary position. Right. I don't know about you, but, like, I'm going to tune out. Of course I'm not going to be present and in a flow state like that. And, you know, as I was applying this model to one of my clients, and I wish the story had made it in the book because I think it brings it to life so well. But it was published already. But he said, you know, instead it was still the missionary position, but I experimented with things like taking her hands and pinning them over her head, which kind of got her attention. It, you know, gave me a sense of dominance over her. Or, you know, I would hold eye contact, which created kind of an intensity, or I would kind of maybe reach around and touch her backside in a way that I didn't usually do. So that adds an extra bit of stimulation. This is all within the missionary position. Right. So there's so much, I think, nuance and opportunity for excitement, even when something's still familiar as well.
- [24:10]
A
Yeah. I think it's just a key teaching because some people, like, they literally are like, let's upset the apple cart in trying to create novelty. And you're like, no, no, no. Flow state says 3% novelty, 5% novelty. Do not go above the 5% novelty or you'll maybe regret it.
- [24:29]
B
You'll get scared. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [24:32]
A
Exactly. I love it. The flow state is. They talk about it a lot in surgery. So surgeries. Surgery is like a classic flow state for surgeons.
- [24:41]
B
Yeah.
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A
And like, you know, there's lots in there about, like our surgeons adhd and we're like, really addicted to flow states. And like. Yeah, because surgery is flow state. Right. It's like, sure. Time. It doesn't matter what time it is. There's. You're not on the clock. It can be years and years and years of practice and then on one day you're just like, that was amazing.
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B
Like, and you're still like, you have to pee. You forget you're hungry.
- [25:06]
A
Yeah, totally. You completely neglected, like, bodily functions. Yeah, Right. And so the sense of flow state to me really resonated because surgeons spend a lot of time in flow states because that's, that's what surgery is.
- [25:20]
B
Yeah. And look, look at all the training and preparation and everything that goes in to that. The assistance, the tool. I mean, there's a lot of preparation. Yeah. And we have to take the same approach for sex. I think this is something we can learn from the BDS&M community. I mean, I'm not surprised that that was the population this other paper examined because there's a ton of preparation that goes into enacting these scenes. You know, safe words are established, safety is established, communication is there. I mean, everybody kind of knows what to expect to a degree.
- [25:56]
A
And then wrapping it up and talking about it afterwards.
- [25:59]
B
Exactly. The aftercare after. Yeah, exactly.
- [26:03]
A
I know. It's like adult sex ed is so essential and so important. And again, it's like this entitlement thing of like, because people don't know what's required.
- [26:13]
B
Right.
- [26:13]
A
They're entitled to think it should just be given or just be easy or it's easy for everybody else or, you know, this, like, it's just a, it's just a sign that they just don't have any knowledge about the, I guess, how complex it can be if you want it to actually be really good. It's like the same thing with surgery. Like you do the exact same surgery for 20 years, but it's a little bit different every single time. And that's what keeps you going. So true.
- [26:43]
B
So true. There's a question that's thrown out in my professional community from time to time, which is, are good lovers born or made? And most people say they're made. And I think there's a little bit of both. As I stepped back from my dad data and looked at these five themes that emerged, you know, which are the five secrets in the book. So sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability and attunement. I'm like, we're born with these qualities. Any kid. Babies explore the world in and through the five senses. You know, four year olds ask an average of 400 questions a day. I have one right now, so I can tell you that is a fact. I'm like, Aiden, ask Alexa. Like, you know, you know, we are hardwired to attune and be vulnerable and attach and we're moldable. The kids are very adaptable. Even though they may resist change, they're pretty adaptable creatures. So, you know, this is not a matter. What I like to remind people, this is not a Matter of becoming someone you're not. It is about reconnecting with qualities that are already there within us, but that we've lost touch with over time, you know, because of things like life experiences or gender socialization or relationship conflict or culture. You name it. And I think that, you know, when we remind ourselves, it's kind of like, okay, like, I can do this, you know, so it's. It's. We're born with it, but we gotta make it.
- [28:08]
A
You talk about it in your book as the role of unlearning.
- [28:11]
B
Yeah.
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A
Like, we. Maybe we were all born with it, and then we got a little dramatic to say we got broken, but. But, like, you do.
- [28:19]
B
I mean, I. I did. I did a workshop over the weekend, and this woman came up to me, you know, after. And I included all the stuff you talk about in your book, too. Just about kind of basic anatomy, and here's our parts and everything. And she came up to me and she said, my whole life I was told the reason I couldn't have an orgasm through penetrative sex is because I had sinned.
- [28:41]
A
Holy.
- [28:42]
B
No, baby, that's just your anatomy completely normal.
- [28:45]
A
Holy.
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B
And what happened to you is spiritual abuse. And I'm sorry that you experienced that. But no.
- [28:53]
A
Well, she. She went. Hopefully she went on to have a good Monday.
- [28:56]
B
I know.
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A
Like, geez Louise, that is oppressive.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah. But it's still happening, you know?
- [29:05]
A
Oh, yeah. Like I said, like, I'll. I love. I love where you are with this book on next level. Because I'm like, we're gonna spend the rest of our. You know, like, there's so much damage at this point, for lack of a better word of like. And. And lack of basic. Basic knowledge.
- [29:19]
B
Right.
- [29:19]
A
Like, if you don't know where the clitoris is, like, I can make you feel safe. It's. But it won't. It will result in an orgasm. Yeah. Yeah. I like what you said. You said that anything that affects your sense of self is going to affect you. Express yourself sexually. And I think of the midlife woman.
- [29:39]
B
Yeah.
- [29:39]
A
Who, like, career, kids, relationship, community duties, whatever it is. And, like, really understanding who you are is not something a lot of people that's not supported. You know, like, you can be perfectly busy your entire life not knowing who you are.
- [29:59]
B
Oh, so true. I mean, it's. I talk to women every day who feel like that. You know, you do the thing that you're expected to do, and you're the good wife and good mother and good sister, daughter. You know, pto. The whole thing. But, like, who are you apart from that? You know, And I write about this in the curiosity chapter about how important it is to take a step back and really discern what beliefs or behaviors or thoughts you have internalized. Because it's the default or because it's what was expected of you. And, you know, really consider what is a true fit for who you are authentically, but what might not be a true fit for you. I don't think we do enough of that.
- [30:43]
A
Yeah, well, I think, and I see in a lot of adults, like, fear. Fear for fear of trying something new. Fear of going outside the box that you've become very comfortable in.
- [30:53]
B
Right. Who wants a lot of brain?
- [30:55]
A
There's a lot of fear. Like, you know, like, maybe you want a different haircut. Maybe you want to wear a different style of clothes. Maybe you want to go learn another language. Like, just be curious about, like, what do you want? And the more you become who you are, I think it's a lot easier to be. Like, the sexuality part is kind of part of that.
- [31:14]
B
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think I say it like three times in the book. You cannot separate your sexuality from your individuality. Sex does not happen in a vacuum. You know, anything that's affecting who you are, your identity, yourself, your sense of self, is gonna reflect in the way that you express yourself sexually. And so it's important, I think, to really have a strong, solid sense of self, which so many people don't.
- [31:41]
A
Oh, I would say it's the minority at this point. You had said something. You said people who tried something new, like shucking an oyster for the first time or trying ballroom dance lessons, were 36 times more likely to have sex with their partner that day.
- [31:56]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [31:57]
A
That's a lot. Percentage more times.
- [31:59]
B
Pretty much like a sure thing at that point.
- [32:05]
A
Yeah. Odds are. And what is it? Is it. Is it the novelty part? Is it the curiosity part? What. What's the connection of trying something new?
- [32:15]
B
Yeah, so this is Amy Wise's research. She has this whole, you know, collection of studies on self expansion. And it's. It's that sense of novelty that is drawn into the sexual experience. So you can essentially, it can feel new and fresh without actually doing anything different because there was something new and fresh in your life and that energy is transferred in, you know, and I think so many of us get stuck in these really monotonous, boring routines. And it so important, you know, every now and then to shake things up a little bit. And, you know, this doesn't mean you have to like backpack through Southeast Asia, necessarily. I mean, there's, you know, look for a free class at your local university or, you know, something online or read a book in a genre that you don't typically read and invite your partner to do the same and have a conversation about it. I mean, there's lots of little things I think that we can do to keep our lives a bit exciting, you know, I tell people. And that energy will. You'll feel it. I think that's part of the reason why vacation. One of many reasons why vacation sex is so great, you know, And I think what I tell people reading this book is I don't want people to think of it as a roadmap. It's better to think of it as a menu. You know, like, if life has become too chaotic and the idea of trying something new, you're like, I don't have an hour in my calendar. Well, the sensuality chapter will help you slow down kind of. Marie Kundo, your sex life. If you know it's become boring and routine, then look at the curiosity chapter. If you know you're struggling to get back on track after a major life adjustment, then that's what the adaptability chapter is all about. You know, suddenly you can't rely on the same position you're used to because the knee just doesn't want to support you in that way. Adaptability, you know, if there's a lot of emotional disconnect, then the vulnerability chapter is what that. So I think it's something I want people to keep on their bookshelves just for different seasons in life as kind of a reminder. And you don't have to read it from COVID to cover, I think, to still get some benefit.
- [34:27]
A
I love that you say in the book, when we rely on our romantic partners to be our everything, to complete us, to make us whole, we snuff the flame of desire. Can you talk about that? Because you're like, wait, wait, I thought you just were telling us we had to be connected and safe. And now you're telling us, but not too much. That's kind of where, like, the enmeshment happens, right? Where it can be, like, too much.
- [34:51]
B
Yeah. Be connected and safe. But please don't tell me your partner's your best friend. Like, have another best friend that you have a spa day with.
- [35:00]
A
You know, especially the role of, like, mothering our partners. That's horrible.
- [35:05]
B
You know, I am so glad you bring that up. I don't know that I got into that too much in the book, but it Is a real issue for people if you feel like you are mothering your partner or if they are parenting you in any way, you know, because you lack a sense of self and can't regulate your own feelings or, you know, whatever it is that is going to create a huge imbalance is going to make the sex, you know, not very good. So we have to be very mindful of, you know, the kinds of things that can lead to power differentials, to, you know, a parent child dynamic that's usually not very conducive to hot sex.
- [35:43]
A
Yeah, that's not sexy. No, I mean, I think it's. Oh, what is her. Esther Perel, who says it's so good is like, it's this balance between novelty and safety.
- [35:54]
B
Exactly.
- [35:55]
A
In a long term relationship of like, you want the long term relationship, but you also want it to be novel. And it's like. And you can have all of it, but you need to have some like awareness of. Of how everything's playing out.
- [36:09]
B
Exactly, exactly. And you know those dynamics. I feel lucky that I was armed with so much information coming into my own relationship because, you know, I remember early on, I don't know if I kind of felt like there was an expectation for me to like do my husband's laundry or something, but I was like, I gotta set the tone from the beginning. I am not, because I'm gonna be doing kids laundry eventually and he can do his own laundry. Like we're both professionals and he does, you know, so.
- [36:38]
A
Yeah. And everybody's gotta find what works for them.
- [36:41]
B
Exactly, exactly. Yeah.
- [36:44]
A
I've discovered you on Instagram a while. You have this reel. It's old now. You should repost it. It's so good. Okay, I'm gonna share it with you. You probably won't even remember it or something, but it's you kind of playing two roles like a split screen and it's like somebod bidding for sex. And I think they get turned down and then like they're like, now you're a petulant child. It's so good. And I think a lot of people. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. What was the inspiration for that real.
- [37:15]
B
Oh, I love. I'm gonna have to find it because now I feel I always try to reference people when I can. Every now and then a name I just can't write on the tip of my tongue. I'm sure it'll come to me. But they do a lot on the person, pursuer, distancer, cycle in sex, you know, there's A lot about that just in relationships and attachment and who's emotionally available and when that can kind of push someone else away. But they really break it down and talk about how that connects to our sex life. And you know, what happens when someone feels rejected sexually. And then, yeah, they can get kind of pouty, which is not a turn on, and then act petulant, which you're like, well, now I really don't. I didn't want to have sex with you. Now I really don't want to have sex with you. And you know how that can feel. But I think it's so important to remember that when there is a bid for sexual connection, you know, it is rarely just about getting off. They could take matters into their own hands. That's what it was all about, you know, but they're wanting to be with you. But so many guys, they don't even have the self awareness or language to articulate that, you know, and so many women, again, are socialized to think that for them it is just about the physical act that they make that assumption. And, you know, and so I will coach my heterosexual couples, I will coach the guys to make it clear that, hey, this isn't just about getting off. Like, I see sex as an opportunity for connection and to feel loved and to feel desired and. And I will remind women, you know, when, if you turn them down, this is not to say you have to have it every time, but, you know, say what you mean, but don't say it mean, you know, you can be gentle and tender about it and say, you know, I'm just, just not there tonight, but I would love to carve out some time tomorrow. Or let's at least spend some time cuddling so that they at least feel like you care about them. Because it's not just physical, it's emotional too.
- [39:12]
A
Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on card Carvana. Twas a lovely suv. An inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight we feast. An offer you can feast on.
- [39:38]
B
Sell your car today on Carvana.
- [39:40]
A
Pick up fees may apply. Yeah, there's a lot of black and white happening because we haven't learned how to communicate.
- [39:46]
B
Yeah.
- [39:47]
A
Of like, you know, and you talk about that too. You say that couples that touch each other more and respond positively to the touch. So not like a boob grab that's unwelcome or anything like that. No, don't do that. Tended to be more sexually satisfied and happy in their relationship.
- [40:02]
B
Yeah, yeah. So touch is so important, you know, and we don't touch each other that much. You know, we'll touch our kids or we, you know, we pet the dog or the cat, but there's just not a whole lot of non sexual physical touch. You know, I think coming Back to Barry McCarthy, he's, he's. And he's so fabulous. And I still. To your point, I love his good enough sex model as well. But he says when touch becomes all or nothing, nothing will eventually win, you know, and so I know it's a good one, right? Great little nugget. Yeah.
- [40:35]
A
So.
- [40:36]
B
So yeah, there were these studies where they instructed people to touch each other more, you know, just affectionately, not sexually. And they found that when couples started doing that, the lower desires partners desire went up, the sexual satisfaction scores improved, the relationship satisfaction scores improved. And what I found really interesting was that this was even for people who didn't value touch. You know, you'll get someone every now and then who's like, I'm just not a touchy feely person, you know, so even for those people, there was a positive benefit.
- [41:10]
A
That's good to know. Yeah. Because you know that the people listening right now, they're like, that's not me. They're like, okay, but even then, just do it anyway. Just do it anyway. I love it, but in a way that feels safe.
- [41:19]
B
Yes.
- [41:20]
A
Not an unwelcome boob grab.
- [41:21]
B
Right? Right.
- [41:22]
A
Thank you so much for coming on. You're on Instagram @doctor Emily. Say it again, I'm going to mess it up. Jamia and emilyjamia.com Anatomy of Desire 5 Secrets to Create Connection and Cultivate Passion is available now. It is sweet and amazing and for sure next level.
- [41:41]
B
Awesome. Dr. Kelly, thank you so much. It's just so easy chatting with you.
- [41:46]
A
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of youf Are Not Broken. If you want to dig deeper with me, sign up for my Adult Sex Education Masterclass where you learn adult things like communication skills, anatomy lessons and desire types and how to talk to your doctor about sexual health concerns. If you want the Adult Sex Education Masterclass for free, join my monthly membership for more in depth exclusive content, more time with yours truly. A private podcast, coaching and educational empowerment. And you can watch my interviews live and get them immediately without advertising. Head over to www.kellycaspersonmd.com for the membership and adult sex ed Masterclass members get the master class for free. This podcast is presented solely for educational, entertainment and informational purposes only. I am a doctor, but not your doctor in this format and all of my platforms and guests including on this podcast are not giving individual medical advice or practicing medicine. See in Consult with your own care team for your individual needs and concerns. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the care and advice of a physician, therapist, or other qualified professional. This podcast does not constitute the practice of medicine, in case you were curious about that and no doctor patient relationship is formed. But I still love you. Using the information on this podcast or any of my platforms is at your own risk. Until next time, Remember, you are not broken.