371. You Could Be Having Better Sex

Summary

Podcast Summary

You Are Not Broken – Episode 371: "You Could Be Having Better Sex"
Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson
Guest: Nicole McNichols
Date: May 17, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode dives into what it truly means to have "better sex," particularly for women in long-term relationships and midlife. Dr. Kelly Casperson and guest Nicole McNichols—a leading sex educator and author of the new book You Could Be Having Better Sex—challenge cultural myths, address the realities of sexual desire, and explore the essential roles of communication, novelty, social expectations, and hormones in women's sexual well-being. The conversation uses humor, relatable metaphors (including an extended 'chicken and tacos' analogy), and science-backed insights to debunk performative, shame-based narratives and empower listeners towards sexual fulfillment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Redefining 'Better Sex' (01:14–03:34)

• "Better sex is connected sex": Nicole emphasizes that authentic connection—not acrobatics or performative routines—makes for better sex. The central thesis of her book is about showing up authentically, understanding and communicating desires, and letting go of performative and shaming cultural scripts.

  “Better sex is connected sex. Meaning, you’re showing up to these experiences authentically… with a growth mindset, knowing that even bad sex can teach us things about how to have better sex.” —Nicole (01:27)

• Common misconceptions about what counts as “better” sex—people think of wild role-play or multiple Olympic positions, but it’s really about communication.

The Communication 'Unsexy Secret' (02:55–04:26)

• Both agree that open communication is the foundation.

  “We just have to effing start talking about sex. And it’s such an unsexy answer to a sexy thing... it’s hot to say what do you want and what don’t you want.” —Kelly (03:16)

• Nicole points out that a huge barrier is that many don’t know what they actually want, in part due to shame around self-exploration and masturbation.

The 'Chicken or Tacos' Metaphor (05:13–07:43)

• The hosts use the metaphor of someone who has only ever eaten chicken being asked what else they want (“I only know chicken!”)—mirroring how many women only know the sexual script they've been given.

• Suggests reversing the question to “what don’t you want?” can help, then ‘reverse-engineering’ what real desires might be.

• Nicole notes that in long-term straight relationships, women often lose their “taste for tacos” (stand-in for sex) faster than men—meaning women crave novelty but aren’t socially permitted to explore.

  “In long-term straight relationships, women actually lose their taste for tacos, metaphorically speaking, faster than men do.” —Nicole (06:22)

• The shame and pressure surrounding women wanting more or different kinds of pleasure is called out—especially when only 18% of women can orgasm from ‘the taco’ (PIV sex).

Orgasm, Performance Pressure, and Shame (07:43–08:35)

• Both warn against overwhelming people with “17 kinds of orgasm” when many are struggling with one—setting up competitive or shame-fueled standards does more harm than good.
• Nicole advocates for focusing on what feels good rather than chasing “K-spots and Z-spots.”

Figuring Out Desire—Personal and Mutual Exploration (08:35–11:51)

• Practical tips include looking back on the best sexual experiences with your partner (even if early in the relationship), not just the physical acts but the context and emotions involved.
• Kelly brings up the challenge when the “best sex” was with another partner; Nicole points out the pitfalls of fantasizing about the “idealized” past or hypothetical partners, urging focusing on actual connection and curiosity in the current relationship.
• Reference to Gottman’s “love maps” and how core sexual fulfillment is rooted in emotional attunement, not just mystery or novelty.

Desire, Use, and the 'Heated Rivalry' Phenomenon (13:34–14:01)

• Discussion transitions into the Hulu series "Heated Rivalry" (a viral romance show), why women love it, and how it exemplifies the longing to be deeply desired, not just used.

  “Women want to be desired and they don’t want to be used. And sometimes that’s a fine line.” —Kelly (13:34)

• Nicole highlights that egalitarian dynamics, equal power, and curiosity are actually the sexiest traits in modern romance (and “Heated Rivalry” demonstrates this).

Power Imbalance and Household Labor (15:57–19:25)

• Nicole cites Terry Van Anders’ heteronormativity theory: Power, socio-cultural roles, and exhaustion are huge factors sabotaging women’s desire.

  “The proportion of household labor that women are doing, even if they're making more money, has doubled.” —Nicole (16:40)

• Both discuss invisible labor, societal double standards, and how being in a constant ‘task mode’ (frontal lobe) is incompatible with the kind of presence and rest (“parasympathetic state”) needed for pleasure and orgasm.

Nervous System Regulation, Pleasure, and the Case for Planned Intimacy (19:25–22:25)

• Nicole: True sexual pleasure relaxes and heals the nervous system—pleasure is not a reward for work, it’s essential for well-being.
• Planning “intimacy dates” (focused, non-sexual bonding and physical affection) is as important as planning sex itself to help shift into a connected, embodied state.

Long-Term Partnerships, Novelty, and Sexual Satisfaction (24:00–27:24)

• Anthropological perspective: The “seven-year itch” may be evolutionarily built in, but intentional effort, open communication, and small doses of novelty sustain desire over decades.
• Reference to David Frederick’s research: Adding even modest novelty—trying a new position, different times of day, or getting a hotel room—once a month is enough for high satisfaction.

  “You don’t need to be having wild, different sex every time. It might be as simple as putting a pillow under your pelvis for a new angle…” —Nicole (24:56)

Communication, Flow State, and the Pleasure Cycle (27:02–28:49)

• Sex can become a “flow state” where the right level of challenge/novelty meets comfort and connection.
• The pleasure cycle has three phases: wanting, liking, and learning. Effective sexual communication isn’t just before sex, but during and after—reflecting and growing together.

The Myth of Spontaneous Desire (28:49–31:08)

• Spontaneous desire often develops during or even after sex—not always before.

  “We need to get rid of this idea that spontaneous sex is the only way to have a great experience because there are multiple pathways in.” —Nicole (31:00)

• Diary studies show that satisfaction is the same for both planned and spontaneous sex.

Young People and Porn: The Modern Sex Ed Problem (32:50–35:12)

• Today's college generation screens porn early (age 12–14) and uses it as de facto sex ed, which is deeply problematic.
• Sex ed is increasingly politically restricted, lacking medical accuracy or inclusivity; young people know less, not more, about real sex, consent, and pleasure.

  “Kids today have worse sex education than we had when we were growing up.” —Nicole (34:56)

Low-Hanging Fruit for Sex Ed: Anatomy and Arousal (35:32–36:58)

• Kelly: "No vulva/vagina owner should put anything in their vagina without being aroused first." This would solve so many issues around pain and desire.
• Nicole: The anatomy of the clitoris wasn't fully mapped until Helen O’Connell’s work in 2005; there’s a need to demystify clitoral erections and break away from penis-centric scripts.

Hormones, Midlife, and Sexual Well-Being (38:30–42:31)

• Nicole shares her personal journey with hormone therapy, discussing the mental, emotional, and sexual flatness she experienced before starting HRT.
• She credits bioidentical hormone therapy (estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone) for transforming her well-being and returning her desire and focus.

  “We can’t have a conversation about female sexual desire without acknowledging the huge role that hormones play in all of this.” —Nicole (42:20)

• Calls for current, evidence-based care as many practitioners are still influenced by outdated fears from the 2002 WHI study.

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Memorable Quotes

• On ‘better sex’:
  “Better sex is connected sex. Meaning, you’re showing up to these experiences authentically…” —Nicole (01:27)

• On the unglamorous truth:
  “We just have to effing start talking about sex. It’s such an unsexy answer to a sexy thing.” —Kelly (03:16)

• Challenging pressure and shame:
  “At a certain point it becomes imprisoning if all of a sudden we have these goals of all different K spots and Z spots... Let’s talk about one orgasm first.” —Kelly (07:43)

• On the ‘power differential’:
  “The power differential has to be brought up daily... it's so not brought up.” —Kelly (15:57)

• On household labor and desire:
  “We have been socialized to think... we should just be so grateful that now we have the opportunity to be Superwoman, when nobody’s really talking about the exhaustion that brings.” —Nicole (18:41)

• On pleasure as necessity:
  “We tend to think we have to work really hard before we deserve sexual pleasure or dessert or any other kind of sweetness in our life. But the reality is that pleasure is critical to our well-being.” —Nicole (20:34)

• On planned vs. spontaneous sex:
  “Planned sex and spontaneous sex—when you look at satisfaction, they're exactly equal.” —Nicole (30:23)

• On the crisis in sex education:
  “Kids today have worse sex education than we had when we were growing up.” —Nicole (34:56)

• On hormones in midlife:
  “We can't have a conversation about female sexual desire without acknowledging the huge important role that hormones play in all of this.” —Nicole (42:20)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:14 | Concept of "better sex"—connected, authentic, not performative | | 03:16 | Communication as the foundation—even if it seems unsexy | | 05:13 | The 'chicken/tacos' metaphor about limited sexual scripts and self-knowledge | | 07:43 | Dangers of pressuring women with endless orgasm goals | | 13:34 | Desire versus being used; why "Heated Rivalry" resonates | | 16:40 | Power dynamics & household labor's effect on female desire | | 19:25 | Importance of nervous system care & pleasure; intimacy dates | | 24:56 | Small, frequent novelty keeps long-term passion alive | | 27:02 | Sex as flow state; novelty doesn’t mean wild reinvention | | 31:00 | Planned vs spontaneous sex—no difference in satisfaction | | 34:56 | College students, porn, and the failure of modern sex ed | | 35:32 | Sex ed 'low hanging fruit': arousal before penetration, full anatomy | | 38:30 | The impact of hormones and Nicole’s own HRT journey | | 42:20 | Integrating hormones and psychology for midlife sexual health |

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Tone, Humor & Style

• Tone: Candid, empowering, irreverent, and affirming; unapologetic about challenging myths.
• Humor: Running food metaphors (“chicken/tacos”), “Heated Rivalry” fangirling, and references to awkward realities (e.g., “female erections,” getting a leg cramp during sex).
• Language: Conversational but packed with science, data, and social critique; zero tolerance for shame.

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For Listeners: This episode is a practical, myth-busting, and uplifting guide to understanding sexual desire, dismantling shame, and building a more satisfying sex life—no matter your age or relationship status. Both beginners and sex nerds will come away with actionable advice, new language, and a reminder: You are definitely not broken.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to youo Are Not Broken, the podcast that challenges everything we've been taught about midlife hormones and sexuality. I'm Dr. Kelly Casperson, board certified urologist, author and a leading voice in women's sexual and hormone health. Enjoy the show.

[B]

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the youe're Not Broken podcast. Today I am with Nicole McNichols and we are going to talk about sex and desire. And basically I'm just hoping to have like a full hour long podcast about heated rivalry. So.

[C]

Oh my God.

[B]

Welcome to the you Are Not Broken podcast.

[C]

You will not get me off that topic if you open that can of worms.

[B]

Let's just make that the biggest can of worms yet. If you don't know, you should soon know about heated rivalry and the women. And the women who love it. Who love it.

[C]

The straight millennial woman, all demographics, who are obsessed.

[B]

Yep, obsessed with heated rivalry. So you're in the middle of the book tour. Where are you on the soul sucking work of book promotion?

[C]

Exact. So the book came out February 3rd, it's been out for a couple weeks. It's been a blast.

[B]

Congratulations. It has a great title, great cover. You could be having better sex.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Are people like, really, could you be having better? Like, are people challenging your book title?

[C]

There's two questions really that come from the book title, right? And the first is because a lot of people who are interested in this topic are in long term relationships and are interested in how do you keep the spark alive?

[B]

Heated rivalry.

[C]

Heated rivalry, exactly. Dress up like a hockey player. But there's also just this question of what is better sex. Right? Because I mean, that's really the premise of it. And we live in a world where there's so many ideas around performative sex that everyone wants to kind of know. Like, well, does better sex mean that it has to be 8 million style Olympic positions and that you need to be dressing up and you know, role play every night and that you there need to be chains and whips. I have chapters on all of that in my book, if that's what you're interested in. But the central thesis of this book is that better sex is connected sex. Meaning you're showing up to these experiences authentically. You're tied into your own desires, you're understanding your own pleasure cycle. You're able to communicate exactly what it is that you want. And you're able to say, look, there's so many messages about incredible shame and discomfort and stigma around this topic that you're able to say, no, I'm gonna reject that. I'm gonna reject all these scripts that I'm seeing in porn or Bridgerton or whatever else it is that's giving you this standard in your head of what sex and bodies are supposed to look like. And you're showing up for it authentically, right? With a growth mindset, knowing that even bad sex can teach us things about how to have better sex. So I love it.

[B]

I'm like, this is like, this is what this podcast is like 101, when you get to the basics. Because I, I think like, when you're like, it's about communication. And I'm, I'm like, a lot. I'm like, dude, we just have to effing start talking about sex. We just have to start talking about sex. And it's like, it's such an unsexy answer to a sexy thing that people are kind of like, wa, wa, wa, Communication.

[C]

But you're like, yeah, like, don't knock

[B]

it till you try it, man.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

It's. It's what all every, like, it's hot of like, what do you want? What don't you want? When do you want it? What does it mean to you? What does it mean to me?

[A]

What am I good at?

[B]

What are you good at?

[C]

Yes. And then doing the work beforehand to know that when we're looking at our level of desire, there are all those forms of communication that happen in our relationships with our partner where we're communicating what we want. But so often a major challenge we face is not knowing what we want to begin with, right? Not understanding our bodies. Especially, Especially women who have been shamed about masturbation or any kind of, you know, using a sex toy to figure out what feels good and how you like to be touched. Because the reality is we're all different, Kelly. Right? Like, we all have slightly different sizes and shapes and positioning of anatomy. And then so much of desire is into the types of emotional states that we like to bring to sex, whether it's nurturance or excitement and adventure. You know, what is it that we wanna feel in that sexual experience?

[B]

Yeah, how do you wanna feel?

[C]

How do you wanna feel? Exactly. So I think a lot of times we might fall into this trap of thinking, okay, sex has died. I must not be attracted to my partner anymore. And it's first recognizing. Maybe I've stopped feeling attracted to myself. And how can I get myself back to a place where I feel strong, I feel excited about things in my life, I feel confident, I feel in touch with my body, I feel like pleasure isn't something that's just surpr. Superfluous or a treat, but that really is my birthright and that it is important both to my own psychological, mental and physical wellbeing, but also to my relationship, also to my experiences with other people.

[B]

I love it. I love it. I think it's very hard, especially for women, to people be like, well, what do you want? I love the metaphor of like, if you were just at like a restaurant that only served chicken, right? Your whole life there was just chicken. And then people were like, but what do you actually want? You could have whatever you want. And you're like, I don't know, I only know chicken. Right? Like, it's actually like a very daunting question to be like, I know you don't know anything besides chicken, but what do you want? I find, like, I want your tips because I find reversing it to be like, what don't you want? And you reverse engineer that of like, I don't want to be cold, I don't want to be underappreciated. I don't want to only have you have an orgasm, right? Because then you can be like, okay, so what you want is orgasmic equality or warmth, connection, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So how do you help people with the what do you want question when they've only seen chicken in Hollywood films, right?

[C]

Exactly. Or if they've been eating tacos and they love tacos, but nobody wants to have tacos every single fucking night for dinner, right?

[B]

But they might be married to somebody who loves tacos. They're like, tacos till I die. Just loved love tacos.

[C]

And what a lot of people don't realize is that in long term straight relationships, women actually lose their taste for tacos, metaphorically speaking, faster than men do. In other words, there's more novelty plays more of a role in the maintenance of sexual desire for women in straight relationships than men. So. And yet we have not been given the permission to explore what else we want to try besides the chicken.

[B]

And women have been punished for wanting something other than tacos because we've normalized tacos. We're like, we've got Hollywood movies about tacos, we've got top 10 country hits about tacos. We've got a man saying, tacos are fine, honey, I'm fine with tacos. Why aren't you fine with tacos? So she feels broken for not desiring tacos.

[C]

Exactly. Or thinking that she should be having multiple orgasms to tacos when only 18% of women can orgasm from a fucking taco.

[B]

I love how long we've kept this going. Now we have now officially talked about tacos more than heated rivalry. But I gave a talk, like years ago with this amazing woman who was all about tantra. And she was like, I'm going to tell women about the 17 different ways to have an orgasm. And I'm like, please don't, though. They can't have one orgasm right now. And if you tell them there's 17 that they're missing, there's like a shame, competitive. Check the box. And I'm just like, let's talk about one orgasm first.

[C]

I literally talk about that right in the beginning of my book because on the one hand, we are, you know, making progress in talking about the importance of female pleasure and explaining that there's different ways we can experience pleasure. But at a certain point it becomes imprisoning if all of a sudden we have these goals of all different K spots and Z spots and B spots. But I wanna go back to this really interesting question that you raised about, okay, so how do we figure out what it is that we want? Right? And yes, absolutely. Figuring out, okay, I don't like it when you initiate sex by grabbing my boobs. I don't like it when I'm cold. Right. I immediately thought of that study where women who are wearing socks in the MRI were more likely to orgasm than women not wearing socks. Being coz is important.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I think it comes down to, like, safety at the end of the day with that one.

[C]

Well, that's true. That's true. And then also it's, you know, maybe having sex late at night after. You know, if you've got young kids and you're just exhausted and touched out is not the right time of day. So maybe you don't like that. But what's equally important, I think, and what I often advise people to do, is with your partner, think about the absolute best sex that you've ever had. Right? And this can be a fun conversation to have with your partner with your clothes on, not in a place where you're feeling vulnerable, but just think back about what those positive experiences were. What did you do? How were you feeling? What was the emotional state like? Maybe you were on vacation and in a different place. Maybe you were not feeling stressed out and had had a chance to unwind during that day and close your laptop or, you know, earlier or take a bath. Maybe it was that you had just had a conversation with your partner about things that you were really interested in and things that you were sort of your hopes and dreams and what your goals were. Maybe it was just that you were laughing and it had a moment where you were play wrestling on the bed and it was just playful and whimsical. Right. But I think that if we can, you know, end. Or maybe it was that amazing thing that they did with their tongue.

[B]

But what if it was with a different partner a long time ago? There are people like, I don't wanna talk about that. Cause what if it wasn't with my current partner?

[C]

I know it's amazing sex with your current partner because that's what you're building on, Right? And that is an important clarification. Because if you're thinking about, first of all, the best sex you had with a different partner, we are so skilled at building up in our mind.

[B]

You've got wiener syndrome. Remember when I was 17 and everything was perfect and they were like. But things weren't perfect when you were 17.

[C]

You were actually a hot mess. Right, Exactly. It was a disaster. Yeah. And it's, you know, what we have. And I mean, this is another reason why I think that this world of dating has just really messed with people. Because if you're thinking about all of these dates and people that you're interacting with through a dating app who you have very little information. The human brain is extremely skilled at filling in the blanks. And what do we do? We fill in the blanks of people we don't know that well, but who we might be a little excited about with every trait that we, we can think of that comprises our list of what the ideal partner is. And so don't compare the sex that you have in front of you that is real with the real person with all of their amazing, incredible faults and flaws the way all humans have. Don't compare that with the sex that you are having with that other person, because that's not real. You're coloring it in a way that it wasn't. So think about, right? Maybe it was early on in the relationship. Maybe it had to do with just feeling really, really seen. The conversations I've had, you know, over the years with the Gottmans is just this idea that we tend to think that in order to have hot sex, we need to have all of this mystery and desire. No, we need to have love maps.

[A]

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[C]

We need to be curious about what the other person is interested in, what they want, how they're feeling. You know, if your partner is making bids for connection and is interested in. You know, I got really. I'm sort of a nerd. So a few months ago, I got really excited when they discovered that there were those molecules on some other planet that could signal life. My husband, I don't know that he cares that much about that, but he saw I was excited, so he got excited. And that helped me feel turned on. Right. We don't think these things that exist outside the sexual domain play into our sex life, but they do. Right. Our sense of desire, it's not just about the positions and the places. It's feeling really seen and feeling emotionally connected with our partner and figuring out, how do I get to a place where I could experience that?

[B]

I see this a lot and I feel like it's not talked about very much is again, stereotypically because we stereotype in these sort of conversations. But women want to be desired and they don't want to be used. And sometimes that's a fine line.

[C]

Yep, exactly. Which actually is kind of the perfect segue into heated rivalry. Look at that show.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I mean, I heard about that show literally the second it dropped because my students came to me and said, oh my God, you have to see this. We need to know what you think. And so I was sort of expecting it to be nonstop sex. But if you actually watch the show. Yeah. I mean, there are some really hot sex scenes. But what that show is really about is what you just mentioned, that sense of wanting to be desired. Right. It's about that longing that we see that is just such an incredible. But the other thing you mentioned that's so important too is that element of wanting to feel that sense of Desire, but not wanting to feel used, not wanting to feel like you're taken for granted. Which is another reason that I think heated rivalry has taken off. Because we're so used to seeing these love stories between the stereotypical man who's withholding and can't express his emotions and is closed off and the woman who's desiring him and is a motive and wants sort of that unequal power dynamic. Whereas in heated rivalry you have two really hot guys who are equally successful in their careers, equally rich. There's this level of egalitarianism between it, which actually is really sexy. Because when you have equal power, when both people are really interested in each other, are really curious about each other, then that's gonna prevent one person from being felt like they're just being used. Right. I mean, not to get crass about this, but if you go into a sexual experience and it's just about what one person wants, what one person feels, what one person's turn ons are, it's really easy for the other partner to start feeling like they're just a masturbatory sleep. I mean, sorry for that image, but that's what sex becomes reduced to when we have those really unequal power differentials.

[B]

I think the power differential is not brought up. I'm to the point where I'm like, the power differential has to be brought up daily at this point because it's so not brought up. And you know, if you look at Terry Van Anders work, the heteronormative theory

[C]

of her I taught, I have a shrine in my heart.

[B]

You know, she was on my podcast years ago.

[C]

She was. I need to write her. I write all about her work in my book. I also love her book on sexual configurations theory.

[B]

You're like, and now we're gonna nerd.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And now we're gonna nerd back.

[C]

Yeah. Ex. But she actually gave, read my manuscript and gave some feedback. I mean I literally worship her so much. But her heteronormative theory of sexual desire in women, groundbreaking.

[B]

And we need to talk about it every single day.

[C]

Yes, exactly. We need to talk about it every single day. Kristin Mark has also done some really brilliant work in this area. Looking again at what are not just the factors that are happening in terms of communication, but also just the socio cultural factors, like the fact that as Van Anders points out, there is so much exhaustion being experienced by women in midlife today. Because when you look demographically, yes, women are out earning men, their careers are advancing at a faster pace, they're being Educated at a faster rate. I mean, do you know how hard it is to get into college nowadays? If you're a woman, it's actually you're being held to an entirely different standard. But the reality is, is at the same time, the proportion of household labor that women are doing, even if they're making more money, has doubled. And it's doubled. And it's almost like I've wondered why that is. And we can only speculate, but I mean, part of me wonders, do we feel the need to double the amount of household labor that we're doing so that we're not making our male husband feel emasculated by the fact that we're out earning him? I don't know what it is.

[B]

I think it's so many different layers. One layer that I think is society telling women, your standard for a house is different. Like a dude's, like, I'm fine with this shit here. Right. But it's like, look at every single cleaning product, marketing a woman's standard for what okay is. Is different than what a man's standard for what okay is. It is.

[C]

And especially. Yes. And when you look at social media and all these influencers of these, you know, mom influencers and house influencers, and

[B]

by the way, I just redid my kitchen by myself.

[C]

Right, right, exactly.

[B]

It does.

[C]

I did it myself. Yeah, exactly. That's insane.

[B]

And don't forget to have spontaneous sexual desire though, for your partner who has different standards about how a house should be run because he's not socialized to be Superman.

[C]

Exactly. And that's the problem, is that we have been socialized to think that it is. We should just be so grateful that now we have the opportunity to be Superwoman when nobody's really talking about the exhaustion that that brings with it.

[B]

Well, and I think the other thing, you know, tying spontaneous sexual desire is like the exhaustion and the sympathetic nervous system required to go, go, go, go, go is like the frontal lobe of high functioning strategic planning is very different than the brain, which is rest, digest, orgasm, pleasure, present moment, parasympathetic. Right. And so we have to shift nervous system states to have good sex.

[C]

And that's why, you know, I really, when you look at the literature, and yes, it does suggest, and that is very something that is. Comes up again and again as a recommendation among sex therapists. But we can't just expect ourselves to be unloading the dishwasher at 8pm at night and hop into bed and think that we're just going to get turned on and have multiple orgasms.

[B]

I recommend a two heated rivalry episode.

[C]

At least. At least, dude.

[B]

Heated rivalry. I was just texting girlfriends. It's Valium, but better because it promotes sexual function instead of dysfunction. And I mean, it's slightly addictive, but it soothes your nervous system for so many women. Like you're like, I need to just chill out and watch you to rivalry real quick.

[C]

Yes, exactly. And also, you know, even if we look at other shows, like, seems on the surface like it is a completely different storyline, which it is. But the obsession with the Summer I Turn Pretty, which again, was not just a teenager show. Older women were watching that too and getting very drawn up in the love story. It's almost just the inherent optimism that it brings. Right. And so again, again, it's that lightness.

[B]

There's a lightness to it which is regulating your nervous system.

[C]

Yes. Which comes back to the importance of pleasure. Right. Because pleasure regulates your nervous system. We tend to think like, we have to like work really, really hard before we deserve sexual pleasure or dessert or any other kind of sweetness in our life. But the reality is that that pleasure is critical to our well being. It's critical to our ability to relax, sit within our bodies, feel embodied and yes, the mood for sex. And that's why, you know, I think, you know, back to this idea of planning sex. It can't just be planning the physical act of sex. Put something called an intimacy date on your calendar, right. Put a plan where you're not going to just expect yourself to go from that worker productivity mental state into this embodied, connected central nervous system state. You need to be touching your partner, engaging in non sexual touch, cuddling, talking,

[B]

just enjoying your partner in a non sexual way. Instead of like we run a household together and we try to have sex sometimes.

[C]

Right, Exactly. Like it's just something where it's, you know, you're a team, which is great, but then just expecting that your sex life is just gonna be one of those obligatory things that comes into your teamwork together. No. Right. Your sex life, your erotic life needs to be a place that you travel with, with your partner and get to experience all of these different emotional states and become and act out different people in your mind. Whether, you know, whether we're talking about acting out terms of role play or just exposing sides of yourself that are just unique to what you show your partner. Right. And that represent that land that you get to escape to. But we can't expect ourselves to go from folding the laundry to immediately, you know, to nursing the kids to sleep and then immediately into bed doing that. It's not going to happen.

[B]

Planning a trip to go see the in laws and then being like I hey, I don't desire, I don't spontaneously desire sex anymore.

[C]

No, I don't think there's anything that makes me more dry than a trip

[B]

to my I really this stat and I have not fact checked myself on this in a while but a stat was like for eons of human marriages. The average marriage lasted seven years before somebody died.

[A]

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[C]

Wow.

[B]

Because average life expectancy was like 47. And so here we are 25 years into a marriage and we're like, why don't we have spontaneous sexual desire anymore? And you're like, this is brand new stuff, people. Brand new stuff. We're trying to figure out it is.

[C]

And you know, if you look at anthropological evidence, we're meant to kind of have this strong connection for maybe the first couple of years and then it dies out. And why is that? You know, anthropologists think maybe it's because if you think about the typical lifestyle of a relationship in procreation, the couple has sex, they have a child. By the time it's two years old, that's when it can walk and the mother doesn't have to be carrying it and she's not as vulnerable. What's the evolutionary Advantage of that point, it's to find another mate and to increase biological diversity and increase the diversity in the gene pool so you have sex with somebody else. But that doesn't mean, right, that we can't create that novelty in long term relationships. Right. And you know, I mean, I've been married for 22 years and at the risk of TMI, I will say that my sex life is better than ever, but it's because I gave it the attention that it needs. And we found ways to create novelty and to continue understanding each other and to address the household labor in ways that make both of us feel equal and where we've designed our lives so that both of us feel like we have our dreams that are being supported because that's what's really critical. But I do think, you know, specifically, you know, when you look at, you know, relation, long term couples and you look at, okay, if we interview, you know, if we look at surveys. David Frederick did, you know, beautiful work on this, looking at thousands and thousands of couples and saying, okay, what are the secrets of the ones that report the highest levels of sexual satisfaction? It's things they do inside and outside the bedroom. They're having oral sex because back to our taco metaphor, they're finding that there's better ways to have an orgasm for most women than penetrative sex. So in other words, just correlates with the fact that they're trying new things, they're engaging in novelty. But one of the beauties of this research is that when he looks at this graph of how much novelty is needed for those high levels of sexual satisfaction, it kind of plateaus at about 12 times a year, which is like once a month. Meaning you don't need to be having wild, different sex every single time to have that novelty. It might be as simple as trying something like lifted missionary and practice putting a pillow underneath the woman's pelvis to increase different types of angles that stimulate the clitoris from the, you know, internally. It could be trying out, you know, different types of sensation play. It could be having sex at a different time of day. It could be getting a hotel room in the same city that you live in. Because when you had that conversation about the sex, best sex you've ever had, it turned out it was while you were on vacation. So go recreate that, right? Put that effort into it.

[B]

I love, love that. I think it also, it correlates with the research looking at flow state and like, how bringing in Emily Anatomy of Desire book of like, what actually flow state is which sex can become flow state. But if you look at the level of challenge, AKA novelty, like what's. It's. It's actually a very small amount, right? Like, because people are like, oh, and then we need to hang by the rafters and have a swing.

[C]

You don't. You can, you absolutely can. But the key is you don't want to feel like you need to become a completely different person, right? In other words, you want to be able to explore aspects of fantasies and emotions that you only show your partner, but you don't need to be having performative types of sex that just don't feel right to you. Right. That feel, you know, and, and again, yeah, like back to that flow state. It's about pushing that challenge so that it's a little bit of novelty, right? And it's maybe, you know, maybe it's a little bit of spanking, maybe it's a little bit of having your hands pinned above your head in a very consensual, pre discussed way. But yet that novelty is maintained in a continuous way. It's also, you know, back to this very idea you mentioned at the beginning, the communication. Understanding that it's not just the communication that's happening at one point, like during the sexual experience, it's looking at communication that's happening before, during and after the sexual experience. Because the reality is that the pleasure cycle we know at a neurological level is not just occurring at the moment we're having the orgasm or biting into the chocolate chip cookie or whatever it is that's bringing pleasure. There's a wanting stage, a liking stage, and a learning stage. And we need to be communicating during all three phases of that pleasure cycle if we want to be optimizing the experiences that we're having.

[B]

I think, you know, in talking about spontaneous desire, again, everybody thinks that the spontaneous desire for sex happens before sex and really like it can actually happen during sex. And oftentimes and it's not talked about, it happens, it happens after sex. You're like, that was so good. I always forget, I always forget how good that is. Remind me we should do that more often. That was so good.

[C]

Couples tell me all the time, why aren't we, why don't we do this more often? Exactly, let's do this again tomorrow. Yeah. Goes back to this fascinating thing about human beings, which is that behavior and thoughts are a two way street meaning sometimes, you know, and look, conversations are around consent, which have been critically important, have had a little bit of this unintended consequence of, I think, making a Lot of women feel like if they aren't totally in the mood and have that spontaneous desire right from the beginning, that they shouldn't even try to have a sexual experience. It gets slippery. It gets very slippery. But the reality is that sometimes that pathway from desire to arousal to physiological response is quite circular and meaning your body needs to be cuddled up against your partner. You need to be slowly touching, slowly exploring. And you might find that it's only after that touching initiates that your body begins to feel warmed up. And then suddenly your body thinks, oh, this. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

[B]

Okay, I remember. I remember this.

[C]

This feels amazing. One of my favorite pieces of data shows that although people in long term relationships, when you survey them at the beginning, which do you think is more satisfying? Planned sex or spontaneous sex? Everyone's like, oh, well, obviously spontaneous sex. When you ask them to keep daily diary studies and rate how satisfying the sexual experience was, they're exactly equal. The people who are reporting that it was planned, that they went into the experience not totally knowing if they wanted it, but gave it a try, got turned on, ended up having lots of orgasms. People say that those experiences were just as satisfying. So, yeah, we need to get rid of this idea that spontaneous sex is the only way to have a great experience because there are multiple pathways in.

[B]

I love it. I love it so much. So you, you teach young people, college age people, and, you know, here we are, the Gen Xers, thinking like, oh, young people have it so easy now. They have so much access to everything. They're fine. And I'm like, they're not fine.

[C]

They are so not fine.

[B]

They are not fine at all. So can you give us some insight into. Into like college brains right now and sex?

[D]

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[C]

Quince.com notbroken so many people our age want to especially understand this because we have kids, right, who are going to be this age or we're working with kids that are this age. So the dynamics of the sex and dating lives of people and their college age students today, you know, Gen Z is extremely different than the challenges that we're dealing with. You know, first of all, this is a generation that grew up mostly learning about sex from porn. When, you know, I poll students in my class about their porn use habits, I don't even bother asking them, have you ever seen porn? The question is, how often do you watch it, right? And how early did you start watching it? And the benefit of having such a large class is that what I find polling my own students largely maps onto what we see with nationally representative data, which is that they're all kind of starting to watch it at a somewhat regular frequency around age 13, 14. There's something I know this figure of 11 gets tossed around a lot. I think that number is more when they maybe stumble upon it accidentally, maybe see it one time at a friend's house. But when they start actively going on to Pornhub and looking for it is around 12 to 14. You know, the issue is, you know, we can look at policy that's popping up into place. For example, in Washington state, there's, you know, laws in the legislator right now that are being considered to make it so that you have to present an ID before you're allowed to go on to something like pornhub. You know, of course the danger with that is that then you would limit access to any kind of sex education just because the definition of porn is so fuzzy. But anyway, going back to this, kids today have worse sex education than we had when we were growing up. There's actually more bills coming out now that are limiting access to medically accurate, comprehensive education. That includes things about LGBTQIA identities that is limited in terms of, of its, you know, explanation of, you know, Even just how the mechanics of sex work. It's really poor.

[B]

Sex education, it's pretty bad. Like, medical accuracy is not required in the majority of states.

[C]

Can you imagine if we allowed history classes to exist that weren't required to be historically, historically accurate? Just make it up.

[B]

Just make it up and spend two hours talking about something.

[C]

Or if we show people images of sex or bodies, that it's going to make them all of a sudden want to go out and have. Tons and tons of kids are going to be interested in sex no matter what we do. So why don't we just give them the information so they can.

[B]

We need adults. We need adults to help.

[C]

Yes, we do.

[B]

Just like anything else.

[D]

What I.

[B]

This is what if I got my way. And because now I want to hear your opinion too, but if I got my way, I want no vulva vagina owner to ever put anything in their vagina without being aroused first. I feel like, if I can. To me, I'm like, that's the lowest hanging fruit. If I can just, if I can just instill that your pelvis is like, is this a tampon? Like, what is this? Like, you must be like, we don't talk about arousal at all. And if you look at the stats on pain, pain, desire, you're never going to want something that hurts. Seeing that pelvises have blood flow and erections and arousal, I'm like, that would go so far as far as helping desire and pain and all that stuff. That's what I was like, that's what I was.

[C]

We didn't even map the full anatomy of the clitoris until Helen O' Connell in 2005. I mean, the idea that it actually has these internal structures.

[B]

I was joking last week. I was like, I just need to start talking about female erections more. Because people look at you like you have two heads when you say female erection.

[C]

They do, but it is, I mean, from the embryonic tissue, the clitoris is coming from the exact same. All of our genitals are arising from the exact same tissue. The head of the clitoris comes from the same tissue as the head of the penis. The inner labia just fused to get. Fused together to form a penis. Yeah, I mean, to form a shaft.

[B]

What would you. If you had your low hanging fruit for your college classes? What are you like, if they just knew this, we'd be in a better place.

[C]

Honestly, I think anatomy is a big part of it, but I think if they understood that what they're seeing in porn is not real sex and that

[B]

it is should be like a disclaimer at the beginning. Like, there's a director and a sound guy and makeup artists, and guess what's being cut.

[C]

Like, the communication, the consent, the failures. Like, when it doesn't go wrong. When he loses his erection. Right. When you know that the times when

[B]

she gets a hamstring cramp.

[C]

Exactly. When she's like, not, you know, or. And do you really think she's having an orgasm from this jackhammering that's going on for an hour that you're watching. Right. So please don't jackhammer. So, you know, and yet, even though.

[B]

When are we taking this show on stage, Nicole?

[C]

Right. I know we need to go on tour. I'm so ready, dude.

[B]

But before, when we have to wrap up. But I need people to. Because we shared before you came on your journey with midlife hormone therapy. So many people think that women's sexual health is just psychological. Like, it's just, you just need to have better thoughts about sex or you just need to schedule it, blah, blah. But it's like when the hormones exit, when we live longer than our ovary hormone production, things happen. And sex is something that changes, whether it's just pelvic dryness or desire or the brain or just focusing or being able to get sleep. Right. Like, I think we can't talk about sex in midlife without talking about hormones. So can you quick just share your journey on that before we wrap?

[C]

Couldn't agree more. And just to back that up, yes, my own personal journey is. Let's go back to about five years ago. I was feeling a little bit stuck in life in general, but I was also moody. I was flying off the handle at my kids, really focus. I, you know, didn't. Had sort of lost my desire for sex, which, as a human sexuality professor, made me feel like this huge imposter, as you can imagine. And then, you know, I started to kind of think, like, maybe it isn't normal to feel like this. And then, I'm not making this up. But I, you know, I had started an Instagram account to try to, you know, build up sort of all these educational videos that I wanted to do. And one of these accounts that I found was Kelly Casperson. Have you heard of her? You should totally follow her. You should totally follow her. And I was like, oh, my God, hormone replacement therapy. And then I started hearing about more conversations about this. And I had a friend who took me aside. She's a couple years older and kind of like a big sister and had found. Because you know, the thing is Kelly, a lot of these OB GYNs, a lot of them do and are aware of the most recent research, but a lot of them are still scared shitless of that 2002 study that told us all that it was dangerous.

[D]

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[A]

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[D]

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[C]

And so sometimes you really do need to seek out somebody who has a lot of knowledge and is really up to date on the most recent research. So she did that. She connected me to a health practitioner here in Seattle. Shout out to Dr. Dr. Kate Kass and yay. And yeah, I'm on oral estrogen, oral progesterone and I have a testosterone palette and it has changed my life. I don't think that I would have been able to write a book and build my career to the level that it is now and have the focus to build a platform and speak my truth if I hadn't had access. And yes, all of the psychological factors and the unpacking of the socio cultural dynamics that make it exhausting to be a woman today in general are very important. But we can't have a conversation about female sexual desire without acknowledging the huge important role that hormones play in all of this. And so my message to any woman in midlife who is struggling with desire is yes, focus on those psychological factors. Think about what you want, what drives you, what might be getting in the way of your ability to feel present and mindful during sex, whether it's body image or. But also do this in conjunction with the hormone element of it. Because we all need to be having better sex and we can't do that if our hormones aren't balanced. I couldn't agree more. Yes, totally.

[B]

And like it's all all part of it, which makes it such a fascinating topic. I think I could talk to you for hours and I'm gonna manifest me coming to be a guest lecturer in your class. Cause I really, really wanna talk. I wanna talk to the college kids.

[C]

That would be amazing. Amazing.

[B]

Oh, let's have a conversation with them. It'll be very good. We'll talk about female erections.

[C]

Please. I would love it.

[B]

That'd be so good. Well, everybody follow her. You're amazing on Instagram. I love your content. I am sure I owe you some collabs at this point.

[C]

For sure. I love it. And go buy my book.

[B]

Y Having Better Sex is just out right now. It's available and it'll teach you many things that you never learned. Because sex ed is shitty.

[C]

Exactly. Exactly.

[B]

Awesome.

[C]

Thank you, Kelly. It's amazing.

[A]

If you found this episode funny, helpful, insightful, please take a moment to follow, rate and share the youe Are Not Broken podcast with someone who might need this conversation. Conversation too. That support is how this information reaches more people. And thank you for courses, books and my monthly membership and the Casperson clinic information, visit KellyCaspersonMD.com this podcast and all content from Dr. Kelly Casperson is intended for educational and informational purposes only and this is not a substitute for individual medical coaching or psychological advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the guidance of your qualified healthcare professional with any questions you may have regarding your health. Never disregard or delay medical advice because of something you've heard on this or other podcasts. Thanks for being here. And remember, you are not broken.