376. Heated Rivalry - Episode 2 — Four Urologists Walk Into a Hockey Romance

Summary

You Are Not Broken — Episode 376

Heated Rivalry, Episode 2: Four Urologists Walk Into a Hockey Romance

Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson, MD
Guests: Rachel, Josh, Dr. Gonzalez, Ashley
Air Date: June 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This raucous and insightful episode continues the group’s “Heated Rivalry” recaps, with four urologists dissecting the second episode of the hit hockey romance series. The conversation is a blend of sex-ed mythbusting, personal anecdotes, professional knowledge, and sharp, often hilarious, commentary on queer sexuality, romance tropes, and how women relate to erotica in the midlife context. The group takes a deep dive into themes of sexual communication, desire, LGBTQ+ sex ed, straight men's reluctance to engage with queer media, and what makes "Heated Rivalry" so wildly appealing to women.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Heated Rivalry Characters and Tropes (00:17–03:12)

• The group jokes about the likely post-hockey fates of the male leads, riffing on hockey culture stereotypes (realtors, coaching, living vicariously through kids).
• Discussion about the "last name" culture in hockey and medicine, with tangents about residency and professional hierarchies.

“He's just going to talk about how he used to play hockey for the rest of his life.” — Dr. Gonzalez (00:36)

2. Queer Sex Ed, STI Prevention, and Prep (03:38–05:54)

• The panel details the evolution of HIV prevention (PrEP), condom use in gay culture, and the realities of STI transmission. They note that the prevalence of condomless sex increased with the rise of PrEP, leading to more cases of other STIs.

“With the advent of PrEP, there’s now this new thing where people want to be ejaculated inside of them… now it’s swung the opposite way.” — Dr. Gonzalez (05:19)

• Straight women’s experiences and misconceptions around anal sex are compared to gay men’s realities, including anecdotes from medical practice and cultural attitudes toward preparation and hygiene.

3. Anatomy, Sexual Technique, and Realism in Media (13:41–17:37)

• Detailed discussion on the mechanics of anal sex (positions, sphincter resistance, erection requirements, cleaning, barriers).
• Addressed misconceptions about gay sex (e.g., face-to-face missionary anal sex, hands-free orgasms via prostate stimulation).
• The rarity of hands-free orgasm from prostate stimulation is emphasized, demystifying what’s depicted in the show.

“In the real world, that's not very common… it's seen as out of this world because as a man, you can't imagine being so aroused through prostate stimulation that you're able to get an erection and ejaculate without touching yourself at all.” — Dr. Gonzalez (16:46)

4. Romance, Intimacy, and Representation (20:06–23:41)

• Commentary on the female characters in "Heated Rivalry," especially Svetlana, celebrating her complexity and how she subverts the “other woman” trope.
• The role of women as “ride or dies” and supporters in these queer love stories is praised.

“She’s the perfect woman… she even doesn’t care that he’s gay. She sells fancy cars, he loves fancy cars.” — Rachel (25:11)

5. Male Objectification, Affection, and Relationship Quirks (26:58–28:43)

• The panel delights in the show’s reversal of the usual male gaze: men’s bodies are lovingly shot, undressed, and oiled for viewer pleasure.
• Highlight on a scene where Ilya is charmed watching Shane fold his clothes—a celebration of loving someone’s quirks.

“The person that you are meant to be with loves you for your weird quirks… and the more you're you and the more they like you, the more it's a good fit.” — Rachel (28:09)

6. Sexual Education for Listeners: Timing, Communication, Genital “Mismatch” (29:42–36:42)

• The group unpacks the importance of sexual communication, especially in queer contexts where assumptions can’t be made.
• "Genital mismatch" is discussed: unrealistic or mismatched anatomy isn’t personal failure; it’s biology.
• Data on average male ejaculatory latency time: 5.4–7 minutes in the US; for women to orgasm from penetration, about 13–14 minutes, reinforcing the lack of anatomical “alignment” for orgasmic timing.

“Not everything matches up all the time.” — Josh (12:13)

7. Scripts, Dirty Talk, and Power Dynamics in Sex (34:51–37:37)

• Comparison of sexual “scripts” in straight vs. queer sex—more communication needed (who’s topping, safety, etc.).
• Dirty talk in "Heated Rivalry" is praised for being realistic and hot, highlighting how two men shift the power dynamic and remove the potential for misogyny.

“You can be filthy, you could be nasty, and not worry about: are you denigrating that person?” — Dr. Gonzalez (36:06)

8. Women’s Fascination with Queer Romance; Erotica as Community (38:24–51:55)

• The panel theorizes on why women are obsessed with "Heated Rivalry": safety, equal power dynamics, emotional connection, novelty, and shared community.
• Observations on societal double standards: women are allowed to find women with women erotic, but straight men often fear being turned on by gay male love scenes. The group challenges this and encourages broader curiosity.

“Most straight men want to be pegged, let’s be honest. Like, that is a thing… if men weren’t socialized to be scared to watch this and experience this with intrigue, they would see a man getting his prostate stimulated… and find that extraordinarily erotic.” — Ashley (41:16)

9. Heated Rivalry as Sex Education and the Role of Physicians (47:05–50:58)

• Rachel prescribes the show to her patients as a safe way to explore desire, break taboos, and validate their interest, contrasting it with recommending “just watch porn,” which lacks context and support.

“Giving Heated Rivalry as sort of a prescription—I am not going to apologize for that. I think it’s so fun.” — Rachel (50:39)

• Illustrative clinical anecdote: A veteran female patient felt shame for liking gay porn; validation from a doctor made a profound difference for her self-acceptance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|--------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:19 | Dr. Gonzalez | “Now it's sort of swung the opposite way where people… enjoy that and seek that out as part of the sexual experience.” | | 13:41 | Rachel | “The fact that they are face to face having sex… every straight woman…is sitting there saying: how is that anatomy happening?” | | 16:46 | Dr. Gonzalez | “As a man, you can't imagine being able to be so aroused through prostate stimulation that you're able to get an erection and ejaculate without touching yourself at all.” | | 28:09 | Rachel | “The person that you are meant to be with loves you for your weird quirks… don't hide them, because your human is meant to like those.” | | 36:06 | Dr. Gonzalez | “There's less concern over language being degrading… you could be filthy, you could be nasty, and not worry about like: are you denigrating that person?” | | 41:16 | Ashley | “Most straight men want to be pegged… if men weren't socialized to be so scared to watch this… they would find that extraordinarily erotic.” | | 50:39 | Rachel | “Giving Heated Rivalry as sort of a prescription—I am not going to apologize for that. I think it's so fun.” |

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Timeline & Segment Highlights

• 00:17–03:12: Banter about post-hockey careers, last name culture in hockey/medicine
• 03:38–05:54: Role of PrEP, changing attitudes to condom use, STI education
• 07:59–11:18: Preparation for anal sex (or lack thereof!) in straight/gay cultures; the realities, the mess, and the myth-busting
• 13:41–16:46: Anal sex mechanics, "hands-free" prostate orgasm mythbusting
• 26:58–28:43: Representation of male bodies; objectification and intimacy through quirks
• 29:42–33:32: Ejaculatory latency time, genital mismatch, the importance of talking about what’s “normal”
• 34:51–37:37: Sexual scripts and dirty talk; why gay sex is better communicated
• 38:24–47:05: Women’s obsession with the series; objectification, safety, and what straight men could learn
• 47:05–50:58: “Prescribing” Heated Rivalry to patients as sex ed; destigmatizing desires
• 53:11–54:15: The show's global popularity; repeated viewing as a measure of impact
• 55:38–56:39: Intimacy, kissing as emotional connection, and the episode’s final emotional beat (“We didn’t even kiss.”)

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Tone and Language

The panel’s tone is playful, candid, and irreverent but grounded in sex-positive expertise. Their willingness to get explicit, to joke, and to share personal and clinical stories encourages openness and destigmatization for listeners—especially for women exploring their own sexuality and curiosity.

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For Listeners: Takeaways

• You are not broken: Anatomy, libido, orgasm, and sexual interests vary widely. Curiosity, communication, and validation are keys to a joyful sex life.
• Safe exploration: Shows like "Heated Rivalry" can create a space for community, conversation, and self-understanding that traditional porn or shamed sexuality cannot.
• Communication counts: “Scripts” for pleasure—especially in queer sex—rely on directness and consent, offering lessons for all partnerships.
• Objectification can be joyful: There’s power (and pleasure) in flipping the traditional gaze and allowing women to see men as objects of desire.
• “Prescribe” pleasure: Medical professionals can change lives by offering permission and context to explore and talk about desire.

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Stay Tuned

The group promises to continue this series with future episodes covering the rest of "Heated Rivalry"—much to their delight and, likely, to the immense satisfaction of their audience.

“Stay tuned for episode three, when something completely different happens.” — Ashley (58:22)

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Transcript

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Welcome to youo Are Not Broken, the podcast that challenges everything we've been taught about midlife hormones and sexuality. I'm Dr. Kelly Casperson, board certified urologist, author, and a leading voice in women's sexual and hormone health. Enjoy the show.

[Josh]

Welcome back to the you're Not Broken podcast. This is me and my friends talking about Heat of Rivalry episode two. And we started the conversation thinking, what's everybody going to do once they've retired from professional hockey? So what do we think Hayden's going to do?

[Rachel]

Have no personality.

[Josh]

He's going to be a realtor. No offense to realtors.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

He's just going to talk about how he used to play hockey for the rest of his life.

[Josh]

Yeah, dude. He is going to put himself into his kid's hockey career.

[Rachel]

Oh, yeah, that's what he's going to be. Hockey.

[Ashley]

Going to be the coach.

[Josh]

Maybe he's a spoiler alert at the hockey school.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

The Next generation. His son is going to fuck a

[Josh]

boy for sure, dude. So have you read this data? The more brothers you have that are older than you, older brothers, the more likely you are to be gay.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

No, I didn't know that.

[Ashley]

I mean, is that just like a statistic probability or something?

[Rachel]

But I have one older brother and I'm now identifying as a gay man after watching Heated Rivalry. So what.

[Josh]

What are you doing? Last episode you were identifying as a teenage boy, Rachel.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Right.

[Rachel]

Well, now I might. Now I'm a teenage boy who has come out of the closet.

[Ashley]

Well, like I said in my office, we're all wanting to be gay men. That is like, for from watching this. Like, that is what we want. And all the buts.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

That's what we want. Well, I am the oldest brother, so I don't know what happened in my family. My brother, my younger brother is not gay.

[Josh]

Well, mean people fall outside of the mean all the time.

[Rachel]

And of one, Josh.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah, N. Of one, I'm the outlier.

[Josh]

Like we said last time, this is not individual medical advice. We are all urologists. We are all obsessed with this episode. If you haven't gone back and listened to episode one, please do that. Or you're just going to be like, what the hell are they talking about? But in the first episode, we get into, like, how we got into the show, and we're going to do six episodes to correlate with these six episodes of Heated Rivalry, which we all are obsessed with.

[Rachel]

So did anybody? Josh, I haven't finished the podcast that you said you listened to of the straight hockey players talking about Every episode of Heated Rivalry. Did you listen to it?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I didn't listen to all of them. I just saw, like, clips of it.

[Josh]

I listened to the episode Rachel sent me. Is that who you're talking about?

[Rachel]

Yeah. There's, like. They do, like, what we're doing, but they're hockey players. And then they, like, get. They loved it. They loved it, but they get into the weeds of, like, all the things that are wrong, like how they refer to everybody as their last name. Of, like, oh, Rosenoff.

[Ashley]

Oh. Oh, Hollander.

[Rachel]

Fuck Hollander.

[Josh]

That's what surgeons do. But that's what we did in our training.

[Rachel]

We're all.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Our last names.

[Rachel]

Yeah, no, that's fair. Not.

[Ashley]

Not in my residency, we did not do that.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah, we didn't do that either.

[Ashley]

In fact, in my residency, we called all the attendings by their first name also, which was apparently not normal.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

There was a lot not normal about training in the area.

[Ashley]

There's so much not normal about.

[Rachel]

That could be a whole podcast, you guys. That could be a whole podcast.

[Ashley]

We had a whole conversation about this.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

A trauma podcast.

[Ashley]

So traumatic.

[Josh]

We'll BYO therapist.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Wait, what was your question, Kelly?

[Josh]

Well, my question is, would you guys. Do you remember what episode where Hollander and Rosenoff started first calling each other by their first name? Because it was during sex.

[Rachel]

It's not in the episodes we're supposed to be talking about, Kelly. It's later.

[Josh]

It's later. So stay tuned for that. So heated rivalry. Episode number two is titled Olympians, and it starts with them. The summer after the awards season is kind of in the summer, and that's where they had that awful split at the end of episode one. But episode two starts with them running in summer. Shane's in Montreal, Ilya's in Moscow. It's summer 2011, and they're texting each other.

[Rachel]

Oh, the texting is the best.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

It is good.

[Josh]

You notice that their cell phones up. They're like, their very year. Cause this started in 08, right?

[Rachel]

Blackberries.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Josh]

The first time I watched it, I was like, why is Shane talking about what YouTube is? Right? And it was like, oh. Cause it's 08.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Josh]

But, yeah, their phones mature or like, are you appropriate?

[Ashley]

Well, I was going to say actually getting kind of the interplay between medical topics and this. I was gonna say Shane is the type of guy, right? Because in episode two, he loses his anal virginity, and he is the type of guy that would have been taking prep, in my opinion, because he's too perfect and, like, dots all his I's and crosses his T's. But then I was thinking, I don't think prep was standard.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

No.

[Ashley]

In like 2011. Which is crazy. Right. So for people who listening.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Ashley]

Prep is like when you take basically HIV prophylaxis. And I don't know what you guys think about that, but he knows that Ilya is a man who's had sex with other men and like, well, he

[Dr. Gonzalez]

makes him wear a condom, he whips

[Josh]

out condoms, which is good.

[Rachel]

How does condoms work in the gay culture? Like, is it frowned upon?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Oh, no one uses them.

[Rachel]

So condoms are because of prep. No one uses condoms.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah. Which is obviously not. You can still get warts, you can still get gonorrhea.

[Rachel]

Gonorrhea.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

It only prevents hiv. Yeah. You can get everything else other than hiv. I think that's what people, you know, HIV is what people fear contracting the most from sex. And so they're willing to put up with the risk of getting like gonorrhea or chlamydia because those are like treatable with, with antibiotics.

[Rachel]

You know what I mean? Is it thought that condom sex, anal sex feels worse than non condomless anal sex.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I mean, I think if you polled everyone, they would say that condomless sex is better than condom sex. But I think that there's also this like, not like a culture, but I think it's with the advent of prep, there's now this like new thing where people want to be ejaculated inside of them. Because that for so long was like, you couldn't because, like, you could die from something like that. Right. So now it's sort of swung the opposite way where people like really enjoy that and seek that out as part of the sexual experience. And so the rate of transmission of other STIs has gone up dramatically since the advent of prep.

[Josh]

I was thinking about that adjacent when I was rewatching this because I was like, for one millisecond, I was like, ah, they don't have to worry about getting pregnant.

[Rachel]

Yeah, but you could get many other things.

[Ashley]

This is actually funny. So this girl I knew in college, she was very against, quote, unquote, sex before marriage.

[Rachel]

Oh, I hope she's listening.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And. And so the funny thing is though, because of that, she would have anal sex, which we all just ridiculed her for. But anyway, we called her nickname was anything but sex because she would have anything but sex.

[Josh]

Why you don't have the stand up career, Ashley. Why your husband has the same career and you don't have the stand up Career, continue to mystify me for the

[Rachel]

rest of our lives. So funny.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I went to Catholic high school, and there were many girls that I went to high school with who were good Catholic girls and did not want to have vaginal sex before marriage and would have anal sex with their boyfriends.

[Rachel]

I have very few memories from residency, but my intern year, I have a memory of being in the clinic, the colorectal clinic. And this woman, very rich, well to do, fancy Georgetown lady, is sitting there and she has like a positive hpv, you know, anal swab, something that they found. And the very awkward doctor is like, asking her about anal sex. And I remember her looking at him and go, oh, honey, I haven't done that for years.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Years.

[Rachel]

And it was just like this amazing moment of this older lady talking about her. And I was so proud of them all for talking about it.

[Josh]

What percentage of heterosexual anal sex do they prep or cleanse the rectum? Like, is that ever even talked about?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I have no idea.

[Josh]

We're all shaking our heads. No.

[Ashley]

Just as my experience as a straight woman, like, usually when that's broached, it's like some guy really wanting in the moment. Like, it was me in my 20s. And, like, there was like, drinking and there was like, do you want to do this? Like, and him trying to convince you to do it. And like, of course you hadn't prepped your anus and rectum because, like, you didn't want to do it and they were trying to convince you to.

[Josh]

So, no, I wouldn't have, like, prepped

[Ashley]

for something I didn't want to do that they were going to try to pressure me to do.

[Rachel]

So. Josh, say like, you're in. You're not prepped and you want to have. You want to bottom and have anal sex. Not you specifically, but anybody in that situation. What's the worst thing that happens? You get some poop on the penis. You get some poop on. There's. It smells like poop, which is kind of gross smell. But, like, we think about urine. We're all urologists, right? All four of us urologists. And we talk about pee is like not hurting anybody, right? If a man ejaculates and pee comes out, who cares if a woman pees when she orgasms? Awesome. Put a towel down. Like, who cares? What's the kind of. The gross factor?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

It's just poop. Yeah, I mean, it just smells like poop. And if you pull out, there could be some on your dick. And people can be weirded out by that. I think it's, you know, it depends on like, the situation. Like, I think couples who have sex pretty regularly, I think are less concerned than somebody who's like going out on a Saturday night hoping that they're going to find someone to hook up with. Like, who identifies as a bottom is probably going to prepare themselves with the anticipation or the hope that they will be able to have sex with someone later.

[Rachel]

But then wouldn't this be like, condoms would be cool here? Because then you're not getting, you know, then you just like for cleanup purposes. Condom seems like a smart idea. There's.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah, but I think it's also like just more like the smell. I think it's the whole thing. And you also have to remember, like, in gay world, like, hookup app culture is like a real thing, right? So, like, if you're on the apps, finding partners, you know what you're getting yourself into in most cases, right? That person's gonna be over in 15 minutes, so you better get ready situation.

[Rachel]

Can you get ready within 15 minutes? Is that like, is time? Like your friend who does the belly rubs from last episode, like, can he do it? Can we call him right now?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

He is a professional. He can get ready on vacation.

[Rachel]

Does that make him a power bottom? Like, is power bottom? Like, is that what that's referring to?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

And I think he would wear that badge proudly. Yeah.

[Rachel]

Awesome.

[Ashley]

I want to ask you a question which maybe is a very stupid question, but, like, okay, in an app, everything's out there, fine. But let's say you are just in a club environment and you are somebody who does define yourself solely as a top or solely as a bottom. Like, when do you communicate that with a potential sexual partner?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I mean, these are all good questions, but I think this also kind of goes back to what the show does really well, is that there are sometime of nonverbal cues that happen between gay men, even in straight spaces, right? Like, people joke of it as like being gaydar, right? Like, where we just kind of know when someone else is gay. Like, you know, when another gay man walks in the room, you could just sort of sense it. Or there's like a glance that like you give each other that straight men don't do. Like, they don't have that part of their brain to do that. Like, when a straight man walks in a room, the first person that he looks at is not going to probably be another man. And so there's this like non verbal communication that can happen between gay men to sort of signify we're on the same Team Ashley. Your question, I think is an extension of that. I think it's sort of. You wouldn't necessarily know that Ilia is going to top Shane in that moment, but there's things where he like sort of takes control and like turns him over and like, you know what I mean, acts a certain way to communicate that that's, that's what he wants. So I think that there, it's a lot of that sort of gesture, non verbal communication.

[Rachel]

What happens if there's a genital mismatch?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

It depends on how horny the people are. I think some people are like, well, it's not normally my thing, but I'll do it. But there are people that are very rigid in those categories and would then sort of move on to the next person.

[Josh]

I think there's genital mismatch in heterosexual couples all the time. And then the woman just thinks she's broken. You might be like a 4 foot 11 small vagina person trying to do it with somebody who's absolutely above the bell curve. And the woman's 10 times out of 10 is like, I failed. I actually had. This is probably like a year ago I was talking about this and somebody wrote in to tell me, like this was the high school loves of their lives broke up because of genital mismatch. And she heard on my podcast, like, oh, yeah, it's a thing. And they were like, oh my God. They had recently like reconnected, realized what they had done. She thought it was all her fault because he didn't fit and he was just like huge.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Josh]

And it's like soul crushingly so just a little bit of sex ed for people of like, not everything matches up all the time.

[Rachel]

I love the term genital mismatch. I think it's beautiful.

[Ashley]

So what did they do?

[Josh]

They're like older now and like talking because like both their spouses had died.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Josh]

Hopefully a very sweet ending to this. Or hopefully she's on vaginal estrogen and it's a very sweet, sweet ending to the story.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And they just have like a lot of oral sex or something.

[Rachel]

Right. Okay, so I have. Okay, so this is the sex episode, right? Like they actually have sex for the first time this episode, which I think is there's a couple things that are like so mind blowing to straight people. The first being the thing everyone's talking about is like the fact that they are face to face having sex. Right. That it's a missionary style sex position. And every straight woman who's not a urologist is sitting there saying like, how is that anatomy happening? Like what is happening there?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Well, he lifts his legs, right?

[Rachel]

Right.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

He like pulls his legs up like that to get the right angle.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

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[Josh]

and

[Rachel]

then the other thing of why when they give each other blowjobs in episode one, is it super quick? And then they have sex for like a really long time with many position Talk to me about ejaculatory latency time, please.

[Ashley]

I didn't think their sex was that long.

[Rachel]

I mean they're, they're in several positions and they move around a lot and there's different shots. It gives the guys that it's actually a longer situation as opposed to a very short. So I do think people want to hear we can talk about the data, but what is average? What happens? Is it always the same amount of time? Is it longer, is it shorter? That sort of thing?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I would say, I think in episode one the blowjob scene happens very quickly. Maybe it was because it was Shane's first time. He was probably just like so aroused and so excited. Like, I could imagine him ejaculating quickly, but I don't think that's. Nor like, I thought that was, like, pretty quick. I think with anal sex, it's just like, like vaginal sex, you can, you know, if you're getting close to the point of ejaculation, you can just sort of stop, change positions, and then continue to have sex for longer. So I think that was more realistic than the sort of quick coming from the blowjob.

[Rachel]

Another question. Sorry to get graphic here, but the anal sphincter is obviously much tighter than the vaginal canal. And so when anal sex is happening, are you completely exiting and then entering, or do you stay in and then move around a bunch?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Stay in mostly and move around a bunch.

[Rachel]

Because I imagine that initial push through that first sphincter is not that the hardest part?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel]

And you need a rigid erection, which is why people who have erectile dysfunction. Right. It's a really big challenge to get through that anal sphincter.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Exactly.

[Ashley]

Obviously the prostate is erogenous and leads to extremely pleasurable sensation and everything, but is the average person who's bottoming having to have their penis stimulated as well, or are they orgasming from the prostate stimulation?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

So Shane gets off hands free. And Ilya talks about that, like when he's teasing him in the stairway.

[Josh]

That's what he's talking about.

[Rachel]

That's what he's talking. So can you talk us through that?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I would say I don't think that's very common, and I think it depends on the person who is bottoming as to whether or not they want their penis stimulated. Because there are some bottoms who will be, like, flaccid while they're getting penetrated. And there are other bottoms who become incredibly aroused and are very erect when they're being topped. Right. There are some people who like bottoming and don't care about ejaculating. It's more sort of like giving pleasure to their partner. And then this who of sort of hands free, like, getting off hands free is, like, seen as, like, out of this world because, like, as like a man. You can't imagine, like, being able to be so aroused through prostate stimulation that you're able to get an erection and ejaculate without touching yourself at all. So Ilia's clearly a very good lover.

[Josh]

Shane is, like, so turned on by Ilia, though.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah, exactly.

[Rachel]

I mean, so are we all, like, let's do it out? Like, America is also very turned on by Ilya. He is like, he just like really speaks to all of us. But so I think this is really important to talk about because we talk about, you know, women come to see us all the time and say, oh, I can't orgasm from penetration. I'm broken. I can't orgasm from penetration. And as we know, men don't typically orgasm from anything other than penis stimulation. Right. It's this rare occurrence that you can orgasm from prostate stimulation or sort of another way. It's not impossible, but it's pretty unlikely. It's kind of like a unicorn situation. And so it's really important as we teach women their own body parts to be like, it's. Think of this as a penis. Your clitoris is a. How would you stimulate it if it were someone's penis? And like getting them in their mindset of like, it's the same body part and like, how do we get it to work fully? And I think it's so important because again, it's this, this hands free orgasm. Seems. Is this a Hollywood version of the orgasm from penetration? Should we be mad at Jacob Tierney for that moment?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

No, I think, I think it's supposed to signify that like, number one, Ilya's an experienced lover, and number two, that Shane is so incredibly aroused from the sex that he's having with this man that he doesn't even have to touch himself to get off. But I would say in the real world, that's not very common.

[Rachel]

Can we take a quick pause and talk about the fact that Josh and I are in a movie directed by Jacob Tierney's best friend, and it comes out on Friday.

[Josh]

It's already come out by the time people are listening to this. But I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna pull down my card. Can I tell you that I talked day on my podcast?

[Rachel]

Oh my God. How did it go? Isn't she amazing?

[Josh]

Yeah, it was great. So I, I interviewed the producers and the director and Cindy. It was like four of them. And then me for my podcast earlier today. And the whole time I was like, Rachel Rubin, I'm talking to Jacob Tierney's best friend right now.

[Rachel]

Oh my God.

[Josh]

Did you professionalness of me? I did not bring him up.

[Rachel]

Oh, man, you are so.

[Josh]

I did not ask for favors.

[Rachel]

You are so, like, you're so put together. I'm so impressed with you. I have no shame.

[Josh]

So people know what we're talking about. The pink pill. It's out on Paramount. It is the story of Addie Flobanserin getting FDA approved and it is heartwarming. And amazing and inspiring. And a effing slog because they don't quit. And it takes forever to get this done.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

It's very well produced. It's a very good documentary.

[Josh]

The movie's not a slog. What they had to do to get this thing FDA approved was a slogan.

[Rachel]

And the point being, the director of this movie is best friends with the director of Heated Rivalry, which means that Josh and I might as well have been in the cottage ourselves.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I mean, we should probably be brought

[Rachel]

on as medical intimacy consultants.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah. Or just like medical advisors to the second season.

[Rachel]

Can we be vibers? Like, just given the vibe, I feel

[Dr. Gonzalez]

like I should be sort of going over with the actors how the gay sex should be represented on screen.

[Josh]

I think Josh would be excellent in this role. And I think Rachel would just be, like, giggling.

[Rachel]

Just wanna watch in the corner. I just want to be the creepy guy in the corner.

[Josh]

Josh will actually be doing the work.

[Rachel]

You just be like, oil the abs more. I have nothing to add. I have nothing to add, but just claps. Just clapping.

[Ashley]

Just.

[Rachel]

Just. Just clapping.

[Ashley]

I was a medical advisor once on a movie.

[Josh]

You were.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

You were.

[Ashley]

Yeah. It had. It had, like, Kristen Stewart in it and Glenn Close and she's your doppelganger.

[Josh]

Not Glenn Close.

[Ashley]

Kristen Stewart. That's very nice of you.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Not Glenn Close.

[Josh]

Oh, and the guy.

[Ashley]

The guy from Law and Order. What's his face? The main lawyer guy.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh]

How did it go, Ashley? Do tell.

[Ashley]

It was awesome. It was like, I got paid, and I showed up at this, like, a place in, I think where in New York. It was. It was when I was in residency and I was on, like, my research time, and some. I forget who it was. Was like, they're shooting this movie. You can look it up. The movie's called Anesthesia. And they needed, like, cheap doctors to, like, be on set and be like, this looks medically appropriate. This doesn't look medically appropriate. And, like, residents were cheap labor. But it was amazing because, like, at one point. God, what's the guy's name? The Law and Order guy?

[Josh]

Hated Note,

[Ashley]

but he was, like, supposed to be in a coma. And then they just had him with, like, a little nasal cannula. And I'm like, you don't have a GCS score of, like, 6 and be sitting there with a nasal cannula.

[Rachel]

Sam Waterston.

[Ashley]

Sam Waterston. Sam Waterston. Thank you. And so I literally took, like. If I had to. They had this. All this medical stuff. And so I took, like, an ET tube and I trimmed it and, like, made him put it in his mouth and, like, pretend it was going down his throat. And obviously it was trimmed. And then, like. And I was, like, putting tape all over.

[Rachel]

Did you touch Sam Waterson?

[Ashley]

I did. I put tape all over Sam Waterston's face and I was like, awesome.

[Rachel]

Why is that not on your cv? That should be on your cv.

[Ashley]

Yeah, probably.

[Rachel]

I would have hired you. I know. I did hire you, but, like, I would definitely have hired you if I knew Sam Waterston was, like, on your fingertips.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel]

Can we talk about Svetlana? Because we didn't mention her and she ends out episode one.

[Josh]

So we meet Svetlana in episode one, and she pops up again during the Sochi Winter Olympics in 2014 because she's in Russia at that time and she bounces back between Boston and Moscow also

[Rachel]

because, like, they try to make her as, like, this. Ooh, this bad character. And she is a fucking perfect character. Like, she is almost like.

[Josh]

Who tries to make her a bad character?

[Rachel]

No, no, I mean, like, at the end, it's like a surprise. There's a girl and there's a woman and, like, oh, this is going to be like a controvers because there's a woman there. Like, they make you think it's gonna be like, this dramatic bad thing and he lies and all this stuff, and she ends up being the most delightful, wonderful.

[Josh]

She's fantastic.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

She's gonna be their egg donor.

[Ashley]

Obviously, the women are the ride or dies.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

The women, they're so well written and they're complex and beautiful. Yeah.

[Rachel]

She knows so much about sports. It's, like, so amazing. She's so hot.

[Josh]

She's perfect for Ilya. If Ilya didn't love shit, that's the thing is, like, she's perfect for him, as is Rose.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Right. To Shane. Like, that's what makes those characters so great.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

I feel like the only time Spelenna doesn't read Ilia right is, like, in that party after the Olympics when she reintroduces Ilya to the coach's son. And, like, clearly Ilya was not in that headspace. Like, he was not vibing that. And I was like, why did she put them together like that?

[Josh]

She wanted him to be happy. She knew he wasn't happy and he. That was providing happiness for him in the past.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Josh]

So I think it was her attempt to try to make him happy.

[Rachel]

She didn't know about Jane as much, right? She didn't know. Like, when do you think she fully knows about Jane.

[Josh]

She sees a text.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah, that's later.

[Josh]

I don't know what episode is. They're in the car.

[Ashley]

But didn't she say at that time that she had been. They had been texting for a long time or something?

[Josh]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley]

Same the way. I think, like, Hayden has recognized that Shane is texting Jane, right?

[Rachel]

Or Lily.

[Josh]

I forget who.

[Ashley]

Which one's name? His code name is who?

[Rachel]

It's Ilia, Lily, Shane, Jane.

[Josh]

Okay. Oh, my God. I didn't get that until now.

[Ashley]

I did not get that either. Holy shit.

[Josh]

One point. Rachel Rogan,

[Dr. Gonzalez]

bow to the judges.

[Josh]

Nice dismount. No, I think, I think that, that Svetlana is perfect in every way. It's the whole, like. Like Shane can't not be gay. Like, like she's perfect.

[Rachel]

She is. That's such a good point. She's perfect. She's the perfect woman. She likes sports. She's smoking hot. She'll have sex with him and doesn't care that he has sex with other people. She doesn't even care that he's gay.

[Josh]

She sells fancy cars. He loves fancy cars.

[Rachel]

She's the perfect woman. And like, he still loves the neurodivergent, like, boring hockey player.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

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[Ashley]

You can't make a good romance around a relationship. That's too easy. And even if, like, right, I mean, even if he wasn't in love with Shane, it's like, that can't be a story. Like it's not a story. It would be too fucking boring. Especially, like, we wouldn't care.

[Josh]

You know what I noticed a lot about the filming that I appreciated is they do. They spend a lot of time having beautiful lighting, and these men are oiled and sweaty. We get to appreciate a man for his body in a way that we don't get to appreciate men's bodies in most media. Like, it's usually like, a bicep and their face, right? But, like, here, like, we've got chest, we've got back, we've got butt, we've

[Dr. Gonzalez]

got face, we've got a lot of, like, underwear shots.

[Josh]

Many men taking off clothes and folding and folding them. How often or how often do men.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

That is so, so nerdy. Oh, my God, he does that.

[Josh]

But we don't see that. We see women take off clothes, but we don't see men take off clothes.

[Rachel]

You don't always see them folding the clothes. What was cute about the folding the clothes? I actually wrote this down because, of course, I took notes when I did a reheat this morning. So when there's folding the clothes, you see Ilya watch him and smile in a way that reminds you that, like, the person that you are meant to be with loves you for your weird quirks, loves you for the ridiculousness, loves you for those things. So, like, don't hide them, because your human is meant to, like, see those and, like, those. And the more you're you and the more they like you, the more it's, like, a good fit. And you start to see it where Ilia is, like, so into those things, and that's what drives him so beautiful.

[Ashley]

I love that.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

That's a really cute scene.

[Rachel]

Like, I love the boring stuff coming out, right, where he says, I've been reading New York, New Yorker, and he goes, that's the boring. Oh, is genetic boring? You know, Are you genetically boring?

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

He's like, my dad loves that.

[Josh]

It's so cute. So beginning of episode two, we're in 2011. They're running in Montreal and Moscow, texting each other. And then fall 2012, they haven't connected yet. Now it's 2013. I think episode two, not quite as much as, like, episode one is, like, years, right? And episode two is still a very long period of time. So we got 2013. Now they're captains. Montreal wins four to three over Boston. Ilya comes over to Shane's house, and when they're kissing there, I calculated it's been two years, and they have sex. So episode two Is we're calling sex anal sex here. Like, the blowjobs didn't count as sex, so we're kind of being a little cliched. So they met in 08. And now according to my calculations, it's 2013, soon to be 2014. Because Sochi Olympics happens right after they have sex. Or fast forward to Sochi Olympics. It's been so long. And I think that's what people talk about with this show is, like, the longing of, like, the waiting, the anticipation. The whole show, I think, is 11 years, they say.

[Ashley]

I think it's also, though, to say they start as teenagers. Right? Like, technically, I think they're not even both 18, technically, in the story when they start the show. And just to say, I think when you're, like, that young, we forget. Since we're all in our 40s, I think all of us. Right. There is a lot more latency when you're young with progression of things.

[Rachel]

That's a great point.

[Josh]

I forgot that.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Like, my first boyfriend, I didn't. I mean, years before we had sex.

[Rachel]

Oh, I hope he's listening.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah, I'm sure he's not listening.

[Josh]

Not sure he's a top fan of the you are not podcast.

[Ashley]

But I mean, now, like, the thought of that would be insane.

[Rachel]

Yeah, no, that's a great point. Right, Like. And I actually talk to my patients about this a lot, so I take care of a lot of male veterans, and, you know, they're complaining about the erectile dysfunction in your talking to them, and they're like, well, I haven't. We don't do anything because I can't get perfect directions. We don't hold hands. We don't kiss, we don't cuddle. We don't go in the same bed. We don't orgasm together. And I was like, do you not remember being 13 and you were not guaranteed penetration and how much fun it was just to, like, caress someone and make out and hug and kiss and, like, touch genitals. Like, can you remember that? And they all sort of look at me and they're like, oh, yeah. They, like, feel it in their body. They're like, oh, yeah, that was great. Like, I remember that. And you're like, go do that tonight. Like, go do that. Like, stop being miserable.

[Josh]

Sitting on a couch watching a movie and, like, the millimeters of, like, inching towards each other.

[Ashley]

Ugh. Ugh.

[Rachel]

Well, that was like, the beach scene with their hands, like, in the foot. The foot taps, like, the selfie on the tv. And his hand Goes down and you're like, yeah, it does. Like, you feel that. You feel those moments, or if you've

[Ashley]

ever been in a friend group where you were attracted to somebody but, like, it hadn't been directly communicated yet, and you spent, like, time physically, like, near

[Rachel]

them, and it, like, radiates it, like,

[Josh]

yes, we forget all of that stuff.

[Rachel]

Yes, it's been a long time.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Josh]

Like, we take it. So we just go straight to the genitals now. Like, we're stupid.

[Ashley]

It's so stupid.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

We got other things to do. We got a busy schedule.

[Josh]

I have a mortgage, okay?

[Rachel]

So I made a video, I made an Instagram once about, like, how we should stop having such boring sex all the time. And people are so having lazy sex and to get out of it. And one of the moms from school sort of pulled me over, you know, at the soccer field, and she goes, stop fucking talking about lazy sex. I like the lazy sex that I'm having. Please, like, don't give my husband any ideas. I want to be lazy. And I was like, it's a great point. I totally get it.

[Ashley]

I remember actually a patient was into doing tantric sex, and he came to me and he's like, I have erectile dysfunction because I'm supposed to have this eight hour long sex. Sex, tantric sex, and I can't maintain that long. And I was like, what are you doing? I was like, an erection that lasts

[Rachel]

eight hours needs to go to the emergency room. Dude, get a job.

[Ashley]

Is your sex so interesting?

[Josh]

We can only have sex for four hours now.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Who has that much time?

[Ashley]

I know. I'm like, tone it down, sir.

[Rachel]

I'm like, you are. So we didn't talk about the data. We sort of alluded to this. So, Dr. Gonzalez or Winter, can you please tell the audience the data of what is the average amount of time a man takes from, you know, sort of penetration to orgasm or from stimulation to orgasm?

[Josh]

I'm like, you didn't ask me. And I literally just made this slide for teaching at Harvard. Like, I literally just made this slide this week.

[Rachel]

Go ahead, put me in.

[Josh]

Put me in, coach. Okay, so median 5.4 minutes.

[Rachel]

Correct.

[Josh]

Varies by country.

[Rachel]

America's about seven minutes.

[Josh]

America's kind of in the middle.

[Rachel]

USA. USA. What's R. What's Russia? What's Russia? Yeah, what's Russia? Wait, I gotta look this up. I Ielt Russia because I have the

[Josh]

graph on my PowerPoint because it's right next to the graph of how long does a woman, if a woman is to have an orgasm by vaginal penetration, how long does it take? And it takes long. It takes about 13 or 14 minutes of median. Right. So, like, it never matches up is the whole point. And so then My question for Dr. Gonzalez is, do they have the same data looking at intra anal latency time?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

No, not that I'm aware of. No. All our. Most of our metrics.

[Josh]

You think they would.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I know. Well, most of the metrics in. In sexual medicine is peno. Vaginal sex.

[Rachel]

We gotta change that.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah. I mean, even the definition of intravaginal ejaculatory latency time or premature ejaculation is defined by vaginal penetration, so.

[Rachel]

Well, I have a question. So you. You're saying now, and I can't remember if it was last episode or this episode because it's like freaking midnight where I live. When you have anal sex, like, how often does the actual orgasm happen? Canal versus outside versus, like, does that variable or is. Is.

[Josh]

It depends.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah. On the people that are having the sex. And like. But I think that's the goal for a lot of people is to have it inside.

[Josh]

Like, the preference would be intra anal.

[Rachel]

One of the things that sort of has come up is sort of you. You were asking about the scripts for gay sex, right? We, you know, straight sex, you watch movies, you watch porn, you know, all of this stuff. Like, the idea of it with gay sex, you have to communicate who's doing what, who's putting what where, what are you comfortable? You know, there's a little bit more commun. I would say, potentially. Like, what would you say about that? Like, do you find that gay men are better at communicating than.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Oh, I mean, they'll be pretty open about wanting it inside, you know, saying like, oh, I want your load, like that kind of stuff. But like, I mean, in our representations in porn, a lot of times, because you want to see the ejaculate, they will do it outside for the cameras. But I think in the real world, there's a lot of people that are obsessed with being ejaculated inside.

[Rachel]

So dirty talk. We kind of get a little bit of dirty talk, right from Shane and Ilya, right. Get on the floor, suck my dick. All of this, you know, kind of very erotic language. You know, I find straight people want to start playing with dirty talk, but maybe don't know how. They don't feel comfortable. It's very awkward and feels strange. Do you find that the dirty talk in the show is more like romance novel erotica or, you know, sort of more in line with Real life life?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

No, I think it's, it's in line with real life. Probably because gay sex involves two men. There's less. I mean, I, I don't know, maybe you guys could speak to this more than me, but I think that, that in heterosexual couples sometimes there's a reservation to use language like that because it can come off as degrading to women. Right. If the man is saying that, is that denigrating the their female partner? I think there's like a concern there where I don't think you really get that in a man to man sexual situation. Like you can be filthy, you could be nasty and not worry about like are you denigrating that person?

[Josh]

I think in heterosexual relationships what shocks me is that it's not talked about. More of the power dynamics just based upon how women are treated in the world and how men are treated in the world. And then you have a heterosexual relationship which the power dynamics of the world are in the bedroom, they're in the kitchen, they're where who pays the taxes. And it's like, like we never talk about it. Like it doesn't exist. And then the other big thing is like safety, right? Of like when you look at Shane and Ilia, like they're very safe with each other and nobody's going to share any secrets, nobody's going to kiss and tell, nobody's going to go tell Svetlana how steamy Thursday was. Shane's not going to call Ilia a right. Like there's, it's, it's such a safe container which was maybe so like, so beautiful to see. And I think especially for heterosexual relationships where safety is a legitimate concern, but nobody talks about not feeling safe.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

That's a good point.

[Rachel]

I think the communication is such an interesting thing. You know, I think one of my disappointments about straight men refusing to watch this show is the lack of curiosity and interest of why is this so important to straight women? And what can we as straight men learn from this in how we have conversations around intimacy, around sex? You know, I know many straight men who are getting laid significantly more because of this show, but it doesn't give them that like, wait, I want to watch it to find out how I can capitalize on this even more. Right? Like is there even more I can learn from it? And I think that goes in line with sort of that curiosity of what does my partner actually like? Well, I don't want to actually ask them because that's too awkward. So I'm just going to keep pushing. Like I'M still going to touch different parts of it until something kind of lands.

[Ashley]

It's like the way we, on a societal level allow men to be sexual beings. We just, like, do not. It's just too rigid. Like, women are allowed to find women with other women erotic. And there's this idea that if you're a straight man, you're not allowed to find men being with men erotic. And it's a double standard. And one of these places where it's actually men have, like, more discrimination in terms of how they're allowed to, like, like, view sex in some way. Like, I think. I think men are afraid. I think that's what it is. But I don't know. Maybe next time we'll get a straight man on this podcast.

[Josh]

Correct me like, it's been a while since I've looked at this, but, like, they basically strap penises up to, you know, meters of rigidity, and then they stick like moisture sensors in vaginas. And then they have people, different people of different aspirations. Watch. Different erotica.

[Rachel]

Right?

[Josh]

The whole point. But the whole point, if I'm remembering this data properly, is like, the heterosexual men are literally, like, only turned on by heterosexual erotica. Women are turned on by everything.

[Rachel]

We're animals.

[Josh]

We're turned on by everything. And then the homosexual men, again, if I'm remembering correctly, they're more turned on by homosexual erotica.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

There's something about the straight men where,

[Josh]

like, it doesn't actually turn them on, whereas women are like, yeah, anything that we're. We're good with at all.

[Ashley]

I don't. I just don't believe it. I just cannot believe it. I just, like, how could you watch that show and not find it hot?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah. And I think, like, it's so culturally specific, right? Like. Like all the things that we know about sort of like ancient Greece and ancient Rome and how, like, that was just, like, a part of growing up, right? Like, you had sex with men. It didn't necessarily mean that you had to identify as being homosexual. And that's obviously changed in. Not the same way in our culture now.

[Josh]

And, William, you have to think about, if you've been socialized your whole life to not be gay, don't be gay. Don't find that arousing. Like, if you're sitting in a research room in Cincinnati and they strap this onto your penis, like, can you suppress this?

[Rachel]

That.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Josh]

The women. The women can't, though. The women are like, everything turns us on.

[Ashley]

The prostate is an erogenous zone, regardless of sexual orientation, right? And so like, to me, I feel like if men weren't socialized to be so scared to watch this and experience this with intrigue, they would see a man getting his prostate stimulated through anal penetration and find that extraordinarily erotic. Because most straight men want to be pegged, let's be honest. Like that is a thing like, like anyway. And so I think that there's something in there for them that's very like, that they could viscerally experience. Even if it's not identifying with being with a man, it's saying like, oh my God, I can see this person having this erogenous zone stimulated that I don't usually see somebody who kind of looks like me being stimulated and vulnerable in this way. I think that could be profoundly erotic. But I don't. Maybe I.

[Josh]

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Ashley]

I don't know.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

One thing I was gonna say too, that I think is this came across more for me in episode three where we meet Kip and his relationship with Scott, but it does translate to Ilya and Shane's relationship too, is that there's this constant balance between the dirty talk and the sexually explicit talk. Specifically in episode three where they're having this sort of romantic morning after. I'm making you a smoothie cause I wanna show you how much I care about you. And then he picks Kip up and just says, can I fuck you? And he's like, absolutely. And then they go and have sex and then they come back and the next scene is them actually drinking the smoothies.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

But there's this like constant back and forth between like romantic love and affection that these men are not afraid, at least in that relationship. I think Ilya and Shane, it takes them a while to get there. But like in that relationship where they're not afraid to be vulnerable with each other, to show each other affection and also be a little dirty with each other. And I think that could be like a good lesson for a lot of, a lot of straight men to follow.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

You can be both like hypersexual and tell your partner that you want to like their brains out and also make them a smoothie right after.

[Josh]

Yes. Mic drop.

[Rachel]

I like, can we make a P.S. like, it's so good what you just said. And I think that's part of, I think what women want and what men think that women like. I think there's a disconnect and I actually think it's not that, that far apart that women want that sexual, want to be desired, want those words, but also need the intimate kindness and the sweetness. Right. As well.

[Josh]

I think it's the how I've been explaining it is women want to be desired and they don't want to be used. And it can be a fine line for people who haven't figured out how to navigate that of like, I want you, but I don't just need you as a whole.

[Rachel]

Well, there's a respect, right? There's a respect and a carnal desire and then like a respect that comes with that and a love. Right?

[Josh]

Yeah. Like I want you for you. Not cause I just need to have an orgasm, but I would like to have an orgasm with you. Right. Like it's like women deeply want to be desired. Our society puts it all over billboards that like, to be the woman is to be the desired person. And we hear from women so often. I feel used.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

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[Josh]

I'm just doing this for him because he just wants it. Like it's a very. Like, it's not like, oh yeah, he's desiring me and it's awesome, right? Like there's that disconnect there in the

[Rachel]

show, I guess because we are not seeing it over years and years. Like, how come there's not that sort of feeling of he didn't answer my text for six months. I was ghosted. Like, he doesn't like me. The so women do this thing all the time, right? Where it's like, oh, he didn't write back. He didn't write back for this many days, right? There's this whole undercurrent of, does he like me? Doesn't he like me? This agony, this ruminating, this, like, you know, sort of, like, frustration that happens with these texting games, and yet it doesn't come through in this book.

[Ashley]

I mean, I will say again, from, like, listening to the audiobook of this early part of the series, they tell you more about, like, Shane's inner monologue, where he's, like, telling himself, like, he's going to try and go back to just being with women. And he is trying to navigate that and say, like, was this just a fluke? I can be with women. I'm going to. Like, that will make my life easier. I'm going to try, maybe. And so I think for him personally, he's not a. Like, yes, he's having these intense moments and this beautiful intimacy with Ilya, but then he's not gonna be hanging on Ilya's words and, like, demanding, hey, text me back. Because he's wanting to make this not a part of himself. And I think it becomes more of an issue, like, after the Olympics and stuff.

[Josh]

So it's Sochi, winter 2014, then it's summer 2014. They're at the award show together and they're presenting that award together. And then again, and Ilya just knows where Shane is. And he's in this, like, random, completely empty bathroom, and Ilya comes in and

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Shane with dirty floors, with very dirty

[Josh]

floors, and they're in tuxedos. And so Shane confronts him in the bathroom and he says, you haven't answered a text for me in, like, six months. Yeah. So, like, there is a buildup and, like, what the fuck are we at this point? And he says, what do you want from me?

[Rachel]

He's so hurt. And then he's like, please, just get on this floor.

[Josh]

And then he's like, dude, we gotta get back out to the awards ceremony because one of us is gonna win MVP.

[Ashley]

But in 2009, 2010, right, Shane is still trying to be like, maybe I cannot be gay. And so he's not as hurt about the standoffishness because he's hoping for it almost.

[Josh]

Yeah. I mean, Shane's full on in, like, at this point, because spring 2014. So this is right before the awards season. Montreal is watching Boston win the cup, and Shane gets teary, like, for some reason, like, all of his teammates have left Hayden's living room because Boston fucking won. And then, like, Shane gets teary, you know, like, he's in. He loves Ilia at this point. And then he gets very pissed. Cause, like, what the fuck is this? Rachel, let's go back to what you were talking about for the last episode. You were talking about prescribing heated rivalry to patients to watch, for them to learn and to understand. I mean. I mean, what we hear on social media is women will say that doctors just say, just go watch porn as, like, kind of a dismissal of how to help them sexually. And I think when doctors say that and it comes across as flip, you're putting her out there in a world of, like, a bunch of shitty porn. And plus, they don't really want to watch porn because it's got a stereotype. But actually giving them heated rivalry, full of safety, no power dynamics, no women's being abused. It's a very different thing than just kind of flippantly having a doctor be like, go watch porn. Which comes across very dismissive.

[Rachel]

No, I think heated rivalry is an incredible thought piece that gets people thinking about their own sexuality and what turns them on and what is sexuality and what is libido and what is desire and what makes us want to want. And I think it's just such an incredible. Like, I tell people to watch it because I want to have conversations with them about it, about what they think I think we can do. Diagnose low libido and people who feel nothing for this show. Right. Like.

[Josh]

Like. Like if. If HR didn't do anything for you,

[Rachel]

you should take Addie. If you have. If you don't like, you do rivalry. But I had this one interaction that actually really speaks to how important it is for doctors to talk about things like this. So I said, I take care of veterans. And I had this veteran woman in my office, and she had military sexual trauma and PTSD and sort of everything all of my military patients have. She was sitting there and we were talking about perimenopause and hormones and all of these things. And we went over all of it, and I said, oh, my. Heard about this amazing new show, Heated Rivalry. She said, oh, I think I've seen people talk about it, but what is it? So I explained to her what it is, and she looked at me and she said, Dr. Rubin, she goes, one time I saw gay porn, and I really liked it. And I never told anyone ever before because I thought there was something disgusting about me. And I looked at her and I said, oh, girl, you're so normal. Like, this Is like amazing. The whole world is talking about this. It's in the New York Times, it's in the Washington Post. It's literally everywhere. It's viral. Women love gay porn. And here's why. We had a long conversation about it and the air got lighter because she felt like there was something wrong with her. Like she was disgusting or morally problematic. And she left being like, oh no, I'm totally normal and I'm going to go watch the show and talk about it with my friends. And I loved that for her. And I think we see this in the exam room all the time. This is where your clitoris is. This is your pelvic floor. This is where you should put the vibrator so that you have orgasms. This is why you're not orgasming with penetration. This is why your libido is low. Biology that your gas tank is empty. You have no hormones in your body. You have no dopamine. You're so busy with all the stressful things, explaining to women sort of their lived experiences and giving them that validation. I didn't realize how much that was medicine. And it is so medical and so giving heated rivalry as sort of a prescription. I am not going to apologize for that. I think it's so fun.

[Josh]

I think it's perfect because it's so well curated and it's so safe. You're not like, hey, go out and wild west this on your own and crowdsource and figure out porn. You're putting them in a very safe landed place and then you're like, and come back and we're going to talk about it.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Josh]

It's not dismissive at all.

[Ashley]

To that end, I think something that's been so revolutionary and such a moment about this is the fact that this is very explicit and it's a phenomenon that everybody is openly talking about because traditionally porn is lonely. It's like what you're doing to masturbate. It's what you do. People often associate with shame or having a lack of a partner or an addiction or thing. You know, like erotic portrayals are fundamentally considered a lonely thing. And this is something that's very erotic and everybody's coming together about it as a, a community.

[Josh]

And I think women are like renting out bars.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Josh]

To like watch this with like big groups of girlfriends.

[Ashley]

Like, I guess what I mean is we should start assigning like a monthly porn that people watch and get together.

[Rachel]

This is my idea. Smutty book club. Yes. I want to do smutty book club with a Sex therapist. So that we get a sex therapist to talk to about smutty book club. And like, really? Do you want to start it? Because you could do it, Ashley, Because I don't have time. Yes, let's do it. Yes. Great. Okay. Smutty book club Club. Done.

[Ashley]

We all need to Deb. Like, we need to watch porn and, like, debrief about it.

[Josh]

That's what we.

[Rachel]

Well, this was really fun. We were at IS Kelly. We were. We were at iswish, the Women's Sexual Health Conference. And I made everyone come to my room and watch. He did Rivalry, and it was urologist, internal medicine, gynecology, psychiatry and sex therapy and a basic scientist. And we were all in the room together watching and the conversations, the joy. And a vibrator manufacturer. So it was like, so amazing because so many people were looking at it from their lenses. And yet it was this shared joy. It was really fun. That's. Everyone should to isswish. It's the best conference ever.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Josh]

I love it. Well, yeah, just real quick on what the Economist said about heated rivalry. So it was the second most streamed show in the world at the time of the Economist writing. And mostly, like, heterosexual women made this huge. Because we're a huge demographic. It's huge in Russia, which is stereotypically pretty homophobic. And one third of people watched it more than one time. Time. One fifth of people watched it like more than four or five times.

[Rachel]

How many times have you watched. You said you've watched it four times.

[Josh]

I'm on my fourth.

[Rachel]

Yeah, this is my. This is my fourth go around.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

This is my third. You guys are watching more than me. I have.

[Ashley]

I've only watched it twice.

[Josh]

I haven't even. Only.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

You've done the audiobooks.

[Josh]

Yeah, you. And you did the audio books.

[Ashley]

I did. Can I tell you the one on. Because it's. If you have Spotify premium subscription, you can listen to the audio. But the guy, I don't know who he is. I'm sorry to be judgmental, but I dislike the person reading it. Like, he does a phony Russian thing when he does Ilya's voice and then he does this, like, fake woman voice when he does, like, Shane's mom. And it's like, awful.

[Rachel]

Like, I just have Connor stories do it all.

[Josh]

Well, that would be great.

[Rachel]

You were asking about whether or not you should release all of these at once versus sprinkle them in. And so, you know, there's all always the chance that if we do sprinkle it and people can kind of tell us the things they want to talk about, the things they want to hear about. We could take audience questions and commentary, but also that'll get overwhelming as well. But obviously, you're in charge.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Okay.

[Josh]

I love it. I mean, you guys have to pinky swear that we're going to do 3, 4, 5, and 6, then we're best friends.

[Rachel]

Why would we do that?

[Josh]

It's going to happen.

[Ashley]

It only gets better.

[Josh]

Girl, girl, girl.

[Rachel]

That's like, she's the hero, right?

[Dr. Gonzalez]

She, like, I love, love her. I love her.

[Rachel]

Hayden sucks, but the women are all awesome, right?

[Josh]

Like, Rachel's got to get a T shirt.

[Rachel]

I'm so Auntie Hayden and like, girl. She's so good.

[Josh]

Girl, girl.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

The only redeemable straight man in the whole show is Kip's dad.

[Rachel]

Oh.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Who is just.

[Josh]

He's so lazy.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

The only good straight person in the show. Straight man.

[Ashley]

Okay. Shane's dad is not a bad guy.

[Rachel]

He's not a bad character. He's from Niptown.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I do remember him.

[Rachel]

Was a sexy show in its day.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I remember that show.

[Rachel]

I had a lot of childhood memories of that show. Sort of making.

[Ashley]

Wait, what show?

[Rachel]

Nip Tuck.

[Ashley]

Oh, I never saw it.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Christian Troy was the.

[Rachel]

There was threesomes in that show. That, like, sort of. Sort of?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Was it?

[Josh]

I thought it was about plastic surgeons or something.

[Rachel]

Oh, yeah. Who had a lot of sex with their patients. Yeah.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

You know who produced that show? Ryan Murphy. That was, like, his. One of his first big shows before Glee. Yeah. Oh, that, like, made him girl, girl, girl.

[Josh]

Okay, so let's wrap up this episode. Season two, we've got summer 2014 awards. They present together. And then they have Ross wins the mvp. They have sex in an amazing penthouse. You're in a penthouse.

[Rachel]

They drag the chair.

[Josh]

They drag the chair. Well, because. Because Shane's like, there's too many windows. I'm like, you're in a penthouse in Vegas. Nobody's looking up here. What it was very, very sweet was

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

after they have sex.

[Josh]

Sex. Shane is talking to Roz about if he even likes Russia. And I think it's the beginning. Like, and Ilya doesn't know it yet, but it's like Ilya had never thought if Russia was going to be in his future or not. Like, he was just so aligned with it. And it was like, the beginning of the fracture of that and the beginning of Shane actually being like, how do you feel?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right.

[Josh]

Like, do you even like Russia? And I think up till then, Ilya hadn't considered if liking Russia was. Was a thing he was able to do. And so I thought that was very, very sweet. And then it goes to. He's figuring out what to text him in the elevator and he says, we didn't even kiss. Cause they were just fucking. Like, so they were just fucking. They were not kissing. And then they get. Shane tries to get emotionally connected with asking about Russia, and then he texts, we didn't even kiss. And then he deletes it. And then end of ep.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

That was his way of creating intimacy that was lost with the lack of kissing.

[Josh]

There wasn't any kids kissing.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Rachel]

Which is okay sometimes. Let's just be real. It's okay sometimes. Yeah.

[Josh]

Shane really wanted to kiss us. Watching Ilya watch Shane. Ilya was so hot in him, wanting the lighting and the, like, oily skin.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

The moonlight on the abs is like

[Josh]

the vodka they make. They make alcohol look glamorous.

[Ashley]

I was watching something where somebody was giving feedback of the show and was saying, like, complaining that it was, like, creating unrealistic expectations of the bodies. And I'm like, can we just have this nice shiny thing? Like. Like, can we just.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

Can we objectify men for once, please?

[Josh]

Yeah. Can 23 year olds be hot? Like, can 23 year olds please be allowed to be hot?

[Rachel]

Because, yeah, you got so many decades of objectifying women. Can't we objectify a man for just a minute?

[Ashley]

I fully support, like, sitcom you've ever watched where there's like a dumpy man and a hot wife and you're just like, let me just have this thing. Like, let me. It's this nice shiny thing. I'm going to just have this thing.

[Josh]

And like, I know they've been oiled and I don't mind.

[Ashley]

Yeah, exactly. Like, give me all my unrealistic expectations and objectify bodies and I'm so here for it in this moment.

[Rachel]

But that's what, again, it's very animalistic. Like, again, this concept of we are animals who get turned on by these animalistic things and it's not logical, it doesn't make any sense all the time. And like, we can't logic our way through it sometimes times the emotions, the biology, the feelings, it's just awesome.

[Josh]

I love all of it, too. Any f. Any parting words for the end of episode two?

[Rachel]

Girl.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

We didn't even kiss.

[Rachel]

Girl.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Girl.

[Rachel]

Girl.

[Josh]

Stay tuned for episode three. When completely different happens,

[Ashley]

that's the best anybody's looked in their own sweat. Season three. I mean, episode three. Like, how did they do that? How did they put him in like a long sleeve shirt that, like, showed so much.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I know.

[Ashley]

Well, I know it was like, I

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

think it was Under Armour.

[Ashley]

Exquisitely done. I know.

[Josh]

But like, come on, Under Armour stock goes up by a bunch of heterosexual women buying, buying Under Armour for their men.

[Ashley]

And the fact that he's like, what? His, like, French name in real life is, like, even hotter.

[Josh]

Francois. He lived in France. He lived in France in the summers growing up with his dad. I saw a video.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

I saw video.

[Josh]

Stop it. Well, if you could have told me, like, in urology training that I'd be hanging out podcasting about erotica with amazing other urologists, I'd be like, sign me

[Ashley]

up for this life, because it's just the best thing ever.

[Josh]

All in the name of educating the general population.

[Dr. Gonzalez]

That's right.

[Josh]

Thank you, friends. Until next time, girl.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

If you found this episode funny, helpful, insightful, please take a moment to follow writing and share the you Are Not Broken podcast with someone who might need this conversation too. That support is how this information reaches more people. And thank you for courses, books and my monthly membership and the Casperson clinic information, visit KellyCaspersonMD.com this podcast and all content from Dr. Kelly Casperson is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and this is not a substitute substitute for individual medical coaching or psychological advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the guidance of your qualified healthcare professional with any questions you may have regarding your health. Never disregard or delay medical advice because of something you've heard on this or other podcasts. Thanks for being here. And remember, you are not broken.