310. Redefining Masculinity and Safety

Summary

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Podcast Summary: You Are Not Broken

Episode 310: Redefining Masculinity and Safety
Date: March 30, 2025
Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson
Guest: Trevor Boehm

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Kelly Casperson sits down with Trevor Boehm—a two-time TEDx speaker, author, and leader in men’s wellness spaces—to explore the changing definitions of masculinity, the essential role of safety in relationships and sex, and the often unseen needs and vulnerabilities of men. Blending humor, personal stories, and social insight, the discussion pushes against cultural assumptions and highlights new possibilities for connection, growth, and mutual understanding across genders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Meeting Trevor Boehm & His Path to Men’s Work

• Trevor describes his unexpected path from spiritual projects and a book on heartbreak (Today I Rise) to men’s coaching after hearing directly from men in pain ([02:27]).
• He describes talking to dozens of men who were, "in a really bad place in my divorce...this really helped me" ([03:42]).
• Kelly reflects on the importance of following opportunities the universe offers, even with resistance, and Trevor shares how daunting it was to take on men's issues amid the cultural climate of #MeToo ([07:05], [08:04]).

Quote:
"I just talked to dudes who first of all were like, why do you want my number? ...And I got all of this street level data on how men were suffering and what they were going through."
—Trevor Boehm, [04:25]

Redefining Masculinity: Beyond Stereotypes

• Trevor redefines masculinity as an orientation to the world—a broad spectrum from primal to creative/relational ([13:22]).
• He emphasizes it's not about clichés but about being grounded, centered, and authentic ([15:00]).
• Trevor invokes the David Deida metaphor: "the masculine is the mountain, the feminine is the storm and the clouds and the rain around it" ([14:16]).

Quote:
"Are you orienting yourself in a way that feels authentic to you as a man? Now, whether that's gay, straight, in between, poet, anything that's on the less, quote, American, masculine side...Are you comfortable? Are you happy? ...That's masculine to me."
—Trevor Boehm, [15:35]

The Role of Safety: Emotional and Physical

• Safety is identified as foundational for intimacy, sex, and healthy relationships ([16:35], [17:20]).
• Trevor shares a pivotal story: a date telling him, "You think I'm scared of him, but I’m way more scared of you" ([18:46]).
• This awareness motivated Trevor’s own deep personal work, focusing on becoming truly, not just performatively, safe ([20:00]).

Quote:
"What happens when the door shuts and I'm in the room with you? ...Until it's not my words that make women feel safe or people feel safe. It's literally my presence."
—Trevor Boehm, [19:10]

• Practical tips for men include self-awareness of reactions, doing actual therapeutic work (not just journaling), and learning to verbalize emotional states ([24:24], [24:14]).

Therapy for Men: What Works, What Doesn’t

• The hosts discuss how traditional therapy is often oriented toward women’s needs and isn’t always effective for men ([29:02]).
• Men often seek therapists who "meet them where they're at," provide accountability, and sometimes match a masculine energy ([30:16]).
• Trevor shares stories of good and bad therapy, highlighting the power of directness and being "held to the fire" in his healing process ([31:30]).

Gender Differences: Understanding and Misunderstandings

• Trevor and Kelly explore day-to-day misunderstandings, emotional and practical differences, and celebrate how these can complement each other ([33:59], [34:37]).
• Trevor encourages couples to stop imposing their own frames and expectations and to offer more grace ([37:00]).

Memorable Moment:
Trevor’s analogy—men as Hondas, women as flying Ferraris—captures the difference in physical/emotional complexity and maintenance ([38:17]).

Divorce, Desire, and Relationship Change

• Kelly notes 70% of divorces are initiated by women, up to 90% among educated women ([40:38]).
• Trevor attributes this to shifts in women’s autonomy, the fading of legal/financial dependencies, and increased criteria for what men must bring to a relationship ([41:24]).
• He discusses gendered double standards: women are cheered for leaving relationships, men are often shamed ([45:40]).
• Both reflect on the need to renegotiate marriage and sexual expectations, but lament the lack of dialogue and self-work to support it ([48:29], [49:41]).

Sex, Communication & Cultural Roadblocks

• They dive into why conversations about sex are so rare and fraught, citing immaturity and lack of skill in emotional self-regulation ([50:23]).
• Trevor observes a shift: more men now reach out wanting deeper connection and emotional presence ([54:00]).
• Both agree the communication norms in communities like kink/swinging could be models for mainstream relationships ([50:45]).

Quote:
"The women are the canary in the coal mine of relationships."
—Trevor Boehm, [54:00]

Porn: Risks, Reluctance, and Use

• Trevor discusses the hazards of porn for most men, comparing it to giving alcohol to a population with a high risk of addiction ([55:52]).
• He describes outgrowing porn—realizing he sought it for anxiety relief, not sexual satisfaction ([56:53], [57:17]).
• Emphasizes communication, self-awareness, and understanding underlying needs for sustainable, healthy behavior ([59:56]).

Menopause & Men’s Understanding of Women’s Bodies

• Kelly points out how male partners are often uninformed about menopause and its effects ([59:22]).
• Trevor’s community of men are more informed, ask thoughtful questions, and genuinely want to understand their partners as full humans ([60:39]-[61:30]).

Quote:
"My guys view their partners as humans first...not my sexual delivery service...This is a human."
—Trevor Boehm, [61:05]

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Notable Quotes & Moments – With Timestamps

• “[The book] was written for everybody. At no point did I think, I’m going to work with men." —Trevor Boehm [02:34]
• "You don't have a drinking problem. You just don't know what to do with yourself." —Trevor Boehm [05:02]
• "The universe needed you to be used for a purpose and you leaned into it 100%." —Dr. Kelly Casperson [06:51]
• "This is not my sexual delivery service…This is a human." —Trevor Boehm [61:05]
• "Women are the canary in the coal mine of relationships." —Trevor Boehm [54:00]
• “If pastors can stand in front of large microphones and say, ‘Hey, we need another private jet because that's what God wants’…I can stand up and say: do you know what, fellas? Maybe therapy isn’t the end of the world.” —Trevor Boehm [11:40]
• "Safety is 101. You can’t run into desire if you don’t feel safe." —Dr. Kelly Casperson [16:35]
• "If I say, hey, I’m going to go take care of these five things, I can go and watch her completely relax because I’ve created a container within which that chaos can live." —Trevor Boehm [35:38]

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Important Timestamps

• Meeting Trevor, TEDx background: [00:18]-[02:33]
• How masculinity is defined and experienced: [13:09]-[15:35]
• Physical and emotional safety stories: [17:20]-[22:10]
• Advice for men on safety & relationship skills: [22:10]-[28:21]
• Therapy for men: challenges and solutions: [29:02]-[33:50]
• Men vs. women: misunderstandings and examples: [33:59]-[39:09]
• Divorce, shifting gender roles, relationship maintenance: [40:38]-[49:41]
• Sex, negotiation, and communication breakdowns: [48:29]-[51:05]
• Porn: risks and relationship impacts: [55:24]-[59:56]
• Menopause, men’s understanding of women’s bodies: [59:22]-[65:25]
• Trevor’s retreats, books, and more: [65:44]-[68:33]

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Outro & How to Find the Guest

• Trevor is launching a new book, 28 Days in Darkness, chronicling a month in pitch-dark retreat ([66:04]).
• His workshops, including with therapist Dewey Freeman, are at manuncivilized.com and on Instagram at @traverboehm ([65:44]).
• Trevor plans a 49-day darkness retreat, with updates possible via Instagram/podcast ([66:16]-[67:10]).

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Takeaways

• Masculinity is broader, more nuanced, and more emotionally connected than mainstream stereotypes allow.
• Safety—for all genders—starts with deep self-awareness and emotional responsibility, not just physical protection.
• Healthy relationships increasingly demand ongoing dialogue, courage, and skill-building, especially about sex and vulnerability.
• Learning and respecting each other's lived experiences—whether about gender, sex, or hormonal shifts—builds the trust on which deeper connection is possible.
• There’s growing cultural momentum for men to do emotional work together—and this benefits everyone.

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For more:

• Visit manuncivilized.com
• Instagram: @traverboehm
• Dr. Kelly Casperson’s resources at kellycaspersonmd.com

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This summary excludes advertisements and promotional outro content, focusing on the core discussion between Dr. Casperson and Trevor Boehm.

Transcript

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Welcome to the youe Are Not Broken podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kelly Casperson, a

board certified urologist, thought leader and conversation

starter on midlife living, hormones and sexuality. Enjoy the show.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the youe're Not Broken podcast. I have a friend on Trevor Boem and God, we met through people. That's like such a good way to start a podcast. But he is basically, I don't know, breaking down barriers and redefining the definition of masculinity and I think helping the genders communicate better and also all while spending time in solitude. So he's just an interesting. He's just an interesting dude and I thought it'd be fun to have a chat with him.

[Trevor Boehm]

Thank you for having me on. I appreciate the intro that way.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thanks for coming on my podcast. We connected through. So I gave like a TEDx talk and then I've got like some speaking, like adult theater camp basically. And like, you know, some of those people and they were like, you've got to meet Trae because they love what you're doing. And that's like how this happened.

[Trevor Boehm]

Yeah, I watched your TED Talk live. I was there hiding in the audience.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Well, now I'm embarrassed.

[Trevor Boehm]

It's okay. I was, I was incognito.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Did you. Hold on. Did you say hi to me?

[Trevor Boehm]

I don't think I said hi to you. I did not say.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I was like, oh crap.

[Trevor Boehm]

We shook hands, we had pictures.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had dinner that

[Trevor Boehm]

night I met your kids.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yes. So yeah, you're in the TEDx world. You gave a TEDx one or two?

[Trevor Boehm]

I gave two.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

See, I hang out with people who give multiple TEDx talks, so I have to catch up. Why two?

[Trevor Boehm]

The first one was like I will describe as the invisible step, meaning I didn't know what it would do and I thought it was going to propel my career in a different direction. It was all about this year long project that I did called the Year to Live project, where I lived an entire year as if it were my last. And like blogged about it and went all in on it, kind of a spiritual quest. And I thought that talk would launch me towards teaching people that and working with them. And it didn't. What ended up coming out of it, long story short, was at the end of that year I wrote a book about divorce and heartbreak. And how do you use this as a transformational agent? And then here's the invisible step part. Men started reaching out to me from that book, which I thought was insane. I did not expect that to happen.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Was the book written for men?

[Trevor Boehm]

The book was written for everybody.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

For everybody. Okay.

[Trevor Boehm]

At no point did I think, I'm going to work with men. This is my avenue, this is my calling, et cetera.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And what was the name of that book?

[Trevor Boehm]

It's called Today I Rise Today Arise.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Boehm]

And it's basically. It was, my buddy challenged me, Kelly. He said, I finished this year project. I was living in someone's house for free. I had revenue coming from selling a business, and I was super depressed because I didn't have anything to do. And he goes, why don't we create an email funnel? Why don't you write 60 emails to you, the you who woke up two years ago and heard that your wife was leaving that day, one per day. And I was like, okay, I can do this. And I wrote the emails in like six weeks and then sat there, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna turn this into 90 individual letters to someone who had the same experience, and I'm gonna publish it as a book. And boom, I did. And then somewhere in there, I remember thinking, like, do I do this? Do I not do this? I'm like, email me if you feel like it. Here's my email address. And again, thought nothing would come of it. I start getting emails from men saying, hey, thank you so much. I'm in a really bad place in my divorce. I've been drinking, I'm out of shape, I'm uninspired. This really helped me or my buddy, my brother, my son, my father, et cetera, is going through the same thing. And it seems like you're doing really well and they're not. So thank you. And anytime a guy emailed me himself, I would reply, what's your phone number? I'd love to get on a call with you. I had time, I had space. And so for almost a year, Kelly, I just talked to dudes who first of all were like, why do you want my number? I'm like, don't worry about. Just call me.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You're like, you reached out to me, dude.

[Trevor Boehm]

Yeah. Yeah, seriously, you emailed me. And I got all of this, like, street level data on how men were suffering and what they were going through. And I could, for whatever reason, however I'm put together and what I went through in that year to live. I could start to categorize the problems that guys are having and I'd say, hey, you don't have a drinking problem. You just don't know what to do with yourself. Or you're ashamed of being powerful. You're ashamed of your sexual desires. You're ashamed of the fact that you're sensitive. You're in one of two camps. I kind of couched it of like, you need to get in touch with your primal aspects of life. Go outside, chop some wood, deadlift, eat a steak. Like, go fuck some shit up. Or you got to stop chopping wood and eating steak.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

The people who were chopping wood and eating steak needed to go do find their feelings. And then the feeling people needed to go deadlift. Yes.

[Trevor Boehm]

It was like, you need to actually know how to be in a relationship. You need to know how to connect with someone. You need to actually be okay with the fact that you're really sad and you're masking that through drinking cocaine, an affair, or whatever it is. So I couched it as the primal and the divine. And that was somewhere in between. The two men found themselves and they needed to extend into the other. And so when Kimberly said, hey, are you interested in coming back on the TED stage? I said, yeah, but I'm going to be changing directions. I want to speak to men specifically or talk about what's happened in my life over the past two years of having an idea of, hey, guys, what if we were allowed to have access to both sides of the masculine coin? The sensitive, soft, emotionally intelligent, you know, creative, poetic side and the more harder, traditional side. What if we were allowed both? And that my life exploded when I put that out publicly. And all of a sudden I went from a guy with a TED Talk and a divorce book to needing a website and then an assistant, and now a team of six and now a staff of 14 and flying all over the world to talk about this and lead workshops and courses. And it just. It just right out of nowhere where I was like, well, I guess I'm ditching this year to live idea and I'm probably not going to be an acupuncturist anymore. Okay, let's run with this dude thing.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I mean, it's like there's so many cool things, but one of them is like the unit. Whatever you want to think about this, give me your opinion. But it's like the universe needed you to be used for a purpose and you leaned into it 100%.

[Trevor Boehm]

I will tell you, though, I had resistance to it. I remember the. There was a night I had all of this idea I had uncivilized, planned out, and I was going to speak to a mentor. And this was a very, very brilliant human being. And I remember talking to him for about 45 minutes, saying, like, this is where I think men are struggling. This is what I see. This is how I think I can help. And I stopped talking. And he was dead silent. And he was dead silent for, like, too long to where I'm like, he hates my idea. He thinks I'm an idiot. I'm waiting for the shoe to drop. And he just goes, damn, man. Do you have any idea of how you can affect the world? And then he paused again, Kelly. And this is where he hit me. He goes, do you have any idea how this is going to affect your world? And I was like, nope, not doing it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like, I finally got comfy, right? Like, you're finally. You finally did your healing, and now you're telling me, like, you know, we're going to shake it up again.

[Trevor Boehm]

Yeah. And this was right in the middle of me, too. This was right in the middle of all men are bad. Toxic masculinity. Let's get rid of anything male.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I'm not sure we're over that yet. I mean, there was an election. There was an election. I'm not sure we're over yet. I mean, you're more boots on the ground than me. Tell me what you're. Tell me how it's changing.

[Trevor Boehm]

Back then, I think this was 2018, 2017, 18. It was just straight up. Anything masculine is bad.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You couldn't say anything because you'd be judged by saying it because you're a man.

[Trevor Boehm]

Yeah, my. One of my really good friends, Connor Beaton, has a podcast called Man Talks. That's his whole business. And it was basically like getting groups of guys together and talking to them or having them talk. He would literally be called a misogynist. Anything you can think of for using the word man in the name of his business. He's like, you guys realize I'm trying to help men. I'm getting men into therapy. Like, men talking is a good thing, but just that word would get him attacked. And even back then, me just even speaking to men would get me attacked. I could speak about men, but I said, hey, guys, here's how you change your life. Why aren't you talking to women? Why aren't you talking to less fortunate communities? Why aren't you talking to black people? Why aren't. Like, how dare you do this? I was like, well, these are the guys shooting up schools and killing themselves, so why don't we talk directly to them? You're a Nazi. You're. This. It was insane.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

So you were like. You were like, I'm not sure I should do this 100%. Yeah, but was it you were seeing that people were getting help and getting better? Is that why you stuck with it?

[Trevor Boehm]

This is. I just went to battle one night, if you want the truth. Like that conversation. I laid in bed that night going, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. It's easy and safe for me to go back to year to live stuff everybody wants. That's like, universally embraced.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Easy, easy, easy.

[Trevor Boehm]

Self help, easy sell, right? And I can know I can make money. I was also getting negative business advice. So, like, men aren't going to buy anything. You're looking at the wrong market.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Men don't want to talk.

[Trevor Boehm]

They don't want to talk. They don't want to spend money on workshops. They want to spend money on self development. If it'll build a six pack, six figures, or get them laid, that's it. That's where your money is. Not in, hey, I want to teach you how to express yourself fully or be patient with your kids or etc. So I remember lying there and just going, you know what? Fuck it if this ruins my life, if I'm canceled in two weeks, if I'm ostracized from society from doing this, I'm willing to take that chance and I'll rebuild my life afterwards. I have other shit I can fall back on and made the decision and pulled the trigger. And then within a week, my life was insane. So, yeah, the universe supported me. I just needed me to come to terms with the possible amount of change.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's so badass. I mean, it's. It always comes back to, like, us giving ourselves permission. For me, I was waiting for somebody to tell me I knew enough to start a podcast about sexual health, right? I was like, well, you know, I was only a doctor and a surgeon. I did not have enough qualifications. And, like, was literally waiting. And then, you know, the universe, I had lightning strike my head, and it's like, the only permission you need is your own. And I was like, that's who I. Cause the whole time I was like, I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for somebody. I'm waiting for somebody to give permission. I'm waiting. And then I was like, oh, I'm waiting for me. And it's like, once you've got that, then you're like, I got your back. Like. And you know, like, you, like you'd had something shitty happen to you before. You knew you didn't die. You could do that again.

[Trevor Boehm]

And I had good people around me. But mostly it was just the decision. I'm willing to go through the entire process and I'm not selling widgets, I'm not selling snake oil. I'm actually believing what I do. I know it works. If pastors can stand in front of large microphones and say, hey, we need another private jet because that's what God wants from this congregation. So send in another hundred grand. I could stand up and say, do you know what, fellas? Maybe therapy isn't the end of the world. And it would behoove us all to get a little more sober and work on our trauma. By the way, if you want to buy my book, it's $30. I make three off of that. Like, go with. I think I'm in good graces here.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Totally. So many doctors are. They're really shy about like sharing their knowledge on things like YouTube or blah blah, blah. And I'm like, dude, there's people giving astrological business advice and making a ton of money doing it. Turns out a lot of America believes in astrology for business, for business advice. So to me I'm like, listen, like, you know, other people are doing it.

[Trevor Boehm]

There's a seven year old on YouTube right now talking about toys making eight figures. I think.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I rest my case. Go do the thing, people. That's what we're telling you to do. Even if it scares you. It's probably, that's probably okay. Like it's a whole. Like it scares you. Do it anyways.

[Trevor Boehm]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

So can I not to drop? I asked somebody what the definition of feminism was a couple of episodes ago and wasn't sure if I was going to get murdered for asking that. So can I do the same thing to you and say, what's your definition of masculinity?

[Trevor Boehm]

It's the way men orient themselves in the world. That's the best way I can describe it. It's the way we orient ourselves in the world. It is a giant spectrum. So on one end of the spectrum is I orient myself in the world as a man more towards the primal side. I'm interested in nature, I'm interested in the cycles, I'm interested in hunting. I'm interested in more aloneness. I'm interested in this particular mission and purpose. This is how I orient myself in the world. The other end of the spectrum is I orient myself more creatively, I orient myself more relationally. But I do it from a place that is grounded, that is like the Number one, when I look at a man and go, are you in touch with your masculinity? Are you grounded? Are you stable? Are you centered? David Data used the image of, like, the men are. The masculine is the mountain. The feminine is the storm, and the clouds and the rain around it. Cool. You can take that for what it's worth. Take it or leave it. So, to me, it is an orientation that most men have and how they relate to the world. And I know that's a bit of a vague answer, but. But it's not something that I can put a pen on and say simply, you have a dick, you like to chop wood, you like to eat steak, you like to fuck women. It's nothing like that. And I think getting it that narrow is what has troubled us, or at least in the last 30, 40 years, 50 years. I'm not a historian, but I do know there were times when the creative end was the more celebrated end of the masculinity. Look what he's doing. Or the internal side. A monk is masculine, as opposed to in America. It's just progress. It's just entrepreneurship. It's just hypersexuality. It's a character. It's the Dan Bilzerian model, if you know who that guy is. Or it's Trump right now, right? Like, look at the man. He's conquering, and he's bringing all these people together. Well, let's look, but let's peek behind the curtain. It's Elon. He's a visionary. He's out there doing all this stuff. So I simply say to the men in my world, it's. Are you orienting yourself in a way that feels authentic to you as a man? Now, whether that's gay, straight, in between, poet, anything that's on the less, quote, American, masculine side of the spectrum? Are you comfortable? Are you happy? Are you on point? Do you sleep well at night? Do you feel like you're in relationship with the world, with God, with whomever, with the people around you? Beautiful. That's masculine to me. Go to the other end of the spectrum. Are you a 1967 Mustang, driving wood chopping raw steak, eating sex four times a day? Deadlifting, Muscular. He man, dude. Cool. Are the people around you safe? Do they feel comfortable in your presence? Are you the peace and calm that walks into the room? Have you done your work on the back end so that you are actually a safe human, even though you say, I'm safe Cause I own guns? Have you gone to therapy? Have you dealt with your shit so both ends. Have you dealt with your shit? Really? It comes down to me, Kelly, of like, how are the people around you and how are you sleeping at night?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. I think safety is not something we're talking a lot about, and I think it is basic. It's 101. You can't run into, like, unless you're walking in a relationship, in a workplace. It's certainly with sex. Certainly with sex. I see it all the time. Women will come in and they're like, I don't desire sex. And, like, you gotta go back to the. Even the. Like, do you even feel safe? Are you safe in your body? Are you safe with your partner? Right. Of, like, it is so basic. And nobody's taught about it. Nobody's even taught to think about safety because they're like, well, like, there isn't a car driving through my wall right now sort of safe. Or the weather's okay. It's like, not that kind of safe. Internal safety.

[Trevor Boehm]

Yeah. We have a maxim here, and in some ways, it's just, let others be safe, for I walk among them. And that was from my old bodyguarding days. And here's a quick story that really, really shifted me drastically. I was on a first date in New York City years and years ago and was leaving the restaurant with this woman. So I just met her, you know, an hour ago, and we're walking back to the subway platform, and I can see this guy sort of sauntering ahead of us towards us. He's either homeless or a little bit mentally unstable or drunk or one of the two. Like, he was closest to her. And again, I have a decade or five or six years of professional protection. So just, like, shifted myself, put myself between her and him, took a step forward so that at no point was he, like, directly in access to her and did it quietly. We kept talking, and then about 10ft later, she goes, I know what you just did. I was like, yeah, this is how I live. And she goes, I'm going to be honest with you. You think I'm scared of him, but I'm way more scared of you. And I was like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I was a professional fighter. I was a bodyguard. Like, I said to her, literally, this is probably the safest you've ever been walking in New York City. And she got a little fiery with me and goes, cool. What happens when we get home tonight and I turn you down for sex and you have all of that size and all of that skill and all of that training? And you're mad.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

She was honest.

[Trevor Boehm]

Honest, right. She goes, what happens when you get angry with me for the first time? You get triggered or you lose control? What happens then? And I was like, I was like, okay, shit. Oh, you're not worried about the outside world so much as you are. What happens when the door shut and I'm in the room with you? And that started a cascade of conversations in my own head and then a cascade of work. I think, okay, I'm going to go back to therapy. I'm going to figure out the shit I still have left over with my mom. I'm going to figure out the shit I still have left over with my. Okay, I'm gonna do this and do this and do this and do this. Until it's not my words that make women feel safe or people feel safe. It's literally my presence. Because all that shit under the surface, like the deep therapy, the crying and snobbing in the, in the offices, the going to workshops and being honest with other men, whether it is plant medicine, for some people, that was helpful. Just getting to where I'm clearing out all of those old landmines so that when she steps on them or my current partner steps on them, they don't go off. And I am safe. Not just from the surface up, where I go, cool, Four guns in the house, a black belt. I can bench360. Of course you're safe. Which is where most men are stuck, especially as you said, sexually, where talk about a vulnerable position and talk about a trigger happy position for stuff to get poked or misunderstood or ego to come in into play or anything to come into play. I think we need a radical redefinition of safety, especially for guys that most of us are like me. Like, how do you not feel safe? There's guns in the house. Like I've literally said that. I think I've said that in my marriage. Like, there's. There are three guns in the house. How do you not feel? Oh, oh, you don't still feel safe? Because I'm blackout drunk two nights a week. Oh, okay, that's.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Or you get really not. You. Like one. One can get very loud, right? And like very overbearing. And it's, it's like, well, I know your voice is big and it's low and it's loud, but like it's unsafe, right? Like it's so much that I think some people don't realize, like they're just not aware of their power and how much smaller other people are and like Even though it's like, but I love you, it's like, yeah, and it's still really big.

[Trevor Boehm]

I remember having to work through in my marriage the first time my ex wife said, but you're so much bigger than me. And I'm 5, 10, 100, and at the time was £175 and had spent my professional fighting career looking at people who were 6, 4 to 26, 5, 300, and being a 14 year old kid at one point who hadn't broken £100 yet and was skinny and gangly and being made fun of, that was the imprint that I still had. Walking the earth was like, wait a minute, I'm not that much bigger than you. I'm seven inches taller and 60 pounds heavier than you. That's nothing in the, you know, I was like, oh wait, I am much bigger than you. Shit, I'm not 14 anymore. I'm 35. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

What are your tips for men to help them create a safe environment for women? I mean, I think number one is like, just understand that women feeling safe is like a game changer. But like, what tips would you have for guys?

[Trevor Boehm]

I remember writing a piece years ago, Kelly and I talked to guys about saying, imagine being the new guy on a prison yard and you're the smallest guy out there and everybody there wants to fuck you and you do not want that. How would you feel for a half hour walking around until you'd made friends, until you knew someone and then you had no physical training. You just knew that at any point, if someone wanted to harass you, mess with you, physically do something to you, you were probably at their will. And the response I got back was like, this would be the worst day of my life. This would be terrible. I would definitely want to shank. And the guys responding to the article and I said, this is to some degree how women feel all day, every day. And they probably started feeling that way at like 11, not at 22 when they were out in a mini skirt at a club, just from 11 or whatever the age is. And so recognizing that first. So just noting like, hey, we live in different worlds. Very, very, very different worlds. And I still to this day catch myself with that. Right. I was in Costa Rica for the past couple months. I was at a woman's house and she's like, you don't lock your front door. I'm like, no, if someone breaks in here, I'm gonna fucking destroy them. She's like, will you lock your door when I'm here? I was like, no, because if someone breaks in, I'm gonna say, well, what if you're not? Just lock your door. I was like, oh, I'm actually a tiny bit excited by the idea that someone would break in here, because then I get to practice all these skills that I spent years and years. I don't want someone to break in. Like, how radically different our worlds were, right?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And for her, even if she wasn't at home, knowing somebody had entered the home, even if she wasn't there, is very unsafe for her.

[Trevor Boehm]

It's totally unsafe. So I think the recognition point is that first for guys like, your buddy lives in your world, your brother lives in, like, we just live in two separate worlds, period. So accept that. And then what is the work that we actually can do? I wish someone, when I was 30, had said to me, before I got married, your reactions will scare her way more than the outside world will. So learn to deal with those. And you don't deal with those by writing in a notebook. No more reactions. No more reactions. I will not get mad at you. Next time, it won't happen. Next time, it won't happen. Next time it won't happen. But actually doing the work, and I don't care whether it's therapy, men's workshops, a men's circle, you gotta deal with that shit. And it's not saying that men are supposed to be untriggerable. I still get triggered. I still get angry. I still get emotional, But I have a really, really good beat on it and can say now I can verbalize. I'm getting angry. I'm gonna step out of the room now. I'm really fucking angry. I'm gonna step out of the room now. This conversation needs to stop for five minutes. I'm getting. I feel my body getting heated. I'm getting activated. Just being able to put voice to that is so different than. And I'll say it, you know, in my marriage of like, I don't know what happened, but now there's a hole in the wall. Fuck, that'll never happen again. Until the next time it happens. Until the next time I throw something until the next time I get triggered. And instead of it being a slow dial of like, anger, anger, anger, anger, anger, anger, anger, anger, rage. It was a switch that went from calm as a cucumber to rage. And there was no process. There was no time. There was no space for me to actually be in relationship with my own emotion, to be able to put voice to it, or for my partner to watch the elevation and even her to say, hey, I can tell you're getting really triggered right now. Why don't we take a breath, go outside, and let's come back and continue this conversation in 10 minutes. So I'm not sure if I've answered your question, and I know this word scares the shit out of so many men because it used to scare the shit out of me, but being intimate with your own inner workings is probably the best thing you can ever do. I'm not going to make myself shorter. I'm not going to lose 60 pounds of muscle. I'm not going to. I'm not gonna go from a brown belt to a white belt. I'm not gonna all of these things. But if my partner knows that I know myself and the women around me can feel that I've actually done the work because I'm sitting here calm, I'm grounded, my energy isn't all over the place, my eyes aren't fucking everybody in the room. It's clear. It's so clear, Kelly, I'll tell you super, super fast. We did a co ed workshop two years ago in the Dominican. And 90% of the men who came had been in one of my programs for probably a year or longer. So they've come through workshops, they've gone to therapy, they've done deep work, like crying, snotting on the floor while other men hold them type work. And I remember the second or third day of the workshop, one of the women speaking up and saying, I have to tell you guys something, stop the whole place. And was like, this is so beautiful, but so unsettling to me to be around so many men who are this calm. I'm not used to it. Like, no one's gotten angry, no one's yelled, no one's spoken over us, no one's interrupted me. I don't feel like anybody's trying to fuck me from across the room. Like, I love it. And I'm so uncomfortable because this is so new. And we got the guys together the next day and we're like, do you guys see this? This is what they're used to. You guys aren't common. This is what uncivilized means to me. Now go get other men and bring them in because this is what we want to populate the world with. Because didn't it feel good for you to hear that? Doesn't it feel good for you to know, let others be safe, for I walk among them? Doesn't mean that you have an AR15 on your back and a knife in your pocket. It means you're not part of the problem.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. You're not problematic with a T shirt

[Trevor Boehm]

that says I'm the solution because I can lift weights and eat steak.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

God, it's awesome. You know what I've heard? I don't remember who I heard this from, but I want your opinion that the way that therapy as a culture and the schools of therapy and what you're supposed to do in therapy schools as a culture aren't as, I'm going to say it wrong, but aren't as like, they're not developed for men, they're not as supportive for men. Men struggle a lot more with like the traditional American therapy. What's your opinion on that? And how. And how do you find somebody that can support a man in therapy?

[Trevor Boehm]

You're preaching to the choir. In three weeks, I teach a workshop with Dewey Freeman, a male therapist called how to Work with Men. And it's all for therapists and coaches because the standard western therapeutic model, for whatever reason, and it's not a conspiracy, is oriented towards women. If you go to therapy school, 90% of the faculty are women, 90% of the attendees are women. Why wouldn't it be oriented towards women? I would imagine that the vast majority of therapy clients are women, so it should be oriented towards women. But it doesn't really work well for us. And I've had a number of men come into my own programs and say, hey, I've tried therapy. It didn't really work for me. I want to get in a room with someone who's going to challenge me, who's going to give me some homework, who's going to call me on my bullshit and for whatever reason can meet me.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

They want somebody to kind of call them on it. They don't want to be like, you're totally safe and accepting here and you're just fine as you are, and let's feel some feelings like that's not what they want. Whereas the woman wants to feel safe. She spent her whole life not feeling safe. So therapy is a safe spot for

[Trevor Boehm]

her, a hundred percent. It's so different. And there's a thing in the male culture around couples therapy is oriented towards, let's figure out what he did wrong and let's talk about that. There isn't accountability on both sides. If we go to individual therapies again, I'm going to use the idea of being met. And I'll tell you two different stories of my own therapeutic experience. I went to therapy with my ex wife and this male therapist sat and Listened to us. And then at the end, he looked at me very softly and said, I have to tell you something. I think you have so much PTSD left over from being a professional fighter. What I need you to do is go home this afternoon and hug yourself in the mirror and apologize wholeheartedly for putting yourself through that experience. And we left. And I remember getting in the car and being like, what the fuck was that? And even my ex wife, like, bursting out laughing. Don't worry, we never have to go back to that guy ever again. It was useless. Now I need the therapy. I got divorced. She left. I needed. Clearly needed therapy. The next therapist I had was a Jungian. He was a surfer. He was a bigger guy. And I was like, so what was your role in all of this? Like, one of the very first questions, like, meet me. Like, hey, man, I appreciate you. I get you. And how did you fuck up then? How did she fuck up? And I was with that man, Kelly, for a year, a full year. Changed my life. He actually passed away two weeks ago. It was such an impact on my life that when I found out he was sick last October, I drove from here to Santa Fe just to be with him for an hour and sit with him and say, you literally saved my life and changed the course of it by showing up in a way that I could handle, man to man, like, look me in the eye. Don't fucking tell me to go apologize to myself in a mirror for having a career. Meet me where I'm at. Danny would give me homework. That's something else that I hear from a lot of dudes, like at the end of a coaching session, like, here's what you're gonna do for me next week. By the time we meet next week, like, oh, good, I get to do something. I'm a huge proponent of therapy. I think all guys should go through it. And I don't wanna. This is gonna. This may get us in trouble. I tend to send men to male therapists. I've had brilliant female therapists, so I'm not shitting on them. But I tend especially new guys to therapy. And I've had men say this to me. I'm like, why do you listen to me? Because you have cauliflower ear and shoulders. So I feel like if you tell me it's okay to feel my feelings, it's okay for me to feel my feelings. And I don't know why that is in the male world, but it's like, if someone can beat the shit out of us, we listen to Them more hierarchy. Hierarchy, exactly. Right. It doesn't mean that all male therapists need to be fighters and weightlifters, but you have to have that part of you that goes, hey, brother, we're not fucking around anymore. You're about to get divorced. You're on your third divorce. You have a cocaine habit. You're drinking too much, you're having an affair with your secretary. Cut that shit out. Now let's figure out what's underneath that that's causing you to act so far out of integrity. That's very different than, I love you. You're so sweet and sensitive. This is the safest little space for you, my little tigress. We don't need another mom. We need someone to come in and go, all right, bro, I'm gonna love you through this, and I'm gonna fucking hold your feet to the fire.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, I'm not gonna abandon you, but you're the one who's gonna do the work. What do you think women and men get wrong about each other?

[Trevor Boehm]

That's a biggie. The fact that a woman. I can say like, hey, we're going to dinner, and it'll take 45 outfit changes and three decision changes, and all of this chaos will then ensue that I used to try to track and trace and calm down. Like, I stop that. Blah, blah, blah, and control as opposed to going, yeah, I get that. You're going to change your clothes five times, you're going to think we're going to the wrong restaurant four times, and you're going to be a little bit of a mess until I put my hand on your shoulder and go get in the car. We're doing great. We'll be at dinner in five minutes. Chaos.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Change.

[Trevor Boehm]

Let's say change. Chaos is a loaded word. Men are more singular. Singular, focus, grounded. Want to do one thing, and then when that thing's done, they want space to relax. So it is. You know, this is some of David Data's idea. Like, I want to build tension, tension, tension, Relax. I'm done. Don't bother me. Give me my space. Where women it's more of. I'm going to be constantly in change and flow and touching, and I can think of 19 different things at the same time. And I want to hold all of those in my head. I don't ever want to let any of them go because that empty space would be terrifying. Yet for us, that empty space is peace. So now that I'm in relationship, where I'm going, cool, I get it. You're all over the place and there's 50 things in your head and you're trying to take care of too much. If I say, hey, I'm going to go take care of these five things, I can go and watch her completely relax because I've created a container within which that chaos can live. Does this make sense? Am I speaking to esoterically for my partner to go, hey, if I'm reading something or working on something and it's not an emergency, don't distract me because then I'm going to stop my focus. I'm going to put all my focus on you. I'm going to then have to go back and re establish the focus with what I'm doing and I'm going to need to transition in between parts of my day and parts of my week. So if I come home from work and say, hey, I just need like a half hour to go stare at the ceiling. I need that to actually return to boyfriend partner for applicable father husband role. That stuff is necessary to my health, I think. Really what we. We just don't understand each other, Kelly. And we try to impose our life set and frames onto each other. It's shocking to me at this point, we just haven't figured out that we're different. We need each other. When we learn to celebrate the differences, things go great. I can laugh and be like, here's what's going to happen. I'm going to say, we're going to dinner now, or you're going to change your clothes seven times and we're going to walk out the door in the original outfit that you put on first. And so are you ready for this? I'm going to have the best time watching you watching me put my hand on the front door and you go, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're going to scream, sprint back to the bedroom and then come out in a different outfit and be like, okay, you ready? And then I'm going to turn the door handle and you're going to go, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're going to run back and you come back with different shoes. And I know it's a cliche example, but that used to frustrate me. That used to make me want to put my hands on my partner's shoulder and be like, just pick a fucking outfit. I don't care, but we're going to be late to dinner now. It's like, cool, let me sit back and watch the show. This is going to be amazing. This is going to be so fun. But that, like, I know it's cliche, and I know women are more complex, and I'm not trying to minimize humans by giving more obtuse, cliche examples, but I think if women understood men and how we operate and how we exist in our bodies, there would be a bit more grace for us. And if men understood women and how they exist in the world and how what goes on in your bodies. Holy shit. Would we have more grace for you?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, my God, 100%. I'm like, dude, women create life.

[Trevor Boehm]

100%.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It is miracles. And to me, I'm like, how is it that every. A single day goes by and people are like, holy fuck, those. That group of people creates the life

[Trevor Boehm]

and then sustains it? It's crazy.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Crazy that, like, that. That's, like, ignored or worse than ignored, right? Like, it's like. It's so incredibly badass. Tell me if you like this metaphor. Maybe you've heard it, maybe you haven't, but somebody was explaining. We were just talking, like, bodies and, like, what bodies need and stuff like that. And they're like, dude, the man is a Honda. No disrespect to Hondas. You need Hondas. They get you around. They are safe. You know what you're gonna get. Like, it's a legit vehicle. It's a Honda. Pretty low maintenance. A woman's body. It's a fucking Ferrari. It's like, you got a tinker if things break. Like, it can cause pain. It might be expensive, but it's a fucking Ferrari. And to me, I'm like, I don't have a better. Better analogy of like, yeah, it's not. It's Honda. Don't think it's a. It's like a fucking Ferrari. But there's maintenance involved.

[Trevor Boehm]

Like, I would add this, okay, it's a Ferrari that can fly. So there's also the like. But it can't fly. It has four tires and an engine. But guess what? It flies. There's going to be this whole part that you're like, I just. But I don't understand how that part happens. Neither do I. You know what? Neither do they. And until we just go, there's the asterisks of the mystery. And not trying to actually logicize it. That's where I think we also, men are vastly emotional creatures and we exist in a logical manner. Women are highly logical creatures who often exist in an emotional manner. It doesn't mean that you don't have a logic that you can't do the other. But until we realize how you orient yourselves in the world and we realize how you orient yourselves in the world, we will not cooperate. I cannot sit with my back to the door in a restaurant. I can't do that. I just will be so uncomfortable. I'll be looking over my shoulder the entire time. Now I can go to dinner with my partner and have her sit where she's facing the door and I'm miserable. And her going, why aren't you present? Why aren't you paying attention? Why aren't you listening to me? Or we can just switch. And she goes, cool, thank you for watching the door. As opposed to her going, well, how many times has someone broken in and shot the place up? How many times have there been fires? How many times does this thing actually work? It's never happened. And I still can't sit with my damn back.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's a beautiful thing. One thing that I'm very interested in is if the statistics are true, 70% of divorces are initiated by women. If you have an educated woman in that scenario, 90% of those divorces are initiated by the woman. Men don't want to get divorced. Yes, Talk about that.

[Trevor Boehm]

It's such a big, big idea. Oh, man, this is a can of worms. At some point, you all women needed us. Needed, like, fully, capital N. And I know I'm speaking down, but please, just like, when were you allowed to have checking accounts without.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

1970s ended, like 1978 in America. I was alive. I was alive, right?

[Trevor Boehm]

Like, so that's not like, oh, the 1800s. That's not when there were, like, horses and buggies in the street. There were cars. There were like, that was society. At some point, you needed us to orient yourself to be safe in the world, to have money, to exist physically, to have, like, to buy a house, to have medical procedures. Like, you couldn't do shit without us. Now you can do whatever the fuck you want without us. And so the need, they're like, well, they need us has shifted. And you guys, women benefit from that choice. You can do whatever you want now. So now it isn't, well, I'll stay with my husband even though he's a dick or he drinks too much or I'm not getting my emotional needs met because I can't open a checking account without him or I'm going to have to be homeless without him. Now you have choice. And so I think there's a positive element to that, and then there's a shadow element to that. Positive element to that is if you can get Your physical, financial security, structural 3D needs met without a man, then that man needs to show up with something else. He needs to actually be able to connect with you emotionally to serve in a different manner. I will still say men are needed in relationship to actually hold the emotional container, to provide emotional safety, to actually be there physically to engage with you in different ways than like, here's the money, let's trade that for the kids and the sex and the. No, no, no. We don't speak until spoken to. So choice is this amazing thing that's now in the female collective. We don't have to have us, you don't have to have us. So I think a lot of women, especially because they grew up at a time watching mothers and grandmothers suffer and going, that will not be me. And then dealing with a guy who is underdeveloped in the non physical security areas, going, this is a mismatch. If I was being met spiritually, emotionally, sexually, energetically, why would I leave? But if you're not being met there and your needs aren't being met there, why would you stay and tolerate having another child in a grown man's body or someone who's antagonistic or someone who

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

is abusive or somebody that you have to. I hate the word nag, but like that you have to like prod a lot to get something done. I think it's two things. Number one, they watch their older generation suffer with a man in the house or they see houses with no men, so they don't even know what to do with. There's no role models there.

[Trevor Boehm]

Right?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's so big, like between those two. That's probably like 80% of the houses.

[Trevor Boehm]

So here's. That's like the positive now. Let's talk a little bit about the shadow of it, though. I do know because I've spoken to a number of women who left just saying, well, I thought I could be happier. And so there's also a bit of a Disneyization or Disney eyes, like, hey, there's something happier. There's. I know everything's great, but there could be more. There's a little bit of the grass is greener mentality now. I don't know how to say this culturally, Kelly. I've seen it. There's also. Let's start before I jump ahead. My mind's going fast. Men are taught to endure in relationship now. So it's like, I'm not having sex, I'm not getting my emotional needs met. I'm not happy. But this is what men do. We stick around. We don't leave. We stay. We're committed. I actually interviewed a female divorce attorney and said, why don't men leave? And I couldn't publish this podcast because she goes, because they've made a commitment. I said, do women not make the same commitment? She goes, yeah, they make a commitment, but they leave because they're committed to their own happiness. I don't know. We can say this publicly. Can we publish this? And I even asked her, do we need to rewrite vows? Like, do we need to reorganize the agreement that says, like, it's okay for me to find to leave if I'm not happy, but it's not okay for him to leave if he's not happy? And she was like. And we didn't publish the conversation, but I'll share with you. I saw two videos back to back, which whenever that happens to me, is enlightening. It was a woman saying, everything was great in my marriage. He was such a good guy. He was such a good provider. He was not negative in any way, but I thought I could be happier. So I left. And it was thousands of comments from other women saying, you go, girl. You seek it. Like, never settle, the world is yours. Yada, yada, yada. And then I scroll like two swipes lower and it's a guy saying, I'm finally free of an abusive relationship. Physically abusive, mentally abusive, emotionally abusive, financially abusive. And the comments underneath were like, you should have stuck it out. You weren't a real man. Why didn't you try harder?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Men are saying this to them. Men and women, men and women.

[Trevor Boehm]

Men and women. We celebrate the woman who leaves to go on degree in her pastures, but we vilify the male who does the same.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's totally true.

[Trevor Boehm]

So societally, we're a little bit confused still about. It's the same thing with, like, women can have a lot of standards in dating and men, it's like, but I really want this. And like, you're a pick. No, I want someone who's. Who likes athletics, like, oh, you just want someone who's young and blah, blah, blah. Just some societal double standards. But what I think the main, and I've talked about this and haven't figured it out, is that marriage and relationship as concepts need reorganizing.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

What they were created for no longer applies, but we're still doing it. And I think people can agree that children do well in a stable long term. Right? You can't be like, well for stability for children. I think it's A separate additional. And do single parents do well? Absolutely. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying, like, parenting is fucking hard. It's nice to have another adult around. Bonus points if you like that person and you get to have sex with that person and, like, that person's a friend and that person, like, you don't have to take care of that person.

[Trevor Boehm]

Right. There's no antagonism with that person. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

But it's like kids aside, because I think that's where the gray divorces, which is a big percentage of divorces now, gray divorces being kids, are out of the house. Maybe the career's either at the top or winding it down. You know, we're 45. We're 50, we're 55. Why the fuck are we still married? Especially when the sex goes away and it's a. The sex is so interesting because, like, I struggle with saying it because I'm kind of like you. Like, I want to be careful. I want to think about it thoroughly. But it's like two people got together because of sex. That is why it started, right?

[Trevor Boehm]

That's why you're not friends. You're not just friends.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, not just friends. It started because of sex. And if one person still wants it and the other person doesn't, first of all, that's happening, and people aren't capable of talking about it. So, like, they don't talk about it, and then that is the split. But, like, this acceptance of, like, this is just how it is. You should just put up with no sex when the other person's like, but this was a sexual relationship, and I like sex. And we don't know how to talk about it at all because we didn't know how to talk about it when it was good, let alone now. It's a big, big, big issue that

[Trevor Boehm]

is a can of worms. And I don't think we've gotten to a place societally where we can have a conversation about what other options there are within. How do we renegotiate the agreement?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right? Because, I mean, for a lot of people, you're talking. Millions of dollars would be split. Like, there is a big. I don't want to call marriage a business, but, like, there is a ton invested, 100%.

[Trevor Boehm]

I used to get in so much trouble for saying that marriage was a business contract. And people are like, no, it's about love. And, like, well, if there's financial and business ramifications, then it's a business contract. Right? It's a legal contract.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

There's tax implications to marriage and we

[Trevor Boehm]

aren't really or we've been conditioned. I know this is another wormhole from religion, from Puritanism, especially just in America to not say okay, is there any wiggle room here? Sexually, can we open the relationship? Sexually, can we play different roles? Sexually, can we try to spice things up ourselves? Sexually, can we just have a conversation that says I am not interested in celibacy but I'm also not interested in ending this marriage? What as two mature adults, which I think that's the big asterisk is we don't have two mature adults.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We don't. And we've never talked about sex ever in 35 years, right? Like there's so many, there's so much work to do.

[Trevor Boehm]

It's such a loaded topic. I got into the kink world, even the swing world and even the probably just say those two after divorce and was shocked at the level of communication

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

it's written into it.

[Trevor Boehm]

It has to be there right as just I said it was down in Costa Rica, I'm a shibari enthusiast, like the rope tying and was connected with a woman there to tie her as like my tying partner. And we had a two hour consent conversation and from the very get go she was clear, there will be no sex, there will be no clothes off, there will be no kissing, there will be no touching in sexual ways. There will be nothing in the sex category other than the fact that you're touching my body to tie it with rope. And we still had a two hour consent conversation. What are your traumas? How do you get triggered? What happens in the past? Tell me about this, tell me about that. What is okay? What's not okay? What happens if you start to get activated? What happens if I start to get activated with no sex thinking I got married to someone with less conversations and we didn't have, we didn't have like a 10 minute conversation. So two hours with no sex. I'm so grateful for it and I wish I could have every couple sit down but here's the thing, I'm going to say we can't have them have that because we have an epidemic lack of maturity in both men and women. I'd say women are a little bit more mature as a whole. But to have a couple sit down and go hey, I'm not sexually satisfied and not have one person blow up or have the person able to say just even the maturity it takes to say hey, I love you, I think you're great. Three years ago things in our bedroom were Amazing. I just don't feel that satisfied right now. How do we staying in partnership, staying in relationship, staying in communication, sort this out. Can we. Do we need to have a third party? Do we need to do some exploration? Okay, we're getting heated. How do we bring this back down? Just like we would or people would with like, hey, do you want to buy a new car? Hey, how are the kids doing in school? Hey, how are we doing as a couple? Like, this level of communication isn't happening because so many people are immature, haven't gone, I mean, just to keep using therapy, haven't done enough self work, like deep self work, to be able to hold their shit together when someone they love and care about is saying, hey, I'm not happy in this situation. And the women are the canary in the coal mine of relationships, right? Of, hey, I actually have needs that go a little bit deeper relationally. That's often women. But I'll tell you, here's an interesting swing, Kelly. Five years ago, my DMs were 90% women. Hey, how do I get my man to open up to be more vulnerable, to be more sensitive, to be more connected, be more present with kids, blah, blah, blah. Now it's probably 60, 40 men who have done some work saying, hey, guess what? Like, how do I get my woman to put her phone down at night? How do I get my woman to want to go connect with me emotionally? So the gap is closing. It's closing slowly. But this conversation with men and around men is actually happening. And it's happening. So it's late and I'm just going to not talk about the flyover states. But, like, it is happening, right? There's still a big lag, but I think it's so needed for this state of relationship. Or we're just not going to have sex with each other. We're going to AI robot. Like, I'm going to go get Natasha out of my closet and be like,

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

oh, your AI girlfriend can be delivered shortly.

[Trevor Boehm]

So shortly there's a problem with, I just unplug her, right? I'll be like, oh, but we're going to lose our humanity, we're going to lose our souls and we're going to lose the actual juice of life, which isn't the act of penetration or the orgasm. It's the laughter afterwards. It's the connection as we're lying there in bed holding each other. It's the next morning knowing, like, wow, I just had a really amazing experience thanks to that person's openness and care. And generosity and connection with me. That not just scares the shit out of me, but. Cause I can tell you, the vast majority of purchasers of AI girlfriends or robotic girlfriends will be men.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

100%. Why was the Internet invented?

[Trevor Boehm]

Amazon.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Amazon, right. Same day delivery. Yeah.

[Trevor Boehm]

It's like 97% naked people, dude.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like 70% of the video bandwidth is porn. Or I mean, it's something. I don't know if I got that statistic exactly correct, but it's unbelievable.

[Trevor Boehm]

Yeah. To think of how much bandwidth is out there going to that.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. What's your thought? I mean, as we wrap it up and we don't have all the time in the world, but what is your thought on porn? Is it a slippery slope? Does it make men think all women are sexual beings and only for sex? Like, should men handle with care? Is it a nice release when you want some dopamine every once in a while? What's the uncivilized group think about porn?

[Trevor Boehm]

It's a yes to everything that you said. The truth is, I don't think most men can handle it. So think of if 97% of the population had a predisposition to alcohol, then I would say to 97% of the population, just don't drink. Don't even touch it. So I think that's how most men are oriented is. Wow. This is visually stimulating. Wow. There's zero sense of rejection. Wow. I can find that particular thing that I've always wanted to do and I can live out my fantasy life that way. I think it is so fucking slippery and so attuned to the male needs now, like, there are MIT kids staying up all night figuring out how I can get three more pixels on the screen into my brain for me to keep watching. This thing, super addict.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's created to be highly addictive, 100% very palatable.

[Trevor Boehm]

And this is where I think we get in trouble. And I'll say this as someone who had an issue with porn. And I don't say I quit it, say I outgrew it. I went, oh. What I was actually seeking was anxiety relief. Like, I used to look at a lot of porn at the end of the month when my bills came. And there's nothing about Visa that turns me off.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It turns you on.

[Trevor Boehm]

Look, it's in the mailbox. I owe money to a credit card company. It was like, I don't know how to deal with my life. Let me check out for a minute. And so if we speak to a deeper issue, I think so many men are suffering from A lack of purpose from a lack of belonging, from a lack of access to their hearts and souls. I mean, that is a spiritual challenge. And the best, easiest, fastest, quickest, most guaranteed way to check out of that pain is porn. There's no smell on my breath. I'm not incapacitated for six hours.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You can do it in the privacy of your home.

[Trevor Boehm]

It's a secret, too, which is a big thing from. I get it. And I tell guys, like, hey, you're alone in a hotel room, and, you know, you're. You're so. And. And here's. Here's the final point. If you're in relationship, is it communicated about. Do you have an agreement? Like, hey, does your wife know that, like, when you travel and you're in a Motel 6 in Des Moines, you're jerking off the porn? Is that cool? Or is it going to risk you coming home and her getting on your computer and going, fuck, now your marriage is blown up. Can you use it responsibly? Just like you would say, hey, honey, I'm gonna go down to the bar and have a beer? Today was a tough day, but if you came home from a business trip and there was no conversation about alcohol and there was an empty six pack in your suitcase, that would be problematic. So if you're gonna use it, use it consciously. If you're in relationship. If you're not in relationship, are you using it for a sexual release or are you using it to numb another part of your life, which, if you addressed, you wouldn't even want to use the porn for? That's how I view it. I quit drinking 10 years ago. And people are like, do you ever want it? I'm like, no, I unfucked my life. Now I think, like, that sounds like a terrible idea. Just like, I used to spend six hours on a Saturday night in front of my computer with my pants in my ankles. Do I want to do that now? That sounds like a terrible way to go through life, but I dealt with the stuff that was underneath it. I had to mature.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And your ability to see other people now as, like, they're not bad. It's not a judgment. Just like, oh, there's room to grow there. You're using it for a reason. I want to get your opinion on this and have it on the podcast just to manifest. So I've been thinking, we do all of these women's things for menopause and blah, blah. And one of the big things with sex and intimacy in midlife is women not being treated for menopause so, like, sex is painful now, right? And then you definitely don't desire it because it's painful. And then the guy's like, I feel unloved because that's how I was getting my love. And so now I'm gonna go seek it somewhere else. And then the divorce and blah, blah, blah. So big effing problem. And so we're educating all the women, and a lot of, like, probably about 10% of people who, like, read my books, listen to my podcast are men. Because men, they want to help. They're problem solvers. I just want to hear what they think about menopause and what they think about, like, dude, if your testicles fell off at age 50, you might want your partner to know about that. And, like, what's going to happen? And so it's like, where are on the guys you're talking to? Like, do they know that women's hormones go to zero at, like, 48? Do they have any clue what's happening to the flying Ferrari?

[Trevor Boehm]

My guys do. Most men don't. My most popular podcast, I think of 2023 was bringing a Woman in to talk about the female menstrual cycle, the number one listened to podcast, because I think those guys. And here's an upsetting thing to say, my guys view their partners as humans first. Hey, this is a human in front of me. This is a human. This is not my sexual delivery service. This is not my food delivery service. This is. This is not my comfort delivery service. This is a human. Just, like, I want to be viewed as a human. And so when that frame gets taken, everything about the human becomes not just interesting, but you want to actually know that. I want to know where my woman is on her cycle. Why? Because they're different attitudes, experiences, sexual desire, emotional. Like, when I know, I know what I'm dealing with. I know how to work with her in partnership. I know that these three days, don't touch her hard. Don't ask her to do a lot of things physically. This is a day where I may go, hey, I'm going to take care of everything for the next few days. Just chill. So the answer to that question is, my guys do. And I think men with any level of consciousness and evolution and actualization really, really do. A lot of men don't give a shit. They just can't get past themselves or they can't see their partner as a human first. That's a bigger problem to overcome. It goes back to the sex piece of like, well, I don't care I'm not having sex. You're not giving me sex. Why is that? And it's not your fault. We blame men. I actually saw a very powerful men's coach who's gonna bang my head in the wall yesterday, put out a video saying, if your woman doesn't want to have sex with you, it's your fault. And I was like, bro, tell me you know nothing about hormones without telling me you know nothing about hormones. And I'll tell you this, Kelly, we did that same workshop that I talked to you about. We split the men and women one night and said, women, come with me and my male teaching partner. Men go with the woman, female teaching partner, and two of our physical partners. You get to ask those women anything you want. Women, you get to ask us anything that you want. When we got back together at the end of the night, I asked the women, like, what did they ask you about? It was like, all about our cycles. All about, like, does cock size matter? How do you get turned on? It was like, really beautiful, intelligent. When in your cycle do you need the most support? What happens to you? Do you feel depressed? Do you feel anxious? They actually care. And so, again, if I could get every man in the world and every woman in the world in the same room, this was my fantasy, like, six years ago. And go, cool. Tell me about your life. What is it like to be in your body? Holy shit. I had no idea that stuff was happening all day long. Women, this is what it's like to be in our world. This is what we deal with. This is our humanity. That's when I think we would have relational peace, when we stop seeing each other as other. We started seeing each other as humans who are complex, who have stories, who have traumas, who have biology, who we care about at the depth first, you know? And it's like the classic male line of, like, well, oh, you're on your period. Your mouth still work like that is dehumanizing. It's objectifying. So I had no problem being like, cool, guess what? We're not going to have sex for the next four days. If she doesn't, that's fine. I am an adult fucking male. I have more shit I can do with myself. I can go chop wood and eat steak or write this. And guess what? This is my human. This is my human. So, yeah, And I think men would benefit exponentially from that education because we want to make sense of the world, Kelly. And I think the notion that it's been really toxic is women are never to be Understood. You're only a mystery that's proposed a lot in the spiritual world, even in the physical. Like, I would never understand them.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I was taught that in medical school.

[Trevor Boehm]

In medical school, they teach that. How about we say, yeah, there's going to be a little bit of a mystery up at the top level, but I can tell you pretty much on what day my partner's cycle is a general. I can generalize how she's going to be. That's way more helpful to me as someone who enjoys structure, order, and consistency than just being like, I don't know what I'm gonna fucking get today. She's gonna come downstairs and be a completely different person than she was yesterday. And I have no idea. Which is immature and lazy. So, yeah, let's spend some time learning about each other.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I love it. This has been so fun. Thank you so much for podcasting. You're actually doing a woman's retreat. You do a lot of retreats with the therapist Dewey and the horses, which is fascinating. We didn't even get to talk about. But can you tell us your website and your Instagram so people can go follow you if they want more?

[Trevor Boehm]

Yeah. Please go to manuncivilized.com if you're curious about the retreats, go to manuncivilized.Com events and you can find where we are live all year. My Instagram is T R A V E R B O E H M and I love the plug. I have a new book coming out probably in the next month or so called 28 days in darkness.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Jesus. We didn't even talk about that.

[Trevor Boehm]

We didn't talk about it. It's a wild story about a month I spent in a dark retreat. So please get your hands on that.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Dude, I can't wait. Maybe come back. But you're going to do a longer

[Trevor Boehm]

dark retreat coming up in May. In May, I go for 49 days.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Get ready to uplevel or die.

[Trevor Boehm]

One of them crazy. I know. Or both.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. Can we. Are you. Are you posting about that on your Instagram? Can we follow the. While you're in isolation?

[Trevor Boehm]

We will have. We will have posts going up, but I'm going to. My next three months are like pre. Recording them. But you can. You can follow the lead up, right? There's a lot that I'm doing to prepare for it, a lot to talk about with it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Is that all on your podcast?

[Trevor Boehm]

I'll be podcasting about it. I'm not quite sure the PR way to do it, but it's such A unique thing that I want to share it with people. And then when I come out in July, I'll be talking about it for a good amount too, because I think it's going to be a monumental experience.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Unless you don't want to talk anymore. What if you come out and you're just like silent?

[Trevor Boehm]

I may just be like,

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right? I'm like, don't plan too much. You might be like, fuck the humans. I'm staying silent.

[Trevor Boehm]

I remember when I was in Guatemala, I was in like a spiritual town and people would have little name tags that said like in loving silence. And it was just like, hey, don't talk to me right now. And I remember bringing this idea back and sharing it with some people. And some introverts were like, this is the greatest fucking thing on earth. I will have it in loving silence. But button on me at all times. Yeah. So I may stare at some screens. Just the first podcast interview, I think I'll do that just as a joke.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You should just moan, I can't im. I mean, I can't. I have, I have children. So to me, like I, I wouldn't leave them while they were little because that's. I got to take care of humans. But I'm like, wow, that many days. All by yourself. All by yourself in the dark. It's not like all by yourself in the luxuries of this nice house on the beach.

[Trevor Boehm]

24 7, pitch darkness, pitch dark, hallucinating, the work, you name it. It happens.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It happens because you know, because you had a little taste of how much was the first one?

[Trevor Boehm]

28 days.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I wouldn't call that little. Like you had a smaller one of a fucking month.

[Trevor Boehm]

It took me eight years to be able to write about it. It was that hard.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Stay tuned, my friends. If he's talking to humans at some point in the future, we'll have him on to talk about.

[Trevor Boehm]

I'm just gonna own.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna be a non verbal podcast. Thanks for being here. Take care.

[Trevor Boehm]

Pleasure.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of you are not Broken. If you want to dig deeper with me, sign up for my adult sex education masterclass where you learn adult things like communication skills, anatomy lessons and desire types and how to talk to your doctor about sexual health concerns. If you want the adult sex education masterclass for free, join my monthly membership for more in depth exclusive content, more time with yours truly. A private podcast, coaching and educational empowerment. And you can watch my interviews live and get them immediately without advertising. Head over to www.kellycaspersonmd.com for the membership and Adult Sex Ed Masterclass members get the Master class for free. This podcast is presented solely for educational, entertainment and informational purposes only. I am a doctor, but not your doctor in this format and all of my platforms and guests, including on this podcast are not giving individual medical advice or practicing medicine. See in Consult with your own care team for your individual needs and concerns. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the care and advice of a physician, therapist, or other qualified professional. This podcast does not constitute the practice of medicine, in case you were curious about that and no doctor patient relationship is formed. But I still love you. Using the information on this podcast or any of my platforms is at your own risk. Until next time. Remember, you are not broken.