311. Two Doses, One Relationship: A Couple on Testosterone

Summary

Podcast Summary: You Are Not Broken – Episode 311

"Two Doses, One Relationship: A Couple on Testosterone"
Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson, MD
Guests: Marcella & Husband
Release Date: April 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

Dr. Kelly Casperson welcomes listeners to a special and intimate episode, featuring Marcella and her husband, who together recount their shared journey with hormone therapy—specifically testosterone—and how it transformed not just their bodies, but their marriage, their family, and their outlook on life. This candid conversation explores how hormones can impact libido, emotional connection, self-awareness, and broader passion for living, inviting listeners to rethink conventional narratives around midlife, relationships, and sexual health.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: Relationship Before Hormone Therapy

• The couple discusses their early years, marked by a healthy sex life that gradually diminished as Marcella entered her mid-30s.
• Marcella describes increasing fatigue, loss of libido, anxiety about intimacy, and a growing sense of disconnect—both with her partner and her child.
  • “I was tired all the time. I didn't feel connected… I was distancing myself.” (01:20, Marcella)

2. Challenges & Early Interventions

• Attempts at marital counseling improved communication but didn't help with sexual desire or energy (03:08).
• After medical consultations, Marcella underwent a partial hysterectomy following advice that "it would fix all [her] problems." It did not; in fact, her depression and disconnection worsened post-surgery.

3. Turning Point: Hormone Therapy

• Influenced by friends, Marcella eventually visited a hormone specialist and started testosterone pellets.
• Initial changes were slow. Four months into therapy, following a second dose, Marcella experienced a dramatic, almost “teenage” resurgence of sexual desire and general vitality.
  • “I'll never forget him walking in the door, my body heating up, turning on … I just didn’t know women could feel like that.” (05:56, Marcella)
• Marcella’s husband notes: "It was eye-opening to know that it wasn't me" (07:05), and then wondered if therapy might benefit him.

4. Husband’s Experience on Testosterone

• After testing, his testosterone levels were low; upon starting injections, he felt increased endurance, strength, cognitive clarity, and emotional presence—but needed to adjust dosing to avoid feeling “raging” (08:05).
  • “Aside from more strength... the fact that I was more aware cognitively was probably the biggest benefit.” (08:22, Husband)

5. Hormones and Relationship Dynamics

• Both guests elaborate on how hormone therapy gave them the energy to engage in difficult conversations, be “more grown up,” and "re-date" one another as new versions of themselves (11:25).
• Marcella highlights that therapy and hormones didn’t act as magic bullets—they enabled the couple to “fight better,” work through issues, and be genuinely critical without harm (12:46).

6. Gender Differences & Medical System Gaps

• Husband’s experience of accessing treatment was easier and less questioned than Marcella’s.
• The trio critiques medical silos and the lack of provider collaboration between therapy and hormone management, especially for women (14:22–15:30).
  • Dr. Casperson: “Hormones profoundly affect mood… Sometimes it's not always, but sometimes it's profound.” (14:40)

7. Beyond Libido: Whole-Self Benefits

• Marcella enumerates additional benefits beyond libido: pain relief, better sleep, less itchiness, improved memory, skin and hair health, and renewed cognitive vitality (17:46–20:05).
• She and her husband speculate on testosterone’s neuroprotective potential, discussing the possibility of reduced dementia risk (20:59–21:52).
  • “Men with low testosterone… have a higher risk of both depression and dementia.” (20:59, Dr. Casperson)

8. Navigating Newfound Passion & Identity

• Marcella shares how restoking her libido also forced her to confront internalized sexual shame, using podcasts, audiobooks, and open conversation to process newfound desire (22:33).
  • “I forced myself to listen to podcasts that were extremely uncomfortable… to dig this shit out so we don’t feel shame.” (22:33, Marcella)
• The couple reflects on changing gendered expectations and how men's enjoyment often hinges on their partner's desire, not just physicality (24:43–26:14).

9. Family & Lifestyle Transformation

• Heightened passion influenced not only their relationship but also their parenting and social lives.
• The couple shares the story of attending an “ecstatic dance” event as a family—a powerful metaphor for living with energy and self-expression (28:30–30:54).
• They observe a ripple effect on their daughter, who is adapting to parents who have resurfaced energy and enthusiasm for living.

10. Hormones as Igniter, Not Cure-All

• Both emphasize that while hormones can "turn your pilot light on," sustained intimacy requires patience, commitment, and “trusting the ride.”
  • “It's like an igniter. Your water heater is not going to heat… until you turn the pilot light on.” (32:56, Husband)
• Marcella and her husband encourage couples to get their hormones checked and to approach the journey with patience and openness (39:51–41:56).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It’s kind of shitty that you have to get drunk to want to have sex with me... That is pretty crappy.” – Husband (01:45)
• “I didn’t know women could feel like that. I thought we needed romance… I didn’t know it would be a thing that was, like, let’s go. I need this now.” – Marcella (06:20)
• “I was more aware cognitively... probably the biggest benefit.” – Husband (08:22)
• “When you wake up in midlife… discover this new version of yourself, it’s not the same person that went into this relationship.” – Marcella (10:07)
• “Therapy was… often just taught how to fight for yourself and nothing else… More reserve. It almost increases your maturity.” – Husband (12:46)
• “All the humans have hormones.” – Marcella (14:20)
• “Your brain’s ability to function better is dementia prevention.” – Dr. Casperson (20:59)
• “I forced myself to listen to podcasts that were extremely uncomfortable… to dig this shit out.” – Marcella (22:33)
• “She can now have needs and I can—she can use me all she wants… It’s not like that, but...” – Husband (24:54)
• “It's like an igniter; something has to physically turn on your pilot light, and then it will ignite.” – Husband (32:56)
• “We are here for the ride… There’s going to be times where you’re screaming, laughing, want off… we’re on it, we’re floating.” – Marcella (40:32)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:57–03:51 | Introduction; relationship backstory; early troubles
• 05:40–07:00 | Marcella describes the return of desire
• 08:05–08:47 | Husband’s testosterone experience
• 10:00–12:46 | Navigating relationship transformation & “re-dating”
• 14:22–16:03 | Gender, health care barriers, & system silos
• 17:46–20:05 | Testosterone: benefits beyond libido
• 22:33–24:02 | Processing sexual shame; redefining “turned on”
• 28:30–30:54 | Family energy: Ecstatic dancing as metaphor
• 32:56–34:39 | Hormones as the “igniter”, not magic bullet
• 39:51–41:56 | Advice for couples; patience and individual agency

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Final Thoughts & Advice for Listeners

• Patience and resilience: The journey to rekindling personal and relational passion takes time—expect ups and downs.
• Agency: Both emphasize the importance of self-advocacy and not waiting for permission or instruction from partners or healthcare providers.
• Family impact: Hormone therapy can be a catalyst for broader identity and lifestyle growth that benefits the whole household.
• Individual & shared responsibility: Success requires both partners’ engagement—with their own health and their relationship.

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Resources & Community

• Listeners interested in further support can connect with Marcella at “Wake Her Up Co.”
• Dr. Casperson offers resources and masterclasses for adult sex education and sexual health empowerment at kellycaspersonmd.com.

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This episode is a compelling testament to the transformative potential of hormone therapy—not as a cure-all, but as an invitation to reclaim passion and agency in midlife, relationships, and beyond.

“You are not broken.” — Dr. Kelly Casperson

Transcript

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Welcome to the youe Are Not Broken podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kelly Casperson, a

board certified urologist, thought leader and conversation starter on midlife living, hormones and sexuality.

Enjoy the show. Hey, everybody.

Welcome back to the you're Not Broken podcast. Really exciting today because we're going to do something unique. I have Marcella and her husband, the Hills, here today to talk about relationships, hormones, treating the couple and the journey that they've been on. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Marcella]

Thanks for having us.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you.

[Marcella's Husband]

This is the first time he's been here, everybody.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

This is your first podcast.

[Marcella's Husband]

It is, yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Welcome. You're doing great.

[Marcella]

Thanks for breaking it in.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Well, so whoever wants to start first, who got treated first on the hormone journey and just start us off in like, where the relationship was.

[Marcella's Husband]

Yeah.

[Marcella]

Well, let's start with her.

[Marcella's Husband]

Yeah, yeah, I think we'll start. I mean, I think going way back in the beginning. Our relationship was fueled by sex from the beginning. Let's just start there. And so we've always had a very healthy sexual relationship. And so what about five years ago, it had been years of me having no libido.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

How long were you guys together before? Like, up until then?

[Marcella's Husband]

Let's see, we've been married for 14, so it was probably like nine years. Yeah. Eight years into our relationship. Things were feeling like I was tired all the time. I didn't feel connected. Just all the regular midlife, seven year itch, I guess. People talk about where I was finding myself, not wanting it, blaming him. We were trying dates. We were having frustrating conversations. I was distancing myself. I was getting a lot of anxiety going to bed thinking, like, how can I stay up late so that he falls asleep? And then I don't have to say no or I don't have to just do it. Anyway, it got feeling very icky. I started having a glass of wine once in a while, thinking like, maybe that'll just kind of loosen me up. And then I remember him saying, it's kind of shitty that you have to get drunk to want to have sex with me. And me thinking, that's literally what I'm doing. That is pretty crappy.

[Marcella]

Well, she'd also. It was noticeable. She also stopped giving attention to our daughter. Just sitting next to her. Like, if she'd come up, sit next to her, she'd be like, and she's very sharp and just like, don't, don't be by me. And her bubble got much bigger. And we know Marcela, she. Her bubble is very small and you can be as much a part of it as you want. But, yeah, it was very. That was kind of a noticeable thing for me.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

How old were you? Do you remember what was five years ago? Like, perimenopause?

[Marcella's Husband]

I think I started way back. Like 30. I think it started, though. I mean, 36, 35. 36. Okay. Because it took us many years of no libido before. I was like, maybe we should do something. I mean, we went to marriage counseling.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We went like, what was the first step? Was the first step like therapy? And was. Was that useful?

[Marcella's Husband]

Not to our libido, but I mean, to conversations and bringing up some things that we hadn't talked about. But it didn't leave me feeling like, yeah, let's get it on. I mean, it was not effective for that. So let's see. Then what happened? I think I went to the doctor. I finally was talking to some friends. Somebody said, it sounds like you need to go get your hormones checked. I went to just a regular ob, checked my hormones. She came back, said, all your levels look fine. You look good. But I did have a prolapsed uterus. So they recommended. I got a partial hysterectomy. And I thought that was going to fix all of my problems. That's what they said.

[Marcella]

Well, they said it. Doctors actually said, oh, you're going to feel so great after. This is going to be so good.

[Marcella's Husband]

You're not going to go into. You won't affect your hormones because they're going to keep your ovaries. It's going to fix your back pain. It's going to fix your. All of how you feel. You're probably tired because you hurt. And because you hurt, you probably don't feel like connecting with anyone. So this is going to fix all of your problems. So I got a partial hysterectomy. And then my body, it just felt like, was not healing. It felt worse. I kept giving myself more time. Oh, I just need more time to heal. More time, more time, more time. A year went by, and I was depressed. I couldn't get out of bed. I was not showing up to work. I didn't want to do anything. I didn't want to be with people. This was way worse. I remember a whole weekend, and I think I talked about on your last episode, where I just laid in bed all weekend, and it just scared the hell out of me. And he wasn't really noticing because I feel like we were super disconnected. So it just seems.

[Marcella]

It seemed normal to me.

[Marcella's Husband]

I was just like, how did you

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

guys, I probably sound obtuse. How did you guys not get divorced?

[Marcella's Husband]

Right.

[Marcella]

Well, probably because we have a daughter.

[Marcella's Husband]

Yeah. And this is gonna sound really. I mean, we did go through a phase, and this is gonna go through this whole story. But at this point, I finally got a friend who said, go get hormones from a hormone therapist. So that was last straw. I went in begging for just put anything in my body. I get a big, huge dose of testosterone. And at this point, I'm thinking, this is over. I'm thinking. And even my hormone therapist said, you're gonna find out real quick if it's your hormones or your husband. I'm like, okay, give me what we got. And. And it was about four months into it that I was feeling really good, getting all the benefits from testosterone, but still not feeling the zing. And I thought, okay, it's probably our marriage. And it was the second dose of testosterone, so we're talking about the pellets. But, I mean, you can do testosterone in lots of different ways. Right. But about month four, I remember I left on vacation for myself, thinking, we're probably going to be separated. I come back, and I'll never forget him walking in the door, my body heating up, turning on. And it was like. Like high school, where the boy that's walking by the hall, like, sees you and your whole body sings on. And I thought, there's no. Like, I didn't know that could exist in marriage. I didn't know that could exist. Definitely not. Thirteen years into marriage, and it was like, clear. Clear the dishes off the counter. Like, let's go. You know? And I just. I didn't know women could feel like that. I thought we needed romance. I thought we needed the dishes done. I thought we needed him to contribute. And no laundry on the floor. And I just. I thought it was a thing that we did to fulfill their needs. I didn't know it would be a thing that was like, let's go. Like, I need this now.

[Marcella]

And it'd be a shared experience. It doesn't just have to be very much.

[Marcella's Husband]

That was, like, my side of the story. But I don't know. What did that feel like for you when it got turned back on?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, like, when did you. Were you. Like, what.

[Marcella]

What did you do with my wife? Where is she? And. But no, I think it was eye opening to know that it wasn't me, which then allowed me to kind of, like, think more into what can I do to adjust? Because I think, like, what many have said, it's. It's Usually one person is being fixed and not the other. And so if this is benefiting her, could possibly it benefit me. So then I. I went through it and I got my hormones checked and I was at, I think 258 was my testosterone level. I do a lot of work outside, and I've just felt tired, like very quickly and exhausted. And once I got that, started doing those injections and I was. I shot up. But I mean, it went a little. A little too high. It was about, you know, 15, 16, May, about 15, 1400. And so I was like raging. I felt like that college kid. But mellowing it down then I was able to like, just see more things and kind of relate more and understand what. What things were affecting and how I could benefit her by recognizing those things and not just go back to my, oh, she's feeling hurt. I got to give her some space. I know she says, don't give me space, but man, I don't want to disrupt her. I don't want to make her mad. So I'm just gonna sit back. Which was the detriment to before. So, yeah, it was allowing more awareness. More awareness. So even aside from the fact of having more endurance, more strength, more energy, the fact that I was more aware cognitively was probably the biggest benefit for me in being, like, having it be a joint thing.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Just to clarify. Cause you were kind of feeling like you had more reserve to show up and be a better version of yourself.

[Marcella]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. What did you know about, like, perimenopause and hormones in women before Marcella went through that?

[Marcella]

Nothing. Nothing. Nothing at all. Now I feel like I know a lot and I over share with any woman that I see or. Or man, like talk about it and they think, who. Why are you telling me this? Yeah, like, I'm not. I'm not freaked out. This isn't weird. But thank you for sharing this information. But yeah, now it's like, it's way, way more noticeable and just seeing family

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

like, you know enough now where you can, like, pick it out.

[Marcella's Husband]

Yeah.

[Marcella]

But like, you. Yeah, you need to go get your check.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, you can pick it out of a crowd.

[Marcella]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could wear the vest from. From Walmart that says, ask me. Ask me, I can help.

[Marcella's Husband]

So I think one thing that's really interesting to know is that when my hormones turn back on and, you know, now I have this libido, I have this drive for life that very much threw me into this awakening of myself. And one thing that I Think a lot of people don't realize. They think, oh, let's get on hormones. So it fixes my relationship. One thing they don't consider is that when you wake up in midlife and you discover this new version of yourself, it's not the same person that went into this relationship. And things got very wobbly in a very bizarre way, because now I feel so, so good. I want to play, I want to discover. I want to live life in a way that I had never lived before. And that is not how our relationship had worked up to that point. So last summer I got my. I mean, last year I got my own room, and we actually went through, like, a roommate phase. I mean, we were on the brink of getting divorced because I felt so good, but because I felt brand new, because this brand new version of me was not working in this old relationship. And I think one thing that he was talking about is because we both physically felt good, because we physically had energy and the capacity to think, the capacity to have relationship or hard conversations. We could figure stuff out, even though it was hard. And we're never going to pretend like we have figured it out, that we have this amazing, perfect marriage that everybody is trying to strive for. But what we can say is we have found the energy and the feeling good in our own bodies to be able to be creative and understanding and see each other and try new things. That is something we have done.

[Marcella]

Yeah. It was almost like having to redate, in a sense, because it was. I mean, a lot of marriages fail because the people don't know each other and they're not willing to share or accept criticism. And at this point, like, we can be critical to each other and it's not detrimental to us. It might set us. Okay, I'm gonna rethink this, and I'm gonna do this on my own or she'll. I need more space over here. So like she said, it's not instant fixing everything that that's there. It's not a magic drug, you know, but it's. It's the awareness and being able to recognize we want this and we both want this, and we're both willing to put work into it, not just let it roll.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like it gives you more reserve.

[Marcella]

Yeah.

[Marcella's Husband]

And you show up differently to all your relationships. When you feel good, like when you physically feel good and you have energy, you can fight better. Right? Way better. Because now we understand what role hormones play. When I'm feeling crap because I'm low in testosterone, we can recognize what is and what isn't. And that allows us to talk about the things that we have control over. And because we're both physically taking care of ourselves, we kind of rule out the whole hormonal play and we can deal with real things.

[Marcella]

I almost say therapy was bad, like couples therapy was bad, but I feel like often you're just taught how to fight for yourself and nothing else. Right. So when she's. When I know she's low on testosterone, I'm not taking things personally. I know that's just how it's happening right now. And I'm not getting defensive. And that's, you know, kind of for me, when I would go to therapy, that's what I gained from it was how to be more defensive and just shoot down everything that's being given to me. So, yeah, more reserve and being able to. To take those on and just be more grown up, really. Like, it's. It's almost like it increases your maturity because you're not. You're not so selfish and you're not so afraid of somebody not liking you at that moment.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, totally. Did you have a different experience when you went to the doctor to check your hormone that Marcela did? Like, was it easy for you? Or they're like, yeah, let's just check it.

[Marcella]

Yeah, it was easy. And I did it via telehealth. And, you know, they walked me through all my labs and they're like, yeah, this, this, this, these are some vitamins. There's what will put you on this, and this is kind of what's going to take place. And there was never any, like, question of it could be something else. It was, let's get you help. And we know how to do it. Which I feel like from what I know now of women's hormones, it's, yeah, this is what it is. But we're not quite sure exactly what to do for you. I've heard, you know, somewhere that something might help, but I can't ever. I can't recommend that to you because that doesn't support my right.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And you're like, dude, all bodies have hormones.

[Marcella]

Yeah, everything. Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

All the humans have hormones.

[Marcella]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marcella's Husband]

But to that conversation, he has been working with a doctor for mood anxiety. And has your. That doctor ever even.

[Marcella]

Yeah, they have hormones. No, no.

[Marcella's Husband]

There's giving mood stabilizers. Right.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I mean, it's like the healthcare system. So siloed now of. This is the diabetes person, that's the high blood pressure person, that's the skin person, that's the mood person. Instead of being like Hormones profoundly affect mood. If, if anybody should understand that, I. I want the therapists, the psychiatrists, you know, the. The mental health teams to understand that. Because it's. Sometimes it's not. It's not always, but sometimes it's profound.

[Marcella]

And you think of like doctors, like hundreds of years ago, they're researching on their own for what things might help with their patients. Like, they had an overall idea and understanding of what would help. And it's not just this person or a corporation told me to do this, and this is all that will help you. And they. I feel like that's kind of like you said, it's siloed itself and it's. It's been dissolved.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

One thing I've seen a lot, you know, just. Just a side note, but I've seen this more now, and I've been doing medicine for two decades at this point is people really being like, well, we don't have FDA approval. It's very common to hear that now, where in like 15 years of my training, nobody was like, well, let's see what's FDA approved for this? Like, it only means one little thing. But you rely doctors relying on kind of this outside catalog as far as what options are. Instead of being like, I have a human in front of me who's suffering. I don't know what's going to help, but I want to figure it out with you. We've kind of lost that.

[Marcella's Husband]

Yeah, this is like a question for you, actually. I was talking to a guy who was super concerned about his wife, found out what I did, and then referred his wife to hormone therapy. She got on hormone therapy, starts feeling really good, and he reached back out to me, he said, I'm so excited for her to feel good and to figure this out. Is there a therapist, like a couple's therapist, that understands the changes we're about to go through, that can walk us through this together as a couple? And I was like, that's a very aware. I should be able to give you an answer, but I have no idea.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

There isn't like an organization where you can be like this. These people are aware. There should be. Now there's the secret sauce, I think is the couple's relationship therapist. People who understand sex and who understand menopause. It's like a three Venn diagram circle. It's like those people. I have one in my town, and she's basically a, you know, marriage couple therapist who specializes in perimenopause and menopause. So, like just the hormone conversation just happens so much earlier in the conversation than like, well, when everything else has been tried. Have you checked your hormones of like, let's, let's move that a couple of paces up front. What do you guys think when, you know, especially with testosterone in women? Because I think in men, testosterone is understood as helping many things, even if we don't have FDA approval for all those things. But it helps many things. And I just think people understand that in men more in women. It's really put in a corner of like, this is only for libido. But Marcel, I mean, did only your libido get better?

[Marcella's Husband]

Oh, no. I mean, well, I had been on testosterone for four months before my libido finally turned back on. And in those four months, my body went from hurting all the time to going to a chiropractor every week that wasn't working and a physical therapist for my shoulder to having no pain in my body.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I could run again.

[Marcella's Husband]

I had stopped running, stopped going for long walks, stopped going to the gym. I was just trying to maintain and felt like I was slowly dying and suddenly waking up in an 80 year old's body where I'm going to start, you know, I'm taking ibuprofen. I'm doing all these things because my body is just in pain. So pain was gone. Itchiness. I had no idea I had been itching my legs every night for years and years and years. I thought, drink more water. I'm in a dry climate. I should try maybe it's whatever, zip code. Yeah, it's my zip code. And I didn't even know that itchiness was a symptom. That wasn't on the list. Even when I went to my hormone therapist, itchiness wasn't. I didn't know. And I had told a woman about hormone therapy and how it helped me sleep, helped me my body not hurt, help my libido turn on. And she said, oh my gosh. The thing that helped me the most was the itchiness in my ear. I had been years of trying to figure out what was wrong with my ears. And as soon as I started on hormones and balanced everything out, all of a sudden, no more ringing in her ears, no more itchiness. And I was like, what? And then I went backtracked and thought, I haven't been itching my legs and my scalp had gotten dry and flaky and it felt like overnight, like, what is, what is happening? I was switching on my shampoo. My scalp wasn't dry and flaky anymore. I Mean, it just, it's helped my skin, my bones, all of it.

[Marcella]

One thing I noticed was her memory because she was always concerned because her grandma has like.

[Marcella's Husband]

My grandma has dementia.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you for saying that. Yeah.

[Marcella]

She's like, I need to take this and I need to take this and I need to take this, this. Right. And then afterwards, it's like over time, it was. There was no more. I need to take this. It was like, it was just kind of refiring, you know, and I don't know if that's a thing, but.

[Marcella's Husband]

Yeah, I can't remember my PIN numbers.

[Marcella]

Right.

[Marcella's Husband]

I can't remember.

[Marcella]

Yeah.

[Marcella's Husband]

If I. Someone tells me something year, I can remember it from this to the computer screen.

[Marcella]

Whereas before, literally text, remember, always. What's our, what's our password for this? What's our password? This, always.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's, That's. Thank you so much for bringing that up. I'm convinced and, you know, a couple other people who are in the testosterone kind of expert world are convinced that this is neuroprotective. And, and the thing is, like, it's a very bold statement for me to be like, testosterone is going to prevent dementia. But we do have that data in men. Men with low testosterone who are untreated have a higher risk of both depression and dementia than men with normal testosterone. So it's like, it's not crazy because we already have the male data. And if you want to sit around and wait for a 20 year study to finally prove that testosterone is going to prevent dementia, sorry, that study's not going to happen. Like, we just have to hear people's stories and be like, your brain's ability to function better is dementia prevention.

[Marcella's Husband]

I mean, all I know is dementia runs my family. So if I do nothing, I will probably get dementia. That is my likelihood. So my thing is, well, the testosterone right now is making it so my body doesn't hurt so I can actually function and live right now. That's all I know. If it has that benefit, then I am doing something more than what my family has done in the past to prevent it. And if I still get it, I still get it. But I am doing the thing, the only thing that I am aware of that says it helps.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. And exercise, which you can do because you're on testosterone, which you can actually go. So, like, the hormones allow you to do two dementia preventing things. I think the other good point that you bring up is that libido doesn't come back right away. It's common for women to be like, and Then in month four, the humans started looking attractive.

[Marcella's Husband]

My body started liking men with altar. So I think, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

When did men get good looking again? Oh, yeah. Well, around month four to six.

[Marcella's Husband]

So much in play for women and libido and sex. I mean, there is when my libido turned on. Yeah. Was that fun? But I also had to deal with the shame. I didn't know that I was still dealing with an immense amount of sexual shame. I didn't know that when I got horny and wanted to have it that I felt like a hooker. I didn't know how to express myself. I didn't know what that felt like to have me want it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

What helped you process that? Books or therapy or just like.

[Marcella's Husband]

I forced myself. This sounds so ridiculous, but I forced myself to listen to podcasts that were extremely uncomfortable and some audio porn and things that really challenged that shame in me. Where she would listen to the podcast and go, oh, my gosh, we can't listen to that. And I'm like, oh, we're listening to that. Like, we're going to dig this shit out so we don't feel shame. And why do we feel like that? Why can't we watch a show like this or listen to something like this without judging it and feeling crappy? Why? I listened to this really kind of silly book that is called Living Orgasmic Life, and it helped me reform orgasm, understand the benefits of it. Understand that orgasm isn't just the sexual thing. It's kind of your mojo. It's your bounce in your step. It's humming to music. It's wanting to turn the windows down and have the wind blow in your hair and scream at the top of your lungs, your favorite song. I didn't know that it was turning on. Like my fire. My wanting. My desire, your passion. And I always tell women in my audience, like, you deserve to feel turned on instead of wanting to just turn your libido on. Libido on to pleasure somebody else. And I think women in general have been taught that our bodies are for someone else's pleasure. It's for someone to look at. It's for someone to use. So we're supposed to supply that need.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. And then other people get to judge you based upon how sexy. How sexy you are or how available you are or, like, it's a big judgment thing.

[Marcella's Husband]

One thing that keeps coming up in my videos is I'll be talking about this, and men will overwhelmingly say, just leave. Get a younger girlfriend. What's in it for us? Why should we have to endure this. And I think that's one thing I wanted to bring up here because, I mean, you can speak to it, but the way I show up in bed or sexually is completely different now, being in midlife and wanting it than what it was before. And maybe, I mean, as a man, you can say, like, what is in it for the men? Why should they stick around? Is it better?

[Marcella]

Yeah, thousand percent. Well, I think that there's always going to be men that are just. They just want pleasure, right? That's all they want. But I think those that can see, like their wife or their partner or increase in their enjoyment of themselves and the, and the moment, it makes me want to think less about me and more about her. So most my effort is going towards her and not me. So rather than, oh, I'm gonna finish and then roll over and fall asleep, that's the opposite. Like, and I don't have to complete anything. As long as she's, you know, excited, you know, taken care of, that's now my, My enjoyment. So it's. It's like, though it's not just a thing. It's not. I'm not using her for my, my needs. It's. She can now have needs and I can. She can use me all she wants. But it's. It's not like that. But, you know, kind of what I'm.

[Marcella's Husband]

What I'm saying, I felt like a goddess now, this whole pleasurable sexual goddess rather than someone that's being used and that I'm giving something up.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right? We don't talk about the man's perspective in heterosexual relationships. A lot of like. And I think what you were saying, but please clarify if I'm wrong, is a man's enjoyment involves seeing their partner be very turned on and like it and want it. And I think that women don't know that. We don't get that. And I think, you know, when we say it, guys are like, yeah, obviously. And I'm like, no, not obviously. Like, otherwise we would know that.

[Marcella]

Yeah, because I mean, she's there. She's like, oh, no, no, let's. Let's do this first. And. Or you haven't been taken care of. And it wasn't like, until later she could realize that is my enjoyment. I did it. You know, we were together and doing it together. And it doesn't have to be checkbox this. And now I'm good. It can be both. And it can, you know, we do get enjoyment from the women having their enjoyment and their time and their excitement and getting Pleasure from it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. And I think the other thing that people don't understand, and again, please correct me, I only live in one body. But it's that men will, I don't want to say put up, but like men will show up for pleasure for them with a partner that's showing up for them. Like. But there is a different experience that might be more pleasurable for everybody is like when everybody's showing up with equal like enjoyment and excitement to be there into each other's experience instead of like, I kind of know my partner's just showing up.

[Marcella]

Yeah.

[Marcella's Husband]

I mean, because I've explored my sexuality and my sexual energy and asked myself, what do I like and what do I want? We have added experiences into our relationship that we would have never. He would have never experienced. And I've been able to add that to us because of what I want. And it's made it an experience that is fun for me. And it kind of extends even beyond our just our relationship. It goes into more intimate relationships with friends, more intimate experiences. Just going out, wanting to connect.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's like a confidence in life. I got this part that's good. So like I get to, you know, show up and go do this other stuff because like this like primal but like this basic need is like so wonderfully fulfilled that you're like, okay, you know, the Pavlovian triangle of needs or something. I think, I mean, how your relationship now is. You're probably not communicating this with your daughter, but it's like she's seeing different roles happening now of like these people who are like, they've got energy, they've loved life, they're into each other. You guys are showing up in a way for her that she's probably experiencing a different, like this is what a relationship is.

[Marcella]

We're open about sharing it with her. And I feel like we just went to this last night ecstatic dancing thing which was totally new. Crazy hippie thing.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

But what's ecstatic dancing?

[Marcella's Husband]

You just, you're with. Think of like people just moving to the music. So people are just flowing and moving. There's no talking, there are no phones. It's kind of clubby, but everyone's just like dancing silly. Think of a 70 year old just skipping around. You're like doing love.

[Marcella]

Yeah, but kids, like whole families are there, so it's just whatever. And. And I, I do not participate in things like this. But I was like moving around and whatnot. But our daughter was like kind of recluse and just kind of quiet and like, no, like, not doing it where I feel like she's kind of in the transition. Like, even our kids should have an ability to know what's changing and what energies are changing. Because she's now, like, been set in this lifestyle of we don't do much, do. We just kind of chill. We just do this. And now it's like something different. So now it's new for her as well. So to incorporate her into it. And that was just noticeable, just from last night in and of itself, because she's a dancer and she loves to do these things, but to get out in front of other people, that used to be me as a. Don't do anything. And so that's kind of like an overtime hormone change and changing the balance of your. Your mind to be like, oh, yeah, I'm more confident in this. I'm more comfortable in this. Sometimes I'll still get anxiety, but that goes away a lot faster now than it did before.

[Marcella's Husband]

I mean, we have passion in our home, right? I mean, passion has started with me turning my passion on, being excited about life. It's moved over to him. It's moved over to our daughter. I mean, last night we stood in ecstatic, dancing with weird people, fun people, and the three of us, as a unit, danced silly. You know, we don't associate libido with going and being silly and dancing. But that is what I have come to understand. Like, when my. When I am turned on and I have passion and desire, it flows over to wanting my family to come to a dance class where we can express ourselves. And that's something women don't. We don't. We're not putting those two together.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh. I mean, it's just so much like what I'm hearing is like, you guys becoming the best versions of yourselves. And then from that, you create a platform that you want the best version of your daughter, you know, and you want the best version for the relationship. And it's like. It's just like this trickle or snowball effect that just keeps happening.

[Marcella]

Yeah.

[Marcella's Husband]

Everyone's trying so hard to make sure that you stay in a marriage like that, as if that's the goal. And I think it's almost like marriage. Marriage is obsolete at this point. We are now. The goal is everyone understand feelings. Everyone understand how to feel feelings, express feelings, Feel comfortable, confident, have the space to explore and interact and live in this land of human the way that is best for us, and allow flow and inspiration and love and relationships, and it just feels safer and it feels more honest. I feel like I live in. The level of honesty in our relationship is something I never understood could exist in a relationship. And the expansiveness of what we can include in our experiences can exist in this relationship now. And it feels so. It's like a. You went from a big. A little tiny box of like, this is what a marriage is, and this is what a good marriage is to this huge container of this is our relationship. And it can move and flow and come in and out, and that is a way better place. There's. You can breathe so much better.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I mean, it's so helpful for people because, you know, if we're like, hey, go get treated with hormones so your sex life is better. That's kind of an understatement of, like, what's possible. And at the same time, people who are. Who think that testosterone is just a magic bullet of, like, it helps a lot. But, like, you guys clearly still have done a lot of work and wanted to try to communicate better, to try to like, it's not a magic bullet, but it can even be better.

[Marcella]

It's like an igniter. Like, your water heater is not going to heat your water until you turn the pilot light on, and then it's going to ignite. Something has to physically turn on your pilot light, and then it will ignite because of what's in you. And I think something that she just said of libido. It's like, we have passion. And I think it could literally be changed to, I need to fix my libido to I need to restore my passion. Because when we first dated, I wasn't on SSRIs, and I was, like, thinking ahead, and I want to do things. I want, you know, this and this, and then I got on those, and then it kind of, like, erased that almost to where there's eliminating passion and still libido. It's always there, but the passion was gone. And then, you know, reducing those and adding in hormone therapy increased passion. And it's like, oh, I can be mad at stuff. I can have an opinion and disagree with something, not just be in this zombie state. I think with our kids, like, getting the passion, like, they can have passion for anything. And if they lose that passion, then that's when you start to decline.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yes, I love it. I mean, it's a whole different way of thinking about living that I don't think is brought up enough of, like, and who's going to go to their doctor and be like, I've lost my passion for life. Like, it's almost like this kind of stigma. But when you talk about it, it makes 100% sense.

[Marcella]

Yeah. I mean, well, the irony is they're going to put you on something that will eliminate.

[Marcella's Husband]

Don't make it stop you complaining about.

[Marcella]

Complaining about not having passion rather than, you know, for the most part, it's going to be like that. They will experience the same thing that women feel when they go to their gynecologist. They're like, oh, yeah, you're totally fine. Just go drink wine. You know, you're good.

[Marcella's Husband]

I mean, everyone's looking for happiness. And we have. I have stopped telling our kids things like, I just want you to be happy. Because now my idea is when you turn yourself. I mean, I'm, I think, lived it. When you turn yourself on, happiness is not just the only emotion that comes.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right.

[Marcella's Husband]

Like when you turn yourself back on, you are passionate. You can fight louder, you know, you can stand up for yourself. You can advocate more. And I get freaked out when our house kind of goes numb when there isn't a lot of emotion at all. I want our daughter to express fear and sadness. I had to train myself that I'm allowed to cry standing in the kitchen. I don't have to go hide away. And all of that is contained in the idea of living turned on. You're going to have emotions. And I think when you turn yourself on with testosterone, you have to know that it comes with all the things, not just this amazing sex life. Right. It also comes with the ability to argue better and be passionate about all of the things in all the ways. And so then it's going to challenge you to learn how to feel feelings.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I think that the time is ripe because, I mean, the data currently says a 25% of midlife women are on antidepressants. And I fully understand some of them do need to be on that. But I also understand there's a lot of people who say, I don't think this is the answer. I think there's something else and there's a different way. And so I just think, like, in the zeitgeist, we might be at this point where people are waking up to being like 25% of people on antidepressants. That can't be the solution for everybody. As, like, this is as good as it gets to be.

[Marcella's Husband]

It's scary to feel feelings when we don't know how. I mean, this is a conversation we have a lot with our daughter because we recognize we didn't know how to feel feelings. And now all of us for the 40 year olds in the house and the 10 year old in the house are now learning to not be afraid of sadness. You know, and what does a sad day look like and how do we do that and what does a happy day look like and when does a reclusive day when we don't want to be with people, what does that look like without being mean? And I think that is going to come in with women turning themselves back on is having to learn how to feel feelings and express ourselves and not be afraid of them.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Do you think that testosterone for one or both of you, do you think it made you feel more feelings or it gave you more resilience to then do the work, to feel the feelings? Like how would you tie in testosterone therapy and like the vivid life of having a life with feelings and being able to manage that?

[Marcella]

Yeah, I think for me, I think it was the starter. It's what allowed me to feel good and then to recognize other things in my life aren't good. I was focused on one thing. It's your arm's broken, it's sometimes hard to see, maybe something else is wrong with you. All you're feeling is your broken arm. And so when that's healed, then you like, oh, well, I also have arthritis. Okay, so let's take care of that and then let's take care of this. But it's all started because of one thing and taking that, that you yourself are going for it. So that increases the, I guess healing process in me anyway is because it was something I chose and not something somebody told me to do or put me on. And so there's just more of an internal desire to do something more rather than, oh, my doctor said I need to do this and I don't want to, I don't want to be told what to do again. Or like my wife's telling me to do this and I'm just being told what to do. Whereas I recognize this, I need to do it. It's much more of a benefit to you when it's accomplished and when you reach the goal and you just feel fantastic.

[Marcella's Husband]

And this is crazy because I've never heard him tell that. And because I run this global community, in the wake her up community, there are women that will get on hormones, they're turning themselves back on and then they will come and say, well, great, now I have this. Now I have this, now I have this. As if the hormones caused it. And my take on this and seeing it in a global thing is that no, I don't think it's causing it. I think you're now being able to listen to your body. Now you're recognizing, huh? I might have a gut health situation that you were never able to pay any attention to because you weren't listening to your body. You weren't seriously checked out. You were feeling dead inside. You were trying to just survive and being totally separate from your body. And now you're dropping into your body, your body's turning back on. It's going to tell you what's going on, and you're going to think that these things caused it. And I just. I kind of say a majority of people are now just more aware. And for me, it definitely has turned feelings on. I can cry now. Before, I could not cry. And when I cry, there are friends that I text. I'm like, high five. And there are a lot of women in the wake her up community that will express, I cried today. I think I'm turning back on. That's a good sign.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, that's so sweet. Okay, we got to wrap it up, but I want hot takes for other couples who might be thinking about navigating this. What. What advice would you have for them?

[Marcella]

Patience. You'll have some. Fantastic. And then just like we were talking about, something else is going to come in. But if you're in for the long haul and you both want to do it, then, you know, like, you're going to have some hard times again, and then it's just going to shoot back up because you've overcome that and then come back down, and it's not going to be roses every single day. You're going to find some thorns, and then you just prune the bush and more roses grow.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, that's great, though, because thank you for saying patience. Because I'm like, I think they're going to look at you and Marcel and be like, I want that now. They don't understand. Like, the years that led up to this conversation.

[Marcella's Husband]

We use a word in our family a lot called when we say float. We're here for the ride. We are here for the ride. And there is going to be times where you're screaming, times when you're laughing, times when you want off the ride, times when the ride is the best thing that ever happened in times when you are so dizzy from being on the ride. But we're just. We're on it. We're floating. We're here for the whole thing, and we're trusting the process. And the other thing is get your friggin Hormones checked, both of you get them checked. Like don't know what's going on. Your body try some things. I think we've done this for a few years now. You're not going to just run in, get testosterone and a few months later your story is not going to be my story. You have to start listening to your body, you have to start paying attention. And I think overall, I hope what people walk away with is that you matter individually, you matter and that nobody's body is for someone else's pleasure and that your pleasure is for you. And you deserve to feel turned on. And when you do, that is what actually fixes things. Not going and fixing this, but you turning yourself on and being able to participate in your life with your way of passion, your way of joy, your way of feeling feelings. And is the thing that most people, I mean that is the thing that's missing.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I just think the immense privilege we have that we actually have hormones, we can actually adjust it. We can actually, you can actually do something about it because it's like, you know, 100 years ago we didn't have that. And furthermore you weren't going to live much past 50. And now we're like, dude, we have this incredible gift of living long and optimizing it.

[Marcella's Husband]

Right.

[Marcella]

It's like doubling your life.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. And people don't understand. I can opt in and like, oh my, like the generations past didn't have this as an option. Like you're just gonna drink alcohol and be miserable.

[Marcella's Husband]

You have to slowly die. From here we can go and live. I one of the things that makes me realize like I am turned back on is that I just saw a ballroom dancer on some tick tock and my brain was like, I wonder if ballroom dancing is in my life. Like I have never ballroom dance in my life. But I'm dreaming again. I have hope again. I'm thinking like a 15 year old that I'm like maybe I' be a ballroom dancer someday.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. Future planning that tends to go away as people get older. I wonder if it's related to hormones. That's a fascinating thing to think about. It's a thing and it, it's a sign of life.

[Marcella's Husband]

Desire. Somebody said when you have no desire and no passion, it really is, you have to be able to stay in your body and want to live. That is desire and wanting and passion. It's why you're living. So if you lose passion, desire and wanting, you really aren't living.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, well, I think, you know, again, going back to like, libido is more than just wanting somebody's naked body on your body. Like, that's some of it. But like, it is a lot more of that. Like, it doesn't exist in a bubble. What do you want in life? What do you want for the future? That's all. Like, that wanting, that, desiring. That is a libido as well.

[Marcella]

Definitely.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I love it. You guys. Thank you so much for sharing it. Like this episode. I feel like people are like, why do you keep showing up? And I'm like, cause I save marriages. And I'm like, I didn't save your marriage. But it's like there are success stories, especially if you're surrounded with friends, that their relationship isn't going well and you just think that this is how it's like. No, no. There's success stories and love stories and it's just so wonderful. And thank you for sharing yours with us today and letting people know that it's okay to get help and adjust things and learn how to feel feelings in your 40s. And I'm honored that you came on.

[Marcella]

Thanks for having me.

[Marcella's Husband]

Thank you so much, Kelly. I. I just. I love the work you do and if anyone needs some extra support, I mean, I'm sure I'll add all the notes, but they can always find me at Wake her up co.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Awesome.

Thanks for sharing that.

[Marcella]

Thank you.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of youf Are Not Broken. If you want to dig deeper with me, sign up for my Adult Sex Education Masterclass where you learn adult things like communication skills, anatomy lessons and desire types, and how to talk to your doctor about sexual health concerns. If you want the Adult Sex Education Masterclass for free, join my monthly membership for more in depth exclusive content, more time with yours truly. A private podcast, coaching and educational empowerment and you can watch my interviews live and get them immediately without advertising. Head over to www.kellycaspersonmd.com for the membership and Adult Sex Ed Masterclass members get the Master class for free. This podcast is presented solely for educational, entertainment and informational purposes only. I am a doctor, but not your doctor in this format and all of my platforms and guests, including on this podcast, are not giving individual medical advice or practicing medicine. See in Consult with your own care team for your individual needs and concerns. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the care and advice of a physician, therapist or other qualified professional. This podcast does not constitute the practice of medicine, in case you were curious about that and no doctor patient relationship is formed, but I still love you. Using the information on this podcast or any of my platforms is at your own risk. Until next time, remember, you are not broken.