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- [00:00]
A
I started Ornod in 2013 and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify, so start your free trial on shopify.com.
- [00:33]
B
Welcome to the you are Not Broken podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kelly Casperson, a board certified urologist, thought leader and conversation starter on midlife living, hormones and sexuality. Enjoy the show. Hey everybody.
- [00:48]
C
Welcome back to the youe're Not Broken podcast. Today we're gonna destigmatize and normalize the use of vibrators for health, wellness, fun and all the important things. I have a friend with me, Laur Pack, and she is coming all the way from Australia to join us on the podcast today. Welcome.
- [01:04]
D
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
- [01:06]
C
So you are the CEO, founder, creator, all the things of elixir play, which makes very nice high end. And I don't mean high end like $800. I mean high end, like well crafted vibrators. But did you know in college, like I'm going to major in electrical engineering so I can perfect the vibrator?
- [01:27]
D
Oh my gosh, no. I actually, I did film as my college undergraduate degree.
- [01:33]
C
Ah, very creative. Cool, cool. Okay, so we got a film degree and then fast forward us to like, how did, how did your journey evolve into you being an owner of a vibrator company?
- [01:47]
D
So it was a long journey and a long personal journey, which I think is actually how most great products, to be honest are made. Did film. I did business after film and it wasn't until I had my first daughter, I started experiencing extremely painful sex. Actually, that's not true. Before that I had endometriosis as a kid. Since literally like 13. I had five laparoscopies before I was 17. And when I had my last laparoscopy, they put a blood drain in. I was in agony. I went back to the doctor ten days later, who is male, and said, I'm in so much pain. And he was like, you're imagining your pain. Go to a pain clinic. And I was 16 years old at the time. And so I actually now still have phobias of not wanting to say what, I'm not feeling well because I fear that I'm going to be told that I'm imagining It So I have to really be unwell to do something about it. But I think all of those things, right? So you take something, an area that should be pleasurable and fun and that should be your first experience is very clinical and very negative. Then I had kids and it was extremely traumatic. Pregnancy, birth, everything. And all of a sudden my association with my whole body became quite negative and having sex felt like I was being stabbed. It was just excruciating. And again went to see a doctor who said nothing to find, didn't do an exam, but still nothing to find. Even he'd done an exam. I don't know that would made a difference. He said, why don't you go see a pelvic floor physio? And I did. And through that process we did lots of things. We worked with dilators, which I agree are really important. I'm not a fan of the concept of, hey, take this phallic looking thing, stick it in, you go relax. That was really difficult to do, to be honest. But she suggested if you thought of using external stimulation because sometimes that can relax the muscles. And all of a sudden I was like, anytime we have pain in our body, anytime we want to relax, one of the things that really works is massage. Purely take everything else out but blood flow. We get blood flow back to the area. That's a really positive thing. And yet we don't routinely do that when we're having vulval pain. And so for me, it was diagnosed at time as vaginismus. But having had that experience, I looked what was on the market and there were a few great brands. There are some out there, but honestly the vast majority were really vulgar, offensive looking, scary looking, huge girth, internal focused products. And I was like, no, this is just not going to do and decided to go about trying to create my own brand. That a I could create my own products, but also that I could run the brand and choose what elements I wanted and a big focus on. It's actually education because a lot of people don't know the basics of things like, hey, this is really good for blood flow. We think about it as the end goal, which is orgasm, but we don't actually think about all the things that it's doing to our body during that process that are actually helpful.
- [04:55]
C
Oh, I love it. So when did you start the company?
- [04:59]
D
I started in 2018 designing which I had all kinds of interesting experiences through that process. I made a lot of mistakes that led to these great products now and then. I launched it actually in March 2020, which was for anyone that remembers March 2020. So it was an absolute disaster. And it took a. Took a while. I couldn't travel. So if anyone who doesn't know Australia was physically shut down. And by shut down, you had to apply to the government to leave the country.
- [05:33]
C
Dude, you guys couldn't go. I learned this when I was over there. You guys couldn't Travel more than 5k from your house.
- [05:39]
D
Yes. And you couldn't go into other states. So I live in Sydney. I couldn't go to Melbourne. I couldn't go to the Gold coast in Brisbane. So it was not an ideal.
- [05:49]
C
Americans were like, oh, we thought we had it. We thought we had it rough.
- [05:53]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [05:54]
C
No, everyone.
- [05:54]
D
I mean, the poor people in Melbourne were shut down the longest. Yes. It was not a great time to launch a company and a brand. I'd had, like, soft launches before then of a previous product that was a disaster because I didn't research it and because I didn't think about what it was. I just wanted to make a product. And probably 22 is the first time it really started to hit the shelves.
- [06:17]
C
Hit the shelves. Are you willing to share your background and your religion and how that influenced, like, how were you raised to think about sex?
- [06:26]
D
Oh, my gosh. Yes. So I'm Jewish. I was raised in a traditional home. It's funny because talking to my parents now, they're super supportive.
- [06:35]
C
They know what your business is.
- [06:36]
D
Oh, my gosh.
- [06:37]
A
Yeah.
- [06:38]
D
My mom was at the so Hot Right now event where, you know, she was. She was out there telling everyone about it. Absolutely loved it. Told all her friends, has been sending all her friends the links to watch it, which, by the way, everyone should do, because it was amazing. The female camaraderie was amazing as well, and the information. But, yeah, I was raised in a pretty traditional home and very strong, strict on rules with boys, girls, anything. And so it was. I remember I had a boyfriend when I was 12. And my boyfriend, it's like, I don't know if anyone remembers. It was Merc at the time. It's like, will you go out with me? When I kissed him for the first time, and I think I was 14, I went crying to my mom and I was like, I kissed him. And she's like, it's okay. You've been dating for two years. It's all right. But only kissing.
- [07:30]
C
Oh, that's so sweet of her to be supportive.
- [07:34]
D
She was supportive, but it was a no sex house. Right. Like, it wasn't about that. We obviously had. Had Lots of discussions about things. Because I had to start the pill when I was 13 for the endometriosis, but not in a sexual way. And sex was taboo and a no go. And then I'd say, even having, I now have two daughters, even starting this business, just society, honestly can be so amazing and so cruel. And I've had that many people come up to me like, you're going to set your kids up for failure, they're going to be teased at school. Why would you do this? This is horrific. And I find it really interesting because I'm like, but I'm trying to create a better world for them. That's the point, right? But I think we have so much stigma, whether it's religion or just in general in society or how we're supposed to behave or what we're supposed to do. And I certainly experienced that even being on the pill so young when I went to hospital and they went through like the list of things just like, you shouldn't be on the pill, you're too young to be on the pill. Like you can look at them as an adult and kind of think about them and rationalize, but when you're a child, the shame that inherently becomes part of you because of that is crazy.
- [08:49]
B
100%.
- [08:50]
C
I forget how old your daughters are. Do they understand what you're doing at this point?
- [08:54]
D
So I've got a 12 year old and an 8 year old and the 12 year old absolutely does. And I, I make it age appropriate, right? So I don't say to my 8 year old, oh, mom makes vibrators. And it's for when you have sex and it's so that a woman can have pleasure and orgasm, right? That's not the talk track. It's around mom helps women learn to love their bodies and these products help us learn to love our bodies and help us enjoy ourselves. That's actually what it's about. And so I have no doubt there'll be times where they want to hang their head and pretend that I'm not their mom. But I also hope that they have more times than not where they just feel really proud that their mum was part of a movement to do something better in the world.
- [09:38]
C
I love it. Well, you're doing a better job than me because literally like this week my 9 year old looks at me and she goes, what do you do? And I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe I'm not being clear about what I actually do.
- [09:53]
D
I know, but you do so much. How would you even put that into a Sentence like, I help everyone.
- [09:58]
C
Well, then I was trying. I'm like, well, I podcast and I write books and I talk to people and then I have a clinic. And then she's just like, so. So I was like telling her, and she's like, but what's your job like? Is it their world? Like a teacher?
- [10:12]
D
Exactly.
- [10:13]
C
They're a little more concrete than I think my job is at this point. One of the things I was super interested when I was talking to you about in Australia is like, the role of big vibrator, for lack of a better term. Like, the industry's consolidating. Small companies are being bought by bigger companies that don't have the same heart of the why, and then the products are being compromised. So everybody likes to talk about big pharma, big medicine, big all the things. So I'm like, what is big vibrator doing in the landscape at this point?
- [10:45]
D
It's an interesting world, isn't it? Right. So, you know, I kind of consider two different operating markets, if that makes sense. And the big companies create. Some of them create great products, don't get me wrong. But a lot of products just get bought cheap, packaged really pretty and put out. Right? And that's what you'll find in more accessible prices. It's cheaper prices and things. But essentially there's been a couple of, like, millionaires that came into, probably billionaires that came into the pleasure product market. So the sex market, sex markets, like a. I think it's like a $20 billion industry, right? People look at it and they're like, I'm going to make a fortune. I'm going to make vibrators and my world's going to be set. I'll send my kids to college and life's going to be great. Right. It looks very attractive and it's really actually difficult to work in because there's no regulation, which would seem a positive. But there's also a lot of stigma around how you can get into certain stores. Like, for example, in New South Wales, in, you still can't have pleasure products on ground level. You'll notice for a lot of sex doors, you either have to walk downstairs or upstairs to be able to get to the main levels. Right.
- [11:56]
C
That's a law.
- [11:57]
D
That's a law. We're talking. But essentially what's happened is the billionaires have come in and said, cool, we'll do this. And so they make products on absolute mass scale and they sell it really, really cheap. And then they've been buying other companies. So two Massive companies ended up merging. You'll still see them as the brands that they are, but they're merged under one leadership. And so what ends up happening, it's part of the reason, to be honest, why I haven't taken funding in. For me, it hurts you because you don't have the same dollars to be able to spend on it. But the problem is when you start moving to that level, you have to sacrifice something you're reporting to shareholders or you're reporting someone else. So something has to give. You either got to be able to sell thousands more to justify the price, or you've got to cut the quality or do things. So what's ended up happening is you've got about four or five big players that kind of control the market, that then control the distributors. And then as what's happening in a lot of industries as well, a lot of the distributors are actually deciding, hold on, we'll just become the manufacturers too. So you'll see like a company like Adam and Eve, for example, they have an Adam and Eve range. Traditionally, they would have bought from brands, and they still do, but now they have their own. So it just becomes a much more. It's a smaller industry with less players, but they've got much more control. And so for me, that's okay. I'm a very small niche player and that's not necessarily the space that I want to be in anyway. But. But if you're trying to innovate and come out, to be able to compete on price is really, really challenging. And so you end up either not making as much money, which for a lot of people, that's not okay. For me, that's okay because I love what I do and I do it for different reasons. Or you end up sacrificing quality.
- [13:54]
C
I'm seeing a lot of very expensive vibrators. When I was in college and med school, you could go get a $10 vibrator. It was a piece of crap. You touch, you put silicone lube anywhere near it and it crumbles.
- [14:07]
D
Right.
- [14:07]
C
Like it's a piece of crap. And that was all there was.
- [14:11]
D
Right.
- [14:11]
C
And then it's like the price kept going up and going up. But what I'm seeing now is the price keeps going up and you're not getting all that money. You're not getting $300 more out of it than you would if you got like a high quality product that came in. I'm using US dollars, but like higher double digits, the lower triple digits is going to give you a Very solid vibrator that I think adding more hundreds of dollars onto it is not going to give you any more mind blowing pleasure, health, orgasm, anything like that. There's like a price range that's reasonable. I don't Recommend buying the $10 vibrator. I guess what I'm saying is like for your products, the fact that there are $400, $500 vibrators is like, those aren't better just because they're more expensive. Like there comes to a point where how good televisions get, they're like, it's this many pixels for. But you're like at some point your eye can't tell, right? Like it's like at some point your vulva doesn't care.
- [15:10]
D
No, it doesn't. And I think also, I don't know, for me, and this is just a personal thing, right? But if I have to like tilt my head to understand how a product works, you've lost me. I want to be able to say something and be like, oh, okay, I kind of understand my anatomy. That should work. And I think one of the things that everyone should consider is like, this is just as much a psychological thing as it is a physiological thing. So actually enjoying the experience and having a beautiful product really helps, right? Like when we talk about the $10, I mean, I've owned the $10 as well. Don't worry, we've all had them. And I certainly get sent.
- [15:47]
C
Everybody's been to college.
- [15:48]
D
Everyone's been to college. Everyone was on a budget. Don't budget your vulva. But in general, I think that you look at the quality and things, and this is what upsets me in general about the industry is like, I take it really seriously when someone purchases my product. I want to know that it's going to work. I want to know that the customer service is there. I want to know that the quality is there, that it's been independent, that they can trust that it's a good product. Right? Because there's no regulation. What concerns me in general is that a lot of the cheap stuff will work initially, but. But then it won't work or it'll do something that will hurt you, whatever it is, and you've had a poor experience. And this person on the other end who just took that step to actually invest in themselves has now had a negative experience that they don't want to. And for me, that's the biggest shame of all of this, right? Is that if we finally get someone to be like, I deserve pleasure and I'm going to Invest in myself and pleasure, and let's give them products that really work and are amazing. But I agree with you on the other spectrum to create a product that's at the 4 or $500 mark, unless they're patenting some crazy experience, like, which maybe they are. I don't know enough about them, but I don't really understand how you get to that price. It's a lot to ask someone to invest, especially on a product you can't try before you buy.
- [17:14]
C
Yeah. It's like you don't get to return the swimsuit.
- [17:18]
D
Exactly.
- [17:18]
B
You don't get to return your vibrator.
- [17:21]
C
For me, it's like they keep adding bells and whistles and bells and whistles. And for me, it's like the apps, I know a lot of people, they've. They've got concern about the Internet and privacy and blah, blah, blah. Like, I prefer my vibrators to not have apps. Right. And so it's like, yeah, they keep adding bells and whistles. And it's like, you don't need that to have an orgasm.
- [17:39]
D
Well, I actually think. I mean, look, it's probably because the experience where you came from, pain. Right. And control. So I actually want the control. And it seems like the people who purchase as my products do, but every time in manufacturing, they're like, do you want an app? And I'm like, no. Because, hey, I think there's something to be said for holding the control and being able to manually adjust it. Right. And actually that also puts you in the region so that you're nearby.
- [18:05]
C
You're touching your dissociated over here on your phone.
- [18:09]
D
Exactly. You're not sitting there having. And also take out with a partner, which I'm a massive advocate for. Vibrators with a partner. But for yourself, that should be like a. It's like a meditation practice. It's just you and your vibrator and what you're doing. Not you, your phone and your vibrator.
- [18:27]
C
Yeah. And is your camera on? And do you have Instagram up? Like, there are so many stresses. And then an email comes in. It's not sexy. Yeah, totally. Some of the most amazing feedback you've gotten from your customers.
- [18:42]
D
Oh, my gosh. So this is my favorite part. Legitimately, I absolutely love it, and I love how much people are willing to share. I had a woman. I mean, it's a horrific story, but she emailed me. She had been abused since she was as young as she can remember. I think from 2 years old, she'd never been Able to enjoy penetrative sex. She'd never been able to orgasm. And she was married, she had kids, she was in her 50s. And she emailed to ask which product we kind of went through. Here's what you could do. And she actually bought Amethyst and used it externally to begin with. And she sent me an email about a month later. And she was like, she'd been working up to it. So I think this is what's really important, right? It wasn't a. She got the product, she used it, she had an orgasm. That's not realistic for someone who needs to go on a journey, Right. And has been on a journey. But she said it was the first time she'd been able to enjoy the experience. And she wrote to me and she's like, I'm still a work in progress. That was actually the title of the email. But I'm getting there and I'm learning. I get goosebumps as I talk about. I'm learning to trust. And I just think for me, knowing that, like, being able to help one person makes it worth it, right? And for every person that buys it, if that's their experience, that's amazing. I'm not here to mass market to everyone. That's not the goal. The goal is about really taking people who want a new experience and helping them along the way. That's why whenever I do talks, whenever I'm doing things like, I don't promise that this is a miracle cure, it's not. Right. It's a tool in a suite of tools that can help you if pain's been your experience and if what you're looking for is just a vibrator and an orgasm. It's an amazing vibrator and orgasm as well. But it comes with a lot more than just the product. So that was one of the best. And then I've actually had to be honest. 30% of the people that purchase products are men, which was hugely eye opening to me. I thought I was only marketing to women. And a lot of them reach out and ask, hey, my partner's been experiencing pain, or we're trying to spice it up, what would you suggest? Because instinctively you'd look at garnet, which is a more traditional cock ring, and be like, oh, that's what I want. But actually that's not necessarily what they go to and not what they end up purchasing. But that's been really interesting as well, to see that so many people are invested in women's pleasure and we need to be finding ways to talk to all of them. Because, let's be honest, there's a lot of stigma for men to use pleasure products in the bedroom. So that's.
- [21:24]
C
I would say that's the biggest I think women can get on board for them experiencing pleasure with vibrators. I think we're there at least. I live in a bubble because of what I do. But, like, we're getting close to being there. The biggest stigma I see is I don't want to intimidate the man. I don't want to shame the man. I don't want, like, all of the things that come with, like, what's my partner going to say about this?
- [21:49]
D
Absolutely. And I think that's an area we need to still work on, actually in the process of creating a page on the website that's for men do that they can understand. Yes, I know. We spoke about that. And it's literally in process. Because this is the whole thing. Right. To be honest, Sex and the City was such a great show and it was so good about vibrators. Right. And Samantha was, like, using her vibrators then telling everyone, you don't need a man, you just need a vibrator. And that was, to me, the biggest travesty that that could have been said. Because it isn't an and. Or if you don't have a partner, great. This is an awesome opportunity. But if you do have a partner, this is a way to bring you guys together. Because 70% of women need external stimulation to be able to orgasm. And no penis size or shape or anything is going to be able to do that because it's not focused on the area that needs it. So if you can introduce a pleasure product externally while having sex, everyone wins. It's more enjoyable for everyone. And it has nothing to do with offending the man from being able to pleasure his partner. We're just in this world where I think that's actually probably the biggest stigma is that we expect men to be able to pleasure women and they have it in their heads that that's how it's done. When on the anatomy side, we know actually that's not at all.
- [23:12]
C
Yeah, yeah. I think there's multiple issues of, like, the man doesn't know, the woman doesn't know, the woman doesn't know how to communicate with the man. It's like all of those things you've got to address. It's more than just like, I don't want to hurt his feelings. It's like there's reasons underneath that statement. Let's talk about Dr. Alexandra Dubinskia's paper that got published in the International Urogynecology Journal 2024. I think it's not that I think this paper is old, but maybe it's just like, old in my. I'm like. I'm like, looking at it right now. I'm like, wait, hold on, 2024. This is not that long ago. And this is free online. Anybody can pull this up. It's open access. The role of vibrators in Women's Pelvic Health. An alluring tool to improve physical, sexual and mental health. Very exciting. You're written by both urologists and urogynecologists. And I think when this paper came out there kind of the social media buzz was like, doctors should recommend vibrators. Like, should we prescribe vibrators? You know, kind of opening up the conversation. And, you know, my big concern with any of that is, like, listen, if you don't have a good relationship with your Doctor, you've got 10 minutes and you've got a complex issue like endometriosis and pain. For a doctor to just kind of be flip and be like, get a vibrator that could go poorly. Don't lead with that. But. And vibrators bring in blood flow. And these papers that they're writing, like, of course more study needs to be done, but it's improving tissue.
- [24:45]
D
Oh, it's amazing. I actually met her at ISSWISH years ago when I went and we spoke about her paper, because I just think it was so groundbreaking at the time and groundbreaking that someone had studied it. We all know it. This is the reality, right? We just haven't studied it. We need to continue to do more studies. Let's be honest, we didn't know that the clitoris existed and in what capability until fairly recently. So I think we've got a long way to go. And I agree with you. I think it's a. It's all a very complex area, right? Because you don't necessarily want to go to your doctor and then say, take a vibrator and leave. To me, that's just as bad as saying, go see a pain clinic. You're imagining your pain. You have to treat the issue, but it should be part of the treatment tools that are available. And it's kind of this really challenging thing because when you go see doctors, we talk about white coat syndrome, where you take your blood pressure and it goes up because someone's taking it and you get really anxious. And so I think there's a lot of that and let's be honest, a lot of the reasons we go to our doctors, particularly gynecologists, urologists, everyone is for pelvic exams, which for a lot of people are extremely traumatic. So we've got lots of things going on, which is why this needs to be, like, clinically prescribed. But I call it clinically prescribed, pleasure minded. Because I think it's really important to be both. You don't want to feel like your doctors prescribed you this, and you have to use it in the way that associates you with all the technical clinical terms. You still want to be able to enjoy the pleasure experience. But I think that the more that we study this, the more that we'll learn what the basic benefits are. Because to your point, a doctor saying, hey, do you know that vibration and massage can actually create blood flow? It's something you could consider. Well, that's a great way of opening up a conversation rather than, here, go buy a vibrator. And we need to actually teach women what it does for them. Not just say, use it, but actually understanding. And the same for men, quite frankly. There was a recent study, I think Dr. Rubin was one of the authors of it, that was talking about male massage and prostate massage and using vibrators. And so we're learning so much more. I'm super excited to see what comes out.
- [27:05]
C
Yeah. And I love that pleasure focus. Because if you, you know, when people ask me and then I get all feisty, people are like, so are you saying that women should have sex? How frequent should women have sex? And I get very bristly about the should because I, you know, I always joke that I'm like, it's like, don't forget your eight fruits and vegetables and your eight hours of sleep and your 30 minutes of zone two cardio. And it's like, it becomes a task to accomplish instead of the amazing thing that sex is, which is a release and an escape and a pleasure and a connection. And, like, you can't prescribe that per se, but you can, you can prescribe, like, hey, there are these tools. And the other big myth is, like, we have technology everywhere except for, like, this one realm where we're like, I don't know about that.
- [27:55]
D
It's astounding thinking of how far medicine's come and science has come. And then you think of how new this is. Right? Like, and new. I mean, like, we haven't researched it enough to know you're part of all these amazing health care professionals that are actually demanding that we learn more about it. That we research it, that we start to talk about it and do it, but it's still the minority. Right. And that's why. Anyway, we'll get there one day. But thank you for leading the way on it.
- [28:24]
C
If you had unlimited funds to research something about vibrators, what would it be?
- [28:29]
D
Oh my gosh, everything. Like, literally everything. Like, I want to really understand more about what the health benefits are. Like how does it stimulate in the area? What does that mean on the rest of your body? Right. So we know that dopamine happens when you're having an orgasm. What does the blood flow do? Which areas are best to focus on? Like we're looking at almost MRIs to see where the brain lights up in different areas and the focus on the internal erogenous zones versus external. How does vibration level help? Because we think, you know, as you get older you lose a lot of nerve sensation. So does vibration help with that and being able to actually target some of those areas. But I think just like on a basic level, understanding what is this area look like in terms of where we can stimulate and then yeah, I think understanding what effects it has on the rest of the body, I think really would be good to know more. Again, we know it on a human level, but actually researching it to be able to show the benefit. We're never going to get out of the stigma if we don't actually have data to back it up. We can talk about it all the time, but evidence actually matters and we need to create the evidence to actually be able to have these conversations on a more wide scale.
- [29:54]
C
I'm just thinking about all the wearables now that people have. Like I have a whoop band on right now. In America, continuous glucose monitors are over the counter, so you don't need a doctor prescription for them. So I'm like, is your glucose better managed after an orgasm? Is your sleep deeper if you have an orgasm before you go to bed? Like people can measure these things now. And I wonder if we're going to start seeing people share that data if they're doing that.
- [30:20]
D
There was a documentary a little while ago where I don't think they ever proved it, but it'd be interesting where, you know, we live in this world where we prescribe antidepressants, which I'm absolutely for. I think it's really important. But sometimes I wonder as well as that, can we prescribe happiness? Can we prescribe orgasms? You know, is there something where does it affect your sleep? Does it affect your well being? And I think it's kind of a bit of a chicken in the egg. Right. We know that when you start to use them, you're going to feel better and you're going to have orgasm. You also learn to love your body and appreciate it more. But some of the reasons you don't want to is because you're not yet comfortable with kind of getting to that place. Right. So it's almost just that take the leap and give it a try. And it will probably help with some of the other things you're feeling about yourself. But it is hard to get to that point where, you know, feeling comfortable enough in your body to actually invest in your own pleasure can be a big challenge.
- [31:18]
C
Yeah. Oh, I think the other chicken and egg thing is like, if we do prove that it lowers your glucose or it helps you sleep deeper and it gets all shitty again of like, well, you should have an orgasm because it's better for your sleep and you should like, it almost is like going against again that beautiful thing that sex is and then making it a health benefit because people are like, tell everybody the health benefits of orgasm. And it's like there's a multitude. And we don't even have a lot of data and we still can say there's a multitude.
- [31:45]
D
Right.
- [31:45]
B
We have enough.
- [31:46]
C
And then again it becomes a. You should have an orgasm.
- [31:49]
D
Yeah. I think despite the data, we have to still consider the human. And I think you brought, you know, we were discussing that at the beginning when you were talking about that 10 minute consult. It should be individualized and where you feel it's appropriate and no pressure. I don't think anyone should ever be under pressure. It's like, hey, here's a couple of things that might help for you. If you want to go give it a go. But let someone have the autonomy to make that decision themselves because that's part of what makes it enjoyable, is that you had the control. And especially when we talk about sex, when we know that 20% of people have experienced sexual assault, they've had an experience where they were not in control. We don't want to be part of a world that takes that control away from them in any respect. Right. What we want to do is actually give that back and show how they can find it themselves again. So I think it's really important.
- [32:43]
C
Yeah. I think control and safety time and time and time again is like, if you don't have those things met, everything else is icing on the cake. But there's no cake.
- [32:53]
D
Yeah, I totally agree.
- [32:55]
C
I mean, I love about your Vibrator, really high quality silicone. They just feel really nice. The motor is super quiet, which again, it's not to should people that like, I don't want to hear your vibrator, but it's like, it's just not distracting from the overall experience. And so thinking like, all motors are not created equal. And this, I mean, that's a bonus for like actually having a place in your town to be able to go and try out vibrators. You know, in my town, I have a place that's got a wall and you can go feel how rumbly everything is. Because you can't really understand that on a website.
- [33:28]
D
No, it was really funny. When I designed their products, I used an external quality team who do electronics, and I got them to test the decibel levels. That's how you test sound. And so this poor guy said, you know, I've given people stories for life, to be honest, for the things that they're doing. But it came up at 35 decibels, which is pretty. But one of the things they're saying is like, I think it's really unsexy. When you get into the bedroom, you turn on a vibrator and it sounds like a lawnmower, right? It's like you instantly lose the vibe. And so for me, it was really important. And it's all about how you encase the motor. So that's critical. But the other thing is also the arthritis you get in your hand because traditionally when you make products, you make, you take a plastic product and you wrap it in silicon. But then what happens is the motor can kind of travel the whole way up the plastic. So that's it vibrates the whole way up and you end up holding it in your hand. Like, I'm shaking my hand as I talk to you because I'm just remembering the experience. Whereas when you encase the motor, I use a specific type of liquid silicon where it's just the plastic around the motor and the rest of it's the liquid silicon. So the benefit of it is it can bend and flex, which I think is really important when we're dealing with an area like all bodies are different. And so why would we want the same, exact same carbon copy product that's going to work for you the same as it works for me, but also it makes it less noisy and it's able to move. Right. And so all those things kind of come into it. But it's certainly been interesting in the testing phases of it. But I agree, it's really Hard to tell people online what it sounds.
- [35:10]
C
Yeah, like how loud it is. Well, I think the other point which you just brought up is your products are very flexible. That's unique. I think that's a superpower of your products.
- [35:21]
D
It was actually really part of the design process for that reason. Right. We were talking about, like, our bodies are not the same and particularly with a traditional rabbit, you know, if that's not where your clitoris is or where, where the part of your clitoris is that you feel pleasure and that's not internally, well, then I call it like you're doing yoga around your product. You want the product to do the yoga for you, not you have to do the product. So, yeah.
- [35:48]
C
Oh, I love that. If you could collaborate with like any industry, what would you want to do? Like, it's just thinking outside the box.
- [35:57]
D
Oh my gosh. I could say tech, but I agree with you. I don't know that it needs more tech. I think, to be honest, literally, like understanding more about anatomy, like literally working with healthcare professionals that we design the products that are suitable for the person, to me is the most important. Right. I don't think that we need fancier products in terms of the tech that goes into them yet. I mean, if I'm disproven on that, great. But yeah, I think being able to understand more of the anatomy would be amazing. And then in terms of being able to get the product to more people, like, we've still got all these stigmas, right? You can't advertise on Instagram. You can't even say the word sex most of the time. Like, you have to kind of come up. You spend so much time marketing around the market because you just can't have an actual conversation around women's pleasure. And yet how kids can go to any store and there's condoms everywhere and there's ripped condoms and there's vibrating condoms and there's all these 3,000 things. So I think a little bit of both. Right. Having some help on the accessibility of being able to get there and have these conversations would be great. And then just understanding more about the biology and anatomy would be awesome.
- [37:13]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a huge need, I don't say for beginner products, but like to purposefully not be intimidating and access, like when this is your eighth vibrator, like go for the stuff that you hang from the ceiling and have the app and have all the other people control it and like, that's like pro level tennis. But it's like for a Lot of people, it's like they're intro level. You don't, like you said, you don't want it to be too much for them. And to think, like, I'm not smart enough to figure out sex, boy, I'm a failure, right?
- [37:45]
D
It's so true. But it's interesting. When I was developing the products and I flew over to go see some of the factories and all the products they bought out were like the girthiest, biggest, basically penis looking, phallic looking things. And you know, you instantly like clench your legs together because you're like, no, no, that's not what I want. So it's really interesting. And again, you know, it's funny that the size for some people might be what allows them to orgasm, but when you're using vibration, that's not necessarily the thing. We have to get rid of this expectation. That's what it is. Because actually it's about targeting the right areas, not necessarily the girth of it. But it's certainly an interesting thing. And I'm all for people that want that. That's great.
- [38:31]
C
These are like there's entire factories in China making products for you.
- [38:35]
D
Oh my gosh. Yeah, there are, there are. And they're, and they're making it bigger and better than they can. And they're, you know, literally sitting there bringing it out. They're like, we got the best product for you.
- [38:46]
C
Women are going to love this. The traumatized women are going to love this. No, if I had unlimited research dollars and capabilities. I see a lot of women who are like, they have pain with sex. And I start talking to them and it's like, their partner is very well endowed. And I'm like, never have I ever seen a research paper on the length of her unaroused and aroused vagina and the length of his aroused penis. And actually look at how many heterosexual couples are mismatched size wise. And I would do that only to be like, I have to think it's probably like 20%, 10%, right? Like how many women are below average on vagina size and how many men are above average on penis size. And then like those people are getting together first of all normalizing that. And then I want to normalize the fact that she always thinks she's the problem because she can't accommodate the partner. Instead of being like, how about he's the problem, he's just on the upper end of the echelon. Like that doesn't mean you're broken, right? It just means we gotta adapt to that. And Adapt to what pleasure is and blah, blah. So in my perfect unlimited research funds, I would love to document mismatched pelvic. Pelvic measurements. Have you seen anything like that? I'm like, I'm putting out into the universe to be like, does that exist? Why has nobody done this? Let's stop blaming the woman. I'm like, she has pain. She thinks she's the problem. He's like over here at like 8 inches or, you know, whatever that is in centimeters. But it's like, maybe he's just oversized and you can stop taking the shame of that.
- [40:20]
D
I think the taking the shame is the biggest part of all of it, right? It's. There's not something wrong with you in any of these situations. Like, our bodies are complex and there's often reasons for it, and sometimes there are things that happened to you 20 years ago that you don't necessarily remember, but your body remembers. You know, we create responses to it.
- [40:38]
C
So, yeah, I love it. Well, thank you for coming on. The company is Elixir Play. Amazing videos and education over there and soon to be a page on there for men. So look for that. No pressure, but the podcast will air this spring. Anything else you want to share with the people?
- [40:58]
D
I just wanted to. On behalf of women everywhere, thank you. I have your book, I follow your podcast, the information, and for those of you listening, obviously you've heard from Kelly and the work that she does, but I don't know how much you appreciate how unique that is in this space and how much we desperately need it. So thank you. I don't say that to suck up. I say it because, honestly, it makes a difference to women everywhere. And you're part of the reason that I do what I do. So thank you for leading the ways that we can follow.
- [41:27]
C
Oh, thank you so much for saying that. And thank you for coming today.
- [41:31]
D
Thanks so much.
- [41:33]
B
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of youf Are Not Broken. If you want to dig deeper with me, sign up for my Adult Sex Education Masterclass where you learn adult things like communication skills, anatomy lessons and desire types, and how to talk to your doctor about sexual health concerns. If you want the Adult Sex Education Masterclass for free, join my monthly membership for more in depth, exclusive content, more time with yours truly. A private podcast, coaching and educational empowerment. And you can watch my interviews live and get them immediately without advertising. Head over to www.kellycaspersonmd.com for the membership and adult sex ed Masterclass members. Get the masterclass for free. This podcast is presented solely for educational, entertainment and informational purposes only. I am a doctor, but not your doctor in this format and all of my platforms and guests, including on this podcast are not giving individual medical advice or practicing medicine. See it in consult with your own care team for your individual needs and concerns. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the care and advice of a physician, therapist, or other qualified professional. This podcast does not constitute the practice of medicine, in case you were curious about that and no doctor patient relationship is formed. But I still love you. Using the information on this podcast or any of my platforms is at your own risk. Until next time, Remember, you are not broken.