Iron & Wine

Summary

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes — Iron & Wine (Samuel Beam)

Release Date: April 8, 2026
Host: Pete Holmes
Guest: Samuel Beam (Iron & Wine)

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Episode Overview

In this reflective, humorous, and deeply honest episode, Pete Holmes welcomes Samuel Beam, known as Iron & Wine, for a wide-ranging conversation about creativity, the vulnerability of performance, the influence of personal history, and the mysterious nature of making art that connects. They explore Samuel's journey from solitary bedroom recordings to indie stardom, trade stories about sensitivity and the challenge of staying fresh in creative work, and riff on everything from creative processes and religion to AI and the future of music, all with their trademark mix of sincerity, wit, and mutual respect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Individualist Artist and Standing Out

• Enneagram 4 & Artistic Identity
  Pete opens by speculating that Samuel might be an Enneagram 4 ("the individualist"), noting Sam's "beard, hair, and clothes" and the distinctiveness of his music ([02:20]-[03:28]).
  Pete: "It's painful to not be yourself. Would you agree with that?"
  Sam: "Yeah, I definitely would because I suck at being other people." ([03:47])

• Authenticity in Art
  Both discuss how being true to themselves is core to their work, with Pete sending out "sonar pings" of weirdness and Sam noting the importance of “getting out of my own way” while creating.
  Sam: "I feel like there's a lot of times in making art that I just need to get out of my own way. I'm, like, so stubbornly myself...It’ll be nice to absorb other things and other... yeah." ([04:29]-[04:48])

2. Collaboration vs. Manufactured Art

• Both critique overly commercial collaboration ('the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup approach') and talk about the unique excitement and challenge of musical collaborations that aren’t forced. ([05:00]-[05:47])
  Sam: "You can only smell your own breath so long."

3. The Power and Vulnerability of Sensitivity

• Music as a Deeply Personal, Absorbing Experience
  Both Pete and Sam admit to being sensitive to music—so much so that they sometimes avoid new music because it "gets in too deep" ([16:01]-[17:08]).
  Sam: "I'm like you—really sensitive to it where I don't listen to a whole lot of music anymore. It's just not a passive experience, you know?"
  Pete: "If I'm spacious and resourced and I listen to one song from almost anybody... I'll just cry that somebody... they did this and they shared it." ([16:41])

4. How Music Leaves a Fingerprint

• Association & Memory
  They talk about how hearing a song in a movie or at a particular event adds layers of meaning and emotional resonance.
  Pete: "Music has fingerprints all over it. Sometimes I won't like something because it was my dad." ([10:39]-[11:00])
  Further riffing on musical associations, Iron & Wine joke about live performances turning into “a vampire detection device” for Twilight fans ([11:43]-[12:01]).

5. Breaking Through in a Saturated World

• "There are so many musics…"
  Pete brings up the overwhelming abundance of contemporary music and the role of serendipity in cutting through the noise ([13:28]-[14:19]).
  Sam: "If I knew the answer to that question... Sometimes there's a formula and sometimes it's just pure luck." ([14:13])

• Music as Accessory vs. Experience
  Sam explores the idea that, unlike other arts demanding focused attention, music is often an accessory—intertwined with life events which gives it lasting power ([14:18]-[15:00]).

6. Artistic Process & The Elusive "Good Song"

• Embryonic Songwriting
  Sam describes his process as messy and non-linear; a lot of "mumbling nonsense" into his phone or notebook, with melodies and key words emerging haphazardly ([23:17]-[25:04]).
  Sam: "Most of the time I'm sitting with a guitar, mumbling nonsense... sometimes a phrase will come out fully formed. Then you just start developing—a way through the fog." ([23:14])

• Letting Go of Predicting Hits
  Sam admits he's repeatedly surprised by which tracks connect, noting his most popular songs were often ones he didn’t expect to catch on ([25:30]-[25:46]).

7. The Improvisational Nature of Performance

• Both draw parallels between musical and comedic improvisation—highlighting that spontaneity and freshness are essential, even if the audience’s perception is often different from the performer’s internal experience ([36:41]-[44:08]):
  Sam: "Every show is a little different... The dynamic, between takes, if the ensemble is cooking and in tune and listening, can be very different." ([35:56])

• Chasing the Wet Stone
  Pete compares trying to keep comedy material or songs fresh to carrying a beautiful wet stone from the ocean, only for it to dry up and lose its magic by the time you show it off ([38:53]).

8. On Naming, Persona & Band Identity

• Hilarious riffing on comedic vs. musical stage names and the role of persona ([18:32]-[21:46]).
  Sam: "The only reason I picked a band name was because Sam Beam on a marquee just sounds stupid... If you were like, 'I'm Sammy Beam,' you would be like, this from a Sammy." ([19:04]-[20:16])

9. DIY Beginnings & Serendipity

• Analog Roots & The Tascam Four-Track
  Sam details getting his start via a four-track recorder, trading music tapes with Ben from Band of Horses, sending Sub Pop a demo that became a single ([57:00]-[58:57]).
  Sam: "We would send each other mixtapes...I still don't understand my life before that moment." ([59:02])

• From Bedroom to Stage
  Sam, unused to playing live before his indie label signing, describes the horror of first touring and adjusting from tapes to concerts ([72:20]-[73:20]).

10. Recording Philosophy: Painting With Sound

• Sam comes from a fine arts background and likens crafting songs on tape to painting: "making some marks, thinking about it, developing, changing it, shining it until it was ready to show" ([64:06]).

11. Religion, Childhood & Philosophy

• Faith, Baggage, & Cultural Literacy
  Both discuss religious upbringings—Sam from evangelical roots, Pete from another Christian flavor. Sam reflects on letting go of some religious baggage, salvaging parts that hold moral value ([82:43]-[88:28]).
  Sam: "It's amazing how many people don't [embrace] 'love your neighbor as yourself.'... those things are important." ([87:34])

• They joke about childhood rapture anxiety, and talk sincerely about mystical lenses for interpreting stories ([86:03]-[89:16]).

12. Creativity as Spiritual Practice

• Sam sees his writing and music-making akin to meditation—a centering, opening practice ([95:44]-[96:17])
  Sam: "I don't meditate because I write. It's like the same thing for me."

13. AI & The Future of Art

• Cautious optimism about AI; both express fascination and apprehension, equating the change to the dawn of the internet or electricity, recognizing that the future artistic uses will be both astonishing and unpredictable ([99:14]-[104:22]).
  Sam: "It’s going to be complex... but you’re not in charge of whether it happens or not. It’s happening. The thing is going to change everything." Pete: "There’s a Tarantino out there that’s going, ‘I can make my car blow up now. How cool is that?’" ([102:22])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sensitivity:
  Pete ([16:41]): "If I'm spacious and resourced and I listen to one song from almost anybody, it'll just—I’ll just cry that somebody... did this and they shared it."

• On Songwriting Process:
  Sam ([23:14]): "Most of the time I'm sitting with a guitar, mumbling nonsense... sometimes a phrase will come out fully formed... looking for a way through the fog."

• On Breaking Through in Music:
  Sam ([14:13]): "If I knew the answer to that question... how to always break through... I’d be on the Joe Rogan [show]. Sometimes it’s formula, sometimes it’s just pure luck, you know—serendipity."

• On Creativity vs. Mathematics:
  Sam ([34:12]): "Math sucks. I hate doing math. There’s always, like, you’re either right or wrong. Where music is not. It’s the opposite."

• On Persona and Naming:
  Sam ([19:15]): "The only reason I picked a band name was because Sam Beam on a marquee just sounds stupid..."

• On AI’s Potential:
  Sam ([100:07]): "It’s like, you know, trying to talk to someone about the internet in 1991... It’s hard to understand."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:20] — Enneagram and "standing out" in art
• [03:47] — Pain of not being yourself
• [05:00] — Collaboration and authenticity
• [10:39] — Musical fingerprints and emotional associations
• [13:28] — The sea of music; breaking through
• [23:14] — Sam's songwriting process
• [28:00] — The "embryonic" beginnings of songs
• [38:53] — Chasing the 'wet stone' of fresh performance
• [57:00] — DIY roots and the Tascam 4-track story
• [64:06] — Treating recording like painting
• [82:43] — Religious upbringing and integrating the good
• [87:34] — "Love your neighbor as yourself"
• [95:44] — "I don't meditate because I write..."
• [99:14] — AI and the future of art

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Tone & Style

The episode is a mix of playful banter, self-deprecating humor, deep reflection on the artistic life, and bursts of silly, improvisational riffing—a signature of Pete Holmes' style. Samuel Beam is gentle, humble, and quick-witted, offering insights with honesty, often punctuated by Pete’s contagious enthusiasm and openness.

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Closing

The conversation winds through Iron & Wine’s origin story, the challenges of translating intimate recordings to live shows, a thoughtful look at religion’s residue, and a glance at technology’s future. Both participants are wary yet hopeful about AI, cherish the luck and openness that create real art, and affirm the profound, life-changing power of putting yourself out there—however weird.

Pete's closing line:
"Would you say keep it crispy? It's just how we end."
Sam:
"Keep it crispy." ([110:20])

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Useful for: Anyone interested in the creative process, singer-songwriters, fans of Iron & Wine or Pete Holmes, and those curious about the intersection of art, vulnerability, modern culture, and meaning.

Transcript

[A]

You made it with. You made it with. You made it with. Oh, yeah. You made it with. Yes, you made it weird. You made it weird with Pete Holmes. What's happening, weirdos? This is an exciting one. This is Samuel Beam, also known as Iron and Wine, one of my favorite performers, musicians, writers. He's incredible. If you don't know Iron and Wine, I don't know what to do with you. They're incredible. They also did the soundtrack for a movie that I just shot last year, which will be out this year, I'm sure, called St. Peter. The soundtrack really elevates the movie because they are that good. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so excited to get into it. Only a couple things to plug on my end. Go to YouTube.com it's a website and you can watch my new special that I filmed in Portland, Oregon. It's called Silly Silly Fun Boy. People have been finding it and loving it and that means so much to me. I worked really hard on it. I think it's my best special to date and you can watch it absolutely free on YouTube. Silly, silly fun Boy. This is my kids book, Spells to cast on your parents. It's a book of real life magical spells that kids can cast on their parents to prove to a little dragon named Jesse who guards the book that says it's only for wizards. So you kind of have to prove that you're magic to make sure he doesn't burn your buns to a crisp. So check that out. You can order it wherever you get your books and pre orders really help us get that, get that book out there. And I'm very proud of it. So consider pre ordering that and also go to petehomes.com I got my tour dates. I'm going to go to my own website right now, which feels kind of weird. Tallahassee, Irving, Texas. Los Angeles, Denver, Durham, Charleston, Sacramento, Vancouver, Madison, Seattle, Portland, and San Diego. All of them are on peteholmes.com in the meantime, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for checking it out. Samuel Beam, Iron and wine. Get into it.

[B]

Hi, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus here and

[A]

I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me

[B]

with Cyndi Lauper on Amazon Music.

[A]

Cyndi may be a girl who just

[B]

wants to have fun, but for 40 years, she has brought playfulness and a dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ advocacy,

[A]

her astonishing music career, and pick up

[B]

a whole lot of wisdom along the way.

[A]

Listen now only on Amazon Music included with Prime. How are you? I'm good. I like your. You got. That's a bold. So an enneagram 4, just to include you is the individualist. And I. I have a sinking. I'm a. I'm an enneagram4, but in like a. Who cares? But I get the feeling that you might be just because of your beard and your hair and your clothes. Use the mic. We'll just start on this.

[B]

And everything that's.

[A]

And everything about you. Well, it's one of the reasons I love your music is. It's not. I would say that a lot of pop music, and I like pop music, is often trying. I mean, like, real manufactured. Like, guys got together and built a group and they're trying to make something that's like. That is falling into the norm. And I tend to like music like yours, where the vocal is interesting, the guitar is interesting, the production is interesting. But interesting is just another way of saying.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Standing out. It's trying to stand out a little bit.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Or is not afraid to be. Yeah. Personal and unique, like, sort of.

[A]

Can I interrupt?

[B]

Please?

[A]

You've been talking too much. Shut the fuck up. No, you. It's painful to not be yourself. Would you agree with that?

[B]

I mean, yeah, I definitely would because I suck at being other people.

[A]

I'm the worst of being people.

[B]

But some people like it.

[A]

Some people. Well, with full. I'm obsessed with my wife, Val. She does mirror people. That's one of her strategies. My strategy is to send out sonar pings of, like, I'm weird. Like this. Will you join me? Yeah. But Val will go, like, you would love her. It's a great way to. Are you familiar with Val? Okay, some people are. You never know. She's on the show. But for me, that feels unsafe. Like, on a fundamental level to, like, misrepresent how I'm feeling and stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Tell me what that is.

[B]

No, I definitely recognize that for sure. Yeah. I feel like there's a lot of times in making art that I just need to get out of my own way. I'm, like, so stubbornly myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It'll be nice to just sort of to absorb other things and other. Yeah.

[A]

Am I hearing you right? Like, you could, you know, put in something. This is not a. I love your music, but you could, like, try to, like, back into some hook or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A collaboration.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. No, honestly, lately, that's been the best. The best. Most exciting part of what I do. Yes. Collaborating with other people and. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I mean, you can only smell your own breath so long.

[A]

It's from Diary of a One kid, which I'm reading to my daughter. He gets up on Saturdays because he can only smell his breath for so long. So it's kind of weird that you said that. I actually meant the more. Not nefarious, but the more marketing based collaboration.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Somebody might be like, oh, right. Something with. And I like post Maloney. I'm not.

[B]

Oh, no, I know what you mean.

[A]

I'm just saying somebody might be like, yeah, you should do it, but they're trying to force it or something.

[B]

It's the only way to. Yeah. It's like they're trying to constantly make a new Reese's peanut butter cup.

[A]

You know, that's exactly right.

[B]

You love chocolate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You love peanut butter.

[A]

You got my salmon. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[B]

But you know, instead of. Because the music kind of sounds the same, so. But they're just trying to, you know, just see what.

[A]

They're trying to market it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, like a Marvel movie can often be very similar to.

[B]

They figured out a long time ago. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, they figured it out. But you want the Hulk and Captain America doing each other. Well, each other hardcore. That would go huge.

[B]

So big.

[A]

Like, Hulk has to be a bottom out of courtesy. Out of courtesy. Like just out of. It's not his preference.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

It's a safety. What a weird place to start. You're. You're so welcome. I'm such a fan. Thank you for being here. We don't know say that, but I do want to, like, fold. Oh, man.

[B]

Yeah. You don't do a whole lot of musicians. You seem to have mostly comedians, which is amazing to see people behind, you know, without the microphone and the. On the stage just sort of being themselves. It's really fun.

[A]

I got the heyday of that, man. Like, I think people might be a little bit more tired. Well, certainly are more tired of that. I got like. Because we've been doing the show for over, I don't know, over a decade.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And now I know. And at the beginning, boy, we were just like let out of the penitentiary. And we were just like, oh, my God, what's your process? And now I do think people are a little tired of comedians smelling their own farts. Well, you know, my work on Thursday,

[B]

let me tell you.

[A]

Yeah. So we've had a good amount of musicians. Musicians. Am I saying that right? Music. Musicians on. And it's always a nice change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also very similar. Yeah. Do you. Do you relate to the comedians, you know, and the. The lifestyle or the approach or.

[B]

Definitely the travel, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Or just, you know, developing a thing that you present in front of people.

[A]

Yeah. Regularly and, like, would you agree? A Persona. I mean.

[B]

Yeah. Iron and.

[A]

I mean, you even named yourself something else as if to say. Yeah, just know, this is like that version, right. Of me.

[B]

Yeah, you guys should do that instead

[A]

of, like, we do. I mean, I know. You mean, I figure out a band name. I know. I should be like, tuna. Tuna time. You're gonna go see Tuna Time and

[B]

call yourself Bottom Hulk.

[A]

Bottom Hulk. Bottom Hulk Productions. Bottom hul. Parentheses. It's not his preference. It's a safety issue. Bottom hole.

[B]

Playing it safe.

[A]

You do have a good. Can I ask. Kind of a. I hope it's not embarrassing, but you have a really nice way with words, and I sound stupid saying that.

[B]

No, that's very kind of you. Thank you.

[A]

But listening to you. You want. I like. I love the way you play, and I love the way you sing and, like, the whole thing.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

I want to hear what you're saying. And it's. And people want to listen to poetry, but no one does. You know what I mean? Are you that way? When I hear a poem, I'm like, why don't I start every day with a poem?

[B]

Yeah, I do, too. I do the same thing. I need to read more.

[A]

I need to read more poetry. Like, specifically. It'll touch me. And I'm even on mailing list where I get mailed poems, and I just spam because I'm just spam free verse this. Like, I don't want them to touch me in my. Stop touching me. Stop touching me. Bottom hole.

[B]

Well, there's only so many. You know, you have these poems that you love so much that have moved you and made you think of life, your life differently, but they're not all like that, bro.

[A]

It's like bad improv. Good improv.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Amazing. Bad improv. How do you feel about music if you're in the Nashville airport and there's a lot of local Nashville musicians playing?

[B]

Yeah. Sometimes you walk by and you're like, oh, my God, blown. That's amazing.

[A]

And. But you might hear somebody up and coming. How do you feel about underdeveloped music? With kindness. You might even include yourself in that. Like, can you like bad pizza or is it, like, too painful to listen to?

[B]

Oh, you know, but it's also. It's. I mean, there's definitely Both great and terrible, or just. Most usually just kind of boring. But it's also funny. Music is such a. A strange thing to interact with because. Strange, but just fun because you. You know, when you're young, you hear things, you're like, oh, my God, it's incredible. I've never heard anything like that. And you get obsessed, and then later you hear it, you're like, I don't know, it's okay. But also the opposite. Sometimes you're, you know, something you just missed or you down, you didn't like at all, but you hear it later in your life, you're like, okay.

[A]

Because wouldn't you agree that music has, like, fingerprints all over it? Sometimes I won't like something because it was my dad.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

I'll be like, fuck that, that's my dad.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I was just thinking about, like, John Mulaney. Whenever he does snl, I feel like he has the talking heads. He loves the talking head and. I'm sorry, I'm blanking.

[B]

As you should.

[A]

Yeah, I know. David Byrne.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just said to Matt McCarthy, My dear friend, I was like, I don't know why, but when I hear talking heads, I just go like, this is just my dad's music. I do hate my father. I don't hate it, but it is so much closer to an issue with. Then it is an issue with that. But I'll hear it. And I'm being driven to school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the association is different.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I almost envy that John can hear it. You know what I mean? I'm like, how do you get past? Because it is older. So I kind of think about being a child. It's why, like, you had a song in the Twilight movie, right? One of the Twilight movies, and people have this. They probably love that song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it was the vampire people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that what you said? Yeah.

[B]

And the concert is like a vampire detection device.

[A]

They start freaking out.

[B]

Yeah. Start playing. They're like. You're like.

[A]

And, you know, they go paler.

[B]

You know who the vampires are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They just get very.

[A]

They go one shade whiter.

[B]

It's fun. It's amazing.

[A]

But, like, the music and I. I'm talking too much. I'm excited to meet you, but, like,

[B]

excited to meet you.

[A]

I want to give it to you, though, the music. Music Fingerprints. It's. It's. It's like a iPhone. It's so impressionable. So pairing it with a movie is a really smart thing to do.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Because it makes people go like, oh, I remember that time when I saw or seeing a concert is sort of like a big version of like. Well, he played that like. I like the song. Oh, no. You think you're gonna take her away with your money and your cocaine? Oh, yeah, yeah. She's gonna listen. Listen to her heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I like that song more because when I saw him at the Hollywood bowl, he opened with it and it kind of confirmed. I was like, I knew that was a good one. But I have this.

[B]

I had your back, Tom.

[A]

Right. I knew. I like that song for a reason, but he's the thing. It was a B side. But then he opened the show with it.

[B]

Did he end the show? End of the song. Go, Pete. You were right.

[A]

You were right, Pete.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

And then he threw me a cigarette, like, tp. But I. When I hear that song now, I remembered that where I was standing and all that. So this is obvious what I'm saying. Like, wouldn't you agree that, like, as you're trying to get music out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a world that disagree if you want, but it seems like there's so many musics.

[B]

There's so many music.

[A]

There's so many musics. To put it in a Canadian way. There's much music. There's so much Canadian music. I just mean, like, you ever been on YouTube and you're like, jesus, this person is ripping it. They're amazing. It's like. It's like a big. Who cares? So when you're trying to get music heard. Yeah, right. Talk about that, would you, please? I can't keep talking. I'll pre associate this whole episode. I'm just saying. You see what I'm saying? Like, it needs to be married to an event or a movie or a thing. What are your thoughts?

[B]

I mean, how to break through Breakthrough or to the other side. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

They played it on a late night show. The Doors played that song on late night.

[B]

They did.

[A]

And it was an event. Yeah, we don't have that anymore. So you have to be like, I

[B]

feel like if I knew the answer to that question, like, how to always break through.

[A]

You'd be on the Joe Rogan.

[B]

There are many people who could tell you try to just, you know, convince you they know how. It's just, you know, sometimes there's a formula and then there's. Sometimes it's just pure luck, you know, serendipity. But I do think it's wild how. Yeah. Music is like an accessory. It's like, different than a lot of the other art forms where you like even painting. You go to the painting and you stand in front of the painting or play or, you know, a movie. Yeah. Pretty much all the others. You have to give yourself over to it. Whereas music is an accessory. And that's why we, like associate parts of our life with the sound. And this, you know, the cliche is,

[A]

I lost my virginity to that song. So it's an also rank. Is that. Are we saying the same thing? You wouldn't watch a movie and they wouldn't be playing stand up underneath the breakup scene.

[B]

It's possible. It's possible.

[A]

They do market. This is a new market I'm going for. They could. I feel like Noah Baumbach would do that. Like, there'd be a great stand up clip and they're breaking up. But you just hear like, Louis.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a new way. But it would distract. Music has the ability to completely overwhelm your senses when you let it in. It's too much. It can. It can like, light you up sometimes at Christmas. Really. Or it can be in the background and you're like, that was perfect. That was the perfect use of that song.

[B]

Yeah. It's also funny how some people are more sensitive to it than others. You know, some people, like, yeah, it's cool. And then other people, you know, it

[A]

moves them, lose their mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll say as a more. Yeah, it's cool person. Sorry to disappoint. It's actually because it gets in me too. It's. It's almost unbearable.

[B]

Defensive.

[A]

So I put up a defense. Yeah. Above a wall. And I also. I think most of it, a lot of it is really quite horrible.

[B]

You're not getting in this, Pete.

[A]

You can't come in. And then just like with people that guard to stop, like, let's say, a shitty earworm from getting in me at the. At the supermarket. It's a weird sentence. I might be. I might be poo, pooing. Good stuff. But I do the same thing with people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I mean? I don't like that guy's T shirt or his hair or whatever. And like, that might have been my best friend.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's actually an over sensitivity to music. Because when I. If I'm spacious and resourced and I listen to one song from almost anybody, it'll just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll just cry that somebody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of all the horrible things you could do, you could punch somebody. You could burn down a building. They did this and they shared it. Like, I'll just be overwhelmed by that it almost doesn't matter who it is.

[B]

It's a juicy wormhole.

[A]

It's a juicy wormhole. You like that?

[B]

Are you.

[A]

It's a dumb thing to say, but,

[B]

like, you, like, I. I have a hard time. I. I am like you and really sensitive to it. Where I don't listen to a whole lot of music anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just not a. It's not a passive experience, you know?

[A]

Can I say.

[B]

I bet you will.

[A]

Can I. Yeah. I'm gonna like Travis. Whatever. Can I say on. That's how I feel. It's not a passive experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. All of it. Art. All of it. All of art is not passive. And it's. And it's. And it's crowding in there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I kind of envy. Not really, but I can sort of envy people that are just like, I eat it all. I go to the. I go to Bonnaroo, and I just watch everybody. I'm like, what?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are people who are not. You know, they can take pain in a lot ways than other people. You know, they have different receptors. I think a lot of creative types are very sensitive, whether they share it or admit it. Yeah.

[A]

Not.

[B]

They're especially a lot of comedians.

[A]

I completely agree. Do you count yourself in that comedian?

[B]

Not come today.

[A]

Well, you had bottom. You had the best laugh at the club.

[B]

I just think you guys should be able to, you know. You don't have no idea how many band names come up in the van or the bus or whoever, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every time we're talking, it's like, that's a good band name. Yeah. Why don't you guys get to do it?

[A]

I know. I do think in the silliest, slightest way, deciding to call myself Pete, that's a little tell of what you're dealing with. If I was like, if you're gonna go see Peter Holmes.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

I think that guy's more of a storyteller. Maybe he reads the newspaper and just riffs on it.

[B]

Oh, Peter of the gentry.

[A]

But Pete is like, hey. And I. I'm just. Yeah. What's up? It's Pete. Oh, yeah. I love Pete and Pete Holmes. Pete Holmes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's, you know, there's a speediness to it. Peter, the R and Pete. Peter slows you down. It should be over.

[B]

Yeah. It's too much.

[A]

Then here comes Holmes.

[B]

By the time you finish the R, you could be dead.

[A]

For somebody with a. With a stage name. You have a great name, though. What's your full Name. Because your middle name.

[B]

Samuel Irvin Beam. See, on the marquee. That's lame.

[A]

Tonight, honestly, the Samuel Irvin Beam.

[B]

That's the only reason I picked a band. Because Sam Beam on a marquee just sounds stupid.

[A]

Sam Beam.

[B]

Sam Beam. It's like, it doesn't, like, roll out Samuel.

[A]

Samuel Irving Irvin.

[B]

Yeah. Irvin.

[A]

Irvin.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Irvin's like the name of a backwoods, like, serial killer in a. In a movie. I'm not saying it really is. Yeah, yeah, Irvin sure is. Irvin's coming. Or it's like. It's like Hollywood's. Guess it would. Like a Mormon priest would be named or. Yeah, there's something.

[B]

It's an older name.

[A]

Yeah, it's an old name is all I'm saying. Thank you.

[B]

That's what you're saying. That's what you're saying. But I'm not.

[A]

I'm not mad at it. I do think you could have been Samuel Urban Beam.

[B]

I. You know, to be blunt, when I was a kid, people call me Sammy. And then when I got a little older, like went to college, like, I'm Sam now, and I kind of wish that I hadn't because Sammy is much more fun to say.

[A]

Sammy Beam.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But Sammy Beam is somebody. You know what I mean? Like that Sammy Beam. If you were like, I'm Sammy Beam, you would be like this from a Sammy.

[B]

But they would never know because it wouldn't be on the marquee.

[A]

Marquee. But it would say Sammy. But it says Iron Wine is exactly. You chose that because you just didn't like the way that Sam Beam looked on a marquee. Yeah, simple.

[B]

That simple.

[A]

And it was a supplement I read

[B]

because I was going straight to the top. I had my career mind decisions making at the very beginning.

[A]

See, I felt that, you know what

[B]

the world needs some quiet broken Banjo sounding thing.

[A]

You were at the forefront of quiet Broken Banjo, though. I mean, if there was a stock called Quiet Bearded Broken Banjo, I saw

[B]

this unused ladder straight to the top, and I was like, why is no one taking this?

[A]

Well, I'll tell you, as someone who lived pretty Broken banjo. Quiet Beard guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nobody saw that coming. We didn't know we wanted it.

[B]

It was right there. The ladder was right there.

[A]

It was right there. And you and Sufyan, I guess, like,

[B]

if you want, took him off the

[A]

ladder, get the ladder away, feel the ill of pain. I don't know if that made any sense. How about some ill of pain? It's a Great thing to say before you throw Sufjan Stevens off the ladder. But he. I mean, right? I mean, it was them. Yeah, I guess. Like Band of Horses. They don't have banjos, but like that whole.

[B]

Not yet.

[A]

Not yet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't discount the horses. Don't discount them. But like, to your thing, like, there. There's something about the highly sensitive people, and I think we are an anxious generation, but we don't want to listen to Anya. I'm not calling you Anya. I. Again, I. I'm not gonna.

[B]

I love those records.

[A]

I listen to Enya sometimes. Yeah. What's wrong with it? But there was something kind of. That's our mom's music or something like that. Spa music. But, like, I wanted to. I wanted something to, like, make my heart go down a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? I don't want jock jams. Talk about that. Tell me what that makes you feel.

[B]

Well, I mean, you don't always want it. You know, there's some people who. Who look at music as a very, like, utilitarian tool to put me in a mood that I want to.

[A]

Yeah. Get me.

[B]

Get from here to there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, Whereas, you know, there's lots of different types of music.

[A]

How do you look at it?

[B]

I mean, I definitely rock with that stuff sometimes, you know, you just want to. You like, feel like a. Yeah. Especially when I was younger, I played like, you know, a lot of my friends are in metal bands and stuff. We just listen to a lot of. Just, you know, you just got a lot of energy. But when I sit to write a thing, that's not usually where I'm coming from, because it's just not my personality.

[A]

Now, look, will you allow me? You're sitting down to write. Are you looking? This is going to sound so stupid, but are you trying to get your lasso around a feeling? Is that the. Is that the idea?

[B]

No.

[A]

I wouldn't even put it how you feel.

[B]

Oh, no, because I don't know how I feel. I don't really go into it, like, thinking of, like, a topic that I want to talk about. You. You just are engaging with writing. Sometimes a thought comes and you write it down. Honestly, most of the time I'm sitting with a guitar mumbling nonsense. You know, just finding a melody, like a song, and then a word will pop out, and then you start building from there. Or sometimes a phrase will come out fully formed. Then you just start. Yeah. Developing a thing that. Looking for a way through the fog Searching for sugar.

[A]

Man. I think I know what that document is about exactly. Writing a song. Yeah, I, I. Okay, so you're not the first to tell me this. You carry a notebook, are you? Writing things down? Little phrases?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And phone, too. A lot.

[A]

Do you sing melodies to your phone?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You do?

[B]

Yeah, we play all the time. Yeah.

[A]

Will you? I think it would be helpful to the musicians listening.

[B]

Oh, we'll see about that.

[A]

Or at least the people.

[B]

No, but I know what you mean. It's just an embryonic thing.

[A]

Embryonic. Embryonica. That's my dubstep name.

[B]

You play the Embryonica?

[A]

I play the Embryonica. It's like the harmonium. Like, it's a distance instrument, like the bagpipes. People run away when you play.

[B]

No idea what this is.

[A]

See, I'm excited.

[B]

See? I mean, keep going.

[A]

It's good.

[B]

It's good. You can almost make a word out of that. Yeah. You know, it's just a bunch of garbage that you're just sort of, like, looking for a. Some sound hook or some word that pops out.

[A]

Because if it's gonna sound good, interesting, whatever, for lack of a better word, we'll say good interesting to me. It might sound good interesting to you. You're just kind of the first to hear it when you say it.

[B]

Yeah. I never understand, like, why people think you're like, oh, people will like this. I have no idea what people like, you know, I mean, I mean, there's so much I don't think people can predict that. You know, the most popular songs of mine have been ones that I didn't ever have thought.

[A]

Not B sides, but, like, you were just like, who knows.

[B]

Beeswax.

[A]

Beeswax. Then you're B sides. That's how musicians talk. Who threw Sufyan off that ladder? None of your B sides. It's like a street joke. Your B sex. None of your be sex. That's what honey is.

[B]

That sure is.

[A]

It's just what it is, guys. Sorry. They think we're freaks. They think we're freaks. You know they're eating it, right? We just come in their home, take their sex afterglow.

[B]

They come in our home.

[A]

We. They come in our home and we put it on our toast. We to the bees. We are the kinkiest group. Yeah. They go out and fuck the flowers and then we clean up. We're their honey dumpsters.

[B]

Yeah, that's that yum dumpster buzzing sound. It's just if you slow it down, it's like they're going,

[A]

yeah, exact. All we hear it because we're so far away. It's. That is good.

[B]

Dark.

[A]

You know, they're freaky. They call one the queen. Yes, my queen. That is a kink. Yes, my queen. My sweet syrup is on its way, my queen. This is getting too much for me. I like it. Muchos. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You guys know I love therapy. Val loves therapy. We talk about it on the show all the time, how it has been a huge game changer in both of our lives. And something I think we don't talk about enough is financial stress. Money stuff. It's not just about numbers. It's about anxiety. It's sleep, it's relationships. And I know for me, I get money stress. I grew up with a lot of weird beliefs around money. Like if things weren't working or if I wasn't being productive or producing in a certain way, didn't just mean it wasn't working. It meant there was something wrong with me fundamentally and there was something defective. Therapy can help with that, especially with money stuff. Trust me on that. It's about helping you deal with that stress and those stories you're carrying around. Money. It can help you unpack that stuff, build healthier habits, and just feel less alone about it, which is huge. BetterHelp has over 30,000 licensed therapists and help more than 6 million people worldwide. You just fill out a short questionnaire and they match you with a therapist. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime. And it's entirely online. It is so easy and fast and helps when life feels overwhelming. Therapy can help. Sign up for 10% [e-mail] weirdo that's betterhelp.com weirdo. I order everything online. So why would blinds be different? Why am I going to a store under fluorescent lighting to look at blinds all day? There's a better way to buy blinds, shades, shutters and drapery. And it is called three day Blinds. They are the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the US and right now you can use my URL. Three day blinds.com weird. They're running a buy one, get one half off deal, 50% off the second one. They bring the showroom to you. It's so easy. A professionally trained design consultant with like 10 plus years of experience comes to your home, helps you choose what actually works in your space, and gives you a free no obligation quote the same day. And then they handle everything, which is great for me. Design, measure, install, no guessing, no stress. Plus you can choose from thousands of options including light filtering, blackout and even motorized blinds that work with Alexa, which is honestly amazing. We are doing this for our game room. We're putting blackout curtains or shades up in there. Black it out. Zelda. Big screen. Amazing. Right now, get quality window treatments that fit your budget with 3 Day Blinds. Head to 3 Day Blinds. Weird. For their buy one get one 50% off. Deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery blinds for a free no charge, no obligation consultation. Head to three day blinds.com weird one last time. That's buy one get one 50% off when you head to the number 3D a Y blinds.com weird. Do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines, especially health headlines, and just thinking

[B]

that can't be true?

[A]

Well, I certainly do.

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health claims and some especially terrifying changes in public health. What's in store for us in 2026? I'm Chelsea Clinton and we're back with season two of my podcast, that Can't Be True.

[B]

Follow along and catch up on season

[A]

one wherever you get your podcasts. Where were we? Lasso around. A feeling is the last thing. Oh, yeah, no, no, that's not where we were. We were talking about. You're the first to hear it. Oh, you don't know what's going to be good.

[B]

But that's just. That's also just my process. You know, there are definitely people who say, I had a thought this morning and I'm going to write a song about it this morning. And they could probably nail it and make all of us feel that way. It's just not what I go into writing for.

[A]

Okay, well, I'm trying to see where you are on the spectrum. I know. So Matt Berninger from the national, who also is a mumbler, he'll listen to the song and he mumbles, I love Matt so much. He was looking for that phrase. So he put out his solo record, Serpentine Prison. And I'm like, what is that?

[B]

And he's like, it's a serpentine prison.

[A]

It's a serpentine prison. I think he was like, it's nothing. And then he'll write, he's very open about this. The rest of the song is like rhyming dictionary.

[B]

There's a lot of rhyming game that goes on.

[A]

So the song is. Yeah, but it seems a little. I hate to force the word shamanic, but it's. It's in the way that you're kind of just trying to manifest a dream.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

A Dream something vague and you're honoring, like, well, this came out of nowhere, like, everything, right? And now I'm gonna build around it to, like, support. And then something like, well, tell me about, like, naked as we came. Was that, like, how.

[B]

Well, I don't remember how. What came first? You know, maybe eyes wide open or something. Then you just start thinking of. You kind of back up and try to think about what that might. What scenario that might work in. And it's a lot of trial and error. Try stuff out and keep shaping things. But, yeah, a lot of, like, serpentine prison. You know, if you heard that, like, someone said, I'm going to read you this poem. The serpentine prison was, blah, blah, blah. You know, I entered the serpentine prison. You know, you might think, I don't know, it doesn't do it. But if you hear it with music, sometimes the music, like, does half the work. And you're just trying to find some balance because you also. It's tricky because words make your brain take your brain out of the music. You know what I mean? So you're always trying to find this balance between, like, is it too much because. And try to make them do this little handshake, the words and the music.

[A]

We had a little dance party, and we put on Billie Jean, and I was like, these lyrics are like, yeah, what is it? It's like, a mess. But it has, like. People always told me we love. People always told me. You know what I mean? And it has ee. And it has. Ooh. I'm just saying, like, he's explaining that someone says that he's the father of their kid. Yeah, yeah. But, like, who cares? But it's just interesting enough to be a song, but not so interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it could be too interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

He didn't, like.

[B]

He was good at, like, just the suggestive. Like, suggest a story. Like the edges of a story.

[A]

The edges of the bleeding edge of a story. Just enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. To go back to what you were saying. That guitar part does sound. I could see you. You're taking me to the place where you're like, eyes wide open. Right. And then you're going. And that's kind of like. Tell me if this is how it feels. It clicks. Like, that's what it wants to be. Like, there's a. There's a tuning or a true north, and you go, oh, okay.

[B]

There it is. Right? Yeah. You're looking for. Yeah.

[A]

Because it could have been like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Walking backwards. That's stupid. Like, it can feel effortful you know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Snow is falling, all that.

[B]

But the thing is, there's no right or wrong answer, depending on what the next phrase was.

[A]

Right or what you put before. Right.

[B]

That's what the best thing about it is. Math sucks. No, right or wrong.

[A]

Wait, what sucks?

[B]

Said math is. Math sucks. I hate doing math. You know, there's always, like, you either right or wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where music is not. It's the opposite.

[A]

You totally nailed me. I hated that. I couldn't argue that three was the answer. But then in English you could explain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think this play worked. And they would hear you out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You really touched on something there. When we were forced to do math and we're trying to get. For me, talk about being a four. I'm trying to get the same answer as everybody. Yeah. I'd rather fail.

[B]

I'm me.

[A]

Yeah, I'm me. My answer was zebra bit. Oh, how's this?

[B]

How's this squeezing.

[A]

Stop squeezing on my sweet math wrist.

[B]

Squeeze on your own time.

[A]

Still plays. It picked up on yours. I'm loud.

[B]

Squeeze it on your own time.

[A]

Squeeze that shit on your own time. Do you ever talk about your mic picking up stuff? Do you ever use things that you weren't. Didn't even know you were recording or it was an accident?

[B]

Sometimes. Yeah. You try to just keep the thing. Yeah, I. More and more often, I. Looking for the surprise rather than, you know, building something. I mean, I. I like to come in with like a, you know, a script that I worked on, you know, some lyrics and stuff, but then be open to whatever else comes. Comes up with or.

[A]

That happens all the time in acting and all sorts of things. Comedy, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I wonder if that change ever happens on stage because there's something about the adrenaline of the crowd and. Oh, sure, I know you are saying the thing you were afraid to say or maybe you weren't sure about, but they embolden you. Is that an excuse?

[B]

Oh, totally. Yeah. Totally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Every show is a little different, you know, just. And the dynamic, you know, between takes, if the ensemble is cooking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in tune and listening and reacting to. Yeah. Can be very different, you know?

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You get in the pocket.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's fun.

[A]

Have you learned and you're not always,

[B]

like, really aware of what's happened, of what your. The overall achievement is, you know, until you go out and listen again, like. Because everyone comes down, they're like, it was take number two, I swear to God. It Take number two. And then you go back and you listen. It was take number one or was take number four. And we were like, oh, that was when it's so. Again, not math.

[A]

Yeah, not math. This is so not math. Yeah. There's so many music, and this is so many. Yeah, Keep going, please. It sounded like you had a little more.

[B]

I was saying. Yeah. So many musics. So many.

[A]

I'm gonna figure out the right balance of interrupting. I'm gonna figure it out by the end. Doing it, man.

[B]

See, by the end, you're gonna come out, you're gonna to say it was the exact right amount of interrupting all. All along.

[A]

You saw me shaking my head, nodding.

[B]

I wasn't even paying attention.

[A]

Yeah. Good for you. That's what you were talking. But the humility. Now I'm 46, and I'm just going like, it's a beautiful thing that you were just touching on. We don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's beautiful. And so much of commercialism and marketing and, like, is, like I said, trying to chase the way to break through and the box office or the smash record or whatever it might be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We don't know. And there's not a lot of we don't know there. They're trying to figure out. We know.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And what I'm reminded of when. When you say that is, like the humility that's required and. And sort of the courage to be embarrassed and wrong.

[B]

Look. Yeah.

[A]

The way that I related to that was when you're editing a comedy special, I will always go, it was the second show because I was warmed up. And then we go to the second show, and I'm, like, juiced. I'm feeling myself. I'm going too fast. I'm riffing.

[B]

Yeah. Or you're riffing off an idea of what you thought happened the other night.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, I'm pushing it. Right. Pushing this because I think I needed to, but it's not actually what was happening in the.

[A]

No. And then you watched the first one where I was nervous or sweaty or unsure, and that energy actually worked great for that joke.

[B]

There's a. It's a similar thing, like, with music. You get familiar enough where you're still discovering the thing, but you're also. Once you memorize it, then you're just regurgitating. And no one, really. That doesn't taste good to anybody.

[A]

Right. You want it. Except birds. But you want it. Baby birds. You want to be asking, am I right?

[B]

Beautiful baby birds.

[A]

Beautiful baby Birds. Flightless birds. I try to work you into it.

[B]

Swish.

[A]

But you. I'm so with you. The danger is you turn your own idea. It's. A teacher of mine said this. It's like carrying a wet stone from the ocean. It's so beautiful when it's wet. And you walk it back to the beach and it's dried up, and it's like you've just done it too many times. This is why I'm careful. It's gonna sound like bullshit, but it's true. I'm careful to not perform too much. If I perform too much, it just becomes a guy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Doing like a. Like a franchise show. Like, I'm just. I'm just yelling out this stuff. But, like, I want to be asking. And just like you're saying you want to merge with the other musicians in the studio. I'm trying to merge with the crowd and go like, can we be listening?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? And actually find it. And it's so great. And it's often this take that I. I wasn't. When I said it perfectly right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bob Dylan said that all his best ones were the live shows. And he's like, in the records. I think he was sort of sixes on the record.

[B]

Who are you talking about?

[A]

Robert Dylan. He went by the stage name Plums and Peaches. Perhaps you know better as his stage name. It was actually Plums and Peaches.

[B]

Plums? I thought you said Plumsy Peaches.

[A]

Plumsy Peaches. That sounds like something he would have done in the, like, the seventies.

[B]

Spanish Peaches.

[A]

Yeah, it was for the Spanish speaking. When he was wearing the white makeup and Scorsese was following him around, he's like, bring me out as Plumsy Peaches. I'm not Bob Dylan anymore. That's pretty good. That was pretty good, actually. It came out, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See, we can't know.

[B]

Yeah, that's because you had never done it before and you're just experienced for the first time.

[A]

Okay, so try it again, only to prove your point. Plums and Peaches.

[B]

No, no, it's gone.

[A]

Yeah, it's gone.

[B]

That is a dry stone, my friend.

[A]

It dried up by the time we reached the blanket. Okay, so we don't know and we have to be humble. And wouldn't you say that a big part of your job or your life. It doesn't have to be your job, but your process is just, like, tolerating the uncertainty. Because this approach has to lead to nights where you're like, we just Spent all that money on that studio, and I don't even think we got.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Anything.

[B]

I mean, I don't make those kind of records anymore. Yeah, I mean, I definitely have. And. Yeah, you're like, well, time well spent.

[A]

Well, take. Take the studio out. Yeah, I brought a financial.

[B]

But as far as, like, digging into writing. Yeah. You'll spend a whole day and not get anything.

[A]

Are you doing it at home? Is that where you're.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do it wherever because I don't have, like, a set thing that I have to achieve in the day. You know, honestly, if you get a word a day, that's pretty good.

[A]

Pretty good.

[B]

365 words makes a lot of songs. I was also just real quick back to where

[A]

you're leaving the gym and you threw a basketball over your corner and then you just kept walking like nothing happened. A word a day. 365 words a year is a lot of songs. It's great.

[B]

It's a lot of songs.

[A]

Clip it. Too many songs to be helpful. Not viral, but helpful and viral. Sorry. Stupid. Keep going.

[B]

When you guys. You were talking about before, where you try to stay fresh and you put things away not to wear them out. We, you know, at this point, there's a lot of songs we can, like, switch in and out, you know, not have to worry about it too much. Do you guys do that with the bits? Comedy. Yeah. Like you. Yeah.

[A]

Then you bring it back and you're like, have you ever had this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have something. It's your go to. It's your favorite. Stops working. It dries up.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's like. It's like a relationship. Yeah.

[B]

What happened?

[A]

What happened?

[B]

Yeah. Where's.

[A]

You listen to the tape of when you did it earlier if you're disciplined. I don't always. Sometimes I just go, well, and I move on. But if I do go back, I'm like, it's just like a good date. Why was that date so good?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And it goes down to, like, your hormones and all these X factors. And now you are just a guy saying, but I feel that way. Like you're saying your music doesn't make sense or by itself. It kind of looks like bad poetry sometimes. But then you add the music and it's a great song. I can feel that way, like, if sometimes it gets distilled down to just what I'm saying. And what I'm saying actually isn't that interesting. What I was saying was an excuse for this, like, participation that was actually Quite engaging. But I started to think I was actually talking about desks in the 90s, which is a real example. I had a great bit. It was like this killer bit about desks in the 90s.

[B]

That's a hard thing to say.

[A]

Desks in the 90s.

[B]

Say like 10 times. Desks. Desks. Desks. Desks.

[A]

Desks in the 90s. Desks. Next time you do a sound check, will you please. Desks in the 90s. Desks in the 90s. Desk. Desk. It's the worst. Desk in the 90s. Yeah. We had tape on the. Every desk had tape on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What were we taping?

[B]

And gum.

[A]

And gum. And a little candy. Okay. Adding to the bit. But then it dries up. What were we saying? You've had that experience. You. Oh. And then. Then sometimes you bring back 90s desk and it murders again. But, like, what was going on there?

[B]

I know. Yeah. It's also like, we're only talking about it, like our experience of it, our perception of what's happening in that moment. Whereas, like, I've had shows where I was barely hanging. I was like, checked out, just regurgitating and someone would come up to it. That was the best show I've ever seen. You're like, you're a liar. But it's my favorite lie I've heard all day.

[A]

But it was. It wasn't a lie.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I don't think it was a lie. You don't think it was a lie either?

[B]

No. Yeah. I'm kidding.

[A]

I mean, I put my hand up. I couldn't agree more. And Val, my wife, who we've already discussed, one of her main gifts to me is just going. Is reminding me you don't know what their experience was. Sometimes your voice hurts, sometimes you're sweaty. You ate the wrong thing. You didn't eat enough, whatever it is. And just exactly what you were. Usually what you ate, though it could have been what you ate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you careful like that? I'll talk about that for nine years. Like your pre show stuff. You are.

[B]

No, not really. I don't really use my voice the way most people do. You know, mine's sort of conversational.

[A]

Janis Joplin is like, fuck you, you. This guy is leaving a voicemail at 2am you like, she's got a whale and bring it.

[B]

So true.

[A]

But I mean, I'm only going to say it one last time. I love what you do. But, like, I said the same thing to Matt.

[B]

You should just bring that as like just your catch. I love Every day. No, no. You're everyday janice jobs are like, fuck you.

[A]

Meanwhile, Janis Joplin's like, fuck you. Don't explain it. Yeah. Oh, can we sell bumper stickers that say Janis Joplin says fuck you?

[B]

Gotta put that one in your pocket it, bro.

[A]

We could do it, except we're in a post meaning world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It won't mean anything. Yeah, I know. Why'd I bring it up?

[B]

I guess that's a rip.

[A]

We're done. Thank you so much for being here, but I couldn't believe we got both iron and wine. Okay, come on. That's stupid.

[B]

Iron E. Wine.

[A]

Iron E. Wine. Iron E. Win he. Oh, it was back. It came back. It came back. I have to not be expecting it. You have to push me into a Bob Dylan impression or it'll be really, really bad.

[B]

You have to do Bob Dylan doing Janis Joplin.

[A]

Don't you want somebody to love your eyes? That wasn't bad. Janet Japanese say you. Janet Japanese said fuck you. What's his manager? That was pretty good. That would be great. That's. Make that your new ringtone. Fuck you. It's like when I don't fuck you. Fuck you. It gets worse every time I go back to it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You just do it once.

[A]

That's the secret. That's the secret. But you did pick, like, Real Talk. I. I say to other comedians. No, I don't. No, I don't. I say it on this podcast. Never have. But I'm like, pick your Persona wisely. Meaning. I like that I have a Persona that can be angry. He can be silly. He can be like. They'll allow it if I want to be mad. They'll allow it if I want to be corny, like. And I like that. Freedom.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And there's some people that have to be low energy. That's what they do. Or they have to be mean. That's what they do. Or they have to be even worse than having to be mean. I think is having to be really nice. Always and only ever nice. I have some jokes in my act right now. They're straight up mean, and I love it. And nobody goes like, refund. It's. It's a wonderful thing, but no joke. Refund bullshit. Have you met Bob Dylan? I feel like I just did.

[B]

Like, I just did.

[A]

Have you met me?

[B]

No, I don't need to.

[A]

You don't need to. What I'm wondering is, have you ever stopped to give thanks that you did? Your style is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Easier on your.

[B]

On your Voice like just man on the planet.

[A]

Right. Do you feel that?

[B]

Totally. I feel very lucky. I just stumbled into it.

[A]

And what if you were Okril River. Am I saying that right? Ochre Hill.

[B]

Okra River.

[A]

Okurl. How do you say it? Okra. I always said okra, never said it out loud. You know who I'm talking about?

[B]

I do, yeah.

[A]

What if you were the Cold War kids? Taste you out, dude. Yeah, that's. That's hard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I said people. What?

[B]

Say most people, they're screaming.

[A]

Screaming. And.

[B]

Yeah, it's helpful to project. Yeah, yeah, it's. There's a lot of sound people who work with me that much prefer me to do that. But.

[A]

But can we get a little effort? A little effort. J. You. Yes. I love this. But you.

[B]

Yeah, I feel lucky.

[A]

Your warm ups are like, all right, let's go.

[B]

Yeah, sounds good to me. This on. All right, let's go.

[A]

I mean, do you have to warm up your voice very much?

[B]

No.

[A]

You'd almost sound better if you don't really warm.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It depends. I mean, there's some songs where I dig in a bit, but.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I don't do this first with respect.

[A]

Of course you do. Of course you do. Because I said the same thing to Matt from the national. I was like, oh, you picked a really.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nice range. Yeah. Songs. He's going real.

[B]

Yeah. And his voice is a. Is a. Just naturally a bit more boomy, you know, he. He does it and it's like. But it's. If you were there beside him, it's like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's not quiet. Yeah, you're actually quite quiet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I. I probably bring this up. I'm embarrassed. But so many musicians do this and when they do the show, we talk about Underneath the bridge where Kurt Cobain was lying down. Do you know that story in five seconds? Because everybody's heard it. But like, they couldn't get it right. And they took a break and he was just doing it on the guitar laying down and they moved the mics over to him. So it wasn't even in the studio. It was in the lobby of Sound City. They brought it over and they got it. So like, that's kind of like your magic pocket, right?

[B]

There's stories of James Jamerson, the bass player on like, what's going on that record? And like a bunch of Motown. There's stories of him doing that too. Like he would put his. Because he was drunk.

[A]

Oh, he'd lay down.

[B]

Yeah. And just nail it. Oh, my God.

[A]

So good. Oh, my God.

[B]

Tasty. Yeah. It's a funny thing. You never know. Sometimes that's the answer. Just back up and. And be open to. Yeah. Be open to what? You know. You have an idea. Like, you're supposed to do it this way. And you just keep trying and trying. It's not.

[A]

Works.

[B]

Yes, there's not. Really. Again, not math.

[A]

Not math. And again, I'm gonna say shamanic. There's something about you're always saying. I know. I can't stop saying shamanic. God help me. I mean, like, all kidding aside, God help me, I can't stop saying shamanic. When I say shamanic, I'm talking about someone who's interested in getting their personality out of the way for a direct connection to, like, a void, like, space of creativity. So we don't have to say shamanic. It's just faster, but like a drunk guy laying down, playing the bass. We know. You know, having done voiceover. Like, you park in the lot of the place where you're gonna do the audition and. Comfortable. Low heart rate. In your car. It sounds great. In your car. You can do it. You're like, meineke. Meineke, it's a family friend in your. In your car's ass. It's a family. Your fam. Your family's in your car's ass, Meineke. And then you go in, and now your heart rate is up and you're like, meineke. Sorry, can we go? Like, I've been in sound booths and I can hear my heartbeat in my ears. And, like, you don't. Nobody tells you music. And I really want you to weigh in on that. And voiceover and performing. So much of it, to me is manufacturing something comfortable. Like, let me pretend I'm comfortable. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, totally.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

Totally. Well, I never played shows before. I put out records. Like, I never. It wasn't.

[A]

Records were first.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, I signed up with Sub Pop for this first. This record label called Sub Pop, and they're. You should consider going on.

[A]

Oh, no. Sub Pop. Nirvana. Right.

[B]

That's right. I've heard of them. That's right, that's right.

[A]

With one end in the middle. Not the comedy duo. Keep going, keep going, keep going.

[B]

So Sub Pop, they said what they suggest. You should think. Consider about going on tour and learning how to play concerts. Because I'd never done a show.

[A]

Can I. This sounds awesome. Maybe you are the luckiest person in the world.

[B]

I do think I am. I don't think it's a question, really.

[A]

I don't think it is either. I'm getting. I'm getting the sense because touring is what's a drag. Live performing. I'm saying it's also great, but I'm sure it's also a drag if you're. It can be.

[B]

Well, it's work.

[A]

Yes, it's work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

B.B. king. They pay me to travel, but, like, the idea writing is the same. Like, I'm writing something right now. Coffee, kitchen table just kind of hanging when it's working.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're also very similar. Noodling idea. Yeah. Voice right. Feeling right. Write it down, then lay it down. We'll record it.

[B]

Get my nails done.

[A]

Get your nails done. But you won't stop moving them. Make it. Make it a challenge.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Come on, lady.

[B]

See what you got.

[A]

And. And then we. But that, to me, sounds like an artist's dream. Yeah. It's just kind of like being in a flowy. Kind of. Not a studio time, not a shows at 8, but like. Like I got. And that comes through in the music. So you're saying you enjoy. I mean, like, that's not lost on you?

[B]

No, no, it's. It's incredible. I mean, I feel. Yeah. Very lucky where I just sort of plopped into this

[A]

position. Sweet.

[B]

Yeah. Never had. Never imagined I would be.

[A]

You're in the center of a cake, basically. Like, you're in the warmest center everyone wants. Where everyone wants to be. I mean, if you're hungry for cake

[B]

and the challenge is you have to eat your way out.

[A]

Gotta eat your way out. Yeah, but you don't even have to. You can just eat enough to make a little den and be like, I'm good in this cake.

[B]

You could eat yourself a little phone nook or a set of stairs to nowhere.

[A]

Picture Yoda's house. You're telling me he didn't eat his way out of the middle of the cake.

[B]

You could nibble yourself a little fireplace.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, you Janis Joplin. Janice Joplin says no. Wait, how would he say it? You. Janis Joplin says she does stupid, but okay.

[B]

Says she, says she.

[A]

Janis Joplin. She says she. Hulk was a bottom. He was.

[B]

What are the rules? What are the Yoda rules? Like switching words.

[A]

Yeah. You have to say the. The subject verb at the end.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fuck yourself. I say like that. Yeah, but you wouldn't say I.

[B]

Say yourself says I, says I, says

[A]

I. I think he says I say.

[B]

That's more like a pirate says I. Pirates.

[A]

Yoda pirate. That's a good band name. Yoda pirate. Walk the blank. You shall ask about my hook. You will not. He doesn't like telling the story. It's actually quite embarrassing.

[B]

It is to me.

[A]

That's a funny thing. The pir who doesn't want to tell you how he lost his peg leg or he lost his leg that became peg. But then he lost his peg leg. That's even worse.

[B]

In the future. He is

[A]

in the future. He is

[B]

always looking. What's his speech to? Wait, you know the thing he says to Luke?

[A]

Oh, do or do not. Yeah, do or do not. There is no try. Okay, all proverbs aside, there is a try. I'm about to try right now. Now, like, I'm glad you have, like, wisdom, but I'm going to try to lift this thing out.

[B]

Luke's like, I got to stop you right there.

[A]

You remember when I couldn't do it? That was called a try. You were there for the try. There is no try. Do or do not. No plan B. You're going to be an indie musician. You are. Wait, going back to your sweet cake life.

[B]

You recorded before you got in the cake.

[A]

Before you were in the cake. The way you got in the cake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was somebody gave you a four track Tascam.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it was. I wonder if we had the same one. It changed my life.

[B]

Very likely. Yeah.

[A]

It's the best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I.

[B]

You can still get them. There are people out there, they come back refurbishing them.

[A]

Big comeback, I imagine. No small comeback.

[B]

Size is relative.

[A]

Hulk. It's not Hulk feels. Size is very real. Hulk Bottom. Hulk Bottom. Hulk Bottom Productions. Can we. Joe, come on. AI is a thing. Can you make a production card at the end of this episode that says Hulk Bottom production.

[B]

She's canceling you right now.

[A]

Ooh, Katie. Katie doesn't mind Hulk Bottom. I feel like it's progressive.

[B]

Total horseshoe theory.

[A]

It's so offensive. It's progressive. You got this four track. You were, yeah. Teaching film.

[B]

I was, yeah.

[A]

And some. And. But noodling with song. It sounds so condescending. I just mean, like.

[B]

No, it's very accurate noodling.

[A]

Yeah, noodling with songs.

[B]

Very accurate.

[A]

And somebody was like her. How did they come to give you that four track?

[B]

Well, you mentioned Band of Horse. Ben and I grew up together. I remember this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. And. And he was in Seattle, had a band and they were talking to sub pop about working together. And he said, oh, here, by the way, you know, as they Were kicking them out. Thanks a lot. As they were kicking them out, he said, here's my buddy Sam's music. You should give a listen.

[A]

Because he had a four track of it.

[B]

Yeah, we were. Yeah, I'm sorry. We. In the 90s, we had lived together for a second, and we were. You know, we would come home from work and listen to music, and that was kind of just our bond, you know, just chilling and turning each other onto music. And so when he was making. Working with the band, he would send me this stuff because I wanted to hear what he was up to. And I would send him stuff I was doing. Yeah. And we would send each other, you know, that. Was he the one who first played me, like, the Shins record? You know, I never heard that stuff, you know, and just different bands.

[A]

You had your Natalie Portman moment.

[B]

Oh, I was like, my life was never the same.

[A]

Soft helmet. Yeah.

[B]

So I still understand my life. Life before that moment. Yeah. And the cake that it's been ever since that moment.

[A]

Okay. But there's a lot happening here. You have a professional musician in Band of Horses. Forgive me. What's his name?

[B]

Ben.

[A]

Ben.

[B]

Ben of Horses.

[A]

Ben of Horses. Thank you for making that joke. So I didn't have to, because I was going, no, that isn't tolerated here. Your joke was valid and I loved it. There's no knee slapping, and God help you if you dump bump. I will. I'll. Well, I'll just big you up for 20 minutes because that joke was great. Ben of Horses.

[B]

Your joke is valid.

[A]

Your joke is valid, and your take is valid. Anybody trying to make the world here a better place with jokes. I had somebody do a knee slap recently, and I was like, you're dead in my mind. Out. Out. Like Ben from Sub Pop. Get the out of here. Janice Joblin says, you. I can't handle it. But then Val Ester. Remind me. People don't know that that's my number one thing that I can't stand anybody. Make the world a little funnier. God love him anyway, including Bed of Horses. But he's a. He's a professional musician. He's. He's writing real songs. So. Yeah, there's a little contradiction here. You're noodling, but you're confident enough to share your music with a real musician.

[B]

Well, he's my buddy.

[A]

Yeah, but he's your buddy. But you must have believed that it was good. I mean, you must have been like, this isn't garbage. You like music, you listen to your own music. You. This Sounds okay. I'm gonna share it.

[B]

Yeah. There were songs. I mean, I wasn't sharing with everybody, but I'd share it with him.

[A]

But he's a professional musician, quote, unquote. Okay.

[B]

We're.

[A]

Let's say, where we become dear friends after this. We become dear friends. You start doing some open mics.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And you send it to me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You must think there's some good stuff in there. You believed in yourself.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Well, no. I mean, I liked it. Yeah. For sure. But we were also kids, you know, it's like early. Early 20s, you know, you didn't know. We didn't really think about. You know, we. We didn't really know how to. Like, we didn't even know. We didn't know. I mean, we didn't know anything about the music industry or about sharing things. We were just friends. And so we would send each other stuff. I mean, we send each other mixtapes and, you know, just music and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so.

[A]

But why.

[B]

It wasn't, like, the professionalism wasn't really even anything about it. We don't even know what that meant.

[A]

I understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. I actually was just talking to a friend of mine. Back before, comedy meant, like, job.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

We'd be riffing. I just said this to Matt. I was like. I used to say, can I have that? Or people would say to me, can I have that? So much more. Because we were just always around, and it was no big deal. Like, you'd both riff Bottom Hulk, and you'd say, can I do that? That? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah. Or I'd say, can I do that? Yeah.

[B]

You didn't think.

[A]

It was just. Nobody was going, well. We got to drop a contract. If you make Bottom Hulk the series, like, I need a producer credit. Like, that's. That's what it's become, which is sad. But in those 20s, those crackling 20s.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I love that. So why did someone give you the recorder? Did you play it from them? You stole it?

[B]

No, dude, I don't know.

[A]

I liked it.

[B]

I was. I was working at this place.

[A]

I broke into their home. It was one of the things in the sack. It was a tv, a ukulele out of the.

[B]

Right under the window.

[A]

It was easy. They put all these trinkets on the sill to make it hard for me to get in, but I saw the task.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So you took. So they gave. Did you play them a song or.

[B]

No, it was. It was like, the first one I borrowed Was part of the film school I went to. And then. And then I borrowed one from the film school that I worked at.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So nobody was like, hey, you got it. Lay it down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the bio, I was like, I'm

[B]

gonna go make a record. They're like, yeah, you do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That kind of thing.

[A]

Amazing. And then when you started working with it and I'm projecting onto you, but I remember, just like, do it. It's so tactile.

[B]

Like, oh, yeah.

[A]

Pressure you have to put on. I was like, rolling over zeros.

[B]

Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. No, I loved. I loved it. How tactical. You have to think your way out of problems and stuff. It's really fun.

[A]

And the possibilities. You mix it down to one, and now you have.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Eight tracks or whatever. It was so fun.

[B]

Right? You had to think about, you know, you hear these, like, stories how the Beatles made their record. You have to, like, mix it all down to one track so you can use the other three for, like, a something else.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's ridiculous.

[A]

And you're harmonizing with yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're adding track. And then it sounds wrong or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's all you. It's very empowering. It's a very empowering thing. More than GarageBand. You open it up and you're like, what the fuck is this?

[B]

You can do anything.

[A]

Yeah, but it's paralyzing. I don't know what I'm looking at.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then with this, it. I don't know, it just felt more like clay than a piece of technology.

[B]

Totally. Yeah.

[A]

You agree with that?

[B]

Oh, totally. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Analog. Yeah. Just that approach is. Is more like that. I. For me, it was. I was. Came from a fine arts background, like, went to art school and these things I thought I was gonna do, like painting and things like that. And so my approach to just creative. My creative life was just, you know, developing something, making some marks, thinking about it, developing, you know, changing it, shining it until it was ready to. To show. And so. And I, you know, around guitars and stuff and had friends that played and. But never really thought of it as something to pursue until it became making something. You know, developing something. It became a recording that you could treat like a painting. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Instead of just think that you just do in front of your friends and then it's over.

[A]

Well, I wasn't even kidding when I thought to ask you this. Like, how do you get over white guys gonna play Wonderwall right now? You know that the groan of the Acoustic coming out, the inner groan. Usually people were pretty happy in college if you took it out and you're gonna play Satellite, but you have to. Your answer is, if you're a sensitive person like me and you're hyper conscious that people are gonna think it's dumb that you're gonna play Brown Eyed Girl right now. Being alone in the cave with the thing and making it like a painting sort of solves that issue. Am I hearing you right? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I never. Never played concert. I just made recordings.

[A]

So cool. And then Ben of Horses gives them the tape. They picked one of the songs to release in a. Like a.

[B]

They did like a.

[A]

Like a mailer.

[B]

Yeah, they have like a. They call it the singles club. Yeah. Yeah. Where they did it, they'd been doing forever. It's like a seven inch record where they. I can't remember how many.

[A]

I'd love to meet 7 inch singles. I'll tell you that. Right. As a. As a bottom hulk. I would love to meet some 7 inch singles. Can we please.

[B]

The one eyed man in the land of the blind.

[A]

I want to be on the 7 inch single mailer. Okay. Sorry they put you on the 7 inch singles.

[B]

Yeah. And I hadn't thought of it that way, but I had to say, you have to imagine some pop or, you know, especially then there's a bunch of crusty old punk rockers that, you know, everything was inappropriate that came out of their mouth. And so I sent them this song called Naked as we came. And they were like, you sure you want to call it that? I was like, come on, bro.

[A]

I'm so with you. I'm so with you. I. Somebody. I said I was giving my daughter a ride. I was in Miami.

[B]

Yeah, you were.

[A]

I said. That's what it was. I said I was giving my daughter a ride. And this table of dudes laughed, and I was like, come on. How dare you? I'll defend anyone's right to make any joke. But, like, it wasn't even that. It was like over the. Over the line. It was just like. I'm just trying. I was.

[B]

Your jokes are not safe here. This is not a safe space.

[A]

I'll take bed of horses. But not back. But like, naked as we came. At some point, somebody needs to go. Yeah, that's what we're calling it. I know it sounds to you. Come on. Are you? Yeah. In the comic strip Bloom County.

[B]

So we never spoke ever again.

[A]

I hope not.

[B]

Bloom County.

[A]

Remember Bloom County?

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

Opus had a book called Naked K My. That was the name of his biography. So you gave them a four track recording of Naked as we came.

[B]

Say that in Yoda's voice.

[A]

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

[B]

Swish.

[A]

Wait a minute.

[B]

No net.

[A]

That was amazing. No net. I didn't even hear it.

[B]

You just put it on the table Right there.

[A]

It was right there.

[B]

Put it right there.

[A]

I just put a cupcake. Boom. And a shout out to our sponsor. Yep, Pete and Valad. Really throwing her in here. Hey. This episode is brought to us by Article, which Val ordered for us and loved it so much. I was like, you have to do the ad with us. We love when something shows up at your house and you immediately go, this is legit. And that is how we feel about our amazing article furniture. Val, what did we get? We got two gorgeous, gorgeous lounge chairs tossed. The old rickety broken moldy wooden ones. Gone. Gone. These ones you can wipe clean. They don't get at they. They. They look amazing.

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They look amazing.

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They up leveled the house. It's like John Wick's house. That's right. We live in John Wick's house. That's right. We also got a new rug that I'm obsessed with like barefoot skating on barefoot skater. It's so solid, well made, no weird assembly nightmare. It's that clean, modern style that works with everything. We love. That article doesn't do a million things. They just curate really beautiful, high quality pieces that are built to last. So whatever your vibe is mid century cozy, coastal or that Scandinavian minimal thing, you can find it at Article shipping was fast, smooth and if you want, they'll even handle assembly. They got a 30 day satisfaction guarantee which we did not need because we were 30 seconds guaranteed. We're in. That's right. Article.

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Our satisfaction was guaranteed.

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It was there. I liked it. So you can try, try it out and make sure you like it. If you, if you need that 30 day satisfaction, we did not Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. More. To claim, visit article.com weird and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com weird for 50 bucks off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more. Hey everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin. You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[B]

And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back

[A]

this is not canned talking points.

[B]

It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together. We take your top voted questions in real time, and we talk about the

[A]

most impactful actions we can take.

[B]

Right now.

[A]

Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan Is about how we get into the game.

[B]

What's the plan?

[A]

Available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize and win. That's the plan. That was amazing. Where are we? Naked Came I. Oh, did they have you re record it or was it the four track recording of Naked As We Came?

[B]

Oh, no, that was a little later. That was what I did in a studio.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They were.

[A]

But the first one that they released,

[B]

especially when I said, I think this is one we should release and you should say it to everyone, write it in emails, and send out to everyone like, you sure you want to call it this?

[A]

It's getting marked as spam a lot. Naked as We Came. New release. Naked as We Came. Game spreading everywhere. That went to my spam. Sam's latest huge release on 7 inch. His 7 inch is about to release. Naked as We Came. Are you ready? Streaming now. Wouldn't have been that. Wouldn't have been that. But the first one that they released was the four track. Like, they didn't. You didn't redo.

[B]

Yeah, just over there. House. Yeah.

[A]

And did that. This seems like a classic story. Your musician friend gives your tape.

[B]

I know.

[A]

To these guys. They release the thing and then Sub Pop reached out to you.

[B]

All cake after that.

[A]

All cake.

[B]

Yeah, get in. I feel like, okay, get in there.

[A]

Like, people are going to be like, okay, boomer to us. Like, you and I are two guys that were just like, just get out there. Just get out there. You know, do your stuff. Get out there.

[B]

I know a lot of times people ask me for advice.

[A]

I'm like, start.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not the person to offer advice.

[A]

Yeah. And then what was the transition like to live? I mean, did you like it?

[B]

No, it was horrifying. I didn't like it at all because I was accustomed to the sound. I didn't even like going in the studio. I mean, I wanted to and I wanted to learn. So time I did the second record, I wanted to go into a studio, but it's really hard to change because I felt like everything I was doing was so dependent on the sound that I was getting just a reaction, you know, it wasn't Like, I'm gonna do this thing and I'm gonna put this mic and it's gonna sound like this. I was like, ding, ding, ding. And you would hear what you were getting, and then you would change.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you would. It was all reactionary. I still feel that way. Honestly, it's really hard.

[A]

But when you're in the studio, are you not plugged into.

[B]

I just gotten used to it.

[A]

I just.

[B]

It was a new sound. It was like, you know, you're. You don't remember the first time you heard your voice recorded? And you're like, who's that? Yeah, it's that over and over again. Like in different.

[A]

In the studio.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because am I. Am I hearing you right? That in a studio you don't have headphones on and you're just kind of playing and they're listening to you.

[B]

Oh, no, I mean that. You can do it that way. Yeah, that way before.

[A]

But then what's the difference if you're doing it on a four track or doing it in a studio?

[B]

It's just the mic you're using and just the fidelity. Or the room. Yeah. The ambience. And it's different in quotes. It's better. Yeah, it's different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's definitely a higher fidelity. And, you know, it's like. That was the original.

[A]

Right, but like that. Like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of a tape is, like, nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You know, Elliot Smith's first record. You can hear him pressing record.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it adds to the Right. Right. Like, they could have taken that out, but it adds to it. And they all have the sh. And like, another track fades in and you hear a. You hear another. But that gives it a certain analog quality. And now, if I'm hearing you right, you're in, like, a pin drop. Like, we can. Yeah, we can isolate that if you want. You're like. It was freaking you out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And.

[B]

And you just have to react and. And adapt and adjust. I mean, I still feel that way almost every time you go into a different concert hall. I mean, that's what soundcheck is. Is for, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then when the people fill up

[A]

the room, it's different.

[B]

It's different again. It's just. You're constantly.

[A]

That's why they're starting to sell tickets to the Sound check. It's awful. They are so greedy. You have to sell out Sound Check. It's one song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Same price.

[B]

I've seen it. Yeah.

[A]

Brutal. Because we need it to sound the same. But then. So your first show Were you a brick? Sorry if you get asked this a lot, but I am genuinely curious.

[B]

Yeah, I was petrified.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where was it you feel we. Oddly enough, I got asked to open up a tour. A three act tour with Isaac Brock's not Modest Mouse, but his other ugly Casanova.

[A]

He was Confident Cat. His other project, Peaches and what was it? Plums and Peach. Plumsy Peaches. Plumsy Peaches opens for Confident Cat. Modest Mouses alternate. It said Garth Brooks. What was his Garth Brooks and what was his Persona? Chris. Chris Gaines. Chris Gaines. Confident Cat. Okay, so that's awful, by the way. Thank you for laughing.

[B]

Consummate Cat.

[A]

Consummate Cat is better than Modest. Modest Mouse. Opposite is actually Consummate Cat. So you were going to open and this is a big tour. Is. Am I like. It wasn't.

[B]

I wonder why where that came from. I don't know the origination of that. Maybe it's a scaredy cat or something.

[A]

Modest Mouse. Yeah. Mothmount. You mean Modest Mouse Mouse. You're talking the origins of Modest Mouse. Yeah.

[B]

I wonder what it was.

[A]

Have you ever Modest Mouse?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I'd like to know.

[B]

I think it was the original alliteration, perhaps.

[A]

Could be. It's often very disappointing, you know, like Counting Crows. Oh, we were just counting some crows. It's like. That's why. Bro, I'd like to put this by you. Every biopic is stupid because writing music is stupid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not even trying. Writing comedy is stupid. Nothing is cool in the making of it. I don't care who it was. And they try to make. There's only one choice. Which is the Amadeus choice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is what they did in Amadeus. Amadeus. They did it in Don't Think Twice. No, what the. The Bob Dylan movie they just did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What is it called? A Complete unknown. Right. Don't Think Twice as Mike Big is Wonderful movie. A complete unknown. They did the Amadeus thing, which is like, whoops, these all fell out of my ass. Done. Oh, that's my favorite. That's my favorite too.

[B]

All the arts movies, especially like the ones about painters. There's always. There's always the. The montage of them sweating and just going straight. Smoking cigarettes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thing. Furiously thing. And then. Then they just. A painting.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Pollock.

[A]

Are we thinking of Pollock right now? I mean one. They're just like, whoops. It was amazing. Because making art is stupid.

[B]

Boring.

[A]

It's stupid. That's. Every biopic sucks. I don't want to see it. Freddie Mercury Being like, your biopic is not safe here. That's dumb. It's dumb. And Picasso being like, maybe blue, like he's eating a blueberry and he's like. And we push in. That's fucking stupid. We don't need to see the process. The thing is the thing.

[B]

You have to embrace the idea that all movies are a dream, though.

[A]

Yeah, okay. You're right.

[B]

That's why even ones that are trying to be real are a dream.

[A]

I agree with you. And that's why I like the dream that everyone wants to see, but a complete unknown. Let's go full dream and be like. Just like, whoops. And it ain't no use, is it? I want to hear the real one. Was like, don't even worry about sitting around and thinking about why we broke up. My Lord. Why did I say my Lord? Ifin. Ifin you don't know by now. I wanna see Bob Dylan's like, cousin Be like, ifin that's the real. Hey, Bob, iffin sucks. Ifin you don't rewrite that lyric. It just cuts to him at the folk festival getting a standing ovation. Yeah. That's what art is.

[B]

That's the real.

[A]

And Mozart wasn't that way either. I, I, I watched Amadeus. I love Amadeus. And I looked it up and it was like, that is not historically accurate. I bet you do a good Amadeus.

[B]

What was the, the actor's name? Yeah,

[A]

I defecated in my trousers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not true. The whole, like, I just hear them in my head. But that's the only story we want to hear because we want to be off the hook.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I want to be like, I'd write a symphony, but I don't have that gift. Well, neither did he.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I mean, he did, but he didn't. But so do you get more of it?

[B]

It's an exaggeration, but, I mean, you know, but the fact that he was so much more than the rest of us, for sure. But at the end of the day, that's the thing. It's a dream. You have to just see them as a dream. It's like everything is exaggerated. Time slips around.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, in this way that a dream does. You're like, oh, now we're in the kitchen.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

What?

[A]

You're absolutely right. In that lens. We can forgive all things. Yeah. It's completely true. I'm just riffing. I talk out the other side of my face and say, you're absolutely right.

[B]

What? I don't like, I Mean, I'm fine with the montage. It's just. It's so such a consistent cliche. It's like, geez, okay. Yeah, here we go.

[A]

I just. I think it's the same thing with, like, gurus and teachers. It's like, we want them all to be perfect. We want Jesus to be perfect. You know what I mean? Like, Christ who? Of Nazareth. And you're like, oh, Jesus, Nazareth, Jesus. Back then you had to say who you were from.

[B]

I read a book recently called the Testament of Mary lately. It was. It was interesting. It was like a. Like a historical fiction, but just sort of like, taking Mary's idea.

[A]

Okay. Older book or newer?

[B]

No, pretty new. New. Pretty new.

[A]

Pretty new.

[B]

Anyway, what.

[A]

What did you take away from it?

[B]

Mary was pissed.

[A]

Pissed.

[B]

Also afraid.

[A]

Yeah. Did they go with.

[B]

It was a novella, so I didn't

[A]

get a whole lot of it by the Lord kind of flavor. Or was it like.

[B]

Oh, they. She basically said that that was all. You know, she was also, like. It was more about her describing the disciples as shifty and some of them as, like, you know,

[A]

zealots. Oh.

[B]

Or just seeking power and, like, creating a myth to.

[A]

But that is happening for their purposes, you know, I'm not throwing shade on the disciples.

[B]

I mean, we're all buddies.

[A]

Lord knows I'm tight with all 12. Even Judas. We've gotten past it.

[B]

But everyone has their pros and cons. You know, we're all human.

[A]

The one that's fun that I probably say a lot is the. That the gospel writers bend over backwards. And it's actually kind of funny to describe why Jesus is going to John the Baptist. Yeah. Because Jesus was a student of John the Baptist. He was, like, following him around. He was his teacher, so he was following. He was in this group. Some might call it a cult. He's in this group in the desert with this very eclectic leader.

[B]

I think it was just something to do there.

[A]

Where are you going? There was no Internet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was no Crest toothpaste. There was nothing to do. Everybody smelled horrible.

[B]

Boring.

[A]

Go in the desert. Learn about your God nature. But, like, the gospel writers are like, give a. Give it a look. It's funny. They'll be like. And Jesus, even though he didn't need it, he accepted baptism from John the Baptist even though it was beneath him. Like, they go out of their way to be like. It's just exactly like, extracted all this. And Michael Jordan was pretty good. Even though the coach had to show him how to switch his hands, he didn't need it. Like, if you were going to deify him, even he could have just risen

[B]

up, flew over to the basket and

[A]

like that slam dunk contest, he is risen. I mean, it's right there. We love people that are flying. We do, yeah. That's really interesting. We. We usually. We kind of found our way here. We're towards. I don't know, we can end whenever we want.

[B]

But, like.

[A]

Like, you were raised fundy Pretty.

[B]

Yeah. Pretty religious.

[A]

Yeah, Pretty religious, yeah.

[B]

Religious.

[A]

Don't be religious. And how. What. What did that do for you? Show me where religion touched you. Show me on your psyche where religion touched you.

[B]

I mean, yeah, it was, you know, it was where I grew up. It was in the water. And so the stories are very important to me because they were laid down Jezebel very early.

[A]

But cultural literacy, I feel the same way.

[B]

And also. Yeah.

[A]

Just good stories.

[B]

Yeah. And just. I mean, I. I literally had a realization that, you know, when I started having children, like, are they gonna know, you know, these moral lessons that I hadn't examined, you know, you know, story lessons, you know, because that's how you learn.

[A]

Learn. Yeah.

[B]

Stories. He's like, you know, I got a little worried not thinking out. Yeah, of course they're gonna experience in their life and you can talk to them about things.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But, you know, I just Knowing that that's how I learned it and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not thinking about what else to do. And before you had kids, you know, just, oh, they're here now. I gotta figure out this plan.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. I had a. I had a. Had a moment where I was like, oh, man. You don't really think about what role it played in your life before you start. Yeah. In a positive way. Yeah. Because at the time I was really angry. I felt I was given this way of thinking and then went to college and read apocryphal texts and was like, oh, okay, so the Bible is a book that people wrote. Not actually, you know, just thinking about it yourself. And I think I was angry for a while, just feeling duped. Not that like the teacher, the teachings weren't important or I, you know, I was like, this is all bullshit. Because, I mean, you know, it's all good to hear. It's just the specifics and the details are a little tricky sometimes, but you

[A]

have to get over that feeling.

[B]

Yeah, you do. And so I. Yeah. As my kids are coming along and just sort of. Yeah. Learning my relationship with it. And I was angry at the time, and it was a good. It was one of those Moments where like, oh, wait, let's just step back and just appreciate it for what's good about it and figure out, you know, what role it's going to play in your life now.

[A]

What was something that was good about it? And if you. If you don't have it on your. On the tip of your brain right now, that's fine. But I'm curious. I go right to, like, oh, they're asking Abraham to. To murder Isaac. And I'm like, oh, I'm glad Leela won't know that story, per se. Oh, you like that story? Oh, the thing.

[B]

Oh, you say the things that you won't.

[A]

I. I go right to kind of

[B]

saying, because it meant that I could kill my children when they are.

[A]

This is my Miami moment all over again. Like, whoa, take it easy. No, I just mean, like, there. There's, you know, there's just stuff in there. A lot of it made me, like, a little paranoid. Like. Like, even Jesus is purported to have said, if you have lust for a woman, you've committed adultery with her. Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, dude, I remember just to interrupt you.

[A]

This is your episode. I know it doesn't sound like it.

[B]

I grew up in this, you know, where you were told about the rapture, like, over and over again as a reason to do what you're supposed to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But I knew that I wasn't going. I mean, I wanted to go, but I knew that I was. You know, what I did.

[A]

You're going to get Cameron.

[B]

And so every time. Every time, you know, I would call out for my mom and she would be somewhere and couldn't hear me, and I wouldn't. I was like, well, I guess I'm alone.

[A]

I mean, literally, that Mom. Mom. Rapture.

[B]

So I had a plan, like, you

[A]

know, just immediately start masturbating and just like, yeah, it's all cake. From now on, it's all cake for me. Sammy's cake coming up roses.

[B]

It's a different perspective, you know, and you just stuff they didn't think about, you know, what you might accidentally put in a kid's brain.

[A]

Of course, I. Up until I'd say probably 15 years ago, 10 years ago, every time there was an end of the world Bible

[B]

group, I would worry about it. Yeah.

[A]

Like, 10 years. That's 36 years old. I'd still be kind of like, totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A little worried about it. And even though we're laughing about it, it. That is a heavy burden to put on.

[B]

A kid can laugh about it now.

[A]

We can laugh now, but that. That is in your wiring. So that's sort of nasty. But the question is, like, when it comes to something positive that you do want to tell your kids or that you have told your kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What, what would you say?

[B]

Oh, mostly, like, the general thing. I mean, it's amazing how many people don't, you know, love your. Your neighbor as yourself or, you know, you know what I mean? Like, these kinds. It's amazing how many people don't take that to heart or, you know, some of the most basic, even like, more eastern edges of the philosophy.

[A]

I mean, I was gonna say, what you do for them, you've done unto me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, when I was a kid, I took that to mean, that's Jesus. And now I take it as like, that's all of us. Yeah, like, what I do to you, I do to me.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Treat people the way that you want. Want to be treated. Like, because we are all feeling the same things. We're all. Yes, those things are important.

[A]

But,

[B]

yeah, there's also. I'm happy that they don't walk around with, like, the kind of baggage that I was talking about before.

[A]

Yeah. It's funny. We had Father Greg Boyle on this pod and he talked about the mystical lens, which I really appreciated that he named, which is the lens you look at the text with and go like, well, maybe just not that one. Which.

[B]

Which.

[A]

Growing up, I was like, that was the biggest sacrilege. You couldn't. You took all of it. You took all of it. Even if it, like, even if you didn't know what it meant, you would just take the mainstream interpretation of it. Even if that was completely wrong. I really appreciated somebody who's a priest literally saying like, no, we're to do this. Like, that's what we're doing anyway. Let's just name it.

[B]

It's all a slippery slope. I mean, whether you decide to be willy nilly with your interpretation, then it's like, where does it end?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or if you decide to be real literal with your interpretation, where does it end? Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Right. And Father Greg would say, you. The part of you that's looking, you have a. You have a sense. There's an intuition. And I think that's true. I think there's like a. I joke that, like, you know, the Internet will sometimes say, draw Shrek without looking it up. And you draw it and you don't know why it's wrong. You look at it and you're like, that's wrong. But you can't like, draw Snoopy. Like, I can't do it, but when I see Snoopy, I know it. That's how I look. I'm not saying I can lead the world with my interpretation, but I have my own inner what Snoopy looks like. And when it says, like, women need to shut up in church, I'm like, that doesn't look like Snoopy tonight. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think. I think what we are, deep down, beyond our minds, is something. There's a wisdom to that. There's an intelligence to that, and we recognize it. We recognize it in. In qualities like freedom, like being free. I don't mean like a country, just being free. Like you in your house. We go like, that's right on that. That feels like me. I feel more like myself when I. I'm free.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

So that. That's a clue to my origin. What I am is a free, spacious place. Yeah. It's an accepting place. It's. We could call that a loving place. I feel when I'm in my loving, compassion, understanding. If I'm feeling patient, if I'm feeling a little bit quieter, a little bit more alert. What I am is alert. What I am is fresh. What I am is present. And we can tell when we're aligned with those. I don't even want to call them virtues, I would say those aspects of what we are. And we can tell when we're pinched and we're closed and we're afraid. And that feels. You correct me if I'm wrong, but those things feel added to our nature. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They feel like appearance just wrong. Well, in the way that you add a storm cloud to a sky, it feels added. Like, when I'm really feeling like a dick, I don't go like. Like, this is the real me. I might worry it's the real me, but it does feel. A little inspection reveals that. Oh, no, that's something that's appearing inside of my spacious loving. Does that sound right?

[B]

Totally. Yeah. I feel like. Yeah, that's a good way to. I like that word lens. Lens. It's a popular word these days. Is it? Yeah, it goes around.

[A]

People do, like.

[B]

Like different political lenses and things. What you. Yeah, exactly. But religion in particular. Yeah, they. People come at it from so many different directions, you know, just. I mean, looking for a light in the fog.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and that could be from a place of fear or wanting to understand or a way to control other people. You know, it's just.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And that's Why? I think it's important to put it up against not just your mind's intuition, but like, for lack of a better word, your heart's intuition. Like they're. And. And if you're not in your heart's intuition, if you're tense, if your shoulders are up. I have this joke. I say it all the time. I'm like everybody. To say Enya again. Everybody at their base is Enya. You know what I'm saying? Nobody sounds like death metal when you relax them down in their deep sleep. In your deep sleep.

[B]

You haven't met everybody.

[A]

I'm talking about deep sleep, not dream sleep.

[B]

To say Inya again.

[A]

Enya.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Go ahead. Oh, to say Enya again.

[B]

Enya.

[A]

Enya. Sounds like a dip.

[B]

It's a. To say Enya again comes at a great sacrifice. Wait, what? We must hope that to say Inya again comes at a sacrifice you are not really willing to pay of. Mad Libs.

[A]

I also thought you were doing Pulp Fiction. Say Enya again. Enya. Does he look like a.

[B]

Do I look like Enya to you?

[A]

Hamburgers. Well, where are you at now? Any brief taste of your feeling? I mean, you have children. Yeah. That really kind of brings, or did for me, into the foreground.

[B]

It lends perspective.

[A]

It. Yes. And it makes you wonder, like, what is going on here and what are we doing? Do you have a. I read that you're agnostic, which is why.

[B]

Did you read that?

[A]

Not on Wikipedia.org I had to donate $30, but. Tell me.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm. I don't go to church and stuff. Stuff. And I don't. I. I have an issue with the. With organized religion. I think it's really important for the culture, like society, civilization.

[A]

Like the post office. Exactly. I'm not even joking.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. It's kind of like a cornerstone of a society.

[B]

And I feel like the way. I mean, not to get on a. On a soapbox or anything, but I feel like the way that the decline of religion has added to a lot of. Just the people trying to apply it to politics.

[A]

And a lot of politics is kind of the new church.

[B]

Yeah. It is like in not a great way and it's not a great way. And politics are not designed to absorb that.

[A]

That's exactly right. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. And so it's very divisive the way that religious wars were. Division.

[A]

Yeah. No, you're absolutely right.

[B]

But. And so I think religions are important and. And I think it. It's an overall good. You know, obviously there's Some problematic stuff or people can use it for problematic things, but I just have a hard time. I'm not a. I'm not a. I don't belong to groups. I'm not a group person.

[A]

Enneagram for. No, it's true. Me neither. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's the reason I'm a band with one permanent member.

[A]

The rest of y' all roll. Get the out of here. The fancy way. I love that you. Yes. Handed my tuning Riff. Riff. Love that. But you have. I'm going to put. Put this to you. It sounds like you have an appreciation for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A mystery or for life.

[B]

Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, I feel like my. Yeah. I don't meditate because I write. You know, it's like the same thing for me, for sure.

[A]

I just did a retreat where the whole thing was writing as a spiritual practice, which. And I didn't know what that meant. My friend Mirabai Star led it and it was like. It was like, just like getting in that flow and things are coming out and people are connecting and crying and. But opening up and really tasting that sort of naked potential that you are.

[B]

Creativity is very close to centering and.

[A]

Yes. And. And the source. Yeah. Like, whatever creation is, obviously, is very creative. I think so. Yeah. I dig that. I dig that.

[B]

And I mean, again, I don't have a thing against religion. I think it's, you know, very great.

[A]

Whatever. Yeah.

[B]

Mask it has on.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

I just. It's not for me.

[A]

Well, it's funny because, like, technology also can't absorb religion. And it's true.

[B]

Yeah. It's like trying to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Put it into a.

[A]

And medic.

[B]

Screwdriver set.

[A]

It's true medicine, too. Ramdas used to say, like, you go to a hospital, it's like hospitals are like churches and the doctors are the priests. And then there's like, the surgeon generals are the high priests. And. Because they're going to preserve your life and we are sort of like, I don't have a fix for this. I do think I heard somebody. I don't know where I can say I'm not worried about saying this. That, like, certain branches of churches, they're all rebranding. I even called my old pastor. He wanted to talk. Like, this was like, two weeks ago. And it was just kind of. That was. The tone is like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People kind of admitting, like, exactly what you're saying. Like commerce, like, buying stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or being entertained or politics or sports or technology can't replace what every other human civilization has had. Which Is some shared. And I think that's super important. Shared story. Not a. Not a textbook, but a mythology.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like a place, a container to put. Even if all you're putting in it is. I don't know, but like it. The cultures and humans and have all done well. Banded under some shared sense of what's going on here. Even if it's turtles all the way down, it doesn't matter. Right. I see a lot of that despondency and that isolation attitude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I think could have been. Or maybe we'll say used to be addressed by some sense of clergy, some sense of religion. I think they're working on it. I hope.

[B]

Hope.

[A]

I hope we'll see what happens. I don't like that. I feel like that's a moment in a documentary. You say that and it goes.

[B]

What could go.

[A]

That was before Black Wednesday

[B]

go wrong.

[A]

They'll figure it out. Well, here's open. Janice Joplin says you. Oh, no. Oh, no.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Before we go. I've enjoyed every moment.

[B]

Except.

[A]

Except when you said no, I was curious. There are no AI Soul covers of Iron and Wine songs. And I looked. Oh, that's the bam. Do you have any feeling on that? AI On. On AI and music. And. And

[B]

I mean, it's gonna be interesting.

[A]

It's gonna be interesting. Do you think. Think. Here's a more specific question. Do you think there's a world where the next generation. And I really mean these kids are like 15 right now. Will move it forward in a way that in one hand is AI stuff? In the same way that we used to think, like sampling was. This is dumb. People make.

[B]

No, no, I know what you mean.

[A]

But do you think there's a future where somebody is like, yeah, here's my heart and my soul and here's the tools that I just grew up with. It was normal, and I'm gonna do this with it.

[B]

There definitely will be.

[A]

You think so?

[B]

I. I agree with that. It's a tool that we don't know how to conceptualize. You know, we don't have even know how to think about what could.

[A]

What could it create, what it could do.

[B]

It's like, you know, trying to talk to someone about the Internet and 19, you know.

[A]

Yes, 91. Yeah, exactly. It could be, you know what I mean?

[B]

Like some technological or electricity to, you know, someone, you know, before electricity. It's just. It's hard to understand.

[A]

I guess I'm trying to put out there and see if you agree, and it sounds like you do just a little Bit of optimism. On one hand, I'm like, oh, no. This is.

[B]

Oh, no, me too. There's two sides of the coin and they're very opposite to me.

[A]

Oh, no. And also like, holy.

[B]

And then the other side is like, wow, that's amazing.

[A]

I use. I use it sparingly for anybody that. I just don't want people to jump down Mike, because I know the environmental costs and all that. But I was in a band in high school and I'll go on a Susuno or whatever and I'll hum it and sing it and then I'll play it to my friend who is in the band and it'll fix it it in like some really interesting ways.

[B]

But even what you said about the environment, I mean, we don't know you could set the AI eventually could solve, right? You don't know what those prob. You know, solve those problems.

[A]

I actually was. I thought the same thing too. I was like, when are we going to start getting it on the big problems? Because I was like, I think it's

[B]

going to be very soon.

[A]

I hope so. I hope so. Because even when you look at like any. I feel like the potential of solving anything that could be solved with thinking potentially will be solved. And I'm talking about crazy tragedies, isolation. Like there are. If a solution could be formulated from people thinking about it for a hundred years, it'll do it right? And it'll be something we don't know. And I'm with you. I'm like, please be the environment. Please be violence. Please be illness.

[B]

I think it will be. I think it'll be all those. I mean, I think. I think it's very easy to think about it in a doomsday situation, because that's where our brains go. Very easy. It's harder to think of all the incredible things that we couldn't even imagine

[A]

that it could achieve, including art. I just catch myself going, what would Andy Warhol? If andy Warhol was 15 years old right now and you told him there was a thing that will do anything.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[A]

Oh, cool. Suck my dick, bitch. Like, he's a real piece of shit. Who cares? Get me tapas. I don't know why we're making them this way, but you know what I mean? Like Steve, I always go to. Steven Spielberg used to go in the desert with a 35 millimeter camera and shoot movies. And if you had that kid growing up now, I could see paralysis. Like, why would I do anything? I can do it. But I also see there's a Tarantino out there that's going. A little Tarantino that's going. I can make. Make my car blow up. Like. Yeah. How cool is that? Like. Like special effects. I understand. These are jobs. Please don't. I feel like I'm pretty well informed on all of the complexity.

[B]

There's nothing that you.

[A]

I'm just saying there's also this potential.

[B]

It's going to be complex. But you're. You're not in charge of whether it happens or not. It's happening.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The thing is going to change everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, not overnight. Some things will change very quickly, but yeah. Other things will take long, but it's going to change everything. Thing.

[A]

We. You can say no to this. We could play that voice moment you just played into Suno and say, generate lyrics in the style different. Yeah. And it would do it. It's creepy. But you probably. Let's not upload your. Because that's a. I don't want to say a real song. I'm also a little aware that, like, this might become a species and saying things like that's a real song and an AI song is not a real song. I'm not even joking.

[B]

I don't think it's going to be a thing anymore. I don't think. I mean, really, eventually. I mean, you know.

[A]

Oh, that's what I'm saying. The same thing.

[B]

Yeah. It's going to just change the way all data and the way we experience, you know, it's. That's. That's my point. It's. It's hard to get too upset about it because you don't even know what

[A]

you're getting upset about.

[B]

The scary thing is that it's just change.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't even know. I mean, there's very specific things. People can imagine that to be afraid of it. But I just mean the whole anxiety about what it's bringing, good or bad. It's just that it's changing. We don't even know how to.

[A]

You're worrying about a spaceship that's landing, basically. And that's actually something because I went a little too far into AI news. And then I was like, I eventually unplugged because I realized every video was called you are not ready for this. Or I was like, wait, we're talking about the unknown.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Unknown. Right. And you know what sells when there's a lot of unknown is a lot of people being like, I actually know. Yeah. And they've already been really wrong. And I'm not saying this to look down on anybody. I'm just saying, a lot of people were like, by the time we're here now, it would look like this. They were wrong. It looks different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It changes. And that's something we call reality.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to give, like, false confidence. I mean, who knows what's gonna happen? But I do feel like there's going to be just as many incredible benevolent miracles then.

[A]

Right?

[B]

It'll be a big mix of all good and bad.

[A]

Because you know why? Because everything else is. Yeah. That's what the world is.

[B]

Yeah. But you think about all the pros and cons of what's happened with the Internet, you know, in the last a couple decades when, you know, in the 90s, you got an email. I was like, that's cool. Whatever.

[A]

Right, Right. And when you look at brain rot, I was just. I flew to Miami for the show. The lady on the. In the seat next to me was on her phone doing TikTok the whole six hours. And I was like, holy, bro. Holy. It's almost like I'm not even mad. I'm just impressed. TikTok the whole time I had my hat. I had to put it down over my eyes because it was driving me. I'm like, that. But she was just swiping, swipe, swipe the whole six hours. We land, she took out a second phone. I was like, oh, that's how you're doing? You got another phone? This lady got another phone back up. So we got brain rot. And also while I was on that flight, I realized I didn't have an Uber picking me up, and I scheduled it in the sky to pick me up. So you're. I mean, that's right there. I have this woman. I can hear her brain. I could smell it. Smell like, Jimmy D was ready. Breakfast was ready. And, like, I had a schedule. Juicy, she's like, that's me. I was like, okay. And the car picked me up without any weight when I landed. It was crazy, insane. So, yeah, you're right.

[B]

I mean, I'm not saying no one should be worried. I just. Not sure what to be worried about at the moment, which. Which fantasy to be worried about.

[A]

I hear. I hear what you're saying. I don't. I don't think this is going to be cut into a documentary about the idiots that were, like, before the Tripods come take me. Yeah. And just an inner cut, and they're, like, really sinister. So they play this clip for us while we're being fried.

[B]

Remember? Human fools.

[A]

Human Fools. I do appreciate the perspective that everyone's guess assumes they're just as shitty and horrible as we are. Why. Why not think that the aggregate of all human knowledge and experience would be Martin Luther King Jr. Why wouldn't it be Gandhi? Why is it always right, Your sadistic neighbor that's torturing a bird?

[B]

Survival instinct.

[A]

Yes. Which they won't have. Which they don't have.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Anyway. Yeah.

[B]

Look, you're funny.

[A]

Like, I like to add a little. You're. You're so talented. I. I'm in this movie, St. Peter. You did the soundtrack. It elevated the film so much. Did you know he played. Josh played your music.

[B]

Oh, did he?

[A]

On set.

[B]

Awesome. Oh, that's cool.

[A]

So it would be, like. Which I had never had before, and it really helped, like, helped us drop into these scenes and.

[B]

Vibe.

[A]

Yeah, the vibe. So happy that we got to work together, so.

[B]

Me too, man. You. Your performance is amazing.

[A]

I was like, holy cow. Oh, thanks, man.

[B]

You can not talk in some parts.

[A]

With you, it was just.

[B]

It was such a steady, quiet, very. It was a really powerful performance.

[A]

I. I couldn't want. I haven't watched it yet. Josh was like, watch it before you interview him. And I know it's great. Judy Greer is in it. She saw it. She said all the great, great. I'm sure it's great. I. I'm just. It's not passive for me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

To watch it would be letting in

[B]

a lot of stuff, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's not fun.

[A]

I can't. I don't know if I'll ever see it.

[B]

I get just too in my head about, you know, you're not actually watching. You're, like, analyzing at the same time.

[A]

If you. Whatever you're doing when you're watching your own work. I think I'm worse. I think whatever that is, it made me understand. I wish I were as cool as Adam Driver. But he doesn't watch his stuff. And I'm just like, I think I get it. And it's not that he's cool.

[B]

It's that he's too busy counting million

[A]

dollar bills, too busy going Star wars signing conventions, girls conventions. He does the girls. He does that girls circuit. Was it good? Did. Did I get in there? Yeah. I'm Kylo Ren. I can't. I. I need to hear someone else do it first.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[A]

No, it can't get any better.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think so. So again, if you tried it again. Dry stone.

[A]

Oh, Lena. Nope. Sounds like Tony Robbins. We know we need to embrace the giant. I love Tony Robbins.

[B]

The guy of Silence of the Lambs.

[A]

Oh wait, was she a great person? Yeah, dude. Thank you for being here. Take some modern mammals because that's the shampoo I use. This isn't an ad. I actually think you'll love it. Yeah, you do eat it it. But you got that hair type. Kids that grew up in the 90s wanting that. It'll make it. It'll keep it that way.

[B]

They do the thing.

[A]

You'll do it. Let's get the out of here. Would you say keep it crispy? It's just how we end. I I should say I'm just so touched that you took the time to do it.

[B]

It's my pleasure. Thanks.

[A]

Thank you for being here. And anything you need to plug, we'll do it up front so you don't

[B]

have to worry about it. Thanks a lot man.

[A]

But we say keep it crispy.

[B]

Keep it crispy.

[A]

The Official. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.