Jaleel White

Summary

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Podcast Summary

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Guest: Jaleel White
Date: September 24, 2025

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Overview

In this rich, freewheeling conversation, Pete Holmes sits down with actor, comedian, and entrepreneur Jaleel White. Best known as Steve Urkel (and Stefan) from Family Matters, Jaleel opens up about his unique trajectory in Hollywood, the phenomenon of 90s TV stardom, creating boundaries around celebrity, his passion for excellence in representation, and his journey with faith and emotional growth. The discussion blends hilarious showbiz stories, deep insights on fame and identity, and touching moments about legacy, nostalgia, and balancing public expectation with personal evolution.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Weed, Entrepreneurship & Branding

• The Purple Urkel Origin:
  Jaleel explains he didn't invent Purple Urkel cannabis (fans sent him the strain from dispensaries before he got involved), but later embraced it by launching the "It's Purple" brand ([04:24]).
• Not a Big Smoker:
  "I'm not actually a big weed person. I had my first toke at 33 on a ski trip with some guys...it was fantastic. I can still taste that steak." – Jaleel ([03:43])
• Cultural Commentary:
  Jaleel flags the racial double standards in drug convictions: "How come brown people go to jail for this, but you guys have the best of it?" ([04:14])

The Urkel Phenomenon & Cultural Recognition

• Iconic Name in Pop Culture:
  Jaleel’s Steve Urkel and his real name have become cultural shorthand, especially in hip hop ("Go to rap.com and type it in [Purple Urkel], you'll see how many times it's been named." – Jaleel, [05:05]).
• Kanye Lyric Experience:
  Jaleel shares a story about being in Paris and hearing Kanye reference "Urkel" live:
  "Too many Urkels on your team, that's why your win's low" ([06:52]).
  "I'm at the stadium in Paris...an entire section just looks up at me." – Jaleel ([07:44])
• The Double-Edged Sword of Fame:
  Sometimes name-checks are flattering, sometimes weird. Jaleel recognizes it's part of the territory ([06:02])

Spectacular Live Experiences

• Epic Paris Trip:
  Jaleel recounts flying to Paris both for the French Open (thanks to Martina Navratilova) and the Watch the Throne tour, emphasizing his love for seeing the best in any field perform ([10:00]).
• Springsteen & Live Show Love:
  The thrill of seeing icons like Bruce Springsteen and the power of spontaneous covers at shows ([11:03])

Navigating Celebrity and Boundaries

• Being "Coin Operated":
  On living with expectations of performing his catchphrase:
  "Nobody likes to be made to feel coin-operated." – Jaleel ([14:33])
• Child Fame:
  Jaleel reflects on experiencing wild recognition at 13, the pressures, and comparing it to his daughter's current age ([14:48])
• Audience Intuition:
  He reveals a stand-up–like sensitivity to crowds even as a sitcom star:
  "A satisfied audience is just like, that's my high. That's a cocaine high for me. I could hear the audience. I could hear when a joke could be milked..." ([15:26]-[16:53])

Representation & Excellence in Entertainment

• On True Representation:
  Jaleel distinguishes between mere quotas and genuine, excellent visibility for minorities:
  "It's not a big deal just to see myself. It's to see myself on the highest level. [...] Let's make dope stuff." ([19:53]-[20:00])
• Evolution of Diversity:
  He describes early network efforts at diversity as "growing pains" that have matured into more meaningful representation:
  "Now let's get back to making dope stuff." ([21:10]-[21:12])

Hollywood Life, Paparazzi & Social Etiquette

• Club and Entrances:
  Jaleel humorously breaks down the logistics of making an entourage entrance at nightclubs and the importance of not rolling "solo, Dolo" unless you can manage it ([24:07]-[27:01])
• Paparazzi Arrangements:
  Some celebrities cut deals with paparazzi to arrange photos and split the profits:
  "You sell pictures of me for money, I'll get in on that." – Pete ([29:15])

Private Jets and Showbiz Hierarchies

• The Dreaded "PJ Bill":
  They swap horror stories about being unexpectedly billed for "private jet" flights after being invited, revealing both the awkwardness and unspoken rules in showbiz ([36:04]-[38:09]).
• The Trap of Upgrades:
  Jaleel's advice: "Don't do anything too much that you can't keep doing...It is so easy to upgrade. It is painful to downgrade." ([39:57]-[40:15])

Money, Fame & Childhood

• Early Wealth:
  Jaleel shares that flying first-class as a teen made him aware of money and status, not just for status but out of need for privacy ([42:08]).
• Coach-Class Reality Check:
  On flying coach during "prime Family Matters" and being approached as "not that special if you're back here with us." ([44:37]-[45:06])
• Boundaries with Fans:
  Childhood people-pleasing led him to set firmer boundaries, especially with adults beckoning him as a kid ([46:03]-[47:13]).

The Catchphrase, Legacy, and Artistic Boundaries

• Living with "Did I do that?":
  Jaleel discusses being asked to perform his catchphrase and developing boundaries; draws parallels to Prince and "Purple Rain":
  "Nobody likes to feel coin-operated." ([52:19])
• Refusal to Reboot:
  He resists rebooting Urkel as the magic was partly in the character’s adolescence and perfectionism for the comedic craft ([53:49]-[54:37]):
  "I don’t like doing things half-assed and then giving you an opportunity to say ‘it’s not as good’ or ‘his voice has changed.’"

Family Matters, Contracts, and Industry Change

• Paris Episodes & Representation:
  "We were the only Black show to ever shoot episodes in Europe." ([61:11])
• Contract Lessons:
  Jaleel laments that in his era, even as a star, residuals and producer deals weren't as generous or common as today ([65:52]-[66:45]).
• Friday vs. Thursday Night TV:
  Friday "TGIF" shows were less lucrative than "must-see TV" on Thursdays ([67:21])

Faith, Spirituality & Emotional Growth

• On Faith:
  Describes his Christianity as rooted in spiritual openness rather than dogma; cherishes his home church and his pastor’s guidance, especially during hard times ([87:17]-[88:12]).
• Emotional Maturity:
  Jaleel credits faith with inspiring him to seek "emotional maturity" and better communication – key to being a good example for his family ([89:12]).
• Purpose & Reflection:
  "All we are as performers are vessels for letting people connect with themselves. I'm just a mirror for how you feel about yourself." ([73:48]-[74:01])

Stand-Up, Comedy & the Modern Climate

• Why He Avoided Stand-Up:
  The Michael Richards incident (racial outburst caught on early cellphone video) convinced him that for famous people, stand-up is dangerously public and mistakes live forever online ([94:00])
• Phones Are Modern Guns:
  Jaleel and Pete both compare the anxiety of someone pointing a phone at you to a weapon:
  "When somebody points a phone at me and I don't know them, I feel like they're holding a gun to me." ([97:50]-[98:05])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "A satisfied audience is just like, that's my high. That's a cocaine high for me." – Jaleel ([15:27])
• "Nobody likes to feel coin-operated." – Jaleel ([14:33], [52:19])
• "Don't do anything too much that you can't keep doing...It is so easy to upgrade. It is painful to downgrade." – Jaleel ([40:08])
• "All we are as performers are vessels for letting people connect with themselves...I'm just a mirror." – Jaleel ([73:55])
• "You don't miss Urkel. You miss who you were when you saw him." – Pete ([74:26])
• "Everything we want in life is on the other side of better communication." – Jaleel ([89:47])
• "Nerd wasn't a bad word in the hood anymore...you don't know what you did for brothers with glasses." – from Ronnie Jordan, relayed by Jaleel ([86:22])
• "You can have a photo or you can have my number, but you can't have both." (Urkel's Choice) – Jaleel ([49:08]-[49:22])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Weed/Entrepreneurship/Purple Urkel: [01:50]-[05:08]
• Fame & Hip-Hop Namechecks: [05:08]-[07:11]
• Kanye Lyric in Paris Story: [06:52]-[08:58]
• Bruce Springsteen/Live Show Reflections: [10:00]-[12:29]
• "Coin operated" and child celebrity: [14:05]-[15:38]
• Audience Intuition & Loving Stand-Up: [15:26]-[16:53]
• Representation & "Making Dope Stuff": [19:53]-[21:26]
• Celebrity Entrance at Clubs: [24:07]-[27:01]
• Paparazzi Arrangements: [29:08]-[29:26]
• Private Jets & Upgrades: [36:04]-[40:15]
• Money, Status, Coach vs. First Class: [42:08]-[45:06]
• Setting Boundaries with Fans: [46:03]-[47:13]
• Catchphrase, Artistic Boundaries, Prince Analogy: [52:03]-[54:37]
• Family Matters Production/Contracts: [65:30]-[67:25]
• Faith, Spirituality, and Emotional Growth: [87:05]-[90:39]
• Phones as Modern Guns: [97:50]-[98:05]
• Game Show "You Up?" Funny Story: [103:00]-[104:55]
• Closing Reflections and Laughs: [106:17]-[106:35]

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Tone

The tone is candid, reflective, warm, and filled with the comic energy both Pete Holmes and Jaleel White are known for. There are plenty of laughs, but both dive deeply into psychological and spiritual insights, unafraid to touch on pain, nostalgia, and human growth. Jaleel is thoughtful and gracious, showing pride in his legacy but equally keen on setting boundaries and pursuing meaningful relationships, on and off camera.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare, nuanced portrait of Jaleel White beyond his most famous role. It's as much about growing into a new phase of life, owning one's narrative, and striving for excellence and wholeness as it is about the oddities of 90s TV, fandom, and Hollywood. Whether discussing weed marketing, the strange economy of private jets, the brilliance and wounds of live performance, or the spiritual reminders for better living, Jaleel and Pete create a deeply textured, memorable conversation.

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Ending Quote:
"All we are as performers are vessels for letting people connect with themselves. I'm just a mirror for how you feel about yourself." – Jaleel White ([73:48])

Transcript

[A]

You made it with. You made it with. You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it with. Yes, you did.

[B]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes. What's happening, weirdos? This is a big one. I'm so glad that Jaleel White has joined us on the program. Shout out to Adam Ray for making this happen. Always helpful, kind, sweet, hilarious. Adam Ray hooked me up with Jaleel White, who is also hilarious, kind, thoughtful, intricate, interesting, brilliant, and a delight to talk to. Obviously, we know. We know Jaleel from Family Matters, where he was Steve and Stefan, and we know him from Flipside, his new game show. He's got a weed company called It's Purple, It's One Word and P U R, P L, where they make their own purple Urkel weed, which is super fun. He gave me some. Haven't smoked it yet, but very excited. We're glad that you're here. Not too much else to plug up top here. I'm going to my own website right now, which feels kind of a little weird, but here we are. Petehomes.com I have Largo this week here in Los Angeles. Cleveland, we're rescheduling Miami Improv. I'm sorry about that. Chicago, Pittsburgh, New York, New York. On November 14th, we have new Jersey. The next day, the Milwaukee Improv, Brea, Improv, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Royal Oak, Michigan, or. All of those are available on PeteHomes.com and more will be added as they are added. That was a great sentence. But I really love this chat with Jaleel. It was such an honor to sit down with him, and it went all sorts of wonderful places. So I'm so glad you're here. Let's enjoy it together. Thanks for tuning in. Jahliel White. Get into it.

[A]

Do you smoke any?

[B]

I do, but I can't right now. See, Adam Rae told me that you have your purple Urkel and that you guys smoked when you were on the podcast.

[A]

Well, no, we did that. Well, we did that special when we did it on stage.

[B]

Oh, okay. Okay. Because I was like, I would love to be stoned with you, but if we have another.

[A]

No, that's a different brandable thing. But when we were on stage.

[B]

Here, grab your mic. Grab your mic.

[A]

When we were on stage at.

[B]

This is for Dr. Phil.

[A]

Yeah, for Dr. Phil at the Comedy Store. It was just the coolest thing to do. And then everybody freaks the fuck out when we want to go back to talking and be like, anybody else want it? And they go, oh, they turn into, like, fish in A pond?

[B]

You mean they want it?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

That's like Snoop. The times I've. I haven't seen Snoop enough to even really call him Snoop, but when he did a show with Seth Rogen, I was at. They just started passing his weed around, and my friend Oren hit it, and he said it was the strongest weed he'd ever smoked.

[A]

But see, mine isn't just strong. Mine is, like, way flavorful.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, it's like. It's. It's different.

[B]

That's for you, by the way.

[A]

This is all my good.

[B]

It's all you.

[A]

I mean, look at this guy, man.

[B]

We should have more class. I'm honored you're here. I really am.

[A]

Oh, they'll.

[B]

They'll be thrilled.

[A]

I could feel that.

[B]

Yeah. I think you now are owed at least $50,000 for saying that's not it. That's not what we're getting. I just mean you.

[A]

I get the hustle, bro.

[B]

But this is you. This. This is. That's got caffeine if you need it.

[A]

Okay. Don't need that.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I'm pretty worked up as is.

[B]

Are you a big weed person?

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

No.

[A]

I'm actually not.

[B]

You're just an entrepreneur?

[A]

I. A little more to it than that.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

I had my first toke when I was about 33 years old.

[B]

I'm the same, by the way.

[A]

On a ski trip with some guys.

[B]

Same. Wait a minute.

[A]

I'm just kidding. They were all white guys.

[B]

Same.

[A]

And. And it was fantastic. I can still taste that steak.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In my mouth today.

[B]

And you mean you got high and then you ate. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Incredible steak. We had a chef and everything. It was off the charts. And so it just made the meal just. This is my first time experiencing munchies. So that's why I said, I can still taste the steak. And then I just became so much more curious. I was like, well, how come brown people are the ones that go to jail for this? But you guys have the best of it, right? Right.

[B]

It's cocaine and crack. It's real.

[A]

And it just. That little social, like, you know, construct became fascinating to me. And then at the same time, people were sending me from dispensaries. Purple Urkel. Anytime they would find it, they would send me little screenshots of it.

[B]

Before you were making it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Because again, people act like I made purple Urkel. I did not make purple Urkel.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know. I thought you made purple.

[A]

You're kidding me. I've been Name check in shows, like, billions and rap songs. Whatever. Like the last 20 years.

[B]

A for purple URL.

[A]

Specifically, CU.

[B]

Also in hip hop is a whole thing.

[A]

Exactly, Exactly. And we could talk about that separately.

[B]

You got residuals?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Every time. Trap Called Quest.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Listen, dude, that's the first one I heard.

[A]

Go to. Go to rap.com and type it in and you'll see how many times it's been named.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

It's also. It's kind of. It's kind of a flex. I like it. It's awesome.

[B]

It's a great rhyme, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like Ike Turner gets mentioned because so many things rhyme with Ike. Like, I feel like Ike shows up more than he would if his name was Howard. You know what I'm saying? And Urkel's a fun word to rhyme with.

[A]

Very fun word to rhyme with. Because it's been used so much. From Ice Cube to. You name it, it's been used so much. I personally just enjoy the ones who have used my actual name. My real name. Jahliel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've done it in a really smooth way.

[B]

Jaleel's even better.

[A]

Drake's done it.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Isaiah Rashad has done it in a really, really cool way.

[B]

Get out of here.

[A]

So, you know, people send me this stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[A]

And so, you know, I kind of make mental note over feel great. Who did it the best.

[B]

If you're. I mean, playing it loud and waiting for your name check, I mean, that's got to be a fun feeling.

[A]

It is fun sometimes. And then there's other times where it's weird.

[B]

Oh, I thought it was gonna be mean.

[A]

No, I never. Never mean.

[B]

But just.

[A]

This is weird.

[B]

Yeah, weird.

[A]

I remember I was. I. It's actually one of my favorite times of my life. I. I flew to Paris to the Watch the Thrones tour.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Specifically to go to the French Open one day and the Watch the Throne tour. Tour with Jay Z and Kanye.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And fly back home.

[B]

How many times?

[A]

48 hours in Paris.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And with a big group of people, and it was awesome. And then, of course, ye gets on stage, and he's on these giant throne. He goes, you know, you. You got. What is what. I almost don't even want to remember it half the time because I'm like, people. He goes, how does it. You can edit this. Anyway. You got this. Anyway, you've got too many wins on your team because he's got. What is it?

[B]

Oh, it's a lyric.

[A]

Yeah, it's a lyric. And it's. Too many Urkels on your team. That's why your win's low. Too many Urkels on your team. That's why your win's low.

[B]

Your wins are low.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That's.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Pretty good.

[A]

It's a good bar. It's a great bar, but it. It means your wins are low because you have too many Urals on your team.

[B]

So it's a little bit of a burn.

[A]

So it's like, hey, it's kind of a burn.

[B]

Is it established Steve isn't good at sports? Did we ever see him play?

[A]

No. First of all, I, I, I. I'd crush Kanye in any sport he wanted to play, but that's a separate conversation. That's a right. So, you know, I'm just. I think I take it for what it is. You have two of the Urkels on your team. You got. So, you know, your Winslow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And then. But I'm at. I'm at the stadium in Paris, and it's like, my show syndicated very well in Paris, Italy, all across Europe, for.

[B]

The most part, really.

[A]

And. And so it's like an entire section just looks up at me.

[B]

No, because they already clocked you.

[A]

Yeah, they already had.

[B]

Already clocked me.

[A]

Anyway, so then when he does that, it's like, hey.

[B]

Oh, what did you do?

[A]

Nothing. You just gotta play it off for the people closest to you. They're like, yeah, man.

[B]

Bonjour, Jalil. That's amazing. How many times did they play N Words in Paris?

[A]

Oh, they did it, like, 14 times. I was there. I was there when they did it like that. Epically. 14 times.

[B]

That was the time. Yes, because I thought maybe they did it every show, but they're in Paris.

[A]

No, no, it was specific because how they were doing it, it wasn't like they were just, you know, we were all in our seats. But the, The GA section.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jigga and Ye were, like, manipulating the GA section. They were like, yo, okay, we want half of you over here. We want half of you over there. And then they make them, like, they'd strike the song and make them run at each other or they'd make, like, holes. Give me a hole over here. Give me a hole over here. And give me a hole over here. Dude, this was dope. All right, so the. So the people are all spreading back, creating, like, mosh pit, empty holes, right? And then, like, you ready? You ready? And we're like, okay, can we make four holes? And he was like, okay. They made four different holes, and they.

[B]

Would just keep making, like, crop circles.

[A]

Yes. Like, crowd circles. Crowd circles. Dude, we are. We are coining a phrase right now.

[B]

Crowd circles.

[A]

Jay Z and Kanye were making crowd circles that looked like crop circles.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Nailed it.

[B]

And it didn't even bend the people.

[A]

And then they would. They would. They. They would drop the beat, and then they would all just mosh pit back up in and into the. Into the holes that they created, and.

[B]

Then they'd stop the beat. Do they do the song or they.

[A]

No, they do the whole song.

[B]

They do the whole song.

[A]

They do the. But it was like the energy of just starting each song that way carried you through the whole song.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then they do it over and over again with these different configurations.

[B]

Cause when I heard about that, I was like, it's a great song.

[A]

And then I remember 14 times. Oh, yeah. I'm not sure I got the number right. You can look it up online, but I know it was just, like. It was in the teens, but did.

[B]

You, as an audience member, as a fan.

[A]

Yeah, I loved it. We love it.

[B]

You loved it Every time.

[A]

It was incredible.

[B]

Every time.

[A]

Dude, I'm telling you, this was. I don't ever like to sound like I'm bragging, but I, like, accidentally done some really iconic shit. Like, I. I flew out to fricking Paris. I had just done Dancing with the Stars.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I was kind of, like, zoned from the show, and we had a friend that, you know, was a major manager in the. In the rap game, and he was like, I got us. And it was like, 10 seats. Great seats right on the railing. And just those stages, you know, the way they went up again, and rap being what it is, you're never gonna see those two probably perform ever again together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I doubt there's gonna be a reun. So, you know, so it's like you just caught this moment, and something told me just go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I went to the French Open the first day when I got there, Martina Navratilova, who I was competing with on Dancing with the Stars.

[B]

Oh, wow. That's why you went. Are you a tennis person?

[A]

Yeah, I love tennis.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She had hooked me up with a plug when I got there to the French Open, so I got a chance to do that at the highest level. Wow.

[B]

And then I think watching any. I'm not a tennis person, but watching anybody who's the best at something I do, I think it would be amazing. Watching someone.

[A]

Dude, we're on the same page when it comes to that. I love watching the best of anyone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I flew to South Carolina one night just to watch Bruce Springsteen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel so honored that I did that.

[B]

Yeah. Where did you see him?

[A]

Saw him in South Carolina.

[B]

And you just got the feeling like, this is a.

[A]

Well, a friend of mine was gonna fly down on his jet and so it was like. I never knew. I never knew that. That Springsteen had so many groupies with jets.

[B]

It started in the loading docks. Now it's on the private concourse.

[A]

It left the loading docks a long time ago. They own the loading docks. Yeah, that's right.

[B]

They sold those companies and now they have jets.

[A]

Dude, you get to the clearport and it's just backed up. It's backed up with jets and fans of Bruce. And then he does this thing where he's got the, you know, he's got his. His fans put up, hold up songs. He'll do them and. And on signs. And so that's the thing that's known by Bruce Springsteen fans is that you bring your sign and if you get close enough to the stage or he. Or even Bruce will pick out your song. And it doesn't even have to be a song that he's made.

[B]

I was just gonna say, can you hold up Margaritaville?

[A]

Yeah. No, it just depends on what he's in the mood for. And he turns his band into a jukebox.

[B]

That's incredible because I saw Michael Buble in L. A and he did Billie Jean.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was the best part of the show.

[A]

Oh, it's the best. You're like, fuck his hair.

[B]

Like I have the chills. Just remembering. Yeah, he just did. And he only did half of it. I was like, do the whole thing, dude.

[A]

It's a great. It's a great live performance gimmick.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And it's. I feel bad even calling it a gimmick because it works and it's still.

[B]

Your take on it. You're playing it.

[A]

But when the musician is Springsteen. Yeah. The way they. They cover the song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just. It's uniquely them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what did he play?

[B]

Do you remember?

[A]

I forget the ones that he played. I was actually going to call out somebody else who just did it. Recently, Bruno Mars jumped on stage at his club in Vegas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he did Candy Rain by Soul. For real.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I mean, and he did a whole like 90s 2000 medley.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He was doing SWV. I get so weak in the knees. I'M like, this is Bruno Mar. I mean, crazy. And so when you see your icons like that, do songs like that and.

[B]

Lie, but they're having fun with it too. They're not taking themselves too seriously. And I hope I'm not forcing this. That's something you've been charged to do too. Like, you get this thing thrust on you. And by the way, I'd like to go down as the least Urkel interview you've ever done. I'd love for you to feel respected and seen as a human being, but because it came up like these people have, Bruce could be like, I don't do that. Like rigid. Like, I, I heard Tom Cruise. This is one of my favorite stories. Although it's kind of weird. But I, I want your take on it.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Weird. I don't know if weird's the right word. If you say, show me the money to Tom Cruise.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

He'll say, show me the money. He'll do it. He doesn't have any block. Have you heard this?

[A]

No, I haven't heard this.

[B]

He'll just do it. I just, I can't imagine getting to that place. Like, I guess. What is your take on that? As someone who. People want a certain thing from you that. I'm not asking for none of that. I'm just saying, like, how do you relate to that?

[A]

Well, one, I don't have an issue with anything that I've. That I've created. I never have. It's as a human being, nobody likes to be made to feel as a human being, nobody likes to feel coin operated.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[A]

And so when I was a kid, especially when I was like, you know, at the height of everything, at like 13 and 14, I remember, like, I remember specifically, I was crazy. I was.

[B]

Can we just pause there? 13. How old is your daughter?

[A]

My daughter's 16.

[B]

So you've seen her. Did you look at her and go, you're the age I was when the whole world hit me like a tidal wave.

[A]

I mean, I do, I look at it like that. And she always gets annoyed when I remind her that I had a job. You know, I get it, dad, you had a job. You know, Cause she likes, you know, she's so stressed out. You know, I had a job too, doing the same thing that you do.

[B]

And I had a job, but like, also emotionally. That is a child. Yeah, you're a child. And everybody is about it.

[A]

I mean, I feel like in my heart, I was built for it. Tell me why it's Just a feeling that you get the number.

[B]

I'm so happy to hear.

[A]

The number one thing that, That I enjoy is a satisfied audience. Yeah, a satisfied audience is just like, that's. That's my high.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's a cocaine high for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For real. That's why I've never needed to touch the stuff. Yeah, it is. I can. I. Especially back then in. I could hear the audience. And I feel like now when I look back on it, I say I must have been hearing the audience uniquely, because I could hear when a joke could be milked with physical comedy. I could also hear when it was time to get on to the next joke, you know? Okay. They're not really feeling that. My second and third takes are always way better than my first second. In particular, because, again, I could hear the audience.

[B]

You're describing a standup, by the way. You're going like, oh, they want me to be a little rougher. They want me to be slower. They want me to be faster.

[A]

And we could talk about stand up too, eventually. But I'm like. Cause I'm like, I have a huge appreciation for standup, and that's what's happening. Partially why I know you're like, yeah, I. I know every standard comedian there is.

[B]

But you have it. You have the ear. Yeah, but I have the ear for it. Some comedians when we're starting out, we're like, oh, he has laughter ears, meaning he's bombing, but he thinks he's doing well. You have the opposite, which is a hyper attentiveness to the nuance of the. The sound of like, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the audience becomes like, one thing, and you're like, oh, it. We're. And some people are just tone deaf in that way, but you had it as a 13 year old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

So it's like, I actually probably could have done stand up comedy if I had started at that age. Of course, if I'd had the right mentors. Oh, man, I kind of regret it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what happened was when I. When I started to really appreciate standup comedy, I mean, my favorite standup comedian as a young person was Robin Harris.

[B]

Robin Harris.

[A]

Yeah. Come on, man. That's Bebe's kids.

[B]

Oh, baby. I know baby's kids.

[A]

Yeah, you got your. Robin Harris, man, is the father of Bebe's kids.

[B]

I know baby's Kids.

[A]

And that's. That's a just. It's a great album.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

His album is. That's. The album is Baby he was the.

[B]

Not older, but like he was the.

[A]

Father in Kid in the Kid in Plays House Party.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

He played their father.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you know, he, I, I Def Jam, I grew up with, in a major way, like literally just watching Def Jam at the foot of my parents bed.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I mean, that was must see TV in our household. So I don't whether. Chris, Chris Tucker, Bernie Mac.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bill Bellamy, all those guys. I saw all their debuts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, I'm the kind of guy that if I'm watching you like that, I'm almost kind of recording you.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

And I'm. I'm taking it in different.

[B]

And that's probably where you were getting your training too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you feel like a hyper vigilant kid? Because this is gonna sound stupid, but, like, sometimes I watch like the way my house was growing up, I learned to pay attention to everybody's moods really well. I feel like that helped later when being with audiences. So if like everything was kind of always fine in your house, just kind of gliding around, you don't get that hyper vigilance. Would you agree with that?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think people who grew up in big families, or at least families where there were some distinct funny personalities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had. I had some funny people in my family.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Just naturally funny people.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Probably didn't even know the gifts that they had.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was a big TV watcher, so I watched everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And going to the movies was probably the number one activity I did with my dad.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And. And my dad grew up watching, quite frankly, a lot of television that did not feature blacks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But still, you know, my dad's old enough to have grown up watching the Ed Sullivan show every and then, watching the black performers that came on there. So I think even kind of, you know, fantasizing about what could be.

[B]

Because you start seeing yourself.

[A]

You start seeing yourself.

[B]

Not that you couldn't have projected yourself exactly on anybody, but when you see a black person, you're like, okay, here it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Trying to remember who had on the Jeffersons when they saw him write. Was it Eddie Griffin? I think he was like, I'd never seen a black person write a check. Does that story ring?

[A]

Yeah. No. That said that story.

[B]

It's in my brain for some reason. It was a big deal. But that like representation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is real. And it changed his life. And. And you're saying seeing these performers come through had an extra impact.

[A]

Now, as much as I love representation and it is so Necessary. I also believe in entertainment value equally.

[B]

Tell me what you mean.

[A]

For me, it's not a big deal. Just to see myself. For me, it's. To me, it's to see myself on the highest level.

[B]

Killing it.

[A]

Killing it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I'm like, sinners. Black Panther.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beverly Hills Cop.

[B]

I hear what you're saying. You don't want the pilot season. Minority Hire.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's not helping anybody.

[A]

That's. I'm like, we need an Asian. Yeah. Right.

[B]

And occasionally be like, move the story forward.

[A]

And you know how the networks will do that? Like, there was actually a year where I think Al Sharpton called out all the networks, and it almost felt like he had enough influence to do it, because all of the networks methodically went by each show, each. Each of their main dramas, and they put a person of color on the show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I remember that's how Henry Simmons ended up on him. NYPD Blue. I mean, a buddy of my, Dulay Hill was added to West Wing cast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was all in the same year. I'll never forget. It was like iconic moments. Like, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

NAACP made some noise. And each network said, okay, we'll take care of this one. One, one, one, one. Now, those are all great shows, so I can't denigrate those shows.

[B]

And that might be the Growing Pains, too. Like, it's forced and it's a little corny to just be like, okay, they made noise. We'll do one. But now we are seeing. Well, you tell me, do you feel like it's. It's evolved?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, now we're seeing enough representation where it's like, okay, everybody's seen themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now let's get back to making dope stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, this is how I used to feel.

[A]

I've seen the Asians. Really rich, crazy Asians, you know, crazy rich. I'm like, okay, I've seen you guys. I've seen Hispanics. Like, everybody should feel like they're seen, dude.

[B]

This is how I felt.

[A]

Now let's make something dope.

[B]

I grew up. You're a Christian person, is that correct?

[A]

Very much so.

[B]

And I grew up Christian. And when Christian rock was bad, I was like, this is a bad. This is, like, bad. I wouldn't say that. Then this is bad marketing. Like, if it stinks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's actually hurting to call this Christian rock. You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying all of it was bad. And some Christian music is amazing, like, famously amazing. But I Remember being like, shouldn't we worry about making something excellent first rather than the same thing? The God quota. You have to say Jesus this many times. You have to talk about this many things. You know, the business of Christian rock 100%, which is not helping anybody. Or maybe it's a growing pain.

[A]

I get how they're growing, but like, you know, I don't personally need the tubi representation.

[B]

Yeah. In that way.

[A]

Right, Exactly. And I get out there growing. They're repeating the model. They're doing what FOX did, they're doing what WB did, they're doing what UPN did. They're doing. I get it. And so it's cheaper content and it'll get better and better. And one day we won't be making fun of tubi, but everybody will forget how it got there.

[B]

We won't be making fun of tubi anymore.

[A]

Oh, no. One day, you'll see.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

One day something of like, Yep. Mainstream Value will be on amc and everybody's going to forget the two black guys. They were chasing each other through the hood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who became different people when they jumped over the gate. And in the editing, they're gonna forget that. That movie.

[B]

That's right. A hit forgives a lot of things.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Well, remember AMC before Breaking Bad and Mad Men? Like nobody really. American movie classic. It was like a joke.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I think it's. So that's how I feel about. Remember VCR is used to Blink 12.

[A]

And we're like these dumb things like VCR.

[B]

That was a thing. That was a thing. Yes. And now when I makes like a hand goofy and everyone's like, look how stupid it is, I was like, come on, man.

[A]

It's going to be nostalgia for this generation.

[B]

Exactly. That's going to be nostalgia for this. Remember when I was goofy?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what's weird is I will remember when it was goofy. It'll be kind of embarrassed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was learning. Yeah. When you went to that concert, did you go backstage and see Jay Z?

[A]

I did not go backstage, but I did go to Lay Arc afterwards to party. And that's a whole story in itself.

[B]

What is that? It was a club.

[A]

Yeah, but it's a pretty well known club, though, in. In Paris. And I remember when we pulled up, I mean, it was so thick outside. Like, it was just. You couldn't get anywhere near the door. Not unless you had like bodyguards or whatever they were doing the thing. And I don't really roll like that. Like, I kind of, you know. Yeah, I. I generally Roll solo, Dolo. Or I'm in a group that just makes some sense, and that's so good. And.

[B]

And can we do a sketch where you're giving advice to, like, all these stars that are coming up and be like, don't have an entourage. Have a small group that makes sense.

[A]

Or roll solo, Dolo.

[B]

Yes, James.

[A]

Like all the influences, the entourage. Listen, the entourage matters, but, you know, it costs a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, it's. It's. You know, there's. There's a whole advanced game to that. I've seen it done. Oh. If you have the entourage, you know, you got to have. You want me show you, tell you how you do the entourage?

[B]

Tell me. Tell me.

[A]

Okay, so if you have the entourage, you got to pull up in the giant sprinter that takes up all the space in front of the club or in front of the entrance, then you have to have a massive human being get out of the car without being able to see who's in the car.

[B]

That's not even screaming.

[A]

That's not even baller enough. That guy needs to get out of a trail car. That is probably a Suburban. Okay. A trail car. Okay.

[B]

Like Secret Service.

[A]

Right. He's gotta be massive, too, because the second he comes walking up, everybody is just gonna get out of the way smartly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's going to whisper. He's gonna be a very charismatic gentleman talking to the guy who's running the establishment. Whomever, at this point, the curiosity of who is in this sprinter van that's taking up all this room now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, you might. The cops telling this person they need to move it along.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They're doing the thing. We can't. You don't know who we have inside. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Okay. If your advanced man knows what he's doing, if you're on the list already anyway, this shouldn't be a long process. The door should then open, and now, preferably some beautiful women should get out of the car first. Okay. So that you're clearly beautifying the environment no matter who this is.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. It shouldn't be a.

[B]

You might not be a fan, but look how beautiful everything is.

[A]

Be a immediate sausage fest with smoke billowing out of the sprinter van. That's you. The.

[B]

The message is, we're here to help.

[A]

Right? We're here to. We're here to help what you got going on. Right? Right. So. Right. Even though you can have fun with the billowing smoke and the sausage fest, but that's not, that's not for this.

[B]

Not this.

[A]

Right. So if the ladies get out first, you know, we don't have to put a number on it. It could be anywhere from two to four to, you know, go all the way. Chris Brown with it. 16. And then boom. The person is now revealed. Hopefully there should be some kind of crowd reaction to this person. And they aren't just completely YouTube amazing. But nobody in mainstream knows who the hell they are.

[B]

Which I'm sure have.

[A]

Which have.

[B]

I'm sure people can afford cars.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

People can gather some girls.

[A]

Hopefully you have a place inside. That advanced guy now has done enough work so that inside the. They know where you're going. You don't do all of this to take 16 people into a spot. So you can stand by the bar. Can't do that.

[B]

You need a roped off area.

[A]

That's where this all falls apart inside.

[B]

Well, the guy in the fall car is already in those velocity seats.

[A]

Exactly. Bingo. Right.

[B]

He's making sure there's.

[A]

So hopefully you get walked to a section.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's how you make a grand entrance with an entourage.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been on a red carpet and no one's taken my picture before. I know what it's like.

[A]

I know the feeling. I know the feeling now, mind you, I was 13 when I felt that feeling, but I know feeling you can.

[B]

Remember that far back.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I can. I can remember pulling up to the. For ABC upfronts at the Century Plaza Hotel then Century Plaza Hotel and getting out of our car. And it was like the, the shutterbugs literally stopped. Because, Because I got out of.

[B]

No, I've stopped photographs.

[A]

It's like, oh, okay. So it's like they were taking people's pictures and then I arrived and they stopped.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It, it's, it's not that for me anymore, you know, but, but still, you know, that even that game, you know, I, I love the paparazzi. I, I don't fight with them at all. I, I, They've always been very nice to me. I see very well.

[B]

That's the secret. If TMZ comes up to you. Just be nice.

[A]

I, I see familiar faces. You know, there's, there's there's no need, you know, but again, I don't also, I don't fall into the category of people that they chase.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So there's certain people that if they chase and they're able to get anything salacious at all, you know, just you on a Beach with your lady or whatever. Canoodling or something like that, you know, I can imagine if you're in Mexico and you got all the. You got all the drinks flowing or whatever, and some guy pops out of a tree. Gotcha. You know. Okay.

[B]

That.

[A]

Hey, man, hold on one second. What are we doing? Right? So I've never had that really happen to me in my private life.

[B]

These ever negotiate? Like, let's say they get $50,000 for that picture. Can the star just be like, I'll give you $50,000, dude, I'm not going.

[A]

To say what I know, but tell.

[B]

Me what you know.

[A]

I'm not here for that. I'm not here for God. Heard of it. They called the paparazzi and arrange it themselves.

[B]

Oh, the opposite.

[A]

Yeah. The smart people are like, so I gotta leave this lunch early because I gotta go meet the paparazzi and get my picture taken that I'm gonna get a cut of.

[B]

And like, oh, they get it. They get deals.

[A]

And I. I can only.

[B]

That's the most American thing I've ever heard.

[A]

It's diabolical.

[B]

It is diabolical. You sell pictures of me for money, I'll get in on that. It's just like an ad deal. Whoa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

So I've never really been a part of anything like that, though.

[B]

Here's a question.

[A]

When I get caught, I genuinely just got caught instead.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Hitting the wrong corner.

[B]

Yeah. That's a real. That's a real sighting now me.

[A]

Oh. But getting back. I don't want to. Tangent. Getting back to the lay arc.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So when I pulled up though, a lot of Paris clubs, at least the best of Paris clubs, it's a French thing to have a giant man in front of your club. It's not enough just to have any old bouncer. Like, generally this guy's gonna be like six, seven, six, eight minimum.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They probably have a word for it. You need a Les trois.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

A grand l'.

[A]

Etoile. You need a grand l'. Etoile. I hope we didn't just offend all of France with that probably means something political.

[B]

I'm sor.

[A]

And. And this. The. The guy that was in front of this spot could see clear over the top of the whole crowd.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he looks across the whole crowd and he does like this. And he goes. And I'm like. For a second, I'm like, I'm pretty sure this guy's looking right at me, but I need to check. And it was just like, because you.

[B]

Don'T want to be the guy.

[A]

And it was like, oh, wow. And I'm like. I'm like, okay, wow. You know, and it's like, there are moments in celebrity life where you do kind of get to discover how beloved you may be in a particular environment or. Welcome. Yeah, a better word. Exactly. And my man saw me at the back with this group of women that we were with and the fellows we were with. And so it made everybody else look over their shoulder to be like, who is he waving to? Come forward when we're all waiting here to go in.

[B]

And then the crowd in front of you.

[A]

And then it just kind of of like, parted like the Red Sea, and we just went through. And it was funny because the way he did it was so. It was so grand. They took us to the wrong damn table. It took us to the. Well, when this happens, you know, then the starts happening. Right. We had actually booked a table, but come to find out our table was in a less desirable section.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So. And the promoter immediately just walked us to another table that was closer to what was Jay Z's table. And that table had a $20,000 minimum.

[B]

Oh, my God. So good news, bad news.

[A]

So in that moment, it was just kind of like, well, oh, we knew we had a table, but we weren't prepared to spend 20,000.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So then we worked that out for the evening, and it was. You know, it's just. It was one of the most memorable evenings ever.

[B]

So you were just like, we'll take at the table, but you need to do something.

[A]

No. Even. Even when. Well, it's one of those things that when you realize in the moment, you just kind of play it off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you. You don't say, I'm sorry, there's been a mistake. Can you please take us to the less desirable area that's not cracking and run my card. Anyway, it's like. But I appreciate you recognizing me, and we're going to find a way to fix this. So, you know, maybe more than just one card got involved that evening, and we had a great time.

[B]

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[A]

Weird. All right, back to the show.

[B]

Have you ever been on a private jet and then afterwards they're like. And we'll send you a bill? Like someone invites you on their jet and then they go, hey, just so you know, we're all thrown in. Has that happened to you? Because that's happened to me, Pete.

[A]

Jaleel, you know, this is the. This is the thing about our business that I love.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

I love it when you don't really know somebody. You and I have crossed paths like, what, three or four times just in passing.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Pete. What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? And you don't even know, by the way, I auditioned for your NBC pilot.

[B]

You did not.

[A]

Years and years ago. Yeah, Universal. Years and years ago. What? So this. That's.

[B]

I did not know that.

[A]

That's a whole separate story, right?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then. But we've lived such a similar experience. Authentically Hollywood experience. Not the crap, the tabloid stuff. They. I mean, authentically Hollywood that you can say something like that. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I've gotten that shitty PJ Bill that ends friendships. My buddy PJ Bill.

[B]

I've never heard about it. You're the only person I know that I can.

[A]

That is friendships, my buddy.

[B]

That's a race. Rough one. You.

[A]

You gotta.

[B]

That's a rough one.

[A]

You gotta. You gotta let me know on text ahead of time. On text.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, here's the deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gotta ride for you. Yeah, but that's right, the Venmo hits like this. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

I can't believe.

[A]

That's some rude. And you know what you inevitably do. I'm curious what you did. What did you do?

[B]

I paid it.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

You know why I say you pay.

[A]

And, you know, I. You pay it. And I said, I'm never talking to this fucker ever again.

[B]

That you're like me. I'm not going to make a stink. It'll hurt my feelings. I'll be like, if I go, like, what?

[A]

What Then I feel. I don't know.

[B]

So I'm like. I'm not even getting.

[A]

I feel better having the story, knowing the asshole who sent me the bill, knowing that I walk past him, it's so far all the time in his crappier. In his crappier seats and is like, yeah, I remember your little PJ Bill. To go up to North Carolina. North. North California. I remember you, P.J.

[B]

Bill.

[A]

Oh, it wasn't even a fancy jet either. That's the worst part. We didn't. We didn't have a freaking flight attendant on this thing. Nobody served us caviar. Not even a freaking donut. We're cramming in this thing like a freaking sardine can. Okay. You know, they didn't run our stuff through tsa.

[B]

Okay, I got it. Easy security.

[A]

Yeah, easy security. Easy security. Appreciate that.

[B]

Convenience too. Good.

[A]

But you bastard, I have to admit, you stick me into this cylindrical tube.

[B]

That's the cigar tube. A cigar tube?

[A]

It's a cigar tube.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes.

[A]

Four figures.

[B]

Hefty. Yeah, that's right. That's right. In my case, I. I'm looking back in case those people see I'm not mad. And I did offer. I did offer. I was like, can I kick in? But I was, you know. Know you auditioned for the Cosby Show. Remember that moment on the Cosby show where it's. It's Malcolm and his friend, and they're like, you go in the club, and they know you go in the club. Then he goes, no, you go in the club. And he goes, I think it's his friend's name was Cockroach. Cockroach. He goes. He goes, all right, all right. And he goes. And then one of the best scenes in multi tv, I think he goes, you were supposed to say no. You go, I say.

[A]

I go, that's.

[B]

I. I wanted to be like, I'll throw in. And they'd be like, yeah, that's. That's so nice. Don't worry about it. That's what I thought it was gonna be. You know, we were doing it anyway.

[A]

We were doing it anyway.

[B]

You know, we were doing it anyway. Don't worry about it.

[A]

You know, it's funny, this whole PJ culture and what it's Becoming. Because it's still. It's really blowing up now in. Oh, yeah. In a major way. It is. And I, you know, I'm. I'm still very much a, you know, a public airliner. And.

[B]

Me, too. This is. This is three times, four times in my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not a lot.

[A]

And still very much a public airliner. I just. I've always kind of been of the. Of the thinking, don't do anything too much that you can't keep doing.

[B]

Oh, interesting. You don't want to get used to that.

[A]

Yeah. It is so easy to upgrade. It is painful.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

Know psychologically to downgrade.

[B]

I know. I know.

[A]

It's easy to upgrade.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. They want you to upgrade.

[A]

All of America wants you to give.

[B]

You first class for free. When I was touring and everyone I flew so much, occasionally I'd get the upgrade, and that's a trick. It's drug dealing. Yeah. It's like, first one's free.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Now you're up there drinking free OJ and you're like, what the.

[A]

They got you hooked.

[B]

They want. The seat was empty. Why not use it as a marketing opportunity?

[A]

Hilarious.

[B]

Get the guy in 14C. Put him in 3B.

[A]

It's funny because, you know, I didn't. I was never mentored to be in this business. The fact that I'm even still in show business at this point, I just think is a miracle. And somehow I'm walking in my. My life purpose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because everything has been learned trial by error.

[B]

Is that right? Did you explore it all? I mean, you were given a lot of money at 19 years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you explode or did you have some help?

[A]

No, I've got a whole bunch of stories about that that I actually even talk about in my book, Growing Up Urkelle, but staying with it.

[B]

Did you read it? The audiobook?

[A]

Yeah, I did it. I read the book.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So I love it when people get the audio version. It means that much more to me.

[B]

I was just gonna say, because I.

[A]

I think it's better podcast. I'm not supposed to say that. You know, Simon and Schutzer's like, don't say that. You watched the. Order the hard copy. I'm like, I think it's better if you listen to it in your podcast. I'm gonna say, I think it's better.

[B]

Well, people who listen to podcasts listen to books. That's why I was like, so get growing.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Get growing up, Urkel. Because I love. I think it just. The way it's written, it just lands better coming from.

[B]

You get the tone.

[A]

There's probably things I would have changed, to be quite honest, if I just had a little more Runway on a literary. Not just literary.

[B]

Oh, the way you wrote it.

[A]

The way you wrote it. Because I knew I could say it a certain way versus. You see what I'm saying? Versus the way it lands on the page. But it's okay. I still. I'm very proud of the book. But there's. I talk about that in the book.

[B]

Money management.

[A]

Not money management, but specifically what made me aware of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was flying. First class is what made me aware of money.

[B]

Well, I think that's the way in America to really. They got the curtain. It's called first class.

[A]

But for us, it's so weird. It was never a status thing. It was a need. So I got stuck. I mean, I'll tell. To share this story. It's in the book, but I'll share it. I got stuck in New Orleans for the Bayou classic. That's Grambling versus Southern. It's a huge football game that happens in the Superdome down there. And I needed to get back for table reading.

[B]

How old are you?

[A]

Somehow I'm probably about 15 at this time. And my mom did something rare where she let me go under a guardianship. So this was a particularly fun weekend because I'm away with my mom. I'm away from my mom with a guy who worked on the show and. And something happened with our flight that I can't remember. I just remember we needed to switch flights and the only available seats they had were coach. And it was like. It was either this or phone production and say, you're not gonna make table reading. And I. In 215 episodes, I never missed a table reading.

[B]

Nice. And that's really something.

[A]

Actually, no. I was kind of an iron man as a kid. I had literally two sick days in 215 episodes. Oh, my God. And.

[B]

And so you had to fly coach.

[A]

Yeah, so I had to fly coach.

[B]

And at prime family members.

[A]

Prime.

[B]

This is Prime.

[A]

This is Prime.

[B]

I was actually gonna ask.

[A]

We're like 93.

[B]

Were you ever scared? Like, did you ever feel unsafe because of your celebrity? I wonder if this story plays into that.

[A]

I never felt unsafed. I did run into some bullying issues in public school.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Cause I attended public school the entire time I did the show.

[B]

So your star is rising and now they're mad.

[A]

Yeah. And so certain and certain individuals.

[B]

Bullies in la Also on other series, it's like, why am I getting pushed around by Parker Lewis right now?

[A]

That's a. That's a good bit. That's a good bit. It's. It's. That's good. When. Shout out Corn Nimmick. That's a shout out.

[B]

Wayne from Wonder Years is pushing me. Get the out of here.

[A]

Nah. But it was like when I was being at public school, sometimes I would.

[B]

Feel, wait, you knew Parker L. Those.

[A]

I was. Yeah. Nukor and Nimk. Okay. They filmed right next door to us.

[B]

I thought he was great. I loved that show. I love that show. And sorry you flew coach.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'll keep interrupting.

[A]

No, it's okay. I don't mind. It's a conversation. But, but, but flying coach, it was, it was the amount of questions, why are you back here?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why are you back here with us? Shouldn't you be up there? And it was. And so it's almost kind of like psychologically, people feel like, well, you can't be that special if you're back here with us. But since you are back here and I have total access to you, I have a lot of things I would like to ask you. And that's what it is. For three and a half hours.

[B]

Yeah. It turned into a meet and greet. Yeah, it just did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People coming out of their seats up to your row.

[A]

You might get one or two people back then who actually had cameras, but not as nearly as what it would have been today if everybody had cameras. And then it'd be even worse because then you get people filming you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Unbeknownst to you, if you nap, you sleep on the plane, you know, that type of thing.

[B]

Yeah. And what was your feeling towards these people? Did you feel like you had to perform for them?

[A]

It's so funny that you say that, because I felt an obligation to people. Please.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

A. Because I'm a kid.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

And they're adults.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so that would happen to me a lot where, like, if my parents left the table, I was. I was actually going to share that story. When my parents left the table or something, they go to use the restroom and I was just stuck at the table by myself. As soon as those adults cleared the table, I had adults everywhere at other tables going, no. And I remember I got to an.

[B]

Age, it was nothing coming up, which is also invasive. But beckoning you.

[A]

Oh, beckoning. Oh, because you're a child.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You come to us. Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, oh, you Come over here.

[B]

It's like calling you down in your PJs to sing that song you sing, man, you name. Right?

[A]

So it was. I remember it was Commander's palace in New Orleans. And I remember it was like, I don't know why, but everybody we were there with, we were there to sell the show in syndication at Napi, and they all got up to go to the bathroom together and left me at the table alone. And so everybody was recognizing me, though, in the restaurant. And, I mean, as soon as they left, like, I had two tables.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And it was like. I remember the feeling was like, nah, this is gonna stop. Yeah, nah, this is gonna stop. And so I waved away. And remember, one of the ladies in particular was like, put. Was. Was put off that you didn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was kind of like a moment where I had to be like, no, like, stand your ground. But, like, you're not standing your ground. You're just standing firm.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Because inside you still want to be like, okay, ma', am, I'll come over, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was like, nah. And that was the one moment where I really started to say, okay, you gotta have some boundaries.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so it would happen, even with saying, did I do that? It would be, you know, once you do it for one person, it's like, oh, come over here and do it for them. We'll come over here and do it for them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it extends into your adulthood. I remember I met a girl one time in San Francisco, and it's amazing. You'll meet amazing women and you'll have incredible experiences, but, boy, the ones who left you with any trauma, you remember their first and last name, and you never even touched them.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I had the hots for this girl so much at this particular party. I mean, I was ready to just. She lived in San Francisco, and I was ready to just fly back, like, hey, listen, my plane leaves tomorrow, but I'd come back up, you know, this weekend to take you out, man. And I'm just as smitten as ever. And. And when I look back on it, she's really enjoying basking in the attention. And I must have talked to her for an entire week, just excited to get back up there. And I remember she. She sent me a text, and she said, hey, I don't know if how you'd feel about this, but my friends and I were throwing a 90s party, and we just thought that, you know, like, maybe it would be really cool if you Came.

[B]

I'm dead. This. That. That story funny now.

[A]

And it's just, like, heartbreaking. And it's just like. Like, in the moment when that happens, it's like, oh, man. Like.

[B]

Because she means, like, make an appearance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Yeah, like. Like. And I. And I talk about it in my book, too, where it was like, I remember this one time. Now this one I find even cuter. I remember a gal coming up to me and asking me for. Asking me for a picture. And it was just one of those moments, like, we're human. And it was just like, I would have hollered at this girl no matter what. So for her to come up to me from my backside was just like, oh, you were sent by God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I had a smooth move in this moment because I'd already experienced this other thing. And I said. I'll tell you what I said. You can have my. You can have a photo or you can have my number, but you can't have both.

[B]

Oh, and they call this Erkel's Choice.

[A]

You a fool, Pete. Oh, you go have us online. You go have us online. They about to. They about to have me outside with this one. Urkel's choice. You can have the photo or. Or my number, but you can't have both. What if.

[B]

Please, someone do that. And if the girl goes. Urkel's choice. Yeah.

[A]

And she picked Marry that girl. She picked the photo.

[B]

She picked the photo.

[A]

She picked the photo. So she picked a photo. So again, like, my. She's like, well, I want the photo. So it's like, all right, cool. And so, again, that's that moment where.

[B]

As you found out.

[A]

Yeah, that's that moment as a performer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where you're like. And you know, like, there are emotional things happen to us when we're performing for people or we're appearing for people, et cetera. And it was like, okay, yeah, got it. You think she's attractive. She's amazing. You think she's amazing. You like to get to know her better, but she is not seeing you like that at all.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So you just go ahead and get through this. And I took the photo and. Great. And as soon as I started walking up, she says, wait, no, I want your number two. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, honey. That's where you get your dignity back. Right?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

You get your dignity there.

[B]

We both got something.

[A]

You played yourself. You enjoy that photo.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

So I've had so many experiences like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I really compartmentalize those experiences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And they've helped me grow.

[B]

Well, it's really. Every time I see you, but especially talking to you now, I'm just so happy for you that you're so balanced that you've reached this cruising altitude.

[A]

Oh, thank you.

[B]

You know what I mean? I mean by rights, so many people get chewed up by it, but you seem to. Seem to. Are you in touch though? Because something you said about not wanting to revisit the characters you had on. On Family Matters, because there were multiple characters, like you said, something that really struck, struck me, which was like, it was about your manhood. It was like all of us are trying to incorporate and fold in our inner child. Right. And your inner child in a large part was this character. At least the kid playing that character. So like you're trying to, let me put it this way, when I go home, my parents still want me to be my 13 year old self and you have to like sever that. But that's different. If the whole country is asking you to be the 13 year old version of yourself, does that resonate with you?

[A]

Definitely. But again, I don't think it's just. I don't think it's an Urkel effect. You know, it could be. You know, Prince, the great musician and performer, experienced this. He hated anybody telling him to perform Purple Rain.

[B]

I just saw a clip of him, he hated it on the news and they were like Purple Rain. And he was like, I don't know that one.

[A]

Yeah. And he just really became very, almost adversarial. You know, when you, when you brought it up, brought up the song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Intimated that you wanted him to perform it.

[B]

It's Creed in Radiohead.

[A]

So once again it was like, it was, you know, nobody likes to feel coin operated.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And, and, and so I remember going to see him too at the Kodak Theater when it first opened and, and it was, I thought it was a terrific show, but he made a point of not playing Purple Rain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just these people around me just stomping out. And I remember never forgetting guys like $400 a ticket. He doesn't even fucking play Purple Rain. Right. It was like that guy was near me just. Right. And I'm like, wow. Now what's wild is at the Key Club at on Sunset with formerly Billboard Live. And now I forget what it is. Keys Club it is now he did an after party and then he decides to do it at 1:30 in the morning.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So it's like he knows what it means to people.

[B]

But also.

[A]

But. But I'm using him as an example of saying. It was like, that's an artist that's laying a hard boundary that says, hey, I created that song, but I'm not coin operated. I'll play it in a set when it makes sense for me, either emotionally or for the arc of my career when I'm presenting. For me, what's tougher is I know that there's so much of the magic of the character that lies in the adolescence of the character.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

So if I was Bart Simpson, I'd still be on right now because I'm animated. I'm not a real boy. But listen, this was a Pinocchio situation where I'm like. Like, I'm a real boy. So I had to grow up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So for me, because I'm such a perfectionist when it comes to comedy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't like doing things half assed and then giving you an opportunity to say, oh, it's not as good, or that, or his voice has changed or whatever. And I'll get those criticisms. And I'm like, dude, that's like asking Shaq to get back out there and play basketball today.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You don't want to see Shaq guard Winby today.

[B]

You'll hear his knees from the back.

[A]

Right. That doesn't diminish. Even me saying that doesn't diminish who Shaq was. But it was just like, people just kind of organically respect that he's a retired hall of Famer and et cetera. And with us, it's different. It's like, do the reboot do that? It was like, nah, man. Like, I like to think I'm a retired hall of Famer from that role, and I don't want to give you anything less than what I know it deserves.

[B]

And it's a little bit of a midlife thing. It's like, you don't miss that catchphrase. You miss. I'm talking to the fans now. You miss who you were when you heard me say that catchphrase. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Because we're similar ages. So you bring me back to the leather chair I used to watch it in in my house and how much I love that, by the way. I can't believe I almost didn't tell you. I talk about it all the time on the show. One of the first big balls of my life was the reaching for a star monologue, Steve's monologue to Laura, because I felt like Steve.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There were girls I liked. Nobody ever liked me. And she said, why do you do this? Do you remember?

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

You didn't write that, did you?

[A]

I didn't write that, but I remember that scene. So. Wow. It's amazing recalling that scene because that's not a, that's not a block scene. And typically people only recall block scenes. So like a block scene is going to be the scene in any sitcom that is guaranteed to put you over the top.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it's like, you know, the soup. Not scene for, you know, no soup for you or it turns into Stefan or, you know, those are the just simple iconic things that people remember. You just recalled something that's a lot more subversive. It's an emotional beat from.

[B]

I was crying. I want to give you the compliment. You were a child actor.

[A]

I was crying.

[B]

I believed you.

[A]

Kelly was crying.

[B]

I believe. Yeah. Kelly played Laura.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So Kelly believed you. And I'm at home. It was my first. I'm not just saying this.

[A]

No.

[B]

It was my first like cinematic or dramatic experience of being brought to tears, watching something that's amazing and seeing myself.

[A]

No, like that, that's, that's, that's amazing to hear you say that though, just because, you know, that scene meant so much to me because that was when I discovered how good Kelly and I could be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we rehearsed that scene all week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we had never pushed each other to tears with that audience there. Again, hearing the audience hearing this, I turned around, I looked into her eyes and it just boom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She started crying first and it was like I matched her and it was. I just remember everybody coming up to us after, after we shut it. Oh, my God. Oh my God. It's scene. I seen it. Scene. But I had this real like emotional connection with Kelly Williams who played Laura. And you know, to this day, you know, she and I, we, we could FaceTime each other and you know, I'm. She's somebody. I'm calling back in 30 seconds or within the hour. Oh, that's great. And. But that's not for every. But that's not for everybody.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

I'm saying it was like, you know, fans love your reunions, so they think, yeah, yeah, right. But it's like, nah, you want our reunions to be a little bit coin operated.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right. When we get together, we're not talking the way you're going to want us to talk. We're not talking about the things that are going to entertain you. We're just two kids that are reminiscing about our adolescence.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

And a very pivotal time in our lives.

[B]

Right. It's not going to be. Well, it's the difference between art and commerce. Right. So the show is made to be a show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a reunion. Correct me if I'm wrong, that can be reverse engineering. I think people would like. Would watch that and want it. So let's reverse engineer. We'll make it. Because you know what I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I heard Rick Rubin talk about some superhero movies can feel hollow because they're reverse engineered. They're like, yeah, they want to see Spider man or whatever, do this. But it's not always made from that place of passion.

[A]

No.

[B]

Like, I need to make this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is waking me up at night. I need to write it, I need to make it. I need to produce it. Is that kind of why you resist a reunion, by the way? That feels kind of like a morning radio question. It just came up.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

[A]

No, no. And I don't think it's a. The other thing people need to really understand, though, all the cards do not rest with me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I have an entire studio system that likes to remind me that they control everything and this will go the way we want it to go.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And for me, no resentment, but just recognition.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, yes. But you own something that no one can take credit for even creating.

[B]

Is that true?

[A]

It's the truth. You made one show, and it was going off a cliff.

[B]

This is pre Urkel family mask.

[A]

Yeah. It was headed off a cliff. Life. All right. It is like, you know, I say it even. I watched Family Matters before, you know, I. I was on the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was like, I wasn't overly impressed. It was like, oh, these people want to be the Cosbys. That's kind of what you thought, right? As just a black family watching that show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then this amazing miracle, like, chemistry happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, when I got there and notice I don't say me, I just say chemistry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, my connection with you. My connection with you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

My connection with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was just like, I felt it with, like, at least minimum three or four different people. That was just like, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We could just make magic together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If the, you know, in the constructs of our character. So was that hard?

[B]

The. The Fonz factor? Remember when they wanted.

[A]

That's the Fonz factor. That's a better way of saying they.

[B]

Wanted to call Happy Days Fonz's Happy Days.

[A]

And they wanted to change the name of Family Matters. I heard at one point, but our producers resisted, and I'm glad I did.

[B]

Very similar Henry Winkler kind of dude.

[A]

I. I am. I am the black Henry Winkler. I am the black Henry Winkler. So you are. That guy won an Emmy. And maybe one day I can do. Who knows?

[B]

That's right. Oh, look at that career. I mean, I know you've been working, but I mean, like, that dude had a whole second act nobody even knows imagined.

[A]

But the second acts. Come see. Now I have the benefit of Henry Winkler being in front of me.

[B]

That's right. He did it for you too.

[A]

Right? So, yeah. Now that all, you know, cultural and racial dynamics have changed, I can look up to somebody like him and be like, hey, okay, I see what you did there.

[B]

Yeah. And did you feel any turbulence when it was really starting to shift, like, oh, this kid's the secret sauce.

[A]

And I talk about that. I've done it in the book plenty, so I'd never like to rehash that. You know, we got through the turbulent times. I like to celebrate the times that we got to where we really became a family. You know, my favorite. One of my favorite episodes we ever shot is in Paris, because we did two episodes in Paris, and we were there for 12 days in Paris in 1996 during the Olympics when they were here. I remember that because I was trying to come home and watch the Olympics in America through French television. And I saw the difference in Olympic coverage, too, which was amazing. We are very American. American American. And if an Ethiopian wins, we don't want to inter them.

[B]

Really? I didn't know that.

[A]

And in France, they cover it more with a BBC feel. Get to know the winner wherever they come from in the world.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And in America, it's like this just.

[B]

In a non American is one. In other news, this struggling white American did come in 37. We're talking to him live.

[A]

I don't know why you're talking to me.

[B]

I didn't even place you quick.

[A]

You're quick. This man is fast.

[B]

We're on the Internet again. These are sketches coming. I'm getting them from your setups, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like we got a couple.

[A]

Yeah, but that was one of my favorite episodes that we ever shot because we were the only black show to ever shoot episodes in Europe.

[B]

Did you rebuild the set there or was it a special?

[A]

No, it was special everything. And it was A ludicrous setup, by the way. A total 90s setup where like. Like I transported the entire family there, like, on a teleportation device.

[B]

Yes. You were also the Donatello of that show. You know what? It wasn't Urgo the Donatello.

[A]

Listen, I had.

[B]

You did machines. Listen, you're also the Stewie from Family Guy.

[A]

These were out of my control. These were not my creative decisions.

[B]

You know what's weird is when I was a kid. This is real. When I was a kid, I thought maybe you came up with Stephane or Kel, because I was like. Like this seems like this actor. It just wants to be like, look, I'm a real person because I'm in. You know, I'm in junior high, and I'm like, he wants to be cool. But they. That they came up with. I don't mean like. It didn't feel sweaty.

[A]

No, I just.

[B]

I was just like, oh, he wants to be real.

[A]

I was always comfortable in my skin, man. I actually found the character to be boring. And I talk about that in my book plenty.

[B]

And Stephan.

[A]

Yeah, I just thought. Yeah, I thought it was a one note joke, and so I was really taken aback when everybody just fell in love with them.

[B]

Well, what I found at who cares? I was just gonna say the fact that Laura liked him because I get that, like, this idea that we all get transformed, and then there's this like, oh, you like me now kind of thing. That's what Stefan or Kel meant to me. For what it's worth, it's. I feel ludicrous telling you that. But the reason it wasn't just one note was I found it meaningful that you had to choose between Laura as someone who isn't really you or yourself. And we all have to do that. We all have to choose our authentic selves.

[A]

But these are all storytelling tropes, though, that keep you locked in.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

So they don't necessarily have to run parallel to real life. They just have to hook you.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. But I do think there's some.

[A]

Oh, trust me. You know how many brothers come up to me even in the streets? Be like, how come you ain't choose Myra, man? She was sitting right there in front of you the whole time. How come you ain't choose Myra, man?

[B]

But you did write an episode of the show.

[A]

I wrote two episodes.

[B]

I'm sorry, excuse me. No, no, I didn't mean it like that. Excuse me. I just meant two, and I read that one was the highest rated of that season.

[A]

They both were.

[B]

Excuse me.

[A]

They both were. The Grandmama episode I wrote and also the New Edition episode.

[B]

Now, did they break the story and you wrote it, or you broke the story?

[A]

No, I broke the story. I just. That was.

[B]

You just wrote it.

[A]

So. And nobody rolled their eyes.

[B]

Oh, the kid wrote a script.

[A]

So this is. So this is what's great. Crazy. I always wanted to be David Duclon, our executive producer and showrunner. Sorry, I'm getting a little choked up because he just passed away.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know.

[A]

I'm sorry. And David was our leader, and I. I always wanted to be David. Sorry.

[B]

It's all right.

[A]

It's weird when you say somebody's name and they passed. They passed away Recently. Recently. Like, literally. I always wanted to be David. David was our head writer. And so I always really felt like as I got older, I'm a producer in an actor's body. And so through David, I started learning more about producing breaking stories. He and I would go play golf at Sherwood Country Club when I got a little older, like around 17, 18. And so in my naive mind, when that show was done, I was gonna go on to create other shows. And I didn't realize that if your deal doesn't dictate that you will go on to create other shows.

[B]

Right.

[A]

These relationships that you think that you have are vapor. Are very. Are vapor. They are.

[B]

Yeah. That's why you put it in the contract. This is what makes Hollywood such a fucking weird place, is like, we do love each other. I mean, it. Like, on shows. I bet there's love there. And put it in writing. Like, what?

[A]

So based on the success of the character.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, I. For people who understand the business, I probably should have had about four to five put pilots.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[A]

That was just in my.

[B]

But when I.

[A]

Like, they were just in my contract, I'm not even. I didn't have that.

[B]

When you were in the last season, you weren't making the Mill, an episode that, like, Friends broke all that. And also these producer deals. Like, you're absolutely right when you see. I'm thinking of Jon Hamm, because I think I said Mad Men.

[A]

Love John Hamm.

[B]

I love Jon Hamm, too. And I assume that Jon Hamm's agents, when he's a producer on Mad Men, it's also, like, first look deal with amc, like, guaranteed script, like this sort of stuff. That's the business now. But you. You know, you were that show, and that time was trailblazing all of this stuff later. The fact that you were a producer was progress, but they didn't put that sort of stuff in there. And you weren't. You made good money, but it wasn't the ludicrous money yet.

[A]

Yeah, we. It was. And it also depends on where you. Where your success fell. So, you know, the demographics that we were performing well in were not the Diet Coke demographic that Friends was.

[B]

I see.

[A]

You know, not every success is the same I see in our business as far as business model is concerned. And they just stood to make so much more money because. Because we're on Friday nights at 8 o'. Clock. Friday nights at 8 o' clock ain't Thursday night at 8 o'. Clock. Ain't Tuesday night at 8 o'. Clock. In terms of audience size, man, I wish we had. You know, we were left to kind of hold up Friday night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While Full House went to Tuesday night.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So they got a much bigger audience.

[B]

And Cosby was Thursday.

[A]

Right. Exactly. Right. So all these nights and times, periods and whatever, this all dictated how much you got paid.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is crazy. Cause as an unpopular kid, I'm not trying to be funny. I didn't have plans on Friday, so I loved I can still sing the TGIF theme song. You know what I mean?

[A]

Hilarious.

[B]

I was there for it.

[A]

Hey, listen, I was right there with you. I was doing the show and watching the show.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Until I was 17.

[B]

Well, that's what that memory especially is. I'm home alone. You know what I mean? It's Friday night. My parents are probably on a date or something. My brother's out being a kid. I'm just rocking tgi Ordering Pizza Hut.

[A]

If somebody loves you.

[B]

That's right. Or the bucket if you're lucky. My dad would get KFC if we were really kfc. Bucket, bucket.

[A]

I was a shaky chicken and mojo kid myself.

[B]

Oh, California, California that's the way. That's the way. This episode is brought to us by our friends at Apollo Neuro. Apollo Neuro is a revolutionary new wearable that helps you naturally manage your stress, improve your sleep, boost your focus through gentle, scientifically backed vibrations. You always see me wearing this on stage. See me wearing it when I'm recording the podcast. It is ideal for those seeking a holistic approach to wellness, meaning you don't have to ingest anything. It's just on your body. Apollo Neuro fits seamlessly into any routine, using these specific vibration frequencies to signal safety to your brain, helping to calm your nervous system and Promote relaxation. These silent, soothing sound waves gently calm your nervous system and can help you fall asleep. Stay asleep, which is huge. I always say if that's all it did, it would be worth it. But it can also help you dial in, fight off some add symptoms and focus. That's one of my favorite settings is focus. There's also joy. There's also unwind. There are all these when I'm traveling, I have it rocking on. Unwind the entire time. Reduce stress, improve sleep, boost focus, support recovery. Drug free and non invasive and science backed. Developed by neuroscientists and supported by clinical research, it's versatile. You can wear it on your wrist, your ankle, or you can even clip it to your clothing. Trusted by experts Made in the usa Try Apollo Neuro today and transform your wellness routine. Act fast. They're always selling out. Go to ApolloNeuro.com weird. You'll get 60 bucks off and a free sleep band. That's a P O L L o n e U-R-O.com weird. Support your body Support the show. Speaking of supporting your body, one of the best peeps picks these ads, call them pizza picks that you can do. Supporting your body and supporting the show is a tushy bidet. I'm obsessed. Once you try a tushy bidet, there's no going back. There's only one way to clean your butt and it's a tushy. Why in 2025 are we still using toilet paper after a deuce? If you had shit on your hand, would you just wipe it with a tissue and be like, all right, I'm clean?

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Of course not.

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[A]

It.

[B]

And I'm not, you know, looking around for trauma. It just seems like. Did you. Have you reconciled that, like your child? Like, I. I'll tell you a story to tell you the question. Full house. There's the Olsen twins. They're saying, you got it, dude. Behind the camera is a guy holding a jelly bean. And if she says it, she gets the jelly bean. I'm not saying you were jelly bean. You seemed like a. Older than your years, but you were a child, and your childhood was commoditized to a certain extent. I mean, to a great extent. What am I saying? Like a symbol of the 90s. This is a leading question, but I assume you have grieved that a little bit by meaning, processed it.

[A]

I don't think I grieve the 90s any more than anybody else my age. You know, when I just put up a post recently and Jamie Lee Curtis did this thing where she. She acknowledged me as the only autograph that she'd ever gotten on Stephen Colbert. And when people do stuff like that and it goes viral, everyone sends it to me, even people I haven't heard from in months and years, right? So it was cute. And so I did a response video to it. But in the response video to it, I talk about Ms. Curtis being my first put your head down actress. And so when I signed that autograph for her, I only knew her as the lady with the big boobies from Trading Places. And whenever my parents would take me to a rated R movie, you had.

[B]

To put your head down.

[A]

You had to put your head down.

[B]

True lies too, right?

[A]

There you go. You had to put your head down. That was your favorite. And so you know that movie Coming to America.

[B]

Oh, the royal penis is clean.

[A]

Yeah, the royal penis is clean. Rosie Perez. And do the right, right thing with the ice cubes. Put your head. Gotta put your head down. So all of these were my put your head down movies. And so that's what she meant to me nostalgically. And when I shared that aspect of the story, man, it took on a whole another life of its own. And now everybody in the comments is just putting down their put your head down moves.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[A]

So you brought up something earlier that I love to let people know. I'm very aware of is what we do now, thanks to where it's going with podcasting and the ability to speak to an audience directly. All we are as vessels for.

[B]

All.

[A]

We are as performers are Vessels for letting people connect with themselves.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I'm just a mirror.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

I'm just a mirror for how you feel about yourself.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so because I made you feel a certain way during this period of time during the 90s, when you see me, it's almost like looking into some type of portal into your own life. Not my life.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Into your own life of where you were, who you were with, how you absorbed what it is that I did.

[B]

You don't miss Urkel. You miss who you were when you saw him.

[A]

So for me, I'm like, listen, listen. Obviously, there's things that you work through. All that's done, all that's in the past. I get it now. I get it on so many levels. What my purpose is, what I did, how I need to harness it to move forward and continue working on the things that I work on now. And that's one of the reasons why I actually feel like I've been spared by the man above to continue doing what I'm doing. It's like, okay, you got the lessons that you need. Do you ever kind of feel like you live deja vu in life where it's like, where you, like, until you.

[B]

Get the lesson, you break the cycle?

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

It's like, man, I'm just like, this is the same girl, only in a different form.

[B]

I've done that.

[A]

I'm like, I gotta stop dating this kind of girl.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And then all of a sudden, boom, that cycle breaks, and you. It's like, you don't even attract that kind of woman.

[B]

That's right. It's a different you.

[A]

The woman who even looks like that is not even interested in you anymore. It's like, wow.

[B]

Yeah. I had a friend, it was Rob Bell, actually, who's a spiritual teacher and a wonderful guy.

[A]

Guy.

[B]

When I was just starting to come up, he was. I was like. And now let's say I did my talk show and then I was going to do my HBO show. He's like, well, he. I forget how he phrased it, but he was like, you showed that you could handle a little. Then you got a little more. Like you didn't explode.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And in the ego way. In the whatever. Different ways. Of course, there are people that do explode and keep going. But it felt like this. This. I don't know, this confirmation. It felt like, let's keep going.

[A]

Now, I do need to ask you a question. Whatever happened with Your show on NBC that didn't move forward. Cbs, was it cbs? Okay, okay.

[B]

I can't believe.

[A]

But the thing is, you were doing. I thought it was NBC only because I auditioned for it at the Bungalows on the Universal's lot first.

[B]

I just can't believe you auditioned. I feel like Jaleel.

[A]

I know. Again, this is the game that our business used to play on us with gatekeepers.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

In a world. Now I'd call you and say, hey man, can I send you a self tape or. Just gonna let you know I'm gonna send something in for you to look at.

[B]

What do you.

[A]

What are you looking for? I didn't have any access to you. You were just this hot up and coming comedian. And I got these executives here deciding if they want the guy who used to play Stefan and Steve standing next to him. How would that look? You had. And, and I think that's.

[B]

They recast that role a couple times. The pilot was a different guy.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I think they were playing around. You know who got that part was Taj Mah, who's amazing. From Sister. Sister. Really good guy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Really, really good guy. But I, I can't. I didn't know that.

[A]

But I think I would have had a stronger chemistry with you.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Taj and Jaleel. I'm gonna say Tajil. Let's just do a whole reframing. I. I loved doing that show. It was called how we Roll. We did one season and that's when I was like. When I say like. Well, you tell me. Doing a multicam can be the most fun. I couldn't believe how fun it was.

[A]

It can be incredibly fun when the, when you are connected to the point of view or the character that you're playing.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[A]

If you are not connected with the POV and you get writers and showrunners who are treating this like a stepstone to their next job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It can be painful because now you're doing it in front of a live studio audience and they are checking their watches as you are doing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's still stinks.

[A]

And it stinks.

[B]

That's not Family matters, though. It's other shows.

[A]

No, it's not family matters. I mean, I've just been on other, you know, other experiences.

[B]

I just love that.

[A]

But even on Family Matters, like, hey, you can still have a dud episode.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

You know, you do 215 episodes all. And all of that is not, you know, worth acknowledging yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you, you have an episode every now and then.

[B]

Of course. What's it feel like when you're on its feet though, and you're doing the stinker?

[A]

Yeah. You, you feel like a 15 year old who wants to drink but you don't know how to order drink.

[B]

It hurts.

[A]

Yeah, it hurts.

[B]

Well, you're a people pleaser at that age.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

How did you get over that?

[A]

I mean, it's on to the next. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't stick with you long. It sticks with you about as long as a loss does for a professional athlete, you know, until you start playing the next game.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, but, and how did you.

[B]

Get over the people pleasing, though? Because you don't seem like a people pleaser now.

[A]

That's funny. Well, good.

[B]

I don't mean that in.

[A]

No good.

[B]

You're a real piece of shit. I don't mean that. I just like, I'm seeing a boundary. I mean, this is a. Yeah.

[A]

No, you don't have to qualify what you're saying. I'm glad you don't see a people.

[B]

Pleaser necessary now because work that out.

[A]

I just think that, you know, a. You change on a molecular level when you become a father. Yep. And the only people that I need to please are, you know, my family, my immediate family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now do I. Am I person? I love seeing happy people around me and satisfaction. I, I love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I live for it. I can't. I loved Magic Johnson because of the way he distributed the basketball.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love that his passes were magic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and that was his unique style of play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would literally play pickup basketball and count my assists.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because I'm trying to get a double. Double Magic Johnson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I couldn't get a triple double because I wasn't tall enough. But I'll take the double double.

[B]

Yeah. So that, that's really telling.

[A]

But okay, so, but so that was my, that was my personality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In, in, in, in general when it came to my connection with people. But as you get older, you just have to understand when people don't get what they want from you, it's a human condition. They're going to like you less.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and as long as you're walking in your purpose and you are well intentioned, that's the key right there. And you're well intentioned, then you don't have to feel bad about somebody else not getting what they wanted.

[B]

Because what is your intention? Your intention is your intentions change from.

[A]

From circumstance to Circumstance. But I generally am always thinking about somebody else, how they're feeling in this moment. You know, if it's almost kind of like when somebody says, you know, does it bother you when somebody calls you Urkel? And it's like, no, it doesn't bother me. But let me give you a scenario. I'm having a romantic dinner for two at a pricey restaurant on Valentine's Day, and you're having a romantic dinner for two with your wife across from me at the. You know, this is a public restaurant. And at the end of your meal, you feel compelled to walk over to my table, lift up your pants and go, did I do that at my table? Table? How do you think that makes me feel in the context of what we're both trying to achieve this evening? A romantic evening with both of our ladies?

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's unfortunately a lot of people that don't connect with other human beings enough to know that that is incredibly rude and it's socially just dumb right at the top.

[B]

It's not funny.

[A]

Right? It's not even funny. It's not even originating, for example. Exactly. Right. So I'm like.

[B]

And. But also, it's inconsiderate. And when I'm not being considered again, it goes back to kind of childhood stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. I start to feel unsafe.

[A]

Then you start. Yeah, you start getting mad. You start like, okay, you're not even considering me, man. I'm just roadkill for you.

[B]

You don't know if. If you'll do that. What else will you do? That's.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Disregarding.

[A]

Bring it home.

[B]

Right. So that it's not even crazy to feel unsafe when somebody. That's why if somebody's watching reels loudly on a plane, I'm like, if you do this, like, who are you? I just. I'll overreact.

[A]

No, I remember I had a terrible interaction at one of my favorite Mexican restaurants in LA called El Cholo. You cannot be black from LA and not know El Cholo on Western. It just. It's a thing. It's a thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I probably haven't gone back since subconsciously because of this interaction. And I'm just sitting there eating my chips and salsa, and a woman just came and just slid over next to me.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

In. In my booth just slides next to me. She was like, oh, you gotta take a picture with me, honey. And she starts just going into her act. I'm like. I'm like, baby, baby, hold on one second. You. You. You already. You're sitting down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can't. You can't do that. And she's like, oh, you a jerk in real life. That's how quickly our interaction got.

[B]

This is a Chinese woman.

[A]

No, we're not gonna put a race on the. Right. That doesn't help the story. Pete, work with me here. I'm trying to teach social etiquette to people who've never met me.

[B]

I'm racist.

[A]

But I'm like, yes. But I'm like, but that.

[B]

That's. That's incredible.

[A]

That's. That's so. I couldn't even imagine crashing Jennifer Aniston's table or something like that. Like, would they ask me to leave the restaurant? Would they ask me to, like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And the restaurant. You know, the nature of the restaurant. Because I had to get up and just go tell him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I got up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, excuse me, excuse me. She's like, oh, you're really a jerk. Like that. And try to make an issue. I said, hey, you gotta move my table.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm like, we just not even gonna be able to enjoy our meals now at this point. And they were kind of slow to understand what the circumstance was. And so I just dipped. I just did the smooth thing and just dipped. You know, but those are moments where it's like, I don't necessarily. We. Anybody who works in entertainment, we're not gonna get a lot of empathy.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

You're gonna get more people that say, well, she was excited.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, hold on one second.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Excitement is one thing, and I accept that from a child.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A full grown woman sliding into your booth.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Demanding a photo. And then when you say, hold on, can you at least just stand up from my table first?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And they go, oh, you are a jerk in real life.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's a lot.

[A]

I don't even know how to have debate anybody about that.

[B]

Yeah, you're right. It's hard because it's complaining about fame, which is something that I think a lot of people.

[A]

And so a lot of people are attitude. They just don't have a lot empathy for that. And to me, that's not about fame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That has nothing to do with fame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That has to do with class.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's nice. Well put. I also, I think, because your character was. Are we. Can we say a nerd? Yeah, yeah. Because, like, so you played ball with Clooney. I saw that on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Clooney, I imagine, gets women like that sitting down and wanting a kiss. Like, my boyfriend said it's okay if we kiss. That's like the way he's violated. You're violated. Like, oh, there's a nerd. I know it's not you. I'm just saying that's what they're thinking. I'm gonna do what the characters on the show did, which was disrespectful.

[A]

The worst is when a nerd tries to disrespect you. Tell me what, that's the worst. What do you mean? Cause then that brings out another side of me that's like, whoa, who is this girl guy? And it's like, bro, Like a real nerd, bro. You a real nerd, bro. The way you dress, the way you talking, the way you moving. I don't know how far on the spectrum you are, but the Asperger's is clear. Right. And you think that this is the moment for you to punch down on a nerve.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then you gotta kind of remind them, like, ah, nah, bro. Like, I'm good at my job. You gotta relax.

[B]

That's so funny.

[A]

Let's all just relax.

[B]

Isn't it funny that it all was all autism? Like, Steve. Steve is autistic.

[A]

Yeah. Steve got to be on the spectrum.

[B]

Steve's on the spectrum. Got to be, cuz there's a million. There's a billion ways to be on the spectrum.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not just one thing. And back in the 90s would just be like, that's a nerd. Revenge of the Nerds was a bunch of people with autism.

[A]

Yep, Yep. That's hilarious.

[B]

We just didn't know what to do with it. And by the way, you go to certain parts of the country, you still don't know what to do with it.

[A]

You still don't know what to do.

[B]

I'm from Boston. They're still going like, who's that weirdo? I'm like, like, all right.

[A]

One of my favorite comedians over from Atlanta, Ronnie Jordan, man. He works with me on my game show Flip side. And Ronnie just, you know, he'll. He'll sometimes say some really heartfelt stuff where he'll. He'll lay some heartfelt words on me, and he's like, jay, after you, man. Nerd wasn't a bad word in the hood anymore.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

And it's just like that, baby. I'm telling you, you don't know what you did for brothers with glasses.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

You know, everywhere.

[B]

Also, the kid. Look, I don't want to Butter your bread too much. But it makes me feel good, good to share this with you. It's like I saw myself and Steve. I'm not just saying that. That's why I'm crying. I had the girl and there I was in a small school, too. I was like, there wasn't a lot of slots for the low status kid, and I got it. And then these kids have girlfriends and they, you know, they were cool or whatever they were doing. And then I'm home on Friday night watching Urkel. But seeing myself, that's the mirror. That was representation for me.

[A]

That's dope.

[B]

So real quick, because I want to be respectful of your time, let's talk a little bit about your faith. Is that okay? We do it on it.

[A]

I didn't know you were. You were a Christian.

[B]

Well, I love Jesus. I'll say that. I wouldn't call myself a Christian because. Well, we don't have to get into that. I want to. We can shit. We can bond in our love of Jesus. How's that? I don't go to a church. I don't belong.

[A]

See, I will go to churches. I will go. I have a home church. I don't go as enough as I should, but I feel so connected to them that I can watch them online. And the pastor, Pastor Julian right here at Oasis is amazing. I just think he's one of the best orators in the city.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Just what he's done for me at times, especially during pandemic, I just, I felt. I really felt the spirit of the Lord just speaking to me through him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there are a lot of false prophets out there, so, you know, you got to find somebody who speaks to you. I'm also extremely respectful of everybody else's religion.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So I'm a little more spiritual in that. I feel like religion can. Is designed at times to divide people. And whereas spirituality, there is a creator, guys who had to have known that they were. They were sending his word down or her word or its word down through all of these different religions.

[B]

Well, you. You went right to the heart of it. Because when I say the reason, I don't want to claim Christianity. How can you love Christ and not be a Christian?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't like the division.

[A]

I don't like the division of.

[B]

As soon as I say that, the way humans are. He's not a Buddhist. Oh, you're not a this or he's not a that. And I'm like, I don't like any of that.

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm I am in the many paths up the same mountain. One truth, one God, one truth.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I do resonate because it's the way I was raised in it, with the words of Christ and also just the idea of Christ. It just makes me feel warm and good. So that's a good vehicle for me. So what else does it, what does it mean to you? This isn't a test, by the way.

[A]

It doesn't feel like it. Okay, good. Remember, I'm the guy with the boundaries. Remember, I'm not pleasing you. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I have to imagine as a public figure who's in a faith, you might, you might be like, well, let's do the checklist. You know, virgin birth, sinless life, death and resurrection, heaven, hell, all that stuff. Let's put that to one side theology and just be like, what does it mean in your day to day to be a Christian?

[A]

In my day to day it means to be a, a guiding light for my family, my wife and my daughter especially as I've gotten older to really work on my emotional maturity.

[B]

Temperance. Yeah, my wife and I were just laughing about temperance. It's an old church word. Patience.

[A]

Your emotional maturity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think everything we all want in life is on the other, other side of better communication.

[B]

Oh, that. See that should be the clip. It's gonna be us laughing about some dumb shit, but that's good. Everything we want in life is on.

[A]

The other side of better communication. And it's your choice to figure out what that communication needs to be.

[B]

I just saw a clip, by the way. Try to stay off socials as much as I can. But I saw a good one that was like, like just the phrase that hurt my feelings. Can, can you phrase that another way? Oh, I was like, that's good, that's a good one. Just to see. Was that your intent to hurt my feelings?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cuz I'm taking it that way.

[A]

Yeah. No, that's smooth.

[B]

Isn't that good?

[A]

That's smooth.

[B]

That is smooth.

[A]

So again, even that, like that's, that's you mastering brevity.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, saying something succinct.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Short, y', know, phrasing.

[B]

Curious.

[A]

Phrasing it in a, in a, in question form so that it's not defensive. Yeah. The second you turn defensive, you know, both people get defensive and then just lock horns.

[B]

Doesn't go anywhere.

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, the other thing is just I feel like I've always actually been blessed with old souled instincts, but a lot of those instincts got suppressed by either politics or my age at the time. So it's like you're. You know, I grew up with a mom who said. Said, you know, she was. Because I said so. You know, that's an adult. You don't. You don't call an adult a liar. Well, how do I communicate that they're lying? Okay, follow up. They're lying.

[B]

What do I do?

[A]

Right. You're right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And so, like, that. That would create. Literally, that kind of conversation would create conflict even between me and my mom.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Like, you don't call an adult a lie. Okay, well, how do I communicate that they're lying? Yeah, but I know they're lying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're still bucking me right now. I told you that. You see what I'm saying? But that was her generation.

[B]

That's right. We're different with our kids.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

If my daughter was like, everybody, I'd be like, you did the right thing telling me.

[A]

Right. So. Exactly. So I'm like, how do you think you catch pedophiles and people touching kids inappropriately? You have to have an open line of communication with the child and a trust in what that child sees.

[B]

Also, I'm not trying to be funny. When we get a new babysitter, I'm like, We go. We. She says it to me. I go, and who. Who touches this? That. Nobody. What happens if they. Nobody. What happens if they say you get in trouble? If you tell me. I tell you all of that. It's. It's. It's routine in our house.

[A]

So I used to have some. Really? I just. Now when I look back on, I'm like, wow, that's what I actually thought, even at that age. So I'm like, okay, I've. I've been here before, somewhere before. I could just feel it in my heart.

[B]

Yeah. And that's a spiritual feeling, too, though, too. Right. Old soul is a very.

[A]

Dude. Anytime I'm around Dave Chappelle, I feel like I'm around damn near a deity.

[B]

That'S been around a lot.

[A]

Dude. Dude. And Dave uses music, too, to connect people. I don't know if you spin around him, but I'm like, that's all designed to connect people who are different and from all different walks of life. So when I'm around another soul that feels like they're older than mine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. It's humbling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I know Dave's gotten in trouble, so I'm not saying everything.

[A]

Dave ain't in no trouble. Dave ain't in no trouble.

[B]

Well, yeah, he is sort of fine. I'm just saying I do, like, when he does certain things and speaks truth to certain things, I'm like, this has, like, a powerful soul.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's, you know, it's just like you said. Look it. First of all, I'm a defender of comics comedy. I didn't realize what a. I didn't realize what a prophetic role laughter plays in keeping our world order. So the. The people who are just naturally talented at generating laughter.

[B]

Yeah. Important.

[A]

And. And also not the kind of laughter that. That's cheeseball. But it's clever. Like, it came from a place where it was just like, it was observational, it was nuanced. It was just like, oh, how'd you see that? How'd you see it? Like that, you know, they somehow turned their laughter, their formation of laughter into a puzzle that they put together right in front of you. Right.

[B]

And that's very human.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's very important.

[A]

So I am an ardent defender of comedy. So when I know. You know, you actually asked me about stand up comedy earlier, and it was actually the incident with Michael Richards that kind of scared me off from doing stand up comedy for good.

[B]

Oh. Because you tell me why. I think I know what you mean.

[A]

But I'll let you say it, though.

[B]

I was gonna say a known person making a mistake.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Is national news.

[A]

Boom. And it was like, what people don't realize about that incident. I don't think he's a racist. I really don't. I think he had a. I remember talking to George Lopez about it, like, in the moment when it happened, and I remember George explaining it to me. And George was like, yeah, ain't no racist. He just. He ran out of material. That's brevity for you. Racist. He ran out of material. And. And so it was like. That's what happened was he got heckled by some brothers upstairs. The Laugh Factory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they said the worst thing that you can say to a comic who has run out of material.

[B]

What did they say?

[A]

You not funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they kept saying it. Hey, man, I don't care what you say to me on your mic. You not funny. Whoa. That's a hard jam to get out of as a. As a stand up comedy.

[B]

And he up in how he got out of it.

[A]

Right. Because he.

[B]

But you're saying his intent was.

[A]

No, that's what happened. Before he said it. They started beefing.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

But I know they started heckling. And then he went off the Rails.

[B]

He's in Fight Flight.

[A]

That. He's in Fighter. He's in Fight or Flight.

[B]

But then he makes a mistake.

[A]

I'm not excusing what he said.

[B]

No, I know you're not.

[A]

But I'm saying that was the beginning of camera phones entering comedy stores. Nope. Before. Before then, we hadn't even seen footage. Really? No.

[B]

Remember that footage? It was grainy. It was grainy. Cnn.

[A]

It was shot on a flip phone, bro. That was like.

[B]

It looked like Night Trap, right?

[A]

It was so. It was like. That went. That was like viral before. Viral.

[B]

Yeah, it was the first one.

[A]

Right. So it was like. That's why it was such a big deal.

[B]

You were like, if you up, certainly not in that way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you could up.

[A]

I was like. I said, I know. Guaranteed I'm going to get challenged the same way.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they tried. I remember after Louis thing, and then he started doing stand up. People were leaking what he was talking about. And it can be very. A tricky place, you know, it's just like, it's, it's.

[A]

Look, once you get to superstardom level, where you're selling out stadiums, you're doing 2,000, 5,000 or even a freaking, you know, like I said, even bigger places than that. You know, if you can lock up people's phones or whatever, because your star power commands that you can do that and they will still pay. Yeah, that's an amazing privilege to live on the other side of. Most comedians, though, are still running up to the Comedy Store or whatever and, you know, they tell people to keep their phones down with it, but they're still. They've got them on them and yeah, you know, anything you say could, you know, leak out. I really respect the process so much of working on a bit in upstate New York, in Tennessee, somewhere different, different parts of the country, getting it right, getting tight.

[B]

You know what it's like, it's like dreaming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like creativity is so much like dreaming. And when you're dreaming, sometimes it's weird, sometimes it's gross, it's violent, it's strange, whatever it is. But that's, that's like. That's what a writer's room can be like. It can be strange, it can be whatever, but it's. It's because you're trying to get into like a trance where you're finding the good stuff amidst all the other bad stuff. Can I run a premise by you? I don't think I'll ever do it on stage, but I was like, it's so funny when you watch a western, you're like, isn't it crazy? They walked around with guns on their hips.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They could shoot each other. Like, we walk around with phones, we can kill anybody we want. You can take away their livelihood. And it's in the same way, when you pull your phone out of your pocket, don't you kind of feel like.

[A]

Dude, I've always said that you're actually not giving me a bit. You're giving. You're just tapping into a thought I've already had. When somebody points a phone at me and points a phone at me and I don't know them, I feel like they're holding a gun to me.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I get the same kind of sensation. Especially if you notice in public, you can't let your voice come up. So, like, let's say you. You're. You're in a, you know, a possible confrontation or whatever, and your voice starts getting elevated and you don't even realize it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look around.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

They already on you. They already.

[B]

Right, that's it.

[A]

They are. They already on you. And so it's like, for. I. I'm very sensitive to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, the possibility of that happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, even if I was gonna get into it with somebody, I'd probably lower my voice. And then chop them in the Adam's apple. Then chop them in the Adam's apple, by the way.

[B]

Okay. It bears mentioning the jackness. The jackness. That's Jack. This isn't Jack.

[A]

I don't feel like I'm.

[B]

How much of that was. Was it? This is such a me question. Do you think you were like, I gotta. I'm going forward. I want to look like a man. I want to be a man.

[A]

No, I want to be strong. When I was. When I was young, from 12 to 21, I did not touch a weight because I started to realize. And when I was 16 and 17, if I start to lift weights, I'm gonna look like my dad, and that's gonna cut off the years of this show.

[B]

Oh, you needed to stay looking like Steve.

[A]

I needed to. That's why I said that character, that archetype, physically, everything. I kept the box top fade on purpose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I said, when I'm done playing this character, I will probably never wear a box top fade again. So that's one reason why you never saw any hair changes. With Z, I really kind of felt like it got to a point where I'm like, you're Frozen in time. Your look.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna freeze you in time.

[B]

Y. And that's a way of controlling.

[A]

That's a way of controlling it. So when I. When I was done, I just did what was natural for my father.

[B]

This is what you would have looked like.

[A]

This is just what I would have looked like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But a healthy guy.

[A]

Yeah. I mean I try to stay healthy. I do.

[B]

You and you. And well, you mentioned Dave and when Dave. Remember when Dave got jacked. Now, now, now Jack. Dave is regular Dave.

[A]

He's a little regular Dave. Dave got this bodysuit now that he wears that works for him. The ones. What. What do you mean when he wears.

[B]

You mean he puts the things on?

[A]

Yeah. It's a suit. If people know it online, it's all. It's so funny too. Cuz. Cuz he'll still be smoking a cigarette while he's wearing.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

It's the funniest thing.

[B]

Wait, are you talking about those nodes you put on there?

[A]

No, not. No, there's a whole like a suit that.

[B]

That will like compress and work you out.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's. It looks like a wet suit almost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then the. It. It contracts your muscles and that's what he's doing all over and it was like hit with a couple people on his crew. They have them seen it. They have them smoking and. Well, only him. But when they have on the suit, everybody's just cracking up. Cuz it's like I'm getting a workout.

[B]

I guess that's how you do it on a bus, right? That is hilarious. Well, Jal, man, I really enjoy. I hope you can tell.

[A]

Nah, absolutely.

[B]

You're looking at a deeply satisfied and pleased person.

[A]

You know what man? I've. I've crossed paths with you a million. I try not to be a podcast whore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of people don't realize that you can pretty much be on a podcast every single day if you want to. Just talking about your life or yourself and it just gets too much. But my policy is if I feel like I have a human connection with somebody and I feel like we have a very similar background, that it's just a no brainer. Yes. And I just know it in the moment. So when you asked me, I was like. Like Pete Holmes. I auditioned for his old show. I didn't get the part, but here we are now.

[B]

That's it. I do. I realize I. I'm so touched you came. Thank you. The last thing we usually ask and I almost Forgot is can you remember the time in your life you laughed the hardest? Oh, tears down your face, Your belly hurts. Perhaps you were smoking that premium Urkel brand. Purple Urkel.

[A]

Oh, man. Speaking of which, man, I should just go ahead and gift you one.

[B]

Oh, yeah, please. Yes.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Yes. Is it indica? It's a hybrid.

[A]

It is. See, it is the purple lurk itself. Made by. Made by. It's purple. It's really special because we have a rotini pasta filter.

[B]

A rotini pasta?

[A]

Yeah. That's literally a noodle.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you smoke it through the pasta.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's al dente.

[A]

Yeah. Why? Yeah, no, you just. It. Text me after.

[B]

It'll just be good. Okay, I'll tell you afterwards.

[A]

Text me afterwards. Dog. I didn't just hand you some average.

[B]

Whatever this will be tonight.

[A]

This is like, if somebody were to just hand you a casual bottle of 1942 and be like, take that, you'd be like, really? I'm like, yep.

[B]

Yes. Thank you very, very much. Okay. I'll tell you what. It's like pasta.

[A]

Yeah, please do.

[B]

That's amazing. Thank you. No, I'll put it right here so everybody can see. So the hardest laugh. Anything comes hardest. It doesn't have to be a good story. Maybe you're on the show.

[A]

I laugh a lot, bro.

[B]

I know. I can tell you're one of those telling.

[A]

I'm just. I'm surrounded by some funny people. I laugh a lot. Okay. I'll tell you one from. From flip side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because my game show, it just. The new season just started today.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

We'll plug it and. And it's in our fourth round, I think we asked a question. We asked one question in the fourth round, Our final round with 10 possible answers, you got to pick the top five, and if you pick the top five, you get $10,000.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Very attractive young woman and. And her partner were on the show, and they made it to the final round. And I believe, if I remember the question correctly, it was, how do you know when your partner is in the mood? And all these different signs, like, oh, they light a candle, or they. They. They send you a text message. They. They. They put on lingerie. These were all the possible answers. And. And one of the. One of the answers was with a question mark, you up. A text message. You up.

[B]

For, like, a couple?

[A]

Yeah, for a couple.

[B]

Couples don't typically text a couple.

[A]

You were together? It's in the question. Yeah, together. Text message, you up. And that was her first choice.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And it was just like, I could hear people off the back of the stage just laughing. I can. From my pipe and drink my dressing room area just when I'm hosting the show, and I can hear my makeup and people laughing from that. I'm like, oh, we've gone off the rails. And I just. It was just a moment, even as a host, where I was like, you up?

[B]

First of all, how big is your house?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, where does your husband sleep?

[A]

Yeah. But I'm like, no, no, no. See, she was single.

[B]

Oh, she was single.

[A]

So that made it even worse because it was like, oh, you just told everybody. You outside.

[B]

Yeah, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's a modern woman. I guess.

[A]

You are.

[B]

I don't know what I say.

[A]

You are a modern woman. I mean, dude. I mean, even she had to kind of laugh at herself. You know that. I'm like, this is what you gonna get your first strike on. You up.

[B]

You up.

[A]

I'm like that. Let me tell you something. I'm a married man. That's not how I communicate with my lady.

[B]

Steve Harvey needs to come in and take her by the hand and be like, you need to have better standards for yourself. You know what I mean? Like, a sincere moment. You need to change your life.

[A]

It cracked up so much, and it turned out that actually she's kind of a popular woman in podcasting. I didn't know that. How popular she was at the time.

[B]

She's very popular.

[A]

And so we even found her account, and my whole support staff literally sent her a message like, thank you for being on the show. You up. We sent her a video because it was a moment.

[B]

She embraced it.

[A]

Oh, she. She embraced it. It's a. It's. I mean, look, and a game show is only as good as its contestants.

[B]

And you get some of the fun of family.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, well, we get. We get plenty of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think our best stuff is actually left on the cutting room floor, to be quite honest.

[B]

Put on the tube.

[A]

Yeah. I wish. I wish we could. You know, that's cbs. They got to do that. But I'm telling you, our outtakes.

[B]

CBS is making all kinds of mistakes.

[A]

It's just a big.

[B]

My show.

[A]

It's a big machine. You know, people don't realize how big the machine is, and you got to find the one or two people in the machine who get you.

[B]

That's right. That's good advice, man. You're the best. I really appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you, Doc.

[B]

We have the guests say, keep it crispy. It's just written down over there in case you need a prompter.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

You say, keep it crispy. It's just how we end the show.

[A]

All right. Hey, you're watching me. Jahliel White here with Pete Holmes. Keep it crispy.

[B]

That's a pro right there. That's a pro.