Kate Bowler

Summary

Podcast Summary: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes (Kate Bowler)

Episode Date: June 10, 2026
Guest: Kate Bowler
Main Theme: Joy, Suffering, and the Myths We Tell Ourselves
Notable personalities: Pete Holmes (host), Eddie Pepitone (recurring sensei of chaos/comedian energy)

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Episode Overview

This episode features author, historian, and Duke Divinity School professor Kate Bowler. The discussion, marked by quick-witted banter and authentic depth, focuses on the nature of joy (and its distinction from happiness), the cultural mythology of self-optimization, religious/paradoxical thinking, vulnerability, and why joy is both weirder and more resilient than self-help culture might let on. The show is equal parts silly, cerebral, and emotionally honest—just what You Made It Weird fans expect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Getting to Know Kate Bowler (04:21–08:00)

• Pete, Kate, and Eddie dive into Kate's Canadian-ness and her Winnipeg roots.
• They riff about being mistaken for Hallmark movie extras, the "bingo" of Hallmark plots, and the joys/perils of being a researcher.
• Kate jokes about her Enneagram type (Enneagram 2: "I'll die of empathy") and candidly discusses her experience with feelings and "mania" as bursts of energy in the creative process.

Notable Quotes:

• [04:30] Kate Bowler: “Now you have to apologize for being so Canadian.”
• [08:58] Eddie Pepitone: “Are you an unmatched person? Does how you feel in your face match?”
• [09:46] Kate Bowler: “You and I are both interested in the qualities of joy and why it feels like your birthright to pursue happiness, not in the American, but the human way.”

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2. Happiness vs. Joy & Excess as Spiritual Signal (10:11–17:00)

• They distinguish between fleeting happiness and enduring joy.
• Discussion of Christmas as a time of "excess" that exists precisely to jolt people out of winter darkness—both literally and emotionally.
• Kate’s father, a Christmas historian/encyclopedist, used his obsession with the holiday as a means to find hope in the midst of depression.
• [14:03] Kate Bowler: “Sometimes only excess can convince you of your own deep and inherent worth... It has to be more than enough sometimes for us to tip the balance.”

Notable Moments:

• Riffing about “ham silos,” “ranch hoses,” and how Christmas hoards hope and food against the bleakness of winter.
• [16:24] Kate Bowler: “Find ways other people can access your delight—happiness is brittle, joy is contagious.”

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3. The Myth of Self-Optimization & the Cult of Wellness (23:18–25:47)

• Kate critiques the $12-billion “health and wellness” industry, in which people (especially women) are encouraged to endlessly optimize, quantify, and project-manage themselves.
• The toxicity of constantly feeling you’re a “project” instead of a person.
• Pete and Kate riff on the pressure to perform gratitude, elaborate morning routines, and how consumer tech measures our sleep and worth.

Notable Quotes:

• [24:01] Pete Holmes: “You’re not a person to be loved, you’re a problem to be solved.”
• [28:03] Pete Holmes: “I do think researchers are people that Google stuff a lot. They’re out there Googling.”

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4. Breaking Down the History of ‘Manifesting’ and Positive Thinking (30:29–41:00)

• Kate explains the American origins of “everything happens for a reason,” tracing positive thinking’s roots to moments of economic inequality and the rise of urban life.
• Discussion of “manifesting” as Gen Z’s rebranded form of positive thinking; problematic for pathologizing negative emotion (making it a “disease” rather than part of honest experience).
• Kate: “We’ve tried to give it some spiritual oomph. And so now whatever you vision board, whatever you gratitude journal, then... you’re just creating spiritual realities. That’s New Thought—it’s a religion. People don’t know they’re being religious.” ([38:03])

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5. Virtue vs. Feelings: Cultivating Joy (47:26–54:00)

• Joy isn’t just good feelings—it’s a virtue, a cultivated character trait that’s both an accident and a task.
• [49:39] Kate Bowler: “Instead of wanting to be part of a culture that just wants to feel good, I want to be part of a culture that... has a couple virtues it really cares about and is trying to walk a path to it.”
• Discussion of “forgiveness of reality” (Richard Rohr’s concept) and the difficult grace of saying “yes” to what is—even in suffering.

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6. Joy in the Midst of Suffering (51:45–58:00)

• Kate shares the difference between happiness and joy during her cancer diagnosis: “There was only horror in my heart... But I do think there is this very small yes that you have to find to the life that is. And if you say yes, you can get visited with a temporary, beautiful wholeness. That’s not happiness. That’s something deeper.” ([52:51])
• Pete and Kate agree that deep joy is often neighbored by grief and risk.

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7. The Contagion of Joy, Delight, and Social Connection (72:25–77:10)

• On joy as a social virus: joy spreads, deepens, and is generous in contrast to happiness, which is brittle and easily punctured by bad moods.
• Kate describes how people with illness or losses risk becoming “exiles” in their own lives unless they let others know what delights them (“I love foreign junk food, gummy bears…”).
• [76:42] Kate Bowler: “Find ways other people can access your delight. Happiness is brittle. Joy is highly socially contagious.”

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8. Facing Suffering Without Magical Thinking (105:02–111:19)

• The prosperity gospel's promise of control is critiqued. (“I thought nothing bad would happen to me. That was the mythology I bought into.” – [105:24] Pete)
• Pete mentions Father Greg Boyle’s wisdom:
  • “God protects me from nothing, sustains me in everything.”
  • “If you’re going through hell, just don’t come out empty-handed.”
• Kate: “The suffering... wasn’t worth it. People are always surprised when I say that. Suffering is not worth it. You don’t have to say it is.”
• Pete: “Everyone wants things to be fair and they want your suffering to be in an economy of fairness.”

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9. Theological Back-and-Forth: Atonement, Christianity, and Paradox (111:19–116:45)

• Kate and Pete discuss Christian atonement theory, the paradoxes at Christianity’s heart (“Kingdom is here but not yet,” “lose your life to gain your life”).
• “Jesus didn’t die to change God’s mind about us, but to change our mind about God.” (Richard Rohr, [115:50])
• Discussion of “both/and” thinking, humility and pride, and why paradox is central to healthy spiritual life.

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10. History’s Comfort in an Age of AI Anxiety (117:24–122:18)

• Pete admits he’s been searching for hope amidst AI doom narratives; Kate (as historian) offers perspective:
  • Every technological or cultural disruption (she mentions plagues, printing press) has been met by both despair and creative flourishing.
  • “We need a louder voice than the AI Disruption, Bunker building, inevitable list… both require a deep hopefulness, not about AI, but about humanity.” – [119:16]
  • The big issue facing us is runaway generational wealth; real social well-being requires re-investing in the common good.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Kate Bowler, [14:03]: “Sometimes only excess can convince you of your own deep and inherent worth.”
• Pete Holmes, [24:01]: “You’re not a person to be loved, you’re a problem to be solved.”
• Kate Bowler, [36:19]: “We’ve tried to give it some spiritual oomph... That’s New Thought—it’s a religion. People don’t know they’re being religious.”
• Kate Bowler, [52:51]: “There was only horror in my heart... But I do think there is this very small yes that you kind of have to find to the life that is. And if you say yes, I do think there is this like mysterious thing that can happen, which is that you can get visited with like this temporary beautiful wholeness.”
• Pete Holmes, [104:19]: “We want to deserve everything… but do we really want to be people who have to deserve everything all the time? Wanting to earn every good thing has just worn me out.”
• Kate Bowler, [111:46]: “Knowing that having a richer story about how God's own humanity is teaching us something about how we need to be in a world that is saved... what needs to die, what needs to live, and what needs to go through fire and become lovelier versions of what they were.”
• Father Greg Boyle via Pete, [107:04]: “God protects me from nothing, sustains me in everything.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:30–08:00]: Introductions, Canadian-ness, research and Hallmark films
• [10:11–17:00]: Joy vs. happiness, Christmas and excess
• [23:18–25:47]: The cult of self-optimization and wellness industry critique
• [30:29–41:00]: The origins of “manifesting” and positive thinking
• [49:39–54:00]: Virtue, forgiveness of reality, and cultivating joy
• [51:45–58:00]: Joy during suffering (Kate’s cancer experience)
• [72:25–77:10]: Joy's generosity and social transmission
• [105:02–111:19]: Suffering, prosperity gospel, making meaning of loss
• [111:19–116:45]: Christianity, paradox, and atonement theory
• [117:24–122:18]: Historical perspective on AI, technology, and hope

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Joy is distinct from happiness: it often appears in adversity, is a gift more than an achievement, and is best when shared.
• The self-improvement industry can be an exhausting myth—joy isn't found in endless optimization.
• Vulnerability, paradox, and the courage to embrace reality—including all its pain—are core virtues for a resilient and joyful life.
• “Everything happens for a reason” is a comforting cliche, but often rooted in attempts to make sense of inequality and suffering.
• In an age of anxiety—be it about AI, personal instability, or cultural change—looking to history and our shared courage can provide deep hope.
• Generosity in sharing one’s delights and vulnerabilities is key to forging connection and cultivating joy.

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Memorable Closing

• [124:14] Pete Holmes: “You were a disruption. I don’t mean you were a plague, but you were this disruption. And it was really fun to be alive with you for this time, and I really appreciate it.”
• [125:34] Kate Bowler: “Keep it crispy.”

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Episode Vibe

Deeply weird, wonderfully smart, raw, hilarious, and life-affirming. If you want to challenge your thinking on joy—and laugh a lot—you’ll want to listen to this one or savor the best bits here.

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[End of summary.]

Transcript

[Pete Holmes]

Lemonade.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[Kate Bowler]

What's happening, weirdos?

[Producer or Announcer]

This is such a fun and one

[Kate Bowler]

of a kind episode. We've never had an episode like this. Kate Bowler is. What is the.

[Producer or Announcer]

What is the perfect word? I was going to say, like, so

[Kate Bowler]

impressive, brilliant, funny, and like, I don't know. You're going to hear.

[Producer or Announcer]

She is. She's ready to go. And I did most of my research by reading her book Joyful Anyway, which is incredible. Go get Joyful Anyway, is there a better book for the times we're living in that you need to read? Joyful Anyway by Kate Bowler. Check it out. It's amazing. That was the bulk of my research,

[Kate Bowler]

was I was like, I will read this book. And that's what I did.

[Producer or Announcer]

And then we talked and you'll hear time and time again, I'm just making lots and lots of mistakes, not knowing how many books she's written, not knowing things I should know. So that's the kind of episode this is.

[Kate Bowler]

You need to lean in to what it is and then you will be delighted, as I was.

[Producer or Announcer]

Because she's so funny and she doesn't. Honestly, she doesn't like Fawn or Let Me Get Away with my. Which is a really entertaining, entertaining podcast and she is brilliant and you should check her out. We're so glad that Kate Bowler is here today. What shall I plug? I am on the road.

[Kate Bowler]

If you're listening to this the day

[Producer or Announcer]

it comes out, I'm in Denver right now. I'm going to be. Where am I after that?

[Kate Bowler]

On.

[Producer or Announcer]

In LA on June 17th. That's going to be an incredible show. Sheng Wang did the last one. It was so fun. I'm going to be in San Diego.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm going to be.

[Producer or Announcer]

This is so boring. Durham, North Carolina, South Carolina. I'm going to be in Sacramento. I'm going to be in Portland, Maine. I'm going to be in Verona, New York. I'm going to be in Vancouver, San Luis Obispo, Madison, Wisconsin, Seattle, Portland. And that's it. All of Those are on peteholmes.com.

[Eddie Pepitone]

whoops.

[Kate Bowler]

Sorry.

[Producer or Announcer]

My book, which I just knocked the camera while I was reaching for this, spells to cast on your parents. It's a kid's book. It goes along with my face. So much of my work is filled with profanity. This is a kid's book. This is a book I made for my daughter. She loves it. She's a tough critic. It's a book that gives your K the power to cast spells on you. The grown up reading the book to them. So it's a really funny, silly, sleepy

[Kate Bowler]

bedtime story that not sleepy, but, you know, it like helps them wind down

[Producer or Announcer]

and also kind of sleeper teaches them how to read. So check out spells to cast on your parents. It's available for pre order right now. I did the art, which I'm very proud of, and I did. I did the words as well. I'm so glad you're here, Kate Bowler. I'm glad you're about to. You're about to hear one.

[Kate Bowler]

You're about to hear it.

[Producer or Announcer]

Get into it. You Made It Weird is brought to

[Kate Bowler]

you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers

[Producer or Announcer]

who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts

[Kate Bowler]

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[Producer or Announcer]

Plus, you can count on their great

[Kate Bowler]

customer service to help you out when you need it.

[Producer or Announcer]

So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus here and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me with Cyndi Lauper on Amazon Music. Cindy may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years, she has brought playfulness and adapt of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now only on Amazon Music included with Prime.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, we're starting now.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yes, we may.

[Kate Bowler]

Sorry.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Kate Bowler]

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Now you have to apologize for being so Canadian.

Deeply.

[Pete Holmes]

Which part?

[Kate Bowler]

You've never been.

[Pete Holmes]

And you won't care. And we can try, but you'll never care.

[Kate Bowler]

It's not Toronto, exactly. It's not Vancouver.

[Pete Holmes]

And you have played this game and I have already lost.

[Kate Bowler]

I'll even take a Winnipeg. Are you from Winnipeg?

Yes.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Are you?

[Kate Bowler]

Yes, I am.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Well, then you owe me a fresh story because I lived in Winnipeg for

[Kate Bowler]

like a month and a half.

Wait.

Shooting a movie.

A Hallmark movie?

No, but that's what everyone. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to try to be humble. I fail every time.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Whenever people say, was it a Hallmark movie?

[Kate Bowler]

Something flares up in me that says, how dare you? And every time I went through customs, I'd say, I'm here for a movie. And they'd go, a Hallmark movie?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

And I'd go, did I say a Hallmark movie?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Like, I'd be like, really mean. Like, in my mind, you're like, I

[Pete Holmes]

have the face for the dance scene.

[Kate Bowler]

I could be in a Hallmark movie. But.

[Producer or Announcer]

Right.

[Kate Bowler]

Is that what you mean?

You could be the popcorn purveyor. You could be the owner of the Evergreen Christmas Store.

Wait, you're making me like a secondary character in a Hallmark movie.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I was just gonna say I could be in a Hallmark movie, but I'd

[Producer or Announcer]

be the star of the Hallmark movie.

[Pete Holmes]

No, you can't run the cranberry farm.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm not the.

[Pete Holmes]

No, you do. No, you don't have the sincerity for it. You have the hair, but not the sincerity.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I don't think you know.

[Pete Holmes]

I know.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm just kidding.

I've seen.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Who do you think is the lead of a. Look, I don't want to put them down.

[Kate Bowler]

They're all good, hard working actors in Winnipeg, for fuck's sake.

I have. I do the Hallmark bingo every year.

What does that mean?

Like, because there are so many.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Seven.

[Kate Bowler]

Are you saying Enneagram? Seven. Yeah, because we're both fun. No, I'm an Enneagram too. I will die of empathy.

Oh, nice.

Are you okay?

And you help everybody and you secretly hate them for it. I think I picked that up in your book.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Your wonderful book, Joyful.

[Kate Bowler]

Anyway, don't buy the other one.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Whoops, I bought the wrong one. There's another Joyful. Eddie. Wait, are you aware of this?

[Kate Bowler]

Yes, there is.

No, there isn't.

[Eddie Pepitone]

There is. No, there is.

[Pete Holmes]

Unless it was written by AI after I sold the book.

[Kate Bowler]

There isn't.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I like this to be a phone

[Kate Bowler]

free place, but there is definitely another Joyful Anyway, because when I got your book.

Okay, well, they do check these sorts of things before.

Nope. Yeah, what they do is, and I'm glad we're talking about this, is when

[Eddie Pepitone]

a book deems itself to be bigger

[Kate Bowler]

than that other book. Like it might be like kind of a self published. There's Joy anyway.

Yeah, well, that's not the same thing.

There's Hallelujah Anyway by Anne lamotte. Are you mad about that?

[Pete Holmes]

No, no. She wrote that before and she deserves it.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Look, people are saying. Anyway, Anyway. This is so dumb. This is a guy on his phone. Joyful Anyway.

No.

By Julian Hartwell. Was it written after Health, Mind and Body?

[Eddie Pepitone]

First of all, how dare you drag Julian on my podcast. It came out in May 1, 2026.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, see, I told you.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Is it real?

[Kate Bowler]

No. This is how that goes.

[Eddie Pepitone]

This is what it is.

[Kate Bowler]

See, I'm A researcher.

[Pete Holmes]

I would have looked up my own book title.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, but sometimes.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I'm a historian.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Sometimes you look and you go. But it's small.

[Pete Holmes]

We win the game of the past if it's in the past.

[Kate Bowler]

I would know.

You would know. Well, then I'm. You're sorry for dragging Julian. I'm sorry for doubting you. But it is only an audiobook. So you think it's an AI book?

It just can't have existed when I wrote it. That's all I know.

Do you want to listen to a sample? The subtitle is the Hidden Truth about Happiness. No one tells you, but Kate Bowler would say happiness and joy are different.

They are.

I'm just kidding. You don't have to do that.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You don't have to do the book interview.

[Pete Holmes]

I could do, but.

[Kate Bowler]

Two mics. Thanks. Thanks. It's actually a really important distinction. Hi.

[Pete Holmes]

Hi.

[Kate Bowler]

Hi.

[Pete Holmes]

Hi.

[Kate Bowler]

I like that. Okay, good. I came up with a book title. I thought this was brilliant, but I have bouts of mania. You know what I mean?

Yes.

What is this? Is this your two look, this is your enneagram.

[Pete Holmes]

I feel concerned, but interested.

[Kate Bowler]

Mania.

[Producer or Announcer]

Not bad.

[Kate Bowler]

Mania.

[Pete Holmes]

We don't know yet.

[Kate Bowler]

Say more.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't know yet.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I don't believe you.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm not sure.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Are you an unmatched person?

[Kate Bowler]

Does how you feel in your face match?

[Eddie Pepitone]

They are. So you didn't believe me. You think my mania is like a burden to my.

[Pete Holmes]

I think I. I think I have consumed enough of your content to not. To not be sure.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh, it's a. No. It's a research.

[Pete Holmes]

You are a researcher. Me too.

[Eddie Pepitone]

So it might be okay.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, let's. Let's say more.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'll say less.

[Kate Bowler]

I'll stop introducing myself to you and.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Okay, go off that.

[Kate Bowler]

You know that I can be very lit up sometimes and then not lit up at all other times.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Hi, I'm the guest today.

[Kate Bowler]

You're doing great.

[Pete Holmes]

Your career is going well. I think you're shining.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Me? I'm shining?

[Pete Holmes]

You are shining.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Look, all I want to say is

[Kate Bowler]

I thought there was a book title called Happy for no Reason. I thought that was brilliant. Yeah, I don't think so anymore. Because you and I are both interested in the qualities of joy and, like, why it kind of. This is very leading, but why? It kind of feels like your birthright to pursue happiness. And I don't mean in the American way. I mean in the human way. We're all kind of like, that's the real me. Like it feels Clear when you're kind of happy.

That's right.

But then I was like, circumstantial happiness. Looking for it in ice cream or success or whatever is fleeting, so there must be another kind of happiness. And then I looked on Amazon, Happy for no Reason, and it made me instantly doubt it. Look, it wasn't. I don't want to put down the person who wrote Happy for no reason, and here she is getting a lot of free press. You had to schlep all the way in here to plug Joyful. Anyway, don't buy the Anne Lamott one.

[Eddie Pepitone]

In fact, buy the Ann Lamott one and return it and say, this isn't Kate. Write on every page. I prefer Joyful.

[Pete Holmes]

Anyway, my dad does this thing where he buys secondhand copies of his own book. Gets mad if he's personalized it to someone and then sometimes contacts them.

[Eddie Pepitone]

What was that last part?

[Pete Holmes]

Sometimes contacts. I mean, sometimes.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Say more. He'll reach out to the person every now and then.

[Kate Bowler]

How does he find them? First and last. He knows they're writing first and last?

Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's. Oh.

[Pete Holmes]

Sir, did you give away the World Encyclopedia of Christmas?

[Kate Bowler]

Wait, that's his book?

Yes. My dad is the world's leading expert

[Pete Holmes]

on Christmas, which is why I know so much about Hallmark movies.

[Eddie Pepitone]

What is happening right now?

[Kate Bowler]

It's real.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Your dad is the wor.

[Kate Bowler]

He's. Yeah, he is the world's authority on Christmas. Like being the world's authority on Coca Cola or something.

[Eddie Pepitone]

It's very.

[Kate Bowler]

And they are intimately related.

They are related.

Thanks for knowing that.

Tell me more.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Say more. Why am I talking? Don't let me talk. I'm just like a hoes someone left on. You need to go. What do you mean?

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I mean.

And Coke was very smart. I interrupted to sidle up with Christmas.

Yes, they were brilliant. Yes, brilliant. Excellent marketing.

[Pete Holmes]

But it was very.

[Kate Bowler]

Christmas was very poorly researched. And then my sweet, loving, very deeply

[Pete Holmes]

depressed dad in the mid-80s was like,

[Kate Bowler]

wait a minute, I'm sad.

[Pete Holmes]

I make Christmas quizzes. They make people laugh. Maybe I should stop doing Tudor history all the time and do this like the tutors.

[Kate Bowler]

The tutors?

Yeah, like in France.

So he did not.

A tutor who helps you learn.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Listen, about Christmas. I thought he.

[Kate Bowler]

He was a Christmas tutor.

[Pete Holmes]

So nice.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I did.

[Pete Holmes]

He would love to teach you.

[Kate Bowler]

He's depressed. Why do you know this?

My own father. Why would I know he was depressed?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh, he.

[Kate Bowler]

You were alive. So you didn't fix him.

I was

[Eddie Pepitone]

so having.

[Pete Holmes]

You didn't fix the most middle child Question is, I, like, stab myself in the eye now.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You couldn't quite close the deal on Dad's happiness. He had to turn to Christmas. Christmas research did what? You couldn't fix Papa.

[Pete Holmes]

It could have been better. I should have been better.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You should have been better.

[Pete Holmes]

Gosh, if I'd only tried, first of all.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Bit over Papa. You did great. It's not your job. Look, if Christmas research fixed him, that was beyond our skill to heal. Right? If that, that's the only thing that can fix you.

[Kate Bowler]

If that fixes you.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what it was about Christmas? Honestly, it was that.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, he was, he was very sad. He.

So you noticed.

Yeah.

This was a known thing.

This, like, took apart. This took apart my childhood.

[Pete Holmes]

His, like, very deep depression, really.

[Kate Bowler]

And it was, it was the. Honestly, it was the disreal. It was like a little glimmer of something inside of Christmas where it's dark, it's.

It's cold.

Nobody. It's Christmas season.

Are we talking about Christmas?

Yeah. Christmas season comes when there is, like.

Yes.

It feels like there's nothing left.

The world is depressed.

[Eddie Pepitone]

It is.

[Kate Bowler]

And it goes, don't worry. There's an old man coming.

[Pete Holmes]

No, he's coming.

[Kate Bowler]

It says too much sometimes, and this is what I think too, about, like, joy or any beautiful thing, is that sometimes only excess can convince you of, like, your own deep and inherent worth.

You mean excess of gifts?

Excess of everything. Food and love. Yeah.

Merriment.

Exactly. And it's. And it's for no reason, which is why it's so delightful.

Okay. What do you mean excess is for

no reason by definition.

Is that true?

Yes, that's what excess means.

And then I give you excessive trophies and it would be like, it's because you won the race.

Then they wouldn't be excessive.

Is that.

[Pete Holmes]

It's just how words work.

[Kate Bowler]

But it's not how people use words.

Excess is too much, which is what I'm saying is the right amount when it's too much.

But how is that tied to reason? I'm gonna die on this.

Theological truth is that it has to be more than enough sometimes for us to tip the balance.

You need to be flooded. Ranch hose. A hose of ranch.

Of ranch dressing.

Not just dressing. Not just dressing. Ranch dressing. Ranch hose.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes, but you're gonna be literal about ranch dressing. But I can't define excess.

[Kate Bowler]

No, I, I, we got there. I am there. I'm glad I pushed back because it took a minute for me to lock it in. Access by Definition. Okay. So it happens for no reason, but it is. Your dad would know. Designed to hit in the dead of winter when everybody's feeling.

Yeah.

The blues.

Yeah, exactly.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Right.

[Kate Bowler]

And we do have these, like, moments that are supposed to remind us of things. And I do. I think it being, like, the grand reminder that, like, things will be beautiful again, things will come again. And I. I think we all kind of, like, need to go through.

Right.

Cyclical feeling.

For sure.

Yeah.

In those low moments, you need to remember, well, like, all the Christmassy things. Food. It's gonna be okay.

Yeah.

Like, literally, the Earth is like, no food.

Yeah. You're all.

Yeah, we have all the food jokes on you.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Earth.

[Kate Bowler]

Look in that picturesque window.

[Pete Holmes]

We have all.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I have a ham.

[Pete Holmes]

We squeezed it out of you.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes.

And we thumb our nose at you.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Kate Bowler]

You're all dead.

[Eddie Pepitone]

We're doing fine.

[Pete Holmes]

We're hoarding. Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes. We're hoarding. We siloed all this ham.

[Pete Holmes]

We did.

[Kate Bowler]

We have a ham silo and a ranch.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. We kept it as a pet.

[Kate Bowler]

No, I dig that. I get blue every Christmas for a lot of reasons, but it helped your dad to. I know we're not interviewing your dad, but you watched your dad reanimate as he started to dive deeper into Christmas.

Yeah, it was.

This is a Hallmark movie.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, I think it is.

[Kate Bowler]

Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

You could make hundreds of dollars if you wrote this.

I could make dozens.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You could make dozens upon dozens of dollars.

[Pete Holmes]

I could.

[Eddie Pepitone]

And if it's a huge.

[Pete Holmes]

And a Canadian nickel, you'll get a

[Eddie Pepitone]

residual of a Canadian nickel.

[Pete Holmes]

I'd love. I'd love that very much.

[Kate Bowler]

Canadian nickel, which is a very useful nickel.

Yeah. Our currency's holding. Thanks.

Oh, does it.

No, it's going okay. We have Mark Carney now, though, so it's fine.

Who's that? Your prime.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Whoa. Oh, really?

[Kate Bowler]

Do you know the Prime Minister of Canada?

Yes. Everybody does. Because if you're sad, you should go on Instagram and just watch videos.

I'm sorry. If I'm sad, I should go on Instagram and watch.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's the clip. Bad advice. She doesn't know about Joy. She just told me to get on Instagram if I'm feeling. So go ahead. Sorry. Dumb. Dumb.

[Kate Bowler]

Great laugh.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Joyful. Anyway, look at the proof is in the puddle. She's joyful.

[Pete Holmes]

Abbreviating pudding. It's horrible.

[Eddie Pepitone]

She's been eating the Christmas pudding.

[Pete Holmes]

It's gross.

[Kate Bowler]

Which your father could tell us. Used to be some sort of goat

[Eddie Pepitone]

sack or something like it's all awful. It's all awful.

[Kate Bowler]

But you. I'd like to talk to your dad.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, it feels like he should be here right now. I know, it's awful.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Look, you shouldn't have dropped that. Your dad was a Christmas expert.

[Kate Bowler]

Cause I'd like to know.

Look, he wrote the World Encyclopedia of Christmas. He wrote Santa Claus a biography. He wrote Christmas in the Crosshairs.

You can't write Santa Claus a biography. To use your aggressive words. By definition,

[Pete Holmes]

I cannot. I cannot wait to be busy with you about words from now on.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Wait, that would be autobiography.

[Pete Holmes]

I was wrong.

[Kate Bowler]

You can autobiography.

[Pete Holmes]

I know. And I was just.

[Kate Bowler]

Waiting for me to put it together.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I just. There's too many. Too many times.

This is good humility. Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

You're welcome.

[Kate Bowler]

I just have, like, a PhD or something. Yeah.

Who cares?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Still a lady, let me tell you. What's your PhD in?

[Pete Holmes]

I'm taller.

[Eddie Pepitone]

What's your PhD in?

[Pete Holmes]

History.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh, well, let me give you a lesson.

[Kate Bowler]

I don't know.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm just trying to be an awful man, I guess. It's working.

[Kate Bowler]

It's working. Okay, go ahead. Not your dad. Who cares about your dad?

[Pete Holmes]

I like watching you redirect.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

You're doing great.

He finds the people that he signs the book to and what he says to them. Let's just close that loop.

He probably is like, hey, are you missing something?

Like, he's being snotty about it a little bit.

I think he only did it once with, like, a pilot that he personalized.

[Pete Holmes]

It's fine.

[Kate Bowler]

He just owns a lot of copies now of secondhand copies, which he has in a pile of resentments in his room.

Wow. And you saw your dad, the author, and said this, we gotta let this go.

[Pete Holmes]

We gotta let this go.

[Kate Bowler]

But you now have two wonderfully. How is Joyful, anyway? Selling well.

[Pete Holmes]

What is the two? What are you referring to?

[Kate Bowler]

Didn't you write another one?

I've written eight books and five are New York Times bestsellers.

Which five?

[Pete Holmes]

All the good ones. Which ones didn't make us Actually, the history ones.

[Kate Bowler]

I can't believe my research department, Katie, has failed me. Eight books?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. It just keeps happening. Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Nicely done.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

I liked where Two was going, though.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, two compliments you're gonna give to me.

One, you're a great writer.

Oh, thanks.

And you're a great reader of the book. The audiobook.

Oh, that's nice.

I'll give you a third one. The press package. That's the little living room set I made it Some man made it, I made it.

I mean, I didn't go to China and make every small thing, but did I come up with.

Did you have to bring up the awful conditions that made your press kit?

[Pete Holmes]

That's not awful conditions. It's miniaturization.

[Kate Bowler]

No, you don't know.

[Pete Holmes]

You don't know.

[Kate Bowler]

I like that face, though. The face is getting worse and worse.

I'm not even sure I love that. That was the third compliment. Your book.

Yeah.

Which isn't.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I mean, maybe it is. Maybe it worked.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, I.

[Eddie Pepitone]

We.

[Kate Bowler]

I was gonna do your podcast, so we were in touch. Yeah. So I knew who you were.

Yeah.

I didn't know you wrote eight books, but I got this thing from this eight book lady named Kate Bowler.

It's me.

And I open up the box.

C' est moi.

Say more.

C' est moi.

[Pete Holmes]

I said it's me.

[Kate Bowler]

This is French. It's fine.

C' est moi.

C' est moi.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. You'll be okay.

[Kate Bowler]

You mean with or without that knowledge? Exactly. By definition.

[Pete Holmes]

By definition.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I didn't realize I was in the presence of such a scholar.

[Kate Bowler]

What?

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, you missed the Duke professor part. Didn't.

[Kate Bowler]

No, I got.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I was like, duke.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, come on. Just Elite.

Is that an Ivy?

[Pete Holmes]

Thanks for asking. When we get insecure, we're like, it's Research One.

[Eddie Pepitone]

What does that mean? It's being looked into.

[Kate Bowler]

It means only 13 schools are technically Ivy. Oh, yeah. You can't count. Like, Stanford isn't an iv.

Wow. But people don't know that.

That's why we say we're like, we're R1.

[Pete Holmes]

We're an R1 school.

[Eddie Pepitone]

R1?

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

Research one sounds like a Star wars thing.

We could arrange that.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes.

But it's an excellent school. And you've been teaching there for how long?

20 years.

Holy.

Yeah.

And it's joyful. Anyway. A New York Times bestseller.

Yeah.

Whoops. Whoops.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I guess it did pretty well.

[Kate Bowler]

And was there another book that was, like, nipping at its toes and you're like, see ya.

[Pete Holmes]

Did you beat someone?

[Kate Bowler]

No.

[Eddie Pepitone]

No.

[Pete Holmes]

Whenever they show you the list, you're always, like, always just under a hungry, hungry caterpillar.

[Kate Bowler]

And you're like, I'll never beat you.

Is that still rocking?

Oh, it's doing so well. Yeah. It's so hungry.

It's hard. Those thick books that really. There's such a feeling of accomplishment. You turn a page and you're like, a fourth of the way through the book.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. I think knowing that you'll Always, always lose to something that you was read to you is very humbling.

[Kate Bowler]

Hungry. Hungry. Caterpillar.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, great. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm trying to not ask you those obvious. Book tour.

No, they're not book tour. The thing I really love is the argument. So I love. Because I.

[Pete Holmes]

The argument of the book is my favorite. Oh yeah. Is what I'm saying.

[Kate Bowler]

What is the argument of the book?

Well, because I study the health and wellness and blah blah, blah.

[Pete Holmes]

I study the health and I realized I said wellness.

[Kate Bowler]

Welcome to this industry.

Health and wellness.

I do.

[Producer or Announcer]

Yes.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm excited because I'm with you with the like self optimization culture.

Exactly.

Which we really are in this like real rise and grind.

Yes.

Like we can do it. We're gonna make it.

We're in a fully. There's a 12 billion dollar industry that is there mostly to make women feel like we have this urgent need to be more grateful or to have a breathing practice or to be more hydrated or. But it's taken modern self. A feeling that you are not a person to be loved.

[Pete Holmes]

You're a problem to be solved.

[Kate Bowler]

You're now a project. You don't just have like a sunrise, you have a morning routine.

Wow.

And I think all of that has really contributed to this really exhausted feeling of like urgency and. But yet we kind of know that we're in a light apocalypse. So we're not quite sure what all this urgency is adding up to, which

is that the world is ending or I need to get this breath routine down. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. I mean we have. I mean we do have a sense of like environmental fragility. We're so worried about AI. We're so worried about like the future of work. We're worried that like we have no experience between the value of what we do and our being paid for it. I mean like there's a, especially in the young, a sense that like we're just not sure what all this work is for. And yet everything you do have, you feel like you're just desperate to hold onto.

So a scarcity and a never ending. Fix me up. Yeah, fix her up.

Yeah. I think that quantified self is where we're at, where we all have our aura rings. Who's telling us that?

[Pete Holmes]

We're a little worried right now.

[Kate Bowler]

A little stressed out by.

Can I tell you something?

[Pete Holmes]

You're gonna tell me about your sleep?

[Kate Bowler]

I want to tell you something. I'm gonna interrupt this anti consumer, anti optimization tirade. I'M gonna call it what it is.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. You're on a diary. A scree.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I think it's funny to interrupt you with this tip.

[Kate Bowler]

It's a dip.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, it's worse.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm gonna say it over there, though.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm not saying it to you. I got a 90 on my slate. I will say it, too. I always. I do so many things for my sleep. And then we're going to get back to the main point.

Yeah, I have heard about your sleep, and I want.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm going to need to know more. You've talked about your sleep.

[Kate Bowler]

I do talk about my sleep.

I know you do.

And I listen to the sleep Dumb podcasts and I do it all. I got things. And two nights ago, I got a 90 when I usually get like a 77 to 82.

Did they say call an architect?

I love the tude of. Who's writing this Oura Ring copy? I'm sorry, did someone burn the barn down last night?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Like, what is this 1930s man that

[Kate Bowler]

lives in our rings?

[Pete Holmes]

Ding. A ding, ding, ding.

[Kate Bowler]

Take a look.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Sky's the limit, baby. That's the guy from the B52. It's like, why is he watching me sleep?

[Kate Bowler]

Like Santa.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yeah, back to your dad. You have the best laugh in the biz. Oh, man.

[Kate Bowler]

Anyway, I got a 90 something and I was. And it said on my dumb ring in that it did have some dumb headline. Superman's got nothing on you, baby. And then it said, what did you do differently? And I was like, wait, what did I do differently? And this is so boring. But it's almost over. I ate blueberries before bed. Then I Google it. Obviously, I go, I'm a researcher, too.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what that word means, researcher.

[Kate Bowler]

We do research.

Like Googling.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, you got it.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You are an ivory castle of dignity,

[Kate Bowler]

intelligence, and a repose.

[Pete Holmes]

Thank you.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes, thank you, repose.

[Pete Holmes]

I didn't wear this half blazer for nothing.

[Kate Bowler]

Wow.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm quite taken with you. I'm really enjoying what an idiot I am in your presence. And be honest, isn't that kind of what you want? Isn't that what all the work was for? To make High on their horse podcast host be like, oh, I'm a child. It turns out I'm a real idiot. I do think researchers are people that Google stuff a lot. They're out there Googling.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, it hurts me.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Or Gandalf with the scrolls.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're doing this. If you're not putting gloves on and a can researching.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yes, we Keep far away, obviously.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I've worked in the archives.

Our two schools, they keep the Kim too close. Anyway, blueberries have tryptophan and melatonin in them.

Oh, wow.

So I tried it again. It's over. But it worked again.

Oh, my gosh. It's almost like you could just eat blueberries then.

Well, I like what you're doing and you're kind of joking and a little bit serious. I'm going to call it 9010. 10% serious, but 90% bringing us back to the topic, which is. I am. Like, when you don't even know you've been indoctrinated into something. I've been fully indoctrinated into the self optimization mythos.

And if you ask someone if they're like, but I took a nap, and then they're like, oh, but it's so that I can rest, so that I can give more.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like, well, then why is the giving more? Why is the.

[Kate Bowler]

Like, why is there, like, a peak version that we're always doing Math. It's always math.

I agree. And I've been really excited about, like, it's. A lot of it is reverse engineered and, like, totally false.

Oh, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It's very thin. Statistical associations between small things.

[Kate Bowler]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Repackaged as an existential mystery about how to have a good life.

[Kate Bowler]

That's exactly right.

[Pete Holmes]

That makes me insane.

[Kate Bowler]

Even though the blueberry thing is, you know, there might be. Let's call it 30 valuable. There's 70% me going, look, yeah. I've controlled it. Right.

Yes, that's right.

And then I can sleep.

Yes.

And then I can be a better person, better parent.

All these things now, your best life now, even though that phrase was invented by a televangelist.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Kate Bowler]

You dropping some osteen on my pod 2004. I read. Did this all start with your best life now?

[Pete Holmes]

It did.

[Kate Bowler]

Can you trace it back?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Is that what, research?

[Pete Holmes]

Wait, is that how history works? You can trace it back? You can use. I like how this started. Where you're like, do you even know your book title? Yeah, I researched it. You're like, no, you didn't. You did. Can you look into the past and figure out where ideas came from? Yes.

[Kate Bowler]

I thought forgive and forget. I thought you just didn't care about the smaller book that was also called Joyful.

Anyway, I am.

I would.

I will always care about where ideas where, like, especially where, like, a. A cultural phrase comes from. That is my.

[Pete Holmes]

That's my wheelhouse.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah. You love that everything happens For a reason. Best life now manifesting, I can tell you.

Where did everything happens for a reason come from?

Well, that American obsession with. It came with the rise of cities and people became very rich and other people became poor and they were looking

[Pete Holmes]

desperately for explanations for why.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Get the out of here.

[Pete Holmes]

What I mean, it's a bit, of course, like an ancient, like, question is like, what. What is the relationship between my effort and what happens?

[Kate Bowler]

But like, in terms of like an American idiom, it came from economic inequality.

Wow. Which we probably have even newer phrases for that because there's so much of that going on.

Oh. Now we're just. Now we've fully rebranded. Positive thinking is manifesting. So it was like word of the year two years ago, but now if you, if you imagine positive words and say positive words, then you can create reality.

Right.

Is the theory.

And you find the.

I mean, everywhere. This is TikTok.

Oh, I thought you were gonna say abhorrent.

Oh, it's horrifying.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Ubiquitous everywhere.

[Pete Holmes]

Is that what you're asking?

[Eddie Pepitone]

No, no, no.

[Kate Bowler]

I was trying to lean towards your feeling about it.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh.

[Kate Bowler]

I, I, I wrote the first history of positive thinking.

[Pete Holmes]

So I've been following this for a long time and I cannot believe that

[Kate Bowler]

it has such durability.

[Pete Holmes]

I can't believe it got fully rebranded

[Kate Bowler]

for Gen Z. I really that blue.

They're on board with it.

They will. They are. I can't I play a game where I will only stop watching a reality

[Pete Holmes]

show the moment they say that they're

[Kate Bowler]

manifesting or that everything is happening for every reason. And why doesn't Peyton like me?

Well, that one's okay.

Yeah.

You like that one?

She'll be okay.

This is fascinating. Okay, so I, I definitely am with you feel super weird. I, I'm surprised that Gen Z is into it. And it's weird that people that are spiritual people kind of assume that I'm a manifesty person.

Yeah, you're not.

And I'm not a man.

No, I know. That's what I like about you.

You're also. So you're non. You're spiritual. Non. Manifesty.

I will spend my whole life trying

[Pete Holmes]

to take it down. I will.

[Kate Bowler]

Really?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, like, this is. I wrote the first history of it, a book called Blessed. It was like I used history and research to go back in time.

[Eddie Pepitone]

As the example of the guy who doesn't know what history is. I may be that I researched history.

[Kate Bowler]

It's where they keep all the books together.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yes. So we can burn them down eventually. That's how we do it. We start feeling so inferior. I get me and McCrums together, and we just burn it down and we go, where's your knowledge? Now, three generations later, it's me and my boys believing that dimes cause blindness. Dark Ages, 2.2.0. But we don't say 2.0. We just go dark Ages. And we think it's the first time

[Pete Holmes]

the counting has come to an end at that point. Yes.

[Eddie Pepitone]

And we don't know there was another dark Ages. I can't wait.

[Kate Bowler]

We need some history. Please, please, let's talk about modern day in. In light of history. I'm so excited about that. But. But where are we now? We're on. We're on manifesting.

Yeah.

And that you want to take it down forever. We had Joe Dispenza on the podcast.

Who?

You don't know Dr. Joe Dispenza.

You're.

[Pete Holmes]

You're dropping the last word. What is the word?

[Kate Bowler]

Dispenza.

Dispenza.

I'm surprised. No, Joe Dispenza is a. A medical doctor who is a real, like, think cure. Feel better. I'm surprised you don't know him. It's sort of. I wouldn't call it manifesting, but we talked a little bit. Although it's. It's told in the same store as manifesting, for sure. But we talked a little bit about, like, Thought Police. It has like a very, like. Yeah, don't think that.

Yeah.

You're gonna get in a car accident.

Yeah. It's called negative confession. They think that if you release negative words that you are bringing it into being.

Right. It's anxiety is praying for something you didn't want, which is like, have you heard that? Isn't that one of the worst things ever?

It's totally pathologizing negative emotion.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

It's making negative emotion the culprit of what? What's what?

Rendering it, like, pathologizing. Like, making it negative. Making it like it's a disease. Making it like negative speech is disordered

as opposed to honesty.

Accurate framing.

[Pete Holmes]

Describing reality with words.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah. So you're saying it's. If you're having. It's interesting. My example when we're talking about this is something that might not be accurate. Framing something that is just, like, toxic and not to. Well, that's a judgment, but, like, you're having some. You talk in your book about self worth. Scrapping together enough self worth to kind of like, get out the door. So we all know what it feels like to be bombarded with like negative feelings. And it. It does seem like that might reverberate into your life, not in a spiritual way, but in a. Yeah, well, I'm not going to make eye contact. I'm not going to ask for help. I'm not going to get.

Yeah.

I'm not going to assert myself or anything.

Yeah, Well, I think that's the distinction, though, is like, do you think that the mind is a spiritual engine that creates reality?

Right.

And we've now taken, like, we're probably 50 years into being a therapeutic culture, meaning that most of our words are therapy words. We don't argue, we feel, we don't. And we have.

So thanks for sharing your truth.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm one of the best laughs in the biz.

[Pete Holmes]

It, like, hurts me when you. When you.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Best in the biz. Go ahead. What?

[Pete Holmes]

It, like, hurts me when you use therapy words. It's like, because it's per. It's perfect. It's just like, it takes the objective nature of everything and then makes it a subjective.

[Kate Bowler]

Like just an I feel statement, which just makes it based on your experience

[Pete Holmes]

instead of based on reality.

[Kate Bowler]

So now we've taken that feeling. Okay, well, now I'm experiencing things. And now we've tried to give it some spiritual oomph. And so now whatever you imagine, whatever you vision board, whatever you gratitude journal, then it's as if you're just, like, creating spiritual realities. And it's really hard to convince a therapeutic generation that they're not doing it. Magical thinking, magical speaking, magical believing. But magic is a fast word we try not to use because it's like. Well, it is a form of mental magic is what we might call it. But we try really hard not to only say magic, because it will. It's like cheating the argument.

I see. It's like when you watch a movie with incredible special effects and you go, how do you do that? And they go, computers.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

It carries too much. Is that. Am I hearing you correctly?

That's right. And so.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, people who don't think of themselves as being magical, I think that's what's useful about it, though, is saying, I think you only thought that you were taking lessons from therapy, but what you're

doing is actually a religion and it comes from therapy. How this. This idea that we can make reality,

it has, like, a therapeutic base, meaning it takes feelings as being the most important of who we are.

[Pete Holmes]

It could be, you know, thought, or it could be the concrete. It could be science. It could be.

[Kate Bowler]

But instead we've taken our feelings and we've tried to imagine that it's our job as good believers to release those feelings into the universe. So in that way, we really have a whole generation of people who think that they're just being spiritual. But that is actually a religion. It's called New Thought.

[Pete Holmes]

It was developed in the late 19th century.

[Kate Bowler]

People just.

[Pete Holmes]

Just don't know that they're being actually extremely religious.

[Kate Bowler]

You say. I sometimes see those on YouTube. Someone will upload, like, the audiobook of some book from, like, 1913 or something. I might be way off on the date, but it is a guy that's like, as a man thinketh, or like a guy being like. You go out and you say to

[Pete Holmes]

the world today, today.

[Kate Bowler]

And you do not accept tomorrow, for tomorrow is not promised to the coward.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a very good radio voice. I love that slow millennial.

[Kate Bowler]

The coward does not.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Lo Mulani is like, a guy selling a book about, like. Think about your wife.

[Kate Bowler]

Your wife's beautiful hair. Think about her milky skin. She's yours. Say it.

[Pete Holmes]

Say it.

[Kate Bowler]

She's yours. I'm Dr.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Lo Mulaney.

[Pete Holmes]

I would hire you in a heartbeat to do that for my classes. That's so funny.

[Producer or Announcer]

But that's.

[Kate Bowler]

Is that where we. Is that when that starts? And is there, like, an American prosperity that's, like, booming? That, like, makes people start to.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Because.

[Kate Bowler]

Okay, sorry. I'm really trying to keep up with you. Like, billionaires. Don't get advice from billionaires because they'll tell you what they did for a million reasons, but they'll tell you what they did is why they're billionaires. And they're. They're wrong.

They're wrong.

We're talking about the same thing.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Right?

[Kate Bowler]

So people might see the world changing, and then they kind of take it personally. Are we talking about the same thing?

Yes. And this. It's. I mean, American prosperity.

[Pete Holmes]

Gospels.

[Kate Bowler]

So the belief that you can create health and wealth.

Sixth book.

[Pete Holmes]

And that was my first book. Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I go by the Hebrew counting.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I make you anti Semitic. I'm sorry. I count in my own way. But now I'm anti Semitic for implying

[Kate Bowler]

they count differently, which is a riff

[Eddie Pepitone]

loosely based on reading in the opposite direction.

[Kate Bowler]

Keep going.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Is that what I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Kate Bowler]

I can trace you back.

[Pete Holmes]

I got there. I got there.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I have a history of my mind.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, I'm actually a historian of my brain.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I can tell you how I got somewhere. Doesn't tell us where we're going.

[Pete Holmes]

It sure sounds like monologuing, but some could call it History.

[Kate Bowler]

It's the history of me. Oh, my God. And I'm just lecturing to a point.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like every. As every gen.

[Kate Bowler]

It's everyone.

[Pete Holmes]

Actually, there was a really funny little section in a book called, oh, I'll get there. But it was.

[Kate Bowler]

They worried that this new generation had such an individual sense of importance that they could only make a religion of them.

[Pete Holmes]

And they're at a description based on this interview with this lady named Sheila. So they started calling it Sheila ism.

[Kate Bowler]

She's like, I just look into my own heart.

[Pete Holmes]

And I'm like, sheila would probably do that. So this whole part of religious scholarship is like, oh, yeah, that's just Sheila ism.

[Kate Bowler]

Really?

So, yeah, your religion of me.

I'm a Sheila ism.

You're a Sheila stick.

No. You know, that's.

[Pete Holmes]

Did they sheite.

[Kate Bowler]

That's what they call them.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Shiites.

[Kate Bowler]

No, they don't.

Now we're taking.

I'm just trying to.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to trick you.

[Kate Bowler]

I like it. That's good education.

[Pete Holmes]

If you try to bait people into

[Kate Bowler]

tricks and then be like, ah, oh, yeah, it'll make you scared of history.

That's what we want to be.

[Producer or Announcer]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Summer is funny. When you're a kid, it feels like absolute freedom. But sometimes you grow up and suddenly it's like a logistics nightmare. There's travel, family visits, camps, scheduling. It can be overwhelming. And one thing I've learned that if you don't intentionally make space for yourself, summer can become something you survive instead of something you actually enjoy. And that's one of the reasons I am legitimately a huge fan of therapy. Therapy can help you better understand what you need, get clearer on your boundaries, and make decisions that actually support your wellbeing instead of just keeping Everybody else happy. BetterHelp has over 30,000 therapists that has helped more than 6 million people worldwide. They match you with a licensed therapist based on a brief questionnaire. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time. You don't even have to say yes to everything this summer, but do find support in therapy. That is real advice. It's changed my life. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Weirdo that's BetterHelp. H E L P.com Weirdo this episode

[Kate Bowler]

is brought to us by our friends

[Producer or Announcer]

at Three Day Blinds.

[Kate Bowler]

It's funny.

[Producer or Announcer]

We live in a world where our refrigerators are smart, our thermostats are smart, but too many people are still buying blinds like it's 2006 and there is a better way. Three Day Blinds is the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the US and what I love is they made the whole process ridiculously easy, streamlined and modern. Like everything else, they send a professionally trained design consultant right to your home, help you figure out what works best for your space, and give you a free no obligation quote the very same day. And if you're anything like me, that's a huge relief. Because measuring and installing blinds is exactly the kind of project that makes me have a panic attack and want to hide under my bed and regret everything that I chose. So three Day Blinds handles everything. The design, the measuring, the installation for you. Plus they have thousands of options for every style and every budget, including blackout shades which was awesome for our game room light filtering blinds, motorized blinds, and even smart blinds that work with Alexa. That's the kind of upgrade that makes your whole house feel better. And right now you can get quality window treatments that fit your budget with three day blinds by heading to three the number three day blinds.com weird for their buy one get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for free. No charge, no obligation consultation. Just head to three day blinds one last time. That's buy one get one 50% off when you head to the number 3D a y blinds.com weird. This podcast is sponsored by our friends at Casper Mattress, one of my favorite sponsors because I love sleep. We talk a lot about self help on this podcast. We talk about spirituality, we talk about routine. There's nothing that's a bigger game changer than getting a good night's rest and our friends at Casper are here to help.

[Pete Holmes]

Help.

[Producer or Announcer]

We've had a Casper mattress for years, but we just upgraded to Casper Pillows and these guys are legit comfort support quality. Casper makes reliable high quality mattresses and pillows designed for consistently comfortable sleep night after night. In fact, Consumer Reports named Casper's the One Mattress their top rated all foam mattress of 2026. They're built to last. They have options whether or not you like like firm, soft or somewhere in between. And they back everything with a hundred night risk free trial. That's a hundred nights to try it out. With more than 110,000 five star reviews. They are obviously doing something right and we can attest to that. It's also great if you have kids. They have new kids mattresses so the little weirdos in your family can sleep great too. Right now, save up to 20% on mattresses. When you go to Casper.com, that's one less time. Casper, C-A-S-P-E-R dot com. And save up to 20% on the mattress you deserve.

[Kate Bowler]

What's funny? I do want to. I want to get. I'm very excited to talk about AI and history because I take. I've never. I'm 47, so I'm right on track to start getting interested in history.

[Pete Holmes]

Your Civil War era is in front of you, Ken Burns. Can't wait for your tiny glasses.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh, my God.

[Kate Bowler]

And an artisanal coffee. And I'm just going to listen to audio of people reading letters back home.

You could do the voice, though, so.

Dear mom, it's me, Lo Mulaney.

[Pete Holmes]

No, that's 1830s.

[Kate Bowler]

You gotta go back to, like. Dear. Dear William. Dear William, I think of you on the front.

That's good.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. I could do the girl. I could do the girl.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That was excellent. I think of you on the front.

[Kate Bowler]

Imagine mailing a letter with respect to

[Producer or Announcer]

a guy on the front.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, that's hard.

It's not gonna get there.

That's where I was going.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You're the historian of my mind.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, Sheila, I do love you.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, my God.

[Pete Holmes]

Also, I'm really excited to know if any of what you're asking is on this piece of paper.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You can read it.

[Kate Bowler]

You can read your own grief.

I think you're trying to spell Kierkegaard here.

Yeah, I just wrote it phonetically.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I love that.

[Kate Bowler]

How embarrassing. Nobody knows how to spell Kierkegaard.

It's actually pronounced Kierkegaard.

Kikagor.

[Pete Holmes]

It actually is, but that's what I really.

[Kate Bowler]

Kierkegaard's an Anna. Kierkegaard is.

[Pete Holmes]

What I realized in school is it's mostly people correcting other people on pronunciations. They'll really only need to say once.

[Kate Bowler]

K, I, E, K, A, G, A, R, D. How off am I here?

Yeah, you need two A's at the end.

That's all it is.

It's.

I'm just missing an A.

It's from Denmark, so it's got a lot of A's.

And a free bicycle.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's right. I did. I took a bicycle. I went to go see his grave, actually, a couple months ago. Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Thanks for knowing that.

I didn't know that.

Thanks for knowing it.

That's how you feel.

That's what is.

Okay, so let me. For fun, there is a. There's a couple things I want to Talk about one is the phenomenon that we do have an impact. Our words have an impact.

Yeah.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Right.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, like, if I'm kind to you, we're doing it right now. We're having this effect on one another. So, like, if I'm holding certain, I'll use the low millennium virtues in my mind. So the mind has the capacity to, like, try to cling to certain things and let go of others.

Yeah, but those aren't virtues.

Yeah, that's what they would call them.

No, they wouldn't.

What do you mean?

Virtues are durable qualities that you can cultivate over time. They're not feelings.

Interesting. Virtues are quite like. It's a behavior that's been.

It's a character that you develop. It's like that's. I mean, Christian world would say, like, that's why we love the word virtue. Is it, like, carves out a place for, like, a habitual holiness.

Habitual holiness? Is that the name of one of your eight books?

[Pete Holmes]

I like how much you know about me.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Does it make you feel bad?

[Kate Bowler]

No. I mean, Christian virtues are like.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, as Christians, it's wonderful.

[Kate Bowler]

It's like, how do we know that we can rely on ourselves to be a particular kind of person? That's why virtue language is so much more, like, steady and helpful to think about than feelings language.

Oh, interesting. It's funny that I use the word

virtue because then the more you behave that way, the more you can create feelings around it. But, like, it's.

[Pete Holmes]

You.

[Kate Bowler]

It's just like a. It's a discipline.

And you don't think that discipline is just breakable through a series of unspeakable traumas?

[Pete Holmes]

Well, you. I'm sure we can. We have the ability to break almost every good part about human nature if we.

[Kate Bowler]

If we really try.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can do it.

[Pete Holmes]

I give. You give it too much.

[Kate Bowler]

But I think it's. I. I don't know. That's why I really like thinking about. Instead of wanting to be part of a culture that just wants to feel good, I want to be part of a culture that, like, has a couple virtues it really cares about and is trying to, like, walk a path to it. Like. Like mutuality. Like, just even thinking of ourselves as belonging to other people or like a virtue that really matters to me is. Is like courage is. How do we be people who expect that life requires more from us than we would. Than we wanted to give?

I love that. And we were talking about Richard Roy before we were rolling. And he talks about the first forgiveness being to reality.

That's perfect.

Have you heard that we're talking about the same thing, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

It's lovely.

Going to keep checking it.

That's good. I really like that one.

Yeah. He's like, we're obsessed about being forgiven. But how about you? You get forgiven?

Yeah.

How do you get forgiven out there?

Well, even like we were talking about at the very beginning, about like the very first thing you have to kind of like make your peace with. I forget how you put it. But I think the very first world you have to decide that you're living in is the life you actually have. And I do think that requires a certain grace that you have to give almost like to yourself and then back to the world to be like.

And this is what is forgiving reality. And then. Well, Byron, Katie has that line where she goes, you can argue with reality, but you'll only lose every time.

[Pete Holmes]

Only lose every time.

[Kate Bowler]

You'll only lose every time.

[Pete Holmes]

I really like that.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Isn't that good?

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

Well, there is both of. And then another. Yeah, another. Richard, Rory says love is learning to say yes to what is which Some people don't like. I've run into some resistance with that one just because some. There's Sometimes people are in lie in moments in their life. Like maybe when you were diagnosed, it would be hard to say yes to cancer.

Yeah.

But like you kind of do. Right.

I think the part you say yes to and this is like, this is the part I love about Joy is I do think that there's a relationship to risk.

Like Joy and risk.

Yeah. Like when you're fellows,

[Pete Holmes]

you're gonna use I. I'm gonna explain joy and you're gonna try to use as many old timey words as possible.

[Eddie Pepitone]

But not virtue.

[Pete Holmes]

No, that's right. Because you didn't know what it was.

[Eddie Pepitone]

And that's okay by definition. Clearly I'm intimidated by your intellect.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I explained Joy and you're gonna go ahead bedfellows.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Joy and risk don't.

[Pete Holmes]

And working suspenders, it's fine.

[Kate Bowler]

But I do think that when we feel how fragile our lives are, there is a moment where you just. You want to say no. You want to say no to everything because like you didn't pick it. And it's horrific and it's very rare. In my case it was. I was diagnosed with stage four cancer and we thought I would die that summer and there was only horror in my heart. There was only like a no, I don't want to do any of this. And I'm terrified. But I do think that there is a very small yes that you kind of have to find to the life that is. And if you say yes, I do think there is this like mysterious thing that can happen, which is that you can get visited with like this temporary beautiful wholeness that in a moment, in just a moment, it can say, like, it is actually so good. It's so good for you to be alive. I think that big feeling is something that I was like, wait, that's not happiness. That's something deeper.

Because you weren't happy.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I was not happy to be.

[Kate Bowler]

But you were feeling joy.

I felt weirdly joyful.

Well, first of all, fifth compliment. I think I already said it. You're a wonderful writer. I mean, you should be. Eight books. Jesus Christ.

[Pete Holmes]

Can you imagine if I wasn't? I just kept doing it.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Those four were bad.

[Kate Bowler]

Those are her learning.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's so strong.

[Eddie Pepitone]

They kept paying her to learn.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Eddie Pepitone]

She made the list.

[Pete Holmes]

She's lucky. We'll say that. She's real scrappy.

[Kate Bowler]

You're a great writer and it's evident right away. And then you talk about joy being transcendent. If I'm being honest, I started your book a little snooty. I was like, this is gonna. I was, I was suspicious.

This is gonna be a middle aged lady book maybe.

Or just honestly what you're kind of talking against, which is just like, just joy as ice cream.

[Pete Holmes]

Choose joy. Dance parties. What?

[Eddie Pepitone]

You do it too well. Is that the real you?

[Pete Holmes]

Comfortable jumpsuits.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's absolutely what I thought it was. I thought it was gonna be.

[Kate Bowler]

And look, respect to everybody making their stuff. But when there are books about like, you know, here's 10 things to smile about today.

Yeah, the smile will find you.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I mean, we're riffing, but I hate it.

[Kate Bowler]

And I'm a happy person. Like, I dance in the kitchen, I sing in the shower.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I fucking.

[Kate Bowler]

I have levity in my life and I don't like when someone's. What?

[Eddie Pepitone]

What do you got? What is it?

[Pete Holmes]

You read me so fast.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I know. Well, I'm locked in. That's weird.

[Pete Holmes]

How did you know that? That's weird. It's cause you're like, I'm levity. I'm like slightly over top of a deep and bubbling darkness.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, well, sure, yeah, but that's your thing. Bedfellas. I think. What? Oh, I'm gonna put this back to you. I think one of the reasons I would consider myself a happy and joyful is A separate thing, but a joyful person as well.

Yeah.

Is because I have a really deep and active relationship with my grief and with. With my darkness, my sadness or whatever it might be. Would you agree that that's. That's what we're talking about?

Yeah, me too. Yes. And knowing.

And risk, too. Sorry, I just want risk on that.

Yeah. And like. And. And the darkness comes from knowing that things can be taken away in a moment. And. And knowing that is something that you can't unlearn.

Yeah. Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Once.

[Kate Bowler]

And that's what happened to you.

Yeah.

And then this is what I love, what you wrote about joy being transcendent. It lifts you out of your life.

Yes.

So this is my bad book title, Happy for no reason. It's like, we're not telling. We're not asking you to be happy.

Yeah.

With what's happening. Take the difference between like and love. Like, you don't have to like your neighbor loving your neighbor.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah. I would say happiness is a ton of, like, likes. I mean, it is. It's. It'll feel like ease. It'll feel like, I like this and I like this, and my friend's gonna call me later. It will feel like accumulated luck.

Can I jump in here? It's the movie Inside out, where at the end of the day, they're looking at all the balls and most of them are yellow. And she goes, that's a good day.

Yes. And I'm like, that's happiness.

That is happiness. But her name is Joy.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Which it shouldn't be Joy. No, look, I love Inside Out.

[Producer or Announcer]

Pete Docter, I love you.

[Kate Bowler]

I love the sequel. I'm just saying, like, that is the American or the modern day mythology. My day is most, most, most likes.

They think that if you, like, kind of climb a ladder of good feelings, and then the bonus round is like, I know I'm joyful, but it's not like that at all.

And you look back on it and you go, I was joyful. Because you had so many wins.

Yes, that's right. They are wins. And that's why, I mean, for people who are lucky, they are more likely to be happy. Those people are more likely be wealthy and to have had many lovely things happen to them all at once and to have good health and, like, all the things that circumstantially make a life good. I mean, and so when people talk about, like, building a life, they aren't. They are. This is a happiness paradigm. And there's nothing wrong with happiness, but it will feel like Ease. It won't feel like joy, which is big and bright and awake. And joy is weird because it will have both, like the reward systems. It hits your dopamine. It hits like all the things that feel wonderful, but it also engages our stress system, which means that you can be in a. In an insane situation and somehow feel temporarily whole. Even if, unlike happiness, none of your

circumstantial stuff lined up and that's what you experienced. Maybe with some practice or something. Maybe it wasn't practice. I'm making it earned.

Yeah. No, nothing. I was. I. I mean, and this is, I think why like that moment in the hospital is so shocking. And it's because it highlights like the weirdly mysterious, unearned quality of joy where nothing lines up, everything has come apart. And frankly, like, I wasn't trying to be a good person. I wasn't like, I'm usually trying pretty.

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Pretty hard. I'm any grim doing it all.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm just like, I'm gonna be good. I'm gonna be kind. I'm gonna be. I was like angry, bitter, heartbroken, devastated.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then to weirdly feel bubble wrapped into this kind of surreal like. Like you're in love with the world.

Yeah.

That the. I just think people don't get how weird joy is.

Yeah. It seems like. I think you and I might use different language, but I think we have a similar philosophy, which means there's a non conceptual quality to joy and an irrational body to joy.

Yeah.

And I would say this is where we might part ways.

[Pete Holmes]

I like you're already giving me a

[Kate Bowler]

worried face, cuz, you know I'm going to crucify you.

You're going to crucify me and I won't rise again. I'll just be one of the regular guys.

[Pete Holmes]

J.

[Eddie Pepitone]

People don't.

[Pete Holmes]

Not Jesus. Joses. Yeah, he just stayed dead.

[Kate Bowler]

And Peter, my name's like Chris Viden dead.

Oh, yeah. It went badly for him.

Dead upside down.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's how we were.

[Pete Holmes]

It couldn't have been in the good, the regular. It wasn't enough. No.

[Kate Bowler]

Because we're Enneagram Fours.

[Pete Holmes]

You earned it. Oh, you're so special. Are you? I didn't know you're an enneagram 4.

[Eddie Pepitone]

This riff is for no one. You need to know Peter was crucified upside down. You need to know that the Enneagram Fours are individualists. And then you love this podcast. You're like, this is my shit. Everyone else just turned on some other.

[Kate Bowler]

They turned on smart List. That's fine.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I get it.

[Kate Bowler]

These rich.

[Eddie Pepitone]

These riffs will shoo the crowd away.

[Kate Bowler]

It's fine, though.

[Pete Holmes]

Hold on. It's gonna get insider on insider.

[Kate Bowler]

It's true.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Old Mulaney is a little bit your old Mulaney.

[Kate Bowler]

I think joy is our nature. It's what we are. Are you Christian?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Do I work at Duke Divinity School?

[Kate Bowler]

I don't know.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm gonna. Dude, what is happening with this? You have a big life.

[Kate Bowler]

I can't know everything about Duke Divinity School.

[Pete Holmes]

Professor. I teach pastors.

[Producer or Announcer]

I talked to a guy who taught

[Kate Bowler]

at Harvard, and he didn't know the Christ. Was it. That sometimes Jesus was speaking as Jesus the man, and sometimes he was speaking as the Christ.

Pete.

I'm like, I can't assume anything.

[Pete Holmes]

I know you can't say you're the most Christian, but I'm the most. That you can't be more.

[Kate Bowler]

More Christian.

[Pete Holmes]

We're in the one. I'm in the 100 category.

[Kate Bowler]

You're a hundred percent dyed in the wool. Just can't even be more Christian.

[Pete Holmes]

It's the worst.

[Kate Bowler]

Worst.

[Pete Holmes]

It's the best. It just keeps happening. This is what goes right under that.

[Kate Bowler]

Okay, let's write it on.

Yeah. Just put a little Christos. Yeah.

Across.

Yeah. And then I'll.

[Pete Holmes]

And I'll sing, But I'll sing worship songs to sing out. What was that?

[Eddie Pepitone]

That was all of them.

[Pete Holmes]

I was making in the morning make

[Kate Bowler]

my coughing and the load it takes my hand stop and then the girls go and the coffee tastes so bitter Pour the sugar in like sand and the water is the coffee and the Lord is my light and I put the butter on my toast and I use a holy light knife Life, I did.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You're a fucking.

[Pete Holmes]

I used to play at weddings. I played the cello, and I feel like I've heard 1000 versions.

[Kate Bowler]

They're all that because my favorite one was.

[Pete Holmes]

I was.

[Kate Bowler]

And it was so great to have

[Pete Holmes]

a cello just to, like, slowly put my head behind. But the bride and groom came up

[Kate Bowler]

to the front and then. And they, like, linked mic arms, and they're like, tomorrow morning when you wake

[Pete Holmes]

up and the sun will not appear. And then together they were like,

[Eddie Pepitone]

I will be here.

[Pete Holmes]

It was so powerful, and it was just, like, light tears coming down my face. It was like.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Well, you loved it.

[Pete Holmes]

I was like, I need more than $100 an hour for this.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh, because you hated it.

[Kate Bowler]

It was. It was. It was. It was. I've never seen the bride and groom sing vows. I've Never seen it again it's the only time those were their vows that was their promise.

When the moment is a chilly one.

[Pete Holmes]

Are you listening, guys?

[Kate Bowler]

And you floatin in the moat hammock

[Eddie Pepitone]

crowd when the shiver start to hate

[Kate Bowler]

you I will be your coat

[Eddie Pepitone]

cello. You're like.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, I just did Pachelbel's cannon over and over again. Again. Just like, hoping it would come back.

[Kate Bowler]

Nice.

Thanks, but.

Okay. I'm gonna spend the rest of our time together trying to figure out what flavor Christian you are, because that riff

[Eddie Pepitone]

sort of makes you feel more on. I don't want to make it about

[Kate Bowler]

sides, but let's make it a bento box. Everybody's part of the lunch.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You might be.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, Richard talks about being on the edges. Are you?

Yeah.

Do you feel that way? Right.

Well, I. Yeah. I mean, I grew up Mennonite, and Mennonites are inherently misunderstood.

Everyone thinks they're Amish farm workers who

just build flat pack furniture really quickly.

Nice.

Yeah, we're handy. If you have, like, a. A cheese wheel, I can roll it

[Pete Holmes]

down a hill for you.

[Kate Bowler]

If so, you grew up Mennonite, but.

[Producer or Announcer]

But I do. I'm going to push playfully back at

[Kate Bowler]

your premise that the professor of divinity at Duke would be a Christian.

That's ridiculous.

Really?

Yeah. There's only a few divinity schools in the country, and we mostly teach Christian theology.

[Pete Holmes]

Otherwise, we wouldn't be called a divinity school.

[Kate Bowler]

I guess I'm misunderstanding. Like, it's the divinity school. It's like a separate one.

[Pete Holmes]

But go ahead, push back.

[Kate Bowler]

No, no, no. I'm glad I did. Now I understand. Because, like. But the Harvard Divinity School professor is also a Christian. These are, like, Christian.

Well, Harvard is one of the only schools that also ordains, like, secular and humanist chaplains. But that's not very common. That's, like, distinct for Harvard.

Okay.

[Eddie Pepitone]

All right.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm learning a lot, man. This is a movie I haven't seen

before or are starring in. Because you're busy starring as popcorn purveyor number three.

Because I can own the cranberry.

But bog, that's exactly what you can't do.

[Pete Holmes]

You don't have the sincerity to run a cranberry. Barg. Barg Bark.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I like that. It was bark bark. It softened the bark bark. Which makes me think you and I are just clowning. But there are moments where someone really is admonishing someone, and they say a word wrong, and I've never seen straight.

[Pete Holmes]

They're like, you would never serve that cat.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's why you can't run the bar. And then he storms out and everyone goes. It's real tense. And then they go, did he say barg? And everyone laughs.

[Kate Bowler]

That's the gift of comedy. So you're not a Mennonite anymore?

Yeah, I'm a Mennonite.

You're still a Mennonite?

Yeah.

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you. Do you want me to just explain it, or you want to just free associate for a while?

[Kate Bowler]

I'll just guess.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. I had a feeling that this is. That you would prefer a guessing game where you don't want to learn.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I look at life, like, guessing.

[Pete Holmes]

You're like, no, no, no. Yeah.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You're like, do you wear glasses?

[Pete Holmes]

This is the fastest way to know somebody is not ask them, but just randomly associate while you sleep and let them correct you. Yeah. And then free associate with whatever they say.

[Kate Bowler]

It's actually more like Battleship.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm trying to get the Mennonite, but

[Pete Holmes]

it's a D2 old one. You only want this much information.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's right. And it's only my turn.

[Pete Holmes]

That's exactly what you want.

[Eddie Pepitone]

B12, good vitamin.

[Kate Bowler]

You. Well, yeah, I guess I didn't want to burden you with telling me what a Mennonite, a modern Mennonite is.

I, I. Well, it just will be like. My name is Kay Bowler. I am a professor of history at

[Pete Holmes]

a divinity school where we teach Christian pastors.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, we teach all kinds of different denominations.

I wrote a book about prosperity gospel. It's my first one.

It was my first one. You can't engineer joy. I have been very sad in my life and just going through there. I've been very sad in my life because I almost died of cancer.

Oh. That's where we were, by the way. We were talking about our definitions of joy, and I asked you if you were a Christian.

Yeah.

And I would say using, and that made me laugh. Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Because I worried about your research.

[Kate Bowler]

I know. Lack of. Come on, we're here to talk about joyful. Anyway, I could either research the book or you. I made my choice and I listened

[Eddie Pepitone]

to the wrong Joyful.

[Kate Bowler]

Anyway.

Okay.

Joy being that your nature.

Yeah.

What. What word would you use there? Would it be your soul? Like the, the nature of your soul?

I think that we, like, in our souls, have a natural capacity for joy. And I think that we, like, long for it.

But aren't we in that sentence saying, like, the soul is changing, it has a capacity for joy?

Well, we have a. I mean, I think we're built for it. And, like, I think we Know what we have the capacity for, because, I mean, it's like. It's like plastic or crystal. Like it. It. That's how we know something's transcendent. Like it rings through us. And I think joy is one of those things that like, everybody has an innate ability to be joyful. But it's also, like Karl Barth said, joy is a. It's a gift, but it's also a task, meaning something we have and we can get, but we can also, like, cultivate that quality. We can be someone who's more and more likely to be joyful.

Oh, interesting. The language I would use. And I'm only. Because I think you're brilliant and I'd love to hear your response. I think we reveal it, we don't cultivate it so much as we get out of our own way. And that never changing quality of what we might call our soul, soul, bark, barg, or awareness, is free of conflict. It's clear, it's spacious, it's wide open, it's made of a yes. It has a yes quality to it.

I love all of that.

So we brush it away. So when you achieve something, when you do something, you get a brief taste of. This is Rupert Spira. He goes. The cessation of a desire. Like, I want this drink. I get it. I drink it ever so briefly. I get like my mind no longer seeking or resisting anything, just kind of stands exposed for a moment. He would say, you taste your true nature in that moment. You call it happiness, you could call it joy. So when I heard you talk about joy being like, transcendent.

Yeah. That sounds. That ringing feeling, that sense that we can be kind of. It reminds us that we are. It gives us a strange sense of being part of everything and yet somehow belonging to ourselves.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is like a homecoming. It's like.

But transcendence is funny that way because, like. Because it hits us. It reminds us also. It is a returning to ourselves, but it's also. It makes us feel eternal. And so I just think it reminds us in that way of like our. I guess, like the divine part of our nature. I don't think we would feel that way otherwise.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yes.

[Kate Bowler]

And it's funny because I would. I would say those times when we talk about being eternal, this is also. Rupert, he talked about eternal doesn't mean extending forever in time. It means outside of time.

Yeah.

So it is. It is something that we experience a lot. You might think of it as like tuning out, but really I think you're tuning into what you actually are. But your mind looks back on that experience and goes, that was not nothing. It doesn't know what to do with it. So it just goes like, it's non objective and it's non conceptual. So it doesn't. Doesn't prioritize it. But so much, so much of those diagnosis moments where you feel this bubble wrap. What did you say? Bubble wrap? Yeah, it's. It's trans rational. It's completely. It's even irrational. Yeah, but it's trans rational is better. It's outside of that category. But you've had those experiences and that's what we're talking about.

And I do think, I mean one thing that's not outside of ourselves, so there's a cousin to join and that's bliss. Bliss has a self erasing quality. It's like. I mean, that's why people, when they're on hallucinogenics or whatever, they might talk about bliss. And that's not joy. Joy is actually like embodied. It will make you. It will light you up. And this is why, like, delight is such a key thing. It's so tailored to your weirdness. Like for me, it's absurdity. I love world's largest object. I have visited hundreds of world's largest ball of twine. World's largest dehydrated bear. Legs. You can wear the legs.

For an extra 50. You can wear them. What did he just say?

[Eddie Pepitone]

You heard me. All you see is the ember of this cigarette.

[Kate Bowler]

For an extra 75.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Don't finish that. Oh, no. What are you allowed to do for 75?

[Kate Bowler]

Leave.

[Pete Holmes]

Leave.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Leave. Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

You saw dehydrated bear. Okay, Keep going though. So you love absurdity. You love a mystery spot.

Delight is like, will carve out a certain place in you that it won't for other people. Like for my dad, who believes that air conditioning is God's promise that we never have to go outside.

I remember that. He also zooms with your son every day.

Yeah, he does.

What the. That's when I realized your book was science fiction.

[Pete Holmes]

Like that they're best friends. They are. It's really cute.

[Kate Bowler]

That's unbearably adorable.

Yeah, they mostly talk as far as I can tell. They're like really into whatever Winston Churchill

[Pete Holmes]

might have been feeling.

[Kate Bowler]

How old is your son?

He's 12. He's in a very.

Is into Winnie.

[Pete Holmes]

He's in a very dreamy place right now. He's like, that sounds amazing.

[Kate Bowler]

We're building, you know, go karts and

just talking about and you have your dad being.

[Pete Holmes]

Just feeding the fires of historical insanity.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes. And wearing, like, those things that hold up your socks. It's just a different.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Teaching a young boy about zeppelins.

[Kate Bowler]

See, I'm demonstrating applied learning, partial credit.

[Pete Holmes]

He does know a lot about zeppelins.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yes, I remember.

[Kate Bowler]

Okay. Are you saying that delight makes us more. If joy is an accident, practicing delight makes us more and more susceptible.

There's, I think, three things we can look for as kind of like the edges of joy. And one of them is delight. Like, be someone. And that's where some of that. Yes. Like some of that agency comes in, is like, can you be someone who says yes to delight? There are people who do not want to be delighted.

Yeah.

And we have met them all the time.

Yeah. It's improper.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I thought you said Tim proper.

[Pete Holmes]

Like a guy that you met named Tim. I was like, tim's the worst and refuses to be delighted. Tim proper.

[Kate Bowler]

He's a rapper proper. He's proper. Tim proper. But it is very. I am pleased to say everybody in my day to day is an authentic unlocked person, you know, like an unlocked iPhone. Like, they don't have the restrictions on. And every once in a while, I meet somebody where I'm like, oh, you don't even know how you feel about things. You don't know your opinion. You don't know what you like. Like, you'd rather die. A lot of them are twos. They'd rather serve you than. Look, take a look at what they're actually excited about.

I realized too, like, I mean, especially when you've got a problem that people find very difficult to relate to, that it can be increasingly easy to be that person who gets walled off from delight. I made a weird rule when I had cancer that, like, I would just find a couple things that people could, like when they wanted to be loving toward me, that.

[Pete Holmes]

That.

[Kate Bowler]

That I was like, yep, these things officially delight me. And one was, I was like, I just love. And I just picked, like, foreign junk food and gummy bears. I got like a thousand pounds of gummy bears. I hate gummy bears, it turns out.

[Pete Holmes]

But people loved knowing what you had to figure out.

[Kate Bowler]

You didn't like gummy bears?

I think about the 20th pack, I was like, I think I've hit my gelatin limit. Like, is this all come from horses?

[Eddie Pepitone]

From.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah. Anyway, I'm with you.

Can I. We're gonna come back to delight and the things that delight you. That's what this finger means. There's something that I made up. It's called the Kimlin scale. This is almost over 1 out of 10. And a 10 out of 10 is something that you ate or drank that tasted exactly how you thought it would taste.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Red Gatorade is a 10 on the Kimlin scale. Gummy bears are a two.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

A two.

Yeah. That's a really good argument, right? Yeah, it's a good argument.

[Producer or Announcer]

You put 1 8.

[Kate Bowler]

I remember the first time I ate one. I'm like, this is what all the buzz is about.

[Eddie Pepitone]

The idea of cherry went walking through a rubber factory.

[Kate Bowler]

Two.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's generous, too.

[Kate Bowler]

I totally agree.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Right?

[Kate Bowler]

An Oreo is 10.

Yeah.

Even an apple. I think an apple is like, maybe a nine.

Yeah.

Keep going.

Unless it's a red delicious. Yeah.

I also love Japanese junk food.

I think finding a weird, very cheap way to be for other people to participate in, and that's just happening.

It's very generous, by the way. Well, what you did was very generous.

I wanted to find a thing I made. Like, I started making gingerbread competitions where I would build a megachurch every year that people could help choose.

[Pete Holmes]

I did a lot of Lakewood Church, which has its own exits in Texas.

[Kate Bowler]

What do you mean it has its own exits?

[Pete Holmes]

The.

[Kate Bowler]

It's a mega church that's so large,

[Pete Holmes]

it has its own dedicated highway exit exit. So in my gingerbread world, it got its own highway exit, and it had its own highway.

[Eddie Pepitone]

If you hit the M and M, you went too far.

[Kate Bowler]

That is.

[Eddie Pepitone]

At what point does a mega church

[Kate Bowler]

just go, we're the Vatican now. We're the American Vatican. I can't imagine the power of being the pastor of a church that has its own exit and how you have that in every argument you're in. Like writing you a ticket. It like, oh, really? What exit do you take to get to work?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh, just Beverly.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, that's interesting. My exit's called the name of where I work. So maybe crumple that ticket up. That's a lot of power. It is a little too much. I'm just kidding. Just throwing some shade. I don't even know what that is. Keep going. So.

But find ways that other people can access your delight, and then you get to. Because. And that's the other thing about happiness. Happiness is very brittle, but joy is actually highly socially contagious.

I love that.

Which is, like. Which just.

What is happening? You said it's.

It's. It's very brittle. Like, if, like, one bad mood, it just falls apart. And I think that's why our Good vibes. Culture is actually not very generous. It's always trying to police other people's bad moods. And I think it's because happiness is just so brittle.

I love that. Look, you're a professor at Duke. It's a divinity school. You have a PhD. You wrote eight books. Five of them were good. Good. I respect you. It's not gender. It's a. It's a. It's a lifestyle.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I researched you more than most guests. It's not disrespect. It's my life. If you saw my life.

[Pete Holmes]

You wonder if I don't care. I don't care about you as much as I don't care about other people. In fact, I cared about you slightly more. I like this argument.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I walk in a room going like, I think there's cookies in here. And then I. I see the sheen of your sword that you deliberately dance in the moonlight. And I'm like, what's that? The guest. And then you go. And all my clothes fall off except my underwear.

[Kate Bowler]

Like, you're so good.

[Eddie Pepitone]

It's not full nudity. It's just like a little shade.

[Kate Bowler]

Tasteful.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yeah, it's tasteful.

[Kate Bowler]

It's tasteful.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You're 100%. I mean, let's keep it.

[Kate Bowler]

Let's keep it tasteful or you turn into a leaf. Listen, you're a samurai and an assassin

[Eddie Pepitone]

should put it on your business cards.

[Kate Bowler]

Why? Because I need ownership of your success.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's why. Just trying to like, call myself out before you can. Is it because I need ownership of your success? Yes. So I can somehow be associated with you. So people can say, who said to put samurai on your business? Garden? You like Pete Holmes. And they'll go, well, he must be brilliant. Yes. I'm using you to bolster me. What a nightmare for me, I mean, for you to be with me.

[Kate Bowler]

Never had one like this. I love it. I feel so alive.

[Pete Holmes]

So very. So very alert.

[Eddie Pepitone]

So very alert.

[Pete Holmes]

Is this what fear feels like? Is it joy?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Is joy and fear confusion? Are they bedfellows?

[Kate Bowler]

Maybe.

[Producer or Announcer]

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[Kate Bowler]

What were we saying, though? We're talking about. Oh, I'm really moved by what you're

[Producer or Announcer]

saying about the generosity.

[Kate Bowler]

So happy. Being so brittle.

Yeah.

[Producer or Announcer]

Brilliant.

[Kate Bowler]

But also, like, the vulnerability and the love of telling other people what you like. And especially men that I grew up with just didn't do that.

Yeah.

And, like, look, I'm not dragging my dad, but, like, we would give him a gift, and he always said just exactly what I wanted, which is like.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Which was. It's funny. On one hand. It's very funny on the other hand. I remember being a kid being like, what do you want?

[Pete Holmes]

He's trolling everything you do, bro.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Before that was a term.

[Kate Bowler]

That's so funny.

Me and my brother have talked a lot about. And I love my dad very much, but we talked a lot, lot about that. Where I actually think my father's generation thought being given a gift.

Yeah.

Was like, a slight somehow. It's like you thought. You thought you knew something I needed

[Producer or Announcer]

that I didn't have.

[Kate Bowler]

So it was like. It was like you.

[Eddie Pepitone]

So my dad would open it and go, you. I didn't want this. I'm fine.

[Kate Bowler]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Kate Bowler]

So there's something beautiful. And the. Again, I love my dad. Dad. The opposite of that is being very generous and saying, I like gummy bears or I liked gummy bears.

Yeah. I think there's. There's something about. I mean, any experience that seems to, like, put you behind a locked door, it makes you. I mean, illness, divorce, like, just major, difficult life transitions. It's like it exiles you to another planet. And people are like, well, now I don't know how to get there.

Right.

And. But you move. Moved. So.

Right.

I live here where we lived out.

So the cul de sac is going

strong, and we're all still having a good time. So if you move, you didn't mean to. I think there's just something about giving people back. A sense of your, like, accessibility. You're like, actually, like, notes. Windows are still open. All the doors are unlocked.

A foothold, like.

Yeah.

That's why I like having a group that watches. I actually am thinking about a specific group. We still watch Lost together. And how sweet that was.

That's really.

And how it was so much more than the show and they just wanted to be together.

[Pete Holmes]

They did in the end.

[Kate Bowler]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

All of you also.

[Kate Bowler]

I really appreciate your empathy there. Because when I got divorced, I remember really feeling exiled and I was like, what the. And I was in a non.

Yeah. Meaning non sanctimonious group. I imagine.

That's what I was trying to say. Thank you.

[Producer or Announcer]

It wasn't religion.

[Kate Bowler]

It was just like I'm in a group of people that have also maybe been divorced. But like people treat it like a plague. And I have to imagine diagnoses are the same. It's like they thought they could catch divorce from me.

Yeah.

And so the married people didn't want me.

[Producer or Announcer]

And then the single people. I don't know what they wanted.

[Kate Bowler]

Cocaine.

[Pete Holmes]

For you to just be young again.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, tell. Are we. Are we having the same conversation? Like that can. So the bridge that you build is saying, hey, here are the things that delight me.

Yeah. And I think, like, you want to be able to build that bridge of maybe like little sparks for joy with someone else. And I. I do think it's hard for some people to find it even in themselves. Like, if you're like a Mennonite, Christmas is a great example of how you can take a premise like I'd love to give a gift and then make it into a set of very difficult to negotiate transactions where your mother in law takes out a big thing of tube socks and it's like your present was $2 less. Less. So you get a tube saw. Cam, Cam, can you. Can you give her one of your.

Evening it out.

Evening, everybody.

[Pete Holmes]

Because Christmas spreadsheet is about fairness. There is a spreadsheet, but the feeling like Mennonite Christmas is you get some tube socks, you get some tube socks. And the idea that there's standard issue

[Kate Bowler]

gifts I think is a good metaphor for like, there's no standard issue.

[Pete Holmes]

Joy.

[Kate Bowler]

You're not going to be able to

[Pete Holmes]

then look at someone else and be

[Kate Bowler]

like, I love man cartoon.

[Pete Holmes]

I should definitely live. I would love them as well. That was happening.

[Kate Bowler]

It's Batman.

[Pete Holmes]

It's good, it's good, it's good.

[Kate Bowler]

You're a man who's conversant in culture.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm picking up all the cues.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm not. Did you say J'? Accuse?

I'm picking up all the cues.

[Pete Holmes]

You speak French now. Oh, wait, you're bilingual. Wow.

[Kate Bowler]

What did you say earlier?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Ami.

[Kate Bowler]

J' az.

[Pete Holmes]

Mis. C' est moi.

[Eddie Pepitone]

C' est moi.

[Producer or Announcer]

That's a Richard Rohr quote.

[Kate Bowler]

You should fucking love this shit.

Humbly and proudly return what you've been given. That's beautiful.

He says it's the meaning of life to Humbly and proudly. And there's a paradox in there, and that's right up your alley.

I love paradox.

[Eddie Pepitone]

People think, I know in my two

[Pete Holmes]

things are true at the same time, but let's not talk about how. And then they just go weird.

[Kate Bowler]

Two things are true at the same time.

It's magic and computers. Paradox. Yeah, it's a word we use to skip over the topic.

That's right.

What is it really?

It's two truths that when you put them close together, it's like they stand each other up. Like they. They make each. They highlight both the truth of it, but also the mystery between them. And like. Like humbly and proudly, like the closer you stack them, the more it exaggerates. Like the beauty that's only found in

the contradiction and the space in between.

You have to have a little mystery.

And they only. They define each other, too. Humble divines, proud. Yeah, and it's both.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

And it's both.

Both and is another big. I know you know this.

[Pete Holmes]

Both.

[Kate Bowler]

And what's that?

[Pete Holmes]

Both and both and.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Comfortable jumpsuit suits. What are we saying right now?

[Kate Bowler]

Richard loves both end. Yes, but that's. But that's dead and alive. Human and God.

Well, I mean, this is very both. And this is why Christianity is very

[Pete Holmes]

neurologically stressful, is it's full of paradox that we don't want to be full of paradox. Kingdom of God is here, but not yet. I have to. If I want my life, I have to give it away. I mean, just God, pick a lane. Just pick one and I'll do that.

[Kate Bowler]

But God's like, no, sorry.

Sorry, bro.

Sorry.

And this is the popular one, bro. I. I mean, Islam is smoking us. I'm pretty sure, numbers wise. You should know this.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't think so.

[Kate Bowler]

Really?

No, I think we're Is. Is we're not that far away from each other. Oh, wow.

And then there's the Mormons.

Oh, man. They'll do it.

[Eddie Pepitone]

They're going for it.

[Pete Holmes]

They'll get it done.

[Eddie Pepitone]

They're going for it.

[Kate Bowler]

Talk about no disrespect to the lds. They got good marketing.

Yeah.

Family marketing.

It went a lot better than when

[Pete Holmes]

Jehovah's Witnesses were like, we're just jw.org don't. We are anymore.

[Kate Bowler]

Nice try. Nice try.

[Eddie Pepitone]

We have our own newspaper.

[Kate Bowler]

Nice try.

[Pete Holmes]

We had some really sweet JWs that came to our house for. For 40 years and gave my dad a pamphlet and just never brought anything up.

[Kate Bowler]

And I was like, guys, you need

[Pete Holmes]

to want it more.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Jerry answered the door for 40 years.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, LDS wouldn't have let.

Just ask them.

They wouldn't have let that slip.

No, they wouldn't.

Burning in the bosom. You've heard of Jesus. Did you know there's more to the story? It sells itself.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm not even Mormon.

[Pete Holmes]

No, it's true. Speech to the missionaries. Yeah. I always want a sequel. I wouldn't want a sequel.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm sorry.

[Producer or Announcer]

Avatar.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Way of water.

[Pete Holmes]

Exactly.

[Kate Bowler]

Exactly. Twilight, then new moon.

[Pete Holmes]

You think I didn't want Jacob to come and be part of that story?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Oh, okay. Sorry. But that's how we feel about Jacob.

[Kate Bowler]

I just started watching drama with Pattinson because I have kids, so I have to watch movies as they're intended, in one hour chunks. He's a babe. That's all.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's all I wanted to say. You brought up Twilight.

[Kate Bowler]

What a babe.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, my gosh. When I was writing my dissertation, I was.

[Eddie Pepitone]

We get it.

[Pete Holmes]

So sad.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Wait, what?

[Pete Holmes]

I was. I was so sad. I think I was so bored. And I think I was like, is

[Kate Bowler]

this what adulthood is?

[Pete Holmes]

And I started going to see Twilight, the movie, like, during the day for you. And then the custodian came in, was

[Kate Bowler]

just like, ma', am, like, can I clean the theater?

[Pete Holmes]

And I was like, I'm watching. I'm busy right now.

[Kate Bowler]

Wait, during the movie, I was the

only one in the theater.

Full price ticket. I'm sorry.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Where do you have to be?

[Pete Holmes]

It was what?

[Kate Bowler]

It was.

[Pete Holmes]

The taste of shame.

[Kate Bowler]

I hate that. For you, that's another therapy kind of thing.

I'll take it. It makes me feel good.

Really? Okay, we're weird.

[Producer or Announcer]

You're dropping some real wisdom.

[Kate Bowler]

And I'm feeling, just speaking a light burden that I know that there are just like amazing corridors to just lead you down. And you'll kind of go, you're a good guest, so you'll go wherever. But, like, when you talked about how brittle happiness is, I'm like, that's why this is a good podcast. And thank you. Because that's valuable.

Thanks.

And the difference, I mean, do you have anything more like that?

[Eddie Pepitone]

I'm just kidding.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you like a whole book?

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah. Joyful. Anyway, don't get the wrong.

You know what I. One thing I thought was kind of interesting and weird about Joy, too is

[Pete Holmes]

CS Lewis calls it a slide, a stab of longing. Like, you know, you've been joyful if you feel like you've been. Been stabbed. And that kind of made me laugh because like that slow accumulated thing of

[Kate Bowler]

everything going your way with happiness.

[Pete Holmes]

I think knowing for people who are

[Kate Bowler]

like experiencing despair or going through just like long seasons where things are not going their way.

Yeah.

Knowing that it can pop up maybe

[Pete Holmes]

hopefully less like a stab, I think

[Kate Bowler]

is randomly is really refreshing because it's not math. Like you don't have to deserve it. You don't have to be. Be in a wonderful frame of mind. You can just like. But you. But you have to imagine that you are someone who even could be surprised. And so weirdly, some of the joy killers are not sadness and they're not, you know, despair. Weirdly, it's. It's actually like routine and efficiency and frankly, much of what AI and this new world will require of us will make us less and less likely to

be joyful because we'll have less purpose. And what would that.

Not about purpose, but like efficiency and optimization. And feeling like everything you do is predictable will keep you head down unsurprisable.

Wow, Yikes. A doodle doo. You're so awesome. Sometimes I know my daughter and I say yakkadoodle do cute. Which I think is really fun. And then it sometimes. See, I'm just keeping this in a part I can understand. What you said was very deep and interesting stab. But so AI the more predictable life is, the more streamlined things are, the more unconscious we become and the more. Well, don't let me put words in your mouth, but help me understand.

Speaking of unconscious, like, I guess if we think of joy as like that kind of awakeness that startles you alive again, then yeah, I would say more conscious. The thing I don't like about that language though sometimes is that we get so neo Buddhist in our language that everyone just ends up saying the same thing over and over again.

[Pete Holmes]

I hear that celebrity interview.

[Kate Bowler]

They're like, I feel so awake right now. You're like, I don't know what that means for you anymore, right. Other than that you're having a really good red carpet.

[Pete Holmes]

Do they say that all the time?

[Kate Bowler]

I feel really awake right now.

Yeah, I could do do okay a lot there. I'm kind of stuck on how yukadoodle do that is. But where. Where were you?

I guess also because like stuff that focuses just on the present, like, oh, I just need to be really conscious. I'll just conscious living. Everything I do will just be intentional. I think that gets us right back to Another different, like, homework paradigm. I just really need. And now I'm. Well, I think everyone is moving away from practice and just like, I am a job now.

[Pete Holmes]

My job is awareness.

[Kate Bowler]

And I think what's kind of nice about joy is like, it actually lets you kind of float from the past to the present to the future. Like, you don't have to always like, be hyper in the present. Like, if you're in a long, terrible season, there's. It's an, It's a nice thing to look back into your own past and look for like, little breadcrumbs of times where like, you couldn't have. Have you didn't. You didn't expect something to happen and then look like the kid you couldn't have. It turns out there was, you know, I, I love hearing people's surprise at like, at like loves. They didn't expect people that. And so I think being able to look in your past for reminders of joy is just like another beautiful way of saying, like, look, the present doesn't have to be everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not to be this, but that reminiscing happens in the same wakeful presence that everything happens in.

I really hate it when people say that.

What do you mean?

They always obsess about, like, I always

[Pete Holmes]

am sitting next to like some kind of neuroscientist.

[Kate Bowler]

It's always like, and you know, everything is happening in the present. Right.

Wait, so tell me what you don't like about it.

Well, because certain, certain spiritual, like, paradigms, times will try to only have an account of the present. They collapse everything into the present. And that, that's really problematic for people who can't be like, it's not a good theology of personhood, to be honest. Like, it doesn't take into account people like children, people with memory loss. There's all kinds of versions of ourselves that we're going to be that aren't hyper attuned. So you need a story about personhood that isn't just like, stay awake to

[Pete Holmes]

the present or you'll be lost forever.

[Kate Bowler]

But anything that would not be staying awake in the present is awake. And in the present.

You guys just repeat the same thing

[Pete Holmes]

over and over again at this point in the argument. So I'm just gonna.

[Kate Bowler]

I don't think we were arguing. I'm saying like, this, this idea, it's more of a recognizing that you, you can't leave.

No, you can't. But do we have a story in that is bigger than our awareness of ourselves?

Yes.

And in that Version. That's why. Why I. That's why I think a lot of the neo Buddhist language that keeps us in like a just. You are a story about the present. That's why I think Christian theology has something really lovely to say about like the past and the future. There will be. That's why knowing that there's a God who holds your story that is beyond your ability to interpret yourself is I find very relaxing because there will be huge parts of your life that you can't account for.

[Pete Holmes]

And it's. But like what holds your sense of you.

[Kate Bowler]

It's interesting. I think we might differ in that theologically speaking.

[Pete Holmes]

What's it.

[Kate Bowler]

Get out of here.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm leaving. My Uber's here.

[Producer or Announcer]

I also, just for the sake of

[Kate Bowler]

conversation, was trying to find Christian passages that support that idea.

[Pete Holmes]

All I came up with lilies of the field. I bet you were gonna lilies of the field.

[Kate Bowler]

Me, I was gonna lilies of the field. You or anxiety.

[Producer or Announcer]

That one.

[Kate Bowler]

Nobody's gained a minute of their life. I was gonna say before Abraham was.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I am.

[Kate Bowler]

That supports the idea that the being that we are.

That's just God being God though outside of time. That's not about Abraham.

Yeah. God being outside of time.

Yeah.

But then what is sustaining you?

God. Yeah.

Right. So your essence is also outside of time.

No, that's not how people work.

So we stand apart from God.

[Pete Holmes]

I like that.

[Kate Bowler]

We're gonna go like you're like.

[Pete Holmes]

This is a podcast that's also about the Trinity.

[Kate Bowler]

I. We can get into the Trinity. The divine dance is right there. Let's read it.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what's funny is there was a couple spots on this on my Jo. My Joyful Anyway tour that I was like, I bet you anything is this is going to devolve into Rainn Wilson asking me questions about the Trinity.

[Producer or Announcer]

Oh my God.

[Kate Bowler]

And it is. Are you doing his podcast?

He.

[Pete Holmes]

He was on my book tour. But yeah, I love his podcast.

[Kate Bowler]

Is he. What do you mean he was on. He was like moderating your book tour.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, that's fun.

Yeah.

He's a guy and he talked about the Trinity.

I was like, I refuse, sir.

[Pete Holmes]

I refuse. You can't make me.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I can't make you talk about the Trinity right now.

[Kate Bowler]

Okay.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I think for everyone listening.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Just as a gift. As a gift back.

[Kate Bowler]

So what are the joy killers you mentioned that we're talking about? Delight sharing your interests.

Yeah.

Social interaction.

Yeah. The three kind of cousins like things you can look for is you can look for delight. You can look for gratitude not because you can gratitude your way into it, but because when you're joyful, because that's that moment of temporary wholeness, you'll just say thank you. Like, it's so good to be alive. And it will. And the other thing you should look for is like a sense of hopefulness because it, it will shout down despair that says that nothing will ever be good again. But it's like in that sudden moment you're like, but wait, like the world is suddenly full and for someone who's just, just like lost somebody or isn't sure if the world is still full for them again, like just little kind of tastes of hope should be like, wait a minute, let me just like stay there for a second and see if that's a place that joy can find me.

That's interesting. One of the things I wrote on my ill prepared notes is that people need cancer to be inspirational, to be comfortable with it. Right. It seems in line with what we're talking about.

I really hate it when people are like, you know, it's the dying that teach us how to live.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what taught me how to live? Living, living again, just living. That was pretty much it.

[Kate Bowler]

There is something particularly offensive about sometimes I feel that I'm like, ugh. The strength that we just need from everybody, every disadvantaged or diagnosed person, we go like, okay, well then you can pay out for us.

Well, what they normally want is for you to have lost something truly horrific. But then you, they want to hear about it in a way that makes it feel like it's actually okay because

[Pete Holmes]

you gained it back in perspective so you're pretty much even.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, that we're back to everything happens for a reason.

And now the reason is you just, you learn some powerful lessons. I had so much mail. I've gotten a lot of mail over the years. But my favorite was this really cool a guy who obviously wasn't listening during the sermon. And it was like Gary, Gary from Indiana.

[Pete Holmes]

And he just wrote me this like super pissy note on the, just directly

[Kate Bowler]

on the church bulletin about why God was just to let me die.

[Pete Holmes]

Just was the word.

[Kate Bowler]

Like he's just figuring out the fairness and it was probably okay.

[Pete Holmes]

And then the part I really felt offended by was that he was so lazy.

[Kate Bowler]

He didn't just recopy it, he just mailed me the bulletin and I was like, look, sir, you think I don't teach pastors?

[Pete Holmes]

You think I can't look up your

[Kate Bowler]

church and call your pastor?

Gary, you gave me a Big clue,

[Pete Holmes]

Gary, how to find you.

[Kate Bowler]

My dad finds people who he signed the book to that returned it. That's what researchers are, Gary. So just, just.

They want, everyone wants things to be fair and they want your suffering to be in an economy of fairness.

It's similar to screenwriting. I'm just bringing this into my realm when we. And comedy too. There's a real system of justice going on. And if somebody like I have a joke right now I'm working on where I'm trying to explain how I think it's crazy that all we do is flip channels now because, you know, because scrolling is just flipping channels. And in the 80s and 90s, if you wanted to establish in a Godzilla movie that somebody was going to die and you are not going to care, you would show them in their apartment flipping channels in a, in a white tank top eating food and they'd just be mindful, mindless and. And then Godzilla would step on them and you'd cheer. Because we want death, but we want it to be just. And you. We want it to kill who we choose is worthy of dying.

Yeah. Someone who's already wasting his time.

Yeah, this guy was a waste. Well, I mean, what else? It's the opposite of enjoying or savoring.

[Pete Holmes]

If it was like kid at a birthday party.

[Kate Bowler]

Wrong. Exactly. And that's where you get there. There is. We do have some of that in art, which is like, I'm gonna flip that on its head and have the good person die or whatever. But for the most part. And jokes have that too. And I think that's one of the reasons why we love. There's certain shows that betray this. Game of Thrones sort of famously doesn't follow that rule. And that's what. Why people find it so shocking.

Yeah.

But like for the most part, yeah, we have a very. It's not as easy to spot as it was in like the 80s and 90s 90s, but we have a, a set of rules that we follow and that's in movies and tv who dies and in jokes who dies, who wins and who loses in a joke is important.

I guess it would be difficult. I mean it's, it is hard. It's hard to create coherence in short periods of time. It and our desire. I mean this is why we don't like Paradox is we don't like things that are. I mean we just, we find them neurologically stressful.

Yeah.

If they're. We don't like randomness. We don't like. We are pattern seeking creatures yeah. Jokes are patterns. Stories are patterns. And if they break, we only want them to break the archetype in small ways in which it.

A benign violation. Yeah.

A benign. Is that a term?

Yes, that's perfect. I didn't make it up.

Yeah.

A joke is a benign violation. And then if you go too far, what you mean is you've upset an order, shocked us too much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's lovely.

And I have that line, and comedians aren't supposed to have lines. I watch some communities, I'm like, yikes. You know what I mean? Everybody has a line, but, yeah, yikes.

[Pete Holmes]

Yikes.

[Kate Bowler]

A doodle do.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I think that we have. We want to deserve everything. We want to see people deserve things, and it's hard for us to find satisfaction and things that are undeserved and. And. But then, like, do we really want to be people who have to deserve everything all the time? I mean, wanting to earn every good thing has, like, just worn. Worn me out.

Yeah.

I mean, that's. That's honestly why I wanted to write about Joy instead of, like, mostly what I write about, which is, like, deconstructing cultural myths is like, but what lovely thing can we be promised if we're not just people who can earn our way into a great life?

Which kind of goes into the. Your first book, Prosperity Gospel, which is something that I found very offensive as well when I got divorced.

Yeah.

Because I had bought into a mythology that I didn't know I had, which was, I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't swear. I didn't have. I had sex before I was married, but it was to the person I was going to marry loophole.

[Eddie Pepitone]

And we stopped a couple months before

[Kate Bowler]

the marriage, before the wedding, so we're good. And then I thought nothing bad would happen to me. That was. That was the. So would you talk a little bit about that? I mean, are we aligned? That we're like, that's preposterous. When people said. Father Boyle said this in one of his books, Father Greg Boyle, he talked about those chain emails that go out that are like, these are the people whose alarms didn't go off on 9 11, and they were late to work, and so God spared them because they're good people. And you're like, what about the 3,000 people who died that, like, this is weird. How quickly we'll plug our ears and la, la, la. And be like, yeah, but this guy, whatever.

Yeah, I. Well, one of my very favorite things in the whole world to do is to listen to really wise people. Find the truest thing you can say, even if you can't say that everything happens for a reason. So like knowing, of course that there is a bizarre alchemy between like needing to. It's like this lovely Wendell Berry quote. Like life was requiring life from her. Like the sense that you kind of sometimes have to rise up in your own life and find this little space a possibility where otherwise nothing would have happened. And like. So how do you say that it is what we do as people is so precious and rare. And like takes enormous courage. Courage and. And have the right language for these truths that we kind of pluck from hell. And so Greg, Father Greg Boyle, this wonderful priest here in LA who runs this amazing ministry with like former gang members. He is always has this always crazy stories of like. And then I was visiting this guy and then there was a drive by shooting and I'm like, so what do you, what do you say? Say? And he says, my God protects me from nothing, sustains me in everything. Those are good. Like, those truths were our, like, Jim Finley.

Just so we give credit.

Who's Jim Finley?

It's like, if.

[Producer or Announcer]

Who's.

[Kate Bowler]

That's. Who said that?

No, yeah, tell me. I want to know.

[Pete Holmes]

I want to know.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I want to know.

[Kate Bowler]

He's quoting Jim Finley, the wonderful Jim Finley, who's also here. Who. You should know.

I'd like to know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a researcher,

[Pete Holmes]

Get your quotes right.

[Kate Bowler]

But I couldn't wait to say that quote to you when you were talking about that, because that's my favorite one. Are we aligned on that?

I put them all around. I have this, like, center at Duke and I put them everywhere. Like, I love. Rabbi Steve Leader, who's also in the area, writes, if you're going to go through hell, just don't come out empty handed.

Oh, wow.

These little. Like my friend Catherine Wolf, who had a series of debilitating strokes and she has these. This gorgeous ministry of people with significant disabilities is. She always talks about like treasures in the dark. And like, you want it from people who've suffered because you believe them when they say that this wasn't. This wasn't worth it. And wait, this, this wasn't worth it. Like, I mean, people are always surprised when I'm like this, this, this suffering, this cancer, this. Anything, this divorce because, because the, the cultural storytelling will go.

[Pete Holmes]

And this is always the end of the celebrity interview.

[Kate Bowler]

And it made me who I am today.

We just had Eugene Mirman on the podcast do you know who that that is? He's a comedian. He's wonderful. He was in a car accident. And I asked him, sort of naively, I was like, did that help you see the preciousness of life? And he, and I knew his first wife had passed. And he was like, no, my, my wife died. I already knew life was fleeting. And I was like, it was such a funny moment, obviously a teacher teaching moment for me. But I was like, right. I was doing that thing where I'm trying to make your car accident imbue reality with more preciousness. And he's like, I already had the big thing.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Like, right.

[Kate Bowler]

But he was so generous about it. There wasn't anything snarky about it. But we're. I keep saying we're talking about the same thing, but I want to make sure. Right. We're talking about the same thing. And hell and empty handed. That's a good one too.

Yeah, I really, I mean, I just started saying, I think just trying to encapsulate that feeling of like, like being so desperately in love with the world and being so heartbroken. I just felt like once I saw it in my own life, I could see it everywhere. And that kind of opened up a new part of my. I mean, because it took away any feeling that frankly, I deserved my life.

I wonder. I hope I'm not opening too big of a can of worms, but don't you feel like some Christian theology has done that with Christ dying? Like we really turn that into. But it was to wash away our sins. When is. Do you have any sort of Katie feelings about like, does it have to be so commoditized? Am I using that word right? Well into like a fix?

[Eddie Pepitone]

What could.

[Kate Bowler]

Like, to me, Christ's death was the big me too. Like, I am Richard Rohr. I suffer in you, with you. And as you like, I'm involved in your suffering. I'm not watching somewhere else. And also what's essential to me, what's essential to Christ wasn't touched by any of that. That there's a part. Meister Eckhart, there's a part of you somewhere that hasn't been touched by anything. Right. So that was kind of the message of it to me. But it has been sort of. And I have a feeling that your Christianity is different or has more depth maybe than just like he died. But it wasn't God not saving him him. It was actually God saving us. Is that, is that.

Well, yeah, I mean, I, I do think like atonement theories, right. Which is what these Are, is like explanations for why whether there needs to be a pain, like pain or a sacrifice from God himself in order to change the course of history. I mean, there's lots of, Honestly, there's a lot of really good, slightly different

[Pete Holmes]

atonement theories that for me, get the job done.

[Kate Bowler]

Like, I. And I, I, because I teach in a divinity school, like, I would say of the 12 or 15 different denominations we have represented, they have like, similar and but slightly competing language about like, why God would send a God self to die. Like, I do think that the, the part that I totally agree with you about is that like, there's. There can be like a really simplistic way where people are like, God needs to solve a problem in a clean and rather horrific way. And, and in the prosperity Gospel version, it goes. And Jesus did all the bad stuff so that I can get all the

[Pete Holmes]

good stuff is a very simple way of saying it.

[Kate Bowler]

But knowing, knowing that having a richer story about how God's own humanity is teaching us something about how we need to be in a world that is saved. And also, like, we're all trying to figure out in our own path which parts need to die and which parts need to. Need to like, kind of like go through the fire and become lovelier versions of what they were. That's our language. And for that sanctification, like, that's what the story of Jesus does. It goes, justification, what needs to die. Sanctification, like, what needs to live. And I think even if we do have like, maybe slightly different atonement theories, I think in all of it, what we're asking is like, do we need to be saved? I think, yes, from God. I think we need to be saved from the durable evil of the world. World, which is the great. Which is the great nonsense. Like, I mean, the illusion. I don't think evil is an illusion, but I think we're. I think like the fact that the world is a pretty terrifying place, that is, it seems to either have two

[Pete Holmes]

arrows, it's one toward its own imminent

[Kate Bowler]

destruction, and one in which we like,

[Pete Holmes]

look at each other and realize actually each one of us is a complete miracle. And why did I not recycle earlier in my life?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Life.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

So I think, I think whether we. I think we're not sure right now how to. How much the world need. I think, I think we're a little more convinced than we were 10 years ago that the world needs to be saved. I'm very concerned that, like, most of our impulses are like, nihilistic. Is they're, they're self serving and they're like death dealing.

Really.

Like I'm sorry, teenagers who don't want to get their driver's licenses because they're too busy online gaming. You know what I mean? Like that they can't. That we're living in a hyper reality in which people can't enjoy the very parts of what it means to be human. Like that stuff really worries me.

So when you're saying saved, you're not talking about souls there, you're talking about. We're talking about the arc of the world.

Yeah. Well, I think in every version the Christian story would say both. Both, Both.

Who are we saving souls from though?

What do you mean?

We're sa. I. That that was one of my questions. Is like we're saving it from God. Like God's going to torture you or send you to hell.

I mean probably not me personally, but I just.

Okay, hilarious. I think that is still probably. You're 100% Christian.

I said 100%. I was doing that to shame you

[Pete Holmes]

with which makes me less 100%.

[Kate Bowler]

You were saying like probably to implicate me.

[Pete Holmes]

I was only not doing things to

[Kate Bowler]

kind of like friends make you feel worse. And so that probably puts me at about like 98%.

I'm just thinking, talking about atonement theory. I never get to talk to atone about atonement theory.

[Pete Holmes]

People is your listener.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I don't know.

[Kate Bowler]

I think about this all the time. Whoever they are, they're special gummy bears that, that are like I'm here for the dick jokes, the atonement theory.

[Pete Holmes]

I always pay very close attention when you talk about God.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh really?

Yeah.

Well, I think there are a lot of people, it turns out that are, you know.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

In both in the mix. But you know, there's the Richard Rourke quote where he says Jesus didn't die to change God's mind about us, but to change our mind about God.

Yeah. To be honest, like I think atonement theory is pretty complicated. And like I think because even just the nature of evil is really. I mean some people think that evil is like a presence or personality. Others think that it's like it's just a negation and it's, it's complete absurdity that it has a non reality to it. So I just even think the terms like I'm a historian, not a theologian. I feel like I respect a good atonement theory. I feel like I've got three that

[Pete Holmes]

seem viable to me that are probably pretty close okay. So I've always. I was like, yeah, that's pretty much right.

[Kate Bowler]

Got a backup and a battle.

But I think our language. We just. I. I mean, you'd have to also have a pretty strong story about where you think the world is headed. I think if you want to talk about what it's being saved from or for.

Okay. We're pretty much out of time. I wanted to ask you about. I've been taking a lot of comfort, and that's my bias right there. I have a confirmation bias for sure. I'm looking for comfort about AI I did a deep dive into the, like, doom and gloomy loom and was my al. I made a joke. My algorithm was on YouTube, was all the T800 Terminator robot. Every video was just flames. And, like, these jobs won't exist. And, like, the rich are building bunkers. It just got contaminated. And then the light at the end of the tunnel I found was people that know history that started talking about.

Yeah.

How anytime a new technology. I just watched one last. Last night. A new technology emerges. It follows a certain pattern. Is that anything you have to talk about?

You're like, can you maybe make me feel better about. I did once when it was.

I do think people are scared. So there'd be a service there.

There are not just me. When in. It was the year of our Lord 1999, and I was an anxious college student, and I took a class called about the millennium, about Y2K.

Can you stop? Stop. I have a bit about AI where I go, please be a Y2K. And I'm like, if you're laughing, you're 40, and I go get a colonoscopy, which you'd appreciate, but. Right. Y2K. Please keep going. I just can't believe I have a R1 school professor confirming my premise. Please be a Y2K.

[Producer or Announcer]

Keep going.

[Pete Holmes]

Please be Y2K. Well, I just. So I was.

[Kate Bowler]

I was very stressed out about it, and it was.

[Pete Holmes]

So I took a history class of, like, all the times in which we

[Kate Bowler]

thought the world was going to end and what the precipitating event.

[Pete Holmes]

Plague.

[Kate Bowler]

Slash technology.

[Pete Holmes]

Mostly plague.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

Yeah, it was. And I think. I think mostly it convinced me that we need a story. We don't just need an account of technology. We need a story about the future. We need to know why. Like what. What always needs to be reborn. Like, if. Even if some things go away. Like what? I'm just thinking, like, Italy and the Renaissance after the plague. Like, what. What commitment to, like, beauty and community. And togetherness do we need to have. Because we need like a louder voice than the AI. Disruption, Bunker building, inevitable list.

So a plague and an AI are similar disruptions. Right.

I think that's great. And so. And both require a kind of deep hopefulness. Not about AI, but about humanity.

And we're back to courage.

I think we're back to courage.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But we've had courage in the past.

Yes.

I really. I really enjoyed that.

Yeah.

Like when the printing press came out.

Yeah.

Shifted thing. Don't let me explain this to you.

Movable type. Say more.

Googan. Guggenheim. The Guggenheim Press. No, no, no. It was a press in a spiral. So you see all the paintings in one easy jaunt.

Gutenberg.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Gutenberg.

[Kate Bowler]

Steve Gutenberg Press. From Police Academy.

[Pete Holmes]

I think you were just saying the name of the museum.

[Kate Bowler]

I was.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

That was the spiral riff. The Guggenheim was in the spiral.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't get that.

[Pete Holmes]

It was good.

[Kate Bowler]

Are you embarrassed now?

So full of shame.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what this podcast was about.

[Eddie Pepitone]

It's a shame based podcast.

[Pete Holmes]

Reasonable people feeling shame, creating concurrent waves of shame.

[Kate Bowler]

It's been a lot.

[Pete Holmes]

It's been a lot.

[Kate Bowler]

It's been a lot.

[Pete Holmes]

Kate, thanks for coming out.

[Eddie Pepitone]

The book is Joyful. Any who joyful. Anyhoo, 25 things to smile about. Dogs, jumpsuits, Vape. It's kind of dark. Vape.

[Kate Bowler]

We could talk about vape.

Yeah. The.

How we just go into our brain

[Eddie Pepitone]

and we push down dopamine. You know what I mean?

[Kate Bowler]

Like we're just. This is us now with everything. Pornography.

[Pete Holmes]

You're really upsetting Sugar.

[Kate Bowler]

I know.

[Eddie Pepitone]

I hate this stuff. I don't like it.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't like it. Make it stop. I don't want it. I don't want it.

[Kate Bowler]

Nicotine, caffeine, success. Rise and grind.

[Eddie Pepitone]

And then we're dead.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, that's not a good story.

No, that's a bad story.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That's a bad story. It's true.

[Kate Bowler]

We need a better story. We need joy, connection, humanity, risk, courage.

That's right.

We need these virtues and they are kind of going away.

[Pete Holmes]

So I'm glad that you're be ready to.

[Kate Bowler]

To be in love with the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So finish your Y2K thing.

People kept living and then you were born. That's the end of that story.

But am I right in hearing the implied corollary?

I think the main issue is probably going to be that we need taxation on generational wealth to force people to put money back into the infrastructure of the country.

You mean tax the rich?

I mean tax generational wealth.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

Help me understand why that's not just tax the rich. What do you mean? Like, so families that just keep hoarding, we.

We have forever money in a way that is, like, more concerning, I think, than, like, late 19th century Gilded Age comparisons.

And that's more of an issue than just, like, one rich guy.

Yes.

Yeah. Tell me.

[Producer or Announcer]

What.

[Pete Holmes]

Why?

[Kate Bowler]

Well, you can't. I mean, if you don't. If you have too much money, that's has no relationship to infrastructure, hospitals, oh, museums, culture, life, R1 universities that need endowment money.

[Producer or Announcer]

Duke. Duke.

[Kate Bowler]

Bringing it back.

[Producer or Announcer]

Sure, it's a dog's name, but it's a good school.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Duke. It's the only one. Yale.

[Kate Bowler]

Nah.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Ah. Duke, get over here.

[Pete Holmes]

Duke.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Who named it?

[Producer or Announcer]

Who?

[Eddie Pepitone]

Na. A dog lover at a park.

[Pete Holmes]

It was actually a tobacco baron, but

[Eddie Pepitone]

it sounds like a tobacco baron. I've been by Dukes.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

No, that's it. You got it. You nailed it.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You need Duke. Wow.

[Kate Bowler]

Wow. All right.

We figured it out.

[Eddie Pepitone]

We did.

[Kate Bowler]

Did.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay, this was really.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Are you rapping?

[Pete Holmes]

Bye.

[Kate Bowler]

Bye.

I mean, I get it. Get out of here. Get out of here.

My Uber's here already.

I'll call your Uber. Did you Uber here? You drove yourself? Drove.

No, I didn't.

I'll u.

Here.

I'll u. You. You better u U believe it.

[Pete Holmes]

You're your fun in real life. You are.

[Kate Bowler]

What? I appreciate it. Fun. Maybe I'll do your pudding podcast. Oh, that'll be.

[Pete Holmes]

Finally. Yeah, get on that. That'll be tense.

[Eddie Pepitone]

That'll be tense.

[Pete Holmes]

Did you say that'll be tense?

[Producer or Announcer]

Well, I'm gonna talk a lot about the present wakefulness.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kate Bowler]

It'd be awful. You're like.

[Pete Holmes]

Then you're just gonna spitball the Trinity

[Kate Bowler]

and then get into atonement theory.

You don't need no Trinity here where we're going.

[Eddie Pepitone]

We don't.

[Pete Holmes]

If you want, I'll bring in real atonement theory specialists. I try not to talk about stuff I don't know anything about theory.

[Eddie Pepitone]

We don't need no atonement. All right.

[Kate Bowler]

You can do it.

I appreciate you. Oh, therapy, language.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I. This was really lovely.

[Kate Bowler]

I loved it.

[Pete Holmes]

I do.

[Producer or Announcer]

No, Kate, your book is wonderful to

[Kate Bowler]

end on a sincere note. And, you know, driving down here, I. I realized I was like, I gotta snap out of this. We've done hundreds and hundreds of episodes of this podcast, and you were a plague or an AI. I'm about to storm the Bastille. Still Employment is so low. What I'm saying is you were a disruption. I don't mean you were a plague, but you were this disruption. And it was really fun to be alive with you for this time, and I really appreciate it. I don't just mean conscious. I mean, like, what the fuck is happening? And, like, a little. I felt a little embarrassed. I felt like I was being misunderstood. I felt like I was being aggressive. But then I also felt like I was delighting you.

[Producer or Announcer]

I learned a lot.

[Kate Bowler]

And, like, I'm gonna walk out of this.

[Producer or Announcer]

Like, Mark Wahlberg in that scene in

[Kate Bowler]

Three Kings where he's being tortured. But then he's so happy after.

[Eddie Pepitone]

You know what I'm talking about. He's, like, euphoric.

[Kate Bowler]

Hey, guys. I feel so good. And Jim Gaffigan's there, not because this is torture, but I am enlivened by this conversation.

[Pete Holmes]

That is truly the greatest and most specific compliment that I will carry with me.

[Kate Bowler]

You've seen the movie Three Kings? Wow. Nobody's seen that movie.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Mark Wahlberg hasn't seen that movie.

[Kate Bowler]

Thank you. Would you say, keep it crispy? It's how we end.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes, yes. Keep it crispy. Sir.

[Kate Bowler]

First time sir. Longtime fan.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Thank you.

[Producer or Announcer]

It's called Joyful.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Just be joyful. It's called Joyful.

[Kate Bowler]

Natural. Now the naked present.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Neo Buddhism. I'm sick of this Neo Buddhist. And I say that with all the

[Kate Bowler]

Christian love I can muster. Subtitle 100% yeah.

[Eddie Pepitone]

Goodbye.