We Made It Weird #198: Mirabai Starr and Ordinary Mysticism

Summary

Podcast Summary: "We Made It Weird #198 – Mirabai Starr and Ordinary Mysticism"

Podcast: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes
Episode: We Made It Weird #198: Mirabai Starr and Ordinary Mysticism
Date: November 15, 2024
Host: Pete Holmes
Guests: Valerie Chaney (co-host, Pete’s wife) & Mirabai Starr (author, mystic)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the concept of "ordinary mysticism" through a rich, heartfelt, and humorous conversation between Pete, Val, and their friend Mirabai Starr—author of Ordinary Mysticism. They discuss the sacredness of everyday life, the paradoxes of spiritual seeking, doubts and vulnerability, and what it truly means to have direct spiritual experiences. Pete and Val ground the discussion in their own quirks and lived experiences, while Mirabai shares personal anecdotes and wisdom from her work translating and writing about mystics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Warm-Up & Setting the Scene

00:00–18:36

• Pete and Val set a playful, self-aware tone, riffing on topics like phone voicemail messages, the image of "dogs playing poker," Ben Affleck’s The Accountant, and quirky observations about social situations and neurodiversity.
• "This is the Friday episode, and it's where we hurt one another." – Pete (01:57)
• They describe the episode as a bit different and “nacho bar”—meaning, a little out of the ordinary compared to their usual format.
• Introduction of Mirabai: She’s described as a “mystic who writes about mystics” with a new book, Ordinary Mysticism, praised for its down-to-earth, compassionate approach to spirituality.
• “If you're going to read one spiritual (book) this year, it's Ordinary Mysticism.” – Val (13:58)

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Naming the Weirdness & Vulnerability

18:37–24:47

• Pete, Val, and Mirabai discuss their need to “name the weirdness” when things feel irregular or out-of-the-norm.
• “I’ll do most anything. But I have to talk about it...I have to clear the air and go, like, our daughter is being babysat...there’s a sort of, like, irregularity to it that only needs to be addressed. And then all of that will kind of dissolve away. But I have to mention it. I have to be like, this is weird, right?” – Pete (19:49)
• Mirabai agrees: “It is true...I feel so seen.” (20:41)
• Naming things is a way to refuse being “gaslit” or excluded from shared reality.

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Spiritual Power, Ego, and Doubt

24:48–26:30

• Pete asks about the relationship between spirituality and ego/power trips (e.g., toxic church leadership or cult leaders).
• Mirabai: “I can’t even relate to it. I’m way too insecure to feel like I could be in charge of anybody else’s spiritual life.” (24:47)
• Discussion about the importance of letting saints and spiritual leaders be “imperfect”—referencing Mirabai's "let your saints fuck up" chapter.

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Demystifying Mysticism & Reading from Ordinary Mysticism

26:31–29:06

• Mirabai reads from her book’s introduction on "demystifying mysticism".
• “Welcome to the temple of your regular life. The garden of your days, the harbor where you catch your breath, the theater of your relationships...Your life is holy ground. And you are a mystic.” – Mirabai (reading, 26:56)
• “A mystical experience may or may not be connected to established spiritual traditions...Mysticism is not about concepts. It's about communion with ultimate reality...and it blooms at the heart of regular life.” – Mirabai (28:38)
• Emphasis that everyone can be a mystic—no need for exotic rituals, just presence in daily life.

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Seeking, Spiritual Practice, and the Fruit of Experience

29:07–36:56

• Pete, referencing Rupert Spira and other teachers, unpacks the tendency to chase spiritual "prizes," and mysticism as an always-present reality.
• Mirabai: “If I can't harness the love here and now and ride that through this lifetime, I'm not interested...But it took me a long time before I felt the confidence to challenge that paradigm." (31:04)
• Discussion of spiritual traditions’ focus on ultimate rewards—salvation, enlightenment, etc.—and Mirabai’s challenge to that model.
• Teresa of Ávila and self-verifying mystical experience: “Did the experience expand my heart with more love for God? If it did, it was real.” – Mirabai (35:55)
• Pete shares Rupert Spira's test for solipsism: “Try it. Live like you're the only person. It's a bummer. It sucks.” (35:57)

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The Paradox of Seeking & The Remembering/Forgetting Dance

36:57–44:20

• The paradox: "The ultimate truth can't be sought after, but only seekers find it.” (37:01)
• Mysticism is accessible by showing up to life consciously—with an open heart.
• Val: “Everything in nature is the clue that that's correct. It's tides going in and out. It's seasons changing. It's our own breath moving in and out. Like that is the permission...” (39:02)
• Grief, trauma, and healing as portals to love; forgetting and remembering as inherent to the mystical path.
• Pete: “The forgetting and the remembering isn't a mistake. It's the sheet music...the wave and the rest.” (38:45)
• Mirabai connects this “dance” to Sufi practice (the practice of remembrance, dhikr).

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Service, Losing Self, and the Devotional Path

44:21–54:03

• Service as spiritual practice—valued for the way it makes you forget the self.
• Recent experience at a men’s prison: “I forgot all about my individual neurotic issues for those blessed eight hours. It was a flow state...the best part was it wasn't about me.” – Mirabai (46:32)
• Teresa of Ávila’s “interior castle” and the idea that union with the divine leads to returning to the world in service.
• Val asks about the path of the “feminine mystic” and relationship as a devotional means to non-duality.
• Mirabai: “When we love and call out for the presence that you may not believe in, in with your mind...the devotion itself waters my heart enough...that (I) get out of the mud of the lotus’s roots and into that opening to the vast sky of love.” (53:04)

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Doubt, Jewish Upbringing, and Redefining God

54:04–66:56

• Mirabai on doubt: “At least half the time I don't believe in God. True confessions.” (52:38 & 63:14)
• Value of questioning in her Jewish upbringing; suspicion of belief systems and focus on service/social justice.
• “The only God I can really hang my hat on is a God that I keep shaking out of the box and letting be beyond my small ability to name it or describe it...” (64:11)
• Rejecting the idea of a transactional, punitive deity: “We reject the idea that God is keeping very accurate records of every lustful thought but refuses to intervene with genocide.” – Pete (66:20)

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Non-Duality, Oneness, and the Sacred

66:57–71:35

• Pete discusses Rupert Spira’s teaching: The real blasphemy is to insist on separation from God, not to claim oneness.
  • "It's not blasphemous to say that your nature...is ultimate awareness. What's blasphemy is to say that you stand apart from God." – Pete (69:50)
• Mirabai: “Not only that everything is holy, everything is an access point...but you, each one of us, is a living meeting place for the rendezvous with the beloved.” (70:02)
• Everyday activities (walking, cooking, playing with children) are named as mystical access points.

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The Sacred in Everyday Moments

71:36–80:52

• Pete movingly shares a mystical moment with his daughter: “...there are just these flashes of recognition on her face. And we share it, you know, that, like, divine. She's forgetting that she's my kid, and I'm forgetting that I'm her dad. And we look at each other in the middle of a game, and there's just a flash. And that's the right word for it. It's very brief...but just for a second...that's spiritual, too.” (72:35)
• "Naming it…I think that's what makes it mystical. It's not just seeing a beautiful sunset and enjoying it, but naming it, like you just did playing with your daughter..." – Mirabai (72:58)
• Discussion of intentionality and presence—participation in the sacred.
• The practice of showing up as a minimal requirement and that the divine can “be found in everything, even the temples,” echoing the idea of “transcend and include” (Richard Rohr).

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Accessible Mysticism: “The Good News”

76:15–77:19

• Val: “This book really is the good news...it’s available to anyone. You're already doing it. You have everything you need...it's probably already in the things that you love doing.” (76:20)
• Mirabai: “...this is just my...language...but this is the way I'm describing what I'm hearing all around me. I just feel like a spokesperson...of the wisdom of the collective that's rising right now that needs to say, yes, everything is sacred and everyone belongs.” (78:14)
• Pete: “The things you really enjoy that really make you feel...those are probably deeply spiritual.” (77:19)

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Closing & Notable Quotes

• “Keep it crispy.” – Mirabai, taking over the show’s classic sign-off (80:38)
• Heartfelt gratitude, mutual appreciation, and the invitation to check out Mirabai’s book and upcoming events.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Welcome to the temple of your regular life…Your life is holy ground. And you are a mystic.” — Mirabai (26:56)
• “All it means to be a mystic is to have a direct experience of the sacred. You have had zillions of those. You may be having one right now.” — Mirabai (27:14)
• “If I can't harness the love here and now and ride that through this lifetime, I'm not interested.” — Mirabai (31:04)
• “Did the experience expand my heart with more love for God? If it did, it was real.” — Mirabai, quoting Teresa of Ávila (35:55)
• “The forgetting and the remembering isn't a mistake. It's the sheet music... the wave and the rest.” — Pete (38:45)
• “You need that almost to get into the doorway of sex. And the ultimate goal of sex is to merge back into one thing again.” — Val (60:06)
• “The only God I can really hang my hat on is a God that I keep shaking out of the box and letting be beyond my small ability to name it or describe it.” — Mirabai (64:11)
• “You, each one of us, is a living meeting place for the rendezvous with the beloved.” — Mirabai (70:02)
• “There are just these flashes of recognition...and we look at each other in the middle of a game, and there's just a flash. That's the right word for it. It's very brief... That's spiritual, too.” — Pete (72:35)
• “Everything is sacred. And everyone belongs.” — Mirabai (78:14)
• “Keep it crispy.” — Mirabai (80:38)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–18:36: Intro, banter, and episode framing
• 18:37–24:47: Welcoming Mirabai and discussing "naming the weirdness"
• 26:31–29:06: Mirabai reads from Ordinary Mysticism
• 29:07–39:02: Seeking, spiritual practice, and the dance of forgetting/remembering
• 44:21–54:03: Service, devotion, and duality as a path to nonduality
• 54:04–66:56: Doubt, Jewish roots, God-concepts, and spiritual maturity
• 66:57–71:35: Non-duality, sacredness of the self, and portals to the divine
• 71:36–77:19: Everyday mystical moments and the “good news”
• 80:38: "Keep it crispy" sign-off

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Language & Tone

The tone is warm, humorous, intimate, and deeply compassionate. The language is conversational, sometimes poetic, and always inclusive—making the mystical accessible and ordinary life feel sacred. The episode balances playful jokes, gentle self-deprecation, and profound spiritual insights.

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Summary:
If you want a podcast that seamlessly blends spiritual wisdom, lived experience, and a sense of mischievous play, this episode is a balm. Mirabai Starr’s Ordinary Mysticism emerges as a beacon of inclusivity and groundedness—affirming that every ordinary moment can open into the sacred, and every flawed human is, by virtue of being alive, a mystic in their own right.

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird. You made it weird. You made it weird.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You made it weird. Yes. You made it weird. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[C]

What's happening, weirdo?

[A]

Oh, I forgot how we start.

[C]

You thought we started with.

[A]

Hi, everybody. Welcome to We Made It Weird dot com. This is a website weird for 10% added to your bill. But your bill was 00. So this is a different. For those who've never tuned in to this show before, Friday is our. Usually Val and I catch up. This is Val.

[C]

Hi.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

Was that a good high?

[A]

It was like a Val doll. You pull the string.

[C]

Hi. You know what? Somebody gave me a great compliment, and I have to agree that my outgoing message really sounds like me.

[A]

It does.

[C]

I'm not putting on any kind of phone voice, which is very rare for me.

[A]

I really. Well, as someone who hears that a lot when I'm frantically calling you and you're not answering.

[C]

Okay. Why did you have to.

[A]

Why did you have to go there, Little stinker booty?

[C]

Would you rather I answer while I'm having an affair?

[A]

I loved it. No, that was absolute too close to.

[C]

The bone because that really did happen to you.

[A]

Good Lord. 10 years ago, plus. No.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

10 plus.

[C]

No, like 20 years ago.

[A]

2007. Yeah. So 20. 17 years ago.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What's the statute?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, this is the Friday episode, and it's where we hurt one another.

[C]

So tune in.

[A]

I don't feel hurt at all. And I'm sorry. Last time, I think I was driving away and the gate didn't close and I was worried the dog was gonna get out, and I. That's when I heard your voicemail. Muchos mucho. So I do associate the sound of your voicemail with me usually trying to.

[C]

Get a hold of.

[A]

To get a hold of you in, like, a frantic way. But it all worked out.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Bo, our dog, escaped.

[B]

He.

[A]

He made 50 bucks. He made 50 bucks. What was he doing? He can't tell us, but he had a little doggy pocket.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was a crisp 50 in there.

[C]

And, I mean, there was a clue in the green visor he was wearing.

[A]

He's an accountant.

[C]

No, accountants don't wear green visors.

[A]

Yeah, See through green visors.

[C]

That's what, like, gambler, like poker players wear.

[A]

You think of poker dealers first and foremost.

[C]

Okay. But certainly not account.

[A]

No. An accountant. Like, if you went as an accountant for Halloween, you would wear a see through green visor.

[C]

What I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah, I'm going to go gimmick if.

[C]

I went as an accountant. As a Halloween costume. I would wear, like, bottle cap glasses and, like, a button up.

[A]

It's not looking good for you. Valet filled in for me. It's a green eye shade. Why do it?

[C]

Countenance. I've never seen an account.

[A]

I don't know. There's. It's. This is because I'm older than you. I'm older than you. Sorry.

[C]

So when did poker dealers start using it? None of those people look like accountants. They all look like poker dealers.

[A]

Yeah, well, I'm pretty sure Jon Stewart's wearing it in the style of an accountant. And a little adding machine.

[C]

I mean, to be fair, I do go to a casino to do that.

[A]

Oh, my God, that is so good. Because why not? You make your money there and you clean it there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It is the same green visor for poker players. That's for the light. I don't know what it is. I don't know. And we're not. That's not that kind of show.

[C]

No.

[A]

We ask questions. We never answer. Yeah, no. Yeah, but it's a little adding machine. And how did we get on this? God. Oh, what was your riff with Bo? He's a poker dealer.

[C]

Yeah, that. He's a po. I was. I forgot that the dealers used it, but I guess the house always wins, so. That is correct.

[A]

You've made a powerful.

[C]

Gambling is all I was trying to do.

[A]

You made cash money and also, like.

[C]

Kind of a little nod to that famous painting, Dogs Playing Poker. Yeah. And there's. I'm pretty sure one of them's wearing a green visor. And I don't think he's an accountant.

[A]

Okay, I'm looking up Dogs Playing Poker. Here it is. You know what's funny, Val, is I love the movie the Accountant starring Ben Affleck and Anna Kendrick.

[C]

And he wears the groom visor.

[A]

No, but in that movie, no one's wearing the visor in the painting.

[C]

Is that the real painting?

[A]

That's the one.

[B]

Oh, the table.

[A]

Why this painting has endured for over 100 years, we'll never know. Somebody has a great bit about. Dogs would be terrible at poker because when they're happy, they wag their tails.

[C]

Oh, yeah, they have now get a poker tail.

[A]

You've made a powerful enemy today, my friend.

[C]

This is the sort of adorable comedy you can expect.

[A]

I like it. But in the movie the Accountant, in the scene where Anna Kendrick mentions the green visors that accountants wear.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In that same scene, Dogs playing poker comes up, but not because of green visors.

[C]

What?

[A]

Yeah. Whoa. She's like. And my parents also liked, like, bad art, like Dogs playing Poker.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

So that's a weird one for me.

[C]

That must have been a stream of consciousness for the writer because he went to green visors. Also poker dealers. Dogs playing poker.

[A]

The only reason I'm gonna disagree. Well, maybe it is true. But I will say no. Spoiler. The dog. The dog playing poker painting comes back in a delightfully satisfying way in the underrated Jason Bourne adjacent movie, the Accountant.

[C]

I think you've talked plenty, plenty of the Accountant.

[A]

What if Jason Bourne, instead of being trained by the government with reds and blues to be a super soldier, what if he was just autistic? The accountant. That's what the poster said.

[C]

Is the. Because I'll never watch it. Is the accountant.

[A]

Your loss.

[C]

Is he an accountant you're gonna like as a cover?

[A]

Valerie, you've opened a can of worms here, my friend.

[C]

I don't want to. I want to close it. I thought it was a can of beans.

[A]

I know, but all I'll say is Ben Affleck's character in the Accountant is an accountant. A cpa. He does taxes. Okay, but that's his cover. Okay, but he is. It's his cover for being an accountant for like, like, arms dealers, dangerous people.

[C]

Ah, so he isn't.

[A]

So he picked. But it's funny that he. It is like the Beekeeper, the Jason Statham movie, which we've already laughed about.

[C]

Right.

[A]

He was in a gang called the Beekeepers. And then he becomes a Beekeeper.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And no one is like, is that a little one for one? But he could have done anything as his cover. But he did decide to do a few. Something. Just a little income taxes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And also for the Saudi, whatever. Some. I don't know, they make it.

[C]

Is he good at fighting?

[A]

Okay. I mean, again, you've opened a can of worms here.

[C]

Why am I asking these follow ups?

[A]

Because he's autistic. His father, which is sort of questionable, I would say certainly, yeah. His father's in the military. Is like, we're not putting him in a sensory friendly environment. We're not sending him to a special school.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like a dead. I'm going to train him. Well, not even him. This is so silly. As I'm saying this, I'm realizing what a silly kind of premise it is. But like, the best of the best. Train him in, like, fighting. Fighting and shooting. They said this kid can't make eye contact. Give him a gun.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Give him a gun and Some karate. But then he becomes excellent at it. And one of the things, I find it a very emotional movie. Obviously I see parallels to my family and stuff, but. But like finding the. I know he's a killer and, you know, violent and blah, blah, blah. But that's just a way for us to understand like he's effect, he's effective, he has gifts. I. I sound so stupid right now.

[C]

No, you don't.

[A]

But look, if you're looking for a movie that is good, it's well made.

[C]

Yeah. I love it.

[A]

The Accountant.

[C]

I mean, I love that you love it.

[A]

I know. I. I don't want you to love it. It's my.

[C]

It's mine.

[A]

It's mine.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I love Pride and Prejudice.

[C]

I know you love more of my movies than I.

[A]

Well, you love really good movies. Yeah. Nobody thinks the Accountant is Pride and Prejudice, but nobody goes into Pride and Prejudice for adrenaline thumping heart Stump. That's true fun that helps them forget their problems while also processing what it was like growing up in maybe a non neurotypical family.

[C]

Yeah, I get it.

[A]

Although when we watch Pride and Prejudice recently. All these people have autism.

[C]

No. No. Well, I didn't. I don't know about all of them, but Mr. Darcy has autism. It was a huge, It's a huge breakthrough.

[A]

We've been like, looking back on history is always like, oh my God. Trans people were always there. Gay people were always there. And when we figure out a new thing, we go, it's not a new thing. You just named it.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

And autism existed in Mr. Darcy. He doesn't know how to behave.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He's kind of bluntly honest.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like classic Tism.

[C]

He's like very stressed out in a ballroom. He like awkwardly, you know, doesn't pick up when she's hinting to like, it's autism dancing. Yeah. And he says a line in it. Even in the book, that's something like, I don't do well when I'm in a room of people that I don't know or I don't do well, like conversing with people that I've never met.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm like, yeah, buddy, I know. It's okay.

[A]

It's okay. And also I relate to that. I'm. I'm not trying to claim the spectrum. I'm just saying I relate. When I'm in a social setting, I'm like, how long do we do this?

[C]

I know.

[A]

How long is this for? Well, we're just having nacho bar. Nacho bar is what, 1520.

[C]

I really.

[A]

What is the point of nacho bar?

[C]

I know that, like, I Sure. I get the appeal of somebody who can just, like, go in any situation. He'll like, bring the snacks. He's smooshing, smooshing and cruising.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like, you know, but I think if I had a husband that was like that, that would eventually get old.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And I appreciate that. Kind of like having the freak in the room.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I prefer Frankenstein at the beach. Frankenstein at the beach.

[C]

Cute.

[A]

Well, no. If I'm watching a show and someone isn't going, is it because nachos are fun to eat or are we hungry? Is this to fill up for sustenance or like a pre meal crunch and munch? A pre meal crunch and munch. I now understand nacho bar.

[C]

Just like. Or like my whole family. You haven't done this, but you would do this. Like, my whole family is, like, cooking Christmas breakfast and we're listening to Christmas music, and you're like, it's like five minutes before we're eating and you're making a tofu sandwich. And then everybody.

[A]

I'm sure I've done that.

[C]

I'm sure you've done that with like, sauerkraut open on the fridge.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

I don't know. I think it's cute.

[A]

It is.

[C]

So suing.

[A]

Here's. Here's a tip. I don't like sushi. Sashimi.

[C]

Sashimi.

[A]

It's a Will Arnett joke.

[C]

No, it's.

[B]

It's.

[C]

Yeah, it is a Will Arnett joke, but it's a Smartless.

[A]

We don't have to plug another podcast. We could have just said it was from Will Arnett.

[C]

That's not very generous of you.

[A]

We're talking about generosity of spirit. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were a bunch of fishermen in little boats, kind of tranquilly catching a. Catching a couple fish, keeping a. Keeping things afloat, literally. And then in comes an aircraft carrier with three celebrities, and I'm not being generous.

[C]

You're right.

[A]

Three celebrities in a marketing budget. I'm just kidding. Would love to be a guest. Fans of all three. Fans of all three. Seriously. I. I have to caveat. I am not bitter about the wild success of Smartless. I think it's. It's a great show. And I'm only as a knee jerk joke. Of course I'm gonna be like. Don't mean you're not joke.

[C]

Yeah. I don't think anybody thinks you're serious.

[A]

I'm grateful for everyone that listens And I just said this to someone yesterday. I was like, I like where our show is and I just want to keep it there. That's it. That's. That's my ambition. I just like it. Keep it there.

[C]

I like it.

[A]

It's fun and I love it.

[C]

It's fun and I love it.

[A]

It's fun and I love it.

[B]

But.

[C]

But as you can tell, this is a different kind of episode because we're talking way more than we would on a normal intro. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, we. So, yeah. Thank you, Val. Very good.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Very good hosting.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Normally on Friday, it's me and Val and that we wanted to do a long intro so there was a little familiarity. So it's not too jarring and not too nacho bar for some of the people that listen to the show for the comfort of the routine.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which would be me. So not too nacho bar. But we are saying it's a little nacho bar, meaning a little out of the ordinary. Val and I sat down with our dear friend Mira Baistar, who is a mystic and who writes about mystics. That is my. That's what Father Greg Boyle calls her, the mystic who writes about mystics. She is a gift to the world. And her new book, Ordinary Mysticism, which is available now as an audiobook as well, which I have it as both. I loved it. Both. But also the audiobook is spectacular because her voice has such a wonderful quality. So she was here in town and we sat down with her. So this episode of We Made It Weird is me, Valerie and Mirabai talking about Ordinary Mysticism, which you should absolutely check out now. It is a balm for the soul.

[C]

The best. I think it is. I say this in this interview, but I think it is the book. I think if you're gonna read one spiritual and I'm putting that in air quotes book this year, it's Ordinary mysticism.

[A]

Well, because she's very down to earth. Talks about not believing in God, talks about doubt, talks about, you know, it's wonderful. We talk about that in the year. In the interview you'll get a sense she reads a little bit of it. But we wanted a little intro to just say, how's your father?

[C]

Yeah, how's your father?

[A]

Call your mother.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here we are. And my tour dates are still on PeteHomes.com I think, including Largo, which is coming up on November 21st. If you're going to be in LA and this weekend I'm in Raleigh, North Carolina, then we're going to go to Indianapolis. We have another Largo. We have Seattle, Portland. On December 20th we added a second show. We're going to be filming those shows so so come be a part of the taping. And then Phoenix, Arizona. All are on PeteHomes.com and if you like the show, please try a Pete's Pick. It's how we keep the lights on, as they say. These are things that we actually use and actually love. So support the show. Get one for you, get one for your friend.

[C]

Maybe Katie, roll that beautiful bean footage.

[A]

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[C]

Hello. We're sharing a mic like, like Steven.

[A]

Tyler and Joe Perry.

[C]

Joe Perry. I'm so impressed that you thought of that.

[A]

Do you know who that is?

[C]

No, but I'm Joe Perry, clearly.

[A]

Oh my God. From Aerosmith, where they always look like they're gonna kiss.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[A]

So anyway, we are joined today. This is so weird. I just want to acknowledge this whole situation.

[C]

We're sitting so close to each other.

[A]

Yeah. And you're still not quite close enough to the microphone. Okay, that's better.

[C]

But you have to think about when you're going to talk. Like if I'm. If I'm going to have to lean in every time I'm going to talk.

[A]

Yeah. Your body has to know you're talking before your mouth does.

[C]

And it's making me realize how often that's not the case. I'm just talking before I know it.

[A]

Usually, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's stilted and unnatural.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

But the reason why we're sharing a micro is because we're joined by our wonderful friend, Mirabestar. And there she is. You get your own microphone.

[B]

I know. I feel a little guilty watching you just, like, try this struggle.

[A]

Absolutely. See, I think we're the same, you and I, Mirabai, in that I'll do most anything. But I have to talk about it. You know what I mean? Like, I have to clear the air and go, like, our daughter is being babysat. There's another friend here. And, like, this is on Sunday, so there's a sort of, like, irregularity to it that only needs to be addressed. And then all of that will kind of dissolve away. But I have to mention it. I have to be like, this is weird, right?

[C]

Tell her about your feels weird. It feels like your bit about hell.

[A]

Oh, hell. What would make it hell is that we don't get breaks to talk about the torture. That's what makes it hell.

[B]

That's very insightful, Peter.

[A]

But do you agree with that?

[B]

I'm curious. What makes you think I'm like that, too?

[C]

Oh, yeah, that.

[A]

No, no. That you like to name things. Is that not true?

[B]

It is true. I feel so seen.

[A]

Oh, do you?

[B]

Yeah. No one's ever mentioned that about me because first, that may be my mom. Do we have to talk about this?

[A]

Yeah, I think we do. And there have been times where we've, like, vented about things, and it's really just naming things. It's not even judging it. Just saying, like, hey, this is what's happening. Have you noticed? And I absolutely hate being gas. Gaslit. Or, like, feeling like, well, yeah, gaslit. Like I'm the only one having an experience. The other reason I thought it might be you is because you say in your book. Something I really relate to is that you need to be invited. Like a vampire, you know, like, you don't want to do. Like, every book you've written is be at the behest of someone else. And I really relate to that. I don't want to necessarily be funny at a cocktail party, but if you invite me to be funny, then I feel very comfortable knowing my role and fulfilling that role. And that also seems akin to just wanting to let reality be what it is. You asked for this and then I did it. Or, like, this feels weird and I'm gonna name it and then I'll do it. But I need some. That. That is the invitation, if that makes sense. Me kind of going like, Here we are. And it's, it's not a normal setup. That's me inviting us into doing it, but not acting like it's just normal and looking the other way. Does that make sense?

[B]

That totally makes sense, yeah. And not acting like this is just the way it always is. You're having to. Having to name the dimensions and the contours.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Well, you just woke up on a Sunday, it's 9:30 in the morning and then we just like kind of thrust into a podcast that's kind of an irregular gear shift for, for anybody.

[C]

I think for us too, we have. For me, I'm the same way. But it's almost a correction from like the church, like being where there's so much that is unspoken and there's a little bit of like a phoniness where it's not. I never took the like kindness and the like reaching out as phony. I took the only kindness as like, it's just not the whole picture, I guess. So there's like a part of humanity that isn't being shown. And especially the church that I went to, it was all about getting the new people. So Sunday was like the big show and it had to go on perfectly without a hitch. And if there was like a typo in the slides, which it used to be my job to like do the slides, then it was like somebody might go to hell because of that. Really, they might walk out the door because it seems unprofessional here and then they'll never try church again. Like that was sort of the feeling, the narcissism. I know the real.

[A]

Wouldn't you say? We were talking. So anyway, Mirabai, you wrote this book to tie it to this because I feel like we could talk about that. But there is like a self, let's just say spiritual powers in all sorts of denominations. Spiritual wisdom and sort of like an ownership of reality is uniquely appealing to the deeply self centered. Is that. Or people seeking any type of power or control. Does that make any sense to you?

[B]

So you mean like the leadership of spiritual leadership?

[A]

Yeah, the people. Well, we see a lot of that like toxic stuff. But you, you take some. Well, Charles Manson is a good example if you've ever looked at some of. I know some of the things that Charles Manson has said is like spiritually sound. I know that's strange to say. And then you, you lure people into that. You blur the line between the teacher and the teaching and you make them worship you. And next thing you know you might be like murdering people or making poor sweet Valerie feel bad about getting like that just seems like an ego. Like a hard ego trip to me to be like, this is what we're doing. We're saving souls. I'm saving souls, and you just messed it up.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean, I'm really interested in dismantling all of that and I can't even relate to it. I'm way too insecure to feel like I could be in charge of anybody else's spiritual life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't even know how people do it. They have to just pretend, I guess. Maybe not everybody has self doubt, but I think everybody does.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So. Well, you have. One of my favorite parts of the book is where you specifically talk about how people will come to you with stars in their eyes. It's in the section of let your saints fuck up, I think. And how. How it's like, funny to you that they've. They're coming seeing you as this thing. And I love when you say that you're afraid of heights, so being on a pedestal feels really dangerous. It's a very, very good line.

[A]

Well, I. Actually, maybe we could start. It'd be a nice little invocation. Would you mind reading the. What you. I know you read it last night, but boy, I just think the listeners of this podcast will love it. Well, you probably know where it is. The. Guess what? That God isn't the God I believe in either. Oh, I just rewrote it. Would you mind? It's so good. And I think it's exactly. Well, you and I were talking about how I. I don't know, I sort of forget how talk about being welcomed. People need to be welcomed and let let known that they're safe, especially when talking about things like God. So I thought that this intro to this book was just absolutely perfect. A cozy cabin with a fireplace and warm soup. So it's wonderful. And I sometimes can make that mistake where I jump right to chapter 11 and it's like, no. People need to be let in and let known they're okay. So I would love for you to start that and then we can talk a little bit about the book.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you. Actually, I'll start from demystifying mysticism. It's short.

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[B]

Okay, so it was really very. The very introduction of the book. And I'm so glad you. You just spun that little picture that of the. The cozy fire and the. And the bowl of soup. That's what I want this book to be. With some spice.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not tame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not just chicken soup for the soul.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's. It's. It's got it. It's got teeth. It's got some edge.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So, demystifying mysticism. Welcome to the temple of your regular life. The garden of your days, the harbor where you catch your breath, the theater of your relationships. This is the terrain where you wake up and transform the sometimes chaotic, frequently fraught, unexpectedly beautiful domain of the everyday. You do not need to trek to a remote shrine in the Himalayas, enroll in expensive seminars, or convert to a new religion to connect with spirit. Your life is holy ground. And you are a mystic. I go on to say, and I'll just read this one last part because I want. I want you all to know that you are mystics. I know you are, because all it means to be a mystic is to have a direct experience of the sacred. You have had zillions of those. You may be having one right now. Some resonance in your bones that whispers, yes, I belong. I am intertwined with all that is. A mystic is someone who skips over the intermediaries and goes straight to God, meaning someone who experiences the divine as an intimate encounter rather than an article of faith. Then I think I'll just end with this, which is kind of related to the section you were talking about, Pete, that I call. Guess what? The God you don't believe in is the same God I don't believe in. So a mystical experience may or may not be connected to established spiritual traditions, theological structures, or faith communities. Mysticism is not about concepts. It's about communion with ultimate reality. And ultimate reality is not some faraway prize we claim when we have proved ourselves worthy to perceive it. Ultimate reality blooms at the heart of regular life. It shines through the cracks of our daily struggles and sings from the core of our deepest desires.

[A]

So many things come to mind, and I'd love to hear you talk about all of them. One is. I forget who said this, but they were like, given the choice, the ego or the separate self, or who we think we are, we'll always choose the journey over the destination. So there's this sort of, like. I don't want to say it's unholy. There's nothing wrong with it, but we would love to prolong and put enlightenment. Or in this case, being a mystic or having a divine encounter or feeling one with everything, or intertwined, as he so beautifully said would like to say. So I was just reading Rupert this morning. He's like, you know, we start by seeking, like, chocolate cake and sex and cigarettes and booze, and that's. That's fine. And then that kind of stops working. And then a lot of people go towards a spiritual thing, and then you start seeking more subtle objects. And it might be a teacher or a teaching or. Or a retreat or a type of breathing or a mantra, but they are just like other. And then enlightenment, they're all just like more subtle cake, wouldn't you say? It's just another thing that isn't here yet and when it comes, will be okay. Right. And isn't that what you're inviting us to with this book is like, I always think of Ramana Maharshi. When he died, they say, don't leave us. And he says, where could I go? That's it. Like, if there is a thing called divine reality, if there is a unifying love, undulating or holding everything together, it must be here right now. Right?

[B]

It must be, Pete. I mean, I.

[A]

Because where else could it be?

[B]

Exactly. I don't know. Anywhere else. And that. And the truth is, I've had a lot of death in my life. A lot of people I love have died. And so I know how fleeting this little incarnation of ours is. And if I can't harness the love here and now and ride that through this lifetime, I'm not interested. I've never. It's never made sense to me, soul sense, to hold out for some kind of ultimate reward for all my hard spiritual work. But it took me a long time before I felt the confidence to challenge that paradigm. You know, it's in all the religious traditions, so who am I to challenge it? In Christianity, it's salvation. In Islam, too, pretty much. In Hinduism, it's enlightenment. In Buddhism, it's awakening. There's always some kind of spiritual prize and that we can make ourselves worthy of if we do the hard work. And it just was like, yes, of course that. You know, they're all saying it must be true, and who am I to question it? But here I am, I am questioning it with all my might and with some glee.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And playfulness.

[A]

Well, forgive me for always and incessantly bringing up Rupert. But he would say, no person is enlightened. He goes, there is no separate self to become enlightened. So you could say only awareness is made of what we call enlightenment. But there is no person that, like, achieves that and then goes around and, like is forever having a blissful experience and never experiences stress or doubt or anything ever again. What we're able to do is like antenna, maybe is tune into that thing, that it itself is complete, and we can kind of sweep away the illusion of our separate self and just kind of merge with that. But does that fall anywhere in what you're talking about?

[B]

I think I'm ultimately a non dualist, and those of you listen to this podcast know what that means. I mean, I really do feel in my bones that there is only one thing and that it's made of love. And so it is a field. It's not an individual self that gets to wake up and lord over the rest of us. I do feel that there's some value in spiritual practice, though. So, like, I'm really busy dismantling religiosity in this book and I'm having fun doing it. And does, does that mean that I don't believe in the power of mindfulness meditation or yoga asanas or sacred dance and chanting and reading spiritual books? No, I love all those things. My heart blossoms when I engage with these perennial spiritual practices and teachings. I just don't believe that they should boss me or anybody else around and that they, they become our, our gifts and our, our path rather than a set of strictures and rules to tell us that we're doing it wrong. I don't feel there's any way to do the spiritual path wrong. And there is great value in showing up for the, the work we do on ourselves because it makes us more loving. I mean, if it does. Teresa Vavila, who I've had the great privilege of translating, was investigated by the Spanish Inquisition because she had Jewish roots. She, she was born into a Jewish family in, at the time of the Inquisition, it was very dangerous. And so she was having all of these wild spiritual experiences, raptures and ecstasies and visions and voices. You know, people in, in our times would probably commit her to, or put her, put her on some kind of medication, but she was claiming to have this communion with, with Christ. And so of course she was investigated because of, of her questionable heritage. And she said, you don't even need to bother because I've already subjected my own experiences to scrutiny. She was very, she was very discerning about everything that happened to her. And she'd say, after each vision or, or ecstasy, I would talk to God and I would say, hey, God, is this from you or is. Am I, like they're suggesting, being tricked by the devil, or am I mentally ill? They called it melancholia was the kind of overarching term for mental illness. And then she would listen in to try to determine if her own experience was valid. She was. It was self verifying for Teresa. She didn't need any external authorities to tell her whether or not her spiritual experiences were real. But her main criterion was did the experience expand my heart with more love for God? If it did, it was real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I've always tried to use that.

[A]

Rupert coming. And I loved everything you just. I love everything you say. But Rupert says, how do we know that solipsism that we're not. If we're. If experience is the key and is the ultimate evidence of everything to be true, we have to. To test it in our experience. Very mystical approach. How do I know that I'm not the only consciousness and you're all just in my dream? And Rupert gets that question a lot. And he says something very similar. He says, when I've lived my life as if I'm the only person, it doesn't reward me with love, beauty and happiness. And I was just like, oh, yeah, so simple. That's such a. It's so simple and like it's such a fun philosophy philosophical debate to get into. And he's just like, yeah, try it. Live like you're the only person. It's a bummer. It sucks. So it's like what Jesus would call the fruit of the spirit. It's like it didn't pay out. And it's what she's saying. I also want Val, I'm aware that you. You haven't talked a lot yet, but I'm going to give her one thing to comment on.

[C]

No, please.

[A]

The Heisenberg principle. I'm just kidding.

[B]

I happen to know what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah, isn't that wild? Well, that's a good one for spiritual people to know about. We love co opting that. Meaning I love co opting that. I don't fully understand it, but I'll be like, well, it's like the Heisenberg principle anyway, the quote. And boy, I'd love to be able to credit it, but I can't. It's what the ultimate truth can't be sought after. Right. It's kind of that what we were just saying. Where could I go? What could this moment be other than the whole thing? It's. It's right here and now. But then the paradox is only seekers find it. Have you heard that?

[B]

Yeah, I think some variation of that. Yeah, I think it's exactly what I'm talking about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because it's one thing to just recognize that everything is Sacred. And. And that's great. That's beautiful. But what makes this a mystical experience is when we fully show up for it as consciously as possible, with our hearts as open as possible.

[A]

And it's not a mistake. That's something Val and I talk about endlessly, is the forgetting. And the remembering isn't a mistake. It's sort of that. It's what makes it. It's the sheet music. It's the dance of the whole thing, the in and the out. In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus says, I am a wave and a rest. And I don't think that's exactly what he was saying, but I'm just saying, like, there's something about the whole thing is a wave and a rest, and we are in that same system. So as much as I'd just like to be permanently cooked and baked and. Really, who wants that? It's me. It's Pete. He wants to be the special boy. I want to be on the front page of the paper being like, pete did it. He knows he's who he really is. What a special man. And trumpets, Blair. But, like, really, there's nothing wrong in the remembering and the forgetting. Wouldn't you agree?

[B]

I love that you two talk about that.

[A]

Yeah, well, Val has to remind me all the time because I get. I wouldn't say hard on myself, but I'll be like, I just had it, and then my mom texted me, and now I don't have it. And it really can be upsetting to the achiever in me.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, that's. Everything in nature is the clue that that's correct. It's tides going in and out. It's seasons changing. It's our own breath moving in and out. Like that is the permission. And you said it last night. I loved it so much. It's this idea. Yeah. That you can achieve something, and then forever you will be dipped in and in bliss and connected is what a lot of these spiritual traditions are promising. And you said, you know, you'll have a moment of it, you know, like making eggs or doing the dishes. And then when you're not in that, that's also okay. And I. I think that the remembering, you know, every once in a while, I'll have, you know, a good therapy session or some sort of breakthrough with my family or some moment that feels like, wow, there's real healing. This is like a healing moment. And in those moments, that's a portal for me. And I will see it. You know, I'll feel like I see it. All so clearly. And I go, oh, my gosh, what a gift it is to experience healing. And that, that, that feeling where, like your pain, your grief, your trauma is a door to the one real thing, which is love. And you can't have that without the first part, like it had. The grief and the trauma are absolutely essential for that experience to crack your heart open, like you say. So I often see the forgetting and remembering as like, what. It just feels so good to remember. And we don't have that unless we forget. So it's like it's a gift to get to come back home again and again.

[A]

Do you have something to rewrite?

[C]

You're too.

[A]

You're too good just sitting there listening. Yeah, I. I mean, this is kind of out there, and that's not your ordinary mysticism. But if you imagine, as I like to a thought experiment, if there is this perfect awareness that's just full of itself and complete, and it were to dance a dance or play a game or put on a show for itself, it would want to do. Want, you know what I mean? It would be in its nature to explore what would it be like to forget and to remember and to forget and to remember. Does that, does that make sense?

[B]

It's. That's always made sense to me. You know, I. I grew up around Llama foundation in the mountains of New Mexico. The. The spiritual community that's still thriving to this day, where Ram Dass created Be Here Now. And there is a big banner across the. The threshold of the kitchen that says remember. So that. I mean, in a way, I grew up with this ordinariness of the mystical path with just that paradigm, you know, just you're walking into the kitchen to make a cup of tea or cook a pot of soup for 40 people. Remember. Remember. It's a Sufi. It's. It's very much a Sufi practice, the practice of remembrance Dicker. That you remember the name of God. And that's what prayer beads are for, you know, to just continuously evoke the name, the divine name, so that it then just rides on your breath and carries you through the. The remembrance and the forgetting. And yes, the forgetting, that's just. I guess what we're up to here is deconstructing or dismantling or lighting on fire. This sense of you're doing it wrong when you're forgetting. And I think that's what you two are so beautifully onto here, is that the forgetting is part of the delicious dance of, of coming back home. As you beautifully say, Valerie, to, To what is true, which is love. And you can't stay in a heightened state all the time. And I don't think we're, we're meant to, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This gets a little lava lamp, smoking a joint in college. But if you were always in a heightened state, it wouldn't be a heightened state. It only exists in contrast. And I know that's very basic. I'm not saying that that's going to blow anyone's mind. But if you were constantly blissed out, how long before that just becomes your baseline? Which is actually kind of interesting. So much of my non dual practice is trying to explore the nature of awareness and to recognize that it's, it's made of peace. That like your being or the knowing with which you know, your experience is actually not agitated. So it's peaceful. It's not seeking or resisting. You could call it happy and fulfilled, but we keep seeking happiness and peace and fulfillment. And it's actually the seeking of it that's keeping us from recognizing that, that we are it. If that. I know that's very basic, but does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's why so many of us are drawn to be of service. That's another thing I challenge in this book is the idea that, you know, the left hand should not know what the right hand is doing. Or I'm not sure what the Christian metaphor is, but in Judaism, the most, you know, the highest mitzvah is the anonymous giving and all the spiritual. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says to Arjuna, you know, do everything you do as an offering to me and do not be attached to the fruits of your actions. Again, this is the stuff I grew up with. I'm like, yeah, yeah, of course. Don't, don't be attached. Don't, don't expect anything. Be of serve. Let your service be pure. And I am finally realizing that it's okay to feel good when you do good. Not only is it okay, it's wonderful to have these feelings of pleasure and connectedness. But one of the things I think that draws us to service is that we forget ourselves.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And that's such, such a relief. So the other day I was, I got to the incredible privilege of going into the men's colony of Central California and federal prison, where a lot of these guys were there for life, for crimes, and for experiences of suffering. You know, as Father Greg Boyle says, it's. There's. I've never met a bad person. I've only met people who are deeply wounded. And Richard Warren, everybody else saying, hurt people, hurt people. It was like you knew that these people had experienced suffering unlike anything that I, as a privileged, white, non religious Jewish person could ever imagine. But what I noticed by spending the day in the prison with them, I did writing with them and grief work, is that I forgot all about my individual neurotic issues for those blessed eight hours. It was just. It was a. It was a flow state. It was a bliss state. It was a feeling of being all lined up. But the best part was it wasn't about me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Teresa Vavile. Do you mind if I come back to her for a sec?

[A]

No.

[B]

So her great mystical masterwork is called the Interior Castle. And I had the great honor of translating it into, I hope an accessible English. And there are seven chambers or dwellings of the interior castle. And I'm going to outline them all right now. No, just kidding. But the seventh one, and it. The. The seven dwellings of the interior castle are really a map to come home to union with the beloved, as she calls God. Very Sufi kind of term. But she was Christian mystic. In the center of your own soul. That's what the interior castle is. God dwells in the. In the center of your own being. And our life is a journey to return to union with the beloved. But the seventh dwelling is about is union. And what happens, she says, when we finally attain union with the beloved. The only thing that makes sense from there is to return. It's like the Bodhisattva vow in Buddhism to the world to be of service. And I get it. The older I get, the less interested I am actually in my own enlightenment or even my own psychological healing. I mean, it's. It's a nice byproduct of doing the work, but it's not all fixed yet. But I'm not that interested anymore. I would love to forget myself in being present for the other more and more and more.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[C]

Yeah. I love, I love that description of service and especially also just like right now and how divided things feel here and like to. Even as you were saying that, I was like, wow, I, I'm. I'm thinking of it so much like the, the other. I'm thinking of the other so much right now. And, you know, that's probably the gift that you gave you and Sister Greta gave those men is like seeing them as who they are and not what they did. And what a. It turned out to be a gift for you as well, because there's less separation maybe than there would be if you did that. And that's. Yeah, that's a real important thing for me to remember right now. Yeah, this is a little bit of a pivot, but it made me think of it with the Teresa of Avila thing, sort of. I think you talk about it mostly in Wild Mercy, but I just. I've caught myself trying to describe the way of the feminine mystic to people as eloquently as you do, which is so silly because who can be as eloquent as you? But. But if you could talk about a little bit the, like getting to the non dualism through the relationship. The separation like through the relationship to the beloved, which maybe first requires sort of a feeling of separateness to then. You know what I mean?

[B]

I think I know exactly what you mean.

[C]

Well, what a pal. Because I did not do a good job leading you in.

[A]

I knew. I knew you meant too. I think we all knew what you meant. Using duality to get to non duality, using the moisture of the heart. Well, Ram Dass used to talk about that. He's like, we're speaking in dualistic terms because otherwise the gears just get all rusty and they stop working. You need to lubricate it with devotion. Yeah, with devotion. Yeah.

[B]

That's very. Ram Dass. Yeah. Thanks for that question, Valerie. I think it's. It has to do with. I think the human impulse is to love and yes, certain Buddhist paths and. And Advaita Vedanta or paths of non duality. And the, you know, the Vedic traditions can get. Can get really dry. And that's be. That's that lack of moisture that you're speaking of. So the mystics. The reason I love the mystics of all the spiritual traditions, especially the poets, and most mystics actually are poets, is that they're crying out with love, longing for union with God as beloved. That love, love or beloved language really speaks, I think, to our universal heart. And I've had people say to me, and this was back when I still doubted that myself enough to worry about when they would say, say, you know, that's kind of immature. Spiritual state is to long for God because everything is God and we're not separate and we never have been and we never will be. But. But there's something about reclaiming the longing over and over again as sacred. It's sort of like when you were speaking about grief and having to walk through the portal of pain to get to that sacred landscape. And I think that's also what you're. What you were saying, Pete, when you distilled it as Using non duality. I mean, using duality to get to non duality. I would call it devotion. You know, my name, Mirabai. I was named for the poet saint, 16th century, which is same century as Teresa Vavila in Spain, but in India. Mirabai, the devotional poet Ram Dass gave me that name when I was 15. And I had been in a play about this story of Mirabai's life. And Mirabai was madly in love with Krishna, the God of love. And that is my. I feel like that's my spiritual root is this delicious longing. You know, Mira's crying out in the jasmine garden. And then the peacock opens its tail in the. In the rain and the beloved comes home. And, you know, all of this incredibly evocative, sensual language is. It's my food. It's my spiritual food. And I think what you're asking is this, Val. Is that what the connection between that love longing and that sense of. Of that felt sense of union is that when we love and call out for the presence that you may not believe in, in with your mind, which, by the way, I don't half the time, at least half the time, I don't believe in God. True, true confessions. When we call out for God and then we do the devotional practices, in my case could be just a silent meditation. It could be chanting, it could be sex. Whatever I do in a devotional way, then I have that blessed moment, that fleeting moment of forgetting that I'm separate. The devotion itself waters my heart enough that, that. That the blossoming gets me out of the mud of the lotus's roots and into that. That opening to the. To the vast sky of love. Is that too esoteric?

[A]

No, I love that. Richard Rohr says that. He says great pain and great love. No, Yeah, I love that. Of course. But he goes, no, no one can be in love with an energy. And I would agree with that. Well, I think when we're doing devotion and when we say the mind in spiritual conversations, like serious spiritual conversations, we usually mean it like we're putting it down, like it's a bad thing. But the mind and our senses and stuff, this is how we're engaging with the world. It's how we experience it. So when I say that devotion or duality invites the mind into it, the mind can't experience a pure empty, the light of pure knowing. It's not invited to that party, but it can be invited to a subject object relationship. So when I think of Christ, for example, and just imagine that person and I'm smiling at them with love. And they're smiling at me with love. That does something that includes my faculties in that transformation. When I meditate or whatever and go into that space of luminous emptiness, the mind didn't get to go. And that's, that's very. That can be frustrating for the mind. So that's when we bring in Christ or Richard or Maharaja, whoever you want to just smile at and open your heart to and with. But I think you need to invite them. Let's go. This is very silly in a super serious spiritual conversation, but we do have to pay the. Pay the bills. That's what they say on FM radio. But we do ads. Maribou and I were just talking about this the way that I feel okay about this. One, it's my job. We have to have a job. And two, we only do ads for things we actually love. So if you like this show, sometimes sweet people say, how do we support the show? The best way to do is try one of these things. I love them. Maybe you'll love them. And that does help us pay Katie and Joe and everybody. So here they are. And then we'll be back with more. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I love talk therapy. We talk a lot about talk therapy, which is double talk on this podcast. And you know how grateful I am for Dr. Gary Penn, whose book is available now. We always say that Dr. Gary Penn changed my life. Talk therapy changed my life. And this month, being all about gratitude, along with the person I just shouted out, Dr. Gary Penn, there's another person we don't get to thank enough, and that is ourselves. It's sometimes hard to remind ourselves that we are trying to make the most sense out of everything. And in this crazy world, that is not easy. So here is a reminder to send some thanks to the people in your life, including yourself. Talk therapy, we always say, is the great is greater than the sum of its true parts. Talking to a licensed professional can unburden you can give you strategies to cope and navigate your life. Whether it's codependence, a breakup, a new job, a fresh start, anxiety. These things are really, really help to talk therapy. 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And we're back. I wrote something down to start. Do you have something? I did, but it seems like you have something. Go ahead.

[C]

Well, but it is like I wrote mine down. Okay. It is a continuation of what we were talking about so, you know, we don't have to get back into it. But it. That made me think of. I feel like what we're explaining with the duality to non duality thing really is like, I think sex is actually an incredibly good example of that where in order to have desire and you'll will, you know, talk more about this when you watch my short film later. But in order. In order to have desire and arousal, you need separation. Like, you know, when you see your partner who you have been in a long relationship with it and sometimes it can be so intimate that you. They feel like just an extension of you. And then you see them do either something that you have never seen them do or just see them at a party being their own autonomous self. It's so attractive because there is more of this separation. And then so you need that almost to get into the doorway of sex. And the ultimate goal of sex is to merge back into one thing again.

[A]

You're so right. That's why we go out on date nights and we dress up. It's so we look like grownups and like you can see me, you know, going over and getting you a water. And I look like an autonomous separate man, not just some guy in PJs on the couch next to you. It's nice to. And I. I have a theory about that, but I won't go into it. Kind of cosplay the separation. We are incredibly close. We are spending all of our time together. But let's go to a fancy restaurant and look presentable and dolled up so that. And sit across from each other. Let's not sit on the same side of the table. Let's sit across from each other and let's play that. Let's pretend it's our first date and try and have a. A good conversation. Not just like a conversation and that's just leaning into. I think that is kind of one of the clues of the universe. I think that's right on.

[B]

Brilliant. I love that analogy.

[A]

It's so good. So good.

[C]

Thanks guys.

[A]

Did you have anything Mirabai? I got all excited.

[B]

Last thing I would say is, you know, we were talking about Devotion as a non dual. I mean as a, as a state of duality that leads to non duality. It just. Then our hearts sort of melt and pour into that one. But then the other side of that equation is having experienced a non dual state that feels permeated by love, characterized by love. If it's, if it has any character at all, then the urge is to praise that and then we come back into separation. But because the devotional response to that delicious state of merging is Yay is Hooray, Hallelujah. And that praising is the beautiful part of non duality. I mean, of duality.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I love that. I am curious. I haven't heard you say that, that you spend half your time not believing. Is it because things go so goofy in the world, there's so much suffering and pain or what is your, what knocks you off that track for lack of a better way?

[B]

I think it's the way I grew up. You know, my parents were non religious Jews and not as many American Jews are, but not only non religious, they were anti religious. So they were, they were social justice activists during the Vietnam War era and they felt they didn't realize how Jewish this is. Actually you would never know from the current situation in Israel and Palestine. But a prevailing value of Judaism is, is social justice and being of service to the most vulnerable. Like we can't know God in Judaism. You can't know the unknowable God. It's too awesome and beyond all comprehension. But you can experience God by the way you treat other people and the earth. You know, in relationship, in community is where you know God. That's why during the high holy days, for instance, the days of awe, when you're, when you're doing a kind of spiritual accounting of your year, you are making things right with individual people. Like amends in the, in the 12 step program, you are making amends so that you can return. That's the word teshuva, come back into right relationship with God. So that. So in a lot of ways my parents activism was very Jewish, even though they thought they were rejecting Judaism. But one of the main values in my family was questioning everything, which is also very Jewish. Questioning everything especially and including your spiritual beliefs. If you, if you insist that you know anything about ultimate reality, you're fooling yourself and, and other people as well if you're trying to convert them to your way of, of thinking and believing. So I, I grew up suspicious of belief systems and that's my default. And I go back to it on a regular basis. And I don't mind because I feel like the only God I can really hang my hat on is a God that I keep shaking out of the box and letting be beyond my small ability to. To name it or describe it or define it. Yeah. And. And so that's why in that section that you had asked me to read. I'm sorry I didn't get to read it, but the God I. You don't believe in is the same God I don't believe in. Came really from. From my upbringing. Anytime people think that they. That they know, I. I. My side, I, you know, happens.

[A]

Right. And that kind of goes back to what we were saying at the beginning. When you're saving souls and you know, who's in and who's out. And that. That can be that perversion that comes with. From an earnest seeking themselves kind of just gets a little distorted down the line.

[B]

Right. And. And the personified version of. Of a, you know, a white male God who it is keeping track of all of our. Our lustful thoughts. There we go. I was trying.

[A]

This is what I was hoping.

[B]

Trying not to quote myself.

[A]

Yeah. No, I hope you did this. That was specifically the part we. We reject the idea that God is keeping very accurate records of every lustful thought, but. But refuses to intervene with genocide. Yeah, that's. I mean, I've just never heard it put so perfectly and so lean. It's like that is a huge, you know, conflict in your brain. You're like, God is up to date. Excel spreadsheet on every mistake, and the punishment is forthcoming. And yet in the world, the climate.

[B]

Catastrophe is continuing to.

[A]

Right, right. Very frustrating. What? This is kind of a big one. When we talk about. You know, it's funny, Rupert uses this image that I think you'll like. I always think about the bathtub in your house. I don't know why isn't it pink? Or like. It's kind of like a New Mexico kind of Earth tone. That's how I'm remembering it.

[B]

No, Pete, it's not.

[A]

Don't. Let me have it.

[C]

Get it right.

[A]

Let me have it.

[C]

It is special, though.

[A]

Yeah, it seems like a special. It's by the window. Anyway. Yes, it made me think you would, like. What color is it?

[B]

It's.

[A]

It can't just be white. It's white.

[B]

Wow. But it is, like, among plants and it. And it goes. It opens from the bathroom to the bedroom.

[A]

Your house has the vibe of a place that would have a bathtub that is like an earthy Pink.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But it's not.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

That's just how I picture all of New Mexico. You all have, like, Earth pink.

[C]

Adobe.

[A]

Yeah, Adobe style.

[B]

I get that.

[A]

But Rupert talks about sinking into our being as, like, we stop doing anything. We stop extending our attention out, and we rest back into ourselves. It's like a. He doesn't use this very often, but he talks about being in the bright sunlight, and then you go in a dark room, you walk inside, and you're blind for a while. He's like, in. The solution to that is actually to do nothing. You just wait and let it slowly go away, and then you can see. But the other one that I like is, he says, resting in your being or your true self or knowing or whatever is like sinking into a hot bath after working in the cold all day, and you just kind of rest and sink into it. And when you're in that space. And Teresa of Avila and all these other mystics got in trouble for saying that their nature. Meister Eckhart, too, like, the eye with which I look at God is the same eye that God looks at me. So he's saying, you know, we're getting very close to saying I am God, which is not, as Rupert would say, something you should never say. But he also would say that it's not blasphemous to say that your nature, the ground of your being which you have access to, experiential access, if not intellectual access, you can rest in. And as that ultimate awareness. He would say, that's not blasphemy. He would say what's blasphemy is actually to say that you stand apart from God, which is actually really interesting if you think. If you look at it visually, like, here's a circle, and here's God, and then you draw another circle inside of it or outside of it, and go. And this is me, like, sustained, separate from the source. That's. He would say that's blasphemy. He wouldn't yell it like I do. Isn't that good? He says it over and over as. As he does all his great points, which is really helpful because you have to hear him about a thousand times. But that's actually, to say that you're independent of ultimate reality is absurd.

[B]

That's this book.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, boy. Good.

[B]

Yeah. I love that. Tucking it in my pocket.

[A]

And that is the. That's what you're driving at.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Not only that, everything is sacred. You know, the subtitle of the book, Ordinary Mysticism, is your life is sacred ground. And it's not only that everything is holy, everything is an access point or a portal to the divine, but that you, each one of us, is a living meeting place for the rendezvous with the beloved. You don't have to earn it, although certain spiritual practices help. What does Jim Finley say? Remove any op. He doesn't say. He says it much more poetically than this, but removes any obstacles for the possibility of that divine encounter. Not any obstacles, but helps clear the space so that if it is to happen, you'll be available. So it's. When I say that everybody is a mystic, I don't mean you're walking around in a state of union with the beloved at all. At all times, but it's you. You're made for this. You're made for love. And it can happen while hiking on a trail or rolling through the park in your wheelchair or making a salad or playing with a child. I mean, there's so many holy moments that are available to us every day for this, this rendezvous, for this. For this encounter, and were each perfectly designed to. To meet it.

[A]

I had an experience, and it was very profound, but it was the feeling, just off of what you said, that it's as if we've set up a booby trap for ourselves. It's a divine booby trap. That we're. That we tricked ourselves. Like, you trip into something and you fall in a hole, and in the hole, there you are. There's the encounter, or you're playing with your daughter. And that is not decidedly or, like, set aside as a spiritual thing. But I love that you said playing with your kid. Because I got up early, Leila got up second, and we had quite a while together. And I'm gonna get emotional, but there are just these flashes of recognition on her face. And we share it, you know, that, like, divine. She's forgetting that she's my kid, and I'm forgetting that I'm her dad. And we look at each other in the middle of a game, and there's just a flash. And that's the right word for it. It's very brief, and you don't talk about it, but just for a second or another, maybe more relatable, you can have that. Having sex or making love or listening to music. There's just a flash where everything goes away. And welcoming that and claiming. Putting the flag of. That's. That's spiritual, too. It's really special.

[B]

Naming it. It comes back to what we talked about.

[A]

Yeah, naming it.

[B]

I think that's what makes it mystical. It's not just seeing a beautiful sunset and enjoying it, but. But naming it, like you just did with. With playing with your daughter this morning. And I'm sitting next to you and I watched your eyes fill with tears just now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. And the reason I mentioned playing with a child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm staying with you, with you guys, Pete and Val and Lila is. Is in this house. And I'm having that experience with her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like this morning, I came downstairs and she threw herself, and we threw ourselves into each other's arms. And she didn't just, like, hug me and leave. She just. She hugged me and held on, and our hearts were, like, connected. And that was an incredibly mystical moment. It changed me, and it partly was and did, because I showed up for it.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So there is a little bit of an intentionality. There's a little bit of participation to it, but that's exactly what I mean. You could. And I have played with Leela and probably missed. It can be a little heartbreaking to admit that, but, like, probably missed those flashes. But then when you are available. So this goes back. We've gone full circle. Reading books like this Ordinary Mysticism available now. Or chanting like we did last night. I hadn't chanted in a long, long time.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

And there it was. And I was like, oh, right. I love this. Those things matter. And I had a very profound. That experience that I had in New Mexico, actually, where I was on a psychedelic. But when I came back, I kept saying, it matters. It matters. It matters. Meaning, like, what we do matters. We talked about it later. We were like. It was like the Jesus trip. It wasn't the Christ trip necessarily, although I would argue that it was that, too. Meaning Christ is the one with everything trip, and Jesus is like, of Nazareth, the guy trip. But I had certainly both. But I came back and I was weeping, and I was going, it matters. It matters. It matters. Like what we read, what we say, what we do, how we play with our children, how we talk to one another, how we hug. All of that is informing all of it, and it was really profound for me. Valerie.

[C]

Well, I was just gonna say that as a spiritual practice, though, showing up for the moments is, like, the least amount required as far as the other spiritual practices, you know, like, you don't. This is what I love about it. There is a moment in this book I wish I could remember or find it where you end up saying, like, you know, every God can be found in everything, even the temples, which is sort of a great way to, like, turn it back, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. I'm. I'm probably botching it, but that.

[A]

Sorry, Richard. Transcend and include. That's what you're really doing. You're not just burning it down behind you, but you're saying that as well. George Harrison says that, too. He goes, God isn't an old man in the sky, but he also is like. He was really? Yeah, it's a really. It's in the documentary Scorsese made about him. And I was like, that's the paradox, where he's like, you know, it's not what they told you, but it also is what they told you. And I was like, oh, I hear you. Go ahead, Val.

[C]

That was a great impression, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really good.

[A]

I feel like it was more Paul.

[C]

I honestly don't know the difference, really, between the two of them, of their dialects, but I just. It just makes me feel like the. This is. This book really is the good news. Like, again, in my tradition growing up, we always talked about that. It's good news. It's good news. Jesus came to save you the gospel. Exactly. And this. This book, to me, I told you yesterday, I'm like, this is the book. So anything after this is just sort of bonus. But to me, this is the good news, is that it's available to anyone. You're already doing it. You have everything you need. You don't have to commit to meditating 20 minutes a day. Or you can, you know, you. You don't have to. To, you know, start chanting or. The thing is, is that it's probably already in the things that you love doing.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Which is probably why you love doing them. Sorry, another Rupert thing, but I already told this story on the pod. But he was like, we're talking about comedy. And he was like, well, that's helping people taste their true nature. He's like, when they're laughing, they vanish and they taste. He uses the word taste, which Kyle Kanad made fun of me, but they experience their true nature. That. Not to degrade the flash that I share with Leila, but in that moment, we're experiencing our true nature. And with music or rock climbing or a sunset or laughing or whatever it might be. So I think you're onto something. It's like the things you really enjoy that really make you feel. And the fruits of them are very positive. Those are probably deeply spiritual.

[C]

Yeah, well, without you trying, it's not my point. It's in the book.

[A]

That's your point, Valerie.

[B]

Well, is it. You know, the whole idea of this being the book or some kind of good news, gospel thing is that I feel as a writer, like I'm tapping into the wisdom of the collective. And this is just my particular kind of, you know, slightly overblown, lyrical, poetic language. And this is the. And very embodied language. You know, this is the way I'm describing what I'm hearing all around me. I just feel like a. A spokesperson or an amplifier of. Of the wisdom of the collective that's rising right now that needs to say, yes, everything is sacred and everyone belongs. We're all saying it in different. In different ways. That's what makes it gospel, is that we're. We're tapping into that universal voice that's rising, and that's the definition, from my understanding of Torah in the Jewish tradition. Torah is a living body of wisdom that we all contribute to, and that's what keeps it alive. It's not the five books of Moses, you know, only, although it. It also is. And it's. It's all the wisdom of all of us, and I'm trying to draw that out of y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

Well, you're doing a great, great job. Thank you Very, very good.

[A]

Is there any. Anything else would like to say? We're. We're right here at an hour. That was a kind of a perfect end. Seeing as we don't have a lot of time.

[C]

Is there, like, any, like, promoting? We can do this book tour that you're on right now.

[A]

Anything coming up if this comes out on Friday?

[B]

Let's see. I'll be. I'll be at Trinity Wall street for a big book signing in New York City on the. On November 24th. Okay, that would be great. A little something in maui in the 29th, I think.

[A]

But it's all on.

[B]

It's all on nearbystar.com.

[A]

How many hours in that star?

[B]

11.

[C]

Star.

[A]

That's if you were a pirate. Well, I love the book. I love you. I'm so glad we got to do this. And. Oh, we can have Mirabai say it. I know we usually say it. Or Val usually says it.

[C]

We usually say keep it crispy. But you. You get to this time, since you're the guest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Keep it crispy.

[A]

How many hours in that crispy? Thank you, Mirabai.

[B]

Oh, thank you both. I love you so much. And thank you all for just listening in to this very intimate hangout.

[A]

Yeah. Little slice of life.