We Made It Weird #260

Summary

Podcast Summary: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Episode: We Made It Weird #260

Date: July 24, 2026
Host: Pete Holmes with Val
Theme: Secret Weirdness, Vulnerability, and Embracing Brokenness

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Episode Overview

In this special episode of "We Made It Weird," Pete Holmes and his wife Val dive deeply into themes of vulnerability, shame, self-acceptance, and what it means to “outgrow” life’s challenges instead of forcefully solving them. They use candid personal stories, literary insights (from the Odyssey to Mary Oliver), and spiritual/metaphysical references to explore why embracing brokenness and emotional honesty may be the real path to wholeness. This episode blends humor, philosophy, and heart, making it a memorable, comforting listen for anyone grappling with self-worth, identity, and the messiness of being human.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dictation Misadventures & Relationship Dynamics

[01:12 - 02:30]

• Pete and Val start with a light, humorous look at texting dictation mishaps, involving their daughter Lela jumping into voice texts.
• This leads to the idea that family life (and texting life) is best when it’s messy and interrupted by real humanity.

2. Metaphors of Gender, Attraction, and Power

[02:30 - 07:30]

• Pete riffs on societal shifts in how women dress (e.g., "showing the bottom third of their ass at the airport") and how men react.
  • Pete: “It's funny to break one of your legs and just kind of walk around bleeding. And it makes us into, like, a frenzy.” [04:00]
• Val introduces the metaphor of training a dog (Beau) to point out perceptions of control and desire between men and women—questioning, who’s really in charge?
  • Val: “Like, he is losing his mind over this tiny piece of turkey, and I don't give a shit about it. So here you go.” [05:12]
• The conversation morphs into an exploration of agency, objectification, and reclaiming one’s body/power.

3. Internalized Values, Feminism, and Personal Expression

[07:15 - 10:56]

• Both discuss generational/cultural influences: From Puritan sensibilities to 1960s feminist critiques.
  • Pete: “There are parts of the world where women are still shrouded and covered. ...I'm acting like it's all lax.” [12:01]
• Pete reflects on his own upbringing and how internalized Christianity colors his response to body image and sexuality.
• The conversation highlights the tension between self-expression vs. societal conditioning and self-objectification.

4. Patriarchy, Fear of Female Sexuality, and the Witch Trials

[13:29 - 15:02]

• Val connects the historical roots of the patriarchy (witch trials as fear of female sexuality) with today’s complicated relationship to female power and sensuality.
  • Val: “A huge connection of, like, why the witch... trials happened is fear of female sexuality. ...Because there's so much power.” [13:58]

5. Power, Persuasion, and Pop Culture

[16:13 - 17:09]

• Referencing Beyoncé’s “Who Run the World? Girls”, they explore the motif of feminine persuasion and innate power:
  • Val quoting Beyoncé: “My persuasion can rule a nation. You'll do anything for me. That's why girls run the world.” [16:20]
• Side tangent: Pete comedically compares the archetype of Odysseus to Good Will Hunting and the simplicity of cinematic names. [17:09 - 18:08]

6. The Dilemma of Principles vs. Freedom

[21:51 - 23:44]

• Val and Pete acknowledge personality types drawn to rule-following and principle, debating the merits and pitfalls of both strictness and flexibility:
  • Val: “There are personality types where they like love being principled. They get off on it. It feels good... to have rules.” [21:51]

7. Veganism, Judgment, and Spiritual Identity

[23:44 - 26:42]

• Referencing Rupert Spira and Ram Dass, Pete and Val tackle the righteous attachment to veganism and the spiritual pitfalls of defining oneself by one's “goodness.”
  • Pete: “He said, it's just another identity. ...Everything is an identity. And it all belongs.” [25:50]
• The idea: true acceptance is holding all experiences (even conflicting ones) gently and compassionately.

8. Outgrowing vs. Solving Problems

[29:10 - 36:03]

• Inspired by Richard Rohr and the Carl Jung quote that “some problems can only be outgrown,” Pete reflects on facing rejection and personal crisis—not with solutions, but with humility and surrender.
  • Pete: “You realize it's less personal. ...The vegan moves to Italy... slowly starts eating cheese. You know what I mean? It's like, no fucking shit.” [32:06]
• The focus is on spiritual growth through “broken humility”—accepting the messiness and loss of control.

9. Parenting, Rigidity, and The Mystics’ ‘Okay’

[35:06 - 37:06]

• Val describes letting go of parenting ideals (somatic tapping, etc.), realizing her child (Leela) resists all attempts at control—which is “the lesson.”
  • Val: "It reminded me that... when Lee... I'm just teaching her... At this point, it's been seven years of this girl giving me the finger at every attempt to control something messy." [35:06]
• The key takeaway: the wisdom of the mystics is the “okay”—embracing life's flux and imperfection.

10. Emotional Honesty, Shame, and Recovery from Brokenness

[39:03 - 44:58]

• Pete opens up about recent professional rejection (Netflix passing on his special) and conflict with a close friend, leading to shame and soul-searching.
• Realization: True connection comes from humility, vulnerability, and the support of others. The “treasure is on the ground”—not in the winner’s circle.
  • Pete: “The treasure is on the ground. You think it's up in the winner's circle, but then you fall and you're bleeding and you're crying, to be honest... and then people like you, people like Richard go like, no, look, there's something that only the broken find.” [46:36]

11. The Power of Loving Community and Unconditional Support

[47:05 - 55:21]

• Val highlights the importance of “holding the light” for someone enduring shame and self-doubt—believing in their inherent goodness through their struggle.
  • Val: “If I remember who you are and I keep holding that view of you, you will eventually remember who you are too, which is not bad... you aren’t bad. You're good.” [49:15 - 50:56]
• Both remark on how loving witnesses (friends, therapists) quietly seeing through the drama help heal the spirit.

12. The Value (and Scarcity) of Brokenness in Modern Culture

[56:14 - 60:10]

• Pete contrasts media/podcast fixation on self-optimization (“Diary of a CEO,” health hacks, etc.) with the unseen value of brokenness:
  • Pete: “Nobody's buying brokenness, and therefore, nobody's selling brokenness... Sweetheart, let me tell you, this whole thing is the Odyssey. This whole thing is on your back. On a raft and your crew is dead…” [59:27]

13. Order, Disorder, Reorder — The Universal Cycle

[77:43 - 78:12]

• Referencing Richard Rohr’s concept and the Odyssey, the hosts emphasize the cycle of being broken/opened and then creating anew, with each loss enabling transformation.
  • Pete: “Order, Disorder, Reorder. ...That's what we're talking about.” [78:12]

14. Beauty, Belonging, and Mary Oliver

[64:02 - 66:15]

• Quoting Stephen Colbert on Mary Oliver, Val distills the message that our longing for beauty is proof we belong in the world—nature’s beauty mirrors our own if we’re brave enough to see it.
  • Val: “You belong to this world, and the proof of that is that you're compelled by its beauty... the beauty of the world is actually mirroring your own beauty, if you're brave enough to see it and be who you actually are instead of trying to be good.” [64:02]

15. The True Self: Remembrance and Compassion

[67:22 - 68:54]

• They discuss how true self—the “gold beneath the mud”—is revealed in moments of openness, generosity, and creativity, not defensiveness or shame.
• When we hurt someone, the process is to peel past our defenses, recall our wholeness, and act from there.

16. Transmuting Pain into Art and Connection

[73:01 - 76:19]

• Pete reflects that creative output (art, stories, “totem poles”) often emerges from pain, which is necessary for growth and community healing.
  • Pete: “The broken person comes back with the totem pole or the story or the poem or the song... and then everyone benefits.” [76:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Pete Holmes [04:00]: “It's funny to break one of your legs and just kind of walk around bleeding. And it makes us into, like, a frenzy.”
• Val [05:12]: “He is losing his mind over this tiny piece of turkey, and I don't give a shit about it. So here you go.”
• Val quoting Beyoncé [16:20]: “My persuasion can rule a nation. You'll do anything for me. That's why girls run the world.”
• Pete [25:50]: “Everything is an identity. And it all belongs.”
• Pete [32:06]: “The vegan moves to Italy... slowly starts eating cheese. You know what I mean? It's like, no fucking shit.”
• Pete [46:36]: “The treasure is on the ground. You think it's up in the winner's circle, but then you fall and you're bleeding and you're crying, to be honest... and then people like you, people like Richard go like, no, look, there's something that only the broken find.”
• Val [49:15]: “If I remember who you are and I keep holding that view of you, you will eventually remember who you are too, which is not bad. And you... aren’t bad. You're good.”
• Val quoting Stephen Colbert/Mary Oliver [64:02]: “You belong to this world, and the proof of that is that you're compelled by its beauty... the beauty of the world is actually mirroring your own beauty, if you're brave enough to see it and be who you actually are instead of trying to be good.”
• Pete [78:12]: “Order, Disorder, Reorder... That's what we're talking about.”

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Important Timestamps

• 01:12: Quiche and texting mishaps set the stage for family realness.
• 04:00: Pete’s “walking around bleeding” metaphor on sexual signaling and social cues.
• 13:58: Val links the witch trials to fear of female sexuality.
• 21:51: Val discusses the allure and trap of principled living.
• 25:50: Spiritual identity—a vegan’s judgment as “just another identity.”
• 32:06: Outgrowing veganism: “The vegan moves to Italy…”
• 46:36: The treasure is on the ground—redemption in shame and defeat.
• 49:15 - 50:56: Val’s perspective on supporting someone through shame and self-doubt.
• 59:27: Pete on the scarcity of “selling brokenness” in culture.
• 64:02: Mary Oliver & Colbert on beauty as proof of belonging.
• 76:10: Transformation of pain into creativity and communal benefit.
• 78:12: Richard Rohr’s Order, Disorder, Reorder model for life’s journey.

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Tone & Language

The episode is warm, honest, playful, and unflinchingly vulnerable, with Pete and Val displaying both their humor and willingness to look deeply at uncomfortable truths. Pop-culture references (Beyoncé, Good Will Hunting), spiritual and literary nods (Richard Rohr, Ram Dass, The Odyssey, Mary Oliver), and real-life struggles weave together fluidly. The conversation is candid, at times meandering, often philosophical but always accessible, with both hosts modeling relational generosity and humility.

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Conclusion

This episode is a heartfelt meditation on the wisdom born from brokenness, the real work of owning our shame without getting stuck, and the courageous act of holding each other (and ourselves) in compassionate light. Pete and Val remind listeners that wholeness isn't perfection, but the loving inclusion of all our messy, tender, and unfixable parts. It’s an empowering listen for anyone seeking relief from self-judgment—and maybe inspiration to alchemize their struggles into something beautiful.

Transcript

[Pete Holmes]

Lemonade. You made it with.

[Val]

Oh, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You made it with. Yes, you did. It made it weird. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[Val]

What's happening, weirdos? Our sweet, sweet baby weirdos.

[Pete Holmes]

Sweet baby weirds. I know I say this every time,

[Val]

but, you guys, this time.

[Pete Holmes]

I know I say this every time.

[Val]

This time.

[Pete Holmes]

This one was very special. This is one that we will definitely. You and I will listen to.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And if I'm ever in a. A tough spot or when I'm in a tough spot, I hope I remember to listen to this one, because it's very, very special. I don't want to even spoil it. I just want to say I'm so glad you're here. The tour dates are on Pete Holmes dot com. The book is spells to your parents. The Specials are on YouTube. That's it. I just want to get into this as quickly as possible.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Thank you for being here.

[Val]

Thank you for being here. And without further ado, get into it.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm rolling on this. This is funny. We are doing our podcast. Your quiche.

[Val]

No, it caught your. Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, sorry.

[Val]

Podcast, period.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Val]

Your quiche is in the brown box on the counter, period. We should be done in an hour or so.

[Pete Holmes]

Nice. So many things just on that. Here's your headphones 1. It's so funny to jump into other people's dictators.

[Val]

Oh, my gosh. We've talked about that, right?

[Pete Holmes]

Apparently, it would cause a fire.

[Val]

Apparently it causes a fire.

[Pete Holmes]

But if I auto text you or whatever that dictate text you from the car, Lela will always jump in. She usually just says, hi, mama, but that's the first step to being like, my butt's on fire. Like, whatever.

[Val]

She'll also say, apparently it causes a fire.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, it could cause a fire.

[Val]

It could cause a fire because that's what you jumped in on.

[Pete Holmes]

My voice, which was for those who don't remember, a classic. We made it weird bit was you were texting our house sitter, and we had just gotten e bikes, and I. This is so mean.

[Val]

I know.

[Pete Holmes]

This is so. I'm not. We were just talking about. And I don't want to make it. It's not about men. Certain types of minds will get hung up on certain things.

[Val]

What if you're, like, more rational?

[Pete Holmes]

More rational? Reasonable. Less emotional, Less crippled by bosoms. My mind is crippled by my bosom.

[Val]

Oh, I'm crippled by my bosom.

[Pete Holmes]

Would somebody help my bosom?

[Val]

It's like the beginning of there's too many blood. Too much blood rush into my tits.

[Pete Holmes]

Valerie. It's not funny.

[Val]

You like that?

[Pete Holmes]

Erotic.

[Val]

You liked that?

[Pete Holmes]

No, I just. I. You know, I'm trying to do that bit about girls are showing the bottom of their butts now. Did we talk about that on the pod?

[Val]

I think so.

[Pete Holmes]

I was like, the bottom's where all the stuff is. You can't. You can't tease us with the bottom.

[Val]

That's a butt crack is a different thing.

[Pete Holmes]

The top of the butt crack is what. That's what I'm saying.

[Val]

The top. Yes. We can very much tease you.

[Pete Holmes]

You sure can. My Jo don't think I'm going to do. Which means. I think it's safe and proper to do on this podcast. And it is a joke. Is. I'm like, when I see women showing the bottom third of their ass at the airport, which is their right. It's their right. I go, somehow men have just. It worked out in our favor like that. Let's unpack it.

[Val]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

That, yes, women, and it is, have ingested the idea. I hate who I am right now. Metabolize the idea that it's their liberty.

[Val]

Oh, my God.

[Pete Holmes]

And their self expression. And we're over here. What? Just. Just to finish, I'm speaking from a corner of my mind, not the fullness of myself from the corner. In the corner of my mind. I think it's funny to say it's like, we're lions and gazelles are like. It's funny to break one of your legs and just kind of walk around bleeding. And it makes us into, like, a frenzy. I'm not saying.

[Val]

This isn't like, here's my. Here's.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm not talking about danger. I'm talking about, like, hobo.

[Val]

Hobo.

[Pete Holmes]

That's all I'm saying.

[Val]

So to me, here's a. Here's a good example.

[Pete Holmes]

I love this.

[Val]

Here's a good example.

[Pete Holmes]

Learning moment. I know I'm wrong.

[Val]

I understand. I understand that you think that. So. Because there is sort of a. There is sort of a. It's not clear. I, like, I. It's not an obvious thing. And I'm formulating this as I am talking right now.

[Pete Holmes]

It's fun. We're skiing.

[Val]

So here's the thing. Bo's good.

[Pete Holmes]

Bo, our dog.

[Val]

Beau, our dog, I think is a good metaphor for men here.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Val]

And he, like, will come. He'll barge into the house, and in order to, like, get him to do anything, I control him with a treat. And he probably thinks, like, I got. I got her trained because she'll give me a treat if I. I see

[Pete Holmes]

you're making a like, think like a man, be a boss, like a lady kind of book. Like, well, he let us think that the bottom of our.

[Val]

This is. But really. No, no, don't do that. Don't do that. I'm just making one point. There's layers to this. One of the layers is BO is like. And some you. Some people are even like, he's got you trained. He knows if he barges in and you're trying to get him out, you'll give him a treat. But I'm like, it literally matters to me zero to give him a treat. I'm. I'm happy to give him a treat. I know that I'm the one in control. Like, he is losing his mind over this tiny piece of turkey, and I don't give a shit about it. So here you go. So that's one point. The other thing is that it's like. It's like, if you take. There is. It's. It is a reclaiming. It's like, yes, we've been objectified.

[Pete Holmes]

Can I inter. I'm gonna jump in. I've been restraining. I want you to know that if I was a sexy lady, I would love it. I've told you that. Like, the feeling I get from being a. No, no. A public figure. Yeah. I can hear Anthony Jessel, like, being, like, public fig. And then he roasts me. I'm just saying, like, yeah. A celebrity makes me feel like a beautiful woman. Obviously, women are so. You know what I'm saying?

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And I like it and I flaunt it and I enjoy it, and it's great.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I wonder if you could make the argument that it's like, I think I'm in control, but really I'm the idiot that's giving away my life to be

[Val]

desired, and we are making concessions.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm with that to do that.

[Val]

However, I. Yes. I think somebody who is, like, you know, whatever, showing the bottom of their ass and, like, doesn't feel good about doing it. Like, that's where it's like, this is an issue. But.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Val]

And here there is an argument under that. That's like, well, why do they feel good? They feel good because men have told them that this is their worth, and they have internalized that. And so then they feel worthy when they're doing it.

[Pete Holmes]

Interesting. Is like the classic 60s San Francisco feminist woman would be like, why are you showing your ass? That's because you've been told that's your worth.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Let me. And then you go into the woods and they teach you about fucking.

[Val]

But that's the thing is

[Pete Holmes]

you learn E. Cummings and BO Staff fighting, and then you're like, I don't need to show my ass.

[Val]

Yes. I think. And I had a.

[Pete Holmes]

Not to say that, but. But we're just going down one thread here.

[Val]

Yes, absolutely. And. And there's. I think that's the waves that it goes through. This is why, for me, personally, like, some days I'm. I'm, you know, dressing all cute and whatever, like, very patriarchy approved. And then some days I'm, like, wearing, like a gigantic sweat or, like, shirt and whatever, because it's like, the point is, is just do what makes you feel good. And, yeah, you can unpack it. That. That's one way people can choose to go. It's like, okay, if the. If I want this for the wrong reasons, then I should work on not wanting that and not giving into it. That's totally respectful. Way to go. And that's how I was more in my, like, college, early 20s year.

[Pete Holmes]

There's clearly a lens of our Christianity coming out here. Because I'm like that. I look at the ass showing people, first of all, I just go, oh, my God, thank you. What? You've just brightened up my day. I was walking to the gate. I'm walking to the gate. My backpack, you know, my backpack, it's so heavy. And you just see a butt. And I know I'm being kind of obtuse. I don't know what I'm doing. Obtuse, obtuse, obtuse. But you just go, oh, that was. That was beautiful. I loved seeing that.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You know?

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And I know that there are 1960s San Francisco feminists that would be like, fuck you. This is my body. This. I like being alive and sexy. Sexy and sensual and like a wizard, you know, like a magician. Like, I'm powerful. I'm with that. Yeah, I'm with that. I just think there's. What I'm trying to express because I really love. Obviously, we love knowing one another is. It goes back to that. Remember we were talking about sexual fantasy and I was like, if I found a portal to a world where it's only women and they're all just beautiful and horny and they love me and we just have sex, but I'm the only one. I have extreme act and I can leave. That's part of it. I'm like, okay, I'm done. And they're like, we love you. We love you. Thank you. And next time I come back, they've made macaroni art of my conquests. And then we have more sex.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

There's also something I'm reaching for, like a sci fi fantasy kind of analogy where it's like, if somebody from the puritan times came to these times, and that is the Christian ethos is kind of puritanical. So you take a guy with a belt buckle hat, I know that's a pilgrim, and you bring him to 2026 and you send them to the airport and you see braless women. We saw somebody had coffee today, was like, out,

[Val]

out.

[Pete Holmes]

And I. I see it and I just go, yeah, in a good way. I'm not shaming her. I'm not. I'm just having like a reaction. Same kind of reaction you do when you lick a lemon. It's completely just like, oh, yeah, lemon, you know?

[Val]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

If you took the puritan, brought him here, and then he goes back to the puritan times, he would find Nabos, his neighbor. Convenient. What do I mean? His name would be like Hazel. Hazel would be a girl. What are the names? Jebson. Jebson. Jebediah. He'd find Jebson and Jebediah. Back in those days, that was like Matt and Mark. Similar, but very different.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And he would say, I found a portal to heaven.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You can walk around and there's just boobs moving gently with no support. Just kind of. And I understand that we live in 2026. There are parts of the world where women are still shrouded and covered. And. And so I get that. I understand that. It's like that's still happening.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm acting like it's all lax.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Lax is a particular I. And you know, I travel around. You go to fucking. I'm trying to think of a place. But you go to St. Louis. It's not exactly as this forward as LA. LA is really like, welcome to LA. Everyone looks like roller girl and. And there's just a lot. But anyway, that guy would tell Jebediah, like, it's heaven. It's. It's. Everything that's been take, like hidden from us is just on full display. You can walk around and just kind of eat ice cream.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And look at asses. And he's like, what do you mean asses? And like a third of them. You mean donkeys? Speak plainly, man. And I go, no. One third of the ass is naked and out. And he goes the top. And he goes the bottom, Jeb, the bottom. And he goes. But the Bottom's where all the stuff is.

[Val]

Okay. Yes. Well, you know what's interesting?

[Pete Holmes]

There's a secret, like, it's like going to a planet where a sign of respect is flashing your boobs. And we go. And we're like, this is their culture. But we're also kind of like, blushing. Yeah. Biting. Like fucking Chandler. Biting the fist. And we'd go once we're back to our hotel room on the planet where women say hello by showing their boobs. We'd go back to our hotel room and high five. That's the. That's the stupid point I'm trying to communicate.

[Val]

I'm glad it's mutually beneficial because the truth is, is like, if you, if you went, you know, if a puritan. A puritan woman came to LA and women were roller skating in their bathing suits, they would be like, thank God. Like, if we did that here, they literally will burn us for being witches. A big reason why the whole, like, a huge connection, you know?

[Pete Holmes]

I know. This is great, right?

[Val]

Yeah. Ye.

[Pete Holmes]

I love this.

[Val]

The. A huge connection of, like, why the witch is a theory that, like, why the witch trials happen is because. And, And I think what's like, at a root of patriarchy is fear of female sexuality. Like this huge spells. Yes. Like, because there's so much power. Because if I'm working this out, you guys.

[Pete Holmes]

So this is like if you shame sexuality and then you make. Women are so beautiful and sensual and so many of the stories, you know, I'm a witch trial motherfucker.

[Val]

I know you are.

[Pete Holmes]

We're like, I woke up in the night and she was sitting on my chest.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And. And smothering me.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It was like, that sounds like a guy saying to his wife, it didn't mean anything. It's like I woke up and we were doing it. It's like that werewolf. We don't know how to cope with it when you're. So. I'm not saying we're animals. I'm just saying, like, you can be overtaken with desire.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

In this. And I mean all of us in the consensual way. We're not having a veiled conversation about violence. We're talking about eroticism. We're talking about attraction.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And all above. But I'm just like, that story sounds like a guy being like, I was at a conference for work and man, she was just. Something about her.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Put a spell on me. I'm in my hotel. I'm on four seven. She's on four three. I'm getting off on three. And like. And then they do go, let's get rid of these harlots. Right. Because there's no honesty.

[Val]

Yeah. If you go. If you. You know, if it's like a bee lands on a flower, if it looks like the bee is dominating that flower, but really the bee has devoted its entire life to that flower and would do anything for the flower.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. And brings it back to the queen and it's all about the hive.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I actually think that's a better thing for capitalism. The worker bees go out and the money. But really you're paying the taxes to the people that are like. And now we can eat goat head and have an orgy.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That's because we live in a shadow government for real.

[Val]

Well, I've lost my boner.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I'm rock soft. I'm like a talc. I'm like a soft.

[Val]

It's like soft rock. Let's listen to soft rock and I'll get rock soft.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, my God. You're the only friend I want.

[Val]

But this is also the theme of Beyonce's who Run the World? Girls. She says, my persuasion can rule a nation. You'll do anything for me. That's why girls run the world.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Val]

According to Yonsei. And, you know, let's just listen to the queen here on this one.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, it's funny having. I'm just going to be one of those guys that's mentioning the Odyssey a lot. And, you know, Helena Troy. Yeah, Helena. I use it because I'm just going to be one of those guys mentioning

[Val]

the Odyssey a lot. It's already going to happen.

[Pete Holmes]

You don't know what it's like. Talk about being.

[Val]

I do. I understand.

[Pete Holmes]

In 2026. Sees the Odyssey.

[Val]

I.

[Pete Holmes]

You're.

[Val]

You're. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You're gonna keep saying this is like the Odyssey. This is like the Odyssey. Of course this is the Odyssey when it's funny because Matt Damon is obviously the Odyssey.

[Val]

He's John the Odyssey.

[Pete Holmes]

He's John the Odyssey. Williams. He's Odysseus, and he is also Good Will Hunting. He's Will Hunting. Which is the stupidest part of that great movie is that his name is Will Hunting. Yeah, it was the.

[Val]

It was. We were making movies.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, it was mo.

[Val]

We were shamelessly making movies.

[Pete Holmes]

The guy's name is Jack Frost and he turns into a snowman like that. Of course it's Jack. Nobody would be like, his name shouldn't be Jack Frost.

[Val]

Yeah. Like what?

[Pete Holmes]

What?

[Val]

That's obviously the name of this.

[Pete Holmes]

We Loved a good simple cake. Yeah, Like a Carvel ice cream cake. That's what calling him Will Hunting is.

[Val]

Yeah, he's good.

[Pete Holmes]

And I don't. I love that movie. Are they looking for Goodwill in that movie? They're not good. They're looking for a way to apply mathematical genius.

[Val]

I mean, that's not good. Are they. Is that a. Was that a term?

[Pete Holmes]

What?

[Val]

Like, this is just Goodwill hunting, I think.

[Pete Holmes]

It's not. I don't think. But it. It was a. It was a play. It was a play on. I can feel AI, by the way, making us stupider. Because I'm like, let's just ask. It's like Google for everything. And it'll be like, well, sort of. And it'll be nice about it. I can see why you're wondering what was the. How are you, by the way? And you're like, now I'm dating you. Now I'm dating you. It's time for my weekly do not engage. Don't do it. I've been doing it too much. I've been asking it all sorts of. I'm writing something, so I've been asking it, using it instead of Google. And by the way, I can feel. I was just on Ilana Glaser's Instagram and she's so against AI and all these great reasons to be it. So I'm feeling that burn. But anyway, still doing it. I'm dumbass. Oh, no. I'm a dumbass.

[Val]

So hard to be.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm a dumbass. I know.

[Val]

I mean, if you're not one of those people.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm just kidding.

[Val]

No, no.

[Pete Holmes]

You guys know I love Magic Mind. There's one right here on my desk because I'm constantly drinking it. It is Matcha. It's nootropics, it's adaptogens. It helps you dial in and get in a flow state, basically on command. I drink it before shows. I drink it before this podcast. I'm always trying to get the guests to drink a Magic Mind because it just lights up your brain. It helps you think, it helps you make connections, it helps you with creativity and focus. It's amazing, especially if you're trying to drink less coffee. It's a wonderful life hack. I drink the original before the early show when I do stand up. And I drink Magic Mind free, which is the caffeine free version before the late show, because I don't want caffeine that late at night. Sometimes I drink the Magic Mind Max, which has more caffeine in the morning, instead of a cup of coffee. And I absolutely love it. And I drink Magic Mind Sleep at night, which now has a microdose of melatonin. I used to be so anti melatonin, but they did all of this research to figure out that a little boost, a little bit of melatonin helps your brain go, oh, we're making melatonin now. And. And I've been sleeping so much better. So my day is filled with Magic Mind, literally before I'm doing this podcast, before I'm sitting down to write, and even at night because of Magic Mind free and then Magic Mind Sleep. So you gotta try it. I absolutely love it. I'm always talking about it. And right now Magic Mind is hooking up weirdos with 20% off. 20 your first order, just go to MagicMind Co weird and use promo code weird at checkout for 20% off. That's MagicMind Co weird and use promo code weird at checkout. You've heard me talk about quints before because I genuinely love the clothes that they make. They made a Mongolian cashmere sweater that's become one of my daily essentials. I love it. Val loves it. It's so well made, so comfortable and really high quality. But now that it's summer, I've been checking out their linen collection as well. 100% European linen pants and shirts that are breathable, easy to throw on and start at just 34 bucks. Perfect for the hot weather. Their tees are soft enough to wear all day and their lightweight cotton sweaters are perfect for for once the sun goes down. What I love about quints is that everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories that cut out the middlemen you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. They become one of my favorite places for home travel and everyday essentials as well. So make your summer wardrobe easier and support the show. Go to quints.com weirdo for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com weirdo for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com weirdo

[Val]

I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. The balance of being principled and free. And it is tricky because also there are, there are personality types where they like love being principled. They get off on it. It feels good to them to have rules and principles. And this is what you should do. And this is right and this is wrong. And all like, all that black and white, it feels like correct for them. And I'm just saying they have an advantage. And they look at people like us and they're like, you fuck, you're fucking everything up. And it's like, all right, but it is a little easier, baby, shut up. It's just a little like you are getting more fulfill. I try to be as, as principled

[Pete Holmes]

as you, Dennis Haskins.

[Val]

It's not going to feel the same. At the very least, I. I was

[Pete Holmes]

going to say, look, this is. This is a sticky pickle. And it's. It's. It's hard. I love that there's yard work happening.

[Val]

Hi. Hi.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm easily distracted. And there's yard work. I love the song. Hey, hello, sharks. I've. I've designed a silent leaf blower. And they all go, this is a billion dollar idea. And I hold up a rake and I go, what the wrong with this? It's. I. I'm sure. What the wrong with this? I'm sure everybody that works in landscaping is like, you don't know what you're.

[Val]

I'm sure it's.

[Pete Holmes]

You're holding up a horse at a car convention. Okay, sweetheart, you can deal with a little room. Room. We'll be gone in 20 minutes. 20 minutes of room. Room. Or eight hours of.

[Val]

That's true. That's really true.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm sure everybody complained about everything. There's too many candles in this room. What am I, made of wax? Money? What am I made of wax? What were we saying? Oh, it's veganism.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I was listening to Rupert Spira as I'm want. Oh, I have a spiritual thing. I can't wait to share that. That people are gonna like. Oh, that you're gonna like. Oh, even. No, I will like even, because it's not a philosophy. It's something that I can't wait to share anyway. But I was. I was listening to Rupert and he was talking to. A lot of people talk about veganism. It comes up, probably once a retreat, somebody will ask something about, like, what should we be eating? And Rupert is real. I just love him. He's. He's like, I don't tell people what to eat. He's like, I'm not here to tell people what to eat. And he. If somebody talks about how they have compassion and love for animals and. And therefore they're vegan, he'll be like, you know, I. I share your conviction. I understand that. But he. I Got. It's the first time I've listened to hundreds of hours of. Of Rupert doing Q and A's and all that. And I. It was the first time I had heard him say, like, to a vegan. He was like, look, because somebody was talking about dating a non vegan. He's a vegan, and he dates a non vegan. And he catches himself judging them.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

He's like, what I would do is go out and get fish, go eat a fish dinner with them. He's like, you might not even like it, but the act. He even. It was kind of. I didn't know if I agreed with him on this point, but he was like, the fish will gladly give its life for that. For that understanding.

[Val]

Oh, wow.

[Pete Holmes]

And I was like, that might be too far.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't know.

[Val]

But that's.

[Pete Holmes]

But he was saying, there's such a beautiful thing in coming together. And as. As a former vegan, I still eat a lot of vegan food. That's over. I'm not talking about what I'm eating. I'm just saying I eat a lot of vegan food, but I'm not a vegan. I can't call myself a vegan. There's only so many slices of your daughter's pizza that you can eat. Or chicken. Fucking chicken. Or steaks. It happens.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, I can't say I'm a vegan, but I love that he was. He said, it's just another identity. And this is Rupert, not us. He goes, so is being a Do Gooder being like a do like it. Everything is an identity.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And it all belongs.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I want the Do Gooders, I want the vegans. But, like, it's what Ram Dass used to say. Do what you do with another person, but never put them out of your heart.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

So it's like, okay, would Alana Glazer. I love Alana.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm really kind of taken with her. I think she's incredible.

[Val]

So smart.

[Pete Holmes]

She's one of those people that I'm like, I just couldn't imagine her doing this podcast. Like, she's in that. When Abby did it, I couldn't believe Abby did it.

[Val]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But anyway, so I love her. I went on her page and I understood everything she was saying. I thought it was great. Would she be mad that I'm, like, in the same sentence talking about how I asked Chatgpt what pirates call swords?

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, probably. And rightfully so. And then could she do it without kicking me out of her Heart, I'm going to say probably too. I don't know. But that's sort of the next level of three dimensional chess, right?

[Val]

It is, yeah. It's just so.

[Pete Holmes]

I hate that I said three dimensional chess.

[Val]

It's okay. I didn't kick you out of my heart for it.

[Pete Holmes]

Thank you for not. I briefly kicked myself out of my own heart for saying three dimensional. That's the new. On a long enough timeline, which I used to over say too much.

[Val]

On a long enough timeline. I don't remember that one.

[Pete Holmes]

Somebody really teased me in the comments once on an episode of this podcast where I was like, on a long enough timeline. And it's from Fight Club.

[Val]

Oh, is it?

[Pete Holmes]

There's. On a long enough time. On a long enough timeline, the life expectancy reaches zero or something. It's just a way of saying we all die. Everything ends.

[Val]

Yes. Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I started saying on a long enough timeline. Too much.

[Val]

Yeah, it's. I don't know. I.

[Pete Holmes]

Can I tell you the thing I was gonna say and we'll move away from this tricky pickle.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Or do you want to.

[Val]

The one point I was just gonna make is what you and I specifically have to be careful that we have the religious upbringing that makes us want to be like, truly, there still is the belief in there that there is a right way and you have to do it to be good.

[Pete Holmes]

Yep. Val, I'm dying. I love this.

[Val]

And so that can just be constantly applied to every little thing in life, like activism, veganism, you know, any of these things that you're like, this is. Right. Like, I understand. Yeah. This is true. And I have to just hold everything loosely.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, that's what I was getting excited about.

[Val]

Because I will go too far and I will. It will start to.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what people do.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay. So this segues beautifully into what happened. And probably this has happened seven, eight times on this podcast and I just don't remember. But I do tend to get a little bit dry in my Non duality. Non duality and then non duality.

[Val]

Sorry. Just really wanted to say it that way.

[Pete Holmes]

And then like a. Like a lighthouse. I'll remember. Oh, I. At my best. And I really mean this. It's the right formula for me. I'm reading Rupert, I'm reading John Wheeler, and I'm balancing it with. With Richard Rohr, who I absolutely love. But it had been. It's been like a year.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Since I've read Richard and I found out Netflix and HBO and everybody just passed on my new special which makes the second special in a row that everybody passed. And there's a certain sandwich to that. You just have to go, like, well. And look, I want to be very clear. I love my life. I'm in a better place. The day I found out.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Was, like, rough. You know, I just noticed that I had a crimp in my craw. I'm feeling a lot better about it, but it was hard. It was that rejection is hard. And then I was like. I did this podcast with Angela Johnson, which was awesome. And we basically just talked about doubt and wondering if we're done, because I just found out, like, two hours before we recorded, I had found out that Netflix passed. And then we had this podcast, and we're basically just going, like, what. What's going on? Are we. Are we dead? Are we, like, finished? And also balancing it with, like, what are we talking about? We have these dream jobs. It's such a gift. But there was a lot of, like, meh. So that was what was happening. Anyway, after that podcast, I was like, I remember Falling Upward, in which Richard Rohr references the Odyssey a lot. The Odyssey is sort of like the backdrop metaphor of that book, but it's about the second half of life. And I start listening to it. And the first thing. So talking about veganism and activism, all these things. The first quote is from Carl Jung, and it says, like, I'm gonna get it a little bit wrong, but basically right. He goes, like, there's some problems. Like, wisdom is realizing that there are some problems that can't be solved by the mind. They can only be outgrown. And you go, like, right. You just drop them. Like, you move past them in brokenness.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And that's kind of how I feel about what to eat is I go, I had my nine years of veganism, and I think it's beautiful to be vegan. I'm just saying where I was really righteous and right and felt good. And I told you I used to be at meals with other people, and I would be fully going, like, I can't believe how unconscious and cruel you are. And now there is a outgrowing ness. And it's not out of, like, I have outgrown that. It's actually out of not being ashamed, but being, like, humiliated, being broken and realizing how gentle and vulnerable and wrong and at the whims of my own mind. Like, you start kind of laughing at this idea that you were steering the ship.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what I'm saying? Like, Pete does these Pete things. And then later Goes back and goes, pete did those things. Things. And wisdom goes, no, those things were happening, and Pete was just getting dragged along for the ride. Or I was just getting dragged. You know what I'm saying?

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Trying to articulate. There's. You realize it's less personal. You go, like, the vegan moves to Italy, and he's in Italy and there's no other vegans, and he slowly starts eating cheese. You know what I mean? It's like, no fucking shit.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You're there for 10, maybe you hold out for 10 years, and then you fall in love with a cheesemaker woman, and now you're eating cheese even though you know better. It's like, yeah. I'm not trying to say there's no accountability. I'm trying to say that what I interpret that outgrowingness is broken humility, where you go, like, I'm in this thing. I'm not a separate piece. The whole thing is just kind of swaying and flowing, moving in, moving out. I have it. I lost it. I'm vegan. I'm not. I'm activist. I'm not. I'm. I'm confused. I'm broken. I'm proud, I'm ashamed. And you just go, okay. Like, that's the mystics. Okay.

[Val]

Yes. Okay. This.

[Pete Holmes]

No, Val, we're out of time.

[Val]

That was so beautiful. That's right. It's the mystics. Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Is the mystics. Okay?

[Val]

Okay. Okay. I think that's it. It's like, this is. So far what I've Learned in my 37 years here is there is this undulating of, like, my word. I have over a long enough timeline. There's this of the only queen, like, rigidity. This is like a Buddhist concept. It's. Which we've talked about. It's like, not too tight, not too loose. And there's just always sort of the balance of that. But another way of saying it is like, there's this rigidity of, like. And especially in your early years, but it's also your early years of doing anything. So it's like, you know, call. You're like. It's. We're so known for, like, you know, teenagers and especially, like, college age people being so rigid. And they're like, this is not right. This is like, we need to fix this. We can change this. They're super activist, super political. Like, this is not okay, and we have to change it. And that's, like, beautiful, right?

[Pete Holmes]

It belongs.

[Val]

It belongs. And then you grow a little more, have more humbling experiences and realize, oh, It's a big old mess, and I have actually very little control. Then you become a parent. Let's say this is not, obviously, everybody's trajectory, but this is another example. You become a parent and you go, oh, my God, I'm gonna do it. All right. Like, this was not correct in my upbringing. I'm gonna do it differently. I'm gonna be better. My sweet, very sweet cousin sent me a. And she's so good with kids. She's like, she's wonderful. This is nothing on her. She sent me a. Like, a video of, like, three somatic moves for a child to do when they're having big feelings.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm already smiling, and it's like a

[Val]

sleep song, and it's tapping and it's rubbing. It's like, all the somatic moves that I do for myself. And she's so right to see that and be like, val has a big, you know, like, a deeply feeling kid, and she's into somatics. She'll love this. So there's nothing on that. It's just. It reminded me that I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. When I. When Lee. I mean, you can go back on the podcast episodes where I would have been a hundred percent in on that, where I'm like, I'm just teaching her to squeeze her body, to tap her, you know? And at this point, it's been seven years of this girl giving me the finger at every attempt to try and control something messy.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Val]

Where the lesson is like, oh, oh, no. Like, not that we don't try.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. But it's more about outgrowing, like, outgrowing your fantasy of, like, I'm gonna tap you out of this.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And going, okay, Leela's having a fit. I'm just gonna try. My goal is now to make sure she doesn't hurt herself.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And to make sure nobody gets hurt and that she feels safe. But we're not gonna, like, extinguish it. I hear you exactly.

[Val]

Right. Exactly. And just that life is messier than that. And I'm not saying. And neither is Richard Rohr saying, like, so we don't try. We don't try to fix the environment. We don't try to, you know, like, stop ice. Like, we don't. Like. I'm not saying that we don't try. I'm just saying we try knowing, like, what we can control and what we can't. And also that it's a big old mess and we're constantly being humbled.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. What I'm hearing there And Leela was a great example is the humility. And I've said this a million times, but human humility, humiliation, all Hume hum is like soil. It's like low to the ground. Like, get low.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I'm not gonna go into the details, but I had an altercation with a friend that. Where I was in the wrong. And it really humbled me. It really, like, broke me.

[Val]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I've been sad for a couple weeks. And. And then. And then the Netflix thing, which is really. Not even the. The friend thing was worse.

[Val]

Yeah, yeah. But it's a one, two punch.

[Pete Holmes]

But I was going around, and then I talked with Angela, and it was a fun podcast. But then afterwards, I was like, wait, Richard talks about this? And I realized I had gotten. And I love everything. Everything's fine. I'm just saying I gotten a little into outer space. Just a little. Like, it's all emptiness. I spent, like. This is a funny thing to say. I spent a lot of my time contemplating how I don't exist.

[Val]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know that.

[Pete Holmes]

And it gives me great peace, of course. And what I mean, not exist. Not exist as a separate fragment.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

We talked about, if you look at a mirror, you can't peel yourself off the mirror. The mirror is one thing. Reality is one thing. I have the appearance of being separate, but really it's all just one mirror. And there's. And what the mirror is, is peace and happiness. Right. That's like my basic philosophy. And I love it. And then I can do it so hard that I start going, like, why is everyone so fucking into this? Like, into this world? And then I have a conflict. A friend, I hurt a friend. And then I get rejected. And then I. And this is exactly like when I was depressed doing the second season of Crashing, and I realized, don't you like listening to Ram Dass? It was the same exact thing. I went, don't you like listening to Richard? And I. I've read Falling Upward countless times, the book. And I, I, that is a full recommendation. I absolutely love it. Especially with the Odyssey out right now. It's a fucking.

[Val]

I love it.

[Pete Holmes]

Masterpiece of a book. Covers everything.

[Val]

Yeah, it really does.

[Pete Holmes]

And then I was like, okay, I. I'm not gonna read it. I'm just gonna. Because I was driving. I was like, I'm just gonna go on YouTube. And there's an hour talk he gives on Falling Upward, like, at the release of the book. And within five minutes, it was like hearing not just a melody you like, but it was like, hearing your melody.

[Val]

He was like, wait, that's resonating.

[Pete Holmes]

That's my song Heart. That's. It's something that would happen in psychedelics. Like, you're in a weird hallway of clown hands, and then you hear a melody and you go, what am I doing in this hallway? And you start swim. Flying towards it. And it's home.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And so he's literally calling me home, like Odysseus.

[Val]

And, like, under.

[Pete Holmes]

He's talking about the first life and the second half of life. And he's like, the first half of life is establishing yourself.

[Val]

It's.

[Pete Holmes]

It's about status. It's about building up your name. It's about associating yourself with important people. It's about conquest. And he goes, most people never move past that. They want to be safe. And he goes, this is why we spend, like, I don't know the statistic, but it's like 10 times as much on the military than we do on the whatever. Because everyone has, am I safe? Yeah, can I. No one needs to be sold on am I safe? Because the second half of life is. You stop doing the survival dance and you start. I'm not. I'm not going to get the quote right, but you start looking for your place in the collective, in the big picture, in the together, in the. In that broken place. And he's like, it's only in being broken. And I'm sorry, I'm not being entirely clear. Just listen to the talk. But he talks about, like, oh, no. I started wondering, worrying that I was gonna go blank. And then I did go a little bit blank. He's like, I don't. He goes, as a counselor, people would come to me. I imagine people like me, people that have had the success of their first half of life, and they start getting broken, they start getting chopped down. And I loved that he said this. He was like, as a spiritual director, there's always a part. And he's like, I don't like admitting this, but there's always a part that's ecstatic, that's so happy. And he's like, and I do pray for you to be broken. I pray for you to be humiliated. And I was like, this is the song. I'm coming out of the clown Tunnel.

[Val]

It's coming from inside you.

[Pete Holmes]

I knew that there are treasures. And, you know, it's Julian of Norwich. First comes the fall, then comes the recovery from the fall. Both are the mercy of God, I think is what she said.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And I was like, I know all Those quotes, I just sort of stopped contemplating them. And I was like, so I've had a couple trips, and I've been kind of on my hands and knees a little bit. If I'm being honest, I was approaching it in a very first half of life way where I was like, I'm a fucking famous comedian. I'm not supposed to feel this way.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

That's. That I'm not proud to admit that I was like, I don't deal with this.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't feel this way.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I fucking rock. Like, I wear rollerblades and a cape. I'm fucking good.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And then, like, life. And now I really am. I'm not just saying this. I'm seeing it as a snake bite that I'm like. But I was on my walk that I do every day to the Goblet of Ambrosia, where I just get my dick. Not to be crass, but, like, I have sex and I have whatever. We talk about these things all the time. Like, someone comes up and says, oh, you've changed my life. I love you. Your comedy. What, this? That's first half of life stuff. And then I get bit by a snake. And I. I say this with pride. Just failed. Got like an F minus. I was like, I don't like this. This needs to end. And how do I end it? And I felt like I was in the Situation Room or maybe the press secretary office of the White House, trying to frame what had happened to me in my favor that I could still be a winner. Netflix. That one's easy. You go, well, look at what they're buying. Yeah, I. Oh, sorry. I'm not. Blah, blah, blah, or what? I'm sorry.

[Val]

Just always spin it into your.

[Pete Holmes]

And then with the friend, you go like, well. And you want to say how you were right.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, they need to. I told my therapist. I was like. I felt like I had all these bullying feelings.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It was like I was siding with Biff from Back to the Future. I was like, he's making a good point. Hello, McFly. Someone needs to wake up. McFly. Like, I was, like, siding with a bully.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Because it was so humiliating to admit that I was wrong.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And it was like my team just

[Val]

didn't know what to do.

[Pete Holmes]

Because if we look at that. And unfortunately, when I'm wrong, that spirals out into a very, very close feeling, which is. I knew it. I knew I'm not a good person.

[Val]

I'm bad.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm fundamentally bad.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And not only am I fundamentally Bad. And I knew that. I knew, I'm the devil. I'm a wicked little boy. But now someone caught me and now I'm embarrassed. And I'm the devil.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And. And then I like listening to. And now I'm rereading Falling Upward. But I was like, I need to balance my non. Duality with earthly wisdom, with relational wisdom, with communal. And it's just like.

[Val]

And heart space.

[Pete Holmes]

Heart space stuff. And you're always telling me that. But, like, since these things have happened that have been breaking experiences for me, and I know I've had this revelation on this podcast before. I've just noticed. I haven't been trying to be kind. I've just been kind.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I've just been kind because I felt how scared and alone and how I said to you. I was like, human beings are walking around. We're all neck. We're all neck. The whole thing is neck.

[Val]

It's so. We're so. It's our. That's what's so beautiful about us. We're so vulnerable.

[Pete Holmes]

We're so vulnerable.

[Val]

And we're bumping into each other and bruising each other constantly.

[Pete Holmes]

So easily.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And we give each other the finger on the highway. It's a miracle that we got it together to get out of bed and try. It's a fucking Mary Oliver poem of a miracle.

[Val]

Oh, my gosh.

[Pete Holmes]

That you woke and greeted another day and actually favored light and generosity over scarcity and fear. All these cliches. But it's true. And for. I'm just thrilled to share. I forgot again.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That being broken, being ashamed. Because really what I've been dealing with is shame.

[Val]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

And nobody. I don't want to be. I've been working on that. It's like you can feel guilty, you can feel remorseful, but you don't want to feel shame. You don't want to feel inherently bad. But like, that being that sort of taken out at the knees thing that I resisted so much. The treasure is on the ground. You think it's up in the winner's circle, but then you fall and you're bleeding and you're crying, to be honest. You're, like, embarrassed and scared. And then people like you, people like Richard go like, no, look, there's something that only the broken find.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Look to the Sermon on the Mount for other examples of this. But I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled to tell you I came back. I know unders. And I'll lose it again, and I'll find it again. And that's that's how it goes.

[Val]

But I. I am so proud of you.

[Pete Holmes]

Not been recording. I'm just kidding.

[Val]

That was really realistic.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm sorry. I'm such a good actor.

[Val]

You're such a good. You are.

[Pete Holmes]

We didn't even talk about your short.

[Val]

Wait, Finish your.

[Pete Holmes]

Finish your thought.

[Val]

I just. I just. You know, I've watched you go through all of this, and I've just been really. I never doubted for a second that you would find your way here. Like, I could see it because I wasn't the one going through it. I could see the path forward and all the stops you hit along the way that are just unavoidable. You have to hit the stop of, like, this isn't fair. Everyone else is wrong except for me. I'm not gonna put up with this. I don't want to do this. I'm gonna, like, resisting the call. Yeah. A lot of protecting.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Val]

It's like, I don't do this.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't have to change at all, actually.

[Val]

I'm not in trouble.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm not in trouble at all.

[Val]

Or, like, we don't do this. We're not people who do this. Like, it's all of the things. And I knew you would find your way. And this. The thing that you. Well, it's very true. Because I didn't think I would. I know.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, this is the turning point when I realize I'm Ebenezer Scrooge. I hate Christmas.

[Val]

This is just what you do. What it's. You know, it's like. It's the best thing for, like, a partnership. To hold the light for each other.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Val]

To. And it was a good practice for

[Pete Holmes]

me to be like, I thought you were faking it.

[Val]

I was not faking it.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't think you were now. But I was like. I felt like a ghoul. And I was like. Because you were like, this isn't you. Whatever you said. And I was like, yeah, great.

[Val]

I know.

[Pete Holmes]

Covered in chicken blood. I was like, I'll go chain myself in the garage. Like, I felt like such a.

[Val]

No, I was doing what I. You know, it's easier to do for somebody that you're in love with than it is for yourself sometimes. But I was doing what I wanted you to do and what you eventually did. Which is it. It felt like a practice at some points, at, you know, in the beginning a little. But it wasn't faking it. It was just like, remember who it's Taka. It was like. It was moana that's from Moana.

[Pete Holmes]

We only watch the live action remake.

[Val]

But yes, like, if I remember. If I remember who you are and I keep holding that view of you, you will eventually remember who you are too, which is not bad. And you. The thing that so many people do, especially men. Sorry. In my experience is go to the protector, the. Like, I'm not wrong. Everyone else is wrong.

[Pete Holmes]

Val. That's what I was saying for weeks.

[Val]

And then if you break. And I remember saying to you, because you had. You know, this is important. This is an important step. We love the friends who blindly are loyal and just go like, oh, it's beautiful. Like, get angry on our behalf. We need those people.

[Pete Holmes]

I had people that I didn't agree with, how hard they were agreeing with me.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I was like, but it was beautiful.

[Val]

It's so beautiful.

[Pete Holmes]

And when I was on my hands and knees, I was like, so many people were like, yes.

[Val]

You're like, you're not wrong.

[Pete Holmes]

Let's say I blew up a zeppelin. They would have just been like, fucking Zeppelins. They shouldn't be up there. Like, it was that. And I was so touched.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

That they were so.

[Val]

It's loving in those moments. It's loving.

[Pete Holmes]

When you went next level, you were like, pete, you blew up a Zeppelin. I'm just gonna stand here knowing that you're not. That's not who.

[Val]

Yeah. And that you know how to fix this. You can clean this up. And.

[Pete Holmes]

And you gave me. You never. You. You've been a miracle The. The whole time. I just. That was always a part of the story. It was. I was like, val really loves me. She even loves when I make mistakes. I could. I couldn't believe it, of course.

[Val]

And I can't bear. I really can't bear for you to think that you are bad. Like, I re. That was the. The main feeling I had was like, this is a hard lesson. And you. You did make a mistake. Like, I'm not denying that, but so does everyone. And you aren't bad. You're good. Like, that was the main thing I kept feeling and wanting you to.

[Pete Holmes]

I do a bad thing. I go, I'm bad.

[Val]

But then also, there's like this practical thing where it's like, again, so. So many people go to. Like, I'm not wrong. Everyone else is wrong. And then if they can break through that, the next phase is, I am wrong, and I'm bad, and I'm so bad. Like, everybody, just leave me alone. I'm bad. I don't deserve to. And Then it becomes all about that, and there still isn't any accountability or responsibility happening.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Val]

So you could have gotten stuck in both of those traps.

[Pete Holmes]

Now, I'm telling you, as someone who just did this, even knowing all we know and having the types of teachers and conversations that we've had, I was in that situation room, and my advisors were making a really good case to just burn it all. Snow job. Burn it down. Deny it, change the story, make it about this. Literally presenting me with options.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

You did this. I do want to say. My pride wants to say what? There's no, like, big secret, awful thing. It was just a social interaction.

[Val]

Yeah. It's just a little. It's a friend conflict.

[Pete Holmes]

A friend conflict.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. I just don't want anyone to be like, did Pete kill a guy? So. But it felt. It might as well. It felt like that. It felt like life, death stuff. And when it feels like life or death, meaning who we are, who we thought we were, is dying, the image. Image that we have of ourselves, the team, and I'm grateful to every single one of them, comes to me with these options of being like. It's just like. Not necessarily the conspiracy theory, but it's like a revisionist history, I guess. Being like, it. The Boston Tea Party wasn't actually about the tea. It was the boats.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

The boats were the water into the tea. Because they used to coat the boats with, what, Andromeda. What's Andromeda? A type of tea. And you're just like. And you're kind of thrilled. That wasn't quite right, but you know what I'm saying.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm just. I'm blown away with the. You've. You've really shown the level one is solidarity. And you gave me understanding, solidarity and the delight that I had when a friend would just completely be on your side. And how. I really. I received that as love. Friends texting me and just checking in. I could cry. It was just like. I would tell myself that I was like, look at the resources. Look at the love. Look at the support. This is unbelievable. And then the next step is. And it's almost impossible. You really are like a. There's like a mythic quality to you where you have a lantern, a protected, encased lantern. It's a storm, and there's a light in it. You're like, I'm just gonna hold on to this. And I'm like, you won't need it. And you're like, that's fine. And then when I start to smell mixing Metaphors. Because it used to be a song, but now I'm like, I smell the oil, that the fire is heating up and I Starting to come out in my own time.

[Val]

Yeah, you never. But the reason I'm able to do that is because I know you, like better than I.

[Pete Holmes]

When people like better than I know myself. Because in that moment I go, it's a wash. I'm. I'm a goblin.

[Val]

Yeah, exactly. But I'm saying I couldn't. What I'm saying is that it all does point back to your goodness. Like over the last 12 years, I've seen your goodness so steadily that I am.

[Pete Holmes]

This is why we need that.

[Val]

That I am able to. That lantern is. Is not running out of oil. Like that is burning bright. So all I have to do is. Is just keep holding on to it.

[Pete Holmes]

I love that and I love you so much. You know, just. It brought to mind that in my therapy I would have these like, venting sessions letting out a lot of ugliness, a lot of these strategies. I could look at it like this. I could look at it like this. And what my therapist did, which was such a gift was I really saw her seeing through it.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And watching someone. This is self serving. But like trying to be good.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Trying to do a better thing than the easy. Well, fuck everybody. Well, fuck everybody.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And like I don't. I know. I knew everybody was. And just kind of go around and take care of yourself and. And just like the cliche, get a leather jacket. I knew you were just be alone. Like a motorcycle alone.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

But tough. Protect yourself. Can't trust anybody. And I was. Anyway, the other thing I want to say that was beautiful. Thank you. About the being a do gooder. And. And you don't solve problems. You outgrow them. And the mystic. Okay. What I find we've talked about. I like the podcast Diary of a CEO. And I've noticed it can be problematic to me because the joke in our house is I stop eating lemons. And you're like, did you listen to a podcast?

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And you mean Diary of a CEO. There's such a. There is no outgrowing of problems. There's no transcendent include. There's no brokenness. There's no celebration of humility. That's not what it's trying to be. I'm just saying what it's not doing right. It's not trying to. That's not. That's not what I. Stephen, I think your show is doing a great job at what it Is. It's not. And most things aren't selling what Richard is selling because it's really hard to sell brokenness. It's hard to sell pain.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I don't mean pain in the gym or the pain of intermittent fasting, but there is a real. I can solve it. I can do it. It's lemons. I need to. I know I. I do this, but, like, I need to see sunlight in the morning. I need to do cold exposure. I need to read this. I need to eat in this window. I need to lift alternate days. And then I need to cardio. Like a bear is chasing me for three minutes every morning. It's like. It's reeking of. I can stay in. To use Richard's language the first half of life.

[Val]

Yeah. I can continue to control and succeed at reality.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't need it. Because what Richard and what the Jesus story and what so many at Odysseus is telling us is it's all brokenness. That. No spoiler here in the Odyssey, it's just one loss after another. The whole movie, people are crying. I was like, this is why crucified Jesus is a resonant image. Why it's been a hit is because human beings deep down know that it's just you. You just fled a Cyclops. And the movie does this brilliantly. And then the next thing you know, you're fighting these giants. Just giant knights that are unkillable. What?

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

The story is, we triumphed over the Cyclops. Now we're stronger because we don't eat lemons anymore, and we got daylight exposure. And now I can outrun the inevitability of humiliation and of brokenness. It's Jesus in the garden. But I'm gonna run. I'm not gonna be crucified. I'm not gonna. No. I don't sign for the delivery of this. Yeah, but he doesn't do that, and he doesn't tell the. I know I'm being very Christian, but he doesn't tell the disciples, avenge me. That would be the Western story. It would be John Wick.

[Val]

Yeah, totally.

[Pete Holmes]

The inciting incident would be Jesus dies. The rest of the movie is the apostles kicking ass. Ripping Roman ass. Like, that's ripping Roman.

[Val]

Ripping Roman ass.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm just saying, nobody's buying brokenness, and therefore, nobody's selling brokenness. And the fact that everyone listening and you and I have found teachers like Richard that are going like, sweetheart, let me tell you, this whole thing is the Odyssey. This whole thing is on your back. On a raft and your crew is dead. That whole movie is just watching his men die. And. And the men are him. It's him. It's his life. And what versions of him you're outgrowing? So I had a vegan soldier that was, like, really right and proud, and it's unfair, but I watched a cyclops bite his head off.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And it doesn't mean he was wrong. It's just like, oh, fuck. This whole thing is f. What do we do in the face of that? And what are the gifts on the bottom of that?

[Val]

I know. This is also why America is falling apart, because America's in the first half of life.

[Pete Holmes]

Absolutely.

[Val]

And we think that it's all about achieving and winning the battles. And we're just, like, taking these hits, one hit after another after another after another, and it. And it. It's all falling apart at the seams because it's unsustainable. And it's not the nature of reality.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. That's right.

[Val]

But it is a necessary part. Like, I think he argues for that in falling upward. Like, you have to have the first part because it's like building the containers, and then you. Then everything gets dumped out of the containers.

[Pete Holmes]

Jumping to the second half of life would be another way of, like, avoiding. You have to.

[Val]

You have to.

[Pete Holmes]

You have to put on the costume.

[Val]

Well. And it wouldn't mean anything because there wouldn't be any loss. Like, you have to have loss and brokenness. There's nothing to break if you just skip to it.

[Pete Holmes]

I think we've done a good job explaining something that's really hard even for me to explain to myself.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

When I'm eating chicken and like, what. What am I. I know this is fucking awful or whatever you want to say. And I'm like, I just. Here, here, here I am. I'm just this fuck. I don't.

[Val]

I don't.

[Pete Holmes]

It's hard to. You can't really put it in a bite size. It has to be in a conversation like this.

[Val]

Yeah. It's so interesting because you. You. I didn't see the Odyssey yet. You went and saw that. And then the next night, I went and saw the Mary Oliver documentary and we sort of gleaned the same lessons.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's right.

[Val]

And my favorite part of that. First of all, it was like, Mary Oliver fucking chain smoked her entire life.

[Pete Holmes]

She did.

[Val]

Yes. And somebody. One of her good friends, was like, nobody would guess that she, you know, like, she's sitting in. He said you would think she would only be breathing fresh mountain air, but she was breathing in smoke and nicotine more often than not. And, and you know, and she also, like, she was with the same partner for so long. And then as soon as that woman died, she like very. She started like fucking cruising. Like somebody goes, it's. It's really great. These aren't spoilers. There's like, you know, because there's different people in her life giving different accounts. And somebody was like, she turned to the church and then her friend who's John Waters, the filmmaker, goes, she was only going to church because she was after the female preacher.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh my God.

[Val]

She was like, she was trying to get her.

[Pete Holmes]

But this. When you. So. Not to go back too far, but when I was feeling like I'm a bad person. And you went and saw that movie. I went and saw that movie, my movie. And I was like the image of Odysseus with arrows in his back and like standing up and just kind of fucking being middle aged and tired and being like, I just gotta fuck it. And he goes, I don't even know if I want to go home. If you're just like, oh, that's it, that's it. If he was like, just clear and driven.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

That's not middle age. Middle age is like, I'm going home. I don't even know what is this?

[Val]

What is this?

[Pete Holmes]

What is this? Yeah, I'm like, fucking masterpiece. And then you reminded me of wild geese. And the first line is, you do not have to be good.

[Val]

Yeah. And.

[Pete Holmes]

And I was like, I know all this shit.

[Val]

I know, but we forget.

[Pete Holmes]

It's just so funny. It's what, it's like my favorite poem.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Opens with, you do not have to be good.

[Val]

Yes. Which you've said to me in really key moments. And it's, it's like an important thing.

[Pete Holmes]

Tell the Stephen Colbert thing.

[Val]

Yeah, that's what I wanted to say.

[Pete Holmes]

And then next thing, we'll talk all about you. Your short.

[Val]

Oh, it's fine.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm so sorry.

[Val]

No, no, no, we don't have to do that. But yes, I think Stephen Colbert really shined in the Mary Oliver documentary and he had such a beautiful analysis of wild geese and basically all of Mary Oliver's work, which was. And I like remembered it. I'm going to get it slightly wrong, but I really committed it to memory because I couldn't wait to come home and tell you. So he says that the message is basically of all of Mary Oliver is you belong to this world and the Proof of that is that you're compelled by its beauty. And the beauty of the world is actually mirroring your own beauty, if you're brave enough to see it and be who you actually are instead of trying to be good.

[Pete Holmes]

Jeez, I'm crying. Can you say it again?

[Val]

Yes. It's so many layers. It's just too good.

[Pete Holmes]

I heard you, but it's like.

[Val]

It's like one thing after another because just this part is so beautiful. You belong to this world, and the proof of that is that you're compelled by its beauty. Done. Great.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Why do I love beautiful things?

[Val]

Why am I moved by a sunset? Why am I moved? Why do I want to be amongst the trees? Why do animals mean so much to me? Why do we go to the beach? There's no. There's no commerce there. Why do we go there? It's like. Because we belong here.

[Pete Holmes]

You don't just like beauty, you're compelled by it.

[Val]

You're compelled by it. And you don't just like beauty. You are the same natural beauty. You are the ocean mirror.

[Pete Holmes]

You can't peel yourself off the mirror. You can't separate yourself.

[Val]

That's right. Which is the next.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm visiting the beach. Yes, you are the beach. Right now.

[Val]

Which is the next layer of this? Which is that the beauty of the world is mirroring your own beauty. There's no separation. You look at the ocean, you look at a tree. You feel that beauty. That's you, brother. That is your. You are as natural and beauty beautiful as that.

[Pete Holmes]

You're drawn like. That's why we say things like coming home.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, you're coming. What is home? It's where you belong. And when you see a sunset, you feel this, like, homecoming. You feel this connection. And the beach or the sky or the woods or what we're doing right now lights me up. And you're like. Rupert says this thing too, where he's like, you know when you just feel wonderful and generous and you just want to give it all away and you just want to have lunch with a friend. Friend. You just want to give it.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Just giving it. You just want to love them and support them and. And he goes, don't you feel like you're your real self? We all go, this is the real me.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I've had that on drugs. I've had that. Not on drugs, but, like, I remember. Remember when I was on mdma, we were in Mexico, and I was like, I'm as good as gold. I'm as good as gold. I felt like I swept away the leaves and the streets were made of gold. And I was like, oh, my God, the streets are made of gold. And I didn't go, well, this is a fun cosplay. I was like, I'm home. This is me. I'm home.

[Val]

Yeah. You're like, this is just a pretend thing. And when I'm really fearful and defensive and anxious and mean, that's when I.

[Pete Holmes]

But that's what I was saying when I was in the situation room trying to frame it. We knew there was, like, a mask or there was a blurring. There was a. It feels like something's been added to the golden streets. And you can't see them often, but you don't go. You worry, what if this is the real me? But you have a intuition that it's not.

[Val]

And that's the difference is that there is. It's like, first you have to. You know, it's like that Buddha that was covered in mud, and then you chipped it away, and you realize it's gold. Like you. I think it's such a beautiful act. And what I've seen you do is when you actually do hurt somebody's feelings, when something you've done has wounded someone or affected them negatively and you're in the wrong in that way, you have to first usually go through all your protectors, like you did, then remember the gold, and then act from that place. Because if you're acting from the protectors or you're acting from the belief that you're a piece of shit, it's gonna just further the wounding for both of you.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Val]

It's like. It's like the. It's counterintuitive. It's like.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like saying surrender is actually the best strategy.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

We're not gonna surrender. What are you, nuts?

[Val]

Yes. But it's like. It's actually very important in this moment for you to remember that you're good. Like, fundamentally and not in the. Like, you'd. I know. We're using good. So, like, back and forth that you are whole, that you're true. That you're. You know, that you're light, that you're light. Yeah. Yeah. And. And so. And that even goes into the third part of the. The Stephen Colbert thing, which is so. It's like the beauty. That the beauty of the world is mirroring your own beauty. If you're brave enough to see. Takes courage to actually look at all, because you have to look at your whole self. You have to admit that you're walking around all neck, and that's so scary. You have to take armor off to see that. And then you'll see your beauty, and then you'll be this. The last part of this, who you really are, instead of trying to be good all the time. Trying to be good all the time is armor. It's. It's covering the neck. And it's only when we take it off and we're brave and we're vulnerable and we make mistakes and we feel like shit and we get scared and we, you know, feel all of the. The full feelings of this human existence instead of, like, stopping. Trying to be good and. Right. That's when we, like, see the beauty of the whole thing. That was. That's. That was Mary Oliver's message. Message. And she experienced it late. She was. She was nature bypassing. Like, she had childhood trauma. And she has, like, a really cool poem about. I think it's called Flair, about, like, burying her parents in that house and everything and walking away. And it's like, I'm just like, this isn't part of my life. Like, she's, like, burying them and walking into the woods. And that's what she did until she was, like, set in her 70s. And then when she was in her 70s, she realized, oh, wait, like, I actually have to look at everything if I'm gonna really be in this world and not just a visitor in this world. I have to, like, really look at all of this.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. It's almost like, don't. Don't settle for being good.

[Val]

Yeah. Don't.

[Pete Holmes]

Because in the holiness, the wholeness of. Including your brokenness.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But not mistaking that for you. That's the mystics. Okay. Like, oh, I. I did this. Okay. Okay.

[Val]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Instead of, like, the perfect. The. The sharpened pencils in the line on your desk and the good posture. And it's like, I did it perfectly.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And it's like, what.

[Val]

It's also like in our two different uses of good. It's like, the difference is never blow up a zeppelin. Don't even go outside. Don't even go near a zeppelin. That version of being good or get out there. You're gonna blow up some zeppelins, and then you're gonna figure out something from the pieces that. That's good.

[Pete Holmes]

And that's what no one's selling. And when I blew up a zeppelin, and there were flaming pieces of zeppelin, and everyone's seeing that I blew up a zeppelin, I. I was like, I don't want to blow up zeppelins. The first thought was, I knew it. Don't go around zeppelins.

[Val]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Being other people.

[Val]

Yes, exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

It's not worth it.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That was the first.

[Val]

And then who benefits from that? Like, nothing is learned.

[Pete Holmes]

And I don't want to turn this into, like, a. And it all worked out, but, like, in a sense, of course it did, because movies meant more to me, friendship meant more to me. And then I'm still not entirely through it. This is obviously helping, but, like, on the other side, as I started to come out of the mud, I was like, having so many ideas. Like, I needed art.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

So it made me want to make art. And I've mentioned this poorly a million times, but the poet that talked about. I forget his name, but he talks about asking a poet for a new poem is like asking for his heart to be broken because he knows it only comes from that space. It's like, go into the wounds and then come out. And even worse than, go into the wounds, get a new wound.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I didn't want it, but the new wound drew me to Richard, then drew me to an idea that speaks to these ideas. And then I've been like, writing in a fervor. This isn't the Western twist of, like, don't worry, everybody. I turned into something I can sell. Just writing it has been making me feel so. In my life that I, you know, I'm laying that, you know, because you just did your short film. When you know what you're after and what you want to create and share and say, you just sleep so much better. I would get up in the night. It's like being in love.

[Val]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I'd get up in the night and I'd be like, whatever. Your family, your parents are old. Aren't you worried about your old parents? And you just go, like, you'd remember this thing, this. This potential. And I brought that up because that's a horror. Right. That's a fear. Or maybe it's easier if it's like, you're a piece of shit and you go, no, I'm making that thing. It's like what we always laugh about in the family stone. I want to see the totem pole. Yeah, don't do that.

[Val]

Don't do that.

[Pete Holmes]

Don't. Jug. That felt like a hole just so he could sleep.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And the reason why we kind of tease that monologue is because it's so right.

[Val]

It's so right.

[Pete Holmes]

If there's a.

[Val]

Embarrassing that we are who lost his

[Pete Holmes]

wife, and then he makes a totem pole because he's compelled to. To do it. And when you're not feeling that, that seems so corny. But when you are feeling that, you're like, no, we all should be so lucky to be the guy on the island who feels emotionally broken and compelled to make a totem pole because his pain needs to be alchemized, needs to be converted into something that benefits everyone. And you're like, wait a minute. Holy. That's the whole thing.

[Val]

That's the whole thing.

[Pete Holmes]

I've been so sad, broken, whatever, that I started writing something that I'm like, I think this might be fucking incredible. And you go, what a system. Brokenness, shame, fear, loss, creation. Then urge to. Not just there might be some, like, cover it up and be a golden boy, but there's also just this, like, natural. Natural drum beat. Like, well, you hear it. I've been doing a lot of hearing and following metaphors, but, like, yeah, that's true. But you hear this natural rhythm that the community is calling you back to tell that story because they're also being broken and rebuilt and broken and rebuilt. And the broken person comes back with the totem pole or the story or the poem or the song, and they. And then everyone benefits.

[Val]

Everyone gets to see that and go, oh, thank God you're broken, too. And in the same way. And then they get to be broken and make their thing.

[Pete Holmes]

That's.

[Val]

And then we get to go, oh, my God, Thank.

[Pete Holmes]

Thank you for making that tenderness. And your vulnerability from being broken is what makes you receptive to their story.

[Val]

Absolutely.

[Pete Holmes]

That's why children don't like the Odyssey. You know what I mean? Or whatever.

[Val]

Yes, totally. You can't. You cannot find the beauty in someone else's brokenness until you have found it in yourself.

[Pete Holmes]

And you have to be. And I know I've been a little heavy on the Christ stuff, but, like, that's the crucifixion. That's the story we all can relate to. Isn't that weird?

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

He didn't behead Pilate and kill Caesar and lift over Jerusalem like a phoenix and vanish, Tortured, naked, humiliated, broken. And then that becomes. I know we talk about atonement theory, and it's turned into, like, it was his blood that sort of, like, magically washed your sins away. Okay. That's a nice way to say that story heals you. That story resonates with you deeply.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

We've turned it into fundamentalism. Meaning literalism. Meaning. No, there's something magic about this act.

[Val]

Right. But it's missing Any of the points that resonate with our actual real life.

[Pete Holmes]

It's actually brewer to say that's a way to point at what's happening. It's a metaphor for what's happening.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Is you're being redeemed. You're being healed by this pain because it reflects yours. And that's the, that's the flow of life. Death. What is it? Birth, Death? No, it's order disorder. Reorder. Order disorder, reorder. Yeah, Order disorder.

[Val]

Oh my God, that's right. I forgot. That's from fall. Falling.

[Pete Holmes]

Richard has a book called Order Disorder, Reorder.

[Val]

I love that. That's the whole thing. That's what we're talking about.

[Pete Holmes]

And he's quick to say, he makes this great point. He's like, we would have called Homer, who wrote the Odyssey, a pagan and we would have said he's in hell. And he's like, it just shows you how small minded we've been. And he goes, if it's true, it belongs to God. That's, that's his language. But he's like. And I was like, this man.

[Val]

Oh, I love that. If it's true, it belongs.

[Pete Holmes]

I love him. He also says this. I, I, he just can't help but sneak these little things in that heal our Christian or, you know, help us incorporate our. Whatever. He goes, he goes, christianity has a problem. He goes, Jesus says, love your enemies. But we have a God that doesn't love his enemies, that tortures them forever. He goes, that, that as a model will not stand right. It's tearing itself apart. Jesus says, love your enemies. We turn that into. Or God who hates his enemies.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Will murder you.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And torture you because you're one of his enemies. Even though God as a man says, love your enemies. I don't love my enemies. But you should. It's bad parenting.

[Val]

It's bad parenting. It's do as I say, not as I do.

[Pete Holmes]

It's, it's. And he's like, he just has a way. He just does that as an aside. He's kind of talking and he's like, yeah. By the way, have you noticed, have

[Val]

you noticed this fundamental thing?

[Pete Holmes]

He doesn't say it how I'm saying it, which is full gloat. Full, like, so there you go. He just goes like, he's like, brothers and sisters, we need to reconcile this.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You know when Jesus says, love your enemies, love your neighbor as yourself, all of that, that, that's home. And then it got twisted into. Or you'll be fucked. Up for eternity. And you're like, wait, which is it?

[Val]

Yeah, that's right.

[Pete Holmes]

And he. And he go, well, it's the one that feels like home.

[Val]

Yeah, that's right. Oh, good job. Life. Right, bro? Let's go on a water slide.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. We should have, like. I'm not going to say ice cream because I'm off the Sug Diary of a CEO. That's not why I feel so much better. But anyway, we should metaphorically eat watermelon ice cream. And I mean slip and slip.

[Val]

But I don't feel that. I don't feel that heavy from life. I feel, like, very inside.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I feel unburdened.

[Val]

Yeah, unburdened. And now I'm ready to go on a water slide.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. You know who's not going on the water slide? Charles Bukowski. You know what I mean? Like, you need to drop these things. We all need to. I was watching a Burning man documentary that Vikram Gandhi, my friend, made on hbo. It's very good. And I was so wrought. And Twist it up. And I'm watching all these free people at Burning man, and I couldn't help. I just watched my mind going like, you idiots. You idiots.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That's a burdened person.

[Val]

That's right.

[Pete Holmes]

See?

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That Someone crying, watching a temple burn down. A temple filled with pictures of people that they had lost. Those aren't idiots. That's.

[Val]

That's beautiful.

[Pete Holmes]

That's heaven. Yeah, but when you're wrought up.

[Val]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Even heaven looks like hell.

[Val]

That's right.

[Pete Holmes]

Hi.

[Val]

Hi.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm Trope. Maxim guy. How funny that Maxim became a magazine with, like, you don't want to see tits and ass, but you kind of want to see tits and ass. Maxim.

[Val]

Yeah, it was like, where the. The gray area.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, but it's called Max. Like, it's like how meme. Oh, meme is like a truth reduced to something digestible, and then it turned into, like, Steve Harvey going, like. Anyway, who cares? That riff for another time.

[Val]

All right, everybody. There you go. There's a podcast for you. Hope you're having a great summer. Stay cool out there and keep it crispy.