We Made It Weird w/ Kazik Radwanski (Canadian filmmaker!)

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes
Episode: We Made It Weird w/ Kazik Radwanski (Canadian Filmmaker)
Release Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Pete Holmes
Guest: Kazik Radwanski
Notable Co-Host: Val (Pete’s wife)

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Kazik Radwanski, an acclaimed Canadian independent filmmaker known for his hyper-naturalistic, observational style in films such as Anne at 13,000 ft and Matt and Mara. Pete Holmes and Val—self-proclaimed major fans of Kazik and the Toronto indie film scene—dive into his creative process, Canadian film culture, working relationships with fellow filmmakers like Matt Johnson and Dara Campbell, and the exquisite, deliberately small moments that define his work.

The conversation ranges from technical specifics (long takes, improvisational direction) to questions about how Canadian cinema finds (or fails to find) larger audiences, the philosophical role of art in the age of AI, and what it means to strive for presence and “human-ness” in movies. The episode is both an affectionate love letter to a distinctive filmmaking style and a genuinely instructive dialogue about craft—an essential listen for film lovers and creators.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Discovering Kazik's Films and the Canadian Indie Scene

• Pete and Val share how they stumbled upon Kazik’s work through Matt Johnson (best known for BlackBerry, Nirvana the Band the Show), marveling at Kazik’s unique voice and the way his films create a felt sense of presence and attentiveness to ordinary life.
• “Your films and we’re huge fans, aren’t just… you made this portal… my pupils are dilated, I’m letting in more light. It’s like a small dose of mushrooms or a good sit with a yoga master.” — Pete, 09:19

Kazik’s Approach to Hyper-Naturalism

• Kazik describes his filmmaking as deeply observational, rooted in accumulated small details from life (notably his work in construction sites for Scaffold).
• He credits documentary traditions and the influence of the National Film Board of Canada’s realism legacy, alongside European filmmakers like Mike Leigh and Cassavetes.
• The idea is not just to mimic daily life, but to make “average human life worthy of being observed.” — Val, 12:37
• Kazik: “What drives me is these small moments you could barely articulate that shape your life, or a part of your life.” — 75:07

Technical Process: Long Takes & Improvisation

• Kazik explains the balance between rehearsal and capturing life as it happens. He prefers to always have a camera rolling, favoring long, loosely structured takes (10–15 minutes or more), drawing honest, sometimes accident-driven performances from actors.
• Scenes are often heavily edited, with key storytelling choices arising in the cutting room.
• “We’d shoot a 15-minute take knowing we’d only want five minutes. It’s about getting in and getting out.” — Kazik, 27:39

Notable Quote

• “It’s almost like Freudian therapy—just let it get uncomfortable. That’s part of what’s going on.” — Pete, 31:43

Casting Real People & Using Real Locations

• Many of Kazik’s films use non-actors (e.g., actual daycare workers in Anne at 13,000 ft), and he often blurs documentary and fiction by folding in real anecdotes and personalities.
• This approach creates a distinct “freshness” and avoids the canned feeling common in some “mumblecore”-influenced films.

The Dynamic Between Actors (Matt Johnson & Dara Campbell)

• Kazik and the hosts discuss the essential dynamic between the impulsive, comedic Matt Johnson and the grounded, introspective Dara Campbell:
  • “If Dara had been another Matt, it would have been insufferable. That counterbalance anchors the scene.” — Pete, 25:52
• Directing style includes priming each actor separately to preserve miscommunication and authentic tension.
• “I’ll be giving one actor different notes, and then have the other contradict them, to control the tension.” — Kazik, 43:40

The Hidden Canadian Film World & Distribution Challenges

• Pete and Val repeatedly express shock that Kazik, Matt, Dara, and their work aren’t more widely known outside of Canada, discussing structural and cultural reasons.
• Kazik notes a recent shift: “The past 10 years, funding has opened up a bit…a nice sweet spot is happening where movies like BlackBerry are finally making inroads.” — Kazik, 53:04
• There’s discussion of the global accessibility of streaming and hopes for greater cross-border recognition moving forward.

Emotional & Philosophical Themes

• The panel meditates on art as a tool for presence in a world of constant distraction, and as a vital antidote to “AI Slop.”
  • “We like to see other humans making something that reflects us, so we don’t feel alone.” — Val, 57:18
• The discussion extends to theatrical viewing, communal experience, and the rise of humanist, tactile “delicacies” as a counter to algorithmic content.

On the Process: Making, Teaching, and Collaborating

• Kazik teaches at film school in Toronto and sees bad collaborations as an essential part of learning.
• He underscores the importance of building a trusted, recurring crew over time (producer, editor, DPs) before jumping to features.
  • “Knowing what made your work good—and what you need to keep making it good—is the next level.” — Pete, 87:24
• Advises aspiring filmmakers to make several shorts, refine the process, and avoid the seduction of legitimacy-through-budget/tools at the expense of voice.

Memorable Creative Decisions and Behind-the-Scenes

• The legendary Matt and Mara “kiss scene” at Niagara Falls wasn’t planned; the camera almost entirely misses the moment, but this “absence of spectacle” only elevates its emotional impact.
  • “It’s the moment where, I don’t know, it’s just, it elevates the whole piece for me. The absence is magic.” — Pete, 71:10
• Val and Pete are especially struck by Mara’s anti-music speech, which was based on a real viewpoint from actor Dara Campbell and felt radically true-to-life for the hosts.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Kazik’s Cinema as Meditation:
  “When I say slow, I don’t mean bad slow…You made this portal…It imbues life with all this richness that I think there’s an extreme deficit of because of scrolling culture…You see why I don’t want to call it a meditation, but it is.”
  — Pete, 09:15

• On Observing Mundane Life:
  “It creates presence…average human life is worthy of being observed…that’s making up a whole life, you know?”
  — Val, 12:37

• On Tension & Naturalism in Performance:
  “We’d shoot like a 15-minute take, knowing we’d only want five…cutting very improvised stuff like that is an art unto itself.”
  — Kazik, 27:39

• On Maintaining Freshness:
  “It’s very important to…not know what’s happening and be there, vulnerable. One of the ways to maintain freshness is to not know.”
  — Pete, 46:33

• On the Artistic Collaboration:
  “Making this project interesting for Matt and Dara was really the budget, in a way…it had to be perfect, idiosyncratic, something recharging for all of us.”
  — Kazik, 77:16

• On Filmmaking Advice:
  “Make a series of short films…build a crew, a support system, people you trust. You want to have that safety net before you make your feature.”
  — Kazik, 83:51

• On Why Outcomes Aren’t the Point:
  “This is our life…not the premiere, not after. Get good at recognizing how precious all of it was, or you won’t be able to enjoy the success or the failure.”
  — Pete, 91:10

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|----------------| | 09:15 | Pete’s meditation analogy—the effect of Kazik’s films | | 12:37 | Val on the value of observing average human life | | 25:52 | Pete on the Matt/Dara dynamic and counterweight in acting | | 31:43 | Pete on Freudian therapy and filmmaking (long takes) | | 43:40 | Kazik on his approach to directing actors for tension | | 53:04 | Kazik on Canadian film distribution evolution | | 57:18 | Val on art as reflection and connection | | 71:10 | Pete on the “missed” Niagara kiss elevating the film | | 75:07 | Kazik on “tiny moments” shaping a life as a creative driver | | 83:51 | Practical advice: shorts & building your film crew | | 87:24 | Knowing not only what made work good, but why | | 91:10 | Pete on presence and living in the creative process |

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Memorable Moments

• Pete emphatically recommends Matt and Mara and Anne at 13,000 ft, calling the films “spells” instead of content.
• Kazik explains the influence of the National Film Board and documentary roots on Canadian cinema’s realism.
• Multiple heartfelt asides about why Canadian filmmaking deserves international recognition, and jokes about why borders limit artistic fame.
• Val and Pete debate the anti-music speech and how rare it is to see such lived opinions on screen—which both mirrored their own views.
• Kazik’s vivid story of improvising the major “kiss” scene in Matt and Mara, and why the camera missing part of the moment is artistically meaningful.
• Film school digression: the importance of failing in a safe environment and building trusted creative teams.
• Reflection on theatrical experiences. Pete recounts an “old guy” calling out at a film, realizing that communal strangeness is the point (“the delicacy”).
• Philosophical closing: the creative journey and the process itself is the reward—“This is our life.”

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Conclusion

The episode is a celebratory and probing look at Kazik Radwanski’s method and ethos: filmmaking as a tool for presence, connection, and human observation; a process rooted in documentary realism, improvisation, and genuine collaboration. The conversation is rich in practical advice for aspiring filmmakers, delightfully nerdy about process, and skeptical of the “industrial” trappings of art-making. Above all, it is an affirmation of the value of quiet stories, ordinary moments, communal viewing, and the irreducibility of the human heart—even in an age of AI and infinite scrolling.

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End Note from Pete (96:29):
“Stop being stupid. Canadian film is film. Just watch it…we never get to be cool. I feel like we know something cool, and it’s Kazik.”

Transcript

[A]

Lemonade.

[B]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[A]

What's happening, weirdo?

[C]

What's. Yeah, we're excited.

[A]

We got a special one for you today.

[C]

We do. Why do you sound different than me?

[A]

I don't know. Because I'm a lady.

[C]

Because you're a lady. You're a lady of the afternoon. Of the morning. Late morning. Oh, shit. I have a call right now.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Okay. They haven't called me yet. It's okay.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

We're so glad that Kazakh Ravineski is here. Canadian filmmaker Kazakh Ravineski is here. He is incredible. We talk a little bit about how we found him, but he made these movies. We never get to feel cool. I really feel like we've discovered.

[A]

Yeah, but you've made it so uncool.

[C]

I know. By just, like, the new cool.

[A]

Pointing to it.

[C]

The new cool. To be like, isn't it cool? People, like, don't say that.

[A]

You also keep being like, nobody knows about this. Like, no one knows about this. And it's like there's a whole. There's a whole look. Section of the planet Canada. That's very. Yeah, Canada.

[C]

But it's not even.

[A]

But it's like the subject of like.

[C]

You're right. You're right. Film people probably know this. I just feel like it's, like, as obscure as Elliot Smith. No, that's not obscure. Yeah, it's as obscure as something. But I'm. It was obscure to me.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

I didn't know about it, so I'm really just speaking to myself. How did I not know about these guys? Matt Johnson, who we had on. And now Kazak, great filmmakers. And we're gonna play a little clip here. This is from his movie, Matt and Mara, which I recommend 10 out of 10. It's fantastic. But we want you to get a sense of the naturalistic approach that they use and the sound of it.

[B]

So.

[C]

So, Katie, play that clip and then we'll get into it. Get into things. Can't say get into it. We'll get into things.

[A]

Yeah. I know that you hate handsome men. Okay? So this is a thing that you need to do. You need to kind of, like, weirdly distort other men in your mind.

[B]

My memory shape.

[A]

Because you find male beauty, like, very disturbing. I remember this about you.

[B]

Gets tangled up.

[A]

No, I remember every time you encounter, like, a really beautiful man, you need to, like, say that he has a freakish jaw. You need to say that he has, like, deeply set eye sockets. Like, you come up. Or you're like, remember that guy that I thought was really handsome that you just kept telling me he had a limp.

[B]

He did.

[A]

He didn't have a limp. But you just had to say that.

[B]

He had a limp. He had a limp.

[C]

You're remembering these handsome men through rose colored glasses. You've done the same with your husband.

[B]

You've stretched him out like Silly Putty. Was he still growing?

[C]

Is that what's going on?

[B]

Like, was he so young that he hadn't fully gone through puberty? Now he's evened out at a 5. 5. I remember him trying to touch my face and this is what it looked like.

[C]

This is his arm extended and he was just trying to touch my face.

[A]

Never met him.

[C]

Yeah, Mara, he met me and he said, oh, you're growing a bit of a beard. He reached up the full extension of his arm and this is him. And his fingers were brushing my chin like this. I'm serious. Isn't that fun?

[A]

Yeah. I, I, I really highly recommend that you watch at least watch Matt and Mara before listening to this. But ideally you watch Matt and Mara and, and at 13,000ft.

[C]

That's fair. Thank you for cutting our listeners into eighths.

[A]

You don't have to.

[C]

I'm going to say you don't have to. It's a great conversation about naturalistic filmmaking.

[A]

It's also, it'll be better.

[C]

Have you seen it?

[A]

But you also should watch those movies anyway.

[C]

But they're in their car now. They're like looking for something else. They're searching smartless.

[A]

We've we already announced last week to get prepared for this episode. A lot of assumptions that they should watch those movies.

[C]

So they've had a week, by the way, our energy. So Matt and Mara right now.

[A]

Oh my God, you are, you were extra Matt Johnson for this interview.

[C]

Couldn't help it.

[A]

And the thing that I kept telling myself to not feel uncomfortable about is like, well, Kazak works with Matt, so he must like this kind of energy.

[C]

It was a thinly veiled attempt for him to write something where Matt and I are brothers, which is a dream of mine. Please, Please.

[A]

Yeah, but you also said specifically please during this interview. Like, if it's two people with mad, I know, then it doesn't work.

[C]

It's true. So you have to be in it as well. And I was a little grumpy because you went out last night and I hadn't seen you. And then we started doing this podcast and I was.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I, I'm sorry.

[A]

So you was giving me little, little tiny cuts for.

[C]

No, no, Cute jabs. But then I. I softened and I calmed and I love you so much and I'm sorry.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

But you can tell I'm a little salty up top. What fun. What real stuff.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

What real, real reality.

[A]

The real roo.

[C]

The railroad. I'm on tour. Go to petomot.

[B]

Com.

[C]

Chicago and New York come to mind. So please come and see me. But also Miami and the Carolinas and all these wonderful things. Denver, it's all on there. Milwaukee, go to Peter. Milwaukee. I don't know about that.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Go to PeteHomes.com and let me know what my tour dates are. And the show is brought to us by things that we use and like. Katie, roll that beautiful bean footage.

[A]

Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me. The show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 90 year old mom Judy to get her take on it All Wiser Than Me from Lemonade Media. Premieres November 12th. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

It'S morning in New York.

[C]

Hey, everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin.

[A]

And I'm Kathryn Grody.

[B]

And we have a new podcast.

[C]

It's called don't listen to us. Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me what is wrong with you people. Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice.

[B]

Show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th. A Lemonada Media original.

[C]

All right, everybody, we're so glad you're here. Kazak revival. We're so glad. He's so good. Enjoy it, Valerie.

[A]

Get into it. Okay, first right up top question. Is that the bookshelf from the ending of Matt and Mara?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. My. We shot a lot of yeah. Matamara in my. Where. Where I still live. Yeah. In my apartment. Yeah.

[A]

That's incredible.

[C]

That's a good, good eye.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

I actually, first of all, so happy to meet you. Thank you for taking the time to do this. And also very specific compliment. I watched Scaffold this morning and it's wonderful. And Val and I were just talking about this. A good filmmaker. So this is my opening. I was really thinking about this would be a good opening. A good filmmaker such as yourself, I. To call it a meditation makes it seem like boring or cheap or like something you don't want to do. It makes it sound like flossing, but in the. It has the same effect as a good meditation. Meaning watching it. This. This very. When I say slow, I don't mean bad slow, obviously. Very deliberate. Artful, masterful piece of art. When you finish it, you walk around your house. You hear the creaks of your feet and the sound of the water cutting on. You're pulling. You're not just making content or entertainment. You made this portal that when I leave 15 minutes later, my pupils, I always say this, but they're dilated like a. Like a camera lens. I'm letting in more light. I'm seeing dust. I'm seeing my reflection in glass. I'm hearing birds. I'm like. It's because your films and we're such huge fans, aren't just. And then on page 15, the guy loses his job. You're just. So you see why I don't want to call it a meditation, but I do want to say in the same way that maybe a small dose of mushrooms or a good sit on a cushion with a yoga master makes you imbues life with all this richness that I think there's a. An extreme deficit of. Because of scrolling culture and because of the inundation of world news filling every opening on your body constantly. And not just news. Your mom's Facebook. You're overwhelmed and you're fried. And what you do with Anna. 13. Is it 13? I always say 30.

[A]

13, 13.

[C]

Not too high?

[A]

He's asking me.

[B]

And you made the film 30 is the. The Twilight Zone episode.

[C]

Yeah. Way, way too high. But Anne and Matt and Mara and the shorts that you've made all do that. And that's the compliment I wanted to open with. They're like spells. They're expelled.

[A]

They really are.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's cool that you saw Scaffold and that's where that came from. I mean, it was. I was reflecting when I grew up working construction, but it's sort of like a privileged view and it was sort of like accumulating those little observations.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And I think I might have been microdosing a lot in that period, too. So when you.

[C]

Oh, is that right?

[B]

So, yeah. Just trying to, like, observe the small little things. Yeah.

[A]

Well, yeah, absolutely.

[C]

No, my turn.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I'm all jazzed and jacked.

[A]

I'm.

[C]

I'm jazzed and jacked.

[A]

He's been awake a lot longer than I have.

[C]

It's true.

[A]

Our energies are right.

[B]

Yeah. It's earlier where you are. Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We like Just dropped our. Our kid off at school. But that was. That leads into it is like. Yes, I'm gonna say what Pete said in a. In a different way, basically, but that after watching specifically Annette 13,000ft, when I'm just doing, like, mundane, like, making a sandwich for my kid and, like, doing dishes and around the kitchen, I'm like. I'm imagining myself in that angle, that, like, close angle, and it's quiet and I'm doing the thing, and it's just exactly right. Yeah. It's just another way of. Of, like, creating presence and. And it's such a beautiful.

[B]

I mean. Shut up.

[C]

Shut up, Shut up.

[A]

Start fighting.

[C]

Shut up. No, keep going. I'm loving this.

[A]

It's okay. But now I lost.

[C]

I blew it.

[A]

My brain is not good today.

[C]

I put. The reason I wanted to just interject is Keza. Can you record this on QuickTime on your end, just as a backup?

[B]

Sure, I think so. Yeah. Let me see. Yeah, I'll open up my QuickTime.

[C]

I'm sorry. Leave this in. It's. It's real moments.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I'm sorry, baby, that I interrupted.

[A]

No, no, no, no. I got.

[C]

I. I got nervous that he sounds so different from us.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, do I?

[C]

Like, it's because I'm not getting, like, the feed. You're on my lap.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[C]

I think it'll record fine, but I just. And if we release this where it's just us and you're not in it, will people notice? Because I'm yammering.

[B]

So.

[C]

So before you say something great about your process and everything, you have to share, it would be awesome if you.

[B]

Could do that new. Should I just do the audio?

[C]

Yeah, just do new audio and then.

[B]

And then select my microphone. It looks like it's picking it up. Great.

[A]

Oh, great.

[B]

Okay, I'll start recording now. Okay, great. Okay. Sorry.

[A]

No, that's okay.

[C]

But can I prime you back into what you were saying?

[A]

I think I got it. Like, it's.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It creates presence. And then it also is what I think film does at its best, which is sort of making the statement like just average human life is worthy of being observed. Like, it's precious enough to. To observe all those tiny little moments. It's like that's making up a whole life, you know? So it, like. Yeah, this is again, just what Pete said in another way. But, like, it's. It's incredible. The, like, shift in our minds and bodies when we watch your work. Like, it's just. It's like centering us back into alignment with like being present for our own.

[C]

And without making you uncomfortable. What's more important than that? I mean, I think it's funny that people are probably like, oh, he makes, he makes little. I'm doing my dad, he makes little movies. And I'm like, actually. And we just saw one battle after another and we had this experience where we were like, you leave with like hope for humanity in the age of AI and all this stuff. You're just like, oh my God, the human heart really is. And that's how we feel about your work. Please comment. We're talking too much.

[B]

No, that's great. And it's cool hearing that you're just dropping your kids off as well. Because, I mean, yeah, a lot of that film comes from, I mean, my mom, my mom's in the film. She, she plays the supervisor, but she like ran that, that daycare for 40 years. And I went there as a kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, Ann. Yeah. So I went there as a kid and then years later, what's unique about this daycare is a lot of the same teachers like, would work there for 20 years. So people that like looked after me as a kid were there and then I'd meet them as adults and it was really complex. Like I'd have my childhood memories and then seeing them as adults and then just imagining an adult in the situation. So I think in terms of like observation with that, a big part of grounding it for me was like the kids perspective and seeing, seeing Ann with children and sort of seeing it through.

[C]

That viewpoint, people, context. She's a, she's a preschool kindergarten teacher.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's called a daycare in Canada. So it's sort of like preschool and after school it's children like that. Again, it's a unique daycare where like 200 kids go there and it's all the way from like infant care up to I think grade one or grade two. So like the, the seven or eight year olds are like coming there after school, but there's some children that are there all day. But yeah, the key thing is it's like 30 or 40 women working too. It's like a very high stress environment.

[A]

Right? Yeah, totally. Well, that like getting into like the nitty gritty of it.

[C]

It's like you almost said it like nacho libre. He was going to say like nacho libre, but she wants to be serious for you because you're a serious filmmaker.

[A]

Nitty gritty. Just. I say nitty gritty. Yeah. But like, that meeting that they're having, you know, like, so are all of those acts.

[C]

Sorry, I need as the host to give some context. People don't know.

[A]

No, but we also told them to watch that movie and I don't think.

[C]

They listened to us. I don't think they're like, op. Eden. Val said why. We did put out a call and we'll explain in the intro. So the tiniest little thing is you are Canadian filmmaker Kazak, and I never even say your.

[A]

Say your last name for us.

[C]

Yeah, it was never said.

[B]

Red Vineski is Red Vineski. Yeah.

[C]

We were way off and we found you because we found Matt Johnson and we both love Matt a lot.

[B]

We.

[C]

I saw. Who cares? This is almost over. I saw BlackBerry and I was like, what is going on here? I really liked the way it was made and I really like Matt's character and just overall. And then I looked into it and Katie, our producer on the show, was like, you got to watch Nirvana, the band, the show. Then I watched that and then I said, we started. We watched Operation Avalanche. We watched everything we could. And then we started getting into things that Matt liked and, you know, he did the podcast and he's talking about you. And then we watched Anne at 13,000ft. One of your movies. One of your feature length movies. And then we watched Matt and Mara and we were really blown away. And before we get into the nitty gritty of like how you shoot in an aftercare or preschool or whatever you call it in Toronto, I've already forgotten what you do that makes you way more. And this is why I'm trying to get people to know why they should care is first we open with how your films really make people feel, which I think is what everyone is seeking after. Is that grounded. I am a member. I'm. I belong on this earth. And this. And my senses are amazing. So that feeling. But also you shoot in this way that Val and I were like, oh, I. I think he's done his own style.

[B]

Which.

[C]

No, nobody. No, you don't say anybody's like, oh, they have their own style. Wes Anderson, Tarantino. You know what I'm saying? Like, and Kazakh. And I've already forgotten how to say your name. But, like, you do this hyper naturalist. Naturalist. Natural. Is this naturalistic? Naturalistic. I want you to explain it. But this is what we're talking about. This is why you going to the school is significant. And I'd love. You know, I just watched the Smashing Machine, so there are other directors that are Going for a loose feel. And with all respect to that movie, it didn't work for me on every level. I thought there were parts of it that were great, but I also just was like, sometimes that style can feel like people are just rehearsing and I don't get that sense when I'm watching your film. So would you tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into the.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, from Canada, From Toronto, born and raised. And yeah, I've made all my films here. And yeah, that's also how I met Matt Johnson. Another. Another Torontonian. Oh.

[C]

But yeah, sorry, how, Where, How.

[B]

With our first features. So he had the Dirties and I had my first feature, Tower, and we just kept bumping into each other on the festival circuit, doing panels and stuff together. But we have a very similar background. We went to. We both went to film school. He went to one called York, I went to one called tmu. So we almost graduated around the same time. And also had a lot of. So that came up a lot with Matamara. That like this university experience or like 10 years, 15 years since university was sort of a shared experience. But yeah, we're both Canadian and I think Canadian films have a lot are really indebted to documentary. I don't know if you've heard of like the nfb, like the National Film Board of Canada, but until like the 70s, Canada just made documentaries which were like soft, kind of like soft propaganda. Just like, we exist, we're a nation. But a lot of Canadian filmmakers like Matt and I normally have this realism sort of ingrained into it and this sort of indebted to documentary in some ways. And Matt does it in a totally different way to me, where it's almost like. Like a mockumentary at times or playing with these tensions. But yeah, it's a real sort of shared perspective. A lot of my stuff in terms of like other filmmakers comes from a lot of like European filmmakers. Like, my parents are British, so I really like the British. Like Kitchen sink. Mike Lee, obviously someone like Cassavetes. I love any of these people. Tell us all over the place, tell.

[C]

Us what we should watch.

[B]

Yeah, there's one word you guys haven't said yet. It's normally used like pejoratively, but like the word mumble core, sometimes I'll get grouped in with that too. And it's funny, my earlier stuff isn't compared to mumblecore as much because it's more like non actors or like. Like in scaffold, like construction workers, like real people. But With Madame Mara and Anne, that words come up more because it's more like you can kind of tell they're somewhat artistic or sort of reflexive sort of looking at each other, which I feel like was a real hallmark of those mumblecore films in the, the mid 2000s. But yeah, people.

[C]

What is it?

[B]

Noticing a lot of people have been bringing up that word to sort of describe my more recent films. Do you guys know that word?

[C]

I know it in rap.

[A]

I've heard that word, but I. Oh.

[C]

In rap, well, there's mumble rappers, but like, what is a mumble core?

[B]

A mumble core, it comes from like 2004, 2005, like indie films. And it came out of south by Southwest, the south by Southwest festival, which is, I think why it has that kind of like musical sounding genre name. But yeah, like the Duplass Brothers. I don't know if you guys know, they were one of like the early Mumble Corps films. Greg Gerwig kind of comes out of that movement too. And it's sort of like mid-2000s, very digital, very like, no art direction, just sort of filming each other and sort of very like, like, like therapy, kind of exploring like complex feelings.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And which really had a boom mid to late 2000s. And then like safdies are kind of like late mumble core. And then they went on to making things like uncut gems. But their roots are sort of from there as well too.

[C]

But sorry, sorry to split hairs, but did you see the Smashing Machine?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Did you. Do you know what I'm talking about? There's something, there's just. There was something. I don't know, I really like those guys, you know what I mean? So I'm not, I'm not dragging anybody. There's just, there's a fine line between. As an actor, when we rehearse, it has a sound and it's not a good sound. To me it sounds like rehearsing where people are like, look, it's like when you do an impression of mumble core where you're like, do you, do you, do you. Are you going to drink this? And I can't. And I can't. And I don't think that's the average viewer. I was shooting a movie when I saw that movie. So I was very aware that I'm watching a movie. So like I was not a good audience member. So maybe it's amazing and I'm just wrong, but like it sounded like rehearsing. And when I watch any of your stuff, like you do Avoid that. It's not just people really trying to, like, add us and stuff or pauses or like, you know what I mean?

[B]

Like. Yeah, it's so fraught with. Yeah, we're a little aware of it. It's so funny, too. When we rewatch it, we realize how Canadian we sound and like, oh, sorry, sorry. We would never write that on paper, but it just sort of comes out and you sort of. It. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, again, collaborating with Matt, he's very sensitive to that. Like, he wants everything to feel real, everything to feel fresh. He hates doing, repeating or multiple takes or anything sort of sounding like what you were describing, sounding kind of canned or forced or awkward. And Dara, too, like, again, similarly, really likes working with, like, real things. And so, like, the. When we made Matamara, it was really like an effort to, like, how can we keep this fresh? How can we keep, you know, it not feeling awkward or forced or corny or.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That constant effort to, like. Yeah. Figure out a process that felt good.

[C]

Well, it's funny. You have a. Sorry, baby.

[A]

No, go ahead.

[C]

You have a sharp person being natural. Like, Matt is very sharp. He's a fast talking, smart, funny person. So that protects. But like, I am also speaking off the cuff right now, but it doesn't sound like. Well, so as a, you know, like bullshit. So, like, life sounds lots of different ways. But I think when people think. When an actor thinks be naturalistic, they think like, they think it's just that, but it's not. There's all different kinds of folks.

[B]

Other thing with Matt, too, is he sort of has a comedy background as well. So, like, his idea of improvising is a little different than we improvise a lot of Matt Amara. But his idea of improvising is very different from Dara's. And at times I feel like I probably couldn't have directed Matt if I didn't have Dara there. That so often when I'll be working with Matt, he'll kind of take over the scene. He'll grow it. And other actors will be trying to, like, impress him and sort of get it crazier and crazier. And Dara was just always amazing at cutting through that and kind of keeping it real or saying sort of like saying no to Matt or like bringing him back in. But his. He. Yeah, he goes to really interesting places or he'll start criticizing the scene within the scene. Like, if it seems too limited or too obvious, he'll start almost making fun of it or putting in too much exposition. So yeah, there is. But yeah, I think his background in comedy is sort of interesting or I noticed that a lot on set. Just in terms of like being funny, being real and finding genuine moments. It was a constant negotiation with him at times.

[A]

Yeah, you were. And you. You wrote Matt and Mara for them, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, so you must.

[B]

It like grew directly out of Anna. 13, 000ft. It was sort of like that did pretty well for a Canadian film. And it was the pandemic. And we're like, let's get funding to make something else. And we just quickly put together a package, but with two of them on board and got some funding.

[C]

But it's funny if.

[B]

If.

[C]

I'm sorry, what is the actress who plays Anne.

[B]

Dara. Dara Campbell.

[C]

Dara had been another Matt. I think it would have been insufferable.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So it's very interesting. And I would say Val and I have a similar dynamic compliment to both our self and to you. I'm just unbearably likable, just brilliant, just always funny, always engaging. If a scene is boring, I'll start tearing it apart. And valves. There is like a paperweight.

[B]

I'm just kidding.

[C]

Never mean to you. Never mean to you. I don't know why I did that. I meant a counterweight. She's there to anchor the scene and make it not. Fucking nuts. Like, I would hate to see a movie with two matte energies.

[A]

Yeah, but you must have seen that dynamic and thought there was enough there to.

[B]

Yeah. Or just that they're opposites. I think that was a big core. Which. Which becomes really interesting. Like, why are they hanging out? Why is Dara spending time with Matt? Or why is Matt. Because they're so different. You kind of. There's that extra thing of like, there must. Something else must be going on. Like, what. What's behind this? Yeah, but also it's just like endless fuel. And even like when we're doing festivals and Q&As with the two of them, it feels like a scene out of the movie. Like they start about the scene and we're doing a Q and A and it just feels like it could be a scene in the movie.

[A]

Wow, that's incredible. So that was my going back to the multiple takes. That was one of my number one questions. Because it never. It never feels like you've done multiple takes. It feels like it's like maybe was like, you know, an hour. Like one scene is like an hour of footage that you then went back and edited into one scene. Is, are you Often doing multiple takes. Let's think. Yeah, like the thing, the scene that is in my mind right now is, you know, when Mara finds the gold earring in the car and they have that fight.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like walk us through how you.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We would do multiple takes. Yeah, for sure. I shoot a pretty high ratio and long takes is part of it too. So, like we'd be shooting like a 15 minute take, knowing we'd only want five minutes of it, but it'd be like getting in and then getting out. That scene was particularly complex. I mean, we shot that near the end of the film. So stuff was brewing on both of their sides, you know, and sort of growing. Yeah, growing into that scene. Like, we couldn't have shot that at the beginning. They had sort of found things. And Dara is able to articulate it so beautifully. Some of the dynamics, like she's almost analyzing how she's being perhaps manipulated or how her character thinks she's being manipulated. But yeah, no, we would. But we'd also do it driving. Like I would be in the back or in another car and then I'd be able to go again, so it'd be fairly loose. But yeah, we probably did 10 or 15, 20 minute or so takes. Yeah, just driving and redoing it. And I think a huge credit. Just when we're talking about this is also, again, like, Matt is so experienced, like making so many episodes of Nirvana, the band, the show, doing that in a loose way, working with real people and then of course editing himself and directing himself. So he's got a lot of great instincts and. And so does Dara. Like they're both sort of familiar with similar processes. And then it's. We've been shooting for. We shot this for quite a while, like when we had spare time, like weekends, evenings. So it's a few months of living with this dynamic and then collaborating with them to shoot this driving sequence, which was, you know, at that point a lot isn't said. You know, like, they've kind of figured it out. I've kind of figured it out. I create this scenario. I give them a few notes between takes, but it's just kind of doing it. I also have an amazing editor who's cut all my stuff for like 15, 15 years and has a lot of image. Cutting very improvised stuff like that is an art unto itself. So there's a lot of just lucky intuition and just instincts that we've sort of accumulated over a while.

[A]

Incredible. And then. So how. How different is. Let's just take that scene, like, how different is the final product from what was written in the script.

[B]

It's funny. Like, we are finally putting together the Blu Ray for it and we're debating if we should do like a mat cut or. Because we cut so many scenes of Matt, there's a whole bunch of mat scenes where he's like, solo and there's no Mara. And at some point in the edit, we're like, this has to be from her perspective. Like, it only really works if we kind of see Matt through her eyes. If we see Matt, it like kills the mystery. That was also like, Matt watched a few early edits and he was like, keep. Like, this is Dara's film, this is Mara's film. I should be in it less. But there's some really cool stuff of Matt alone, some hilarious stuff of like him working with people he's just met on the street. And so. But yeah, that's one instance where there's like, you know, there's like a two and a half hour cut with a bunch more matte scenes. And then there's the. We'd love to see our 20 as.

[C]

Fans would love to see the mat cut. Please do the Mac. That's what Blu Rays are for.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

We want it. That would be amazing.

[A]

It was absolutely the right choice for the film. But I agree, we'll.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

The extended.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about long takes because when again, I just shot something and I'm always like, why is everyone yelling cut? I know, I know there's a schedule, but I'm always like 30 seconds, just 30 more. And I'm not just talking. Saying that as an improviser. What actually came to mind is I did this voiceover campaign and I was a talking baby. Who cares? The point is, is the, the. It would be open, the record would never stop. And when they were editing it, it was just my voice. So they would often use me talking to the director in the final cut. Because there was a way that I would say, oh, I see. That's what they used me saying, oh, I see, in a very natural way to the director. And they put it in the spot.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I was just like, it's almost like Freudian therapy. The therapist sits behind you and lets the patient get uncomfortable. Is that part of what's going on?

[B]

Totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah. And even. I mean, I don't rehearse much, but I always want a camera. And maybe it's similar to that sort Of Freudian thing of just like, we're talking less, the camera's rolling and we're just kind of doing. But, yeah, that quickly changed from like, no rehearsals. Let's always be camera ready. Let's always workshop stuff. We don't know what we'll find. So with Madamara in particular, the first scene that we shot, and we shot so much of this and very little of it made into the film. Maybe it feels like there's more of these scenes than there are, but it was a walking sequence. So the. I think, yeah, when they're walking up Yonge street, like sort of the main street, we would just shoot that. And at one point we were trying to shoot coverage so that we had them, like, walking in a circle or doing the same route and going back. And then at one point we just decided, let's just keep walking straight and it'll work. And they just would walk for like an hour and a half, sort of making conversation. We'd sort of restarted a few times, but we found that just them getting into that rhythm, that kind of conversational rhythm of what walking and talking, just. We needed that sort of looseness to it. So that was maybe the most unusual way or sequence that was shot, but. And the cameraman was really falling apart towards the end, sort of walking backwards up a street for so many takes.

[C]

And he was like, three feet in front of them.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

It's interesting because it reminds me of once. Remember the movie once?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And they shot that with really, really long lenses so people wouldn't know they were filming. But here you are.

[B]

Yeah. It's a smart way to do it. Yeah. Another similar MOV movie is the Ethan Hawke one right before we rewatched that. And they shot it so differently. Like, that was very controlled. And you could really hear the script. I mean, it's a brilliantly written script, but it was a very different atmosphere. So we spent a long time figuring out, like, how we could. How we could do this on a real street without shutting down the street. Like, how we could have. How we could steady the camera, sort of build a rig and figure out a way where we could keep it loose but still have it. Because there's a big difference between Anne and Madame Mara. I mean, for me, at least, that it's a lot smoother in Madamara. Like, if we shot at the Ann way, it would have. We just felt like we wouldn't have been able to follow the conversation at all. And also the other big thing we were negotiating was focusing on two people A bit more than just one person and sort of charting a conversation rather than focusing on someone's alienation as sort of like the central point. But yeah, that scene in particular, back to like that idea of just the looseness of it just seems so essential for it to feel like a real conversation or.

[C]

And those aren't real people in the background. Sorry. Those are real people is what I meant.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just strangers.

[C]

And was that a problem? Did anything?

[B]

Not really. You know, like you get targeted a bit where people just want to like you're in my way or just like they're having a rough morning and just kind of want to draw attention or be frustrated or. So we had a few stops, but not really. We were able to sort of keep rolling with it. And of course Matt loves it. I mean, it's very much like his style of shooting. Like the pros outweighed the cons. It kind of like charged it and just gave us a bit more energy, I think doing it so live and on location.

[C]

That's interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

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[A]

Well, going back to Annette, 13,000ft in the daycare again, like, I would love just the, the details. So does very much feel like all of the people who work there are real people who work there in these.

[B]

Yeah, it's a split. Yeah. So several teachers actually work there, including my mom, who was like the supervisor that has kind of like the. Com. Like the, the HR kind of meeting with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With Anne towards the end. But yeah, a number of the staff and also a number of the children as well too. We sort of. There were some scenes that were sort of smaller scenes or just sort of textured scenes where Dara would go into a classroom and just kind of, just to get the general ambience. And then we worked with, I think it was about a dozen children, half a dozen. And it would almost be like acting camp where like every weekend we would shoot with him for about two hours. And that's how we sort of built the more, you know, when she tells the cat story and has like the shark boy definitely emerged out of that. Like he was just this young actor we found and he just could talk about sharks endlessly. And we sort of built that into, you know, one of the, the characteristics of those kids. But yeah, with. So it was a mixture. So some of it was pure just documentary. Some of it, some of them were actual. So in that meeting scene where they're putting their hands up and telling anecdotes, they're telling real anecdotes like they are actual teachers sort of talking about their frustrations and then. But yeah, the woman who Dara gets into the argument with about the cop, yeah, he's an actor. But that story is based on a real anecdote. And what's funny is so much of it's toned down. Like we screened this a few times to the daycare teachers and like they were familiar with the stories and what we were doing, but it was. They. They were also aware that this was like we really toned it down. That it was a lot.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

A lot more chaotic in real life. Yeah.

[A]

Oh my gosh, that's wild. Well, that woman Is fantastic. I would have never guessed that she was. As an actor, I really felt. I mean, I knew that she was acting upset at Anne, but I just like, she's so. They're just so natural. It's unbelievable.

[C]

What's interesting about movies that have tones, Right? Because again, sorry to keep mentioning that I just did a movie, but we were all kind of laughing, like, I think the movie will come not come together. It was a great movie the whole time, but we were joking that, like, there wasn't really a tone conversation. And often there isn't, in fact.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I think every movie I've done, no one's ever said. Except one. No one's ever said, hey, this is the tone. Please think of these kinds of movies when you're doing this. How do you. What. What's a direction you would give somebody to be like. You can't. Like I said, you.

[B]

Yeah, it's funny. In terms of tone or, like, thinking of other movies. With Matt Amara, we definitely had references. Like, when I was pitching it to Matt, there's an old British movie, Brief Encounter, David Lean, and I'm like, we're doing that. He's like, okay, I'm on board. Like, he. He sort of understood that type of relationship that sort of. Will they, won't they?

[C]

Oh, fun. We'll watch that.

[B]

Another. Another director I've haven't talked about who's really obvious is Cassavetes or when. When people talked about mumblecore. The other name was Slack of Eddie's, but there's a Cassavetes film called Minia Moskowitz, which is two opposites, and they're kind of channeling more classic screwball dynamics. But it's like in the 70s with generalans and Seymour Cassel, but, like, generally. And his character is somewhat like. Dara is like, a little pretentious. And then Moskowitz is sort of like a bull in a china shop. And it's sort of that dynamic. It's funny. I showed it to Darren. She's like, this is way too angry. I don't want to do this at all. But definitely for me, was something that we would talk about too. In terms of, like, tone. Yeah. At times, like, we would really be consciously trying to do something, and other times we'd be trying to discover the tone or sort of react to it.

[C]

But if that actor in the scene that came in the classroom and they haven't seen Brief Encounter, I mean, you and Matt are weirdos. You're on.

[B]

Yeah. And Dara, too. Yeah. Also a big Big movie weirdo. Yeah. So what do you.

[C]

What do you say to somebody that's just a day player and they had a. That you like their vibe. And they come in and Kazakh, let's say the line is, what time are you guys gonna be done in this room? And they just keep doing it like an actor like me, like, hey, what time are you guys gonna be done with this room? And they find their angle and they find their light and they're. They're turning the good way. Like, what do you do?

[B]

So I suppose with actors, yeah, it's really. Especially an actor new to the process. Yeah, it's so grounded in conflict of just like there is a. So with that scene, there was just such a easy conflict of this. You know, we. We rehearsed it for a while or sort of found our way into it of like, you know, like small passive aggressive comments, sort of building up to this explosion, but almost setting up this dynamic that, you know, she'd been teaching there for a while and then she's. Her day is harder because of. Of Anne and. And we would workshop it up to, you know, the cup being thrown or. And so in some ways too, I'm also working with Dara and almost directing the new actor through her and kind of escalating it or one. I mean, in terms of direction, in terms of controlling tone, it sounds sort of overly simplistic. But I really like to preserve talking to each actor individually and not as a group. Like when she throws the cup, you do this. I sort of talk to one actor in the hall, talk to the other one here, and we're sort of preserving that, like, miscommunication. And I'll be giving one actor, like, do this more, and then I'll have the other actor contradicting them or. But so that scene was quite easy to direct just because there was such a central conflict. And I would be like, you know, Dara, ignore her more or, you know, don't respond to her or roll your eyes or just like, I would build different sort of triggers for the other person to sort of react to and sort of control the tension that way. But yeah, again, in terms of like, long takes and sort of just building the atmosphere, it would be that, you know, we would do a lot of work of just sort of slowly growing the tension between the two of them. And I think I forget exactly what we did, but I think, you know, we maybe had another smaller conflict of like, tidying up or moving something around or the other person, you know, just feeling just to have that pet peeve or thing sort of growing under the tension. Yeah.

[C]

So cool. It's also something else that came to mind in achieving this style that we just love so much. You're talking about the bogeys, the term for people that aren't in the movie, coming into the movie.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[C]

Or something that the other actor doesn't know the other actor's gonna do because you're directing them privately. What keeps coming to mind is this idea of you don't want anyone in a trance. You don't want anyone, like, unconsciously going through the motions of making a movie. So there are these things that, like, snap you out of it. It might be somebody on the street. It might be. Literally your camera operator is getting tired and they misstep on a street they're not familiar with. But it seems to me. And don't let me lead you, but it seems to me that it's very important to you to maintain that freshness. And one of the ways of maintaining freshness, maybe the only way, is to kind of not know what's happening and to. And to be there.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Vulnerability.

[B]

To catch it 100%. Like, on the simplest level. Love working with children because of that. Love working with animals just for that chaos to sort of charge everything. But, yeah, I still have this fear, but certainly with my first feature, there was a fear of, like, getting tired, getting, like, overwhelmed. And, like, let's just finish this film, you know, like, let's just follow the script and execute it. And I think I've always, as an instinct, had a bit more than what we need, you know, and. And have options so that we're constantly kind of deciding or being present. But I'm worried about. Yeah, like. Like you sort of said, like, being, like, falling asleep at the wheel or being a zombie or, like, in some ways, like, making mistakes. But I think also just, you know, making. I always feel like, what's the best way to say this? That, like, I want to make a film because it's better than my initial idea, you know, that will get to somewhere more interesting through the process by, like, working with Matt, working with Dara and, like, the cinematographer, like, all of us kind of nurturing this thing will get to a way more complex, interesting thing than what I could, like, write out alone.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it also sounds like a skill as a director. It's funny. Sorry. I'm going to relate this to me. Val once said, you ever have to poop so bad you pee? Second. And then I went, that's funny. And I wrote it down and it became a very popular joke of mine. And in the joke, I concede that Val said it, but what I'm saying is part of my skill as a comedian is. Is just hearing funny things. And your skill as a director is going, matt and Mara are good counterweights, not paperweights. I love you so much. Counterweights to one another. And this. This is a good dynamic. Does that make sense?

[B]

Not just totally and no, there's a little bit of exactly what you described. Because, like, I'm friends with Dara and Matt in real life, so sometimes they'll tell me a story or something will happen to that and I'll be like, that's. That's a scene for the movie. So in Matamara, when she goes on that strange rant about how she doesn't like music. Yes, that is Adara ism. Like, she goes on that rant about it, and it's one of those, like, strange rants where it doesn't quite make sense and people will be like, why would she be married to a musician if she hates music? But, like, she goes off on that rant and she's dated many musicians, and it's just like this perfect kind of thing. But it's also like, I just kind of know if we set this up, she's going to be able to do a lot with this. And it's so funny. Even in the Q&As or, like, talking about the film, she'll get a bit offended sometimes. Like, people will be like, but no, clearly, like, music is. And she'll be like, what do you mean by that? And, like, start buying. Yeah, that's totally a thing.

[C]

That's right. So you're like, you're buying furniture kind of for a room furniture, but you're buying. But that's a real skill. I was going to bring that up because I thought maybe she was representing your attitude. Now that we're talking about music, clearly it's hers. But Val and I paused, I think, to talk about. I've never seen my feelings about music on a film. So if Dara ever.

[B]

Do you agree with Mara?

[A]

The same rant I've tried for years.

[C]

I have a bit written out called I hate music. The truth is, I don't always hate music, but a lot of the time I do. And I just don't understand why people would stand and listen to it. And I'm like, it makes sense in a movie, it makes sense in the car. It's a background thing. And I'm friends with musicians, too. And, like, I play music. I like playing. Playing music makes sense. But just kind of twiddling your thumbs and listening to someone else's song doesn't always make sense to me.

[A]

Well, it's. It's so interesting because what I love about that is how, like. Like how I feel. Like you really feel the tension of her husband, too.

[C]

Yeah, because her husband's a musician.

[A]

Obviously, I'm relating to.

[B]

Yeah, everyone in real life, too. Like. Like Maneer or who plays Samir is a musician in real life. Like, that's his music. And then everyone at that table was a musician as well, too. Gosh.

[A]

It was the real tension of her, like, disparaging their. Their art.

[B]

I.

[C]

But I'll. I'll say. I don't know. If she says this. It's a sensitivity issue. It's because I'm paying attention and you're playing 30 songs, and I'm like, I don't know what you're doing to me. Like, I let you in my heart. And if I'm unstressed and open, almost any song will make me cry. Just the fact that it exists will move me. But if you're just putting it on at a fucking Chipotle. I tried to make this point in.

[B]

A script I wrote.

[C]

I was like, if you were standing in line and Maroon 5 was behind you playing the song live, you'd be like, can you guys fucking stop? But why is it okay? Because it's on a speaker. It's just as distracting. It's someone else's consciousness invading yours. And you didn't ask for it. You didn't consent to it. And they're like, it's been one week since you looked at. Get the fuck out of here. I was thinking about my dad. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I do, yeah. I mean, yeah. I love. I love it. I love that you're building on it. And no one's really made that. Push them for the argument more.

[C]

Please tell her. Well, tell her two things. One, I think she's. I'm like, is this Meryl Streep? We don't understand how brilliant.

[A]

Oh, great.

[C]

Is it just. We literally, with full respect to Canada, we think this about you and Matt and. And Dara.

[A]

And Dara.

[C]

Dara. I call her Dara. It's a thing. It's a joke. Joke. It's a bit. We're like, is it just a border? Like, a border? Like, why? You guys, with full respect to your success and you've had Success. I'm just like, everybody should know about you guys. There's, there's a, there's a guy eating a sandwich with a, with an arm that goes up and down, and we call this country us and we call this Canada. And therefore I. No one knows about these people. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[A]

I think people know.

[C]

Matt. When Matt did my podcast, he said.

[B]

A lot of very Canadian things. We lose a lot of people to the States. All of our great actors go south of the border.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think that's also what's interesting with Matt and Dara is that they seem defiantly wanting to stay in Toronto or in Canada. I think Matt has now made a film in the States, but for a long time, there's a weird sort of. I think that we all have that in common, that we want to stay where we grew up and not look for, for bigger jobs south of the.

[C]

Yeah, you don't want to be the farm league for the state.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[C]

But I, I. What's weird? In this global economy, like, we can see, I don't know, like, literally, why doesn't it get bought by Netflix? I guess that's a boring business conversation.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there are some, I mean, and like, BlackBerry is a success story, and there's been a couple others. There's a few coming down the pipe that are pretty exciting. A really beautiful film called Blue Heron that premiered at Tiff or Locarno. This just like last month, was just picked up by Janice or Criterion, and I think is going to get, like, a big release in the new year. So. But yeah, I mean, there's lots of very Canadian things I don't need to go into detail with, but there is. The past 10 years, there's been a nice kind of boom or like, funding has opened up a bit, and it's been kind of in conjunction with digital filmmaking and festivals and streaming and things being able to be shared a bit more. That that's this wave kind of bubbling up. But if you were to look 20 years ago, it was like, we're throwing a lot of money at big telephone productions, and they're just not only playing in Canada and they can't compete. So it's like we, we can't compete with the marketing of the States, you know, with certain films or. Yeah, there's lots of. But yeah, there is this nice sweet spot happening where movies like BlackBerry or other movies are finally making inroads. A really amazing film last year called. What was it called? Universal Language from Winnipeg I think got a decent release in the States.

[C]

Yeah, I'm writing it.

[B]

Yeah, see we never. Kind of a small miracle. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, really? Yeah, see we never. That's. You actually said exactly what I was trying to say, which is like, streaming doesn't travel. Nobody checks streaming's passports. You watch the Puffy Chair? Hey, you might like this. You know what I like why, like everyone here and Mark and Jay are both friends of ours, we love them dearly, are huge fans. Everyone knows who the Duplass Brothers. If you like films, I don't understand why that can't go like, hey, also this is happening. Like, everyone would be on board with that because you say a boot.

[A]

It all comes down to the stories.

[B]

It's the stories and the abilities one that I.

[C]

And the like, intense kindness.

[A]

Well, maybe we're on the brink of that.

[C]

That's what. That's. Because what. What's going on with you and with Matt and. And. And with Canada, it seems in general, and this is what America does best, is we find where organic things are happening and we like crudely claw it up and cover it with money.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I don't want that to happen to your scene. But like, we do it with music. We do. We would do with everything. I don't understand why the holdup with what I think are some of the best movies being made.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting to just think, like, thinking of the past and when it has worked. Like SCTV kind of, I think existed in the States. Kids in the hall. Like there were. And then it kind of fizzled out for a bit, but it seems like that's coming back, you know, and when I think of like kids in the hall, it seems so Toronto, so specific, but it works. And I think there might have been a period of time in Canada where we were trying to not seem as Canadian or something. And now, you know, it's just like Toronto is a big city. Like, it's a big city. It's not that different from Chicago or, I don't know, Phoenix. Like, it's a big place and it's just another city. It doesn't. Doesn't need to be this divide that it's Canadian, that it's like the regional differences are, you know. But anyways, I think there's been a bit more of that spike of just like not trying to second guess who's going to watch this and just making what's interesting to us and then naturally that will travel because, you know, some. If something is specific, something feels real.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, people respond to it.

[A]

It reaches an even broader audience, the more specific it is. Yeah. And I also think that there, I suspect that there's going to be a larger market for hyper realistic, grounded things as sort of like a counter swing to AI.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[B]

That's interesting.

[C]

Yeah, those are the delicacies.

[A]

I think we. Yeah, that.

[C]

That's somebody walking through the shot. Something. Yeah, go ahead, baby.

[A]

I'm sorry. Yeah, that's it. I just, I. I don't know exactly, like, how long it. It will take, but I do think the thing that we never remember about ourselves is, is that we, we like to see other humans making something that reflects us back to us so that we don't feel alone. And so the more realistic, you know, stuff is going to feel like mirrors to us, which will start to feel really like rarefied air. Because AI is just sort of making all this stuff that has almost nothing to do with us because it's not right. It's not another person behind it.

[C]

Well, it's all the donuts in the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, you like novelty, huh? How about all the novelty in the world and it becomes meaningless. That actually gives me hope. The fact that we have the term AI Slop and everybody uses this. I'm like, oh, this is good. This is helping us recognize that you feel it. You feel an editor making choices. You feel a sound designer making choices in the music and I hate music. I'm just kidding. And you want to feel the humanity of a thing.

[B]

Totally. Yeah. It's interesting thinking of it. Yeah. The future or like generationally. Like, it's interesting seeing like Gen Z viewing habits and like, you know, like the resurgence of vinyl or. I've noticed it a lot with like, it seems like Gen Z people growing up are like more interested in seeing unusual things in theaters. Like, it's. They don't take it for granted or like. I had a really interesting conversation with these like, film school kids where they wanted to get physical tickets for the films. Like, they're getting frustrated with digital tickets. And like, we don't go to this theater because they won't print off a physical ticket for us to keep. And it just seems like they are interested in like a unique experience. And like me growing up, it was just a given that you go and see a movie every weekend and it was just. But now that it's less of a given that like, only sort of more interesting kids are seeking out theaters. Like so many Gen Z people just stream stuff and watch it at home. But like, if you go to the theater, you want to see something personal, you want to see something a bit weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've noticed like when I was a student, I'd get so mad at sometimes like encountering like experimental work or weird stuff. And I'd be like, they've broken the rules. But it seems younger people, at least maybe at certain theaters in Toronto, but they seem very open to like seeing something different or weird, which feels encouraging and I think could be. I mean, we could be very cynical about AI, But I think the bounce back is that very personal, human things might be appreciated a lot more.

[C]

I think getting what you want is a great way to realize it's not what you needed. Yeah, it's. It's like exposure therapy. It's like, here's Jake Paul slam dunking a watermelon from Half Court, but the court is the ocean filled with great white sharks. And then he falls in and dies. You see that? You feel absolutely nothing. And when I'm watching Scaffold, you see a ladder being lifted up, three ladders being lifted up. And you're like, oh, this person has me. And the theater too. Having just seen one battle after another in the theater, we're like, you know, it really, it mirrors the human experience. You have a field of vision and then there is just sort of like this darkness behind you that you. You see in letterbox. You know what I mean? Like your friend. I know it is a little bit more round, but the main focus is this like wide rectangle. And you go in and you borrow this other consciousness. You get to drop yours and you're immersed. And people in like, like 1937 were also distracted. They didn't have phones and stuff, but they needed the help too. They were worried about tuberculosis and all these different things. And they went in the theater and the lights dimming and the, the main focus and everybody pointed in the same direction. And the people watching it with you helped you drop in. Totally. I think people are realizing we need that help too. Let's not second screen this. Let's just watch one thing together. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Actually, I just, I host a screening series in Toronto. We just screened this really am documentary about video stores called Video Heaven. And yeah, you just realize like just going to a place and it being sort of, you know, making a decision to watch something. We're gonna rent these three movies and we have the weekend to watch them and then we have to return them. Yeah. It seems like obviously, you know, you can stream anything you want. You have endless choices, but being confronted. Go into a somewhat communal space or just that ritual of going. Choosing something. And it's the same with, like, a movie theater. Like, sure, it's the big screen, everything, but it's just. Yeah. Sitting next to other people that are also focused. And that sort of communal thing is.

[C]

It becomes a delicacy. There was an old guy, when we saw one battle that kept going, like, oh, he's after him now. Like, just kind of talking. And at first. At first I was annoyed, and then I was like, no, no, be an alien. Just be a time travel.

[B]

Totally. Yeah.

[C]

And go like, this is what it was like seeing a movie in 2025. There's an old guy, and he's a delicacy. Like, enjoy it.

[B]

Absolutely. Or. Some of my favorite memories of movies are, like, horror movies and people shouting at the screen. Yeah, it's. It's great. Yeah.

[C]

Borat. People were running through this. You were gonna say Borat. Yeah.

[A]

It's unforgettable. Like, experience.

[C]

Just everybody on your phone. I mean, it's just not the point. Or Jackass. I'm not even a huge Jackass fan, but I remember seeing those in the theaters and people freaking the fuck out.

[A]

Well, I just. I do feel like the core of all of it, of everything, really, but, like, of. Of film and art. It's like. It's like the fact that we, like, put on parades and we wave to the people on the floats, and they wave back to us. Like, that's what we're doing now. We're making art.

[C]

Love that. Love that.

[A]

To just be like, I'm here. And you're like, that's like, me. You're here, too, and I'm here, and we're here. Like, we're checking in with each other.

[C]

Your movies wave hard at us. They. And we feel very much less alone.

[A]

Yeah. It's all about being less alone. So I don't know if it. If it's. It seems like the new generation who, like, they've been raised with technology, so it's almost less sexy to them as it is for our generation that, you know, was like, oh, my gosh, this changed everything.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I think that they. I think they'll start to crave that, like, crave waving to each other at parades in every form, because it's just so embedded in us to. To not be isolated and alone.

[C]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

Can I ask you a specific question?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Hey, dog, no song.

[C]

Most I live half the day and then I spend the second half regretting but to double down. K Dog without a spoiler, There's a moment in Matnmora which I really think everybody needs to see these movies. But in Matmora without a spoiler, there's a big moment and it's a. It's a. It's. It's. It's wet. It's in a wet place and the camera doesn't catch it fully. It happens before it happens, and then the camera finds it. It's already happening. This is going to make people.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm okay with spoilers. I don't really believe in spoilers. Yeah, I'm okay with. We can talk about. Too worried about. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think, okay, there's a.

[C]

There's a kiss.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And the camera doesn't catch the kiss. Would you talk about that?

[B]

So they were never supposed to kiss in the script or in the plan.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And then we're like, at Niagara Falls. And even that was an evolution. Like, initially, Niagara Falls was just to kind of, like, prove that it was a road trip and that they were crossing the border. So we were initially. We're just going there and we'll, like, get them seeing the falls. And, like, we were worried it wouldn't photograph well or that we wouldn't be able to frame it and sort of get the falls in the background or that we wouldn't be able to get the right. Permit it. But then that went so easy that we're like, yeah, we should go. We should go down. Initially, we were thinking made of the Mist. And then we're like, no, there's these tunnels we can go into. And then when we got down there, we did a few takes. And initially just them, like, taking it in. And then it just seemed like, I think they're gonna kiss. We should talk about this. And we. Like, I brought them aside. I'm like, what's. What's going on? Like, it seems like you guys are gonna kiss. Like, we should talk about it before you do it. And, like, what does it mean? And the idea was always, like, if they do kiss, it would just be in a bubble. And there was something about being under the water and this separate reality, this romantic space. Because we'd already shot some of the later scenes, too. So it's like, how is this gonna cut? How is it gonna make sense? With some of these later scenes that we shot, if they had been intimate or had kissed. And so. Yeah. And then on top of that, just technically, like, it was wet. Like, luckily our DP had, like, a spinner, you know, to, like, get the water off the lens. And we were able to rig that up, and there were people trying to, like, we're like, you guys can be in the background. But it was, like, very hard to get that. But somehow we. I think we had three takes of it. So back to your question of, like, why is it half there? Partially because it was Such a chaotic shoot, and it's what we were able to get.

[C]

Yeah. But I think that's what makes it absolutely epic.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I really think it's like, when I saw that I'm not just buttering your bread. You're already here. You already said yes to the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So you can trust me when I say, like, it. It's. The camera is looking for the action. We all feel it. We're like. Something is in the air, in the sacred space, this, like, romance bubble. And then the camera comes back and they're already kissing.

[A]

It's like they escaped the observer for us.

[B]

Yeah. They ducked away a bit. Yeah. That's like, the real tension, too. Again, it's like it was loaded for us. Matt and Derek kissing. I mean, we. We. There was the premise that it was sort of, will they, won't they romantic. But again, just them kissing was an event. Like, it was tense or like, oh, have we gone too far? Was this, like. Is this gonna make the rest of the shoot weird? Like, what's actually going on? You mean just them as actors as well, too? And there was something else I was gonna say. I just lost my train of thought. I forget what you were saying, but I was like, oh, yeah, this too. But. Yeah, sorry.

[C]

Well, just to go one click back. I was saying what makes it epic is that the camera misses it. You were saying it's like, oh, right. Yeah.

[B]

They did not. They thought it was a lousy shot. Matt and Dara were like, is this, like, what. I was like, yeah. You guys are in front of the falls. It looks crazy. And, like, it doesn't look crazy. It looks pretty lame. Like, there's, like, what. We're supposed to be impressed by this. I'm like, guys, trust me. Through the lens, it looks like the water is landing on you. I just remember having to, like, encourage them that it was a good shot. And then when you watch it, it's, like, overwhelmingly cinematic compared to other stuff, where it's just, like, out of nowhere. Like a giant something so scenic. But, like, to them, they're like, this looks like crap like this. I just remember that. Wow. That the only thing really guiding it was, like, the actual, like, tension between the two of them. Not really the. The scenery. You mean.

[C]

Do you mean the actors? Was there a tension with the actors kissing? Is that what you mean with actual.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That was really the. Not. Not really the location. It was just that. That moment between the two of them and it's.

[C]

Were there other takes where you. Were you on Them before they kissed.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder. I wonder if. I think we might have them actually kissing on some takes and we might have gravitated to that because it just. It just felt right.

[C]

Yeah. No, you made the absence magic. It's literally the moment where, I don't know, it's. It's like good to great the whole movie and then it just. It elevates the whole piece to me. It sticks with you. I don't know. I just can't say enough about that choice, so. Well done.

[A]

So then did you have the piece, like, of the storyline where they get to the hotel and Matt's sort of assuming that they'll.

[B]

Yeah. Or I mean, her jealousy or her being jilted was more strange, you know, like, nothing's going on. Why is she taking it so personally?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If that makes sense. Like, it was never meant to be fully sexual or something like that. So it was more like without that happening, she's clearly, like, very upset. Why? What's underneath that and was. Was how it was on paper that I think. I think the entry point for this was always that it was meant to be more of an emotional affair than a sexual affair of like, that, like crossing a line emotionally, getting into, like, strange territory with conversations and at the same time not really sharing that with your significant other. Like, like doing all this stuff with Matt. And like, for me, I found that almost more interesting of like. Like going too far with certain conversations and not really like realizing that, like how you can slip into that and especially partnering that with creativity, like someone with writer's block or trying to like, challenge themselves. And it's like, maybe if I lean into this, that might. There might be something there.

[A]

Right. Because it is the sort of the same energy, like creativity and attraction or like vitality. Like it's. It can be.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's sort of all movies are about making movies thing going on there. Like, they're looking for it, you're looking for it. You're falling in love. They're falling in love. I don't know if that's what you're saying with that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's like. It's just the. Yeah. The life force energy or something that's behind.

[C]

You could say all of life is about attraction, repulsion, whatever. Let's not. I. I'm not going to go there. I am interested in, like, you made this movie and you had a deck and you got funding, but like modern movies and I fall into this trap. A lot. A lot of movies I come up with have some it's almost like eternal sunshine as my guiding star. And I'm like, there's always some, like, weird technology, and then it changes everything. And like that. Like that Nick Cage movie where about dreams. I'm not saying anything bad about these movies, right? I'm saying what you're doing so well is not a traditional story. You're not going, like, and then Matt Mara, they hit an old lady in their car. You know what I mean? It's like. And the trailer is like, would you call it in? I mean, she was almost dead. It's not like a morality tale. It's just one of my favorite things, is a simple story told well. Licorice pizza comes to mind as well. I don't know if you liked Licky Pete's, but we loved Licky Pete's.

[A]

Don't call it that.

[C]

I know. I'm hating everything I'm saying, but, like, would you talk about the challenges of getting a simple story greenlit? Like, you have to say, like, trust. Like, if you shot my morning brilliantly, you would have been on the edge of your seat. You know what I'm saying? But we don't trust filmmakers to do that. So we go, and Lila can read Pete. That's my daughter, can read Pete's mind. Like, we need something to happen, you know, like Adaptation. A best friend dies on the steps of a church. You're like, we want something to happen. We want people to learn lessons. You're going, and this is one of the reasons Val loves Matt Mara so much. No, Sexual tension is actually way more interesting than Iron Man. Not to say Iron Man's bad. I'm just saying, like, would you comment on that?

[B]

Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. Just broadly. Yeah. I remember thinking that way when I was younger, too. Or, like, when I'm a bit zoned out or deep thought. So, like, wow, real life is more mysterious than sci fi in some ways. Or, like, small things can be. I think that's in terms of what drives me of, like, these small moments that you could probably barely articulate to someone else can really shape your life or a part of your life. So the idea of this, you know, this part of Mara's life and this thing that she had with Matt, I always love it being kind of represented in that little receipt that she keeps and she puts it on the bookshelf. But if just like, that could be something you throw away or keep. You know what I mean? Like, that can be nothing to someone else, but to someone else, it's precious. Or it, like, really Almost like, ruined their life or something. And that always, to me, on a, like, personal, creative thing, always really charged a lot of things for me of just, like, how something so small can be, like, operatic or something. Or something so small. And then seeing that in my life or in other people's lives, and it just being, like a guiding principle to kind of want to. I mean, earlier we were talking about tone and, like, helping, you know, find those tones, find those sort of, like, the excitement in sort of small, everyday things. But in terms of getting it financed or more practically. Yeah. It's really just. The last film did well, and we were able to jump on that moment and be, like, the same two actors from that last film. And, you know, you can trust us, give us the financing. Matt's great at that, too. Like, that's how we got to make Nirvana, the band. The movie BlackBerry, you know. Yeah. Gave him. He'd been wanting to make that for years, and then suddenly he had his window and he's like, I can't really explain to you why this is a good idea and why if there's an audience for this film, but give me the money, because I just made BlackBerry.

[C]

Yeah. And I. Sorry, we're. I'm just. I think Matt is the coolest, and he told me that he went into the BlackBerry pitch and didn't even have it. I just. I find kinetic people like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

To be very, very interesting. Sorry, just a little Matt moment. Little Matt moment.

[B]

Here's again, like, making this project interesting for Matt, making this project interesting for Dara was really, like, the budget, in a way. Like, Matt had no reason to do this movie. You know, he only did it because something clicked. And I think part of it was, like, he knew how personal it was for me in some ways, and I think he found that intriguing. Like, that kind of loaded it. And then also Dara being brought into that. But that really, like, as much as it's, like, financial, like, funding, it's also just like, you know, they. Both of those actors sacrifice so much to do this movie. Like, so much of their personal time. So much, you know, weird scheduling. Matt was literally shooting BlackBerry and then on his. Any free time was doing, like, pickups or shots for this movie. So, like, it doesn't make sense in a lot of ways. It has to be, like, the perfect idiosyncratic thing that they're. That's also, like, the payoff for them, that they're getting a lot out of it creatively. That is kind of like recharging their other Projects or it's like a good palate cleanser. I don't know what it was for them.

[C]

No, it's kinetic. It's drinking from the right river. It's replenishing. Even hearing about it is replenishing for me. One of the things that I find so inspiring about you and Matt and Dara. I'm gonna live. I keep. Keep thinking it's Dara, and then I go, don't say Dara. Daredevil. Is it Daredevil?

[A]

Unwanted nicknames for everyone.

[C]

This is why I do it. So she's now D money. Okay, listen, I'm just saying this. This passion comes through and. And this kinetic again, this like people that. It's like if you were looking at us under a microscope, you guys are just these cells that keep moving towards this very interesting power source. And. And that's inspiring to me. I. You know, I. One of the reasons why you probably want to stay in Toronto, I live in la, I work in Hollywood, and a lot of it is chasing money, chasing ip, chasing what's going to work, reverse engineering what we think audiences want. I'm not saying that's all we do, but I'm saying it's really inspiring to think of you guys, especially in between other projects. Nights, weekends. What is nights, weekends? That's the janitor who's learning mathematics, you know, Sorry, good hunting. I just meant like a janitor who's learning English as a second language so he can propose to the woman that he's in love with. You know, like it's romantic, It's. It's fucking hot.

[B]

Yeah, but at the same time, it's not that unusual too. Like, I would, you know, when I rationalize, it'd be like you're on like a hockey team or a baseball team and you're like, practicing and then you have a few games, but it's like, worth it, you know, or you're in out drama production, you're rehearsing for months. Like other. Other art. There's other hobbies, artistic things that, you know, people do. It's worth investing in. But yeah, again, it really. For me, it's like, what is the experience of this going to be like, you know, we're going to spend so long, we're going to spend a year shooting this or a year editing this. And is this like, are these people I want to work with every day? Are these questions I've conversations I want to continually have, Even, like screening this film? Like, it's. I still really enjoy talking about or doing Q&As, because it's like a conversation I like having about weird sort of relationships. So that's what it is for me. And I assume that's what it is for Matt and Dara and other collaborators. And again for me, like, I don't make a living off of this film, but it in a way supports, you know, other things I do. Like I, I teach at a film school as my day job and then I make work like this. And it's sort of like a balance between the two.

[C]

What is the, what is the thing you have to, you find yourself repeating to your students the most? That's a leading question. I'm like, give us another film.

[B]

Yeah, it's really like all about perspective. It's all about like film. Like when you're in first year of film school, like a four year program, you might think you want to be a DP or a writer, but like, what's amazing about film school is like figuring out yourself and then other people like collaboration and like what you can add or almost like the thing I find myself repeating a lot is like bad collaborations are really good, especially at film school. It's like a safe place for this to happen and you can like, and it'll make you appreciate really good collaborations. Like, you have a terrible experience with your editor, then you'll really, when you find the right person, it'll, it'll work. And I feel like that's really unique for, for film school. Like having a fallout with your editor out, you know, when you're paying them or outside of like getting to know someone through that, it's like, it's tough. So for me it's, you know, when I think of, of the mantra or the thing I'm always telling my, my students is, yeah, like, like what, what, or if what was good about this film? Like, when did it like click for you? Like, where it felt like, you know, this, I want to be a DP or I want to shoot, you know, I want to direct. Because like, for instance, like, I thought I was going to be a cinematographer and it wasn't until like second year, like I was terrified of working with actors. I almost like leaned into that the most because it was like the elephant in the room. Like, no student knows how to write a good screenplay or find a good actor. Like, how do we address this? Everything else felt kind of linear. Like, okay, the cinematography will get better, we'll get better at sound design. But the elephant in the room is like, how do we actually, you know, find things worth Recording or performances or so. Yeah, perspective, you know, and even just like sharing work with other people and getting notes or even just that. What you described about like the movie theater, you know, like sitting with other people, like doing that with your own work. Even just having like one new person in the edit suite and just like, oh, okay, like this is what's working. This isn't what's worked. They're like, they're just. But yeah, again, perspective, I think, is the biggest thing.

[C]

One other body.

[B]

Yeah, it's a weird phenomena that like, suddenly the whole pacing feels different because you're just aware that someone is like having to interpret what you did.

[C]

It's the double slit experiment. There's another observer in the room. This is why AI will wipe out all us except one guy named Henry. Because they understand that without a human observer that they won't exist. I'm just kidding. But this is my pitch. We call it Henry that. Sorry. And one more before we let you go. Kazak, thank you so much for this. When it comes to like starting out, you want to direct a feature, you're directing features. I understand making shorts, getting a small amount of money together, a small amount of crew, a small amount of actors. Making that jump from that to features seems really impossible to me. What is the advice? We're over here.

[B]

Not, I mean, the very Canadian advice, or how almost every Canadian filmmaker I've seen have a bit of success is to make a series of short films. And then, you know, those shorts to play at TIFF or festivals. And then you really sort of. So before I made my first feature, I'd made five or six shorts. And it really, it felt like we had figured out this process. And then when we made Towers, like, what if we did this for, you know, an hour and a half, what would that feel like? And it was in a weird way, refreshed the short film process. And you know, like, we'd kind of grown tired of making these shorts. But now this leap to feature length was exciting. So even Matt, like, he made the web series Nirvana, the band, the Show. But like, there was this like period of. Really as much as it's like storytelling, it's also like a working method, you know, and it's like, can we do this for a feature length film? And I see a lot of young filmmakers stumble because they'll abandon like, again, like this idea of perspective of like, what made it work? Like, what was your lifeline on the production? Like, what things are non negotiable for your film to work. You Know, and often when you. When you go up a funding level, you know, you might get, you know, a bunch of, you know, vets or industry people working on your shoot, and they might not. They might overwhelm you or you. You might get overwhelmed. You know, you might get beaten down and be like, I'll just trust these guys. They've made a few features and you sort of lose that spark of, like, why somebody might want to hear your voice or see this. I mean, there's so many different types of productions, but, yeah, I think the biggest bit of advice for me personally was honing a method with shorts. I've worked with the same producer, same editor. I've only worked with two DPs, but again, it's like building this crew, this kind of like. But also, like this support system or, like, people I trust, you know, when I'm, like, beat down and tired. Like, their interest, their instincts kind of like realign mine, but it's like, yeah, building that safety net or that lifeline before you make your feature. Because, again, it's like a different type of exhaustion, it's a different scale, and it's like a million things could go wrong. But, yeah, and the other thing that was, like, a real instinct when I was younger, making short films, that there'd always be, like, short filmmakers that would, like, win the Palme d' or, like, top prize at Sundance, and then they'd go into this, like, big development deal with some, like, exciting studio, and It'd be like five or 10 years of development, and then by the time they made their first feature, no one cared, or maybe they didn't care. Like, they kind of lost something along the way and they kind of lost that spark of what was so cool about their short. So I always felt like I'd rather make three or four small, gritty features on my completely on my own terms than one big one that was being kind of developed by a bigger entity. But again, I think it's very specific to everyone. And I feel like the way I went about things is quite idiosyncratic and desperate. And I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to everyone, but I think what I would recommend is like, again, like, the word I keep saying, like, perspective of, like, what. What is working for you? And, like, what do you need? And what would. What. When you're. When your work is good, like, why is it good? And what do you need to make sure that that can happen or that.

[C]

You'Ll exactly like comedy. I always tell people, put yourself in the audience when Would you laugh?

[B]

Laugh?

[C]

It's such a brutal question. You just go, yeah. When would you laugh at that routine?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

[C]

Don't say it in a mean way, but yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the same thing. What do you like about your work?

[B]

And knowing.

[C]

It's like making good work is one thing, but I think the next level is knowing why it was good is really difficult.

[B]

Yeah. Or there's this thing for aspiring filmmakers where it always seems to be like, I want to do things professionally, I want to have a certain budget or I want to work with a certain camera or something. But that's like the norm of profession professionals. Like, no, nobody working in the industry is going to be excited that you're using like the standard tools. What they want to see is something new, you know, something, you know, that's why you want to see a new voice is like they're bringing something like some spark of energy. You don't want to see it just be sort of standard. But I feel like that's like a constant thing for younger filmmakers is they. There's like that self doubt and you just want to do it. The. There's like. What's the right word? Like you want to feel like you're a real filmmaker, like you're using, like you're a professional and you're not a. There's that big thing of like, I'm a phony or I'm never going to be a filmmaker or I shouldn't have wasted all this time in film school because it's so impossible to be a filmmaker that you're. That you grasp like budget or tools to make it feel like, no, this is, this is a real thing. But what people really want to see is like on screen, something real or something that feels unique or true.

[C]

That reminds me of in Story, which I already referenced from Adaptation, they talk about Story. He says, nobody, if you write a brilliant script and it's formatted wrong, nobody will give it. Have you ever read a Paul Thomas? And no one will give a. To finish that thought. Paul Thomas Anderson scripts are like, I.

[B]

Think, yeah, I think I've looked at There Will Be Blood.

[C]

Yeah, they're like written pretty. He's doing his own.

[A]

He's like making notes for him.

[B]

Yeah, it's like notes.

[C]

They look like notes, but they're brilliant. And it's like, like what, what I hear you saying is like, we get caught up in the quest for legitimacy, which is just another status, power, you know, money, sex, ego thing. And like, again, I Hear you saying, just like, can you please just try and make something good? But not even for it's the sake of the product being good, but the whole experience being good. Discovering what makes you good, meeting other people that are good and finding those correct collaborations is.

[B]

Yeah. It's even like, if this film is a total failure, like, what did I get out of the process? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, luckily, I don't think I've ever experienced that of it. Like, it was a failure. But. But I think I'm. When I start a project, I always think of, like, well, at least the experience of doing it will be good. Who knows? Film will necessarily end up. But, like, be. I'm at least, you know, probing or getting something out of my system by making it. I think. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That the journey.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

No, it's true, though. How old are you?

[B]

I just turned 40.

[C]

Okay. So I feel like you're ahead of schedule. So is Valerie, but it's like that is one of the keys to life is just going like it is just an ordinary day building a screen door, like in. In Scaffold. It is just this conversation. I think what we're realizing is like. Like, outcomes isn't the point. Like. Like, Alan Watts had this really interesting talk. Talk where he was like, your life is a symphony. And. And thinking the point is achieving something at the end is thinking the only important note is the last note of the symphony. He's like, that's absurd. So, like, getting those relationships. When I'm on a film set or doing anything collaborative, I'm like, this is it. This is our life. I'll say it out loud. This is our life. This is our life. This is our life. Not when the movie premieres years. Because what's worse than being at a movie premiere and realizing that was just your life too? Like, get good at recognizing how vital and precious all of it was, or you won't be able to enjoy the premiere or the success or the failure or whatever it is. Yeah, this is my TED Talk.

[B]

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I agree. Well, that.

[A]

That sounds like. Yeah. The. Just the process is. Is such a. A big part of it. So for.

[B]

For you.

[A]

And that's.

[C]

And finding the right people. I like what you said about film school is a good place to have an argument with your editor.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like a safe place. That's what we do at the playground. It's like Leela can have an altercation with a child over a swing. It's like, that's what this is. That's what. And I've made this point too. Theme parks. Disneyland is a safe place to experience peril and remain calm. It's just a dry run.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Well. And that. Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It just sounds like it's just setting up situations, like one situation after another. So, like, how do you set up the situation where you can succeed in making a film?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then when you're making the film, how do you set up the situation so that the actors can succeed?

[B]

Totally. Yeah, yeah. Like the playground analogy, like you're creating a sandbox or an arena or something to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. To experiment or for everyone to be able to tap into that. That creative place, each individual who's involved in it.

[C]

And I saw this. I. I want to share this with you before we go. Is there's this great YouTube channel called Game Makers Toolkit. It's about how they make video games. Like aaa big production video games.

[B]

Not only.

[C]

But anyway, he interviewed these guys that made some game and their mantra that they had taped to the wall was fail, Fail faster. Find the fun. So it was like, let's go. Let's figure out that walking down York street into this area doesn't work. But let's do it fast. Let's going. Let's keep fucking around. Because you don't know, like, have some humility to say, I don't know what'll work. Let's see if it's down this street. Literally, let's see if it's totally. But like, don't have a 45 minute bureaucratic conversation about the logistics. Fail fast and fail a lot. And when you're failing, you know you're on the right path to the. To the thing that might work.

[B]

Yeah, no, I think, yeah. A lot of filmmaking is that of just doing it and then adapting or doing it and steering it in the right way. But yeah, there's like a pragmatism to it of just like, let's do it, see if it works. Let's build on what's working. Let's. Let's throw out what's not working.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it'll be that way with Matt and Dara where I was like, I thought the scene was really good. They think it sucks. Okay, let's go in the direction. Or it'll be a tiny scene, but it'll like explode or blossom. For Dara, I'll be like, okay, let's explore this a bit more. But it's like figuring that out quickly from them. Like, are they into it. Okay. Let's nurture it. Oh, they're not. Let's find them something they're interested in. Let's pivot.

[A]

Wow. It's improv.

[C]

It's alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's recognizing. It's just like a good conversation. I don't. I'm not trying to be crass, but, like, good sex. It's like hyper attunement. Like, we want to be attuned, we want to be seen, and we want to see both at the same time.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I love this chat so much.

[A]

We could go on forever.

[C]

We could go on forever. But in the intro, we'll give a big shout out to the movie. Maybe if there's a scene that you think would play audio. Sure. Play a scene up top. Just to give people a taste of what we're talking about.

[B]

I wonder what it would be. Yeah. I would say there's two scenes. Maybe the coffee shop scene, maybe just before the blow up, where they're talking about. I think Matt says something like. I forget exactly what he says. Something about being present or stupid or thinking that, like, other people can. So there might be something in the coffee shop of that. First they're talking about reading each other's writing. Or it's not polite to ask what the other person's writing could be good. Or you could. If you want to go for something bigger, go for the car argument. A part of the argument in the car could be good too. Kind of articulating what Matt does.

[C]

That was it.

[B]

Pull it away. And then you do this. Yeah. One of those two could work.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

The secret selfishness of the manic genius.

[B]

Genius is.

[C]

Is always interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Kevin Klein and Sophie's Choice and. And me every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, man, that. That scene. The way she articulates and calls him out is so satisfying.

[C]

And then you look slowly over at me. Very dare you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But she. Val likes it. I have to say, on the record. You like.

[B]

Oh, there's the subway scene, too. That's where I think Dara does it really well because Matt's almost doing, like. Like this stick about her short husband.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

On the subway. And it was like in my head, I'm like, this is too much. Like, he's doing a bit. But then Dara is so great at, like, psychoanalyzing him as he's doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what you always do. Like, you've got this thing.

[A]

Yeah. You always put down handsome men. Yeah.

[C]

But it's so funny. That's why that Scene is so brilliant. Is it wouldn't work if it wasn't funny. Like, that bit is like 10 out of 10 funny. He's like, yeah, so good. I believe that's the trailer. If you watch the trailer.

[B]

Yeah, I think we had that as, like, our early teaser when we had our first, like, when we were premiering at the Berlin Film Festival. I think that was our first clip.

[C]

Well, I got a quick buy from this guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, everybody, stop being stupid. Canadian film is film. Just watch it. Stop watching Love is blind. Stop whittling away your life, life and watch something good for sake. We never get to be cool. I feel like we know something cool and it's Kazak and I'm not even gonna. It's like there's a rose sound in his last name. Oh, Vine. There's a Vine.

[B]

Yeah, it's a W. But thank you.

[A]

So much, so much. So glad you took the time with us.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you, guys. This is great. This is really nice chat with you.

[C]

All of this too much talking is just because we're just such huge fans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're very excited to get to talk to you. Thank you.

[C]

And we'd love to stay in touch and. And we're in Toronto a bunch, so maybe we'll get to meet you in real life. Excited for what's next? Would you say keep it crispy? It's how we end the guest.

[B]

Keep it crispy. Yeah.

[A]

I love that you needed so much information.

[C]

Nothing.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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