480 People Pleasers and the Shame They Hide (with Maggie Nick)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Your Anxiety Toolkit – Episode 480

Title: People Pleasers and the Shame They Hide (with Maggie Nick)
Host: Kimberley Quinlan, LMFT
Guest: Maggie Nick, Author of “Good Kids: Why You Suffered In Silence and How to Break the Cycle”
Date: April 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally rich and insightful conversation, Kimberley Quinlan welcomes therapist and author Maggie Nick to explore the hidden shame carried by "good kids" and lifelong people pleasers. Drawing on Maggie's research and personal experience detailed in her new book, the episode delves into why those deemed "the nicest" by family and society often feel most burdened by shame, hyper-responsibility, and a sense of never being "enough." Listeners are guided through the roots of these patterns—often originating in subtle, relational childhood traumas—and are offered practical, compassionate ways to break cycles of shame both with ourselves and in parenting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Are the “Good Kids” and Why Do They Suffer?

• Good kids are characterized as responsible, mature, non-troublemakers—children who essentially parent themselves.
• Maggie Nick:

  “Good kids move quickly into submission and apologize anytime things feel tense…being in trouble, someone being mad or upset or disappointed, feels like a life or death emergency.” (04:52)

• There’s a crucial distinction between genuine kindness and compulsive niceness: good kids often shape-shift to stay safe and avoid disapproval, disconnecting from their authentic selves in the process.

2. Relational Trauma: Not All Trauma is Loud or Obvious

• Many people don't identify “big” traumas in their past, yet carry lasting emotional scars.
• Maggie:

  “Things I thought were my personality turned out to be trauma responses.” (07:22)

• Relational trauma is the result of repeated subtle interactions—being ignored, corrected, or shamed, not necessarily dramatic events.
• Maggie:

  “The deepest layer of relational trauma is shame… Shame kind of sneaks itself way to the bottom.” (09:04)

3. Shame-Based Parenting and Its Consequences

• Common disciplinary phrases like “I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed” or “You should be so ashamed of yourself” can leave deep emotional imprints.
• Societal shifts away from physical discipline often led to increases in shaming language; though perhaps less overtly damaging, these approaches still harm.
• Maggie:

  “There is a fallout when we make kids feel like we only love them when they're well-behaved.” (13:12)

4. Breaking the Cycle: Repair, Not Perfection

• The most essential gift to a child (or our own inner child) is assurance of love and belonging, even when they make mistakes.
• Maggie (on parenting her own son):

  “I don't stand by what you did, but I will always stand by you.” (17:00)

• Parenting (and re-parenting ourselves) is not about never messing up, but about learning to model rupture and repair.

5. Shame, Guilt, and the Inner Critic

• Shame is the most powerful dysregulator of the nervous system—perceived disappointment is felt as a survival threat.
• Maggie:

  “My inner critic… told me I shouldn’t be so tired. Based on what, exactly?... When you really think about it, the fact that I’m tired today actually makes perfect sense.” (26:34)

• Children internalize unreasonable standards, leading to lifelong self-criticism and hyper-responsibility.

6. The Cultural Reinforcement of People Pleasing

• Society heavily praises compliant, kind, high-achieving children, reinforcing the internalization of impossible standards.
• Even without explicit shaming, the presence of implicit expectations (modeled by siblings or parents) shapes self-worth.

7. How to Begin Healing Shame

• Repair requires both internal and relational work—IFS/parts work can help.
• Deep healing often comes when someone else (therapist, friend, etc.) loves us unconditionally, showing us those “unlovable” parts are worthy.
• Maggie (sharing a friend’s words):

  “What else do you believe I wouldn't love you through? Tell me so I can show you that I will.” (47:35)

• Self-inquiry: Track the specific stories and standards of the inner critic; begin to question their origins and utility.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Submissiveness of “Good Kids”:

  “Being in trouble… or someone… disappointed in us feels like a life or death emergency.” – Maggie Nick (04:52)

• On the Root of Shame:

  “Shame is like poison… it’s embedded, it’s the air we breathed.” – Maggie Nick (10:57)

• On Parenting and Repair:

  “I don’t stand by what you did, but I will always stand by you.” – Maggie Nick (17:00)

• On the Nervous System and Inner Critic:

  “Shame experienced in the body is a threat to our survival…our body literally thinks a bear attack is imminent at any moment.” – Maggie Nick (23:14)

• On Parenting Perfectionism:

  “On our hardest days, we’re still breaking so many cycles from our childhood… I’m so tired of parenting experts holding themselves like they don’t mess up all the time.” – Maggie Nick (32:59)

• On Self-Compassion and the Healing Journey:

  “You can love other people really hard, but you can’t fully love yourself until you’ve been fully loved by someone else.” – Maggie Nick (46:11) “We’ve gotta recognize all of our protector parts that are just working so hard to try to keep us safe and make sure nobody ever finds out that we’re actually not perfect.” (48:26)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:30: Introduction to Maggie Nick and “good kids”
• 05:00: Why do “the nicest” people carry so much shame?
• 07:22: Subtle trauma vs. “big T” trauma in childhood
• 09:00: Exploring the depth of relational shame
• 13:12: How shaming language became the norm in discipline
• 16:50: Example of parental repair after a child’s mistake
• 20:07: How shame runs in the background of our lives
• 23:14: The nervous system’s response to shame
• 26:34: Real life moments challenging the inner critic
• 32:59: The myth of perfect parenting and generational cycles
• 35:41: Why saying “no” triggers shame for people pleasers
• 38:43: The impact of unspoken family expectations
• 41:03: Early childhood, temperament, and implicit expectations
• 45:41: Developing a kinder inner voice and the necessity of being loved unconditionally
• 47:35: Transformational friendship/therapy moments in healing shame

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Actionable Takeaways

• For Parents: Focus on repair, not perfection. Assure children of your unchanging love even when setting consequences or boundaries.
• For People Pleasers: Notice where your standards and self-criticisms originated. Seek out relationships where your most vulnerable self can be safely revealed and still loved.
• For Everyone: Recognize the impact of subtle, relational forms of trauma and question the “code” your inner critic operates by. Self-compassion and curiosity are key to healing.

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Learn More

• Maggie Nick: maggienick.com
• Membership: Camp Lovable (“Good Girl Rehab”)
• Socials: Maggie with Perspectacles
• Book: Good Kids: Why You Suffered In Silence and How to Break the Cycle

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a powerful lens on how “goodness” and people-pleasing, especially when rooted in childhood survival strategies, can mask deep wells of shame. Through concrete examples and heartfelt storytelling, Kimberley and Maggie illuminate the way forward: not in striving for perfection, but in embracing compassionate, honest repair—within our relationships and within ourselves.

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A beautiful life is possible! For more resources, visit CBT School.

Transcript

[A]

Hello my loves. It has been a while since I've sat down and recorded a more traditional chat audio with you. I've been doing my best here on the podcast to just dive into the information, dive in, give you as much high quality evidence based skills as I can. But I've really missed just checking in on you and saying, how are you doing? What's going on? Is there any tension you're holding in your body? Is. Are you being kind to yourself? I hope so. I just wanted to check in. There has been so much happening over here over at CBT School and in my private practice. We now, as many of you may know, we have a YouTube channel which I am really putting so much, so much time and effort into. As well as the podcast, I have recently launched a new course which you may also have known about called the Rumination Reset. This is a course that will help you to stop ruminating. It is all science based. It is me teaching you the exact skills that I teach my client. This is a smaller course. It's just a focused solution for a specific problem. If you struggle with rumination, if you struggle with overthinking and catastrophizing and mental compulsions, please do go over to cptschool.com or you can click the link in the show notes and sign up for the Rumination Reset. It is my new favorite little baby course. In addition to that, I just wanted to let you know that we are pushing ahead with the content here, in fact, where I am really considering doubling down and doubling the content I put out and really pushing to make sure you get access to actual skills that actually help. The more I'm on social media, the more I see absolute craziness and horrible advice and very concerning like quick fixes. And I am on a mission to help you suffer less, not suffer more with those types of skills and full tea strategies. So that being said, let's get over to the show. I hope you're doing well. I am sending you every single ounce of my love and I'll talk to you soon. Have you ever noticed that the people who care most about doing the right thing are often the ones who carry the most shame? The people who try the hardest to be kind and responsible and helpful and thoughtful are often the same, same exact people who lay awake at night replaying their conversations. They're worried all the time that they've disappointed someone and they just feel like they're constantly doing something wrong. They're the ones who we would call the good kid.

[B]

They're Easy.

[A]

They're responsible, they're mature, the ones who didn't cause any trouble. What if always trying to be the good kid meant learning to hide your needs, silence your feelings, and carrying shame that was never yours to carry? Today we are talking about why the nicest people often carry the most shame. We have a guest. Her name is Maggie Nick, and she is the author of Good Kids, why you suffered in silence and how to break the cycle. I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you for being here, Maggie.

[B]

Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you and actually finally get to meet girls. I know following each other online now.

[A]

I follow you and have followed you for years. I feel a deep connection to this because I was a good kid. I was always told you were, like, such a breeze. Like, I never had to worry about Kimberly. Like, she was happy, she was responsible. She didn't seem to care about things so much. I know it was me, but what was so interesting is it wasn't until my adult life when my mental health, like, took a crash and then I had to unpack all that. So that had this book was like. Your work has been a light bulb for me. So thank you. I want to get straight into some questions with you is why do the nicest people, quote, unquote, the nicest people, why do they often carry the most shame? Because when I pulled my community, everyone raised their hand and were like, let's talk about shame. Like, why are those who are so nice and so caring always hardest on themselves?

[B]

Just to put it. Like, just to cut straight through everything. So good kids are exactly like you described. The ones that are so easy to parent. We basically parent ourselves.

[A]

Right?

[B]

We don't even need to be parented. I think if I had to, like, jump right to the, like, draw the straight line. It's that good kids move quickly into submission and apologize anytime things feel tense or uncertain. It's more niceness and politeness than it is kindness. Not that we're not kind people, but, like, being in trouble. Just the possibility of being in trouble, or someone being mad at us or upset with us or disappointed in us feels like a life or death emergency. And so I think what you're clocking is a set of relational trauma responses that are relational shame trauma. They're driven from the shame of, like, what if I show up as a difficult person, if I'm not impressive, if I am, you know, if they see the real me, who I've been made to feel is, you know, hard to love. Unacceptable, a burden, a disappointment. You know, I can't let them see the real me. And so I've just got to make sure nobody ever finds out who I really am. And so I've got to keep shape shifting until, like, whatever this person will see as good and acceptable to stay safe, it's exacting. Yeah.

[A]

So as I was reading your book, you. And everyone can see here, like, I've, like, ratted it up. Like, it's. It's been highlighted. I've got all my notes in here, so it's like a little mini journal going.

[B]

Can't even tell you what it feels like to see that. Like, for that, your book. I do that with books. And, like, I'm still. I'll never get over.

[A]

It's the only way I can function when I have books. It's how I love. I, like, I feel like I become one with them. And I was sitting down, my. Actually, I was watching my son. He was at skateboarding lesson, and I was sitting on a blanket and I was reading it, and I had this, like, visceral feeling to you say, like, relational trauma? Because I was like, I don't remember a big fat trauma happening. Like, I don't. And I know you talk about this in the book as well as, like, I always thought something just must have happened in my brain when I turned 18 to cause all of those emotions to come and that it wasn't from my childhood. I almost felt a sense of, like, protection of my parents, of, like, oh, no, they did. They did the best they could and they tried. And. And so I just wanted to bring that up because I could notice and observe myself, like, working through that. And you kept addressing that in the book. But I sort of. I wonder first, like, what's your feedback to me on that?

[B]

Well, it's funny because I did a video series a couple years ago. I don't know if you remember it, but it was called things that I thought were my personality that turned out to actually be trauma responses. And it's been fascinating. I don't know if this has been your experience, but with, like, I would call you a thought leader in your, you know, expertise. Like, you are someone who does seem to kind of have a grasp on, like, the cutting edge of stuff. I don't feel like your stuff feels a little bit different, like a little edgier or like you're calling a deeper layer out than most people on anxiety and ocd. It's just my assessment or like, part of the reason I think that I'm drawn to your work, and I think as a thought leader myself. Right. Like, nobody's really called it good kid. Like, nobody's really done this before. And it's been fascinating to clock all the people in our field who are so quick to come into my comments and try to call bullshit. It happened on. On a video about. I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed in the comments. And I think maybe they said it to their kids and they're feeling attacked when I'm like, oh, we gotta stop saying this. And they're standing 10 toes down and support. The kids need to hear that, and it's important. And they're like, I'm a psychologist. Like, they're identifying in the comments as a clinician and then standing toes down behind shameless discipline. And I'm like, okay. And when I did that video series about things that I thought were my personality that were actually trauma responses, again, whole wave of clinicians, like, not everything's a trauma response. And, like, you're right. Not everything is a trauma response. But, like, how do I say this nicely? Like, tell me you don't know what relational trauma is without telling me you don't know real relational trauma. Right. I'm not trying to, like, call anybody out publicly, but, like, if you're gonna come in my comments and try to go call bullshit on my work, like, perhaps you should explore the literature first, you know, as relationship trauma is trauma that happens inside our relationships, and it doesn't feel like trauma. Right. And there are a lot of people in our field who don't even know what relational trauma is. Right. Like, examples tell us a lot. Relational. Like the. The deepest layer of relational trauma trauma that happens inside our relationships is the shame layer. Shame's always the deepest layer. We can peel back the fear and the. And shame is always going to be at the very deepest layer. That's just kind of how it works. It kind of sneaks itself way to the bottom. Yeah, it does. It is hard to access until we've done a certain amount of work to kind of stabilize inside. Right. I think our body kind of buries it deep until we're stable enough and able to kind of regulate through the shame without hurting ourselves or hurting other people with it. Right. Shame is like poison. It's like we're, you know, pulling poison out of our body and we poison ourselves and other people with it until we've kind of like, that's a weird analogy, but you know what I'm saying. So. Yep. The people that I'VE seen talk about it. Talk about relational shame trauma as being, you know, ignored, criticized, corrected. It is all of those things. But to me, again, the deepest layer is being seen being unseen as good inside, basically, as a good person at your core. And also at the same time being seen in a bad way. Right. We had these moments where, you know, we made a mistake. God forbid a good kid makes a mistake, has a non perfect moment. Right. God forbid. Because we really good kids tend to be held to much higher standards.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like teachers hold them to higher standards.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like we depend on those kids. I'm a mom. I have a kid. Who would be the good kid. I get it. When that kid is locked in and, well, behaving it makes my job easier. Like, I get it. But, like, when a child, good kid or otherwise makes a mistake, you know, and our parent came in with this, like, what is wrong with you? I expected more from you. I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. You should be so ashamed of yourself. You should know better. You're being so dramatic. Why can't you just get it together? Like, it's shameless discipline. And it's okay if we've said these things to our kids. Like, it's okay. Of course you have to. Like, that's health. Generational trauma. Yeah. And like, the thing about shame is it's embedded. Like, we even clock it for a while. Like, it's. It's the air we breathed. Right. It's not just our modeling and the way our brains built this whole blueprint about how to be a good parent. Right. By good kids. Like, our brains built this whole, like, archetype around how the kind of parent we would need to be one day to raise successful kids. Yeah. And then we were rewarded for being the one who never needed them. The one who was always impressive, the one who never let them down. The one they could count on. Right. The one who's always helpful without being asked. The one who's always mature, the one who's always responsible. That all I'd have in class. Like, we were rewarded. And then when we didn't meet those expectations, which, by the way, were insane. Yeah. And unattainable. We were met with. I'm not mad. I'm disappointed. I expected more from you. And what happens when we do that, when our parents did that to us, and what will happen if we don't break the cycle with our kids is kids don't just learn. Don't do that. They learn there's something wrong with the version of me that does that. Yes. It's the energy of, like, that is who you really are. You really are somebody I can't trust. Right. When you lie, it's like, oh, I've seen a side of you that I better never see again. You know, I better never see that side of you again. That side of you is acceptable. And I do, like, have a lot of grace for our parents. I don't think this could have gone another way. Like, there weren't resources, there weren't, you know, all of us showing up, you know, with access to technology to share in ideas. Like, it just. I don't think it could have gone another way. I have a lot of grace for our parents. When I was writing the book, I did a lot of research on, like, how this happened and what you find, this has been handed down. You know, I think we were children. There was a move in the field, in the parenting psychology field to try to. There was a recognition finally that, like, hitting children is harmful. And so I think there was. There were efforts, right, to move away from that. And that's really where we see shame kind of take like, clamp down. Right. Our parents generation were told, don't hit them. Like, get in your car and leave. So you told them. Yeah. Or don't hit them. Say, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. Yeah. Which it does work in, like, right? Like, it does work in extinguishing misbehavior. It does kids good. But there is a cost. And that's what I'm trying to do with this book. Like, yeah, there is a fallout when we make kids feel like we only love them when they're well behaved. And I know parents like, what are you talking about? But, like, I had this day, I had this moment the other day with my son. And parenting has just me up but, like, great ways.

[A]

It's been literally breaks my heart every single day. I say that all the time.

[B]

Oh, man, I expected it to be this, like, beautiful, like, oh, I'm giving my kid when I didn't have. I just feel slapped, like, over and over again. And then it's like. But then I'm like, slapped with joy when I have, like, moment where I, like, apologize. I'm like, yeah, I was able to give them what it's just. It's right. But I told my son the other day, I was like, I can't believe I get. I'm lucky enough that I get to be the one who's your mom. And like, so many times Parents will be like, in. In counseling, they'll be like, my kid tells me they feel like I don't love them, but I tell them I love them all the time. And then they're like, are they being dramatic? Is this attention seeking? And, like, here's what I would say to that. The real issue and the thing that we have to fucking stop doing is in the good moments, when they're well behaved and meeting your expectations, it's. I'm so lucky that I get to be your mom when they mess up. We're like, you're lucky I even love you right now. Yeah, it's that. It's the revoking our love, our willingness to care. It's. It's. It's like, I love you when you're like that. I don't. I'm annoyed. Can't stand you. Sending you away. Right? Like, revoking that kids are loved and then they're not loved, and then they're loved again and then they're not loved. Like, that's the thing. If I could, like, put my finger on one thing, it's that we have to learn. And we've never seen this done. I've never seen another. Like, I built this because I didn't see this anywhere. And I like my way through the darkest forest of trying to figure this out. But, like, what we need to do. Remember when you would mess up as a kid and you'd have that feeling, your parents would look at you with that face that said, like, I'm disappointed. I'm. You know, you're. You're a disappointment, whatever. And we had fallen out of their favor. And then. Can you just imagine for a moment, if they come back around, which they didn't, they would just ignore us until they were over it. And then we all pretended like nothing happened. But just for a moment, just for funsies, let's just imagine that they came back and they said, I know that that's not who you really are. I know you. I know who you really are. And I know that this mistake is not representative of who you really are deep down. So you're gonna have to make this right. You're gonna have to show up for the impact of your actions, and you're gonna have to face the consequences of your actions. I'm not gonna shield you from them, but you and I are good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love you. I walk beside you. That's the thing that changes everything for kids. That's what I've seen over and over and over again in counseling and coaching and with people who follow my framework, it's like, that's have to shift. And in the book, I have five adjustments, and that is number four. Stand by them. That we've got to say. I don't stand by what you did, but I will always stand by you. My son lied last year and I. I got like, full body goosebumps and like, welled up because I said that. Like, it just. I don't know. That day I was emotional, but I was like, I don't stand by, you know, lying. I don't stand by telling people something to, you know, look better or to whatever. I don't stand by that. But I will always stand by you.

[A]

Yeah, there's so much I need to unpack here. Okay, so. So folks who are listening, let me just. I'm just doing a little internal check. Like, I feel pretty terrible right now. No, no, no, it's not bad. It's not bad. I think it's all just coming up inside me. Like, you know, there's so much about this of, like, how it felt to be a kid, also how it feels to be the mom who's made mistakes. The empathy for your parents who didn't probably had it done to them. Like, it's just a lot. So, like, I. If you feel hear me tearing up a little, that might be why. And I'm actually here for it. As I was reading this, I was like, this is the perfect time. Like, if you had have given me this. My kids are 14 and 10, 11. If you hadn't given this to me five years ago, I mightn't have finished it. It might have been a little too activating for me. And I was really excited that I. It's not that what you wrote was activating. It's just that it. I'm this kid, right? This is me. And so it was so powerful. What's so interesting is how you just talked to your son and gave us that demonstration is how I teach people to talk to themselves when they screw up and they lied and they have to, like, work through it as an adult. And. And I know that's a big part of what you do as well is we're like, reparenting ourselves and we're parenting our children, and it's just. It's all over the place. I know I'm going all over the place, but I want to read something to everybody, if it's okay with you. This is from the chapter on shame. It says you might not think you know much about shame, but it's running in the background of your life every single day. Whether you realize it or not. The guilt you feel for resting is laced with shame. Oh, gives me the goosebumps. You got me. You got me on this one. The belief that you quote unquote shouldn't be tired or don't deserve rest. The panic you feel over disappointing someone is laced with shame. Shame profoundly impacts how you show up in the world and how much space you you believe you're allowed to take up. I mean again, like this is like my eating disorder described perfectly, right? It shapes how you see yourself and what you expect from others. It tells you what you deserve and demands you shape shift into the most lovable version of yourself to be safe.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like that's shame's best definition right there. So thank you for writing that.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

So good.

[B]

I cried a lot writing this book.

[A]

Oh, I can imagine.

[B]

Like ow, that hurt coming out.

[A]

I know, but it's healing in and of itself. Like when I wrote my self compassion book, there was such healing that came from just putting the words on the page and being like, oh, something just shifted in me. How does you know you in the book good kids, you talk about this identity of being the good one. How does growing up has this like respect responsible? So many people with anxiety have hyper responsibility or this easy child. How does it set them up to carry shame in their later life?

[B]

Well, I think it's important to notice. I mean, where to start? We could talk for 12 hours on this but like it's important to notice the nervous system piece here.

[A]

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[B]

I love the way I think in order to heal shame, we have to understand parts work. You know, I love ifs internal family systems parts work. And we've got to understand the nervous system piece because again, if we don't understand those unconscious level pieces, then we're just kind of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Like, we're not. We're not actually doing anything deep. And that's where I'm sure you have clients, too, that come to me, and they've done years of therapy and feel like nothing is actually helping. That's because we really do have to get to an unconscious level to work on change, and you have to work with someone who is licensed and trained to do that. Shame is the most instant and profound dysregulator of our nervous system. Shame experienced in the body is a threat to our survival. So, you know, that's why we do experience the thought of someone being disappointed in us as if our actual life is in danger.

[A]

I believe it.

[B]

We. So it's, you know, never feeling like you can relax or let your guard down because your body is, like, in survival. I mean, our body literally thinks is. Is experiencing life as if a bear attack is imminent at any moment. Like, that's how it experiences the thought of someone being disappointed in you. Right. Good. Kids are so freaking hard on themselves. I was. I had two therapists tell me I was the most viciously critical person they'd ever met. Yeah.

[A]

You wrote that in your book. That.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's a. That's a good award to win, that one.

[B]

I mean, I was, though, and I, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Talked it at some point along the way. I'm like, wow. Like, I am so kind, so encouraging. Like, probably the most encouraging person you've ever met who is, like, gentle, and I love all of you, and you're safe with me. And then just the one day, the contrast of that just slapped me upside the face. Like, whoa. I couldn't enjoy a win because it wasn't a win. It was always a failure. Right. I could have done something better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I should have done something better. Right. And just the punishing. I mean, I think one of the most satisfying parts of the book to write was the misguided beliefs that our parents had. Because what I've run into with trying to, like, the. I'M not mad. I'm disappointed. Video going viral on TikTok and all of the clinicians coming for me in the comments was fascinating. I think there are a lot of parents that's an ex and experts in our field that stand 10 toes down or did at least a couple years ago. Hopefully not. Hopefully we're chipping away at that. But, like, that's like, worst case scenario for me. And then, like, the. Maybe the best case scenario are people are like, okay, I hear you. It's damaging. You're right. It was really hard to hear that as a kid myself. But, like, what about when I am disappointed in my kid? What. What then? Right? And I remember writing that part of the book. I'm like, okay, so we've got the disappointment. And what informs the disappointment are expectations. Right? If a child. Like, when you're disappointed in someone, it's because you expected them to do one thing and they didn't. You know, I expected more from you. I'm like, interesting. Okay. And expectations for children come from beliefs about children. Yeah. Right. And what's realistic? What is. Okay. What is healthy to expect of them? Like, the way my therapist has schooled me through motherhood on like, oh, we're expecting a little bit too much again. Oh, she's only six. We can't. Nope. Mayday, Mayday. Like, right. Adjust expectations. That's another one of the five adjustments is check your expectations. Right. And I've had to, like, learn a whole new language about what is actually realistic to expect of children because I was expected to be this mini adult, regulate the grownups around me. Like, somehow I talk about the caterpillar and the butterfly. Like, I was caterpillar made to believe I should be a butterfly. And I did my freaking best. But, like, I'm still not a butterfly. Right. And so I've had to, like, when we think about that, when we think about, you are expecting things of yourself that are actually objectively impossible. And there was this moment. I was sitting in a Publix parking lot a couple years ago. It was. Do you ever have these moments where you're like, just remember the whole thing? I don't know. It was. My inner critic was being real vicious with me. And I was like, I'm all fucking done with this. Like, it was so clear to me in that moment is like, my inner critic is being vicious. And they're like, you shouldn't be so tired. Like, you shouldn't be so exhausted. And I'm like, based on what exactly? Like, from self. From my Highest self. I'm like, okay, inner critic, Go ahead and tell me. Like, based on what? Where'd you come up with that? Because you're holding me to the standard that feels pretty damn arbitrary. And it doesn't feel like it's taking into account the fact that I've had a sick kid. I haven't slept well for two nights. Both kids are in a developmental leap. I've had a really hard week at work. I barely eaten today. Like, I actually feel like when I. When you really think about it, the fact that I'm tired today actually makes perfect sense. So tell me more about how I shouldn't be so tired. Right. Like, it's just like what emerged. What, like, rose up inside was like, this is what my best looks like right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my best right now is good enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like. Like a flames rose out of me. Like, just like I'm done beating myself up and holding myself to this random standard that's not even based in reality. I don't know who made it up, but it doesn't actually even take into account what's going on in my life. Right. But that's what our parents did with us. It was like, no matter what. Excellence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And being fine and being well behaved and being able to control yourself and. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I. I'm. There's so much to bring into this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

For me personally, it was. I. I mean, I've always had some criticism, but I think it was just less about the criticism and about the genuine terror that I would disappoint. Point. My parents, who I am obsessed with and that I think we talk about these. Like, there was many good things about that in that it forced me to be proactive and a hard worker and all these, like, we get positive reinforcement by all of culture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I remember at like 24 maybe, I was like, I've built this, all this stuff, and I still don't feel secure at all. Like, I. It's like I feel like I'm at the top of the mountain. Yay. But now what if I fall down from the mountain? It was just terror. It was as terrifying as anything. So I don't know.

[B]

I just.

[A]

There's so much fear. I feel like the fear and the shame just kept teeter tottering back and forth of like, when am I going to lose everything and my life falls apart and all. And like you said, the shame piece of, like, everyone will just abandon me.

[B]

I remember Renee Brown talking about a study. Again, I don't remember anything. I have like raging memory issues. I mean just lots of dissociation. But it's like really something when I can remember something well and I can remember where I was. I was in the CBS parking lot on this one right across from the Publix. I'll be around the same time. And I heard Bernay Brown talking about this study on shame prone self talk versus guilt prone self talk. There have been a couple, but there, there are these studies. One in particular I'm thinking about, that was a longitudinal study and they went in at fifth grade and they determined where kids fel on the spectrum of shame prone. I'm bad when they did something wrong to I did something bad, which is guilt prone. Right. And they came back in, in 12th grade and like reassessed. And the only way that you saw the shame prone kids who do something, you know, make a mistake and go right to I'm bad, move over to guilt prone, was a parenting intervention, not therapy. A parenting intervention. And the shame at 12th grade, the shame prone kids, forgive me, I don't remember the exact statistic. The number in my mind is like 400% more likely to experience poor outcomes like substance use and abuse, eating disorders, anxiety, depression, self harm, reckless sexual behavior. Just like a risky sexual behavior, reckless behavior as a child. The guilt prone kids who could make a mistake and say I did something bad, there was an inverse correlation with those. And the study concluded that the biggest determining factor of whether kids fall shame prone or guilt prone is parenting style. And like the way that stopped me in my damn tracks. I really think I'm here today because of that study and just here like the way that she just connected the dots right to parenting. I just remember being like, oh my God, that's it. Like it's, we can have parents who love us so much and like really do want us to feel happy and good about ourselves. Right. But the only tools they've been given are ones that they've known that were used on them and the ones that they've known. Yeah. And so if their parents came in with that energy and they haven't healed it, they're going to be those people who I've had in my office over the years who argue with me that I needed to be told, I'm not mad, I'm disabled, disappointed. It made me better. I do go through them one by one in the book because I'm like, I would like to reality check these gently for all of you. Yeah. Like I did it. I get why we, we intellectualize it. We try to Think, no, no, I needed that. That made me better. But, like, I don't know. I think there is a different way. And I just think our parents didn't know. Like, they really didn't. And how could it. Who, what, what other way could this have gone? Nobody's ever taught this.

[A]

And I say that to my kids all the time. This is the first time I've ever done this before. I'm sorry. You've got me at my novice. Like, but I think what happens. And I actually, again, like, as I read this, I was A couple of moments, like, there are a couple of things I've done that I, you know, wish I could take back. You know, things I've said early in my kids life, they weren't even that bad. But it's just I. I could have handled it better. But I, I do remember in that moment this, like, firm, like, no, this is how we raise strong children. And then I had to be like, there was. There's a Curie as a parent, because I notice, like, we have shame so much as parents that we're not doing it right. There's so much pressure is. There has to be so much curiosity instead of judgment for our parenting because it's hard. And I think that for being a human in and of itself, like, we're all just sort of screwing up and it's scary and hard all the time.

[B]

Well, and this is about being a perfect parent. A, it's impossible. And B, like, on our hardest days, we're still breaking so many cycles from our childhood. Like, so many. Like, on my worst parenting days, I can still be, like, objectively did so many things. Well, today had a couple of rough moments and I think we've got to call bullshit on this idea that, like, we should be a perfect parent. I'm so tired of parenting experts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Holding themselves like, like standing up on their perch like, they don't mess up all the time. Like, right. It makes me want to scream. Like, I. Up all the time, all the time. Like, I've had this ongoing. People are like, no way. Okay. I've had this ongoing circle back with my daughter, who's now 11 and a half. We probably had it four times over the past, like five or six years. I remember it like it was yesterday. We were headed to a school event and she said something. I wish I could remember what she said, but I had this like, shame response, like the wind by my ears moment. My face got flushed and I'm like, oh, fuck, oh, fuck, oh, fuck. And when we parked the car, I turned around and I was like, can we have a quick, like, heart to heart for a second? And she's like, okay. And so as we're walking, I'm like, so if you need time to think about it, I'm not trying to, like, ambush you right now, but, like, I want you to think about this and tell me if this is. This feels, like, true for you, and I want you to know it's safe to tell me if this is, like, how it feels for you. Am I making you feel like nothing you do is good enough? And like, her face dropped and I was like, oh. And like, all I can do is acknowledge it, see the impact that I'm having, and say, oh, not really. I don't say. But, like, right. Like, see, like, the fact that I clock that as a bad thing is light years ahead of where I could have. Right. Yeah, I noticed it. I clocked it. I felt the, like, oh. In my body, the guilt and quite a bit of shame. And I said, I am so sorry that I'm making. Yeah, like, that. That's how I felt my whole life. I get it. And I'm gonna figure this out. Like, I'm gonna take this to my therapist. I'm gonna. I don't know how long it's gonna take me, but, like, this matters to me and I don't want to make you feel that way. And I'm probably gonna make this mistake sake again. And, like, you can tell me, you can say, mom, you're making me feel this way. And I will never get mad. It's not your job. But, like, if you clock it before I do, it is safe to come to me and like, hey, you know, that's like, I up all the time, but I also always repair. Yeah. And, like, it's okay if you messed up last week, last year, last month, I mean, however long ago. Just kids, like, it means so much when a parent can come back and own something no matter how far back it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Think how impactful. Like, it's okay. We can repair things. Like, relationships can be repaired when we're dealing with that energy.

[A]

It's funny you mentioned this, because it was actually ties straight into the. I mean, that's so powerful. And I feel like I have had so many of those moments with my children where, you know, I just love. I remember actually once having a life coach, I think it was, who was like, if someone brings up something about you, there's a chance that it's 1% true. So acknowledge that. Like, stop Defending yourself and just say, yeah, that. I do do that sometimes. You're right. And that has changed so many of my relationships. But this ties perfectly into my next question, which is many of our listeners who are so kind and conscientious all the time, they feel intense guilt when they've disappointed someone. Why does saying no or setting a boundary of some kind create and trigger so much shame for those people who are people pleasers?

[B]

So I'm gonna hold your hand while I say this. It's because you were made to feel like that over and over and over again. And, like, parts of us want to protect us, right? Like, it's when you're a child and your parent is unsafe, we will, beyond logical reason, make up a whole story about how it's actually our fault. Because it is psychologically, I mean, terrifying as a child to be like, oh, my gosh, my parents. Not a good parent. My parent is not meeting my needs as a child. Not that a child would think about it that way. But, like, we have to see them as safe and stable or else. Like, your brain can't continue. Like. Like, this is where children, you know, have mental breakdowns, right? And so for so many of us, our body just. And shame kind of promotes this. We made up a story where it's always our fault, right? Instead of seeing it as, like, that's a really messed up thing to say to a kid, we're like, oh, if I hadn't done that, they wouldn't have had to yell at me. So it's all my fault. Like, we come up with some sort of narrative, but, like, the reality is, like, I. With. Are you mad at me? With that whole struggle, which is not that different. It's kind of a first cousin of this. Like, how many of us have had a relationship in our lives, but really in our early part of our lives where we experience someone being mad at us and making us feel like they still loved us. Like, I had zero times. Like, I only really have, like, four, five relationships now. 43. And one of them is my therapist, where I feel like we can be mad at each other and it's safe. And I know that they still love me. Right? Like, of course you're terrified. Like, you were made. Like, I think for so many of us, our parents brought that energy of, like, I am so disappointed in you. I expected more of you. The issue was you. The issue was that their expectations were insane and inappropriate. Right? It's like, they could have expected you to be a flamingo, and they could be Disappointed that you're not a flamingo. Like, it doesn't. Disappointment valid. Their expectation is the problem. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I was the youngest. I don't really remember. And this I'm just sharing for the sake of sharing. But I don't really remember my parents being mad at me once. I don't remember them saying much at all. Shaming. But I do know that I knew what the standard was because all my siblings were good kids and perform high performers, hard workers. It was like an unsaid expectation. It's like, as I said to you when I was listening, I was like.

[B]

Like, my parents, I love them.

[A]

Like, they didn't do anything wrong, but it's like. And I'm not here to blame them at all about anything, but like, it was just. It was like a theater show in front of me of like, this is the expectation. Doesn't even need to be said. These are some. Your siblings are smart and they're intelligent and they're good kids and they're kind kids and they obey. And so it's just like, you didn't. I didn't consider breaking the rules. Right. It's just so interesting and. But yet I talk with clients all the time who get verbal. Like, it was more verbal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just don't remember. Or maybe I've completely blacked it out and I'm not sure.

[B]

Yeah, there's another piece too that I think is present for nearly all of us. And I did talk about it in the book, like, where we start having tantrums around 18 months and we don't generally have memories until five. Like, it's just our brains are just. When everything is new and our brain is wired for survival, it's going to prioritize the current environment and like, making sense of all the newness over. Right. And so we have a good three and a half years in there that you probably did show up as a toddler and get real toddler vibes. And that was met with parents who are woefully unprepared to respond to that with, like, understanding and compassion. Right. Like, a good parent has good kids. I feel like misbehavior in kids even now, like, in the year of our Lord 2026, like, misbehavior is seen as an indictment on parenting. Like, get a hold of your kids. Like, you're not your kid. Misbehave. You're not a good parent. Like, there was so much of that bullshit pressure on our parents. And so I think they. I Think by the time you turned five and we're finally making memories, it was so implanted, like at such a deep level. Right. That it doesn't go well for me. And your nervous system was like, oh, no, we do not, we do not push back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The way that we and you may have always been. I think a lot of good kids are sort of. There's a temperament component here too. Like you were always maybe going to be wired to be a more compliant child and more. Right. I think there's a fight flight tendency for a lot of good kids that we just have an underlying tendency towards on freeze response. And I think the bad kids who are not bad but are more likely to have a fight flight. And we're starting to see that in the literature. We're starting to see, not validated, that they. Yeah, you just were always going to kind of do that. And so it didn't take as much to teach you how to be a good kid. Right, Right.

[A]

Listen, even this morning I was listening and I, I know I'm going to respect your time, but I was listening to the podcast Smart List this morning and they were talking, they were interviewing like Kris Jenner or something and they were all talking about how it's the best feeling when someone compliments you on how kind and, and respectful your kid is. And I was thinking like, yeah, it's true. Like, it is the best feeling. Like, I don't need my kids to get A's. I don't need them to be good at baseball. I don't need them to be anything like. But if you get that compliment, you've got a good kid. It's a little high.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's not until right now that I'm realizing, like, oh, yikes.

[B]

I.

[A]

That's, that's, that's where all this comes from. Mm.

[B]

Right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's funny, we. There was somebody at our pool who complimented who said, your kids are so good like two or two or three years ago. And like I had alarm bells. I'm like, don't say that about my kid. You know, like the part of me is like, no, they're not good. But I think what I strive for is a well regulated child. Right. Like when a child is like, if this is oversimplified, but 0 to 10, 10 is where our body is going to force a release whether we like it or not.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Um, this is where we're crying and we don't know why we're screaming and we don't know why us as Adults and us as kids, right? Yep. And then we can go above 10, but our brains have to take us offline. And many of us spend our lives above 10. When we had a parent who struggled with addiction, or for me, personality disorders, where it was just unpredictable and inconsistent, and I just kind of didn't know what version I was going to get. So it's just very stressful when kids, when humans move into about 7 out of 10, that's where it seems like we move into dysregulation in our nervous system. System.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so if I ask the same child, like, we have to leave the park or we have to leave the party, or you need to put your pajamas on or whatever. It is transitional stress. If that child was at like a three or four, the frustration that they would feel that they have to leave, they'd still have some space between where they are and 10. If we do that same exact scenario and they're at a 7 or 8, we're going to hit 10. Like, no matter what their body is. Like Gabor Mate talks about when we bottle our feelings, it's like holding beach balls underwater. Yeah. And eventually our body, it takes a lot of energy to do that. And eventually it kind of runs out of the energy. I can't hold it anymore. Right. The pressure becomes too great, and that's when they explode to the surface. And so I think it's just, like, I want my kids to be able to feel safe feeling their feelings. Right. And so I've had to do so much therapy to learn how to be safe when they have their feelings, to be safe when they're needy. Like, I've had to go back for the parts of me that were made to feel so unlovable, so hard to love, so obnoxious, annoying, dramatic. My mother called me poor little pitiful pearl all the time to, like, tame me back into being good. So, like, pitiful is like, oh, my God, the deepest. Like, you want to put me horizontal? Like, the pitiful shame is like the deepest. And so my goal is not well behaved kids. My goal is to allow my children to experience the stress of life. Right. To feel safe coming to me. Because I've shown them a pattern of being a safe person who gets curious. That's another one of the five adjustments critical to curious. Right. Who, instead of moving right into judgment, is like, tell me more. Or when my kids are having, you know, an attitude or whatever, and I'm regulated. Yeah. If I'm managing my stress and I'm staying down here, then I have space before. Once I hit seven, it's like all my parts are, like, suited up and ready to take over. But to let them, you know, know that they can trust. I'll call mom and she'll be a safe person right now. She'll help me feel better, not worse, about the situation. She won't judge me. She'll be curious. She'll believe the best in me. She'll remember who I really am and know that this isn't me. Right. And let them feel safe falling to pieces in front of me so that they can release and regulate, you know? Yeah. Most of their life, they're hitting the stressful moments with the space to be well behaved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beautiful. All right, one more question. If shame has been the voice guiding someone's choices for years, what does it look like to begin letting that more kinder voice lead instead?

[B]

So I think I want to tell a story really quick. I. I don't have you read the whole book. Are you still reading it?

[A]

I have, like, half a chapter to go.

[B]

Oh, wow. You're all there. Okay. So my girlfriend, Logan, I had this moment with her where she's a trauma therapist, too. We're doing a podcast, actually, at some point. We haven't gotten it together to release it yet, but I really think so many of us, like, so much of the literature in coaching and whatever knowledge out there is that, like, it's like this. You can't love your other people until you truly love yourself. And I think that's bullshit. I actually think you. You can love other people really hard, but you can't fully love yourself until you've been fully loved by someone else. Like, we have to have someone see the most shameful versions of us or the versions of us that we've been made to feel are the most shameful. We have to experience someone. For me, it was my therapist. Sharon was the first person who saw those parts and, like, didn't flinch, didn't look away, just kind of like. Yep. And, you know, and. And I think we should have gotten that from our parents. Our parents didn't know how to be that for us. Nobody had ever done that for us, for them. So, like, why? How could they have done that for us? But, like, when someone can see those parts of us and love us anyway, it's like, there it is. So I had this moment with Logan where I had just a full fucking come apart. Right? Just, like, crash and burn moment. And, you know, those things that we feel shame about, and we're like, I Can never tell. I'll take this one to the grave, right? I blurted one of those out, actually. My brain's protecting me. I don't even know which one it was, and I don't either. But I had that moment of like, oh, fuck. Oh, God.

[A]

Put it back in. Put it back in.

[B]

Yeah. And so I made a joke. I'm like. So I. I really. Wow. I just said that out loud. Like, that was one of those things I was going to take to the grave. And Logan goes, okay, what else? Do you believe I wouldn't love you through. Through. Tell me so I can show you that I will. And I just remember being like, I've never been loved like this before, like, ever in my life. This is a new thing. This is a whole brand new experience. What do you mean? There's nothing about me that you wouldn't love. Like, you will love. And she's like, I will and try me. And like, that is the vibe that I think we need to start bringing to ourselves. Yeah, Gotta do the parts work. We've gotta go back to the parts that are hurting. We've gotta recognize all of our protector parts that are just working so hard to try to keep us safe and make sure nobody ever finds out that we're actually not perfect or whatever. The thing is that they're all trying to keep anybody from, you know, the parts of you that you've been made to feel are unlovable, you know, But I don't know. Like, I had this bathroom mirror moment that I didn't have a space to write about in the book, but eating disorder history as well. And after I had my son, I had a very rough pregnancy and birth with him. He was born early, very early. I was in the hospital for two weeks. My water had broken by the time he was born. I think I'd been on like 20 course of antibiotics in two weeks. Like, it was. I should be like a case study. Anyway, when he was like four months old, I got out of the shower and I was trying so hard to love that body that had just, you know, brought this baby, been through. I mean, I think by that point it was like close to 30 courses of antibiotics in like six months. You know, saying intellectually, I'm like, this body has been through hell. It produced a whole human, like, we need to be proud of her. But I couldn't. And my inner critic showed up in the bathroom mirror that day. It was the first time, like, I had a conversation with my inner critic. It always, like, had me in a Chokehold. But it was kind of like below my conscious awareness. My inner critic rolls up and I have this whole conversation. My inner critic's like, yeah, whoa, we got to do something about that. And I'm like, here you go again. I hate you. What is wrong with you? Like, why are you always so mean to me? And my inner critic goes, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm really not. And meant it. And I'm like, then what are you trying to do? Minor critic goes, it's just that your mother loves you more when you're thin. And so it's my job to make sure you're lovable to her. And I'm like, oh, my God, you're. You're right. No lies detected. But, like, that is how I was made to feel over and over and over again. And so my. These parts of us are looking at these patterns from childhood. They noticed every time we were told, I'm not mad, I'm disappointed. Or our parents had that face. They clocked. Shame is. Is experienced as a threat to survival. Right. Like, I'm going to lose my people. I'm a child. I'm not going to make it. And so we've got this Hochul whole code of how you've got to be to be lovable. And in my code, section 42 says, you must be thin to be lovable. And so these parts are like, but you have to be thin. And they really are trying to protect us. They love us. They want us to be safe. And a lot of our work is going, what's my code? Yeah, I have an activity I do with my clients where I'm like, we're going to start paying attention to the inner critic and what she says. Right? And, like, when she shows up with, like, you should be blank or you shouldn't be blank. Let's start writing those down. Yeah. Start clocking those at a conscious level. Because then we're like, oh, so there's a part of me that believes she's not lovable when she's not thin. Okay, now we can work on this.

[A]

Exactly, Exactly. Oh, I love that answer. Thank you for sharing that. I actually think I heard you talk about that on social media. Is that correct? Yes, I do.

[B]

A while ago. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I could literally go on and on. I'm shocked. I didn't, like, totally break down ugly crying in this episode. So shocked. But for another day. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for being here. Where can people know more about you? I've taken some of your courses like about the book. Like, tell me where we can learn more about you.

[B]

Thank you. So maggienick.com I have a membership at Camp Lovable, which is growing into a bigger thing. It's kind of my world. My membership is called Good Girl Rehab. So it's just for women globally and we do the work together and it's a campy Camp Lovable. So we're all just chilling in our in our camp gear. We have a bonfire and you get a care package every month from me. But on the socials, I'm Maggie with perspectacles because I got my turquoise glasses on. And then maggie.com for everything else.

[A]

Amazing. We'll have links in the show notes. Thank you for being here. It's truly an honor.

[B]

Thank you for having me. I love this conversation.

[A]

Oh, I'm so glad. Please note that this podcast or any other resources from CBTSchool.com should not replace professional mental health care. If you feel you would benefit, please reach out to a provider in your area. Have a wonderful day and thank you for supporting CBTSchool.com.