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- [00:00]
Capital One Voice
With the Venture X Business card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with no preset spending limit, your purchasing power adapts to meet your business needs. Capital One what's in your wallet? Find out more@capital1.com Venture X business terms and conditions apply.
- [00:20]
Sarah Lynch
I'm Sarah lynch, and you are listening to your Next Move audio edition. Produced by Inc. And Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the youe Next Move vault and is a conversation between host Bea Dixon and Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of women's workwear clothing company MM LaFleur. In their conversation, they discuss the necessary mindset that founders need to have to manage big challenges for their business and the importance of mental health for leaders. Here is Bea's conversation with Sara LaFleur. Enjoy.
- [00:59]
Bea Dixon
Hi, Sarah.
- [01:00]
Sarah LaFleur
Abby. How are you?
- [01:02]
Bea Dixon
I'm good. I'm so happy that I get you to myself today. Every time we talk, we're always talking amongst others.
- [01:09]
Sarah LaFleur
That's so true and right, though. Yes, I know we got connected through other people, but I am honored to call you a fellow entrepreneur friend and I'm delighted to be here. So thank you for having me.
- [01:24]
Bea Dixon
Thank you, thank you. I'm grateful. So I was listening to a podcast you did just in my, like, research for, you know, pulling together all of this. Oh my. And I was blown away by your story prior to you starting MM lefleur. Can you tell us about that? Like, your dreams and aspirations were. Were really dope, you know, and I don't think a lot of people know that about you.
- [01:56]
Sarah LaFleur
Thanks. Yeah, no, fashion was the last thing I thought I would be doing. Not because, you know, I thought poorly of it or anything like that. I just, I did not think it was an area of interest of mine. And I think for the growing up, for the longest time, I thought I wanted to work in international development, specifically having to do with refugee issues, and got to spend some time working in a refugee camp in Zambia and then spent some time working in South Africa for a nonprofit down there. And to make a very long story short, I was not cut out for the nonprofit sector, which is a very admirable and, you know, needed sector for sure. And I am, I am. I continue to root for all of my nonprofit colleagues. They're the true heroes of the world. But I think personality wise, I at some point realized I'm not made of the stuff that I think truly successful nonprofit workers are made of, kind of the art of patience and diplomacy. And I realized what I thrived in is Kind of the fast paced, incredibly scrappy, numbers oriented business. I guess I really realized what I like is business and I liked having a creative angle to it. Even though I myself am not really strictly the creative. I love being surrounded by creatives and working with them. So yeah, it was a roundabout path, but I can tell you, when I started this business at 27, I think two years before that, I had made an Excel spreadsheet of all of the possible ways my career could go. And starting a fashion e commerce startup was not even on the list. So it's funny how life turns out that way, right?
- [03:50]
Bea Dixon
But everything that you did got you to this moment now, you know, and I think. Yeah, and I think that that's the important thing to remember, you know, because I'm sure even though you realize that that wasn't necessarily the road you wanted to take, I'm sure you brought some of that humanity into your business, into how you treat the people that you work with, into how you want to serve humans through MM lafleur. You know what I mean? Like, I know that.
- [04:20]
Sarah LaFleur
Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Totally. And I think it continues to be a big part of me in the way I get to give back. So, you know, I've realized the way I'm gonna contribute to a cause that I care very much about isn't by working in it, but hopefully bringing attention to it, donating to it, sitting on their boards, and hopefully I bring something else to it. And I also get the great pleasure of talking about it to my customers. So we partner with the International Rescue Committee. We have for almost a decade now. We've hired recently immigrated refugees. We've hired them in our warehouse, we've hired them to do backend accounting work. We have contributed to the IRC for multiple give back moments. And so I think it continues very much to be part of who I am, even if it's not the thing I'm doing 24 7.
- [05:22]
Bea Dixon
Exactly. Yeah. I just, you know, sister, it's important for us to remember how we contribute and how we. Because whether you're on the ground or investing in it or doing all the things you just mentioned, you're still on the ground. You're just not necessarily physically in Africa, you know.
- [05:39]
Sarah LaFleur
Totally, totally.
- [05:41]
Bea Dixon
And so. Okay, so now let's talk about M.M.
- [05:45]
Sarah LaFleur
Lefleur.
- [05:46]
Bea Dixon
Can you tell us about it? Like, how did you. So the day that you decided that this was what you wanted to do, what was that? What was that moment like?
- [05:54]
Sarah LaFleur
It was a moment where I was like crying mostly and Couldn't even. Like, I was watching lots of old Grey's Anatomy episodes that I hadn't seen in a long time. And, like, through tears, I was like, I think I want to do this, but I'm not sure. So that, that's really how it started, you know, I just. For some context. So after I left South Africa, came back to New York, I got a job in a private equity firm thinking, I don't know, it was kind of the furthest thing from the work I was doing, but it was a firm I really respected and why not give this a try? To make a very long story short, it did not work out. And I basically left after four months, not having a plan B, not knowing what I was going to do with my life. But I had always had this figment of an idea that clothing for busy working women could be done better. My first job, my first real job out of school was working for a management consulting firm and where we had to dress up every day, dress up like professionals. And often I was sitting across the desk from these big corporate executives. Mind you, I was 23 years old and, you know, I could, like, barely afford rent that month. But you were supposed to pretend like you knew what you were talking about and, you know, you had your shit together. Oh, excuse me, I shouldn't swear, right? It's out now.
- [07:17]
Bea Dixon
Everybody knows that word.
- [07:20]
Sarah LaFleur
Anyway, so clothing for me was a real armor. And my mother worked in fashion and she taught me, she taught me everything I know about fashion. And she always said to me, you know, she was like, she would say, sarah, you know, why does a doctor wear a white coat? It's not because it's practical. It's because it communicates authority and demands respect. And that, that is the power of costume. So don't underestimate it. And so I think a lot of people think of fashion as somewhat trivial, and it gets thought of as kind of a side thing, a side piece. But I think there's so much magic in costume. And of course you can, you can choose to embrace it, or you could choose to say, I'm just going to wear whatever I want. And, you know, power to you. But if you choose to make it something that you, you know, you, you have your, your toolkit. And if you choose to make fashion one of your toolkits, I think it can be, it can be magical. And so the idea really was, you know, could we make busy working women feel better about themselves and communicate the message that they want to get across by getting dressed easier for them? There's a stat that we share that working women on average spend two more weeks than men getting ready for the office or getting ready for whatever they have that day. And I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, two weeks, like, what would you do with two weeks of your time? And so, you know, M.M. laFleur was really started with that in mind. We wanted to create beautiful clothes. I mean, that was kind of, that's a given. That was table stakes. And for that I have my co founder, Miyako to thank. She was the former head designer at Zak Posen and came from this incredibly illustrious fashion background. So she brought a lot of her high end fashion credibility and skills. But then beyond that, she was talking to our customers all day and all night saying, okay, what is it that you really want from your clothes? Oh, I want things that are machine washable. I want things that are wrinkle resistant. I don't ever want to have to go to the dry cleaner. I want things that when I sweat, it doesn't seep through. And so at one point we had these shirts where you had underarm pads so that if you sweat, you sweat into your pads as opposed to like into your silk. And you could just like rip that out and then put that in the washing machine as opposed to like having to send in your silk to the dry cleaner. Anyway, lots of, lots of creative ideas. And really from there, MM was born. And so, you know, I came at it very much from a customer's perspective. I'm not a designer, but I think of myself as the customer.
- [09:49]
Bea Dixon
To me, that is the only way to innovate is to think about yourself as a human that's using whatever it is that the product is. Right. Wow, that was brilliant, man. The pad under the underarm. Do you know how many times I've wanted and needed that? It's crazy.
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Sarah LaFleur
You and all women who sweat.
- [10:15]
Bea Dixon
Wow. What would you say? I mean, what you just said was that you think about yourself as your customer because you are your customer. But what else sets MM lafleur apart from kind of just the industry of fashion?
- [10:28]
Sarah LaFleur
I think maybe the most important part is that I believe, I'm sure all CEOs say this, but I truly believe we have a soul and that our customer knows exactly who she's shopping from. And we do that in several ways. I think probably the most obvious one is our digital magazine, our weekly newsletter. It's called the EM Dash. And actually when I started mm, I didn't even. We started that, this blog, the Em Dash before I even had a clothing line because I thought there was really no conversation happening around working women and their fashion struggles. Which actually you could say fashion struggles, but that very much overlapped with life struggles. Right? Like, why do you need things that are machine washable? I mean, I'll just say, like, I have. I'm a mom, I have three kids. And so usually, you know, before I get out the house, I have some amount of food on my clothing. That's just kind of the life I have. Right. And so being able to like easily wipe that off with a piece of cloth or throw that in the machine and put on something else is very essential to me. And we really try to tell that story, to communicate that story through the things that we write and through our branding. One of our taglines is we're perfectionists who spill on our clothes. We're not kind of your very self. Serious fashion with a capital F brand. You know, I think we say, you know, our clothes should be the least interesting thing about you. We're here to support you in whatever work you do. And so I think that makes us, I hope, more relatable and helps women feel like, you know, their money is going to support a business that will continue to improve their lives. Because we're really thinking about the lives they lead.
- [12:30]
Bea Dixon
That's real. Because it does. Because it costs, first of all, it costs a lot of money to build a wardrobe. Right? Your clothes are reasonably priced. I know that that's relative, but they just are. The value that you bring is incredible. My dry cleaning bill that I just had was astronomical. It was ridiculous, right? I think just that alone, that type of value that you bring already is such an innovative process because you're actually really thinking about the humans that you're serving. You know, it's incredible. And, you know, because your next move is really. Sure, like, we're talking, you and I are talking. But the thing is, it's really important, I think each one teach one. And when we're talking, you know, to anybody that's watching this, who may want to get in the game of fashion, right? In the business of fashion, it's really important to understand and know that, you know, making it so somebody can just simply. You're running out the door, you're trying to get out, your kid throws some juice on you or something, whatever. You don't want to have to make life decisions to figure out what you're gonna wear, you know, or how are you gonna get that stain off. You just wanna be like, I just Think that that's incredible. So I have an audience question. So in the nine years since you founded, online shopping has evolved a lot. A lot. Are you seeing any changes as a result of the global pandemic? A lot of people are staying home now. If, yes, what are they and how are you engaging with the challenges? That's a really good question.
- [14:10]
Sarah LaFleur
It's a great question. And I would say it's very rare that some sort of macro event doesn't touch our business. I would love to be. I'm trying to think of a business where maybe you're relatively insulated, Right. And I'm like, I mean, what business is not. But if I had to pick kind of categories that are. That feel it immediately, I mean, I would put. I'd definitely be. Would put beauty as one of them. And I mean, fashion is an obvious one. Right. And the pandemic was brutal for our business. We had to go through several rounds of layoffs. We had to close all of our stores. We had, I think, nine stores before the pandemic. We closed them all. We got to reopening two of them in the first year after the pandemic. And I'll tell you, one of them was in Washington, D.C. two blocks from the White House. And so that ended up being a rather catastrophic decision. We couldn't even access our store for six weeks while the insurrection was going on. I mean, it was like, think of every kind of crazy thing to happen in America over the past two years. And we felt the impact viscerally. I never want to say that any of that is fun. It's the last thing from fun thinking about how you're going to make sure that your business not only survives, but then thrives on the other end. But I have to say, I think those are the challenges that I really love digging my heels into and saying, okay, how are we going to get through this? And then specifically, yes, it's true. We used to cater to a lot of women who went to the office. And so there was a real existential crisis, I think, for the brand initially when Covid started, where we were saying, like, does, like, what is the point of mm if nobody is going to be meeting people, you know, outside their homes anymore? Lo and behold, I think just even two, three months into the pandemic, we had customers starting to write to us saying, hey, like, I need to be on these Zoom meetings, and I actually don't know what I'm supposed to be wearing or, you know, I'm sick and tired of being in My sweatpants all day because it's actually making me depressed, you know, what can I be wearing? And now that actually a lot of women are going back to the office or have gone back in some sort of hybrid form, I think, you know, we're starting to see people again. You guys are meeting in person to have this conference, right? Like, a lot of women are saying to us, like, okay, my company's gone casual in dress code, but what does that actually mean? Like, am I allowed to wear jeans to the office? I don't want to actually dress too casually. I don't want to overdress too formally and feel like I'm out of place. I think, unfortunately, a lot of the anxiety around getting ready for whatever you have ahead of you that continues. And I very much want to be there for her to say, like, you've got this. Don't worry, like, we're here to help you figure it out. So actually, our showrooms, which we've reopened, Bryant, the one in New York and the one in Washington, D.C. they have never been busier. It's a lot of women and kind of running in to say, like, and I am one of these people, you know, I've put on weight during the pandemic. None of my old clothes fit me. Help. Or I started a new job. I'm going to meet my colleagues for the first time. Help. So we get a lot of panicked calls, but you know, we're here for them too.
- [17:38]
Bea Dixon
And you have a stylist that.
- [17:40]
Sarah LaFleur
Yeah, we do. Yes.
- [17:41]
Bea Dixon
On your website, which is really, really cool. How does that work?
- [17:45]
Sarah LaFleur
You can go to our site, MMLFleur.com and you can book a virtual appointment if you'd like. You know, I think maybe that's one of the. One of the silver linings of the pandemic is that we learned how to connect with other people virtually over zoom. And so you can book a 30 minute consultation and one of our best stylists will work with you to say, like, I think you should try these styles. I can send them to you. And so that's a pretty seamless experience. If you can take 30 minutes to an hour out of your day and you live in the New York or Washington, D.C. area, do stop by one of our showrooms. You can get a glass of champagne and it'll be the most enjoyable hour of shopping you have ever experienced. I promise.
- [18:25]
Bea Dixon
I love it. I love it. And to piggyback on that question, we're also like flying like in a Lear jet into a recession right now. How does that make you feel? What did the pandemic teach you about how to prepare for that? Because nobody knew how to prepare for. Nobody knew how to. But I think it was school for us, right, Covid was school for us.
- [18:56]
Sarah LaFleur
Actually. You know what? I just want to share this story for a moment. There's a restaurant that I go to in a town called Kent, Connecticut, and the woman who owns this restaurant, Alyssa Stein, she's an amazing business owner, and her father started this business 49 years. They're about to go into their 50th year. And you can imagine, during the pandemic, I mean, definitely not easy for any restaurant, but this was a restaurant a little bit in the outskirts, so really hard to reach. And she evolved, and she said, you know, we became a commissary. We were selling groceries to our customers. We were doing takeout. You know, we did everything we could to survive. And she said, if you can't survive, then your business is not meant to be in business. And I just thought, wow, truer words have never been spoken. And so, yes, of course, it's always difficult, and the pandemic killed a lot of great businesses, but I think there's something to be said about, okay, can you. Can you innovate and can you evolve your business model to meet the needs of the times? And so, you know, if we're going into a recession, okay, what does that mean for. For a business like ours? I think there are going to be some customers who are going to be dropping down in price point. They're not going to necessarily want to shop for $1,000 jackets. And so I hope that they will come and find our business. And so it's my job as CEO to make sure that I'm acquiring them as customers, because we will also probably lose some customers who will say, well, I don't actually want to pay $360 for MM LeFleur jacket. I'm going to go shop at a fast fashion brand. So we'll lose some, but I hope we'll also gain some. And then I think kind of a. You know what's interesting just seeing the jobs report that came out is hiring continues to be strong, even though there is talk of a recession. And I think some economists are saying maybe the job market will continue to be strong because inflation is happening and people need to continue to work to support their lifestyle. So I am actually hoping that this will be a time where a lot of people are starting new jobs, which tends to be a good opportunity for us as a Business. So I think not to be all silver lining about it, but I think it's important to see, like, okay, recession overall terrible for the economy and going to be a very hard time. But is there opportunity for you as a business? And I think we're always looking for.
- [21:22]
Bea Dixon
Those, and I think there will be. I think we're going to be all right.
- [21:26]
Sarah LaFleur
You know, I think so too. But maybe that's just my, like, super positive thinking after two and a half years of a pandemic.
- [21:33]
Bea Dixon
Right. But I think, I think we're going to be all right because we've been through some. A pretty rough couple of years, you know, and it's hard to think that it could get worse than that, you know, and it can, but it also could be totally fine, you know, But I just didn't want to not ask.
- [21:48]
Sarah LaFleur
Thank you.
- [21:48]
Bea Dixon
Because I think that it's important to be thinking about these things.
- [21:51]
Sarah LaFleur
Thank you.
- [21:51]
Sarah Lynch
Yeah.
- [21:51]
Bea Dixon
You know, what would you say was a defining moment for MM lafleur?
- [21:57]
Sarah LaFleur
Gosh, I would say there have been several, but the pandemic, I just have to kind of pause and talk about that for a second because it was really hard on us as a business and our team had to get much smaller before it started growing again. I think for me, just knowing how hard our existing team was working and fighting for the success of the business, that to me was really inspiring and is probably the only reason I kept going. You know, there were so many moments where I also had. I had three kids during the pandemic, and I had people who I really, really respect, you know, and whose opinion I trust say to me, you know, Sarah, this wouldn't be a bad time to call it quits. Like, you built an amazing brand, an amazing company. Why not let this be the end? And I couldn't. I mean, how could I when there were so many other people at my company, you know, I mean, hiring was at an all time high. They could have left and gotten any number of jobs, but they chose to stay at MM lefleur. And so I really owe it to them to make sure that this company again flourishes and that they're able to say, like, wow, I was part of that. I was part of turning that company around and taking it to the other side. And so this has been very much a defining, a life defining moment for the company. And I think my team has fought like hell and honestly, they've, like, they've become the strongest professionals. If you can overcome this, I just, like, don't think there's much more you can do.
- [23:53]
Bea Dixon
It's interesting how somebody can just say to you, I think that if there's any time, now would be the right time to call a quit. Like you need to be the person to say that.
- [24:06]
Sarah LaFleur
And you know what, Bea? That was actually, in some ways, I am so glad I heard that because I think in my heart there was this moment of, huh, am I still doing what I'm supposed to be doing?
- [24:20]
Bea Dixon
Right?
- [24:20]
Sarah LaFleur
And when other people said that to me, I was like, hell no. Like, get out of my office. You know, I don't want to hear it. And knowing that my values and what I wanted to be doing, that I was staying true to that rather than listening to the advice of someone who I trust and respect in all of that, but who was not me. And that's as someone who is a perpetual people pleaser and cares a lot about what other people think, that was a good growth moment for me too.
- [24:58]
Sarah Lynch
We're going to take a quick break and be back with more from Bea and Sarah.
- [25:07]
Capital One Voice
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- [25:41]
Bea Dixon
What does success look like for Sarah as a human and then as a founder?
- [25:48]
Sarah LaFleur
For me, it has always been about freedom. You know, freedom to be able to do the things that I like to do, freedom to have a family and create a family when I choose to do so, freedom about how I spend my time. I think that is the most important thing for me. And so despite having taken a big financial hit on the company front during the pandemic, I feel very fulfilled. I do. I think it has really made me realize that I keep going and I keep doing what I do because I love what I do, not because I'm looking for some sort of big outcome that will then allow me to go sip a margarita on the beach in Hawaii. Not that I wouldn't love to do that. I'm always for that. But that's not why I'm an entrepreneur. And nothing against power to the people who are able to do that and want to do that, but for me, being an entrepreneur is deeply Tied with being able to be free to do a lot of the things that I love to do.
- [27:07]
Bea Dixon
I love that. So your end in mind when you think about your end in mind. Cause you know we're always taught that as founders.
- [27:14]
Sarah LaFleur
Totally, totally.
- [27:17]
Bea Dixon
What does that look like for you?
- [27:19]
Sarah LaFleur
Maybe I'm crazy for saying this, but I hope I'm like running mm ten years from now. Like maybe the business will have gone through a sale. Right. Whatever it is that my backers and investors need so that they can be made whole and hopefully more. But I hope I'm still with the business because that is what I love doing.
- [27:41]
Bea Dixon
I love that you will be no matter. But I feel like you're gonna be. Besides the obvious operational steps of learning as much as you can, breaking down the tasks, partnering, et cetera. What are some of the tools and tricks you've used to handle your mindset when you're faced with huge risky projects that you know your company still needs to do, but it's so large and terrifying that the temptation not to start is incredibly strong? That was a big question.
- [28:12]
Sarah LaFleur
That's a huge question. And so it's really around mindset shift. Is that right?
- [28:16]
Bea Dixon
Yeah, that's what it feels.
- [28:19]
Sarah LaFleur
Well, I will say I think the most important part, I mean I'm speaking to an audience of entrepreneurs here.
- [28:26]
Bea Dixon
Right B.
- [28:26]
Sarah LaFleur
That's, that's who we're talking to. So I feel like I do not need to state the obvious which is your mental health is everything. And I think people would laugh if they knew how much I spent both time and money wise on my mental health. I have been working with a psychiatrist for a decade now. I am pretty religious about getting in my exercise, even if that means just going on a 30 minute walk. And I don't, it's not that I always succeed at it, but it is, I feel the kind of the baseline of what I need to be clear headed. And I think when I, when I don't have that, I don't make good decisions. And I have been in a place I not, you know, actually not even during the pandemic. The pandemic was hard, but I wasn't in that place in 20, I would say 2019. I was kind of, there was a moment where I was, I really felt like I was spinning out of control and I had to just pop a ton of anti anxiety pills to get through the day and. Yeah, right. Like it's, I think it's, it's not just us. I think that's true of a lot of Entrepreneurs, I mean, and that was a really, really scary time for me because I, like, I couldn't even control my brain. I would just wake up in the middle of the night, totally panicked. And I told my psychiatrist, and she said, you know, let's up the number of appointments that we're doing. My family was a huge support. My mom lives in Japan and she actually, there was one weekend where my husband was going to be away, and I was. I was scared of being alone. You know, that's kind of how in bad shape I was. And my mom flew from Japan really just to be with me for four days. And that really helped. And so I realize I'm kind of oversharing, but I think my point is you need to make sure that you've got the support. You need to put your head back in a good place. Then the next thing I would do is really look to the team around you. Do you have a good right hand with whom you can really bounce ideas off of and say, I'm going to just be crazy here and suggest a bunch of crazy things and we're going to talk about all of them and making sure that you have that partner? And I don't think it necessarily even needs to come in the form of someone who works at your company. It could be a consultant, it could be a fellow entrepreneur friend. It could be a boss, board member. But having that support is crucial.
- [30:52]
Bea Dixon
First of all, you are not saying too much. I feel like as a society, we don't spend enough time talking about things that are real. Anxiety is real. Depression is real. Overwhelmed. Being overwhelmed is real. Talking to a therapist is a thing to do. And actually not just if you have something going on, but when you just need to be proactive. You know what I mean? So thank you for being honest and sharing that, because I think that people think that because you have a startup, or, excuse me, not a startup, because you have a really great business that has left the startup phase because you look like you're experiencing a huge level of success, that that means that everything's okay. It's actually easier when it's much smaller, you know? And so I applaud you for saying that because we should all be willing to say that if something's not right, then you have to be okay to say that it's not right. And I can't be alone and I'm bugging out and I need to take some medicine or I need to do whatever. Like, you have to do that for yourself. And I also feel like. And I Wonder if you agree with me. When it's something that's really huge, that feels really huge, and that feels like you're trying to figure out what you need to do. Also, the situations where it's like really risky, those are actually the ones that you have to lean into the most because it probably means that that's what you're supposed to do, even though it's the worst because you don't know what to do.
- [32:31]
Sarah LaFleur
So I feel like we were meant to have this podcast recording because I literally have a decision like that right now, and I think it's a sign.
- [32:41]
Bea Dixon
Yeah. And those are going to come always.
- [32:44]
Sarah LaFleur
The other thing I will say this kind of connects to wanting to be a people pleaser and wanting to look at the data and, you know, kind of all the things that I think maybe the business world teaches you to be. And actually my husband said this to me the other day. He said, I'm learning to trust my gut more. And it just kind of caught me by surprise because it is not how I would describe what I do. And yet I know I'm a deeply intuitive person, so I'm really trying to repeat that to myself, which is listen to your gut. Listen to your gut. Listen to your gut. Because it is rare that I have regretted a decision where I listen to my gut. Although I've done plenty of things on the other side.
- [33:32]
Bea Dixon
I was about to say, you seem like a person who listens to your gut. Like you've been willing to walk away from some really big opportunities because you knew it just wasn't what you were supposed to be doing. I think you do listen to your gut.
- [33:47]
Sarah LaFleur
Thank you. I know I just would never describe myself as that because that seems kind of, maybe, I don't know, like, you know something that other people don't. But maybe you just know.
- [33:58]
Bea Dixon
But in a lot of ways. Yeah, but in a lot of ways.
- [34:01]
Sarah LaFleur
I know it's right for me. Right.
- [34:03]
Bea Dixon
But in a lot of ways, you do know what other people don't as it relates to you. And when you think about founder led businesses, look, when we're talking about product innovation, sure, we do all the data and all the stuff and all the analytics and all the things. But if you ask me as the chief of innovation of Honeypot, yes.
- [34:27]
Sarah LaFleur
That's.
- [34:29]
Bea Dixon
I create products because I have a vagina. And I know what. You know what I mean. And you create products because you are a human who you just like you said earlier. So I think you do use your gut.
- [34:43]
Sarah LaFleur
Yeah.
- [34:44]
Bea Dixon
I think you do I really do. I want to transition because the way that you met your co founder was really dope and kind of the chance that she took. Because wasn't it like your mommy and your dad gave you like 35,000 and you had 35,000, so you had like 70,000 to start your business and then she left a huge designer to come and work with you and then you were going to talk to somebody else. Tell us about that because I think that's cool.
- [35:14]
Sarah LaFleur
The starting story, yes. This is literally over 10 years ago now. But I was, yeah, I was 27. I left this last job kind of screaming and crying out the door. Didn't know what I was going to do with my life. But I was like, I have always had this idea, let me go do this. I had. It's amazing that you know this, but Yes, I had $36,000 saved up and I called my mom again who lived in Japan and my bank account was in Japan, and I was like, mom, I want you to empty it all, put it all into my business account. And she was like, all, Are you sure about that? And I was like, just do it. Of course, you know, and no kids, no mortgage, no. No health concerns. You know, I was like, I was all in. And then I asked them if they'd be willing to lend me the same amount. So they said very generously said yes. And so we were off to the races with $72,000. And that really got me through, I would say, the initial year and a half of hiring the most important person to this business, which is my co founder. I have two co founders and my other co founder was just as important as well. But she was really on the operational side more with me and my other co founder, Miyako, who is very much still part of the business. She was the design brain. She used to be the head designer at Zac Posen Head done work with Jason Wu, had been nominated and also won several fashion awards. Like, she was a known quantity in that high end fashion world. And I kind of. I met her through a headhunter, which was also incredibly random because I did not know anybody in fashion. And I said to her, hey, you know, I've got this idea and I want to make it. I want to make American working women the most fashionable women in the world. What do you think about that? And it's still a miracle to me. Everyone says to me, like, how the hell did you get Mianko to join you? And you know, to this day, who knows? I think timing played a huge part in it where she was in her life and whatnot. But that's our founding story. That's how we met and we've been in business together a decade now. She is truly my best, best business partner.
- [37:40]
Bea Dixon
I mean, she came because she saw it right? Like what you created was dope. It would have been weird if she was like, no, I'm good. You know, in my opinion.
- [37:50]
Sarah LaFleur
Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. Everyone's always like, you know, they're trying not to be rude about it, but they're like, but like, I don't understand, like, how did she join you? And I was like, life, you know, you gotta take a lot of chances.
- [38:04]
Bea Dixon
Exactly. And the fact that this was going to be hers. You said the key word, that she worked for this person and for that person and with you. She actually works with you.
- [38:16]
Sarah LaFleur
Oh, 100%. 100%, yeah.
- [38:20]
Bea Dixon
So dope. So as your business continued to scale, how did your team needs change? Like how did you go from that first, you know, that year of having $70,000 bringing in this super, amazing, incredible human Miyako, you know, what's your other co founder's name?
- [38:37]
Sarah LaFleur
Nareen.
- [38:38]
Bea Dixon
Nareen, how did you scale from there? Because your leadership team is huge. Like that's so important to your scale.
- [38:46]
Sarah LaFleur
A lot of it in the initial stages was, can you introduce me to someone who's in this space? And it's a very particular kind of person who is willing to join you when you're seven people working in an office right above a methadone clinic. Like, that's like, that's a special person. So I, you know, one thing that I really dislike that's said often in the Starvade community is like the team that gets you to your Series A isn't the team that's going to get you to your Series B. As though somehow the series A people are not as whatever skilled or good as your Series B people. And I just think that's total bs. I think the people who are willing to join you when your company is nothing really, and are willing to roll up their sleeves and say, like, I see the electricity is out today. Let me see if I can get that working. By the way, meanwhile, their other job, their other real job is like marketing, sales, finance, hr, whatever it may be, that's a special kind of person. And I was surrounded by those kinds of people for most of the seed years. I say seed years, but like, you know, I don't necessarily think of myself in terms of funding rounds. We just, you know, we had a very long period of not being funded. So that team to me is, you know, I mean, the team that everything was built on, built upon. And a lot of them are no longer with the business. They've gone on to like, lead other incredible companies or start other incredible companies. But I, you know, if they called me, I would drop everything at a moment's notice and really try to help them because I think it's. It's that kind of deep bond, right, that we build. But. And I have to say, like, but my series B team, Series B plus team is like, just as extraordinary, just very different. I think we professionalized, if that's. That's the word to use here. And it's just. It's just an amazing group of individuals who. I always feel that, like, your executive team is like Power Rangers. Like, I'm always not. Rather than thinking about, like, okay, who's the best person to lead that particular department? That's obviously important. But I'm thinking about, okay, I've got my. I've got space for, let's say, six people around the table. And when we all come together, like, are we making magic together or are we just all each individually very good at our own jobs? And I never want the latter. I always want the former. That's how I've really approached it. And, you know, I think we have an amazing executive team.
- [41:36]
Bea Dixon
That's dope. I agree, man. You need entrepreneurs.
- [41:43]
Sarah LaFleur
There is no room for ego. 00,000. And like, I'll tell you what the true test of that is. If you suggest, like, moving some another person and if they're like, no, no, like, I want to keep that department, I'm always like, get that person out of here. My executive team is always like, I think it would make more sense for this person to report into you or, but I think that person should report into me. And they're always really thinking about, like, what is the right answer for the business? As opposed to right is what is the right answer for me, myself and my career. And when you find that you. You see that you can do a lot of magic together.
- [42:23]
Bea Dixon
So what's your advice for people? I'm just assuming based on what I'm listening to, that you built a very lean operation and you didn't really hire too much. What's your advice for people on how to build their team strategically, but build it lean, but also building it so that when it is time to go to the next level that you've kind of thought that out?
- [42:50]
Sarah LaFleur
This has sometimes Come to bite me. So I don't always recommend it, but I tend to always look to internally first to see what talent I have before I look externally. And I think that's good for two reasons. I think first of all, it's important to show that you can have career progression and development in your own company. Our average tenure for I think our current team is, don't quote me on this, but I think it's pretty close to five years. So I don't want to create a company where people are kind of coming and going every two to three years. Like, that's not, that's not how I want to run a business. I want people to feel like they can build a career here. So I always look internally. Actually, it's not even try. We always look internally before we look externally. And then when, when we feel like, okay, actually the skillset really doesn't exist inside the company, then I often will try out a consultant or a freelancer first, which gives me usually a much better sense of what it is that I could get if I were to look outside. I think when I have hired too fast is when I've made my biggest mistakes and then you have to go and lay people off or fire them, which is actually the most demoralizing thing for the team that remains. And they get a lot of questions around it. So I would say I don't. Again, I'm not a big fan of the higher fast. Fire fast. I'm a big fan of the higher slow. Look around you, make sure you don't have the talent internally. Hire consultants, hire freelancers, make sure you've got the right role and then also fire fast if it doesn't work out.
- [44:26]
Bea Dixon
That mistake that you said where you actually had to let people go because you've been there, how did you do that?
- [44:33]
Sarah LaFleur
As graciously as you possibly can. And it is a terrible feeling. And I've done it multiple times and it really never gets easy. But it is obviously much, much harder for the person who is receiving it. And it is never the time to go over all the things that you wish they could have done better. It is the time for you to kind of. I always say, if you're going to have to. If you're going to fire someone, that is your opening sentence. Today is your last day at X Company and then make sure you can set them up for success in their next. In their next recruiting process. That is my advice is to be as concise as possible. Make it very clear what is happening that day. And really, to wish them well on their next journey. I have never been fired, luckily, but I have been at companies where things just didn't work out, and it was, you know, so I left. I know that I have. I could have been successful in a different environment, but I couldn't be successful in that environment. And I do try to remember that for everyone for whom it doesn't work out at mm, they will be successful somewhere else, just not here. And that is okay. That happens.
- [45:51]
Bea Dixon
So when you said to help to set them up for future, so did you already. Did you already have, like, contacts for them to talk to a consultant? Had you already talked to the consultant about the. You know, like, how does that work?
- [46:04]
Sarah LaFleur
We've done several things. You know, in Covid, when we had to do mass layoffs, we created essentially an entire resume packet of all the people who said that they wanted to be a part of it and sent them to investors and contacts that we knew who had other companies in their portfolio who wanted to hire. I've also introduced people who we had to let go to other entrepreneur friends of mine who I knew were looking for people and try to make active introductions. And then, last but not least, I always say, look through my LinkedIn if there's anyone you want to talk to, more than happy to at least ask if I can make an introduction. So I think there are tangible ways you can help. Even if you're not, like, a big, established company who can set them up with a recruiting firm. I think there are a lot of other ways to use your network to at least let them know that you're there. Should you decide. Should that person decide that they want help with their next search process?
- [47:00]
Bea Dixon
What would be your advice to somebody who's looking to start a business today? Because starting a business when you and I started is, like, light years different.
- [47:10]
Sarah LaFleur
I know. I was like, those are, like, the dinosaur ages, right? I know, but. No, no, no, no. It's a good question. And so I will give the advice that I give a lot of other entrepreneurs, which is get a. Get a side job, get a side hustle, whatever that is. For me, it was tutoring. So I tutored for the first two years of working on MM LeFleur, because what I didn't want to have happen was, first of all, I didn't want to use any of that $72,000 to pay for myself, which, if I'm. I was living in New York City, and if I wanted to use that $72,000, I could have, like, it could have Gone like that in a year. So I started tutoring. And so basically, my data, my work schedule was I would be working on running to factories, running to meet people, all the way up until maybe 4pm and then 4pm till 7pm I was tutoring. And then. And then I would, you know, hop online and work on my. My business after. After seven. But I had those three hours dedicated to tutoring and made honestly decent money, like enough to survive in New York City and pay rent. And, I mean, I wasn't doing anything fancy. I didn't go on a trip or anything like that, but I made ends meet. I think that was a prudent strategy. I mean, it wasn't a strategy at the time. It was just a way I survived. But in retrospect, it was a very clever strategy because I felt like I could keep going, working on the business for as long as I needed to, as opposed to working with this arbitrary timeline. I often hear people say, like, well, I've got $50,000 saved up, so when I run out of the $50,000, I'm going to go do something else. And I was like, but what if you're just like, what if you're just getting going? And I never wanted to be panicked about not running out of money. So, I mean, it could be anything. Starbucks offers amazing benefits, like, go work at Starbucks while you work on your business. And then the other thing was, I feel like in startups in the early days, there's a lot of downtime because you're waiting for a lot of other people to get back to you. There's a lot of quiet time, and people tend to panic during the quiet time, thinking, like, oh, my God, I'm just, like, not working hard enough on my business. Let me do something. And I think that ends up being wasted time. So knowing that you're going to have that downtime, like, what other work could you be doing? You know, you don't need to be a startup founder and raise a million dollars out of the gate to be an entrepreneur. That is, like, really not the only way, and actually probably the least likely way to get a. Exactly.
- [49:46]
Bea Dixon
I was like, that's super unrealistic these days.
- [49:48]
Sarah LaFleur
Totally. And yet, like, read. When you read Business Insider or what have you, it makes you feel like that is how everyone is starting a business. And it's just not true.
- [49:57]
Bea Dixon
It's not. Because most of the time, you know, it still baffles me when I hear people start businesses and they, like, come out the gate raising like, $5 million and first of all, it upsets me sometimes. And the second of all, second of all, it's just not realistic, you know? It's not. Man, I love talking to you. I always love talking to you, though, because I love how real you are, you know, and I love how human you are. And you're just a really special person. So thank you so much for your time.
- [50:32]
Sarah LaFleur
It means so much to me coming from you. Thank you.
- [50:39]
Sarah Lynch
That's all for this episode of youf Next Move. Our producer is Matt Toder. Editing and sound design by Nick Torres. Executive producer is Josh Christensen. If you haven't already, subscribe to youo Next Move on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, your Next Move is a production of Inc. And Capital One Business.