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- [00:01]
Capital One Narrator
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- [00:50]
Loren Bouchard
I guess one way to answer your question is I've come to the end of it. Not that I'm retiring, but I've done probably the work I was meant to do on this planet.
- [01:08]
Casey Feiney
I'm Casey Feiney and this is Creative Control. Each month I'll be interviewing your favorite celebrities and creators to unpack what's at the intersection of creativity, business and brand building. In this episode, a conversation with Bob's Burgers creator Loren Bouchard. According to Lauren Bouchard, you can either go the formal route of establishing a creative career or just make shit. Both have their merits, to be sure, but Lauren would argue, and I would have to agree, that making shit is a true superpower. Lauren is a creator of Bob's Burgers, which over the course of its 15 year run has become one of the most beloved animated series on tv. But Lauren will be the first person to tell you that as a high school dropout with no formal training in animation, his path to creating Bob's Burgers was anything but conventional. In our conversation, we unpack Lauren's unlikely journey to becoming one of animation's top showrunners, what it really takes to build work that lasts, and what keeps his creative passion burning for a project that's lasted more than 15 years. But as always, I like to start at the beginning with my guests. So I asked Lauren what was his first memory of doing something creative.
- [02:26]
Loren Bouchard
Hmm, that's a fun question. I should be able to go pretty far back. As a preamble, I'll say this. I really was very much raised to do this job. You know how like in the movies when they like, the dad takes the girl out into the frozen tundra and teaches her like, survival skills and then by the time she's ready to face the bad guys, like she knows everything there is about how to build a bear trap or whatever that's kind of.
- [02:53]
Casey Feiney
Are you thinking of Hannah?
- [02:55]
Loren Bouchard
Yeah, yeah, I.
- [02:57]
Casey Feiney
You are Hannah.
- [02:58]
Loren Bouchard
Got it.
- [02:58]
Casey Feiney
Yeah.
- [03:00]
Loren Bouchard
Because my mother was a writer and my dad was a painter and they both love music. And so in a lot of ways, even though no one was in animation, I was being groomed by them by accident to be in animation. So it really is. I think about it a lot, how I was. All the things they were doing and then encouraging me to do were really setting me up to have fun and thrive in once I dropped into animation. So earliest creative thing. I mean, I definitely don't know if this counts as creative, but I saw the movie Rocky when I was probably six years old and I wrote Rocky on all the furniture in my room.
- [03:49]
Casey Feiney
So graffiti is your first creative. Vandalism is your first act of creativity and spelled wrong. How did you spell it? I added an E. Oh, Lauren, come on now. It's not as if like it's not on big block letters on the movie poster. But it's fine, it's fine. We learned from our mistakes. Yeah.
- [04:09]
Loren Bouchard
Not smart, not right. Yeah, just energetic.
- [04:12]
Casey Feiney
That's so funny. So, you know, I mean, so the story goes. Cause obviously you mentioned, you know, this amazing foundation and your parents like really giving you a lot of ammunition for your creativity. But you know, the story goes that you actually dropped out of high school and eventually wound up bartending. And when you're around early 20s, you know, you bumped into your old science teacher. And that science teacher just so happened to be Tom Snyder, the eventual pioneer of squiggle vision. That's amazing technique where you know, the characters always look like they're shaking and moving. And he of course was the eventual founder of the studio Soup to Nuts, which turned into Tom Snyder Productions, so. Which he invited you to work at, which I think is incredible. So it's like here you are, this young 20 something year old high school dropout, sort of trying to figure out. Figure out life. And here you have this amazing opportunity that's just sort of. That just plops into your lap. So I'd love it if you sort of take me back to that moment.
- [05:10]
Loren Bouchard
I love reflecting on this kind of moment in my life. And I have kids now and I like talking to them about it because what I wanted and what I ended up with Once I was 18, 19, 20 years old were so dramatically different. I had removed from my life the opportunities for luck by not finishing school and not going to college. I had, I shrank things down. And my, my mother had died. My dad was wonderful, but didn't have any sense of access. He always was an outsider himself kind of a guy, really a self made guy who came from, you know, really working class roots. So. And he himself did not do a ton of schooling. And I was doing work, I was doing like on the side, you know, I'm bartending and then I'm taking writing classes and I'm, you know, like adult ed type classes and I'm taking drawing kind of seriously, like. But I was very. I knew I had something to say. I was recording a lot of music on a four track. I knew I was a. I felt deeply, deeply creative and deeply, deeply committed to letting that out. I had a sense that I was this guy who was kind of prepared for that. I kind of been set out into the world with this idea that I would be a guy who would write short stories or write songs, something. And yet what I had found myself at that age when all my friends are in college, most of my friends are in college, and I'm bartending and I became really worried that I had shut all these doors without meaning to. But now what, now what do you do? And I remember even realizing that animation might have been such a cool thing, but it felt so far away. It was like, you know, roughly 88 when the Simpsons came out. I'm 18 years old, you know, I was working nights, but I would set up the VHS recorder and I'd watch. And I remember thinking like, this is drawing, this is music, this is writing. How cool that somebody gets to use all those three things that could be a thing that I could have done if I didn't exist on an island, you know, which is what I felt like in Boston, Massachusetts, with no education and no access. I felt like I had no chance of ever doing something like that. So that's me walking around every day. And in particular on this one particular day in Harvard Square, my memory is, I'm going to get art supplies. So I guess I was still trying to draw and I come out and I run into this guy, Tom Snyder, who was my science teacher when I was in grade school. And he'd stayed in touch and I'd be worked a summer at his educational software company. He'd left teaching, but, you know, he'd gone on to a lot of success in educational software. And he'd been very, very kind to me after my mother died and still friendly with my dad, who was a teacher at that school too. So I think it was very natural for him to say, hey, you know, do you still draw? Do you want A job. He was just a good guy who gave people jobs. Under other circumstances, it might have been just a normal opportunity, like a nice thing for someone to say. But in that situation, given where I was, I knew, I knew in that moment, and I knew every day after that moment that I had become incredibly, almost stratospherically lucky. And that Tom was going to open the door for all the things I wanted to do and that he and I were going to be able to put me back together. The version of me that I had in my head, but had been sort of sanded down by, you know, a lot of hours attending bar and feeling lost. And then, you know, here he just could see me the way I had been. And that's exactly what I wanted to be. So I jumped in. I knew it was beyond lottery lucky, like truly, truly, truly. If I didn't know him, I don't know how my life would have turned out. Very, very different.
- [09:20]
Casey Feiney
No 1,000%. And I just want to take a second because what you said, I think I got a little choked up. I'm not gonna lie. You said that it put you back together into the version of the person that you wanted to be. And I think that that is absolutely. It just kind of speaks volumes to you have no idea how you can impact someone's life. Cause I kind of feel like he could have just been like, oh, you know, hey Lauren, good to see you. Say hi to your dad for me. That's it. But he offered you this and like now look at where you're at. So I just think that that's such a beautiful, beautiful thought. And you know, I'm curious, like this, this, this very non traditional way that you entered into the animation industry. I mean, in what way do you think that has really shaped your career?
- [10:09]
Loren Bouchard
When I talk to people about how to get into this industry, I always try and remind people that they're are kind of two big choices. There's like through channels and then there's makeshift. And makeshift is like just kind of a superpower in a way. It can be a little lonely, it can be a little scary. But what we were doing, what Tom championed at that, you know, the size of the company, we were, which was very small and because we were in Boston, we weren't in New York or la. It really was, let's just make stuff, let's just get together and what we think sounds good. And if it's like, if it's. You're doing a little bit of this and I'm doing a Little bit of this and he's doing a little bit of this. That made sense to us. It was very collaborative and improvisational and literally improv, like the actors were improv, improvising, but also the act of making it was improvisatory and it was very. I sort of equate it now when I look back on like being in a band or something like that, where you got to figure each other out and who's good at what. And of course you have some specialization, so you're not all truly doing everything. I didn't draw after the first couple times that I tried to help out on the drawing side, it wasn't what I was going to be useful at. But I would stay up all night editing the audio. I loved editing audio. And so we specialized. But it wasn't like a bigger company or like a production in LA where you have all these defined roles and a really defined path and you might even have trade organizations that are training you. And you can do that if you are like, you know, like, for example, writers can do the job of being a writer and never do another job. And it's not frowned upon. Nobody comes, you know, nobody in LA says you're a writer. What else do you do? They say, but where we were coming from, it was. You would almost certainly be, and this isn't 100% true, that we did have a couple folks who just wrote, but mostly you were really going to be writing, but also directing, but also editing, et cetera, et cetera. So what I would say to answer your question is I now am very grateful that I did all those jobs from the beginning before I started the kind of, maybe what you might call the high profile jobs of writing and creating a show and running. And so again, just to get back to your question, which I think is terrific, I do gently push people in the direction of the non traditional channels of the makeshift school of, you know, of work. Because if you are interested in that showrunner gig, then you'll be in great shape. You'll have done all these other jobs and it will seem very natural to you. You'll just become the showrunner you were always meant to be over several years. I also don't think people should be offered that gig when they're young. That's a. You know, I feel very bad for anyone who has that job in their twenties and I might even feel bad for people who try to do that job in their 30s. I was thrilled that I didn't have Bobs until I was 40. That was the big leagues and the scale of Bob I hadn't experienced before. I'd run shows, in fact, in my 20s and in my 30s, but they were so small that it was manageable.
- [13:52]
Casey Feiney
That's a perfect segue into Bob's Burgers. Because, again, this show has just taken on such a life of its own. And it feels. It's one of those shows where you just know that it's special. It has such a unique perspective and such a unique voice. And as I was saying before we hopped on this call, because this is a comfort show for me. For those who aren't aware, how would you describe Bob's Burgers? Cause there's still some people who don't know the show exists, which is crazy to me. So from the creator, how would you describe Bob Zubergas as someone who's never seen the show?
- [14:33]
Loren Bouchard
Okay. I think it is very accurate to simply describe it in some ways as exactly what it is. Which is it is a story about a family that runs a restaurant. We were so glad that that didn't already exist. Or I should say, I was so glad when I pitched that. I had been thinking about it. I knew it was something I was interested in as a storyteller. And I was like, I can't believe this doesn't exist. A family sitcom where the kids help the parents run the restaurant. Cause we all know that ex.
- [15:04]
Capital One Narrator
Right.
- [15:05]
Loren Bouchard
We all have been in those restaurants. And it's the only. Really? Like, I think, yeah. A workplace comedy and a family sitcom are both great forms, and the fact that you can do them together in a restaurant was helpful. Now I will say the next thing we needed to do that I think goes to the core of what the show is and how I would describe it to someone who's never seen it is it's on the verge of failure. The restaurant.
- [15:34]
Casey Feiney
Never ending tension there.
- [15:36]
Loren Bouchard
Yeah. And I think that's really important. And I would add, and yet they are happy. Yeah, it is stressful, but they are not sorry to be in that situation. They are strivers and dreamers who see this moment in time when this restaurant may or may not succeed as sometimes difficult, sometimes painful because they can't afford things. They rent their apartment, they don't take vacations, the kids don't have a ton of after school activities. But they do actually appreciate the moment that they're in and enjoy the struggle. And that is, I would say, a description of what the show is. Aside from the fact that it's animated and no one ever gets older. I think that's a crazy thing that's part of it that, you know, I don't take for granted. We get to tell the story of this family frozen in this moment. They'll never succeed, nor will they fail. They'll always be in this. This one year, call it, where the children are 9, 11, and 13, and the parents are in their mid-40s, and they don't know whether they're going to make it. And we don't have. Because we don't have to have characters aging. We don't have to have the clock moving. We just. It's like Groundhog Day, where they keep having the same Christmas again and the same Halloween, and it's just. It's as if they had to do the day over again over the whole year. And it's. I do think the show benefits from that immensely.
- [17:10]
Casey Feiney
How so? Because I feel like that's something that is. I'm so glad that you touched on that, because there's a million different floating theories which are like, are they in purgatory? It can get dark when people really dig into, like, how they're reliving, like, every single holiday and whatnot. So I guess for you, what makes that such a rich sort of framework for a show?
- [17:33]
Loren Bouchard
I mean, I feel that your connection to the character you is partly a function of how well we write any one episode or execute any one joke or get a recording of a line, get the take we want. But it's also based on time. Time spent for you with that character or the whole family, and that kind of time that we're now dealing with. 15 years. That's a crazy amount of time where you get fed new versions of new stories. So it scratches that itch. It's not like, oh, I've seen this episod. But you also know that character, and you know how they're going to react in most situations. And in fact, you know it really well. You have 15 years of experience watching that show. Not all our fans do, of course, but many do. Or at least they have enough. And let's not forget the rewatching. So in some cases, they'll know an episode of Bob's Burgers way, way better than I do. Yes, maybe better. I. For me, I'm like, oh, it's dusty. It's a dusty memory. I got to, like. I got to, like, strain to remember what the story was. But for someone else, they just watched it yesterday.
- [18:50]
Casey Feiney
Right? Right. Yeah.
- [18:53]
Loren Bouchard
That brings up the whole streaming thing,
- [18:55]
Casey Feiney
which is, oh, 1,000.
- [18:56]
Loren Bouchard
Which is a whole other thing. I Mean, first there were DVDs, which is. Which is wonderful. And that sort of trained us all. And now it's like, even more, you know, quick access. I can, you know, have it on any device, and I can have them all without even, you know, for the cost of one subscription. So a lot of things went our way. And I. I know live action people probably on some level would say, well, who says I want to work on the same show for 15 years? Some people. I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine there are some folks who are like, no, I'm glad the kids grow up. There's an ending. This is a, you know, let's say it's a phenomenally successful show. And it goes seven seasons, and then it's like, well, I mean, we told our story. And I think for those folks, I would say, absolutely, I totally get it. You get to go and do your next thing, and you don't. You're not shackled to the show forever and ever. It's not a show like, you know, it's not the Simpsons, which, you know, is going to be 30 years, is already over 30 years old. So it's like, it is helpful in some ways to say. Some folks wouldn't see it as an advantage, but I do love my job. I do love these characters. And I have not noticed, for me, we have not run out of things to say. And so as a result, I would say we're really lucky that we're animated and that we can stay frozen in time.
- [20:31]
Casey Feiney
Right. And to that, I mean, I would love to hear a little bit more about what that's like from a creative perspective, because to your point, you get to revisit these characters and put them in different situations. But I'm just curious, like, what is that, like, as a creative, like, revisiting these characters in this moment time and time again for 15 years?
- [20:50]
Loren Bouchard
It's probably like being in the Rolling Stones or something. It's probably like being in one of these bands that goes, you know, an extraordinarily long time where it's not so much that you think you'll write Satisfaction again. It's not that you're chasing your greatest hits. It's more that you still like the sound of your band. You still want to play together. You still hear a little something like, I had this idea, and you want to know what the guitar, the other guitar is going to do and what the bass is going to do and what the drums are going to do, and you want to know. So I think it's like that, like, oh, we have this little bit of an idea. What would Bob do in that situation? Well, that seems sort of funny. And I think if the day when we are just. We don't think that it seems sort of funny will probably be the day we should hang it up. But it's at the moment it still tickled our fancy to say, like, oh, well, now that, that would be fun. What if Linda gets her boob caught in a mammogram machine? Like, now, that's an episode we would like to see. So I think that's the way it works. It's funny. You don't want to. You know, I once heard Tom Petty not to keep comparing us to classic rock.
- [22:02]
Casey Feiney
No, you can.
- [22:03]
Loren Bouchard
No, no, I will say this. I do look at older artists and how they manage their lives once they're not young people anymore. And I am interested in. My ears perk up when I hear somebody sort of looking back on a long career. So Tom Petty was on the radio before he died, and I heard it while I was driving home. And the interviewers said something about asked something about songwriting. And he said, you know, you don't want to look at that one too closely. He said, if you're me, because you don't. You never know when the magic's going to disappear, when you just stop coming.
- [22:39]
Casey Feiney
Oh, wow.
- [22:40]
Loren Bouchard
And I thought about that at the time and I didn't totally get it. I was like, no, I want to hear how you what your process is. Don't hide it from us, Tom Petty. Tell us how you write your song. But I think what now I think back on it and what he's saying is, like, on some level, if it's working, like, don't question it. Just keep doing it for as long as you can.
- [23:02]
Casey Feiney
We're gonna take a quick break, and when we're back, we'll hear more from Bob's Burger's creator, Lauren Bouchard.
- [23:11]
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- [23:52]
Casey Feiney
And we're back with Lauren Bouchard, creator of the Bob's Burgers So if you couldn't tell by now in this interview, I am a huge Bob's Burgers fan. It is easily one of my top comfort watching shows. So I've easily seen every episode to date. Way too many times to count. I even have a coochie copy toy in my office. I mean, if you know, you know. But one thing I find interesting is that despite having two Emmy awards out of 16 nominations, a die hard fan base, and being on the air for over 15 years, there are still so many people who have no idea about Bob's Burgers. So I asked Lauren where he sees his show within the pop culture landscape.
- [24:31]
Loren Bouchard
I think there's a couple of ways to answer that and I'll try both for sure. We came into this feeling like an underdog in a good way, and we've held onto that. And in some ways the success of the show, it can be something that you squint and it goes away. I mean, obviously we've been on the air a lot of years. We love winning awards. It's a great pleasure and it's a great honor. All of those things are great. And just being nominated, it is truly a great honor to be done. That's not a line, that's a fact. However, I will say we can squint. Everyone who works on the show can pretty easily imagine a world where it doesn't exist. We're not this like foundational show, like you know, just this. And it's never been a phenomenon. It's not even the latest phenomenon. Nor is it like a bedrock show like Mickey Mouse or whatever it is going to, I think always probably have this cult quality. And we like that because we want to come from a place of humility. I think we all sort of like it. You know, it's like that thing where it's like you can make a lot of money but if you shit your pants.
- [25:55]
Casey Feiney
Yeah, exactly.
- [25:57]
Loren Bouchard
And that's just human. Your human reality coming back to keep you humble. And that's what we put into the show. That's what Bob's kind of is. It is about this like, pretty humble family with these pretty humble problems or I should say, massive challenges and a humble approach. And one way we would really get screwed up, I think, is if we were a bigger hit then it's like, how do you keep writing? You know, it's hard enough to write the show when everyone's paid off their mortgage or whatever. But it's. It would get even harder if I think if it was as big as some of the other shows. I'm glad we are. If there's some version of a line and there's pop culture ubiquity and then there's everything else, we love being down there. That's really nice for us. It's helpful. And I kind of semi seek it out almost. We, we try to avoid where we touch that top of that line. And we feel like we're about to experience what it's like to, to be the Simpsons or be Bugs Bunny or whatever. Like, we, we are glad when it, when those, when the lights go out and, you know, we, we fall away from them. And then I guess the other way to answer the question is also, how do we see ourselves in the culture is also just what do we.
- [27:17]
Casey Feiney
Oh, that is really beautiful. That is really beautiful. And you know, I know that you probably can't reveal much because you usually do for like at Comic Con, but what can people expect from season 17?
- [27:30]
Loren Bouchard
I mean, I already gave you one. It's the. Linda's going to get her stuck. Her boobs stuck in the mantle. Oh, yeah, that's real. I also have to, I have to remember now, some of these ones that we're working on will actually get kicked into the next chunk. You know, we've got these shortened seasons now. We're gonna be on in the spring, so we're not doing holiday episodes. But we are gonna do.
- [27:53]
Casey Feiney
That is a bummer.
- [27:55]
Loren Bouchard
Oh, sorry.
- [27:55]
Casey Feiney
Oh, my God.
- [27:56]
Loren Bouchard
Sorry.
- [27:58]
Casey Feiney
No, I did hear about the mid season, but it just didn't register that, yeah, we're not gonna get these iconic holiday episodes like that.
- [28:07]
Loren Bouchard
Oh, but we're making a short. We are making it short. I personally and all of us collectively really felt bad about this holiday thing. It is so fun to write those and make those and deliver that to an audience that's wanting it. And we just drink up the reaction to every single one of them. It's so fun. And I will say I miss it already and I hope to get back to it. But in the meantime, they'll take as many shorts as we can figure out how to make. So this year we did a Christmas one. Next year we'll do a Thanksgiving one. And it's a. It's got a big old musical number in it and it's got heart and it's got, I think, gonna have a production value that we can kind of push a little because it's a short. So we can put those nice shadows on the characters and put a little more love into each background. So that's gonna Come before anyone sees anything else.
- [28:59]
Casey Feiney
I feel like there is so much of you in this show, in a way, and I feel like this is your baby, and this is. It's such a phenomenal piece of work. So I'm just curious, like, how this process of working on Bob's understanding the reaction that it's had with audiences, like, how's that. How's that. How's that shaped you? How's that changed you?
- [29:18]
Loren Bouchard
Well, I mean, I think it's an expression of that feeling I had that. That day that we were talking about, that moment when I was 23 years old and I knew my life was changing in a way. I guess one way to answer your question is I've come to the end of it. Not that I'm retiring, but I've done probably the work I was meant to do on this planet. And again, I want this for everyone. I want everyone to know what it feels like because it's so great to be doing the work, you know, you were meant to do, and then to have people receive it with so much love and to give me back so much appreciation and make me feel so good for having stuck with it.
- [30:04]
Casey Feiney
This.
- [30:04]
Loren Bouchard
This kooky career and this strange fascination with working with John Benjamin and figuring out animated vehicles for his lovely voice, and this is. Finally arrived. And I know John feels this way, too. It's like, oh, here we are. We got. We put it together. This sort of the version that was going to reach this quite large audience. And it's satisfying to us. We're not embarrassed, you know, we're proud of it, even. And so you get. But to some extent, and I would never say this without knocking on wood, but I'll say on some level, you get to this I could die now moment. I don't feel that way because I have a family. So I'm going to knock.
- [30:42]
Casey Feiney
Please don't. For their sake. For everyone else, yes.
- [30:46]
Loren Bouchard
I do not feel that way about my family life, but I do feel that way creatively. I will go on to do many, many things, and I love my job and I love to continue to work, and I. And I seek out work I don't want. I am never fantasized about retiring. I've never fantasize about even really slowing down more than a little bit, you know, more. I like to slow down off of the crazy, you know, pace we were at at the beginning, because that will kill you. But we were. We've done that. We've had that for years. So now at this moment, I can Say I can look out and say, I am so proud of this and so appreciative of where it works into the audience's life. What the letters I've received, I mean, it's just incredible. I'm moved to tears regularly. And that satisfaction is profound. And like I said, I want it for everyone. I want everyone to know what that feels like, because it is really phenomenal.
- [31:47]
Casey Feiney
That is beautiful. Ah, Lauren, thank you so much for your time. This has been such a lovely conversation, and I. I'm so honored that I got to dive into your mind for a little bit, because, like I said, I've been such a huge fan of your work, and I just truly appreciate how thoughtful you've been in what you produce. And even in this conversation, I feel like some of the. Some of the answers you gave have been some of my favorites that I've ever. That I've ever received on this podcast, like, just recently. Really, really thoughtful and yeah, just congratulations. I mean, this is just like you're many people's heroes based off of what you've created. It's really remarkable. So thank you so much. And yeah, gonna very much look forward to the new season of Bob's. Cause it's. I need it. I need it. I need to keep adding it to,
- [32:37]
Loren Bouchard
like, you only have to wait a little less than a year.
- [32:40]
Casey Feiney
I'm ready. I am so ready. No, it's fine. It's fine. Good things come, and that is gonna do it for this episode of Creative Control. As always, make sure you subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to your podcast, and do not be afraid to leave a comment or two, because what it is always nice to hear from you. Creative Control is part of the Fast Company podcast network. Our show is produced and edited by my very, very patient producer, Blake Odom.
- [33:09]
Capital One Narrator
Okay.
- [33:09]
Casey Feiney
With help from Sam Gabauer and Miriam Caparize. Mix and sound design is by Nicholas Torres, and our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Once again, be sure to subscribe to Creative Control on your platform of choice, and I'll see you on the next episode.