Sharon Ramage (2:56)

Well, every employee of course has their KPIs and so the metrics are tracked around their KPIs. And so for example, if you have an attorney that has a billable hour that they need to meet, then we track those numbers. We have a company wide scorecard. Everyone sees everyone's numbers. There's no secrecy, there's no hiding because we want to help someone out if maybe they're a little short or if maybe they're having a hard time meeting their KPIs. And we want transparency into that so everyone can help each other. And the minute we started tracking everything, we grew exponentially.

Sarah Lynch (3:34)

Do you think it was just the encouragement of the fact that tracking was happening and was so transparent?

Sharon Ramage (3:39)

I think from a leadership standpoint is we were paying attention and so we could course correct if we needed to, we could see what was working, what wasn't working. And we track everything. It's not just numbers. It's like how many times has a client been touched in the last three weeks or are there clients that have not had any communication in the last three weeks and that tells the team who they need to reach out to. As a leadership team, we're paying a lot more attention. But then the rest of the office that was not a part of the leadership team, they actually got insight into what everyone was doing.

Sarah Lynch (4:13)

Interesting. Tell me more about your team and what you look for in the people that you bring on board.

Sharon Ramage (4:19)

Well, I'm a big Patrick Lencioni fan and the Ideal Team Player is one of my favorite books. And I want people that are humble, hungry and smart. I want them to be humble. They don't know it all. I heard something today, somebody said you don't want know it alls, you want learn it alls. So I want people that understand that it's okay to make mistakes and to own those mistakes. It doesn't mean you're placing blame on yourself. It just means you're taking ownership so you can actually impact the outcome and the change. So I want people that are humble and I want them to hungry. I want them, they always want to do more, go the extra mile for the client, give a good service for the client. Because we meet with people. It doesn't matter if you're family law, if your contracts law. We're meeting people at their worst. People come to lawyers because they have problems. And so I want people that really want to go the extra mile for those clients. And they are motivated by that and they're hungry. And then I want them to have the people smarts and the team player skills.

Sarah Lynch (5:22)

Thank you for that. You mentioned making mistakes. And you know, we talk to founders all the time here at Inc. And everyone says, you know, there's so many mistakes when you're first starting and growing your business. What was one mistake in your career, Sharon, that you ended up learning something from that you still see the impacts of today?

Sharon Ramage (5:40)

Well, I would say early on. Well, first of all, I've made a lot of them and I don't think it only happens when you're starting. The saying in my office is we don't know what works until we know what doesn't. And so I've made some hiring decisions in the past that were big mistakes. I've put people in positions that it was not fair to put them into that position. They weren't ready for it and not only lost them as a good employee in the area where they were excelling, but then I didn't gain a much needed higher level management position. So I would say it's been hiring decisions that have been and I would take 100% ownership of it and not really, really evaluating whether they were appropriate for the job, whether the job was the right fit for them and they were the right fit.

Sarah Lynch (6:30)

So now how do you think about that evaluation of is this person ready? Are there different characteristics that you're looking at or questions that you'll ask?

Sharon Ramage (6:39)

Well, first of all, if we're hiring for a management position, I'm very, very careful about hiring lawyers to managing other lawyers, although I have an excellent managing attorney. But you can't assume just because someone is good in the subject matter of their field that they are going to actually translate that into managing other people because they are very, very different skill sets. So I want to see is this person a team player? Do they motivate other people or do they demotivate them? And how can they encourage the team? And are they embracing the team's growth? Do they work against us or are they working with us? And then from hiring from the outside, I of course look at are they humble, hungry and smart? I can't tell you the number of times we've gotten to a point in an interview process with somebody and, and we did a job or a skills assessment and it came back showing they weren't a fit. And I had to make this so hard. I've ignored that in the past and have really suffered from it, but we now know it's like, you know what, this is a no go and it's okay. It really does that person a favor. We're not trying to put a square peg into a round hole and we're going to let them go be successful somewhere else. And there are people that have stopped working for me that were in the wrong spot in our office, but they have gone and they've thrived somewhere else.

Sarah Lynch (8:00)

Interesting. Talk to me if you would, Sharon, about marketing and how you mentioned people come to you in their worst moments. How do you market your company as a place where they can come and why they should come to you?

Sharon Ramage (8:14)

Well, the messaging is we're going to be your advocate and you're safe here. Because I do believe that when people are going to an attorney, they need to go to a place where they feel safe and heard we meet new clients all the time. The first person they meet with, interestingly enough, is not a lawyer in our office. It's somebody that has a sales background. It's so they can sit and listen to their story, hear them, let them know that we care and then we are here to make a difference. And so that is once they're in the office. But our marketing is geared towards we want to help you help your family, help yourself in the future and so we want to help you protect your future. So whether we're doing this person to person marketing, whether it's outspeaking engagements or if it's just meeting with people just with different referral partners or if it's our digital marketing, that's the messaging.

Sarah Lynch (9:15)

In your role as a leader at the company, how do you try to embody the values and the culture that you're striving to bring to your entire team?

Sharon Ramage (9:26)

I had something happen not too long ago that really brought this home. Our number one core value in our office is to speak the truth with compassion above all else, whether it's to a client or whether it's to a teammate. And back In August, my 88 year old mother had a heart attack and went into the hospital and they were talking all around her, all of the medical personnel and being a lawyer, I kind of knew what was going on but I was in a daze as well. And things were being said like, well, let's keep her comfortable and do you want this treatment or do you want to be comfortable? And I'd stepped out of the room and as I came back somebody grabbed me. They said, they're taking your mother to icu. And I caught up with a nurse and he told me, well, we're moving her to ICU because the only place we can administer this treatment, this medication, is an icu, and her blood pressure is not compatible with life. And so before they did the procedure, when we got over to the icu, I pulled the ICU doctor out, and I said, what's, you know, is the treatment going to prolong her life or is it going to enhance it and improve it? And it was the former. And he said, how does your mother feel about life support? Because this is life support. And we started talking about it, but I said, wait, she has capacity. She's in there awake. She's talking to people. She knows exactly what's going on. Why don't you go level with her and ask her what she wants? And he said, you're right. And he did the first thing that no other doctor had done in the three days we had been at the hospital. He went in and very compassionately told her she was dying. And he said, I can administer this treatment to you, and it will give you more time, and if you want more time to say your goodbyes, whatever, or I can just keep you comfortable. And she said, well, what happens if that's what you do? He said, within the next two to three hours, you'll fall asleep and you'll pass away. And she opted for a little extra time to say her goodbyes. So the doctor left the room, and they hadn't started the treatment yet. And my husband and I were in the room, my sister and her husband, my daughter, four people from her church, and her pastor. And the pastor began administering last rites, and she got to participate in her last rites. She said the prayers out loud with us. She prayed with us. She asked for us to sing some certain hymns to her and that she sang along with. And it was such a powerful experience. She got to say goodbye on her terms, all because that doctor had the courage to have the hard discussion. And so I went back and I pulled the team together, and I said, hey, guys, you know, I've told y', all, we got to tell the truth with compassion and not. The clients don't always want to hear what we have to say to them, but this is our number one core value. And I told the story about what happened with my mother, and I was like, never hold back on having the hard discussions. Tell the truth, even when it's something the other person doesn't want to hear, because you don't know what gift is on the other side.

Sarah Lynch (12:35)

When we come back, I speak to Sharon about how she stays organized but first, a quick break.

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Sarah Lynch (13:23)

You know, in your role as leader as well, I imagine there's just there's so much to do and that there must be. That weight must just always be on you. I talk to plenty of founders that can totally relate to that as well. How do you prioritize what to get done in a day and also your life as well outside of work?

Sharon Ramage (13:43)

Well, somebody knows the secret. Tell me. Because the joke around our office is I must never sleep. And it's not always work to me. Right. And so I have found that I need to work at home certain days of the week because that's when I can really focus and get some things done. We implement eos, and you've probably heard that from a lot of founders. And so I work off my, my to DOS and my, my checklist, but invariably there are brush fires that happen that have to be put out. I have a great COO that does most of that, but invariably, sometimes it's going to take my assistance. Now, the day that I grind, working in the business is not something that I really feel like is the best use of my time. I need to really work on it. So I try to block out times to work actually on the business, but I'm also open to those. I wake up in the middle of the night and I have a thought. It's like, hey, I gotta at least write it down or gotta go up and do it. You know, one of the two things that is just kind of the hazard of being an entrepreneur. But I think you either have that bone or you don't. And sometimes you just can't ignore that calling. And so it's just be open. Yeah.

Sarah Lynch (14:58)

What are your future hopes and plans for the business and kind of what are the strategies that you're hoping are going to get you there?

Sharon Ramage (15:06)

Well, there are a couple of things. I really want to do things differently in family law, in addition to my regular family Law practice. I have an online divorce service where everything's done completely online. Lower cost to the clients, completely driven by the clients. But on our firm side, I am planning to get rid of the billable hour and lawyers look at me like I have grown horns because everybody says you can't do it, you can't do it. I think we can do it and I think that that is where our business is headed is at least project based billing. If not 100% flat fees. You've got to bill a set amount by the component of the case or what's going on on the case. I think that serves the clients because the clients can go into this and say this is what this is going to cost me. I'm not an open check and I really want to do that and just change the way we practice that way. And I think it helps the team. They're still going to track their time because we need to know what they're doing with their time, how they're working. But it's not the same pressure. They're tracking for a different purpose. And I just want to create an environment for my team for that as well as an option for clients. So we're in the process of rolling that out.

Sarah Lynch (16:23)

I imagine that's a big process.

Sharon Ramage (16:25)

Yes. And we might go backwards a little bit before we go forwards. It might be a couple of steps back. But I do think with technology and with consumers looking for other options, professional services businesses that aren't on top of this are going to run into some issues. We've got to really meet clients where they are.

Sarah Lynch (16:44)

Lastly, Sharon, what advice would you give to another business owner who is growing or wants to grow and want some advice about how to deal with fast growth? The pros that come with it obviously, but also the challenges.

Sharon Ramage (17:01)

Well, strap on and enjoy the ride because it is quite a ride. I always liked roller coasters when I was younger, so I still am on the roller coaster sometimes. But don't limit yourself. I even to this day, I was just telling somebody a couple of days ago, I don't think I'm thinking big enough. I need to think bigger. So don't be afraid to think big. Get away and just like I just keep a notebook and I just. Anything that comes to my mind, I just write it down. Think big. If you think there's a limitation on something you want to do, stop. Because there isn't. And if there wasn't this limit, what could you do? Just think big and big things will come.

Sarah Lynch (17:44)

Now that we're on the think big topic. What was one time towards the beginning of your business where you thought big and it really paid off?

Sharon Ramage (17:50)

You know, I went from being just. It was just me in a paralegal, and I remember the exact place I was when I had this discussion with somebody. I'm like, I think I'd like to maybe hire an associate, have somebody come work for me. And her comment to me was like, well, you got to share the associate with, like, three or four different people because of the cost. You know, it's just going to be too much of a cost. And I'm like, well, that doesn't even make sense. I mean, why? Because I could see it's like, but I want to help my firm, right? And plus, that gives divided loyalties to that associate. They're being pulled by four different masters. And I thought, I don't want to do it that way. So I sat down and I started that process. And then I started working with a coach, and I'm like, you know what? I can grow this. And I just needed to step away and not have everything focused and be dependent upon me. I stopped taking cases on a real consistent basis years ago. I mean, two years ago, I remember announcing to somebody, I said, I only accounted for 4% of the revenue this year. It was really pretty cool because it freed me up to do the planning, to do the building, and to get us to a position where we could go to the next level. Now, sometimes I go back and forth on it, but I think getting out of your own way, not being stuck in the business, and just having the courage to grow that.

Sarah Lynch (19:12)

Courage to grow, where does that come from? Did you always have that or, you know, was that something that just built up over time?

Sharon Ramage (19:20)

You know, I think deep down it was there because my why is to challenge the status quo. I've never been one to just take. If somebody says you can't do it, it's like, well, watch me, you know? And so I think that that is innately in part of me. And I think there are different types of business owners. There are people that own jobs, right? That they go and their jobs, they are an employee of their job. There are business owners, which. That's a little bit different. But then there are entrepreneurs, and the entrepreneur is the one that is not afraid to fail. The entrepreneur is gonna step out there and, you know, make mistakes and embrace them and learn from them and get energized by them. So I think that's kind of just who I am.

Sarah Lynch (20:05)

Sharon, thank you so much for your time and these insights and for your vulnerability and everything.

Sharon Ramage (20:10)

Oh, thank you.

Sarah Lynch (20:11)

It was really, really great. That's all for this episode of youf Next Move. Our producers are Blake Odom and Avery Miles. Editing and sound design by Nick Torres. Executive producer is Josh Christensen. If you haven't already, subscribe to youo Next Move on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, your Next Move is a production of Inc And Capital One Business.