The Art of Hiring—Strategies for Building a Winning Team

Summary

Episode Summary: The Art of Hiring—Strategies for Building a Winning Team

Podcast Title: Your Next Move
Host: Mike Hoffman, Editor-in-Chief of Inc. Magazine
Guests:

• Che Huang: Co-founder of Box
• Brandon Ivan Pena: Founder of 787 Coffee
  Release Date: June 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Your Next Move, Mike Hoffman engages in a deep conversation with two successful entrepreneurs, Che Huang of Box and Brandon Ivan Pena of 787 Coffee. The focus is on the pivotal role of hiring and team building in driving business success. Both founders share their unique approaches, challenges, and lessons learned in cultivating winning teams and robust company cultures.

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Building Company Culture

Box: Culture Born Out of Necessity

Che Huang describes how Box's culture developed organically. Instead of formalizing culture into written rules, the company instilled its values through immersive experiences.

“The culture that we established many years ago when we co-founded the company was really born out of necessity… everyone started at the fulfillment center… seeing the front lines… I think pervaded our culture throughout the 10 years that I ran the company.”
(01:14)

This approach fostered empathy among employees, ensuring that every team member understood the operational challenges and valued each other's contributions.

787 Coffee: Human-Centric and Passion-Driven

Brandon Ivan Pena emphasizes the importance of the human element in 787 Coffee’s culture. From the outset, the focus has been on hiring individuals who are adaptable, social, and passionate about coffee.

“If you are not willing and able to look in the eye, if you're not willing and able to be adaptable and social, then 787 is definitely not a great place for you.”
(02:29)

By prioritizing passion and adaptability over specific skill sets initially, 787 Coffee fosters a dynamic and collaborative environment.

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Scaling the Workforce

Box: From Garage Startup to Public Company

Che Huang recounts Box's rapid growth from a modest team of three in a garage to nearly a thousand employees as the company approached public markets.

“When we were entering the public markets, we were almost a thousand people at that point… the stuff that is not written on the wall was stuff that never evolved because, you know, it's just core to who we were.”
(03:45)

Despite the scale, the foundational culture remained intact, underscoring the importance of core values in sustained growth.

787 Coffee: Community and Vendor Integration

Brandon Ivan Pena discusses 787 Coffee’s expansion to 30 coffee shops across states like Puerto Rico, New York, Texas, and New Jersey, aiming to finish the year with 40 locations.

“We're currently between 300 to 400 and growing… the community is way bigger because we work with a lot of vendors… they're part of the community.”
(04:08)

This holistic view includes not just employees but also vendors and the broader community, ensuring a supportive ecosystem for growth.

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Hiring Strategies and Missteps

Early Days and Learning from Mistakes at Box

Che Huang reflects on early hiring missteps at Box, such as hiring for specific expertise too soon, which hindered flexibility.

“Hiring for specific expertise a little bit too early… you need the Swiss army knives… early on, just hiring someone that would only do one thing… was a misstep.”
(09:22)

These challenges taught Box the importance of versatile team members who can adapt to evolving business needs.

787 Coffee’s Organic Growth and Resilience

Brandon Ivan Pena shares how 787 Coffee's growth was shaped by significant events like Hurricane Maria and the Covid-19 pandemic.

“When every single coffee shop was closing in 2020, we were acquiring coffee shops… we kept true to our DNA of hiring with passion, empathy, love.”
(08:13)

These experiences underscored the need for resilience and proactive hiring to navigate unforeseen challenges.

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Building and Training Leadership

Box: Professionalizing the Management Team

As Box grew, Che Huang identified the necessity of a professional management team to sustain and elevate operations.

“When we were starting to get to 100 employees… needed a management team who can take this to the next level.”
(25:07)

He emphasizes hiring leaders with experience in both small and large companies to balance flexibility with structured processes.

787 Coffee: The Infinity System

Brandon Ivan Pena introduces the “Infinity” system, a unique approach to managing and training employees in small, supportive groups.

“We have only eight people that we look after where part we have each other's back, we train… that's how we've been able to scale.”
(16:09)

This system fosters close-knit teams, direct communication, and continuous leadership development, enabling effective scaling without losing the personal touch.

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Adapting to Growth and Merging Cultures

Box’s Acquisition Challenges

Che Huang discusses the complexities of integrating acquired companies, highlighting the need for adaptability and resilience.

“Merging two cultures wasn’t easy… explaining the mission was really critical.”
(34:18)

Balancing different operational processes while maintaining high standards required strategic communication and flexibility.

787 Coffee’s Strategic Expansion

Brandon Ivan Pena recounts the strategic closure of underperforming shops and the focus on leadership training to support sustainable growth.

“In 2023, we set up a great template for growth… every Tuesday now, we have a strategy meeting to train leaders.”
(26:55)

This strategic pivot ensured that the company’s expansion was backed by strong leadership and clear objectives.

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Return to Office and Remote Work Policies

787 Coffee’s Emphasis on Office Culture

Brandon Ivan Pena advocates for a purposeful office presence, valuing social interactions and measuring productivity by outcomes rather than hours spent in the office.

“It's being productive and giving you a sense of purpose... we order food, we drink coffee, we talk about life.”
(35:37)

Box’s Focus on Meaningful Office Engagement

Che Huang stresses the importance of providing genuine reasons for employees to work in the office beyond perks.

“Provide a reason to be in the office… willingness to connect with other team members or projects giving them that reason.”
(37:35)

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Pay and Reward Philosophy

Box: Competitive Compensation and Beyond

Che Huang believes in offering top pay to attract and retain top talent, alongside non-monetary rewards.

“Top talent in the world command and deserve top pay… pay is not only monetary but could be other kind of rewarding experiences as well.”
(39:15)

787 Coffee: Balancing Pay with Intrinsic Motivation

Brandon Ivan Pena emphasizes that while competitive pay is essential, intrinsic factors like passion and purpose drive long-term employee engagement.

“Pay is important, but it's just a basic need. We have to give them purpose and ownership.”
(39:34)

787 Coffee offers pay 93% higher than competitors, fostering loyalty and motivation through meaningful work and personal growth opportunities.

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Use of AI in Hiring

787 Coffee’s Integration of AI and Technology

Brandon Ivan Pena discusses the use of AI for initial screening processes and the integration of virtual reality for training.

“We use AI to filter questions and resumes… integrating technology, but we still need the human element.”
(41:11)

Box’s Focus on Augmented Reality for Training

Che Huang explores the potential of augmented and extended reality in enhancing training effectiveness.

“Augmented reality and extended reality, it really is profound… retention is like times 3x3 versus any other.”
(42:19)

Both founders acknowledge the transformative potential of AI and AR but maintain that the human element remains irreplaceable.

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Engaging Gen Z

Understanding Gen Z’s Expectations

The founders share their insights on Gen Z workers, highlighting their desire for flexibility, purpose, and authentic engagement.

“Gen Z is digital first, want flexibility and purpose… they know what they want.”
(43:56)

Che Huang notes that Gen Z prefers straightforward communication and clear mission alignment, while Brandon appreciates their readiness and willingness when led by passionate leaders.

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Viewer Questions

1. Fixing the Hiring Process

Brandon Ivan Pena:

“Care for the humans you hire. They're not just numbers.”
(52:43)

Che Huang:

“Spend more time with each other… more time to get to know each other.”
(52:59)

Both emphasize the importance of genuine care and extensive interaction to ensure mutual fit.

2. Adjusting Job Descriptions

Che Huang:

“In the early days, more exceptions… later, it's best for both parties to acknowledge mismatches.”
(53:43)

Maintaining clear role definitions ensures fairness and alignment between job requirements and candidate capabilities.

3. Transitioning to Full-Time Roles

Brandon Ivan Pena:

“Hire based on the four pillars… if they align, move them to full-time.”
(54:35)

Che Huang:

“Assess business need and cultural fit before transitioning.”
(54:17)

Decision to convert roles depends on ongoing evaluation of performance and alignment with company culture.

4. Building Trust with Employees

Brandon Ivan Pena:

“Treat them as coworkers… be a mentor.”
(55:01)

Che Huang:

“Trust yourself and your hiring process… avoid micromanagement.”
(55:23)

Trust is built through respectful treatment and confidence in the hiring decisions, fostering a two-way relationship.

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Conclusion

Mike Hoffman wraps up the episode by highlighting the invaluable insights shared by Che Huang and Brandon Ivan Pena. Emphasizing the importance of tailored hiring strategies, authentic culture-building, and continuous leadership development, the discussion underscores that a winning team is the cornerstone of business success. Hoffman teases the next episode, which will delve into running a technology company in the age of AI.

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Notable Quotes

• Che Huang:
  “The culture that we established… was really born out of necessity.”
  (01:14)

• Brandon Ivan Pena:
  “If you are not willing and able to look in the eye… then 787 is definitely not a great place for you.”
  (02:29)

• Che Huang:
  “Hiring for specific expertise a little bit too early… was a misstep.”
  (09:22)

• Brandon Ivan Pena:
  “We have only eight people that we look after… that's how we've been able to scale.”
  (16:09)

• Che Huang:
  “Top talent in the world command and deserve top pay.”
  (39:15)

• Brandon Ivan Pena:
  “Pay is important, but it's just a basic need… we have to give them purpose and ownership.”
  (39:34)

• Che Huang:
  “Trust yourself that you did a great job in hiring.”
  (55:23)

---

This episode offers a comprehensive look into effective hiring practices and team building from two industry leaders. Whether you're a startup founder or scaling an established company, the strategies and experiences shared by Che Huang and Brandon Ivan Pena provide valuable guidance for building and maintaining a successful team.

Transcript

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

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[Mike Hoffman]

Hi, I'm Mike Hoffman, editor in chief of Inc. And welcome to youo Next Move, produced by Inc. And Capital One Business. We'll ask any entrepreneur about the secret to their success and they'll say it's their company's people. And so today we're joined by two founders who've built great teams and we'll talk about what it takes to do that. First, we have Che Huang, who's the co founder of Box. Welcome, Che.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Thank you.

[Mike Hoffman]

And we have Brandon Ivan Pena, the founder of 787 Coffee. Welcome to you both.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Thank you.

[Mike Hoffman]

Let's talk about building great team and how do you build a culture that supports those teams? Che, let's start with you. I'm sort of curious. You've grown a company. Why don't you tell us what Box did and then talk about how you invented the culture of boxed.

[Che Huang]

Boxed is a wholesaler of consumer packaged goods now based out of Brooklyn where folks from all around the country, if you don't have the means or the patience to go to a warehouse club, you can have all those big bulky items delivered right to your doorstep. The culture that we established many years ago when we co founded the company was really born out of necessity. It was something that we didn't sit down and write on a piece of paper and posted on all the walls. But it became kind of, I guess, endemic within kind of our everyday life and how we carried ourselves. And we instilled it by actually out of necessity, as I mentioned before, by having everyone start their job. No matter what you did at the company, you started at the fulfillment center. And so seeing the front lines and seeing how a box gets packed, knowing what the front line goes through every day and vice versa, I think pervaded our culture throughout the 10 years that I ran the company.

[Mike Hoffman]

That builds empathy, right?

[Che Huang]

Exactly.

[Mike Hoffman]

And Braden, tell us about 787.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

787 Coffee is a from farm to cup coffee experience. We are the engine that powers your next move. It's unlimited source of energy, unlimited source of vibrancy. It is the caffeine humans need to go and make things happen. And we are, we started in Puerto Rico. That's how we started as a coffee farm. We were farmers before we actually became baristas. And coffee shops.

[Che Huang]

Oh, wow.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

So it's been an amazing journey just to be a farmer, understand how coffee actually grows. And it takes three years to grow and then to roasting and then becoming barista. Baristas and then having offices and training. So it's been a whole evolution, vertical integration, something that I absolutely love. And we build the culture through human to human, but really understanding that we need the human element before the skills. If you are not willing and able to look in the eye, if you're not willing and able to be adaptable and social, then 787 is definitely not a great place for you. But if you are someone that is hungry for growth and energy and you want to be a part of a community and bring impact and connection to the nature of what we do, which is coffee. Right. It's energy. That's how we hire, that's how we train, that's how we empower all of our leaders and everyone around 787. So it's been an amazing journey. We bought the farm 2014. And growing, staying excited, staying hungry, staying foolish, as Steve Jobs would say.

[Mike Hoffman]

Yeah. And how many states are you in right now?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

We're hitting 30 coffee shops and quantified to finish the year with 40. We are in Puerto Rico, New York, Texas and New Jersey very soon. Great. Great. Washington, D.C. negotiating there as well.

[Mike Hoffman]

And so organizationally, like, what's the scale of these organizations in terms of like, total workforce and headcount? Let's start with box.

[Che Huang]

As we were entering the public markets, we were almost a thousand people at that point. So that was the scale in which we were when I, when I was there, when we first started, it was just three folks in a garage. So really, those processes in the culture say some things evolved over time, but other things, ironically, the stuff that's not written on the wall was stuff that never evolved because, you know, it's just core to who we were.

[Mike Hoffman]

And Brandon, how about you?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

So we are currently between 3 to 400 and growing. But that's people that actually work. My coworkers. Right. But the community is way bigger because we work with a lot of vendors. We wouldn't be able to survive without our vendors. So even though they don't get paid as payroll, they're part of the community. And then elsewhere, caffeinated humans, because they are our biggest ambassadors. And so we try to be making part of the community. A lot of our efforts internally within the office, within the hub is how do we communicate effectively with our not payroll humans, with our External humans as well. But, yeah, 3, 400 humans right now working for 787.

[Mike Hoffman]

And so when did hiring sort of ramp up for each of you? Like, let's start with box. You know, you had three people in a garage. You're sort of building an idea. But when does it get to a place where you're really thinking about hiring and culture sort of more holistically?

[Che Huang]

Sorry, I was smiling because I'm getting a flashback talking about it sitting in the garage, where the initial month we started the business, we had two days where there was zero orders. And there's 300 million Americans in this country, and no one ordered from us for a few days. And we're sitting there like, is this really going to be a thing? And then we eventually had a really great national press it, and they were talking about us on live tv. And I remember sitting there on the couch, and all the employees of the company, which were like, by that time, four or five of us literally sitting on. On my couch, and we're like, I think this might be good. And then we go out and we check the computer, and it was just like all these orders started to come in. And after that, we had to undrill the garage door. And so, yeah, it was. It was really gnarly for. For a few weeks there in my house. And so I think that's when hiring really began to ramp up. I think my moment was when the first person was hired, and I didn't even really know what their background was or what their story was, but they were in my house in the morning. I was like, amazing. We should begin setting some rules on culture. So that was kind of the flashback I just had.

[Mike Hoffman]

Brian, what about you?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

We didn't start in the garage, but it was fun. It was just exciting from the beginning. I remember driving to the farm and saying, do we really want to get into the coffee business? Because both of us, Sam and myself, co founders, we didn't know anything about coffee or agriculture. He's an airplane pilot. I was in marketing. And we're like, what are we doing, really? Do we really want to do this? And we met. It was just a beautiful place, Marikao, Puerto Rico. Just so nice. And then we said, you know what? Let's do this. We need to have coffee grown in the US Instead of just importing coffee from elsewhere. And we bought the farm without any experience. So we were very lucky to inherit Papo, which was the farmkeeper from the previous owners that had abandoned the farm. But he's like, I'm willing and able to work. I've taken care of the farm for so long. So we based that's our first human that worked with us or we worked for him as well. And then we started traveling the world to understand coffee because we had no knowledge of coffee. So we said, let's go anywhere from Rwanda to Guatemala to understand what is coffee. And then how do we bring value to the States? How do people go to buy a cup of coffee? And a lot of times they put sugar and milk and they don't really care about the origin or. Or the. The specialty coffee. So we said, how are we going to get those humans to actually care that it's grown in the U.S. versus imported from elsewhere, giving jobs to farmers in the U.S. so we started hiring within Marikao. We met with the mayor, and the mayor said, I am happy to give you guys all the help I possibly can if you hire people from Marikao because it's the highest unemployment place in the nation. It was like 73% unemployed in there. They had pharmaceuticals. They left, and there's nothing to do in Marikao. So we're like, we like the challenge. Challenge accepted. Let's start. And that's how we started in 2014, hiring people there, connecting, trying to understand I couldn't be dressed like this. I tried, but it wasn't doing well. So what I realized is getting to know the wives, the neighbors, taking lunch and sitting on the floor with them was the way to connect in the farm. And I was happy to get myself some boots and get ready to plant some trees.

[Mike Hoffman]

When did things start to get busy in terms of onboarding? Not just one new employee or a couple of new employees, but it really started to feel like a really active talent acquisition function, at least for us.

[Che Huang]

It was right after we raised our Series A fundraising round. And so we had initial seed funding, and then we raised, you know, at that time, a pretty sizable Series A fundraising.

[Mike Hoffman]

How much was it?

[Che Huang]

It was, I believe, six and a half million dollars, which now it's like, you know, it's. Given how much the venture industry has grown, it's certainly not the largest Series A these days.

[Mike Hoffman]

A lot of people would take that check.

[Che Huang]

Yeah, totally fair. You know, we were totally happy to do so at that time. We then began to hire in the offices, the team that we need to keep up with the fulfillment center. And I think at that time, it's when the real hiring process really started to formulate in a meaningful way.

[Mike Hoffman]

And did you have missteps?

[Che Huang]

Oh, we have, like, I think for most entrepreneurs, especially ones watching this, you know, I'm not going to sit here and proselytize that we did everything correctly. Like, I think we did a lot of things. We learned a lot of hard lessons along the way. But I think in doing so, you begin to formulate that culture because it becomes part of the DNA of the missteps that you took. And the reasons why the HR manual or the hiring process is a certain way is probably because more the missteps that you took versus the kind of active planning of this is what might happen, at least for a lot of startups when they first start.

[Mike Hoffman]

Well, can I ask what was an early misstep? And you were like, oh, hey, we learned from that.

[Che Huang]

I would say in the very early days, hiring for specific expertise a little bit too early. I think, Brandon, when you were on the farm, you probably just need more Swiss army knives of just folks to be able to do almost everything. No ego. I'm not 100% expert at that, but I can figure it out pretty quickly. And that's what you need in those first few months as a business, now as a business evolved over time, of course you need the domain experts, but really early on, just hiring someone that would only do one thing and that's all they knew and that's all they wanted to do. Too early is also a potential misstep or a misstep in our early days.

[Mike Hoffman]

Hiring for attitude, right? Yeah. So, Brandon, how about you? When did you sort of get to a place where you're like, oh, we're onboarding a lot of people and we have to figure out, like, what this looks like culturally and process wise.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

It's been a really organic process, Mike. There wasn't really a tipping point. It's been very organic growth, if I have to name a time. It was probably through Covid because we had Hurricane Maria in 2017. So we had open already four shops in New York and one in Puerto Rico. When Hurricane Maria happened in 2017, we had to close everything. And we basically, we couldn't pay anyone other than the farm, the farmers there, and Muriel here in New York. Everyone else was basically, we couldn't. So everything was closed. So we were ready. We started opening again. 2018. 2020 happened, and we had already learned how to be ready and be proactive on disasters because of Hurricane Maria. So when every single coffee shop was closing in 2020, we were acquiring coffee shops. So we were growing through Covid. And that's when it was really challenging because we needed people to keep up with our growth through Covid when everyone wanted to go home and rest. And that was an interesting moment for us, but it's been really organic. We've kept true to our DNA of hiring with passion, empathy, love. What do we look for? With time, we've created more structure. With time, we've learned. With time, we've become more of the corporate America, having paper and signing. But we've stayed true to the. To the fact that we still want to work with humans. Right? And we want to work with humans that care and we want to work with humans that actually drink coffee and that we can connect through coffee. And that has been the same mistakes we've made. Many, many, many, many, many. And I'm sure we'll continue. I'm hungry to learning. All the team is hungry to learn some of the mistakes we've made. And I told this to my mother once, whenever you want to give me a gift, make sure you buy an hour with an attorney for me to go and learn. That's the Christmas gift that I want. And that's the big advice I give to any entrepreneur. Get legal advice. Because when you start, you know, you're so passionate about business and you, you guys know you're there, you're 24 hours, you don't care if you don't sleep, if you don't shower, everyone's having fun in these village and you're super dirty because you've been cleaning the floors and it's okay because you're the owner, but when your co workers are there so long and it becomes overtime and you don't know because you're friends and you think you guys are going to be friends forever and you guys are talking about life and your problems and my problems and all of a sudden it's not real. It's. You're still the employer and you're still the human responsible for payroll. And having an attorney to actually guide you through that process has been our biggest learning until now.

[Mike Hoffman]

Do you both have partners? Co founders?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Yes.

[Mike Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Che Huang]

Yes.

[Mike Hoffman]

So I'm curious, like, how did you develop a rapport with your partner or your co founder around people issues? Because sometimes what you' hiring for might not be what they're hiring for or what you think the culture should be is not necessarily immediately what they think the culture should be. So how do you guys come to an alignment on that?

[Che Huang]

The four original co founders of Boxed we're probably as different of people as you can you can ever get in terms of what our interests are in life, especially these days. What's been interesting though was throughout that process, even though we were hiring for different skill sets, those innate tidbits of our culture, how you speak with people, how you respect other people's point of view, even if you don't agree with them, that was non negotiable. But the interesting thing was we never said, hey, these are the non negotiable rules. It just again, having everyone in that same room when the company was first founded, there's kind of that innate trust in that process. And so again, no hiring of folks who were. Sometimes you need to bring your elbows up in a corporate environment, but no super sharp elbows and being team first. I think those were the things that again, we didn't have to say, but always pervaded kind of our conversations in the background.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

For me, he's my life partner too, so it's so cool to go home and actually talk about those things. So what we did is delegated. He's in charge of the farm. That's his project. That's what he does. I don't mess with his team. He knows who he hires, why he terminates working relationships. That's his area, the shop and the growth of 787, that's mine. So he, whenever he goes to a shop and he's not greeted, he'll I'll get a message. The human you have working here is not nice to me. But through delegation and having boundaries that are very clear from day one, we both came from business, from working, from being employees. So we understand that having one boss and not 20 bosses makes a difference. So we never wanted to have someone being bossed by 20, 20 people. We said, that's your area, that's you, this is my area. Or we delegate to the leader of that department and that's it. I don't want to be involved, I don't want to microman. I don't have time, I don't want to. That's not where I'm heading in life. So if we can have clear objectives of who's in charge of what, we'll be very successful and happy and go home and rest.

[Che Huang]

For what it's worth, every time I've been to one of your shops, I've always been greeted.

[Mike Hoffman]

So as your company is scaling, then how do you screen? Right, so you have a no jerks policy. You focus on people with passion and curiosity and empathy. How do you screen to get people who fit those attributes?

[Che Huang]

It's, it's, it's not easy because Again, like at the end of the day, you can't be the first line frontline interviewer of every single person that's applying to your company because that's what you'll do 28 hours a day if you end up doing that.

[Mike Hoffman]

What, at what size company did that stop being you?

[Che Huang]

Geez, probably when we were about 50 people or so, I stopped taking a look at the incoming resumes because again, there's just, you know, luckily I think we were developing a reputation in the market and so it became so voluminous that like it was just difficult to read every resume that was coming through. But even until all the way, until we were a very large company, that last, last interview, I would still try to spend even just five minutes or two minutes before someone gets an offer. And by that time the team has screened for skill set for fit and training other folks how to interview. It was very rare that someone at that stage kind of fell through the cracks or snuck through the process. And so I felt very good that we had built a great system.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Interesting. Okay, so for us, how do we screen? I don't think hiring is hard. I think hiring the right people, the right humans is the challenging part of hiring. So having a clear DNA, having your why super clear for 787 has been fundamental. We are a caffeinated human. We are. That's what we are. Everyone at 787 is caffeinated. We are connectors. We are impacting. We are a part of a very cool community. So we want to work with humans that are aligned with who we are. So having that very clear, having our mantras very clear instead of a mission statement or a vision statement. Mantras that are easy to remember, easy to live by. One of them is we are. Coffee's an excuse. We are memory builders. So when we hire, we want to make sure they align to the memory building of. So we ask them to do random things. And we are very selective on who we hire. One day we were Diego, the head of recruitment, we were doing a research, really basic research on Google and we said, what percentage of humans does Google actually hire? Based on the number of interviews? And they were at 15% out of the people they interviewed. That's how many they hired. I know Harvard goes 1% out of the people that applied to be a part of the student there. So we said, why don't we take it in between? So let's go between 7 and 10% of the people that actually apply. That's who we're hiring. And the Fact that they know this makes them feel exclusive, makes them feel I am selected. I am one of the few, I am a part of growth. And that's how we've been able to filter a lot of trainings. We're huge on communication, we're huge on follow through and we play a very tough psychology game. When they start working at 787, we want them to be afraid of us. We want them to leave now. Don't waste our time, don't waste your time. Life's too short. So we are super tough on them. We make everything seem harder and harder and harder. Because when they go on the field, when they go to the stores, there's really no managers monitoring everything they do. So our only time we really have to play the game is interview training. And the first week of training when they're on the field, once they're there, we basically release and it's up to operations to have one on one meetings on a weekly basis. But if we're tough at the beginning, they're going to go and say horrible things. But that's okay because the humans that actually stay are going to bring a lot of value to our consumers and that's what allows the company to continue to grow.

[Mike Hoffman]

I imagine you developed this philosophy over time. How did it come about?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

By mistakes, by having a high turnover. I was really excited today. I invited Diego to come over, the head of recruitment. And I said, Diego, what is our turn? Turnover. And he said, well, in New York, in a one year span, food and beverage loses 75% of employees. And where are we? 30s. We're in our 30s, so it's huge for us. It's a great accomplishment because we're such a new company, so small. So what do we focus on? We hire based on it's accomplishment.

[Mike Hoffman]

It's also a competitive advantage.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

It is for sure. Thank you. We have four pillars basically that we developed. And how do we develop them? By understanding the problems that we were facing daily. We hire based on four pillars and four pillars only. Coffee. We want to be surrounded by people that drink coffee. We're a coffee company. We're not a sandwich shop, we're not a bagel shop. We are a coffee shop. We want to be surrounded by humans that understand the concept of specialty coffee. Adaptability. It's a coffee shop. Sometimes someone's calling out sick in a place we have to ask you to go cover another shift. We have to move to a different location. Adaptability. 3. Sales. We are a sales company. We are a marketing company that's what we do. And number four, social people come to 787 because they are doing something important in their life. They're going to take a test, they're going to an interview, they're going on a date, they're going on a long day. So they need an espresso, double espresso. We want to be the energy they need. So everything we do, the interview, the training has been developed on simplicity of those four pillars so they can actually succeed in the company. Everyone's amazing humans. There's no evil humans. It's just you might not be the right match for 787.

[Che Huang]

I was going to say that tenure is a competitive advantage, as you said, Mike, you know, especially when we have kind of a physical component to the business. What we found in our fulfillment centers is that there was a direct correlation between how long the average tenured staff had been there for and the efficiency that we saw in the fulfillment center. And I suspect it's the same thing at your shops, that the longer the tenure, the more efficient they are and potentially maybe even higher the NPS score because they know the customers. And so these are all things that are slightly harder to measure in a corporate setting. So if someone's been there for 25 years, how do you measure the exact efficiency? I do believe there is efficiency, but it's really hard to measure. But in a physical environment, with physical work, I think you see a direct numerical correlation to it.

[Mike Hoffman]

You've talked about how your hiring philosophy has evolved over time. How do you then train other folks to do hiring on your behalf? And what are some common missteps or areas of course correction that you see with recruiters, with hiring folks?

[Che Huang]

First, I think when you said about missteps, again, really resonates with me because I think humans are imperfect almost by definition and almost. Therefore, the systems that govern how you select humans to work with are probably imperfect as well and need to kind of evolve over time. For us, probably the biggest misstep that we saw was just trying to hire someone quickly because they needed to get a job done. And so rushing through the process and really saying, I just need someone in that seat. I think that feels good in the short run. But it's such a gamble because oftentimes it doesn't work out because you didn't screen as much as you would have in a normal kind of process. And so maybe short term gain, but long term pain for both parties, both that person that hired the person, but also the person that was hired probably Came in without eyes wide open in terms of what they're getting themselves into.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Amazing question. So we've developed a system called the Infinity where we have the power to impact eight humans at a time. So my Infinity, I work with eight humans and I work for eight humans. And that's why I give my energy. That's my customer, that's who I work for. That's right. Message text. And then those eight humans have their own infinities. And that's where we're able to train because we have only eight people that we look after where part we have each other's back, we train, we have each other meetings weekly. And it's really how we've been able to scale. So the, the recruitment department is part of the administration infinity. And there's a lot of communication there. There's a lot of meetings. And that's how we were able to impact and really scale by bringing that talent and then expanding. Now that we're opening more coffee shops in Texas, we've actually hired someone that starts today as a matter of fact, as the recruiter of Texas, again within an Infinity, a small group where he's supported, taken care of. So his time at 787can bring a lot of value and he can take a lot of value as only through that. I don't believe in big groups. I don't believe in a lot of handbooks because I don't see them work. I don't read them. I've never read a handbook or I never learned a mission statement of any company that I've worked for. So why would we do it at 787? So I think if we have direct communication and WhatsApp group with our own Infinity, that's how we're able to scale and also simplifying processes. Mike, why complicate things? We sell coffee. We need cups and milk and sugar and stairs. That's all we need. We can create all the processes in the world, but ultimately it's a human job. Someone's there for coffee, we have coffee. We want to say hello, we want to say thank you. We want to connect somehow as a human element. And you know, when we have interviews, we have so many humans that come over and say I love coffee. And they're excited and they want to work there. But that's not what we're looking for. We're looking for the consistent best because it's great to be nice to someone you like. But what happens when someone that comes in. I'm going to use Wall street as an example, they're stressed. Our customers are stressed, looking at their phone all the time. They have data metrics, goals to meet, and they walk in and baristas are going to be rude to them because they're not looking at them in the eye. That's not who we want to work with. We want to work with someone that regardless of what the human in front of you is feeling, you become that amazing human. You're still saying hello, because that's our job. I always use Sam as an example. He's a pilot. He's a captain for an airline. And when he greets people, he's not judging the human sitting behind. He has to read the script. Welcome. My name is Altitude and Temperature. And whatever he has to read, it's consistent. So we're looking for that consistency in humans when we hire them and when we train them and anyone around us.

[Mike Hoffman]

Did I hear you say you managed through WhatsApp?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Yes.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's great.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

I love that.

[Mike Hoffman]

So, as a company scales, obviously one of the next things a leader has to think about is building out their management team and hiring for those really key, crucial positions. And I'm curious, like, when did that process happen for each of your companies, and what did you learn from that process?

[Che Huang]

For us, it was probably around three to four years after we were founded. We really needed to professionalize our management team. That Swiss army knives that worked for us the first three, four years were still great and very much needed in pushing the boundaries. But at the same time, the revenue numbers, everything's getting real serious, and we need a management team who can take this to the next level. My learning through that process is that actually big company experience is really great and really vital. What we found actually were some of the best performers. The key elements of their resume was that they had both small company experience and big company experience. Not because of expertise in any particular realm, but because they knew what they were getting themselves into. Because the grass is always greener.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Right?

[Che Huang]

When you're at a big corporate job, you're like, oh, I wish I was at a startup. I could do this or do that. And when you're at a startup, you're like, I wish I had the resources of a big corporate company. But until you've been on both sides of the lawn, you know, it's hard to make a real educated decision. Are you really wanting to be there? And so that's what I found. It's just, you know, folks have both those experiences, then know exactly what they're getting themselves into and you mentioned before.

[Mike Hoffman]

That you've, in the early days, maybe hired some skill sets that were too sophisticated for what you needed at that time. So when did it become clear that, like, oh, we do need a management team and we do need to find these folks at this level.

[Che Huang]

I don't know if it's a magic number or so, but right around when we were starting to get to 100 employees, I think the systems or the lack of systems that got us there were starting to really kind of be outdated. And so I think that's when the moment for me was like, okay, we really need folks who have taken something from 100 to a thousand people and revenues wise and beyond. So for me, that was probably the moment if I could nail, like, exactly. A nice, clean kind of area or time. It was right around that.

[Mike Hoffman]

Mark and Brandon, when did the process start for you?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

So we grew so much from 2020 to, like 2023, 8, 900%, which is actually what got us to the 5020 23, we had a time where we said, what are we doing here? We grew so much. And even though we had the beautiful humans working and believing them, we had to close some shops. We closed, I believe, four or five coffee shops. And we had to close because they were not giving energy to the system. They were actually sucking energy from the system. And as we're closing, I'm questioning myself, is this leadership really working? Is this infinity system really working? And that's when we said, why don't we focus on developing leaders? So 2023 and training and developing and putting more goals on every single human. Instead of managing time, we were focused more on goals and objectives. It was 2023, and then we were ready. We set up a great template, a great foundation for growth, which is what we're 2024, perfect year. And now 2025 heading into an amazing year as well, and growing and expanding into more experiences because of of the training and the development, the restructure we did in 2023 and all the training. Every Tuesday now, we have a strategy meeting where all we do is train leaders on how to overcome challenges, on how to train better leaders. We call it lead the leader. So, yeah, 2023 is the year that really shaped everything.

[Mike Hoffman]

What's an example of a topic that you would have in that meeting yesterday?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

We had our meeting on the idea of only the paranoid survive, which is something Mark Zuckerberg really believed in, and Steve Jobs as well, of how to stay aware, how to stay innovative, how to see threats before they Actually come. So we talked. For example, 787 is building more experiences. Whenever we get the opportunity to go to the farm, we connect with nature, right? It really takes us to why do we sell coffee? We see the coffee trees, we see animals, we see the coqui from Puerto Rico. We see the. It's nature. You're in the farm, you're where the coffee is born. So anyone that gets the chance to go really reconnected, saying, oh, my gosh, my vision completely changed. So then it really got me to thinking, why did we start bringing that experience into one coffee shop in every city? So El Paso is experiencing something. We call it a petting zoo, where we have a pony, we have sheep, we have chickens, we have rabbits. So now you're drinking coffee in the backyard with all these animals around. We brought. And the idea is to bring energy from the farm connection, nature gifts of earth to the experience so only the paranoid survive. Anyone can open a coffee shop. Anyone can sell a coquito latte. But not everyone has the experience. We have many years since 2014 with Animals Living. How do they live? What do they need? Are they good with children? Are they not good with children? What's the liability to create an experience? So giving the other whys to the leaders, that's what happened in the previous meeting. They get to see and believe, and then they go to El Paso and they get to take photos with the pony or get to name the pony, and it becomes an experience more than just a coffee shop. It's memory making.

[Che Huang]

That really resonates with me, because I think almost by definition, founders are just paranoid, anxious folks. So I'm smiling because sometimes in the ecosystem, there's entrepreneur dinners or founder dinners or. Or lunches, and you walk into the room and it's just like, oh, suddenly feel. There's like you can cut the anxiety with a knife here. And you walk in, you're like, oh, it's a founder dinner. And so everyone's just always so paranoid. But like you said, it's necessary because in those early days, you know, you're like a fledgling company, and you have to be paranoid about everything around you, or else you won't survive.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Right? And we learned from leadership. Yesterday we spoke about Indra. She used to be the CEO of Pepsi for 12 years. And we learned her leadership style, how she was raised and born in India, and then she got an MBA from Yale, and how she wanted to bring diversity into the system. By the time she left, 50% of leadership at Pepsi were female. How she Bought Lace and Doritos and Gatorade and she bought all these companies to bring healthy elements outside of the soda industry, buying Tropicana. And so we learn from different leaders so we can apply that methodology and those insights based on our team because we also want to push them to greatness. If we are not pushing our leaders to grow, we are failing as a company. I really want to be able to work with humans that are super smart. I want to be able to have conversations that bring value, not just on resumes and skills on how hungry. My first job was at McDonald's. I've been the employee. I want to be able to have future CEOs from 787 go and build amazing companies and then say I started there like I was there. And this human, I might hate him because he pushes me every single day, but that's okay. I'm not here to be liked. I'm here to push you to greatness, to develop amazing humans with ethics, with value, with passion and with growth. With hungry to grow.

[Che Huang]

Actually PepsiCo was in investor Inbox back in the day and Indra led that deal. And seeing her in closed door meetings, what she preaches, she definitely practices magic. And you can imagine even making an investment in us when we were still a pretty small company took a lot of gumption and it took a lot of willingness to shake things up. And so a wonderful leader.

[Mike Hoffman]

Now Chae, I'm curious. You took box public through a spac, right? And as you're moving toward going public, I imagine that there are a whole host of new hiring and people issues that kind of arise and thinking about everything from policies to making sure that like certain functions are shored up. What was that experience like?

[Che Huang]

It was definitely a learning experience. It's yet another challenge as an entrepreneur. So you go from a small company to a medium sized company to a larger company and then eventually one where you're a public company company and your shareholders you just don't know on a first name basis anymore. As a private company, I knew our entire cap table and I could call everyone almost any time of day. When you're public, you just cannot do that. And so yet another milestone to take a look at the systems and kind of what got you there. Is it going to be sufficient for this next process where there is increased scrutiny? I think was my biggest learning moment there. It also helped that I had served on other public boards as well. So knowing what to expect, knowing how to structure a good board, all those things I think were really crucial in that learning process. But I'm still learning. And so I'll never stop learning as an entrepreneur. But it certainly was yet another milestone and another challenge for the lucky entrepreneurs or the unlucky entrepreneurs that eventually go public.

[Mike Hoffman]

And you also acquired a company kind.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Of in that moment.

[Mike Hoffman]

And I'm curious, what was it like? That's, in a way, hiring a whole new culture. How did that merging of two cultures go?

[Che Huang]

It wasn't easy because the same processes that you grew within your company, the company that you're acquiring also had the same processes, and they grew from a different perspective. And you kind of have to make sure that you become one big happy team, or at least one that's motivated to get the same things done. And sometimes it's different because their playbook is different from your playbook. Their culture code oftentimes maybe not fundamentally different, but there's different tweaks to how you do things. And so going there, explaining the mission, explaining why we're doing this, was really critical. Having bought companies, having been bought, you know, it's still a learning process. And I would say adaptability and resilience are two keys that I've learned that are probably most important in that process.

[Mike Hoffman]

Can you share one example of like, oh, their culture is like this, and my culture is like that for many of these acquisitions, for sure.

[Che Huang]

I mean, when you walked into our fulfillment centers, they were fully automated. I mean, we built our own robotics in those fulfillment centers. We like to joke, you can eat off the floors, it's like that, clean. We like to say, if anyone walks into a fulfillment center, they should be proud to have bought food from there. Even though we sell packaged foods, they should still be very proud of all the standards. As if we had fresh foods. Not that the company that we bought didn't have those same standards, but where things are put away to enable other efficiency and enable robotics to work well, when you're trying to pick something and get an order out the door in less than 2, 3 minutes because it needs to be on someone's doorstep in 25 or 30 minutes, there's different processes and kind of melding those two processes and saying, why do they do it that way? And at first glance, it's like, can you automate that process? And why do they do it certain way? And realizing the reason why they did it was an evolution of them getting the job done and respecting that and tweaking it, but not wholesale. Just like throwing out the playbook, I think, was a real learning experience for me.

[Mike Hoffman]

So another Question that's big in hiring right now is return to office and return to work policies. And I'm sort of curious, what has been your experience in terms of hiring folks? Obviously hiring folks for 787, they expect to be in the coffee shop, but what else have you seen?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

I love working from an office. I think it allows you to dress nicely. It's a state of mind. I see people going to the gym, working out, walking. It's more than just going to the office. It's a whole social element. I absolutely love working from the office. It gives me a purpose. Our co workers as well. What I see really as the tipping point for labor today is not being so micromanagers on time. Give your team projects, give your team goals, and then they can work whenever they want. Be in the office longer, shorter, it's up to you. There's someone very productive that goes there and spends all the time and it's extremely focused. And maybe they leave early. And there's someone that loves to be a social butterfly and talks to everyone all the time and has time to learn the gossip from everyone in the office and then they can stay longer. But we measure based on objectives, based on what value are you bringing to the team? Are you really bringing value to the infinity or are you just sucking energy from everyone there? So it's not being in the office. It's being productive and giving you a sense of purpose. We order food, we drink coffee, we talk about life, and that's what, what really keeps us closed and united. And that's why we're so loyal to each other. So I love it.

[Che Huang]

I think for return to office, give them a reason to be in the office outside of just free pizza and free snacks and free food. You know, we talked during this entire show about hiring the best and how do you screen for the best? How do you screen for really great fits and really smart folks? I see oftentimes a pitfall that, that managers and company owners fall into is that you hire all these great people and then you end up potentially treating them like robots once they show up. They're smart, sentient beings. And so if they have a reason to be in the office, it's a lot better for them to be in the office. And again, not just pizza, but actually whether it's willingness to connect with other team members or whether it's a project giving them that reason to be in the office. I know it sounds super obvious, but oftentimes it's overlooked. Great.

[Mike Hoffman]

And Brandon, you've moved into New Geographies. As you move into new geographies, what have you seen that might be difference or variation in the hiring process?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Sure. Very interesting, Mike. I've learned so much. It's so cool when you work with a company that is wanting to adapt to the local community that includes labor. Puerto Rico's completely different than New York. And now that we've gone into Texas, completely different New York. It's more of a fashion vibrant. I'm a model, I'm here for singing. I'm a fashion designer. A lot of artists. So working in the food and beverage industry at a coffee shop, they take lots of pride, but they're not thinking of staying there long term. It's where we see the shortest loyalty from baristas, particularly frontline. But Texas, for example, is completely different. Texas, every barista that starts, they're ready to make a career. They're looking for a career, they're looking to grow with the company. So it's been really interesting to see how we basically don't have the need to do a lot of recruitment other than new markets and. And new stores, because people stay there and they want to stay there for long. As long as you give them great competitive pay and the reason to stay, motivation drive, they'll stay. Puerto Rico, same thing. Puerto Rico is a place where they enjoy freedom. They enjoy party and reggaeton and the beach. So tell me when I work and I'll be there. But don't bother me after my hours. I want to go with my family. My Sundays with family are probably blessed. Don't touch me. So understanding every one of those markets has been crucial for the success of being able to keep a very proactive and intense labor force.

[Mike Hoffman]

You mentioned pay, and I'm curious. Pay, obviously is a big part of hiring. What have you learned or how has your philosophy of pay and pay scales changed, if at all over time?

[Che Huang]

The top talent in the world command and deserve top pay. And it's really hard to get top folks if you're not paying at the top of the scale. And. But pay, it's not only, I guess, monetary remuneration, but it could be other kind of rewarding experiences as well. But really, if you want the greatest people, they have choices and you got to fulfill those choices.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

I believe pay is a fundamental need. We have to pay for rent, but I don't think we work for money. I really don't believe humans have that need. We work for motivation and for passion and drive. And when you give your team value, when you give your team purpose, when you give your team ownership to be something huge within the company. Pay. Yes, we have to pay. Competitive, I believe. Indeed. Name 787. 93%. Best paid coffee shops in the city, which to us it's great. We're not the big green mermaid and we're still paying 93% higher than everyone else. But that's not the reason they stay. They stay because they know their metrics and they're competing against themselves. So they know. So an example would be the average sale. How much do they spend? Every human spends every time they come. And we quantify that with every barista. And they're challenging themselves more than how much am I making, am I keeping up with my promise, am I pushing myself? And I think that's what allows us to grow. Yes, pay is important, but I don't think we live for pay. It's just a basic need. We have to pay rent and buy food, but if we know there's a map for us to. To grow and continue to meet people. For example, today we have Sebastian. He's a district leader. He won district leader of the month and he was invited to come to INC Magazine. So he's seeing new things. His vision is opening up. Is he really thinking right now, how much am I making or versus how much am I learning? And I think that's what motivates people.

[Mike Hoffman]

It's intrinsic versus extrinsic rewards. Yeah. Let's do a lightning round. Brandon, we'll start with you. So a big topic in hiring right now is the use of AI. Does your company use AI for hiring or for screening? And how have you found it?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

I love AI. I believe it's a great resource. I think it's a great tool. I still believe because of the industry that we're in, we need the human element. We use AI to filter questions. We use AI to filter even resumes. But not really. Not yet. However, we use technology a lot when it comes to hiring and training. We are in the process of a beta test right now with, with training, a better process where we're bringing the Vision Pro as a training resource where now they're going to be able to visit the coffee farm before they actually head to the coffee shop. So they've been through AI, I guess, virtual reality to the farm where they actually make coffee through an app that we're trying to develop right now where they actually make coffee there. So integration of technology. Yes. But we still need the element of human. This is the passion that AI is not going to be able to Control and it's only the way we're looking at each other. It really matters.

[Che Huang]

I love that you mentioned augmented reality because that's really kind of what I'm focused on these days with the World Economic Forum. So augmented reality and extended reality, it really is profound. Kind of how far we've come over the last 24 months.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Even Google shares some data. I think that when you live the experience in a training environment, your retention or your memory is like times 3x3 versus any other.

[Che Huang]

The irony is that it's also because I feel like a lot of times you're not distracted. So it's one of those moments in modern times where you don't have your phone because you have this thing on your face. You're just fully kind of immersed in this experience. So I could totally see how it could be so game changing for training. But AI, I mean also it's profound. Like having lived through the kind of the tail end of the first.com boom, having lived through the mobile kind of shift and then now with AI, it's really amazing. And I would say the craziest thing that I read and what highlights how early we are still in AI is that one of the planes during World War II that was often used was a Spitfire rotary plane. It's like this when you look at it, it's like a classic plane. And then one of the most advanced kind of commercial jetliners was the Concorde. Between the first test flight of the Spitfire to the Concorde was only 30 something years. And so it's unfathomable what is going to happen in the next 30 years with AI. Considering with the latest kind of iteration of large language models, we're probably only in year two or three of that 30 year journey. So even if AI isn't touching your current hiring processes, it's inevitable that it will. So really thinking about how to meld it into a way that works with your culture I think is really important.

[Mike Hoffman]

Another big topic in hiring right now is Gen Z and what do Gen Z workers who are entering the world workforce want? What have you found?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

I love them. They're the smartest, they are ready, they are willing as long as they have a smart leader that gives them purpose and explains the why.

[Che Huang]

I think Gen Z just wants to get straight to it. There's so many distractions potentially for them that you just have to get right to it, explain what the mission is and send them on the task.

[Mike Hoffman]

What's your favorite hiring question?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

If I could grant you a wish. What would it be? And why?

[Che Huang]

Pick any topic, a du jour of technology and say, when will there be over 75% adoption of that technology throughout the developed world?

[Mike Hoffman]

What is an approach that someone, a job candidate who you didn't know, made to you via LinkedIn or in person or however they made it that was surprisingly effective and worked.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Going to a coffee shop, buying coffee, living the experience and then recording a video and sending it to us. Oh, wow.

[Che Huang]

One of the most profound employees that we've ever had. He was overqualified for the job, but started off as a boxloader just to get his foot in the door. And so she's just taking that entry level job and working their way up.

[Mike Hoffman]

Amazing. So obviously the name of the show is your next move, and I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you that. So, for Brandon, for 787-coffee, what's your next move?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Our next move is to open more coffee shops. Impact more people, hire amazing humans, grow into the hospitality more and more, impact lives. That's what we are all about.

[Mike Hoffman]

And Che, you're at the World Economic Forum now. What's your next move?

[Che Huang]

Just continuing to build. It's just such an amazing time given AI. I often think like, geez, I wish I was born a little bit earlier to take advantage of the first dot com boom. But I mean, we're in that AI boom now and so leveraging those tools to build whatever for the public good or for any particular good, I think it's just an amazing time. So continuing to build.

[Mike Hoffman]

Yeah, sounds like another startup. Maybe in your future.

[Che Huang]

Maybe.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Yeah.

[Mike Hoffman]

Yeah. Okay, Brandon, thanks so much and we'll continue this conversation in just a minute.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

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[Che Huang]

All.

[Mike Hoffman]

Right, now let's welcome Ami Videk, VP and head of Business cards and payments credit card segment at Capital One. Thanks for joining us today, Ami.

[Ami Videk]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Mike Hoffman]

Now, why should companies be proactive about talent sourcing rather than waiting for open positions to arise?

[Ami Videk]

Well, being proactive about Recruiting, developing and nurturing talent helps companies have a range of qualified candidates before a position becomes vacant. This gives them options. You can reduce the time to hire and minimize productivity gaps when roles open up, strengthen the employer brand and attract top talent consistently. And it also allows for more thoughtful strategic hiring instead of rushed decision making.

[Mike Hoffman]

So when businesses think about hiring, often the instinct is to look outward for new talent. But what are the benefits of looking internally at employees who are already part of the team?

[Ami Videk]

Well, companies spend a lot of time and resources helping employees develop their skills. These employees can make excellent candidates for new roles. They're already versed in the company's culture and goals. You also have a good sense of the potential of these candidates and their aptitude for growth. And creating opportunities for career progression within the organization can also boost your employee retention.

[Mike Hoffman]

And beyond filling open roles, how can founders create meaningful development opportunities for their employees to grow within the organization?

[Ami Videk]

You could make use of mentorship and coaching programs where seasoned employees can help other employees grow and learn. You could offer stretch assignments that help team members learn new skills and grow into roles that have greater responsibility and require to different skill sets.

[Mike Hoffman]

And companies that invest in their employees growth often see long term benefits from retention to stronger leadership pipelines. How can leaders build a brand that's known for investing in employee development? And why does that matter for hiring and business success?

[Ami Videk]

Well, building a brand known for investing in employee development requires keeping a people first focus. Keep in touch with your employees to understand what they need to develop and thrive in their jobs. Help them keep their skills current by investing in these training and development resources. Establish two way communication with employees through feedback, surveys, internal communication, and interaction with managers to make sure that they understand the resources that are available to them. This might seem like a lot of work, but the payoffs are real. Research has shown that employees will stay longer at companies that invest in their development, so companies with strong learning and leadership development cultures are more likely to innovate and often outperform their competitors.

[Mike Hoffman]

Ami, thanks for being with us today.

[Ami Videk]

Thanks for having me Mike.

[Mike Hoffman]

As Gen Z heads to work, they're bringing new perspectives and new experiences with them. Inc. Zone Sarah lynch explains how to update your hiring process to speak to the next generation.

[Sarah Lynch]

Thanks Mike. Gen Z is taking over the workplace News alert. I'm a Gen Z er and for my generation it's been a pretty rocky ride so far. Roughly 60% of companies have cut Gen Z Gen Z employees they hired in 2024. Many employers see them as unprofessional, lacking in motivation and too quick to walk away. So how should you approach hiring this generation and keep them engaged? So what is Gen Z looking for in a job? It's not just a paycheck. They want flexibility, purpose and workplaces prioritizing mental health. Raised in the digital age, they prefer quick text based communication that gets to the point 21% of Gen Z job seekers want hybrid options and a whopping 72% have left or considered leaving a job that didn't offer it. They know what they want. Whether companies are ready to meet them is another story. So you're interviewing a Gen Z applicant. Do you start with the salary, the work life balance, or just hand them the WI fi password and see what happens? Here are some ways you can adjust your hiring process to make sure you're attracting the best people and setting clear expectations so both you and your new hire know it's the right fit from day one. First, make sure your hiring process isn't stuck in the stone Age. Gen Z is digital first, so meet them where they are. Use virtual interviews, online assessments, and if your application feels like solving a Rubik's Cube, fix it. Move beyond rigid Q and A and foster open dialogue. Let them ask questions, share perspectives and discuss what matters to them. This will give you a deeper insight into their aspirations and work style. Make company values a key part of the discussion. Lastly, don't wait until until a follow up email to provide feedback. Offering real time insights keeps the process transparent and engaging, helping candidates understand expectations while demonstrating a culture of open communication. When it comes to job offers, be upfront salary, work life balance and job responsibilities are top priorities for Gen Z. But onboarding doesn't stop at a warm welcome, a new client computer and directions to the nearest $18 salad spot. To keep Gen Z engaged and committed, companies need to go beyond the basics first. Invest in their future. Clear career paths. Mentorship and skill building opportunities matter and regular workshops and training keep them engaged and integrated into teams. Be authentic. Gen Z can spot a lack of authenticity a mile away. If your company values don't match your actions, they'll notice. Give feedback. Annual reviews won't cut it. Gen Z expects real time feedback and public recognition. The reality is that the workplace is evolving. Employers must rethink old structures and Gen Z must develop the skills to navigate them. Success depends on both sides adapting, finding a middle ground, a sweet spot where both sides win. Back to you Mike.

[Mike Hoffman]

Thank you Sarah. And this season we want to give our audience access to founders like our guests today. So here are some Viewer questions. And the first is a lot of folks feel like the hiring process can be broken. What's one way that you think the hiring process could be fixed?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Care for the humans you hire. They're not just numbers. They are the humans representing your vision. They are the humans that are taking time from their family and their own dreams to allow you to grow. But if you don't care, they won't care. So care.

[Che Huang]

Yeah, dovetailing off that. Just a corollary to caring. Spending the time I wish just hiring processes would take not a bit longer, but both sides would spend more time with each other. Because when at the end of the day, when you divide out the math, you're going to spend most of your waking hours with these folks and vice versa. And so is there a real fit? It's hard to tell after just a few short meetings. And so I wish almost the process would be, would offer more time to get to know each other on both sides.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's great. So this one's a fun one about job description. So sometimes you have a job description and then you have a candidate pool and the candidate that you're sort of moving toward is different from the job description or you know, their skills are different. So when and how do you think about adjusting a job description to meet a candidate?

[Che Huang]

I think in the early days you might find more exceptions when you need that Swiss army knife. But later on when you're looking for a particular role, it's unfair to the folks trying to fill that seat. It's also unfair to the person that's going to fill that seat if the job they're looking for is not exactly what they can do or what they're willing to do. So it's a tough call, but it's probably best for both parties to say, hey, this isn't the exact job for you.

[Mike Hoffman]

Most growing companies use a collection of temps, part timers, freelancers, contractors to fill various needs. At what point do you decide that someone should be sort of graduated to a full time role?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

If we go back to my case, 787, we hire based on the four pillars. When someone comes up to me and says I want to make them into a full time because I like them a lot. Okay, are they good in coffee? Adaptable sales, social media? If the majority is yes, then let's move them into a full time position.

[Che Huang]

I think it's the same process or the same process that you thought about when you first hired that person. Business need, culture, fit. And so when it's time for them to move potentially to full time. Is there still a business need? Is there a cultural fit?

[Mike Hoffman]

Okay. And trust is obviously something that's so important. So how do you sort of build trust with an employee sort of in the early days, soon after hire, when you're onboarding them and how do you sort of make that a two way street?

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Oof. That's a good one.

[Che Huang]

It's a really good one.

[Brandon Ivan Pena]

Yeah. For one, I don't call them employees. They're my co workers. When you are onboarded, you sign everything we need. You sign and we tell you what your job is moving forward. It's all about trust. I want to be a mentor to someone, but that someone has to be willing and able to be there and be with a great attitude and with the enthusiasm to life. Right.

[Che Huang]

You know, I've spoken a lot about micromanagement as well as trust. So this is a topic that I'm very passionate about. Here's a bit of a hot take. How do you trust that team member, that new employees? Actually, probably the wrong question. It's do you trust yourself? Meaning that you put them through the wringer, you created these processes in which they graduated from that kind of initial obstacle course of getting hired. Do you trust yourself that you did a great job in hiring that person and oftentimes we don't trust ourselves enough and that we begin to micromanage them and so bit of a spicy take, but I think I've learned the hard way over time.

[Mike Hoffman]

Che Hwang, co founder of Box and Brandon Yvonne Pena, founder of 787 Coffee, thanks so much for being here today.

[Che Huang]

Thanks for having us.

[Mike Hoffman]

And we hope today's conversation inspires you to tailor your hiring to your company's goals and build the team that will help you achieve them. Tune in next time for more industry leaders, breakthrough businesses, and the strategies you need to make your next move. Join us next time when we'll dig into another hot topic for business owners running a technology company in the age of AI. I'm Mike Hoffman, editor in chief of Inc. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time.