Winning in the Attention Economy

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Winning in the Attention Economy"

Podcast: Your Next Move
Host: Mike Hoffman, Inc. Magazine
Date: March 10, 2026
Guests: Gary Vaynerchuk (VaynerX/VaynerMedia), Alison Ellsworth (Poppy)
Special Guests: Rita McGrath, April Arnold

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Episode Overview

This episode explores what it means for companies to win in today’s "attention economy," particularly through social media. Host Mike Hoffman interviews two digital marketing trailblazers: Gary Vaynerchuk (“Gary Vee”), whose agencies and personal brand have set new standards in the field, and Alison Ellsworth, who led modern soda startup Poppy to viral success and a $1.95 billion PepsiCo acquisition. They discuss content strategy, founder-led branding, the evolving social platform landscape, managing virality, community-building, and the increasing role of AI in marketing. Expert commentary comes from Rita McGrath (Columbia Business School) and April Arnold (Capital One).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining the Attention Economy

(01:29–03:50)

• Alison Ellsworth:

  • The attention economy centers on founders being the authentic "face" of their company. Sharing unfiltered, candid moments generates free, impactful marketing.
  • “People are sick of the high gloss… Founder-led company—I don't think it's been done enough. It's the real conversation that's interesting.” (01:46)

• Gary Vaynerchuk:

  • Attention is the core asset for brands, companies, even politicians. There are many ways to win, but maximizing relevant attention is fundamental.
  • “How can you possibly change someone's mind, sell something, unless someone actually hears it?... I think a lot of people are overpaying to try to get attention. There’s a lot of moves… to get attention for very little.” (02:39–03:50)

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Undervalued and Overvalued Channels

(03:53–05:05)

• Gary:
  • Social media remains underpriced relative to TV and Internet banner ads.
  • Live social shopping, long-tail creators, live streaming (Twitch, Kick) are emerging opportunities.
  • Investing in Super Bowl ads can be underpriced; but regular TV ads and banner ads are overpriced.
  • “It’s a constant moving target.” (03:53–05:05)

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Building Viral Brands & Founder-Led Storytelling

(05:19–09:43)

• Alison:

  • She had no presence on social before Poppy; her journey began sharing the brand’s story on TikTok for fun, leading to massive virality and $100K overnight sales.
  • “I had the ability to just like, not care. And I think a lot of people struggle with that… I wanted to share my story to TikTok... What worked was telling my story. I hit post, and woke up to a million views.” (05:36–06:40)
  • Success is often about authentic community-building, not chasing pure ROI or virality metrics.

• Further strategies:

  • Amplify successful organic content with paid dollars for maximum reach. Repost high-performing content with tweaks—embarrassment is an enemy to be overcome.
  • “Post the same stuff you posted a month ago, nobody cares. Just imagine, singers sing the same song for 20 years. Greatest hits!” (07:44)

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The Conversion Funnel & Creative’s Role in Sales

(08:54–10:54)

• Gary:
  • Viral reach doesn’t guarantee sales—conversion depends on product quality, pricing, and frictionless buying (e.g., buying Poppy on Amazon Prime).
  • “People are interested. The reason people don’t see sales... is because their product might not be that interesting... There’s marketing, then there are so many other parts of business.” (08:54)

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Organic vs. Paid: The Modern Playbook

(11:18–14:21)

• Gary & Alison:
  • B2B brands can also win by being present and relevant—platform choice matters (e.g., LinkedIn for agency business).
  • Following and engagement metrics are declining in importance—now we’re in “interest media,” not “social media.”
  • “I only look at one metric: views achieved organically.” (Gary, 14:21)

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Platform as Website & Evolving Content

(17:43–19:48)

• Alison:

  • Instagram has become the de facto website for many brands—a curated storefront.
  • Brands must keep adapting social strategies to match shifting trends, audience behaviors, and platform relevance.
  • “Most people just go to your Instagram. It is our website. But we’re always monitoring trends and switching—people get too comfortable.” (17:52–19:48)

• Gary:

  • Facebook Blue (core Facebook) is unexpectedly regaining young adult attention via groups and Marketplace—a ripe, low-competition ad environment.
  • “It’s created an opportunity… more 20- to 30-year-olds… yet fewer brands trying to get to them there… You have to stay on top of platforms daily.” (19:49–21:20)

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Chasing Trends vs. Consistency

(21:20–24:21)

• Alison:

  • Algorithms and platform formats trend cyclically—what works now might not in three weeks. Brands must constantly experiment and react.
  • “Carousels worked three months ago, maybe not now, but in three weeks, let’s test again!” (21:37)

• Gary:

  • Brand managers often resist trend participation due to old-school “staying on brand” doctrine.
  • “Brands are obsessed with academia from the ‘90s... Founders are beating you because they’re playing a different game: relevance, relevance, relevance.” (22:41)

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Team Culture & Social-First DNA

(25:04–26:17)

• Alison:

  • Embedding “social-first” culture at Poppy involved hiring young, involving the whole company in content, and maintaining grassroots energy despite new hires.
  • “It’s a job. You need a team—editors, copywriters, designers—you can’t just hire a kid and ‘go viral’.” (25:04)

• Gary:

  • VaynerMedia built around religion of social from day one. Client resistance lasted for a decade.
  • “Not one client wanted what we were selling for ten years... It continues to be misunderstood.” (26:57)

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Investing in Social: How Much Is Enough?

(27:45–29:17)

• Gary:
  • Every large company should spend at least 20% of their entire marketing budget on organic social creative. Most big brands drastically underinvest.
  • “Otherwise, we will continue to see more poppies go from zero to billions while the big companies putz around and say what’s happening?” (00:18, 27:45)

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Investors & Founder Branding

(30:57–32:36)

• Alison:

  • Investors at Poppy became champions of the founder-as-brand model as they saw returns and authentic community growth.
  • “At the end, it worked and they weren’t scared. We have community, not customers. It wasn’t my ego.” (31:03)

• On reluctant founders:

  • Founder-led doesn’t fit every business—but embarrassment/fear is the No. 1 roadblock. “You just have to get over it. If you’re not doing it, your competitors probably are—and they’ll win.” (33:37)

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AI: Necessity, Not Differentiator

(34:10–37:52)

• Gary:

  • AI is as fundamental as electricity or the computer; soon every business function will use it by default.
  • “AI is not taking your job. A human using AI is taking your job. And you can use it too.” (37:52)

• Alison:

  • AI isn’t some distant, scary ‘other’—everyone's already using it (e.g., filters, algorithms). “We don’t have meetings about how do we use AI.” (37:09)

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Community as the Core Asset

(39:01–41:09)

• Alison:

  • Keeping customer engagement in-house (not outsourced agencies) builds loyal community, not just transactional customers.
  • “We invest to have three girls, full time, 24/7, replying to every comment. We own those relationships. It’s our most important asset.” (39:56)

• Gary:

  • His early personal brand was built strictly via hyper-engagement with the audience. Every DM, comment, tweet was answered. “It’s the lowest hanging fruit.” (41:09)

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Hyperlocal Paid Media (for Small Business Owners)

(42:57–45:01)

• Gary:
  • Ultra-narrow ad targeting (3–5 mile radius) is transforming brick-and-mortar:
  • “It is scary how effective 5 mile radius to your store... Outperforming direct mail. It’s transformed my father’s wine store.” (43:17)

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Scaling & Brand Voice Evolution

(54:36–55:47)

• Gary:

  • Social teams need accountability for organic reach and creativity. Make space for staff to bring themselves to the table.

• Alison:

  • “Confidence”—Give the team posting authority to move at culture’s speed, trusting they also know what not to post.

• On evolving brand:

  • Alison: 80% planning, 20% reserved for trends and fast experimentation. Don’t be afraid to try new platforms first.
  • Gary: Take risks to reach new audiences—relevance always. (55:16–55:47)

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Coping with Algorithm Changes & Declining Reach

(56:08–57:02)

• Gary:

  • Reach drops when creative gets stale, not because of the algorithm alone.

• Alison:

  • Sometimes basics beat trend-chasing—remind people what your product is and why it matters.

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Notable Quotes

• Gary Vaynerchuk:

  • “Attention is the asset… I think a lot of people are overpaying to try to get attention.” (02:39)
  • “I only look at one metric: views achieved organically.” (14:21)
  • “Every large company should spend at least 20% of their entire marketing budget on just organic social creative.” (00:18, 27:45)
  • “AI is not taking your job. A human using AI is taking your job. And you can use it too.” (37:52)

• Alison Ellsworth:

  • “Embarrassment is an undervalued emotion to make a fool of yourself online.” (05:36)
  • “Our most important asset is our community.” (41:09)
  • “You have to make a fool of yourself… If you’re not doing it, your competitor’s probably doing it and they’re going to win.” (33:37)
  • “80/20: Plan 80% of your content, leave 20% open for trends.” (55:23)

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Expert Commentary

Rita McGrath (50:11–54:21)

• Authenticity is crucial—a founder’s unvarnished presence beats corporate polish.
• Mistakes: Being too similar, inconsistent, and unclear in calls to action on social.
• Organic social should be at the core; paid strategies amplify what already works well.
• With AI, curation and good taste will be the scarce, valuable asset in a flood of average content.

April Arnold (46:27–49:29)

• Top talent cares more about trust, work/life balance, and culture than cash.
• Employer brand must communicate company values at every candidate touchpoint.
• Referrals, internal advancement, and relationships with education/industry sources keep pipelines full.
• Make interviews real and relevant—avoid generic questions.

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [01:46] Alison on posting real life and authenticity
• [03:53] Gary on underpriced channels & creative
• [05:36] Alison discovering the power of TikTok storytelling
• [07:44] Alison: “Sing your greatest hits”
• [14:21] Gary on the rise of "interest media" vs. "social media"
• [17:52] Alison: “Instagram is your website”
• [19:49] Gary on Facebook Blue’s resurgence for Gen Z/Millennials
• [22:41] Gary on the trap of ‘90s marketing orthodoxy
• [25:04] Alison: Building a social-forward company culture
• [27:45] Gary’s 20% of budget rule on organic creative
• [33:37] Alison: “You just have to get over it” (founder embarrassment block)
• [37:52] Gary on AI: “A human using AI is taking your job”
• [41:09] Alison: “We kept all community management in house”
• [43:17] Gary on hyperlocal paid social: “Transformed my father’s wine store”
• [55:23] Alison on 80/20 rule for planning and trends

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in social brand-building, showing how rapid experimentation, authenticity, and day-to-day adaptation are the new rules of the attention economy. Both established brands and startup founders can learn actionable lessons on evolving social strategies, fostering internal teams, fusing creativity with data, and embracing AI as the next utility. Miss this episode at your competitive peril.

Transcript

[Rebecca Kosinski]

With the Venture X Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. Plus, the Venture X Business card has no preset spending limit, so your purchasing power can adapt to meet your business needs. Capital One, what's in your wallet?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I believe every large company should spend at least 20% of their entire marketing budget on just organic, social, creative. Otherwise, we will continue to see more poppies go from zero to billions while the big companies putz around and say, what's happening

[Mike Hoffman]

today on youn Next Move, the attention economy and the new ways to win on social media. Joining us are two masters of digital marketing. Known to his 44 million followers as Gary Vee, Gary Vaynerchuk started his company and borrowed conference rooms and has grown to 15 offices globally and a reported $209 million in revenue. We're also joined by Alison Ellsworth, founder of Poppy, the modern soda brand that went viral on its way to over 1 million followers. PepsiCo acquired it in 2025 for $1.95 billion. So what is the attention economy and how can your company dominate it? Gary and Alison are here to discuss their content, their philosophy, and what it means to be authentic. Now, I'm Mike Hoffman, Aeron chief of Inc. And welcome to your next move, produced by Inc. And Capital One Business. So, hi, guys. Thanks for being here today.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Thanks for having us.

[Alison Ellsworth]

Hello.

[Mike Hoffman]

So we're here to talk about the attention economy. It's something that both of you and your companies have mastered. It's something I think a lot of viewers who are founders of companies have questions about. So as we get started, Alison, let's start with you. How would you define the attention economy? What is it, and how does it work for companies like yours?

[Alison Ellsworth]

The attention economy, I think, can actually be a confusing conversation that people are like, okay, is it my kids on the Internet? Do I, as a founder at my company, have to be the face of my company? And I think the answer is yes, especially with if you want to win. So a lot of people have looked at me and they're like, allison, you share your whole life, your kids, the ins and outs, your hair messed up with no makeup, or me and Crocs and socks while I'm doing these things. And they're just like, how can you let people in like that? And I think it's free my time. It's free marketing for the company to be authentic and real. I think times have changed. People are seeing sick of the high gloss. And I also think people think it's overdone. The founder LED company and I don't think it's been done enough. It's the real conversation that's interesting.

[Mike Hoffman]

How do you feel about that, Gary? Do you feel like it's overdone, not done enough or where do you come down on that?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I think tying it into your opening question, I think for humans, for companies, for politicians, for for anything, the attention is the asset, right? How can you possibly change someone's mind? How can you possibly sell something unless someone actually hears it or consumes it? Right. How you fill that attention, I think can happen a lot of different ways. I agree with Alison. I think there is unlimited opportunity for founders to put themselves in a position to have another weapon in the toolbox to drive their business. However, counter there are many companies in the Inc 500 that the founder is not out and about. So there are multiple ways to play the game. I think it's really for the people that are watching a self awareness game where you are in your journey. Some founders may want in their first company to be very out in front. Maybe they make a lot of money and the second time they wanna be a little more private. There's a million ways to play it. But I think for me the attention economy or the way I think about day trading attention is. I think a lot of people are overpaying to try to get attention. And I think there's a lot of moves to do where you can get attention for very little. And that's how I think about it.

[Mike Hoffman]

And so what are some of those moves that you can do for very little price?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, I think the reason I've been yapping for 15 years about social media is that even as we film this today, it continues to be overall underpriced. Now you can do it wrong. You can spend a million dollars on Facebook ads amplifying a bad piece of creative. Now you just wasted a million dollars. But if you play it right, I still think social is incredibly underpriced. I think live social shopping is about to be talked about a ton as an underpriced attention move. I think that long tail influencers, creators, affiliates, continues to be underpriced. I think the live streaming ecosystem, the twitches, the kicks are underpriced today because most companies and individuals don't know about it. Overpriced for me are regular television commercials. I think super bowl underpriced, regular television commercials, overpriced. Banner ads on the Internet overpriced. So you're kind of looking at it day by day and it changes. I Built my original companies on email and on banner ads, by the way, and on Google AdWords. And those things are changing. The LLMs are now here, ChatGPT, AEO, Geo. That's going to be underpriced. So it's a constant moving target.

[Mike Hoffman]

So, Alison, for you, when did you sort of discover, oh, hey, I'm a founder, People are interested in my life Unfiltered. Was that something that you were. Were you super active on social even before Poppy, or was that something that developed as the business develop?

[Alison Ellsworth]

I was absolutely not on social before Poppy and didn't really even understand it in my personal life. I remember like Facebook came out when I was in high school. You know, you go through college and Instagram.

[Mike Hoffman]

You were an early investor in Facebook.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, I also was not in high school when it came out. That's why I was laughing.

[Alison Ellsworth]

Yeah, you were like, age gap, but no, I think. And then Instagram, like right now trending is all this back, going back 10 years and you're seeing all of the Instagram filters. Like the filters were like the new thing. And so I was always like fun and testing it. But when it came to Poppy, I created it in my kitchen to where I was so passionate and desperate to tell as many people as possible. And I kind of had the mentality of like, why not try it? And I think embarrassment is a undervalued emotion to make a fool of yourself online. I had the ability to just like, not care. And I think a lot of people really struggle with that. So for me, I wanted to win. I wanted to share my story to TikTok. We launched Poppy March 2020. TikTok was kind of like, yeah, dancing kids. A lot of brands really weren't playing in the space. And so I spent my nights and weekends personally doing trends and transitions and dancing and doing taco video making and anything I can do. And really what worked was me sitting down one night. I will never forget. It was a Friday night. I sat down and I just told my story and I hit post and I woke up and it had a million views. We did $100,000 on Amazon that night. And everyone's eyes were opened to wait. This is a marketing tool for the business. It's not just a platform for dancing kids. And I think that a lot of businesses still don't utilize it the right way. They look at it as a marketing tool and not a brand awareness tool, not a discovery tool, not a, like, there's an ROI or you have to have some kind of return. We Always saw it as just like a way to build community. And I think that's what we did really good is building that founder led community from the grassroots up. And I mean we've evolved over time. It's not quite the same. I'm not on it as much, which I think all brands do have to evolve. But it was really important on those early days.

[Mike Hoffman]

I think many people worry that they'll have a big post, maybe not a million views, but something like that, something that goes a little bit viral depending on the scale of their business, but then not get that $100,000 in revenue right away. Was there something about that post that you think actually drove revenue? Or how do you connect like the virality of the stuff that you on social with the actual business results?

[Alison Ellsworth]

Well, people look at organic virality and they don't take advantage of it on the paid side. So we took this piece of content that originally connected with our community and then we put a ton of pain behind it. And for reference, that one video now has 258 million views. I have 3 billion views on TikTok. One third of the platform has seen my face seven times. And so we took it as a marketing tool. Yes, we went viral. So a lot of people are like, we went viral, we didn't see any sales. Well, people connected with that piece of content. Now utilize it within your 360 marketing tool chest. That I think a lot of people look at virality as like, well, I went viral once and then you're always chasing that next virality versus rethinking how to use that asset and then post it again. Try it a different way. Do a different hook at the beginning. Like I love TikTok and I always say this with people is like no one scrolls down your TikTok feed to see what you posted a month ago. So post the same stuff you posted a month ago like nobody cares. It's that embarrassment factor that hold people back from redoing the same thing, talking about the same thing. Just imagine like singers, how, how sick are singers saying singing the same song for like 20 years? The greatest hits, like you almost have to think of it that way.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. I also just to add, when a piece of creative gets 1 million, 20 million, 40 million views, people are interested in if there's a buying element to go buy it. The reason people don't see sales a lot of times off all those views is because their product might not be that interesting to people. They might be overpriced their landing page on their website. Might have too much friction. So there isn't. We're very fortunate at the size and scale that Vayner plays at. We see 100% unequivocal data that supports when things get organic views at scales. There's a complete and black and white ROI to it. The levels of ROI are predicated on many other factors that have nothing to do with marketing.

[Mike Hoffman]

What's your value proposition after you get people in the door?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, I mean there's people that go viral and they've got a product and everyone goes to their site and they're like wait a minute, that's 20 bucks. I can buy for 13 somewhere else. So the attention goes there. But the conversion has so many other. The fact that Poppy was not just DTC at that time, where people another website, another email that they went to Amazon to get it, where it's very easy for everyone. That has a huge difference. If they were DTC only, I promise you it wouldn't have been $100,000 because there would have been more friction. Whereas with prime, boop boop boop. I'm just going to add it. Oh, I like her. I'm going to add it. Try a case, try a six pack. So people have to understand like there's marketing but then there's so many other parts of business. But if you want to have the debate of like do views that are earned and by the way, a big thing that people don't understand is to get views in social today it must be relevant. Relevance leads to consideration and consideration leads to purchase. These algos are built perfectly for what all of us as marketers and salespeople and businesses want to happen. But there are other elements in the conversion cycle.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's interesting. And so obviously Vayner is an agency

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

and the greatest agency of all. The greatest agency according to my mom. I want to make sure I source it.

[Mike Hoffman]

Yeah, well, what I wanted to ask is it's interesting. You obviously been able to be very online and have a big personality on social and you're doing that in the service of a service industry and a B2B service industry.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And. And I started direct to consumer wine brand called Empathy and sold that in 18 months to Constellation. And I used it when we co founded Resi, the restaurant app obviously that we sold to Amex. So I, I like, you know, I like playing sides of it. You know I love having Vayner and obviously we've built one of the largest agencies in the world but I always want to scratch a little bit on the side for my dad's wine business or for building vee friends, my Pokemon Marvel thing or some of the prior businesses I built. So I'm trying to play on both sides.

[Mike Hoffman]

Well, I'm curious with that. Do you see differences in the way sort of service or business to business companies can can market themselves through social or is it all very similar?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It's similar, but it's contextual. Obviously when I'm thinking about Vayner x VaynerMedia, all the agencies I'm building, I want to dominate LinkedIn, right? Because my audience is there, I can reach unlimited cmos at scale. I also made one of the most important points in current marketing, win on organic and then have a paid media understanding so I can post something about a nuance on live shopping. I can like the way it goes organically and then I can decide to spend the media dollars targeting CMOs of apparel brands or beauty brands that I think are more conducive to jump on live shopping quicker than maybe an auto company understand. So it is similar and obviously I'm fortunate. I've put 20 years of work in where my personal brand is definitely in a place where I can win B2B business even on TikTok or Instagram and Facebook. I'm humbled that I think I'm in raref air currently, but I don't not think I'm an enigma. I think I'm the preview and I feel like in a decade many will be playing that kind of game.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's interesting. I'm sort of curious. So was there a moment when you were like, oh, my follower account is really growing fast and that's when this is clicking. Was it engagement? What are the metrics that you looked at sort of at the earlier in your careers as you were becoming Internet famous and then what are the metrics you look at today?

[Alison Ellsworth]

I think it's by platform. I think with TikTok we really didn't care so much about our followers because you're on the FYP page. It's discovery, it's brand awareness. And then I think like Instagram, quote unquote is your website at the end of the day. So you really do want high engagement education. Really see that like real growth, not buying your follower growth, which I think a lot of people get into that cycle. And then I think LinkedIn was a really big piece for us as well, just to be a thought leader in the space. And so I think you're looking at it all the same now as a brand. We have not and yet Figured out how to do YouTube. I think it's extremely hard for brands to do long form content and do it well and make it like an actual thing. Because I think people don't realize with YouTube and I'm sure you can speak to this is there's so much editing that goes on in the background. The content planning, it's almost like a whole. You need like multiple people to do it, right? To do the long form content. Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It's funny you bring up YouTube, you know, Internet. I'm laughing. It's 20 years for me, you know, in 2026. I started in 2006 on YouTube long form in the wine business. And that's all I did for five years and I fully built my brand in long form YouTube. But then I made a hard transition into the business world and that was predominantly done on Facebook and Instagram at the time and evolved. Couple things. Following count by the nanosecond is declining as an important metric because now we are living no longer in social media. How many social friends do you have? We are fully in interest media now. The fyp. You know, if you go back to Tumblr, I was defining interest media. Interest media is posting content and the content itself is finding people based on them being interested in that kind of content. And if that initial group that is just randomly seeing it, whether they follow you or not, are engaging with that piece of content, it now starts to grow. And the algorithm is trying to see how interesting is this to how many people and people are the algorithm. Right. The audience is actually. There is no algorithm. It's people seeing things and how they act controls it. This is very important. Like if I make a video today about peanut butter, the first small percentage of people are likely to have some relevance towards peanut butter in their actions within that platform. That is so different than the first 16 years of my career, which is I did everything I could to get people to follow me and then they would see everything. And I was different. I wasn't niche. I believed in a very different game. I did wine, I did jets content, I did garage sale content, I did marketing content, motivational content. I really played it different than best practices because I believed that I wanted people to connect to my relevance. No different than no hair and makeup or with the kids. I think people are missing the whole point of what's going on right now. Every brand in the world's number one actual job is to be as relevant to as many people as possible to have them buy it. Now you're gonna have a priority chart. You're gonna be in a place where you don't wanna alienate certain groups by things you do. But there's a very easy way to do that in the fragmentation media landscape we now live in. And so that's what I mean by interest media. We're in a place now where the content is finding the audience, not you're trying to build an email list or a subscription list or a following count. So following is starting to decline. I only look at one metric, which is views achieved organically. Because when, if you look at likes, comments and shares, like most platforms, those are just three or four of the metrics that a platform is gauging. If you're interested, for example, in Feed, we all live. If you stop somewhere, zoom in, sit on that piece of content for a minute, that is a much bigger indicator that you care about that content than a quick double tap because you like the boots real quick, right? That is going to lead to more people seeing it than if I liked and shared it, if I sat on it for 30 seconds. There's no metrics that we as influencers or brands can see on the back end. The platforms are keeping a lot of engagement metrics behind the wall and that's a very important nuance that most people are missing.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's fascinating. I'm curious about something you said, which is that Instagram is your website. Can you talk about how you came to that realization? And then how do you program Instagram?

[Alison Ellsworth]

Knowing that, I think I'll put the question back to you. When someone says, hey, have you seen this brand? Do you go to www.and no, you open Instagram? And I think that point is, is why it's your website. And I think our content strategy is very different. And Even my personal one versus Instagram and TikTok, like, you can't just use the same content. You can. There's a little bit of a crossover within reels and, and TikTok, but I think it's a place where people. One, you can obviously shop on Instagram. That's never worked for us because we've been 100% Amazon. But I will say it's just, it's just different. It's more curated, it's a little bit higher gloss. You might have the same reels but with like curated cover photos. Because it's also, I think, a little bit, I don't know if you'd say older audience, but most people just go to your, your Instagram and it's so funny and thinking why I just talked about the platform for of go. Like I never even like think about Facebook anymore. And for us, I think it's because we were a very young brand and I think the audience on Facebook is a little bit older. And so I think it's very different for every brand. Like if I'm starting another company and it's maybe in fiber Facebook, like that's not as sexy fiber as poppy maybe Facebook would have been a place that we would want to play. And so I think that it is our website. I don't know if it'll be like that forever though. That's the beauty of social media is I think we did a really good job of like paying attention and switching versus I think people get really comfortable. It's what's working. They're like why isn't this working anymore? And they're not paying attention to the trends and what's happening. And they're like, why am I not growing? Why aren't I getting the views? And they're doing the same thing they did three months ago. Well, three months ago it's probably not working the same. And so we're constantly have the conversation day after day after day, what is trending right now and how are we the trendsetters? How are we not the ones? Oh, someone posted this three days ago. We want to be the first to post or setting the trends and it's always at the front of our minds, which I think a lot of companies don't make a priority.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's fascinating.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You were.

[Mike Hoffman]

That was fascinating.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

There was, there was something she said that like so was fascinating. That's exactly right comma to that point. Right now, currently at Vayner, one of the places we're highly focused on in selling to 22 to 35 year olds is Facebook Blue. Here's why, to Allison's point, in the prime of poppy, Facebook groups and Facebook marketplace had not triggered into what they have in the last year, which is bringing a lot more 20 and 30 year olds, which is like so counterintuitive. Right. But because it's happened like you'd be stunned how many 26 year olds go on Facebook Blue every day. It's created an opportunity for marketers that are out the second aware of that, an opportunity to market to them because so many people are not marketing in that environment. And so we're seeing higher conversion from 20 to 30 with ads we're doing in Facebook blue than sometimes on Instagram and TikTok just because of supply and demand. There are more 20 to 30 year olds, obviously on Instagram and TikTok, but there are less brands trying to get to a 20 to 30 year old on Blue and there's enough hours and attention. They are all triggered by two things you wouldn't think about Facebook Marketplace because they're trying to get things for their first apartment and groups that have become a safer place for a lot of 20 year olds than maybe a Reddit or 4chan or something of that nature. Just fascinating. Hence to the intensity it takes to stay on top of the evolution of these platforms on a daily basis.

[Mike Hoffman]

You talked about sort of setting trends and not being overly wed to trends that could be fleeting or passing. Is there something that worked even a short time ago, three months ago, six months ago, that doesn't work now? And if so, what's your thinking for why it doesn't work now?

[Alison Ellsworth]

I'd be curious your thoughts on this too, but I feel like the algorithms are consistently changing on all the platforms. One day static carousels are really trendy and then reels and then captions and then only five hashtags now on TikTok. Right. So it's like they are always changing. And so it's being aware of those changes, I think. So it's not necessarily that trends and then also noticing carousels, they worked three months ago, doesn't work now. Well, in three weeks. Let's test it again because it might have changed three weeks from now. And so I think it's more of that conversation. Not like this didn't trend or I think like a big trend happening right now is posting what happened in 2016 and posting 10 years ago, like throwback isn't like talking about Something that happened 10 years ago is not revolutionizing, but it's trending right now. Is it going to probably trend in even four days? Probably not.

[Mike Hoffman]

And so I think those pictures are cute.

[Alison Ellsworth]

They're cute and I love it because it's the year we launched Mother Beverage and it's like 10 years of like, it's really cool.

[Mike Hoffman]

So that was a precursor to Poppy.

[Alison Ellsworth]

It was a little bit special within that trend. But I do think like, you can't, you can't almost think of it that way, I guess.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, I mean, I think Allison's touching on the right things again. Brands have this obsession with the academia that they were taught in the 90s of like staying on brand and consistency. And they have this visceral reaction to. I mean, if I hear, hey Gary, we don't want to be a brand that just follows a trend. I hear that 600 times a week from clients and potential clients. And I asked them why not? You know, brands have become so focused on literally the academia of marketing versus being in the trenches of marketing, which is why founders are creating companies that these brands are buying because they're playing a different game. To me, it's a very simple, tried and true, ironically marketing thing, which is relevance, relevance, relevance. I touched on it earlier, I'm going to touch on it again. And if relevance needs to require for this week only, then you're gonna take it. Because what it leads to is trial. If Poppy does something that I find relevant. Cause I love American football, and they decided to do something in that space, and that leads me to try their root beer. And then I like that root beer. They've created a real lifetime value customer by making something relevant to me. In a nanosecond moment, the second best quarterback in college football has decided to go back to school. Just snubbing my New York Jets. I'm sad. Brand makes joke about that in a way that doesn't upset me and makes me like, it goes in my head, I go to bodega, I try it. That is real life, whether it was taught in the 90s, pre Internet and social media or not. That is the friction right now on this conversation.

[Mike Hoffman]

I imagine that there are sort of two things that happen in the world. There are companies like yours where the founder is super excited about and aggressive about their own personal brand and social media and having the attention economy being a driver of business. And I wonder what it's like for you, managing your teams who might be more anxious, more conservative, you know, need your guidance or your. Your coaching on this kind of thing. And then I imagine there are also a lot of companies where the social team or the marketing team are pushing and the executives are. Are more conservative. Now I'm curious, like, within your companies, how do you build a culture where the attention economy is something that everyone understands and excited about? And as nimble Allison, we'll start with you.

[Alison Ellsworth]

I will say I don't think they get, quote, unquote, either how easy or how hard it is. So they're like, oh, you have one person, you're fine, you got this. I'm like, no, there's so much more to it. It's almost like if you don't get it, you don't get it. And it is actually a really hard barrier to get people that don't get it to get it. And so for us, I do think it was kind of built within the Cultural DNA at Poppy to be social forward, we hired really young. It was, I mean like our national meetings, we would get together with the entire company and part of the agenda was to create TikToks as an entire company. Right. So it was just like part of the thought system within, but it would still be like new leaders would come in. They hadn't seen what would happen the two years prior and the virality and the success with it and you're having to rethink or really retrain them. There's been some resistance, but I think we were very lucky because it kind of started from the beginning. But I think there's still a lack of awareness of how much work it is and that it is a job and that you do need a team and you do need editors and copywriters and graphic designers and art directors. Like it's a. You have to build a team around it if you want to make it serious. You can't just hire a kid out of college and say let's go viral. There's a big disconnect within that, within companies.

[Mike Hoffman]

Gary, what do you think?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

VaynerMedia started in 09 with one thesis which was social media was going to easily, and I mean easily ascend to the most important attention platforms above television, print, radio, outdoor. And so it was religion from day one. Internally, there's little room to be confused on this issue and it's not that hard, honestly. We don't say like, oh you're like, it's so not confusing of what we're about, where we're about and how great we want to be in the game. On the flip side, I think the first 10 years of VaynerMedia, not one client actually wanted to buy what we were selling.

[Mike Hoffman]

I can imagine.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yet, I mean it is incredible the amount of crap I ate for 15 years. Having it misunderstood, having it disrespected. I mean we're talking as recent as 2018, 2020, when amazing companies were on their way to building billion dollar companies where our clients would spend a half a million dollars a year on social creative but be thrilled to spend $3 million on a stunt in the Grand Canyon that four people saw. So. So the confusion was extraordinary, by the way. The confusion continues to be extraordinary.

[Mike Hoffman]

How so?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Every single Fortune 500 Inc. 5000 company in the world is under investing in organic social media, creative production. All of them. Every one of them.

[Mike Hoffman]

So what does that investment look like in a company that gets it as

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

much money as humanly possible? Because the smart ones know that that if you make a lot of content every time you're trying to make it great, let there be no confusion, everyone. This is not spray and pray. This is not throw against the wall and see what sticks. This is every time we're trying to make content that is good every time you don't do that. But when it's good, you take working media dollars and you amplify it against it. Right now we live in a world where working media dollars, the media dollars are hiding bad creative. We are going into a world and some of the great companies of the last decade figured it out early where working media dollar is amplifying good creative. And good creative is not judged by Don Draper or the three of us in a boardroom. It is judged by views achieved by relevance to the end consumer because they like it. That is the punchline. And so I would argue, and this is the moment where every C Suite executive is going to have their mind blown. I believe every, every large company should spend at least 20% of their entire marketing budget on just organic social creative. There are very few that spend 20% on all of the things besides working media. And so that is a profound shift and one they have to take. Otherwise we will continue to see more poppies go from zero to billions while the big companies putz around and say what's happening?

[Mike Hoffman]

Right. Challenger brands, right. There's also the thing though that many companies I think of all sizes are getting a little bit scared of social media because paid reach and performance marketing has become so challenging.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Do you see that it's become challenging if they don't understand what we're just talking about? No, I don't see that. I see actually more companies figuring it. I mean, think about how many companies have gone from zero to hundreds of millions of in revenue in a five year window over the last 10 years. That was unheard of before. It's challenging for people who are trying to play in 2017, Facebook AB testing, CAC, LTV because the dollars have gone up. Creative is the punchline, the creative is the variable. And so you have to put yourself in a position to get to that creative. So yes, I think it's challenging for someone who's running a five to seven years ago ABC testing model against a meta, Facebook and Instagram play. I do not think it's challenging for people that are committing to what we've been talking about here, which is win on organic, get the creative validated for free while you're doing good marketing to see the views and then run a media play. And then use that in super bowl and then use that as insights and the brief for other things. I think it's never been easier. Yet I think most people continue to be wildly confused.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's interesting. We sort of have talked about training your marketing team to get this, if they don't already. I'm curious about the reaction of investors. Right. Or potential investors to having a personal brand and building your company's brand and business through a personal brand.

[Alison Ellsworth]

I mean, I think with our investors, they were almost the biggest proponents of it.

[Mike Hoffman]

That's interesting.

[Alison Ellsworth]

Yeah. And I think we were very lucky. And we had the same investors throughout the entire process. And so they saw the brand, they saw what was working, and we doubled down. I think that's all it is. At the end of the day, it worked and they weren't scared of it. And it goes back to me as the founder of Poppy. It was a marketing tool to build community. It wasn't my ego getting in the way, trying to be famous and I'm a diva and I need this and I need an assistant. There was none of that. And so I think there was like, a mutual respect of, hey, this is working. I'm connecting with our community because at the end of the day, we have community, we don't have customers. And we've always looked at it that way of, like, how do we create a movement? We were on a mission to revolutionize soda for the next generation, like this emotional big movement versus, you know, the fight of it and investors. I do think now it's the norm and people are almost like, I think it's shifted where they're expecting it a little bit more and the founders are uncomfortable with it and they don't know how to act and they're like, wait, I have to get on and edit. And they get very, like, stressed over it. Versus I spend every morning still to this day for 20 minutes, and I look online through like a research len of. Of what's trending. I'm going in and saving the content. I'm going down deep dark holes, and I'm taking it serious from the top down. And I think a lot of times, yeah, they think it's cute and you're on social media and that's super fun and. And good job, honey. But, like, we took it serious as this way to build community. And those are the. I think the companies that are winning

[Mike Hoffman]

if a founder is reluctant. Because I think that that's right. The question I get constantly, so how do you. Can they learn it? Is it something that you would coach them to figure out and push themselves. Or is it the type of thing that maybe there's another solution for their business?

[Alison Ellsworth]

I think it goes. Gary said it right, like it depends on the business, but I think someone that wants to be in that founder ladder, like it serves that business well.

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[Alison Ellsworth]

I just tell them they kind of just have to get over it. Like it's an ego thing. It's that goes back to that embarrassment thing. You have to make a fool of yourself every. You know if you're not doing it, your competitor's probably doing it and they're going to win over you. And so it's this thing of like do you want to win? And it's almost as simple as that. And then look, if you really cannot do it and it's like a big fear, there's a job where you can hire creators to be the face of your company and people get really caught up with well, what if they become the face of my company and they leave and they go somewhere, somewhere else. The Internet probably will forget after about three days. Like that's okay too.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

There's also one, the pre dawn of AI allowing companies to create their spokespeople. Like State Farm has Jake. Jake's a human. The next version of that in a decade. The tech exists now, but I think it will take time for corporate to get ready. But it's. We're really living in.

[Alison Ellsworth]

I want consumers to be comfortable with an AI talking to them because like they said, oh Allison, we can create you an AI. I'm like, well I don't think that's authentic to our brand. And so it's not quite there yet.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, it is not. However, people are not going to be able to tell. Like let there be no confusion, in 36 months the technology be so advanced, not one human will be able to tell. That's number one. Number two to your point, the stigma will go away. We all know right now Consumers do not want AI ads or AI stuff predominantly on a selfish node, that people are worried about losing their jobs and all the things that are going on to remind everybody who's watching. Online dating was wildly taboo in 2002. And if you met on match.com, you told nobody you made up a story that you met in a bar. So society will continue to move. But to the point, I think your advice is so right. People living, CEOs living as if they're still in high school and worried about someone making fun of their zit is usually a bad business strategy.

[Mike Hoffman]

You mentioned that the thesis of Vayner at the beginning, right, was that social media was gonna dominate.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Mike Hoffman]

And do you feel that way about AI now? And how does the company prepare itself for the future?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I think about AI different than social.

[Mike Hoffman]

Interesting.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I view AI more like electricity. I view AI more like the computer. I look at AI more like a mobile device. I look at AI more like oxygen. I actually think the AI conversation for a lot of people is a hair overblown. I think it's one of the most profound technologies of all time. But imagine me saying to you, all right now, like, what's your computer strategy?

[Mike Hoffman]

Right?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like what's your Internet strategy? And now, you know, as a little bit of no G, I remember the conversations of what's your Internet strategy in the late 90s, right? Like that wasn't real yet. So I think of AI more as omni. There is no, no task, no employee on earth in five years that isn't interacting with AI on a daily basis. Social was more a catch all attention portal. More like the television or radio or the printing press. AI is far more electricity.

[Mike Hoffman]

Are there ways to marry your social strategy to AI or to, you know, back to electricity?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, back to again. I'm glad you asked that. As a follow up, AI is electricity. Of course, there is no person producing content or running ads that, I mean, I would argue the best players right now live in. Let me rephrase. We live in a world where AI is part of an everyday function. Even if it's something as mundane as taking notes in meetings to get better insights out of the meat. Like, it's just. It's oxygen, brother.

[Alison Ellsworth]

It's just a scary word. I think it's what a trending word. And everyone who wants to talk about it and it's like we've been, I think AI has been around way longer than people even realize how everybody's used to it is. I think that your point and, and just Saying it simple is like in the editing software. People using the filters and the face tunes and, and all of these things. It's just like it's all around us, the algorithms, the way we run paid like all of these things, people are using this technology. It's not like AI, big scary AI's coming to get you and take over your marketing. I don't really even think about it. I'm just like, cool, it's there, great. I want, I want to be at the top. Top. We'll use it, we'll use the new platform, whatever. But it's not like what are we going to do in AI. We don't have meetings about how do we use AI.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Look, I think businesses and humans, it is a big deal. Like, like there will be ramifications. When search engines came out, tens of thousands of yellow pages salespeople lost their job. Like things happen when the car was invented. Like there was a poor SAP that bought 10,000 horses the month before. You know, like, like there is going to be some elements. There are incumbent in big companies that will get outflanked. But for the humans that are watching, I really need them to hear this sentence. AI is not taking your job. A human using AI is taking your job. And you're able to go and use it as well. And I hope that liberates some people. Like, oh, okay. Like the typewriter. Go read the history of the typewriter. All up in arms of what's this going to do to the people that write and say it's just what we do as humans. There's always going to be fear with new technology when it's a big one. And again, AI is a big one. The fear will go up and it's appropriate. But we do as individual humans and companies have the ability to adjust. We're aware of it. Are you now gonna cry and put your head in the sand or are you gonna put in the work to get good at it?

[Mike Hoffman]

That's great. So you talked about thinking about Poppy's customers really as a community and not as customers and community I think is a focus of yours as well, right? I'm sort of curious. One part is feedback and dialogue and one star reviews and negative feedback and all that. How do you both think of that through the lens of being the CEO or the founder of your company? And then how, you know, has it ever been sort of weird for you personally to like have that much feedback to yourself and your personal brand?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Please. No.

[Alison Ellsworth]

I mean, I have thick skin. I think I'm Built differently of like. I think there was a point where I personally had to stop doing a lot of the community management because I did, you know, take it personally. Be like, well, I. I didn't really like this flavor. I'm like, well, you didn't like this flavor because you don't know anything. I think, well, that's like a human emotion, right?

[Mike Hoffman]

And so I put my life into this flavor.

[Alison Ellsworth]

My kids. Yeah. And I think that's a human emotion that, you know, everyone has. Like, no one's gonna say, like, that doesn't bother me. I'm like, yes, of course it affects the way you feel, but I think, like, it is part of doing business. And so I think at Poppy, we took community management very seriously. We've always kept it in house. We never hired on an agency to be the voice of Poppy within the community. So we have three girls, full time, 24 7, living online, replying to every single comment. We reply to every DM within 24 hours. We have a customer service in house guy, he's incredible. Brian. He is on talking to our someone. Hello. @drinkpopy.com, a real person. We do use Zendesk and some of these platforms. Of course, we're not crazy in like doing all these. This not automated, but the intent, the intent, the religion, the relationship, our influencer community, our college community, we own those relationships. So every influencer we have either DM'd or talk to their agent. We don't once again have an agency running our influencer program, our college program, our ambassador program, thousands of kids. We have four people on our college team with relationships with those people. And we invest and we hire and keep that in house because it is the most important asset that we have as our community.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I mean, I mean, the story of my personal brand is often misunderstood. I will tell you that me replying to Every tweet from 2007 to 2011 is how I got here. I wrote a book in 2011 called the thank you Economy. It talked fully about this, which is how on earth are you not replying to every comment and every dm? Why would you not do that? It's the lowest hang. It's incredible. They clearly are interested to answer your question directly for me. You know, back to like, I've also really always viewed it as I have to be empathetic and sympathetic. Like, maybe they don't like Apple the way I like it. Or maybe they didn't like the wine I recommended. That was my early stuff. Or I mean, especially for me. Self awareness matters. Like you know, I curse, I'm casual. I mean I was a business person in 2009 that was like this when that was just not acceptable. I was very New Jersey. And for me to not, not to have the humility to understand why someone would think I was a bozo or things of that nature or if a client didn't like our services, I didn't default in saying our team stinks. But I needed to hear why. And sometimes their challenge. But this is just human. And I think the reality is if you don't have the humility, if you don't have the compassion, if you don't have the sympathy, if you don't have the empathy to understand this is how this person actually feels and then you don't have the critical thinking to dissect. Is this a real thing or is that person having a bad day and they're taking it out on you? Well then you're going to struggle to succeed. And I've been always detached, completely and utterly detached from the feedback against me as a person. All of my companies and my service company and I think that's serviced me well.

[Mike Hoffman]

Yeah, I want to ask one question. You mentioned being very New Jersey and I know you have a wine business in New Jersey and actually one thing I've seen is like from you, I think paid media that's like hyper local, like town by town by town. How did that come about and how does that work?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

So clearly you must live within a 10 mile radius of the wine line.

[Mike Hoffman]

You know it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I mean I think one of the again there's this crop of marketers and you're looking at two of them that have really figured it out. It is scary how effective 5 mile radius to a location. I'm so happy you asked this cause I know like a one store flower shop owner right now is about to have their business changed 5 mile radius to your store. Content from your store or your shop, your barber, your beauty salon, like your gym. 5 mile radius hosting organic ads. When something does well organically, running media in a five mile radius to drive people in is outperforming direct mail which I grew up on direct mail. I kind of still weirdly in this world ponder direct mail. But Facebook has proved to me and I still try direct mail once in a while just to make sure I'm right. But Facebook 1, 3, 5 and even 10 depending on what kind of business you have. Mile radius advertising with a call to action to drive into the store is a phenomenal, wildly Successful model. And that's why you keep seeing it. Because, like Alison, I'm going to try things constantly, but if they're not working, you know, earlier when she was talking investors and I said this, investors just look at the results. You know, they were supportive because it was working. Again, this is my push on corporate. Corporate marketers look at reports in academia and they, this is real friends. They're not looking at the results as much as you would think because they can't make the connection media separate from the creative. They don't control where it's sold. But to answer your question session, it's because it is the most effective marketing and it's transformed my father's wine store.

[Mike Hoffman]

Wow, that's great. So, obviously the name of the show is your next move. And so for our final question of the session, Allison, what is your next move?

[Alison Ellsworth]

We were just talking about this. So, you know, we did sell the company to Pepsi.

[Mike Hoffman]

Congratulations.

[Alison Ellsworth]

Yes, thank you. And I am hungry for what's next, so definitely stay tuned. But working on my next project, and I will be doing another product, so.

[Mike Hoffman]

Terrific. And Gary, what's your next move?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Continued world domination is on the docket. I want 8.3 billion people to know who I am and the companies that I support. And to the point of today, I'm actually writing a new book called the Individual Empire. My thesis is that the next great mass of corporations are actually started by the human, driven by the human, and then everything is built, built around them. And I know that to be true because I know our lives.

[Mike Hoffman]

Alison, Gary, thanks so much for this conversation. And we'll be back with you in just a little while.

[Alison Ellsworth]

Thank you.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Thanks.

[Mike Hoffman]

Now, this season, we're unpacking the most effective ways to hire, educate, and motivate your employees in a new segment that we're calling the People playbook. As you know, hiring the right people is one of the most important responsibilities that founders have. But how do you truly attract and engage great employees? We're happy to have April Arnold, director of hr, Business Cards and payments at Capital One, here to discuss how you can figure out the hiring equation. Welcome, April.

[April Arnold]

Thanks so much. I'm excited to be here.

[Mike Hoffman]

So what separates companies that attract elite talent from those that attract only available candidates?

[April Arnold]

Exceptional employees became that way because they've been strategic about their careers. They're looking for a few key things from prospective employers. Compensation is important, but it's not the top factor. Gallup research found that top performers want to know that they'll be trusted to do what they do best first and foremost. In addition, they want work, life balance and an emphasis on their well being as well as stability and job security. These factors all ranked before salary Strong talent looks for companies with a great employer brand and leadership vision. They want employers that can give them healthy workplace culture where they can do meaningful work.

[Mike Hoffman]

A lot of people today talk about the concept of an employer brand. So what makes for a good employer brand?

[April Arnold]

Well, like a product brand, an employer brand gives you an immediate understanding of the employer's values and priorities. It's shorthand that helps prospective employees understand if the mission, vision and values are a good fit. An employer brand is rooted in the workplace culture and should be communicated through every touch point with prospective candidates. Tell the world what your company and team stand for in your job ads, on your website, through social media and during the interview.

[Mike Hoffman]

So when it comes to hiring outcomes, what actions can have the biggest impact?

[April Arnold]

Look at why the top candidates have declined offers recently. You might find areas where the recruitment process needs to be improved. Track the process as well. How long does your hiring process take? Is your team giving timely feedback along the way? Some teams lose candidates because other employers make decisions faster or communicate better. Ask yourself, are your recruiters and hiring managers well prepared, ready to ask and answer smart questions? They're the ones selling your company to prospective hires, so they need to make a great impression.

[Mike Hoffman]

And what are some new and strategic ways to help keep the talent pipeline full?

[April Arnold]

Well, first, ask employees for referrals. Candidates referred by employees are more likely to receive and accept an offer. They're also more likely to stay longer. Developing talent from within helps you retain employees by offering career advancement opportunities and also helps you ensure that you have more options when the time comes to fill roles. Develop relationships with talent sources like education, career services, industry association personnel. These contacts can help you reach specific talent quickly. Use technology to track previous applicants too. For every job you filled, you likely had a few finalists. Keep in touch with them. They may be the right employee for another role.

[Mike Hoffman]

And as we all know, the interview process can be a chore for both interviewers and interviewees. So how can companies improve this process?

[April Arnold]

Change some of the tired approaches to interviews? How can you make the experience more authentic and fresh? Perhaps you can replace inquiries like Tell me about a time you solved a problem with a discussion about a situation that might happen in the actual job. This gives the candidate a taste of what the job is like, while also allowing the interviewer to see how the candidate thinks.

[Mike Hoffman]

April, thanks so much for being with us today.

[April Arnold]

Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat today.

[Mike Hoffman]

Next up, we'll take a closer look at one of the key strategies today's guests recommend.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

Thanks, Mike. I'm Rebecca Kosinski here with Rita McGrath for a conversation on how to define a successful social media strategy in the attention economy. Welcome, Rita.

[Rita McGrath]

Pleasure to be here.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

For a company like Poppy, you know, we saw Alison had great success on social media, particularly TikTok. What lessons should other founders draw from that about how they can kind of capitalize on this space?

[Rita McGrath]

Well, I think she's got a great product and really believes in it, which is very clear. But she's also very engaging as a person, so she's not afraid to show up with messy hair, and here's my kitchen, and here's I just got up and whatever. And so I think there's a real authenticity that comes with that that a lot of more corporate types just don't have. I remember once I was critiquing some social media that was done by a big corporation I was working, working with, and they had posted something, I think it was on Twitter at the time. So this is going back well. And they had some statement and then a little copyright sign next to it on social media. Wow. Talk about inauthentics.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

Yeah. I'm curious to hear more about if you think that there are any common mistakes that entrepreneurs are making on social media. Maybe when it comes to building their brand strategy or things that they might be overlooking, that could be a very easy win for them.

[Rita McGrath]

Mistakes on social media? Well, you know, there's a lot out there. Right. So being too much the same as everybody else, I think is probably the first canonical mistake. Secondly is being inconsistent, and then I guess the last thing would be not being clear on what it is. That's the call to action. You know, I see a lot of entrepreneurs get up and they talk about stuff, and you watch it, and that was interesting. But what am I now supposed to do? Right. So you want to be really clear about what is the behavior that you're trying to motivate by getting people to listen to your message on social media.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

We know from Gary and Allison's conversation that organic social media is super important. I'm curious how founders can look at the success or the pitfalls of their performance with their organic social content and how they can apply that to a paid strategy and what a successful paid strategy should look like.

[Rita McGrath]

Yeah. So the question of what do I pay for versus what do I sort of earn is a perennial. So I Think you want to have organic at the core and then depending on the product and depending on your goals, you may want to just goose that with some paid ads and paid promotion to get, get the word out in a faster way. You know, organic tends to be slow. Unless you are lucky like Poppy was and you go viral and everybody watches it. That can really be great, but it's rare.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

Is there any way that an entrepreneur can make that process a little bit easier for them? You know, of course hiring helps, but how can they kind of maximize their time when understanding they have to be posting basically everywhere, all the time, Right.

[Rita McGrath]

It's hard. I mean, you could spend 24, 7 doing nothing but PR, right? Not everything worth doing is worth doing perfectly. You know, a sort of amateurish but authentic post may get you just as much traction as something that's really slick and professionally done. So you can get a really long way with some very basic equipment. Now, when I think about entrepreneur, it's a lot like any other kind of launch, right? You don't want to wait until you need that audience to start building it.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

Rita, we've covered a lot of ground here today. I'm wondering if you have any final piece of advice for our audience when it comes to brand building and social media.

[Rita McGrath]

Yeah. So I think one of the things we haven't talked about is what AI is going to mean for content creation. Because basically that's what you're doing. If you're posting on social media, you're generating content and what AI is already doing is it's allowing an awful lot of, of sort of average quality content to just flood the channels. And so what I think is going to become increasingly important is to get to be known for having tasteful curation of whatever your thing is so that people can come to you as a trusted and reliable source. But the money is gonna go to where the scarcity is. Attention is scarce, curation is scarce, good taste is scarce, and that's where the money's gonna go. An example of that is what's happened in the music business, right? Artists today really make almost nothing on their pre recorded music. It's all kind of a buildup to the in person because that's scarce. And so I think as an entrepreneur, you really want to be thinking about where is the scarcity in this sort of universe that I'm creating and how do I monetize that rather than expecting to be able to make yourself known in a sea of just absolutely average content.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

Thanks so much for joining us today, Rita. This was a really insightful conversation.

[Rita McGrath]

It was a pleasure. Thank you, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Kosinski]

Rebecca, back to you, Mike.

[Mike Hoffman]

Now, one of the goals of the show is to connect our audience with founders like you, Gary, and Allison. And so it's time for viewer questions. And here's our first viewer question. What are the keys to building a strong social team? Gary, we'll start with you holding them

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

accountable to views achieved organically on social media. And I say that because once everyone knows what we're trying to achieve, you're giving clarity to your team of what the actual black and white North Star is. And then. And then the other key is to make them feel safe to communicate who they are. And then you, as a leader, auditing what are they great at?

[Mike Hoffman]

Alison, what about you?

[Alison Ellsworth]

Confidence. So there was a point at Poppy where over seven people had our login to our socials and had the ability to post without approvals from leadership. And that was confidence in them knowing what was trending, moving at the speed of culture, and confidence that they also know what won't get us canceled.

[April Arnold]

Canceled.

[Mike Hoffman]

So our next viewer question is, as your business scales, how are you thinking about evolving your brand's voice to increase your audience? Allison, we'll start with you.

[Alison Ellsworth]

I think you can't do what worked in the past. I live by the 80, 20 rule plan 80% of what you're doing within your content strategy and leave 20% open for trends. Hopping on immediately doing things within your content, and then jumping on new platforms and testing it out. I mean, there was, like, the lemonades of the world. There's all these, like. Like, different platforms that people are like, I want to be the first to. Don't be scared to be the first to that platform.

[Mike Hoffman]

Gary, what about you?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

To me, it's taking the risk to be relevant to a new audience. I mean, look at Poppy. Like, domination in that young female. Through the years, every time I would cross paths with Alison, I was like, go a little bit more for the dudes. Try it somewhere else. I really believe in that. I think relevance to more consumers will really drive top line relevant.

[Mike Hoffman]

And our last viewer question is this. So we all know that the algorithms are shifting constantly, and sometimes your reach dips. How do you pivot when that happens? Gary, we'll start with you.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

The reach is dipping only because of the creative. So this goes to a very easy thing, which is you need to shake up your creative. You need to take the risk. The embarrassment factor that Allison's talking about, like, you have to do different things.

[Alison Ellsworth]

This is the answer 100% agree. Couldn't say it more. I think on top of it, you might have to go back to the basics. So sometimes what worked really early in the beginning and just like toning it back too, I think is something people don't look at. They've learned and they're chasing the next virality and they're going bigger and they're like sometimes just stepping back and like for us, talking about, hey, this is poppy. It has 5 grams of sugar and it tastes good. And then all of a sudden we'd blow up again and it's like, don't forget that kind of just realism within your content as well.

[Mike Hoffman]

Gary Vaynerchuk of VaynerX and VaynerMedia and Allison Ellsworth of Poppy, thanks so much for being here today.

[Alison Ellsworth]

Thank you.

[Mike Hoffman]

Thanks for having us and thank you for watching. We hope today's conversation gave you a fresh perspective on creating community and what it truly means to be a social first brand. So join us next time for more industry experts, candid conversations and the strategies you need to make your next move. I'm Mike Hoffman, air in chief of Inc. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next.

[Rita McGrath]

Sam.