Podcast Summary: "Winning in the Attention Economy"

Podcast: Your Next Move
Host: Mike Hoffman, Inc. Magazine
Date: March 10, 2026
Guests: Gary Vaynerchuk (VaynerX/VaynerMedia), Alison Ellsworth (Poppy)
Special Guests: Rita McGrath, April Arnold

Episode Overview

This episode explores what it means for companies to win in today’s "attention economy," particularly through social media. Host Mike Hoffman interviews two digital marketing trailblazers: Gary Vaynerchuk (“Gary Vee”), whose agencies and personal brand have set new standards in the field, and Alison Ellsworth, who led modern soda startup Poppy to viral success and a $1.95 billion PepsiCo acquisition. They discuss content strategy, founder-led branding, the evolving social platform landscape, managing virality, community-building, and the increasing role of AI in marketing. Expert commentary comes from Rita McGrath (Columbia Business School) and April Arnold (Capital One).

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining the Attention Economy

(01:29–03:50)

• Alison Ellsworth:

  • The attention economy centers on founders being the authentic "face" of their company. Sharing unfiltered, candid moments generates free, impactful marketing.
  • “People are sick of the high gloss… Founder-led company—I don't think it's been done enough. It's the real conversation that's interesting.” (01:46)

• Gary Vaynerchuk:

  • Attention is the core asset for brands, companies, even politicians. There are many ways to win, but maximizing relevant attention is fundamental.
  • “How can you possibly change someone's mind, sell something, unless someone actually hears it?... I think a lot of people are overpaying to try to get attention. There’s a lot of moves… to get attention for very little.” (02:39–03:50)

Undervalued and Overvalued Channels

(03:53–05:05)

• Gary:
  • Social media remains underpriced relative to TV and Internet banner ads.
  • Live social shopping, long-tail creators, live streaming (Twitch, Kick) are emerging opportunities.
  • Investing in Super Bowl ads can be underpriced; but regular TV ads and banner ads are overpriced.
  • “It’s a constant moving target.” (03:53–05:05)

Building Viral Brands & Founder-Led Storytelling

(05:19–09:43)

• Alison:

  • She had no presence on social before Poppy; her journey began sharing the brand’s story on TikTok for fun, leading to massive virality and $100K overnight sales.
  • “I had the ability to just like, not care. And I think a lot of people struggle with that… I wanted to share my story to TikTok... What worked was telling my story. I hit post, and woke up to a million views.” (05:36–06:40)
  • Success is often about authentic community-building, not chasing pure ROI or virality metrics.

• Further strategies:

  • Amplify successful organic content with paid dollars for maximum reach. Repost high-performing content with tweaks—embarrassment is an enemy to be overcome.
  • “Post the same stuff you posted a month ago, nobody cares. Just imagine, singers sing the same song for 20 years. Greatest hits!” (07:44)

The Conversion Funnel & Creative’s Role in Sales

(08:54–10:54)

• Gary:
  • Viral reach doesn’t guarantee sales—conversion depends on product quality, pricing, and frictionless buying (e.g., buying Poppy on Amazon Prime).
  • “People are interested. The reason people don’t see sales... is because their product might not be that interesting... There’s marketing, then there are so many other parts of business.” (08:54)

Organic vs. Paid: The Modern Playbook

(11:18–14:21)

• Gary & Alison:
  • B2B brands can also win by being present and relevant—platform choice matters (e.g., LinkedIn for agency business).
  • Following and engagement metrics are declining in importance—now we’re in “interest media,” not “social media.”
  • “I only look at one metric: views achieved organically.” (Gary, 14:21)

Platform as Website & Evolving Content

(17:43–19:48)

• Alison:

  • Instagram has become the de facto website for many brands—a curated storefront.
  • Brands must keep adapting social strategies to match shifting trends, audience behaviors, and platform relevance.
  • “Most people just go to your Instagram. It is our website. But we’re always monitoring trends and switching—people get too comfortable.” (17:52–19:48)

• Gary:

  • Facebook Blue (core Facebook) is unexpectedly regaining young adult attention via groups and Marketplace—a ripe, low-competition ad environment.
  • “It’s created an opportunity… more 20- to 30-year-olds… yet fewer brands trying to get to them there… You have to stay on top of platforms daily.” (19:49–21:20)

Chasing Trends vs. Consistency

(21:20–24:21)

• Alison:

  • Algorithms and platform formats trend cyclically—what works now might not in three weeks. Brands must constantly experiment and react.
  • “Carousels worked three months ago, maybe not now, but in three weeks, let’s test again!” (21:37)

• Gary:

  • Brand managers often resist trend participation due to old-school “staying on brand” doctrine.
  • “Brands are obsessed with academia from the ‘90s... Founders are beating you because they’re playing a different game: relevance, relevance, relevance.” (22:41)

Team Culture & Social-First DNA

(25:04–26:17)

• Alison:

  • Embedding “social-first” culture at Poppy involved hiring young, involving the whole company in content, and maintaining grassroots energy despite new hires.
  • “It’s a job. You need a team—editors, copywriters, designers—you can’t just hire a kid and ‘go viral’.” (25:04)

• Gary:

  • VaynerMedia built around religion of social from day one. Client resistance lasted for a decade.
  • “Not one client wanted what we were selling for ten years... It continues to be misunderstood.” (26:57)

Investing in Social: How Much Is Enough?

(27:45–29:17)

• Gary:
  • Every large company should spend at least 20% of their entire marketing budget on organic social creative. Most big brands drastically underinvest.
  • “Otherwise, we will continue to see more poppies go from zero to billions while the big companies putz around and say what’s happening?” (00:18, 27:45)

Investors & Founder Branding

(30:57–32:36)

• Alison:

  • Investors at Poppy became champions of the founder-as-brand model as they saw returns and authentic community growth.
  • “At the end, it worked and they weren’t scared. We have community, not customers. It wasn’t my ego.” (31:03)

• On reluctant founders:

  • Founder-led doesn’t fit every business—but embarrassment/fear is the No. 1 roadblock. “You just have to get over it. If you’re not doing it, your competitors probably are—and they’ll win.” (33:37)

AI: Necessity, Not Differentiator

(34:10–37:52)

• Gary:

  • AI is as fundamental as electricity or the computer; soon every business function will use it by default.
  • “AI is not taking your job. A human using AI is taking your job. And you can use it too.” (37:52)

• Alison:

  • AI isn’t some distant, scary ‘other’—everyone's already using it (e.g., filters, algorithms). “We don’t have meetings about how do we use AI.” (37:09)

Community as the Core Asset

(39:01–41:09)

• Alison:

  • Keeping customer engagement in-house (not outsourced agencies) builds loyal community, not just transactional customers.
  • “We invest to have three girls, full time, 24/7, replying to every comment. We own those relationships. It’s our most important asset.” (39:56)

• Gary:

  • His early personal brand was built strictly via hyper-engagement with the audience. Every DM, comment, tweet was answered. “It’s the lowest hanging fruit.” (41:09)

Hyperlocal Paid Media (for Small Business Owners)

(42:57–45:01)

• Gary:
  • Ultra-narrow ad targeting (3–5 mile radius) is transforming brick-and-mortar:
  • “It is scary how effective 5 mile radius to your store... Outperforming direct mail. It’s transformed my father’s wine store.” (43:17)

Scaling & Brand Voice Evolution

(54:36–55:47)

• Gary:

  • Social teams need accountability for organic reach and creativity. Make space for staff to bring themselves to the table.

• Alison:

  • “Confidence”—Give the team posting authority to move at culture’s speed, trusting they also know what not to post.

• On evolving brand:

  • Alison: 80% planning, 20% reserved for trends and fast experimentation. Don’t be afraid to try new platforms first.
  • Gary: Take risks to reach new audiences—relevance always. (55:16–55:47)

Coping with Algorithm Changes & Declining Reach

(56:08–57:02)

• Gary:

  • Reach drops when creative gets stale, not because of the algorithm alone.

• Alison:

  • Sometimes basics beat trend-chasing—remind people what your product is and why it matters.

Notable Quotes

• Gary Vaynerchuk:

  • “Attention is the asset… I think a lot of people are overpaying to try to get attention.” (02:39)
  • “I only look at one metric: views achieved organically.” (14:21)
  • “Every large company should spend at least 20% of their entire marketing budget on just organic social creative.” (00:18, 27:45)
  • “AI is not taking your job. A human using AI is taking your job. And you can use it too.” (37:52)

• Alison Ellsworth:

  • “Embarrassment is an undervalued emotion to make a fool of yourself online.” (05:36)
  • “Our most important asset is our community.” (41:09)
  • “You have to make a fool of yourself… If you’re not doing it, your competitor’s probably doing it and they’re going to win.” (33:37)
  • “80/20: Plan 80% of your content, leave 20% open for trends.” (55:23)

Expert Commentary

Rita McGrath (50:11–54:21)

• Authenticity is crucial—a founder’s unvarnished presence beats corporate polish.
• Mistakes: Being too similar, inconsistent, and unclear in calls to action on social.
• Organic social should be at the core; paid strategies amplify what already works well.
• With AI, curation and good taste will be the scarce, valuable asset in a flood of average content.

April Arnold (46:27–49:29)

• Top talent cares more about trust, work/life balance, and culture than cash.
• Employer brand must communicate company values at every candidate touchpoint.
• Referrals, internal advancement, and relationships with education/industry sources keep pipelines full.
• Make interviews real and relevant—avoid generic questions.

Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [01:46] Alison on posting real life and authenticity
• [03:53] Gary on underpriced channels & creative
• [05:36] Alison discovering the power of TikTok storytelling
• [07:44] Alison: “Sing your greatest hits”
• [14:21] Gary on the rise of "interest media" vs. "social media"
• [17:52] Alison: “Instagram is your website”
• [19:49] Gary on Facebook Blue’s resurgence for Gen Z/Millennials
• [22:41] Gary on the trap of ‘90s marketing orthodoxy
• [25:04] Alison: Building a social-forward company culture
• [27:45] Gary’s 20% of budget rule on organic creative
• [33:37] Alison: “You just have to get over it” (founder embarrassment block)
• [37:52] Gary on AI: “A human using AI is taking your job”
• [41:09] Alison: “We kept all community management in house”
• [43:17] Gary on hyperlocal paid social: “Transformed my father’s wine store”
• [55:23] Alison on 80/20 rule for planning and trends

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in social brand-building, showing how rapid experimentation, authenticity, and day-to-day adaptation are the new rules of the attention economy. Both established brands and startup founders can learn actionable lessons on evolving social strategies, fostering internal teams, fusing creativity with data, and embracing AI as the next utility. Miss this episode at your competitive peril.