Pee-wee Herman Part 1 with Jamie Loftus

Summary

Podcast Summary: You're Wrong About - "Pee-wee Herman Part 1 with Jamie Loftus"

Release Date: June 30, 2025
Host: Sarah Marshall
Guest: Jamie Loftus
Duration: Approximately 68 minutes

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Introduction

In the premiere of the two-part episode titled "Pee-wee Herman Part 1," Sarah Marshall delves deep into the enigmatic life of Pee-wee Herman and his creator, Paul Reubens. Joined by podcast legend Jamie Loftus, known for her work on shows like Bechdel Cast and My Year in Mensa, the conversation promises to unearth the complexities behind a beloved yet often misunderstood character.

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Early Life of Paul Reubens

Jamie Loftus begins by tracing Paul Reubens' roots, highlighting his upbringing in a Jewish family that relocated to Sarasota, Florida. Paul’s father was a founding pilot of the Israeli Air Force, a fact that adds layers to Paul's family dynamic and early influences.

Jamie Loftus [17:37]: "Paul Rubens, AKA Pee Wee Herman, AKA originally Paul Rubin Feld, was born in upstate New York in 1952. He grew up in a Jewish family and moved to Sarasota, Florida, where his father was one of the five founding pilots of the Israeli Air Force in the 1948 war."

Jamie emphasizes the tension between Paul's father's hyper-masculine military background and Paul's own emerging theatrical and creative inclinations.

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Paul Reubens’ Artistic Journey

Paul's passion for the arts is evident from his high school years, where he immerses himself in theater, Andy Warhol-inspired photography projects, and experimental films. His time at CalArts marks a significant period of self-discovery and creative exploration.

Jamie Loftus [21:21]: "Peewee is a safe place from having to process what's going on with Paul in like, his life."

Despite his open exploration of gender and identity during his youth, Paul's journey takes a complicated turn as he grapples with his sexuality and the societal pressures of the time.

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Creation and Evolution of Pee-wee Herman

The transformation of Paul Reubens into Pee-wee Herman is a testament to his dedication to character development. Jamie recounts Paul's experiences with the Groundlings, a renowned improv and sketch comedy troupe, where he honed his skills alongside future stars like Phil Hartman and Cassandra Peterson (Elvira).

Jamie Loftus [42:16]: "I just show up."

The creation of Pee-wee Herman was born out of Paul's desire to express his unique blend of childlike wonder and adult humor. This character would eventually become a cultural icon, bridging the gap between children's programming and adult entertainment.

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Pee-wee's Playhouse: A Cultural Phenomenon

"Pee-wee's Playhouse" is celebrated for its innovative set design, quirky characters, and inclusive atmosphere. Jamie highlights the show's ability to resonate with both children and adults, thanks to its layered humor and creative storytelling.

Pee Wee Herman [13:24]: "The people who don't watch TV on Saturday mornings also get their chance."

The involvement of prominent figures like Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert in introducing special episodes underscores the broad appeal and mainstream acceptance of the show during its early days.

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Personal Struggles and Public Perception

Despite the success of Pee-wee Herman, Paul Reubens faced significant personal challenges, including legal issues and the pressures of maintaining a private identity. Jamie discusses how Paul navigated his sexuality in an era less accepting than today, choosing to publicly embody Pee-wee while keeping his personal life discreet.

Jamie Loftus [37:53]: "I was never publicly out; I chose to live as Pee-wee Herman and as Paul Reubens in private."

This duality contributed to the mystique surrounding Paul, making it difficult for the public to reconcile the flamboyant character with the man behind the mask.

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Impact of "Pee-wee's Playhouse" on Pop Culture

"Pee-wee's Playhouse" left an indelible mark on television and pop culture, influencing future shows like SpongeBob SquarePants with its whimsical design and character-driven narratives. Jamie draws parallels between Pee-wee and other iconic figures, emphasizing his role in paving the way for more inclusive and creative children's programming.

Jamie Loftus [63:11]: "The world of Pee Wee, especially the TV show, is so effortlessly inclusive in a way that never calls attention to itself."

The show's blend of creativity, humor, and inclusivity made it a beloved staple for multiple generations.

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Legacy and Reflections

As the episode concludes, Sarah and Jamie reflect on Paul Reubens' enduring legacy. They acknowledge the complexities of his life, both personal and professional, and the lasting influence of Pee-wee Herman. The discussion sets the stage for the impending second part, promising to explore further aspects of Paul's life and the cultural ramifications of his work.

Sarah Marshall [67:06]: "You have these characters that are clearly pulled from, like, Paul's story, childhood. But there's something different about them."

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Notable Quotes

• Sarah Marshall [03:10]: "It shouldn't be, should it?"
• Jamie Loftus [17:37]: "Paul Rubens, AKA Pee Wee Herman, AKA originally Paul Rubin Feld, was born in upstate New York in 1952."
• Jamie Loftus [21:21]: "Peewee is a safe place from having to process what's going on with Paul in like, his life."
• Jamie Loftus [42:16]: "I just show up."
• Jamie Loftus [63:11]: "The world of Pee Wee, especially the TV show, is so effortlessly inclusive in a way that never calls attention to itself."

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Conclusion

"Pee-wee Herman Part 1" offers an insightful exploration into the life of Paul Reubens and the creation of one of television's most eccentric characters. Through Jamie Loftus' expertise and personal anecdotes, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the man behind the clown, his artistic endeavors, and the cultural impact of his work. The episode sets a compelling foundation for the continuation in Part 2, promising to unravel more intricacies of Pee-wee Herman’s legacy.

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Additional Resources:

• Jamie Loftus' Book: Raw the Naked Truth About Hot Dogs is available in paperback and recommended for summer travels.
• Documentary Mentioned: Pee Wee as Himself by Matt Wolf provides extensive footage and interviews, further enriching the discussion around Paul Reubens.

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Thank you for listening to "You're Wrong About." Be sure to check out Part 2 of this episode for a continued deep dive into the fascinating story of Pee-wee Herman and Paul Reubens.

Transcript

[Sarah Marshall]

You gotta get weirder to survive. Welcome to youo Wrongabout. Today we are talking about Pee Wee Herman, the man, the clown, the legend. And we're also talking about Paul Rubens, who real man behind the character and what it means to be a person who lives as a character and then has to figure out how to be real. And we are talking about the story with podcast legend herself, Jamie Loftus, the host of 16th minute of the Bechdel cast of My Year in Mensa. So many other shows that you know and love and if you don't love them yet, you will very soon. Jamie has also appeared on this very show in some of my favorite episodes, talking about everything from ghost Hunting with Ed and Lorraine Warren to the Amityville Horror to Beanie Babies to Bonnie and Clyde. And I loved getting deep into this topic with her. So deep that this is going to be a two parter episode. So thank you for joining us for part one and we cannot wait to see you again in part two. Jamie Loftus is also the author of Raw the Naked Truth About Hot Dogs and it's out now in paperback. So please check it out. It will go perfectly with your summer travels and it packs up real nice. Thank you so much for listening and for being here and for getting through with us. We are late with our June bonus episode for those of us who listen over on Patreon and Apple subscriptions, because I am off stalking Bigfoot and other Cryptids. Not in the woods, but in a book, which is almost as fun. So we're going to have two bonus episodes for you in July and I can't wait to share them with you. For many of us, it's summer. It's hot. Keep hydrating, keep getting through it. We are so happy you're here. Here's your episode, welcome to youo Wrong about the show, where we talk about maligned women with maligned women. And with me today is the queen of clownery and brilliance and traveling America for a hot dog and every good thing in life, Jamie Loftus.

[Jamie Loftus]

Hi.

[Sarah Marshall]

How's that for an intro?

[Jamie Loftus]

I loved that. That felt great. I want to be Queen Clown.

[Sarah Marshall]

You are Queen clown. Exactly. That's the idea.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's the whole goal. Sometimes I get sidetracked, but that is the end goal.

[Sarah Marshall]

And sometimes we gotta send you in.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sometimes I have to read a book and sometimes even two or three. But clowns can read books. That's actually maybe my determination. Clowns don't just have to get topless on stage. They can and they should but they can read books too, and a lot of us do.

[Sarah Marshall]

But they gotta sit in the trailer.

[Jamie Loftus]

They do. They have to. They have to sit in it. That's a part of it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Do you find it worrying that in podcasts.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes.

[Sarah Marshall]

Like, I think we're both, we. We're both great, great and smart and we make wonderful observations about the world. And I truly believe that we say great things that people didn't think of. But also, it's so strange to do a show where people are like, it's. It's so deeply researched. It's just amazing. And you're like, well, I read one to three books. I mean, that is like, it did take some time for me, but is that amazing? It shouldn't be, should it?

[Jamie Loftus]

I do think it's interesting that there's. I mean, it's part of why one of my shows is slowing down a little bit, because I would like to actually earn that compliment.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. It feels much better when you're like, fuck, yeah, I did ruin my life for this topic. Thank you. Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean, yeah. And I have been able to do that for certain topics, but especially it's just tricky when you're. I feel like the bar for deep research is really not good. Like, there's times I've been complimented for my research that I'm like, well, I did research, but you know, I only had four days to put everything together, so I feel certain that there are things I missed. People dedicate their whole careers to stuff like this. And it's just research just is so undervalued. Which is why I think people call it deep dives now instead of something else. Because I think deep dives, which I have done, and I know we've both, we've both done deep dive style research and like actual like months long research and deep dive is like newspapers.com and a lot of Googling.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Which is what this episode is brought to you by today.

[Sarah Marshall]

And we. Yeah, and there's like, I think different levels of it and if you do them ethically, then like, they all are good.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

But there is like a limit to how much you can learn just in a certain amount of time of thinking about something. And I feel like I love the topics that we can descend into quickly and learn a lot about and briefly kind of have this fling with. And then there are the ones where it really sort of lodges in your soul. I love experiencing all those different levels, but I also feel sometimes, I guess I've just been thinking about this politically, when you've really put a good four days in and people are like, wow, incredible. And you're like, no, this should be a nice medium. You're like, wow, that's really nice. But it's not like it's someone's life's work or something.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think that that's, that's the thing is like, and why there has been an understandable, like, emphasis on citing sources on deep dive style work because you didn't do like, it's, it's you even if you're ethically presenting it because you're.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sort of joining a conversation with all these other people at a cocktail party and you're like, hi, what a fun party.

[Jamie Loftus]

Which is fine. I mean it's like I've had research cited by content that is made faster, but as long as it's excited, you know, it's like I'm, I'm not opposed to it getting out there. It's like, you don't have to be precious about it. It's just, it's weird. I do think it's like connected to this like content churn.

[Sarah Marshall]

I guess the sheer amount of misinformation. I think we're like, I don't know, it's, I don't know why I'm starting this off with my, my little anxieties. Except that I don't know, it's just, it's a safe space, this conversation. But I feel like I also get great inflated by how much misinformation and just people profiting by lying or out there where people are like, it's so nice when you don't lie to me on purpose. And I'm like, yeah, but like you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Shouldn'T thank me for that. I know, like that's the least we can do.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Although I, I said that I, I did my four days for this. But also this is, I've been preparing my whole life.

[Sarah Marshall]

This is a long term love because.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think I pitched this episode to you years ago.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But there was not really enough information to actually properly put it together until quite recently.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And this is one of those things where just your time living with an interest also goes into what you learn when the facts come out, where you have something to fit them into.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. I have a solid foundation of information. And then because of the recent Matt Wolf documentary, Pee Wee as himself, there's so much more information available that a lot of people, I think a lot of fans thought would never be available. So, so there's so much to talk about.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's fantastic. Because I hadn't watched it. I just know people were recommending it. But people recommend lots of things. And so the idea that there's all this new information is so exciting to me. And I also feel like, I don't know, this topic is maybe causing me to be a little bit reflective on the journey of the show. Because when I started making it with Michael Hobbs In 2018, I had this feeling of, like. And I look back and I'm like, Sarah, you were 30 years old. Why did you think that? But being like, wow, it's so great that we have this technology and information travels faster now. And when there's a crazy rumor now, it'll be easier to debunk it because we can spread the truth around to counteract misinformation, because people aren't getting all their facts from, you know, hard Copy and tabloids. And the age of information is here.

[Jamie Loftus]

Hurrah.

[Sarah Marshall]

And, like, I don't think that's true at all. I don't know what's true exactly. But I. I think that this is a topic where basically, to my understanding, like, the big story always implicitly around Pee Wee Herman is that Paul Reubens's career was, like, absolutely ruined for reasons that were consistently misreported around the time that they happen and for years after and sort of, like, misrumered. And in that way, I do group him with, like, all the beloved, maligned women and the stained glass of the show. You know, he's as close to Tonya Harding as most men will ever get, it would seem to me.

[Jamie Loftus]

I completely agree. And there's. Well, I. Were you. Were you a peewee kid?

[Sarah Marshall]

Not at all. That's the thing. Really interesting.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, I was a huge. I have cherry and Pee Wee in my arms right now.

[Sarah Marshall]

I was restricted mostly to educational tv, so that holds you back a bit.

[Jamie Loftus]

Pee Wee was educational. Not that people saw it at the time, but. No, I was. I was a Pee Wee kid. I wasn't alive when it was aired, but we had the. They released the entire collection in VHS when I went at some point when I was a kid and someone gave it to my dad for Christmas because my dad was a huge peewee fan. I am holding in my arms right now his original cherry puppet and Peewee Herman ventriloquist doll that were bequeathed to me by him a few years ago when Paul Rubens passed away, where he was like, oh, yeah, I have. Wait, I see if he sa. Sounds like. Because my. There were. There was floods at my house. But let's see. If he can do anything.

[Sarah Marshall]

He'S a dolphin.

[Jamie Loftus]

Now, if you slow it down. If you slow it down. Let's see.

[Sarah Marshall]

That is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, there he is. There's Paul Rubens. It's like he's in the room with us.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, it's like you're talking to Paul Reubens and David lynch simultaneously.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's like he's right there. I was actually. I was walking around Hollywood forever recently, like the reformed Hot Topic kid I am, and. And stopped by both David lynch and Paul Rubens. They're both there. But yeah, I was a huge, huge Pee Wee kid. And we did not tolerate Pee Wee's slander in our home.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's wonderful, because I feel like you were standing pretty alone at that time.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, but although not as alone as I thought. I will say upon sort of going back into the archives and seeing what the fan movements were at the time. But, yeah, we did not tolerate Pee Wee slander to the point where I wasn't even aware at any point of his. Of the second arrest in Los Angeles in the 2000s 1.

[Sarah Marshall]

I don't know the chronology at all, but what I do know is that at one point when I was probably like 11, watching some just like a movie that I think happened to have Paul Reubens in it, my dad, who was probably several beers deep at this point, I almost said deers. Beep. It's different. Like, walked in and like saw Paul Rubens and I think was like triggered by him. And it was like he got arrested for blah, blah, blah. And we'll get into what it was. But it wasn't what really happened that he was saying, but it was with the implication of something much more sinister.

[Jamie Loftus]

I see.

[Sarah Marshall]

Which I'm sure was pretty typical. And I feel like that was a core memory for me and so many kids. And it feels, in retrospect, like a very interesting and troubling thing to unpack.

[Jamie Loftus]

But yeah, I. I was really, really excited to see the recent documentary and it just. So I am not recapping a recently released documentary. I've been doing research on this for a bit and can sort of take you through at least what's available about Paul Rubin's life and career and sort of do a side by side on now that we have all this great interview footage with him shortly before he passed versus how it was characterized at the time. And we can really get into it. But before we get into it, I have a clip I'd like to send to you because I was like, wow, this is where me and Sarah's passions truly combine in a powerful way. This was because so much of what the appeal of Pee Wee's Playhouse was in the late 80s into the 90s was that adults enjoyed watching it, too. It was really creative, all this stuff. They aired two episodes at night once, and I believe 1987. And you will never believe who introduced these two nighttime airings of Pee Wee. Check out this clip. I was so excited.

[Sarah Marshall]

I hope it's Carrie Orbach.

[Jamie Loftus]

Even better.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay, let's see. Oh, it's in the chat. Okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes.

[Sarah Marshall]

Siskel and Ebert.

[Jamie Loftus]

Siskel and Ebert.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, my God. My boys. My baby boys.

[Jamie Loftus]

Your boys know my boy. It's really thrilling.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay. Three, two, one, go. Oh, boy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, I love the hiss.

[C]

I'm Gene Siskel of the Chicago Tribune.

[D]

And I'm Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun Times. And no, this is not our movie review program. We are introducing a program called A Special Evening of Pee Wee's Playhouse. And you might ask, what are a couple of adult film critics doing introducing Pee Wee Herman, the hero of a children's TV show, on Saturday mornings? And the answer to that is, what are a couple of adults like me and Gene doing watching that show every Saturday morning? I watch Pee Wee.

[Jamie Loftus]

Roger, come on.

[D]

The people who don't watch TV on Saturday mornings also get their chance.

[C]

I watch it with my children, and they like it. And what I found in watching this edition that we're going to see tonight, which is taken from the morning shows, is one. It's a safe show, meaning you learn things like to eat out of the four food groups, which I like to know. And also probably too late for me to learn that. Yeah, you eat out of about eight groups, twice out of four. But also, I think that you also learn how to make fruit things. But beyond, you already knew that. Fruit juicy things. No, I didn't know. I know that. What I also want to tell people is that it's a lot of fun. I mean, the decor of the show, if you haven't seen that, is great. And when they go out in outer space at the end of the show. Wait for that.

[D]

And it's nice to see that somebody on television has wit and is a little anarchic and is breaking the rules and is having fun while he does it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yay.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love this. I do, too. Because famously, you know, like, when they saw Blue Velvet, they're both like, oh, I don't know. I'm not sure. But, like, it's so rare for them to both commit to something. This is amazing.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was really. I mean, I. One of the things that we'll get into is it was really fun revisiting Peak Peewee and the reception of how beloved he was because he was like. I knew he was famous, but it is truly stunning the degree to which he was famous and almost universally beloved. The only people who didn't like PE Were people who didn't like annoying voices. And. And the episode they're about to introduce, because I did a full series rewatch when Paul Rubens passed away two years ago. My favorite episode they're introducing, it's called Playhouse in Outer Space, where they encounter an insecure alien that was an inspiration for one of my AIM screen names, Zizzy Beluba. And the whole joke is that Peewee's Playhouse has the secret word. And the secret word that week was Zizzy Balupa. And they're like, this word's surely never gonna come up. And then they beat an alien named. So, okay, that's the thrilling opening.

[Sarah Marshall]

That is thrilling. Can I tell you something embarrassing?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, of course.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay. When I was a kid, I watched any movie that Comedy Central played, which really ran the gamut, as you probably remember, from around this time. But one of the movies that Comedy Central would just put on, you know, when they felt like it was Pee Wee's Big Adventure.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I. I have very specific reasons for turning off of movies, and I really didn't like the opening scene where we have the breakfast machine, which is really cool. But. But then he doesn't eat his breakfast. Whoa. Why doesn't he eat his breakfast? It's a waste of food. I really didn't like that. And then I think I just found it a bit chaotic. And I was. Also, there are kids who like Drop Dead Fred, and there are kids who don't. And I don't. I'm not a Drop Dead Fred kid. And I feel like this plays into this.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is. Pee Wee's Big Adventure is one of my favorite movies.

[Sarah Marshall]

I watched it as an adult, and I like it now. But I. I'm just as. As a child. I just have to confess, that's the kind of child I was.

[Jamie Loftus]

Look, I. You're. You're wrong. But that's okay. I. I will say there's. There's superior breakfast machines. Caitlin and I talk about this a lot on the Bechtel cast whenever there's a breakfast machine, because superior breakfast machines include the Wallace and Gromit breakfast machine. Yeah, those guys never miss a Meal.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, that one gets you out of bed as well, which is really nice.

[Jamie Loftus]

Um, yeah. And. And Pee Wee's big adventure, as I'll get into is. Was before the TV show.

[Sarah Marshall]

Fascinating.

[Jamie Loftus]

But Paul Rubens, AKA Pee Wee Herman, AKA originally Paul Rubin Feld, was born in upstate New York in 1952. And right away, we have to get into something extremely complicated.

[Sarah Marshall]

Perfect.

[Jamie Loftus]

He grew up in a Jewish family. They moved to Sarasota, Florida. That's primarily where he grew up. His father was one of the founding pilots of the Israeli Air Force. What?

[Sarah Marshall]

It sucks almost right away, as history so frequently does. And the biographies of comedians, famously.

[Jamie Loftus]

So for what it's worth, he had a complicated relationship with his father for. For different reasons. But, you know, this was a big part of his family history. He was one of the five founding pilots of the Israeli Air Force in the 1948 war. So he was participating in the Nakba. And there is a, like, kind of a stunning amount written about Peewee's father, most of it very pro Zionist, but he was an American who volunteered to fly in the Israeli Air Force and basically turned things in favor of Israel in 1948. And it's kind of hard to do something worse than that. So that I won't get into in depth, because Paul never really addresses it in depth. The only thing I was able to find. I didn't watch it. I would say don't. Don't. I had no desire to watch it, but there's a 2014 documentary about this group of pilots that is very pro Israel, made by Steven Spielberg's little sister, called above and beyond, in which Paul and his mother, I think, speak about this.

[Sarah Marshall]

You got to get some. Some jobs for little sisters, I suppose.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean, Zionist propaganda for the little sister. I just don't know. So that is inextricably a part of his family history.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, well. And I hate to assume things, but you do feel like a dad who's the kind of person who volunteers to kill people on purpose is maybe gonna be less fun at home. I don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes. And to Paul and his siblings credit, they go on to do almost universally positive work for the world. But he. They move to Sarasota when Paul's very young. He has a younger sister and a young brother. His younger sister is now a lawyer with the ACLU in the south. She seems pretty great. Abby Rubenfeld.

[Sarah Marshall]

Godspeed, Abby.

[Jamie Loftus]

Abby rocks. But they moved to Sarasota, and. Which is where the Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus is headquartered. I did not know. Paul gets really into circus stuff.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's where they train elephant torturers.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yep.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sorry.

[Jamie Loftus]

And. And Paul gets really into the idea of being in the circus. He goes to circus camp. He's a weird little guy. He's an indoor. He's a circus kid. He's an indoor kid. He loves tv, as many future TV stars tend to. But you know, while I think like he's sort of regarded as this very 80s figure, so much of what he's pulling from is like TV that he grew up with. So there's like a lot of Howdy Doody and Soupy sales and like all of this stuff from the 50s and 60s that is pull into his work. Even though he gets famous in the.

[Sarah Marshall]

80S and probably maybe for that reason, partly where adults can kind of feel that culture happening.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like it's all adults. Not adult entertainers. Entertainers who are adults and adult entertainers are, are pulling from like their 20 year cycle. But yeah, so he, he in high school, gets really into theater. He's really into Andy Warhol. He's really into Morrissey. And he gets really close with this photographer named Anne who everyone thinks is his girlfriend, but she's not. He has like very intense friendships with women throughout his life. But spoiler alert, he's gay. Which is I, I think like he says that constantly too. He's like, surprise. Like, you know, Pee Wee's Playhouse is essentially drag queen story hour. Like he's gay.

[Sarah Marshall]

Greatest threat to our nation, of course.

[Jamie Loftus]

But he remains pretty firmly like a theater kid. He like does these photography projects with his best friend Anne in high school where he's trying to like telegraph hyper masculinity, but more as a performance. He's very much like a dorky theater kid at school. But then they do these photo shoots where he looks, you know, very different and looks like this very like masculine late 60s hippie guy. And he talked a lot about like, he generally has a good relationship with his parents, but his dad is this hyper masculine war criminal. And Paul is none of those things. But he feels generally supported by his family. And Paul and Ann decide to go to CalArts for college. I think that would be in like 1970. And in 1970, Paul, I feel like, starts to figure shit out. He's 18. He immediately becomes like the most popular guy at Cal Arts. Having never been the most popular guy in Sarasota.

[Sarah Marshall]

Do you have the impression that you would have been in the same friend group or an adjacent friend group in high school?

[Jamie Loftus]

I Think strict. I mean, because of A, theater and B, most of my friends were gay men and weird girls in high school, I would hope. But also, he's so. I also wonder if I would have been too intimidated because it seems like he always had, like, a big, funny prankster personality. And I feel like I was so introverted. I don't know. I really hope so. I know I would have wanted to be a spa, but would he have had me? I don't know. But this. I wanted to show you this clip because it made me laugh. I was looking for these old profiles of him on the news, and I found this one from, I think also 1987. Or no, from 89, where he had reached the level of fame, where, like, local news bureaus were going to his hometown in Sarasota and just being like, hey, did anyone hook up with him when he was 17 and they find the weirdest there? And this is. You know, for what it's worth, he only technically came out in this documentary. He came out posthumously.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I could get into sort of, like, the reasons that he made that decision, but for a long time, there's a lot of effort put into, like, who is pee wee dating? And he has a series of close women friends who sort of are, you know, down. Down to beard. But this clip just cracked me up because it's just random women in Sarasota in the 80s. Who knows if they're telling the truth?

[Sarah Marshall]

I feel like the economy for publishing was so good in the 90s that tabloids would have just someone on the, like, who's gay beat.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, I mean, this was before the. That question was ever really asked publicly. That doesn't happen for a couple years, until a couple years after this.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay. This is like, very sincerely, like, who did Paul Rubens hook up with in high school? Which is like. And then there's three. Three girls in a row that have stories about going on dates with Paul Rubens.

[Sarah Marshall]

All right, I'm at 413. You want to count it down and play together?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, do it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Three, two, one, go. And what about Paul's social life? Well, back in junior high school, he was something of a ladies man. There was Diane, now Mrs. Diane Weiss. She recalls her first and last date with Paul Rubenfeld.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, it was very romantic. We held hands. I'm sure of that. Sweaty palms, they're all. So we never went out again. We held hands.

[Sarah Marshall]

There was Susan McGarry, now an Episcopal priest. Now, not to say I can spot a lesbian at 20 paces, but this.

[Jamie Loftus]

Story is great because it's not giving straight teenager.

[E]

Oh, yeah. Paul loves Gina, Gina loves Paul. You know that. That kind of stuff. Notes back and forth between the classes.

[Sarah Marshall]

Their puppy love gradually led to a party and the first kiss. Paul's first kiss, Pee Wee's first kiss.

[E]

Had my arm around his neck. And he says, I'm gonna kiss you. And I thought, oh, my God, you know, this is. This is great, you know, so, you know, the girls are always more mature at that time. Anyway, so he puts his arm around me, and I closed my eyes, and when I opened my eyes, he had put cellophane across his lips. And I said, paul, I said, don't.

[Sarah Marshall]

Don't fool around.

[E]

I said, now, do you want to kiss me or not?

[Jamie Loftus]

See what I mean?

[E]

I mean, he was. He was funny then.

[Jamie Loftus]

Now, that's what I call a straight young man.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's what I call romance.

[Jamie Loftus]

Just. I'm sure that he hated that, but it just cracked me up because you were just like, what the fuck are we? But that's, like the level of famous he became where that was a viable story, right?

[Sarah Marshall]

And they kind of didn't find anything, but they're like, look, we got it. We have. We have to do our 10 minutes on pee Wee Herman. Let's just put it in there.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's. And it's fascinating. I mean, like, obviously, like, he's like, such a product of his time in all these different ways, but the amount of privacy he managed to maintain for a very long time, like, would just be completely impossible now, because when he and Anne get to calart during college, Paul is very openly gay. He is very openly performing in drag. He's doing experimental theater. Part of what makes this Matt Wolf documentary so great is that Paul was, like, a huge collector and a huge documenter of his life. So there was thousands and thousands of photos and video footage of him at every stage of his life.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's very Andy Warhol, I feel like.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes. And he. I mean, he was obsessed with Andy Warhol as another very straight thing to do.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes, famously.

[Jamie Loftus]

But it was part of his, like, end game that he wanted to move to New York eventually and join the Factory. Right? It's this very early 70s queer teenage.

[Sarah Marshall]

Dream and be taken advantage of by a scary old artist. But we all have to do it, you know, once and then maybe ideally not more than once, but, you know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sometimes it happens that doesn't end up quite. I think he. He meets Andy Warhol, but, like, he never. He. There's a lot of large, somewhat quote, unquote, conventional aspirations for the time, including getting on snl, that don't end up happening for him, that end up, I think, being good in the long run for him and not joining the Factory is one of those things. But at the time he's like, I, you know, there. There are these photos of him in drag in college and just so gorgeous, like, so beautiful. And, you know, he talked a lot about how, like, he, you know, was extremely popular and, you know, sort of held court every night with these parties and drag. There's all these experimental films of him as a teenager. There's like him as Jesus on the cross talking right to camera. Like, it's so charming. And yeah, he was an art kid. Right. So he gets really into the CalArts scene. He joins this acting ensemble and California with David Hasselhoff and Katie Seagal. It's like so bizarre, but they all knew each other.

[Sarah Marshall]

I would like a one act play about them, like, hanging out after class one day.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. He makes this short in 1973 where he plays a mermaid modeled after Cher. Like, it's just all of this really great stuff. His student thesis is this short that he made half in drag, half not. And it's like a very study of gender presentation. Like, he. He was very, very out and very, like, you know, exploring in the way that you do when you go to an arts college.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And in a way that maybe shows, like, why there's this, you know, fear, alleged fear of drag and drag queens. Because it feels like, okay, first of all, you're insane. But B, if you're saying that, then I think you're revealing what secretly maybe in your subconscious you understand, which is that playing with gender and teaching it or representing it as an object of play and exploration rather than oppression is like going against a very oppressive worldview where if you teach kids that they can experience creativity and freedom, then they won't consent to be abused as much. Oh, no.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. I mean, and at the time, and this is all. I mean, most of the information I'm sharing at the top here is from Matt Wolf's documentary because there was just very little known about Paul's early life because he intentionally didn't share it, which.

[Sarah Marshall]

Is just kind of fascinating to think of as like a right that a lot of us quietly gave up, you know, or that culturally people have really given up. And yeah, like you said, the degree of privacy that he was able to maintain while suddenly becoming as famous as he did, like, that feels almost like there was a Very tiny moment where that could happen. And it was inside of it that he fell.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. And it's a double edged sword too because it's like why, what are the reasons he's maintaining this privacy? And it's all connected to his, I think being hyper aware that if images of him in Dragon came out at the height of his fame, it could seriously affect him. And based on what happened to him outside of his control, it seems like it very much would have. So and, and also that there was later I, I, I really did the newspapers.com scroll about Paul from, from year to year and later if when he is arrested for the first time in the public eye in, in the early 90s, it's said that he was also arrested for being at a gay porn theater when he was 18 years old. So it's like already I think that there are these indications to him that would have been clear to anyone but that he, he was very out as a young person, but also was aware that this could derail his life. That was the only mention I saw of that first arrest. But you know, it totally tracks Florida in 1970, I believe it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right. And just you know of like a theater being the target of just like a routine sweep that sort of also exists to identify people.

[Jamie Loftus]

And then we'll, we'll get to this later. But why are that so many Sarasota police officers hanging out in Cape Horn theaters, quote unquote undercover.

[Sarah Marshall]

We'll circle back and what's the budget for it? Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Three, three. The when he's arrested in 1991, there were three, three undercover cops in a dark theater. Okay, well, well. So after college he makes all of this experimental queer art in college. The plan is to move to San Francisco with some friends because it's 1970 and that's what you do. But then he goes to a party in la and this is also all unpacked for the first time in the documentary he meets the love of his life. Basically he meets this artist named Guy Brown and they fall in love.

[Sarah Marshall]

I met an artist, his name is Guy. It's just a great diary night.

[Jamie Loftus]

Let me send you a photo of them because they're so sweet together. There's also all of this like Super 8 footage taken by Paul. Like there's an incredible amount of material that he has that just was bruised hanging out at his house. Which by the way, I should confess. Last year when Paul Rubin's house went on the market, I messaged the realtor, said I had $5 million and we did Tour.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's fantastic.

[Jamie Loftus]

I hope he would be okay with that.

[Sarah Marshall]

I feel. I just feel like he would.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just feel like when. When Beautiful. He, like, customized it. He had a Catio. There was like the Pee Wee bike outside. It made me cry. And we just had to pretend to be fabulously wealthy for 20 minutes. It was great. But I've attached here a picture of Peewee of Paul and Guy. Ugh.

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

I know. They're so sweet.

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

So they fall wildly in love and Paul changes his plans. He does not move to. There's all of these ways in which this relationship changes his life in, like, big emotional ways and then also in logistical ways where this is his first time from what we know of, like, really being fully in love. They move in together in my neighborhood in Echo Park. They're extremely in love. And because Paul doesn't move to San Francisco, he stays in LA and starts to try to make it as an actor.

[Sarah Marshall]

Does he want to be a serious.

[Jamie Loftus]

Actor or, like, what's his goal there at the beginning? His goal is to be a. Like an Andy Warhol style actor. Like, he, He. He's going for queer indie darling.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's fan. That's a great place to start, I feel like.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think so too. I mean, I would happily stay there, but I mean, plans change for. For other reasons. But so he's. He. These bit parts. He's just getting by. His boyfriend is a painter. You know, like, it's. It's tough. They. Their relationship is somewhat tumultuous because they're in their 20s. But listening to him talk about. He'd never spoken publicly about Guy, but he attributes these little qualities in the Peewee character to Guy, like the. Some of the mannerisms and some of the. Just some of the ways that Peewee would talk where, I guess, like his boyfriend would eat a cookie and be like. Like buttery. Like, you know, like these little Peewee mannerisms that are pulled from this really sweet relationship that's so beautiful. He comes out to his parents. They are supportive. His whole family is supportive. His sister Abby is also. I. I don't. I mean, I don't know the timeline of her life, but she's an out lesbian. Has been for, I think, since around the same amount of time. So he gets support from his family, he feels support from his. But the relationship doesn't work out, it seems like primarily because they're in their 20s. Paul describes it as he felt his identity getting too enmeshed with another person and kind of panicked, which I can Relate with that. I feel like I've been on both sides of that equation at some point in my 20s.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, that's the circumnavigation of the 20s, I guess.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. So he. He panics, the relationship ends and he's emotionally really up from it. Guy moves to New York and Paul decides that he just wants to strictly focus on his career in acting. He is going to switch after this.

[Sarah Marshall]

Like, Ah, yes, the Down With Love phase.

[Jamie Loftus]

The. Right. The relationship. I recently just saw that movie for the first time.

[Sarah Marshall]

I only remember the outfits. They were incredible.

[Jamie Loftus]

Unbelievable. It's so underrated.

[Sarah Marshall]

They should play it in bars.

[Jamie Loftus]

I feel like they. They really should. It's bars. Need to play more colorful movies. If I see another Marvel movie on.

[Sarah Marshall]

At a bar, If I see another black and white movie on at a bar. By the same token, get over yourself.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right?

[Sarah Marshall]

Get over yourself. Get over yourself.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm not here to exercise my library card. Put on Down With Love. But after this relationship doesn't work out, Paul, there's like a fundamental shift in who he wants to be and how he wants to be. He is like, love sucks. He stops pursuing the queer indie darling. He's gonna start pursuing conventional acting.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, no.

[Jamie Loftus]

And so he goes back in the closet for basically the rest of his life.

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

A quote from the documentary, he says, I was as out as you could be, and then I went back in the closet because I could pass. And so I went to great lengths for many, many years to keep it a secret. And I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but I mean, there were plenty of examples, even before the AIDS crisis of as to, like, why he would choose to do this. There were already, you know, heavy speculation around Rock Hudson, who would have still been alive at the time, around Tab Hunter. And it's sort of like the further his career goes, the more he sort of remains committed to staying in the closet, particularly after the AIDS crisis starts.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, well, and one of the things that I feel like I remember from my childhood watching the celluloid closet on IFC is that there didn't really exist movies until kind of, I guess, the Boys in the Band, where being outed to yourself as a gay character didn't cause you to, like, immediately die by suicide or get murder, you know, and of course, like, if you're at CalArts in the 70s and you're out and you have this whole life, like, you know that in a sense you can exist and, like, you've done it before. But, like, I wasn't there, but, like, it just seems like there was an incredible amount of conscious effort involved all the time.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

And both being out of the closet and being in it and, you know, there's no way out of it, if.

[Jamie Loftus]

Nothing else, that, like, because he decides he wants a conventional career, that he views this as a necessity. And so he stays at la. He has other relationships throughout his life. He doesn't mention any in detail. It's really just Guy. So at around this point, he pivots to comedy. Right. And he starts taking classes at the Groundlings with future greats such as Lorraine Newman, such as Cassandra Peterson, AKA Elvira, AKA one of his best friends in the world, which you're like, of course Peewee and Elvira were best friends. It just makes sense.

[Sarah Marshall]

Just being quietly gay through the whole 80s.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, exactly. And then some. And then, like, most importantly for his, like, future career, Phil Hartman. And one thing I noticed as I was watching this footage in the documentary is, like, even if you're watching some of the most comedically talented people in the entire world watching improv, footage of improv is always embarrassing. Like, even done at the highest level, I was like, I want to cut my head off. This is really hard to look at. But I mean, in short, like, Pee Wee comes out of this training. Peewee comes out of ground Lace as a character. He started developing through improv and then turned into sketch. That's sort of the Groundlings. MO is they'll improvise and then take the good stuff and turn it into sketch. It's an important part of the process.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Well. And do you feel like there's an element, and this is maybe actually a bigger question because I can see it being a part of improv because you, like, presumably need things to lean on and to be able to call forth sometimes, as opposed to just starting from scratch every time you do it. But also, I feel like in sort of, like, I don't know, comedy and theater and circus arts generally, and drag too. It seems like there's just, like, this trend that I feel like is very important as a unifying theme and is something that people really need of. Like, there's all these characters inside me, and I never would have known it until I started talking as one one day, and now it's like they know what to say, and I can just be that person for a while. And that's just sort of a wild thing that. That people can, like, do and share. And I wonder if that's. If that's what this is like.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's different for everybody. I mean, I've definitely, like, found characters through. I've generally found it more through sketch, but everyone has their sort of, like, preferred way of honing a character and. And, yeah, being able to process whatever it may be. I don't know. I'm not good at talking about comedy theory. I just. I just show up.

[Sarah Marshall]

You just do it, you know? Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't like to think about it. I just show up.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's better to do it than to talk about it. I like to think about everything and then I get stressed and have to lie down and take a nap and I miss the thing I was supposed to show up for.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think half of it is, like, don't think too hard about it and be generous with the other people on stage. And if you do that, you will probably be fine.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right? Yeah. Give other people a laugh.

[Jamie Loftus]

And. And Paul's great at that. There's all of these, like, examples of. Especially because he came up as a bit part actor that he's really great at, like, quote, unquote, stealing scenes with a single line, but then getting out of the way and letting the scene continue. An important skill that the worst improvisers in the world don't have.

[Sarah Marshall]

I feel like characters are sort of. I can be extremely therapeutic because it's just like, relentless to be yourself all day. You know, it's because. Nice to be able to be someone else for a while.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. I mean, I think that it seems like Paul really did not want to be framed as a, like, tortured, closeted person. But for what it's worth, like, he basically chooses to publicly live only as Pee Wee and then only as Paul Rubens in private.

[Sarah Marshall]

Kind of like Dolly Parton, in a way.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think so. Yeah. Where it's like. I mean, or Elvira or. I mean.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right. Any of the great drag stars.

[Jamie Loftus]

Absolutely. Where. Yeah. He doesn't speak as himself because it felt. It seems like it. Because it felt vulnerable and uncomfortable and he didn't think it was anyone's business. And that does connect with a lot of these other closeted stars where, like, if you look at the. You probably know more about this than I do, but I was going through a lot of. Have you ever watched Matt Bohm on YouTube? He's.

[Sarah Marshall]

I don't think so.

[Jamie Loftus]

Terrific. I really love his work. And he's done a lot of sort of these biographies of actors who were either. Who were, like, closeted throughout the 20th century. And he did a great Video about Anthony Perkins and this sort of lifelong relationship he had with the Norman character of like, you know, your private self and then the self you can't control and like that sort of repeated. And Peewee is obviously a very different flavor of that. Like, Peewee famously never killed anyone. But they are.

[Sarah Marshall]

They both wear. Wear a little gray jacket sometimes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Boy, do they.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And have this, like, absurdly complicated relationship with their creators.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just recommend Matt Bohm's work in general, but he makes a similar argument for a lot of Rock Hudson's rom com characters where this. There's always this like, level of like, I can't believe I'm getting away with this. All right, back to the act. Like it's, it's maybe framing, but it feels, you know, worth mentioning.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, and that he's like, playing that, you know, famously was in all these movies with Doris Day where they're both 40 years old and, like, trying to decide whether they're gonna get married and jump in the sack or not. And he's like a gay man playing a straight man playing a gay man, Jack Tripper style, so he can like, seduce this virgin. And I don't know, it is fascinating to me too, how much of super straight media of the 20th century just sort of depicts men and women as completely different species who are so incapable of communicating with each other that it's insane that anyone thinks we can mate. We're like pandas in captivity. And then they're like, this is the only way you have to do it. And you can never communicate with. With the opposite sex. You have to marry. And it's like, huh, really?

[Jamie Loftus]

How did it work out for our parents, like, or their parents? I guess, like.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

I, I was like getting into like this sort of side quest of, of learning more about these actors that Paul Rubens was a fan of.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

And then I think he ends up like, really successfully subverting is how like. But how much there is this anecdote about how Rock Hudson, when he was starting to play these like, hyper masculine parts in his 20s, how there was like a director or casting agent or something who is like, you know, who you should look to to figure out how to best perform is Gary Cooper and Spencer Tracy, like, who were both queer. And so it's just like, I don't know, so much of like this hyper straight masculinity is the performance is a.

[Sarah Marshall]

Copy of a performance of a copy of a performance.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. And then Rock Hudson got really good at it. It's just wild. Yeah, if I wild, I mean, depressing.

[Sarah Marshall]

But also, like, also kind of amazing how many layers deep it is just, you know, queer camp portrayals that straight men watch and are like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Almost anything is camp if you dig deep enough.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But so. So the Pee Wee character is developed in this Groundlings, original Groundlings troupe in the, I think, mid to late 70s, which is also when SNL is starting. Lorraine Newman is a founding member of snl. Groundlings is sort of like, starting to become known as a place where SNL actors are found. And so, of course, Paul is like, maybe. Maybe it's gonna be me. He. He works on the peewee character more with Phil Hartman. Phil Hartman, for a while, is his bestie. They have a falling out later that. I do appreciate that Paul is very upfront towards the end of his life about, I think, the things that, like, a lot of performers aren't comfortable talking about, myself included, which is jealousy of your peers. And he, you know, basically he. He and Phil Hartman end up falling out because Phil Hartman left the Pee Wee production for snl and Paul kind of never forgave him for that.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And he. He talks about this like, that this was a repeated pattern early in his career, which is so common, but I don't think a lot of people talk about it. He also is, like, very amenable. Again, this is like, you know, he doesn't deserve a trophy for this. But one of his popular Groundlings characters was. Was an indigenous chief. It was a super racist character. And in the documentary, he was like, that was really racist. And I like, you know, does not make any excuse for it. It's just like, you know, it wasn't unusual for the time, but it's like, I'm. I'm so glad I did not pursue that because it's just embarrassing to watch.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And it's just nice to have somebody not immediately be like, well, it was the time and we were all incapable of not being racist. Don't talk to me about it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Exactly. Like, he's, you know, he's able to see himself with, I think, a lot of clarity, even when he's being difficult and perhaps a little itchy, which is.

[Sarah Marshall]

What you hope to be able to do as you get older to at least sort of understand better why certain things happened.

[Jamie Loftus]

Totally. So he creates the Pee Wee character and it becomes popular in, like, late night LA Groundlings shows. He starts doing it for larger crowds, keeps working on it. He auditions for SNL and loses it to Gilbert Gottfried.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, boy. Who I Know, was only on for like the one cursed season or something. Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

So, yeah, he lost it to that. He was. But I think that again, like, he. That rejection, he's like, all right, I'm gonna double down on Peewee.

[Sarah Marshall]

Nice. You gotta get weirder to survive.

[Jamie Loftus]

Exactly, exactly. So what he does is he puts together this large production that is basically a template for what becomes Pee Wee's Playhouse. There are. It's at the Roxy Theater in la, which I don't think exists anymore. He ha. He combines his friends at the Groundlings. So Phil Hartman, Lynn Stewart, who plays Ms. Yvonne, all these characters that end up being on the playhouse. John B. The genie, Terry the pterodactyl, all of these wonderful characters. Right. And then he goes to. In a way that I feel like really starts connecting the Peewee character with the 80s in general. He goes to Melrose Ave, which is near Groundlings, where there was really vibrant punk culture at the time. He meets Gary. He meets this guy, Gary Panter, who then designs the Pee Wee set. He's this punk artist that designs the Pee Wee set and works with him forever and sort of of ingratiates this weird character who's based on like Howdy doody into the 80s and punk culture. It's very cool. This show becomes super popular. They end up producing a special of it on hbo. It was like the fifth special ever on hbo, which I feel like was.

[Sarah Marshall]

Like leaning a lot on stand up comedy at the time.

[Jamie Loftus]

They were like, yeah, yeah. Because it was like, cheap. And then he also starts appearing again. There's like a. I think there's like only a few examples of him being like, hi, I'm Paul Rubens. I play a character named Pee Wee Herman. He quickly is just like, I'm gonna show up everywhere as Peewee.

[Sarah Marshall]

Which I feel like was confusing to me as a kid and probably a lot of kids at the time where it was like him and Max Headroom were like the two guys who were like, you're like, is it a guy? Is it a what? How does this work? What's reality?

[Jamie Loftus]

I think that that, like, it makes sense and also ends up kind of really working against him later on when it's hard to.

[Sarah Marshall]

You can't get out right.

[Jamie Loftus]

When it's like, when is he Paul Rubens? But he starts making appearances on Letterman. There's all these really funny clips from the 80s of Pee Wee and David Letterman. They're great.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, and what is the special like as like, America's introduction to him?

[Jamie Loftus]

So the special Which I think was, like, fairly popular at the time. But the special was based on this stage show that he'd taken across the country. And it's. You're functionally in Pee Wee's playhouse. It's basically what becomes the set. And the storyline of it is that Pee Wee gets one wish from Jambi the genie, and he wishes that he can fly. But then Ms. Yvonne and Captain Carl, aka Lynn Stewart and Phil Hartman, come over to the playhouse, and Pee wee realizes that Ms. Yvonne is in love with Captain Carl, but she doesn't think that he loves her back. And so Pee Wee gives up his wish and gives it to Ms. Yvonne, and Ms. Yvonne and Captain Carl fall in love. And then Jambi realizes that Pee Wee did the right thing and he will get his wish. And the show ends with Pee Wee flying in this really goofy practical effect where Paul Rubens head is just, like, in this, like, sock, and then there's this tiny body behind it. It's very funny. It's all so, like, practical effect. I mean, it. What takes him a while to figure out is, like, who is this for? I don't think Paul Rubens worries about that too much.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, you shouldn't. If you're making it, that's. But for other people can.

[Jamie Loftus]

I guess the money people are very much trying to figure out who this is for, because it starts as, like, a midnight show. And it does really well as a midnight show. But I think early on, people were like, well, if some things were changed, if some of the, like, humor was adjusted, this could be for kind of anybody. But the early one, it's still. There's still, like, enough innuendo that, like, you probably wouldn't show it to a young kid.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. So it was kind of finding its way to where it ended up. It's just. It's interesting, too. Just like this feels like the kind of thing that, like, nobody obviously would have created in a lab and that no one would have signed off on. It's like, yeah, this is going to be the next big thing. Unless it had become that by itself. The same way that no one in a studio exec position would have watched the Rocky Horror Picture show and been like, this movie is going to become so culturally meaningful that for many years it will be impossible to successfully complete puberty without seeing it in the middle of the night.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, I mean, it's. I feel like he. He very much makes Peewee happen on his own. Like, he doesn't have agents, even at the beginning. Like, it's very, like, his own blood, sweat and tears are making this happen. And it's also a weirdly good moment for alternative comedy because, like, that's technically what SNL was when it started. And, like, Andy Kaufman is still working heavily. Like, it's a pretty good time to be a weirdo. Steve Martin is at, like, the peak of his success, and he event. Eventually it became this big LA thing where, like, Martin Scorsese saw Pee Wee at Midnight. And, like, you know, Steve Martin goes and, like, gives Paul a bit part and, like, he's able to really build a lot because weirdness wasn't completely disencouraged.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right. Or, like, weirdness is sort of, like, going a little bit mainstream maybe with, like. Because Steve Martin especially feels like he could. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. So I think, like, he very much, like, fits in and almost like, like, builds on what was, like, permissible at the time. I don't think that a lot of people, like, are like, you know, at the beginning and for most of his early career, most people aren't like, this is too weird. They're just sort of like, what is this? Like, it's. It's really fun reading early reviews about Peewee and also about Gary Panter because people loved the art in this show and the design and the characters and just like, it's. It seemed like it was gonna work out great, and it. And it did for a long time.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

One thing that is included in the documentary that he only touches on briefly, but Paul mentions that when he takes the show to New York, his whole family saw it and they loved it and all this stuff. But his ex boyfriend, Guy went to see it as well and was able to see the character and was able to, like. Like, hear his pretty obvious influence within the character and liked it. This is now. We're now in the early 80s, so, like, he's working on this and touring this between, like, 81 and 84. And during this time, he learns that Guy is sick and that guy has aids and sees Guy the day he dies, goes over to visit and he just mentions, like, and then I got to see him one last time and. And it was really scary and really sad, and I just, you know, had to act normal. And then he passed away a couple hours after I left. And you're just like, oh, my God, it's so sad.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the. The amount of loss that people survive is. I don't know. I think that is one of the reasons of why to just learn about people's lives to the extent that we have that information of just sort of, it's, it's all worth remembering.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. And that he's still, even though he is not publicly out, he's still very active and, and you know, like a part of the LA queer community. And so he doesn't get into it, but it alludes to obviously, like, losing a lot of friends and being kind of terrified by that. And it seems like he processed this grief of losing guy and of losing other people and of his own anxieties by working, which. Who could relate.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. And then he has this show and this character that's taking off and it does feel kind of like it's handed to you on a silver platter. Like many things, but one of them is, you know, so many opportunities will never stop asking you to do stuff. And if you want to, you can never slow down because if you don't slow down, then grief can't find you. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And like, you were getting at, like, Peewee is a safe place from having to process what's going on with Paul in like, his life, which, yeah, it's like, of course, is, is super complicated.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, and maybe this is a good time to talk for a second about kind of who is Pee Wee, you know, and not necessarily trying to convey his totality, because that's impossible, but sort of like, what, what? Because this is something I've always found really interesting is this sort of like the childlikeness of the character, I guess I would say. You know, but like, like, who is he? Who are you? Pee Wee Herman?

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, they were asking that on the Florida News in 1989. Who is Pee Wee?

[Sarah Marshall]

These three lesbians? I will tell you now.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, to me, Peely is not just the blueprint for SpongeBob SquarePants, which he is.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, my God, he is. Oh, my God.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's. I don't know if it's been said explicitly, but, like, of course it is, but he is a big kid. Like, he's a big kid. I think it's interesting. I, I, I think, think Siskel saying that Pee Wee is teaching kids good lessons is a bit of a cope. Because I think that's like part of his appeal. Like, he's not, he, he's not setting a bad example for kids, but he's not right.

[Sarah Marshall]

He's not Mr. Rogers. He's not gonna tell you how to live your life. Exactly.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's one of the kids. And like, I think that what was so appealing to, to me as a kid was that he, he was a hyper Weird, funny kid with all of the freedom of an adult. Which is also what I loved about spongebob. Except unlike spongebob, Peewee didn't have a job. But Peewee, like, he had this like amazing playhouse where he could do whatever he wanted. He, he lived with his friends. He was beloved by his community. Who are the adults in the room? But they're also like weirdos.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's a little bit like Big Bird maybe.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think there, there's so many like great characters for kids. Yeah. That like sort of fit into this where he's not Mr. Rogers. Because Mr. Rogers is a character who cares for you.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And like Ms. Rachel is a character who cares for you. Like you're with Peewee. You're like a part of his cohort. It almost, it weirdly reminds me of. And this is just because I, I got, I went really deep on this recently for no reason at all other than I visited my nephew. But it reminds me of like the hosts of Blue's Clues. In a way they're better behaved but they're like talking to you like, I need you. I need. I, as a 27 year old man, cannot figure this out in a way that like makes you feel like you're a part of it in a way that makes you feel welcome. And it also reminds me of Blue's Clues in the like treating you as a peer but talking to camera. There's these participatory elements with the secret word in Pee Wee's Playhouse where every day the magic screen prints out the ma. The. The secret word. And anytime you say the secret word, you scream real loud and it's perfect. That's a part of it. And it's like you're, it just draws you in. But I think everything that you like can learn and absorb from Peewee is shown and not told. Which is like the best kind of kids. Which you can't say for Blue's Clues cause it's for younger kids and they need to be told this is a graham cracker. So it's kind of limiting. But Pee Wee is not really like, I think he was just showing you how to be creative and like showing you to see fun everywhere. There's this example of an episode I was thinking of where also baby Natasha Leone is on Pee Wee's Playhouse as like a six year old. But in some Peewee's Playhouse episodes, there are these kids that come over and they're Peewee's friends and they come and hang out at the playhouse. Peewee also has adult Friends who act like adults. Reba, the male lady, is a great example. She's sort of the one person that sees the playhouse as being weird, but it's still an active part of it. There's Ms. Yvonne, the most beautiful lady in town there. There's, like, this whole world and community that Pee Wee is a part of, but he's treated as, like, one of the kids. And there's one episode where the kids trash the playhouse while Pee Wee's gone. And Peewee comes back and he's like, hey, you can't do that. That's my stuff. That's not, you know, and it, like, feels like it's a little bit didactic in a way that the show isn't. Normally, there's my grad school route, but then the kids leave and Pee Wee trashes the house. House. And so it's like you don't learn anything. It's like, it's.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

What you learn is just creativity and how to have fun. And the world of Peewee, especially the TV show, is so effortlessly inclusive in a way that never calls attention to itself. I've seen it compared to, like, a drag queen story hour. And it's. I don't think that that's very far off. You know, you have these, like, characters that are clearly pulled from, like, Paul's story, childhood. But there's something different about them. Like, Laurence Fishburne is, like, one of the most famous people on Phoebe's Playhouse playing Cowboy Curtis. This, like, weird black cowboy. And it's never called attention to. He is just a part of this world. There's people of all body types.

[Sarah Marshall]

Just a cowboy who's. There's, like, some frontier. There's some rangeland out there next to the playhouse.

[Jamie Loftus]

Cowboy Curtis is such an incredible character. There's. And. And also, like, you know, Paul loved pop culture, was, like, a huge collector of pop culture stuff, and tries to get as many people who he feels are, like, connected to things he liked or like to just pop culture in general into the show. And so the original Blacula plays the king of cartoons.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love Blackula.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes. So he. He plays the king of cartoons.

[Sarah Marshall]

Perfect.

[Jamie Loftus]

Which is just incredible. William Marshall. But just the general idea being, like, it was built into the show that it seems like Paul was basically making the show for himself, which means that it was really accessible to parents because he was the age of parents. But it had this, like, really wholesome cat. He's just a big kid.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And he doesn't really learn anything. And he. I like that he's. He's super. I just keep talking about Pee Wee forever. He's, like, really flawed. He gets angry, he throws tantrums. He has enemies and, like, has to work through it. And it also takes a while. And it's just. I don't know, there's no one in the room being like, hey, Peewee, don't do that. Like, right. He learns through, like, interacting. I just, ah.

[Sarah Marshall]

And it does feel like. I mean, I don't. We act like we need to make excuses for children's media. And we're like, well, they're learning things. And it's like, well, but they don't have to learn all the time. You know, that does seem like a lot of learning and it kind of growing up, I feel like. I don't know, there's so. There's so much dorky PSA stuff that I do really love and think probably works pretty well. But there's also, I think, equality when you're a kid or an adolescent, where a lot of the media and the sort of, like, way adults talk to you is geared toward this idea of, like, just follow the rules and everything will be fine. And if you don't follow the rules, then that doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't you do that? There's no reason for you to possibly not do that. And the system works and just do what we tell you to do and it'll be okay. And at a certain age, presumably, unless you are too. Rick, you're too stupid to notice, you realize that the system fails everyone, including you. And that the sort of way that we teach children with an air of like, just simply follow the rules and the rules will take care of you, is to some extent adults lying to them, you know, And I feel like there's. Especially in America and, you know, this is as true in the 80s as it is now. There's something. I'm trying not to be too pretentious and grad schooly about it. I'm really trying. But there is, like, something sort of radically fantastic and also a queer utopia about just like, a world where like, you can be a big kid and learn nothing and like, have a community and sort of exist and have this fantastic space that you were able to decorate exactly the way that you wanted.

[Jamie Loftus]

To, but also you didn't need to, like, change or be different or. Or like, earn it in any way. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

You didn't have to grow. I mean, growth is good, but let's not grow all the time. It's just too much growing.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's the same. I mean, I really do feel like it's like spongebob. So pulls from that playbook.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, he's living independently, but he's a kid. Another episode. Thank you you so much for being here. Thank you to Jamie Loftus for being our wonderful guest. And please check out her work. You'll be so happy you did. Thank you to Miranda Zickler for editing and producing. And thank you to Carolyn Kender for editing and producing. And we will see you soon for part two.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sa.