Ep 69 | This Former Pro Athlete Is on a Mission to SAVE Women's Sports I Jennifer Sey

Summary

Zero Hour with James Poulos: Episode 69 Summary

Episode Title: This Former Pro Athlete Is on a Mission to SAVE Women's Sports
Guest: Jennifer Sey
Release Date: October 20, 2024
Host: Blaze Podcast Network
Podcast Series: Zero Hour with James Poulos

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Introduction

In Episode 69 of Zero Hour with James Poulos, host James Poulos engages in a profound conversation with Jennifer Sey, a multifaceted personality known for her athletic prowess, corporate leadership, and advocacy for women's sports. Jennifer Sey is a retired national champion gymnast and a former CEO of Levi Strauss & Co. She is now spearheading her own clothing brand, XXY Athletics, aimed at preserving the integrity of women's sports.

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Jennifer Sey’s Athletic and Corporate Journey

Jennifer begins by clarifying her athletic background, correcting a previous misstatement about being an Olympian. She emphasizes her true credentials as a seven-time member of the US Women's National Gymnastics Team and her pivotal role in exposing abuse within the sport, notably through the Netflix documentary Athlete A.

"[01:23] Jennifer Sey: Thanks for having me, James. All right, can I say one thing? I was not in fact an Olympian. I was a national champion and seven time national team member."

Transitioning from sports to the corporate realm, Jennifer discusses her tenure at Levi Strauss & Co., where she served as Brand President. Her experience in leading one of America's iconic brands provided her with unique insights into corporate culture and branding strategies.

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The IOC Controversy and Women's Sports

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the recent controversy surrounding the International Olympic Committee (IOC). Jennifer expresses deep concern over the IOC spokesperson's statement claiming, "there's no reliable test to tell the difference between males and females" ([03:43], Jennifer Sey). She challenges this assertion by highlighting existing methods and the importance of maintaining fair competition.

"[04:04] Jennifer Sey: I mean, is he deliberately obtuse or that stupid not to be mean? I mean, I think deliberately obtuse and politically motivated and afraid of the activists."

Jennifer elaborates on historical instances of gender verification in sports, referencing rigorous testing protocols from the past, such as urine tests for drug use during her competitive years in the 1980s. She argues that such measures were essential for fair play and criticizes the IOC's current stance as a step towards favoritism.

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Impact of Current Policies on Female Athletes

Jennifer delves into the implications of the IOC's policies on female athletes, particularly how they undermine the integrity of women's sports. She cites the removal of oversight from the International Boxing Association (IBA) by the IOC, leading to the inclusion of boxers who failed sex eligibility tests in subsequent competitions.

"[07:07] Jennifer Sey: So, are they gonna stop drug testing? Are they gonna stop testing for blood doping? Are they just. Anything goes?"

This lack of stringent testing, according to Jennifer, opens the door for unfair competition and potential abuse, drawing parallels to historical doping scandals. She underscores that these policies not only compromise the fairness of competitions but also perpetuate a system where integrity is sacrificed for political correctness.

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Advocacy and Personal Struggles

Jennifer shares her personal experiences of standing up against systemic issues, both in gymnastics and during the COVID-19 pandemic. She discusses the backlash she faced for advocating against lockdowns and school closures, highlighting the societal pressures and threats that come with taking a stand on contentious issues.

"[11:29] Jennifer Sey: The voicemail. Thirteen in a day."

Her resilience in the face of adversity is evident as she recounts the challenges of being a whistleblower and the emotional toll it has taken. Jennifer emphasizes the importance of speaking out for what she believes is right, despite the personal and professional costs.

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Transition from Corporate America to Entrepreneurship

After leaving Levi Strauss & Co. amid growing ideological clashes, Jennifer explains her transition into entrepreneurship with the launch of XXY Athletics. She critiques the pervasive "woke capitalism" in corporate America, where businesses prioritize social agendas over genuine quality and customer needs.

"[46:50] Jennifer Sey: It's just so phony. And it."

Her new venture, XXY Athletics, is born out of a desire to create high-performance athletic wear that aligns with her values of fairness and integrity in women's sports. Jennifer aims to cater to a demographic that feels alienated by mainstream brands' political stances, offering them quality products without compromising their beliefs.

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Launching XXY Athletics

Jennifer provides an overview of her brand, XXY Athletics, which launched on March 25th. The brand focuses on producing top-tier athletic wear designed specifically for female athletes, addressing the gaps left by mainstream brands like Nike.

"[47:21] Jennifer Sey: And I have my own substack, which I'm delinquent on right now, but I tend to write a lot for it."

She highlights the brand's commitment to quality, low return rates, and the importance of building trust with consumers who prioritize both performance and ethical considerations in their purchases. Jennifer rejects the notion of being part of a "parallel economy," asserting that XXY Athletics is fully integrated into the mainstream market while maintaining its distinct mission.

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Challenges and Future Outlook

Jennifer acknowledges the uphill battle in restructuring perceptions within both the sports and corporate worlds. She anticipates continued resistance and obstacles but remains optimistic about the long-term impact of her efforts.

"[52:33] Unknown Host: A trade worth taking, though, right?"
"[52:35] Jennifer Sey: I love it. I'm having the time of my life, and I'm never having an HR department. That's my commitment to my employees."

Her dedication to authenticity and ethical practices positions XXY Athletics as a beacon for change, aiming to inspire other brands and leaders to prioritize integrity over conformity.

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Conclusion

Episode 69 of Zero Hour with James Poulos offers an insightful exploration into Jennifer Sey's journey from a national champion gymnast to a corporate leader and now an entrepreneur advocating for the sanctity of women's sports. Through candid conversations, Jennifer underscores the importance of fairness, integrity, and courage in the face of systemic challenges. Her story serves as a compelling narrative for listeners interested in sports, corporate ethics, and social justice.

"[52:51] James Polis: May God have mercy on us all."

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Notable Quotes:

• "There's just no reliable test to tell the difference between males and females." — IOC Spokesperson ([03:43], Jennifer Sey)
• "I lost more than I won. I had a few real lucky days where I won important competitions, and I can always accept losing if it's a Fair fight." — Jennifer Sey ([05:23])
• "Jeans are one of the classic American brands, globally dominant for a long time. And just watching San Francisco kind of become what it is now, oh, that's." — Jennifer Sey ([26:15])

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Resources:

• XXY Athletics Website: xx-xyathletics.com
• Alternative URL: thetruthfits.com
• Jennifer Sey’s Substack: sayeverything.com

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For those interested in the intersection of sports, corporate ethics, and social advocacy, this episode provides a compelling narrative and actionable insights from a leader committed to making a difference.

Transcript

[Honda Ad]

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[James Polis]

Founder, CEO and former Olympian Jennifer say She's got the Olympics number and she's got the athletic wear you want to wear. I'm James Polis.

[Unknown Host]

Welcome to Zero Hour. Jennifer say is a retired seven time.

[James Polis]

Member of the US Women's National Gymnastics Team. She wrote bravely about the abuse in gymnastics and produced the Netflix documentary Athlete A. She worked as the brand president of Levi Strauss and company. Yes, the jeans people. And is now the CEO of her own clothing brand, XXY Athletics.

[Unknown Host]

Welcome, Jennifer.

[Jennifer Say]

Thanks for having me, James. All right, can I say one thing? I was not in fact an Olympian. I was a national champion and seven time national team member. But I think my greatest contribution to the sport is whistleblowing on the abuse.

[Unknown Host]

Got it. We will be sure to correct that in post.

[Jennifer Say]

Sorry, I don't like to claim any kind of accolade that I did not.

[Unknown Host]

Well, you know, my real job is to just read the prompter and whatever's there just comes out of here. It's fine, it's fine. I'm slowly becoming a cyborg in spite of.

[Jennifer Say]

I don't want to misrepresent myself.

[Unknown Host]

No, I appreciate that. And I don't want to misrepresent xxxy. So the big debate right now, at least in my own head, is what's the difference between athleisure and athletic wear? Because you're doing the latter, right?

[Jennifer Say]

Well, I like to say athletic wear, yes. Athleisure is a term or was a term that was used very much in the industry and it reflected the turn of events wherein people started to wear, you know, workout clothes in their real life. Not for working out, sort of. The leggings are everywhere.

[Unknown Host]

The post Covid wardrobe, I mean, it.

[Jennifer Say]

Sort of started happening before COVID but it just went bananas and crazy and no one ever got dressed and everybody just wore spandex and black leggings all day long. So athleisure represents that trend and it was always used in the apparel industry, but now it's caught on with regular folks, with everyday people. I like to say athletic wear because athleisure suggests that it's not high performance and our, our product is very high quality and very high performance.

[Unknown Host]

Yes. You can personally be very low performance and still wear the athleisure.

[Jennifer Say]

So you can be. And you can wear low performance clothing. Like, you can wear crappy leggings that bag out. Aren't moisture wicking to lie around and eat Cheetos and watch, you know, Breaking Bad?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, and I'm told, like, those materials might not always be best for, like, the groin area and like, various.

[Jennifer Say]

You want high quality moisture wicking if you're going to work out in it. If you're going to binge Netflix, I guess, you know, wear whatever you want.

[Unknown Host]

All right, we'll get to your brand in a minute, which I can't help but notice you are rocking right now. It looks beautiful.

[Jennifer Say]

Thank you.

[Unknown Host]

And comfy, too. I'm admitting it is comfy. But first, the Olympics.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

What is going on here? Have you ever seen anything like this?

[Jennifer Say]

I swear I'm going to lose my mind. The spokesperson for the IOC just said this morning, there's no reliable test to tell the difference between males and females.

[Unknown Host]

See, because I can think of, like, four or five fairly reliable, perhaps even 100% accuracy tests.

[Jennifer Say]

I mean, is he deliberately obtuse or that stupid not to be mean? I mean, I think deliberately obtuse and politically motivated and afraid of the activists. But for somebody to stand up as a spokesperson for the IOC and say, oh, well, there's just no accurate test is. I mean, I'm gobsmacked. I don't. I don't understand it. And then the other, you know, argument they use is, any test we might do is just too intrusive. Well, I will tell you, as an internationally competitive athlete that competed before this, before, we didn't think the tests were accurate. We were tested regularly for. For drug use. Of course, I was competing in the 80s. Steroid use was prevalent. I suspect it still would be if there wasn't really rigorous testing.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. The Eastern bloc Olympians were also experimenting with some gender identity as a result of.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah, exactly. There was a lot of steroid use in the late 70s and 80s. East German swimmers. Lots of suspicion that some of the gymnasts were using as well. And we had to pee in a cup in front of a person at every national and international competition no one cared about. I didn't even think it was intrusive. I wanted it to be fair. I wanted a fair fight in the competition. I always tell people I lost more than I won. I had a few real lucky days where I won important competitions, and I can always accept losing if it's a Fair fight. So, you know, and I think that the surveys show that something like 85% of female athletes want testing for sex eligibility. They do not think it's intrusive because they too, want a fair fight.

[Unknown Host]

It's the last line of defense, really.

[Jennifer Say]

It's just. So are they gonna stop drug testing? Are they gonna stop testing for blood doping? Are they just gonna. Anything goes?

[Unknown Host]

Well, this is, you know, we'll see what happens. But the IOC walked into this controversy. They knew what they were doing. They knew what was going to happen.

[Jennifer Say]

Well, they actually snatched the oversight from the International Boxing association because each of the sports is governed by its own dedicated governing body. So World athletics governs track and field. They made the right decision to keep women's sports and events at the Olympics female. That decision was made by Sebastian Ko, the Olympic runner from many years ago. World Aquatics has made the same decision. And the iba, I think it's called the iba, International Boxing association, determined that Imani Khalif and the other Taiwanese boxer did not pass the sex eligibility tests at the world championships last year. So they were booted from the competition. They did not challenge the testing results in the court of arbitration, which might suggest they knew.

[Unknown Host]

Seems like that would be.

[Jennifer Say]

Testing results were accurate. And since then, the IOC has snatched regulation and oversight of boxing away from that individual sports governing body. It's the only sport in the Olympics being governed directly by the ioc, and therefore these two boxers have been allowed to compete. And I would just. I also would point out the second boxer, Lin Yuting, I think is the name Taiwanese. In his last match, punched repeatedly. His opponent in the back of the head, rabbit punch. I don't know why I'm learning all this about boxing. I really am not that interested. These are illegal even in MMA fighting.

[Unknown Host]

Because it's so dangerous where two consenting women can beat each other within an issue of their life.

[Jennifer Say]

That's right. That's where it's allowed.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

Well. And. Well, we don't have to go into MMA and Fallon box, but that was many years ago. So this male boxer punches a woman repeatedly while she's up against the ropes with her throat against the rope in the back of the head. Not disqualified.

[Unknown Host]

Craziness.

[Jennifer Say]

So I don't know. It's so retrograde. These female boxers are being told, sit down, shut up, take it. This is what you have to do to be inclusive.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. So one thing that I've noticed really just kind of dominate the whole. Not just this discussion, but across kind of all the sort of political culture war stuff.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Is increasingly people who are divided on these issues actually agree on the facts. And one side says and that's a good thing. And the other side says and that's a bad thing. And so my question for you is like in your community, across the athletic community, what's the split right now between the Olympics is a basket case and that's a good thing versus and that's a bad thing. Is the IOC suffering in its credibility or is it enough of a tipping point that actually there are people saying like, oh no, this is how it should be and this is how it's going to be.

[Jennifer Say]

Okay, I'm gonna take that in two parts. First of all, the IOC has no credibility and hasn't for some time. It's one of the most corrupt organizations that one can imagine. So I find it really hilarious, the commentary in the social media sphere talking about the corrupt IAB and how the IOC had to rescue this organization back. I mean, it doesn't take much googling to find out that the IOC is incredibly corrupt and has been for many decades. So that's a joke. So that's the first thing. All these governing sport bodies are, if not, well, I would argue corrupt. And they do not care about the athletes. They care about the money they can make from sponsorships. And I would cite USA Gymnastics and the USOPC which covered up the abuse by Larry Nassar of hundreds and hundreds of young gymnasts for over 30 years. They covered that up because they didn't want the reputational hit. So they let a supposed doctor abused 12 year olds for over 30 years. I mean, it's disgusting. These governing bodies don't care about the athletes. And until the athletes stand up and say we're not going to take it anymore, they don't do anything. They do not do anything until their hand is forced. As far as the question about what do athletes think? 70% of Americans agree that this is ludicrous, that males should not be able to compete in women's sports, no matter the reason. Whether they are trans identified, whether they have what Kalief likely has, a DSD or a difference in sex development, it doesn't matter. But the trans movement brought us, if you say you're a woman, you're a woman, no questions asked, which is what's allowing for this person with what appears to be a DSD compete against women. Most people agree that it's ridiculous. It doesn't feel like most people agree with me when I stand up and say this, because most people are Silent, because you will get dragged across the Internet. You will get threatening voicemails. You will get people leaving signs on your front door. You will get crazy threatening emails and letters. Emails.

[Unknown Host]

How much of that is happening to you right now?

[Jennifer Say]

The voicemail. Thirteen in a day.

[Unknown Host]

That's a lot of voicemails at a time when nobody likes to leave voicemails.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. Who talks on the phone and leaves voicemails? I have them blocked now, so it's not a problem. But, you know, I've stood up for things that I care about many times in my life at this point. You know, I was one of the early whistleblowers on abuse in gymnastics. The first one, actually. I was an early dissenter during the COVID years, and that was pretty brutal. But this is like nothing I've experienced. The people, the way that people will come after you. It's rabid, it's cruel, it's nonsensical. Doesn't make any sense.

[Unknown Host]

Gonna get worse before it gets better.

[Jennifer Say]

It is gonna get worse before. I know. I think people. You know, there's little decisions that have gone kind of the way of sanity. The naia, which is a sport governing body that actually did do the right thing, they sort of governed collegiate club sports, kind of lower level, below D3, and they made the decision in April to say women's sports are for those born female only. And the men's sports within the NAIA are open. That category is open. Anyone can compete. It's a very common sense, logical decision. And, you know, we cheered for that. The new Title IX rewrite has been blocked in over 20 states. That's a good thing. But it just seems as soon as one thing goes the right direction, the other side pulls even harder. Because, like I said, the head of the IOC or the IOC spokesperson stood up this morning and said, there's just no reliable test. There's just nothing we can do. So we've got to let males compete in women's sport. So I think it's going to be a very long road ahead. I really do.

[Unknown Host]

I'm from la. The Olympics is coming.

[Jennifer Say]

Oh, right. Next one.

[Unknown Host]

They're already starting to make, like, initial preparations and try to make some show of, like, oh, it's not going to look as disgusting and nasty as it does right now.

[Jennifer Say]

Louisiana is not going to.

[Unknown Host]

Right. So all this is going to come right home to the US and it's going to be happening on our soil.

[Jennifer Say]

I have to believe that truth always outs in the end and that we will be gripped with some degree of common sense at some point, but I really do think it's very far away. I think the Title IX decision could have an impact. I think ultimately the USOPC has to make the right decision because the NCAA has said they'll follow their lead. But, you know, Title IX was rewritten and just sort of snuck in in April by the Biden administration. And basically Title IX was created to protect women's sex based rights in the education system. I mean, that's the whole purpose of it. And within the rewrite of Title ix, it replaces essentially sex based rights with gender identity based rights.

[Unknown Host]

Why do you think so many women have been willing that away?

[Jennifer Say]

Well, I think we're taught to be sort of inclusive and empathetic, and I think to some extent that's being weaponized against us. Look, I, as a child went along with decisions made by the adults in my life that went against my own best interest. And I think that girls are that way naturally. And then I think it is, you know, culturally, you know, put upon them. And they want to be nice. We all want to be nice. And I except me anymore. I'm done being nice. Because you cannot ask a woman to put herself in a boxing ring with a male that punches with 162% more force that punches her in the back of the head and cheats. You cannot ask us to accept that. I thought we've come too far to go back now. And so, you know, I think eventually women will find the courage, screw up the courage and do this, and we'll do it together. But I do think it'll take a long, long time.

[James Polis]

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[Unknown Host]

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[James Polis]

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[Unknown Host]

Well, women have become more prominent in sports. There's no two ways about that. And also in corporate life, where you have a long track record of success and maybe bumping up against some of these same kinds of issues in different garbage. You were with Levi's rose in the ranks right there in San Francisco. I'm an East Bay boy, so I always keep one eye on that strange and weird city. And I'm curious, LA is looking pretty rough right now. San Francisco is a disaster area. I mean, this has been going on for years. It seems like there's no end in sight. Walk us through your experience. As someone with the background that you had, facing those kinds of controversies around abuse and everything, you kind of exit sports land in, in high powered corporate America. I mean, Levi is one of the classic American brands, globally dominant for a long time. And just watching San Francisco kind of become what it is now, oh, that's.

[Jennifer Say]

A lot packed in there. I moved to San Francisco in 1992. I grew up in Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia, and then I went to school at Stanford. I was very lucky to get to attend Stanford. And that's about a half hour south of San Francisco. And I moved to the city in 1992 and it was the best place I'd ever been. I always say to people, if you ever felt like a weirdo, San Francisco was the place for you. And I was a weirdo. You know, I was a scrawny kid doing gymnastics. I was super nerdy. I mean, I was just always, I always felt like an outcast. I wasn't at school full time. I mean, I looked 12 when I was 18. You know, I just didn't really Fit in. And I spent my life in the gym. And so, you know, I felt like a weirdo. Maybe for different reasons than other people that moved to San Francisco. But we were united in our weirdo ness and being outsiders. And it was amazing. It was before, you know, tech boom, one, two or three. So you could live there with three roommates and it was affordable in your 20s. I mean, I had to eat a lot of hot dogs at, you know, free happy hour nights. But you could do it. You could totally do it. I think my rent was like $250 when I moved there. I lived in the Haight Ashbury. I would have called myself a left of, left of center Democrat up until Covid, basically.

[Unknown Host]

Wow.

[Jennifer Say]

So I loved the free spirited nature. I loved the hippies, I loved the skaters, I loved the raves. It was rave Central in the 90s in San Francisco.

[Unknown Host]

Still had punks running around.

[Jennifer Say]

We had all of it. It was so cool. Slowly but surely that disappeared and it became tech bros. And that was it. You know, it started to happen in the 90s, but then there was like a bust and it kind of got back its life again. And then in the 2000s, I mean it was just, it became the most utterly conformist place that you can imagine. No, you could not, you know, have one sort of differing thought. I mean this was really cemented during COVID but it was happening throughout the 2010s and there were no interesting people there anymore. You know, it was 35 year old Google millionaires as far as the eye could see in Tesla's. No shade to Elon. But you know, it just become like, became like this douchey, can I say that? You know, costume. Yeah, essentially.

[Unknown Host]

And then one day they all wore.

[Jennifer Say]

Airbirds and drove a Tesla and wore khakis in a Patagonia place.

[Unknown Host]

And there's still, you know, still lots of those guys. But we also have people in sex cults and blue hairs and trans, you know, polycules and all the rest.

[Jennifer Say]

Yes, they're often the same groups like the, I mean, if Sam Bankman Fried is any indication, the polycules and the, you know, billionaires, a lot of that.

[Unknown Host]

Stuff grew out of these really conformist. Really sort of every guy looks the same sort of tech. Tech firms.

[Jennifer Say]

Right. It's sort of like a push back against that. Well, I think a lot of the tech people now, I'm like wandering, theoretically wandering through the wilderness here. But they were nerdy growing up. You know, these are smart kids and so they. And now they're Sort of the cool kids, right? They have millions of dollars, they're making lots of money, and there's just an arrogance to the city that is gross now. It's just they're so convinced that what they think and how they live is correct. And if anyone challenges it, you know, they're an alt right, fascist, Christian nationalist, QAnon, whatever. I've been called all these names. So they are so convinced. And they never step outside of this bubble except to go to places that they think are in the middle of the country, but they're places like Sun Valley and Aspen and these havens for the very, very wealthy. They live in this. They just, they're. They. They do what CNN tells them to do. If the New York Times has a headline about it, that's what they think. And there are no questions asked about the far left wing of the Democratic Party platform. And so for me, I'd mostly bought into it, although I would like to think that I had always thought for myself and been willing to stand apart and challenge. But Covid just broke any illusion I might have had about the Democratic Party actually standing for the values, they said.

[Unknown Host]

What was the straw that broke the camel's back?

[Jennifer Say]

Was it the locking, locking me in my house?

[Unknown Host]

Misinformation, sort of punishing?

[Jennifer Say]

Well, all of it. But literally, from day one, my husband and I were like, hell, no, you cannot lock us in our homes. You cannot tell us we can't send our kids to school. I mean, you can. They did. Yeah, watch us. But these are the most illiberal anti freedom policies I can imagine. And they were executed with the most vim and vigor in deep blue cities and states. I mean, the schools in San Francisco were closed for 19 months, the public schools, all while the very wealthiest screaming out their windows to stay home, to stay safe, were sending their own children to $70,000 a year private schools. The hypocrisy was too much for me to bear.

[Unknown Host]

It was a lot for. I mean, it was. People's brains really broke and you could watch it happen. You could watch people sort of losing their, you know, their will to live almost. And I mean, I think it was also terrible that many people just don't even want to remember that it happened.

[Jennifer Say]

That is the worst. I don't know if it's shame for their own behavior. Yeah, I don't actually think they feel shame. I think there's sort of a few camps here. There are the people that forgot that they were the ones yelling at everybody to wear three masks and stay home. Forever. They forgot they saw the light at some point, and they now believe that they were sort of on the right side of it.

[Unknown Host]

They microdosed enough to forget.

[Jennifer Say]

Exactly. Ayahuasca, I think, is maybe what they have been doing. Or there is a percentage, 10 to 20%, I would argue, that stands by it and still thinks we didn't lock down hard enough. I mean, there's people who will say, there were no lockdowns. We couldn't do anything for two weeks. I'm like, I don't know what place you lived. I lived in San Francisco, where playgrounds were closed for 10 months.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. No, it was ridiculous.

[Jennifer Say]

And the facts are clear when it comes to children, which I think is the thing that enraged me the most, because children are the most vulnerable among us.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. They invented a new way to abuse kids, many ways.

[Jennifer Say]

Lock them in their homes, double mask a toddler who's learning to speak, make them sit 10ft apart at lunch, outside in the rain to keep us safe, all while adults are going to bars, packed stadiums, strip clubs in San Francisco, sex clubs for your polycule. That's all happening while children can't go to school. And then when they do experience such disrupted schooling that no learning could possibly occur.

[Unknown Host]

Right, yeah. And now you look at San Francisco and where are the kids? Well, just about gone.

[Jennifer Say]

Well, they're gone. Yeah. It's a good point. And San Francisco always had the lowest percentage of children of any major city. It's not very child friendly, as you might imagine. It's a playground for the rich who don't have children or maybe have one that they pay a lot of money for very late in life and treat sort of like an accessory and kind of farm out all the labor to staff.

[Unknown Host]

Yes. Vanity. Trans kid.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's a very, very low percentage of children and an even lower percentage that attend public schools. So. Lowest percentage of kids in public schools in the country as well. So what do these people care about public school children, 60% of whom are at or below the poverty line? They didn't care. But what makes me the most angry is these are the people that tell you we're the good ones, we're the caring ones, we're the lefties. We want to lift everybody up while putting a boot on their neck, essentially.

[Unknown Host]

And meanwhile, you're going through this having been at Levi's, one of the great American brands that really globally dominate in many ways. What could be more American than blue jeans? And just really, I mean, I always go back and remember the opioneers ad that Levi's did, and it was like.

[Jennifer Say]

Can we talk about that ad?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, of course.

[Jennifer Say]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

That is so interesting. That ad is probably the reason I became the cmo. Not probably. It is the reason I became the Chief Marketing officer because it was such a failure. And you remember it.

[Unknown Host]

That's crazy.

[Jennifer Say]

Isn't it funny? It did so poorly.

[Unknown Host]

It didn't look like a failure.

[Jennifer Say]

It was an awful failure. Nobody liked it. It was dark and dirty and not very stylish, and the brand had been like this for a really long time, and it was grungy and angry and disaffected, and it was a failure. And we had a relatively new CEO at the time, and he knew that we were aligned in terms of what we thought the brand should be and could be. And so he tapped me, asked me to move into That's. Into the Chief Marketing Officer role. And I will also tell you the last time I was here, or no, two times ago, I was on Glenn Beck's show. And he also raised this ad with me, and he said, I have beef to pick with you because you did that ad. And that's what made me want to start my own denim brand, on which I lost a ton of money.

[Unknown Host]

Unbelievable.

[Jennifer Say]

And I said, your beef is not with me. I hated that ad.

[Honda Ad]

Unbelievable.

[James Polis]

I don't know.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, maybe, you know, I'm a disaffected East Bay guy.

[Jennifer Say]

Were you a creative in an ad agency?

[Unknown Host]

No.

[James Polis]

Never.

[Unknown Host]

Never made it into ad agency. I had a roommate who was at Ogilvy for a while.

[Honda Ad]

Okay.

[Jennifer Say]

The ad agency creatives all cite that ad as like, one of the best of all time. And it's really hard to describe how bad it was for business.

[Unknown Host]

That's wild. It felt, like, really authentic and inspiring at the time. And maybe that was just a function of kind of where I felt like the rest of the culture was at. But what's interesting to me now, having sort of come of age in the 90s or whatever, is there's this huge 90s resurgence, and there's this big wave. I mean, you see it in the fashion. It's not just the denim. It's everywhere. And seeing teenagers dressed like it's the 90s and talking, it's kind of like a weird simulation moment for me. But I do think that there is just beyond that generational sort of revisitation, there is an overarching kind of spirit of longing now taking place in America. I mean, you saw it with the little discourse around the Olympic uniforms, the Ralph Lauren, like, yes, classic Americana. Where did it go? It can't just be Lana Del Rey. We need to bring this energy back. I don't know. Did you feel like.

[Jennifer Say]

I don't observe that right now. In fact, I feel like there's a real, not very subtle hatred of America.

[Unknown Host]

In which case, why would you sort of certainly dominant. But I do think that sort of people who are old enough to remember that it wasn't always this way and don't feel some kind of weird spiritual guilt leading them to feel like maybe.

[Jennifer Say]

We need to bring it back, we.

[Unknown Host]

Need to destroy America. Right? Yeah. That longing to bring it back, the longing for like, you know, there was this was going through like the Victoria's Secret discourse and the Abercrombie discourse. Can't we just have like good looking people who are athletic, like showing us kind of an example of how we can live our everyday lives?

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah, we always take things too far. I mean, you know, I'll address directly the body positivity movement, which definitely has informed the brands that you just mentioned, Victoria's Secret and their choices, which have not been successful for them. Look, I don't think it was great, you know, in the 80s and 90s that as a young woman, girl, the image I saw in advertising everywhere, film entertainment of what it was to be an attractive woman was, you know, 510 and 102 pounds. That was not a healthy image.

[Unknown Host]

I was fairly unattainable for.

[Jennifer Say]

Fairly unattainable for most people. And I was anorexic, more from the sport than from that. But I thought it was a really good thing when in the early 2010s, sort of the body positivity movement hit the scene and Dove, you know, Dove, the brand, I think, really took that mainstream with their real beauty campaign. I thought it was really positive. It was sort of real looking women, attractive, unretouched, different body shapes. That was really positive. Cut to 10 years later and you have people that weigh 450 pounds on the COVID of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Jennifer Say]

Why did we have to take it that far?

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Jennifer Say]

And we have, you know, healthy at any size. No, that's as big of a lie as the IOC spokesperson saying there's just no reliable test for male and female. And I can't believe the culture embraces these lies. It's such a disservice to people to say you at £400 will have no health impact based on this, you know, fantasy. It's a fantasy. And you look, every person has value. We shouldn't be cruel. We shouldn't be mean. But I think it's cruel to pretend that that person will have a long life.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, well, I mean, just in la, you know, I've seen this, like, darkly comic trend unfold where, you know, young, young, ish or young women, friends, colleagues who are kind of in that social media influencer world. You know, they're like, like, I'm too fat to be a model on the Internet, but I'm not fat enough to be a model on the Internet. So, like, where's the representation for just like, you know, you go back to the 90s and it wasn't all supermodels. There was this. You could be a kind of, like, normal person and be seen as someone who is fashionable, someone who is beautiful, someone who is charismatic, and that's kind of like been polarized away.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah, but you had, at the same time, you had, you know, Abercrombie on the rise. It was very sort of Aryan chic, I might call it. And there were all sorts of lawsuits because he only hired people that looked like the people in the ads. And you were ruled out automatically if you were black or if you weighed more than a pound. Not great.

[Unknown Host]

No question.

[Jennifer Say]

So that brand then took a hit, as they should have, and yet then they come back trying to chase the current trend of, you know, body positivity. It's just like, just, what are we doing? Why can't we just be normal? Yeah, why can't we be normal?

[Unknown Host]

How much of this do you think is, you know, not ideological only, but is just kind of this weird psychosis that large corporations get into? Where?

[Jennifer Say]

Oh, well, all of it in the culture is ideological, I believe. I think what's happening in corporations, I call it woke capitalism. You know, most of these companies, these fashion companies are coastal. They're New York, San Francisco, Louisiana. You've got some in the Pacific Northwest, you know, Nike, et cetera. You've got some in the Northeast. Like a lot of the shoe brands are up there, but they're all coastal. And I think this idea, you know, it used to be greed was good. You know, it was. You could be revered for having lots of money and everybody assumed you were a Republican if you went into business. That was just the assumption. Well, now privilege is bad. And so all of these corporate leaders are disavowing their privilege and they're pretending they never went into it for the money. They went into it because this is how they could affect change.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[Jennifer Say]

And they're lying to themselves. They believe it Although the money's always gonna trump the change. So that's when this is all gonna shift, when they stop making money. They're also trying to please their kids. Their kids go to these $70,000 a year private schools where everyone's a they and their kids are very woke. And they would be critical of their parents for holding these jobs if their parents didn't also pretend to be social justice warriors. But the kids also want all the privileges that come with the job. So everybody's just a big hypocrite right now. A lot of people believe the companies are sort of incentivized to do this by the blackrocks of the world. That may be true, but at the end of the day, those people want to make money too.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

This is just a big money maker. It's a marketing strategy.

[Unknown Host]

Well, and we've seen, you know, ESG that's rolled back.

[Jennifer Say]

ESG is rolling back.

[Unknown Host]

We'll see how far it goes.

[Jennifer Say]

DEI is starting to roll back. I mean, even before DEI was sort of aggressively and overtly removed from some organizations, those people were getting laid off right and left. Because when the companies are struggling and they have to cut costs, the first place they look is headcount. And the first area they look is, are you generating revenue? And I will tell you, HR more broadly is not generating revenue. They're just going around and policing your language and making you do all these weird trainings. That's it. So they're actually the opposite of generating revenue because they're taking you away from your actual job to sit in trainings about how not to be racist.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

So those people have been getting laid off anyway. But now companies are actually overtly saying, we're not doing this anymore. Small, but it's happening. And then you have the Bud Lights and the targets of the world who again, are just quietly rolling back some of the marketing efforts around Pride and, you know, and all of these things because they took a hit to the wallet. You know, look, Bud Light went from the number one share beer brand to number three.

[Unknown Host]

Number three.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Because Modelo's on top now.

[Jennifer Say]

Modelo's on top. And who's next? Miller, of course.

[Unknown Host]

I think so. Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

The other leading brand is number two.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. And then Target, which is, you know, had a pride campaign for many, many years. And we did, too, at Levi's, and everybody was fine with rainbow T shirts. Everybody was fine with that. I don't think anybody cared at all. Yay. Everybody's included. That was fine. But when they did A product collection featuring tuck friendly bathing suits for young women. Parents were like, yeah, no, I've had enough now. And it did impact their bottom line. And they pulled way back this year. So it's a much more anodyne. Or it was in June, a much more anodyne collection. And it wasn't even in all stores. But they're never going to admit they pulled back because it hit the bottom line. No one's going to admit it because then it proves they never cared about that shit anyway, that it was all a marketing strategy. So I think a lot of companies will start to quietly pull back. But it's just important to remember these people, they live in such a bubble. I mean, if I go back to the Bud Light scenario, what was the Alyssa, I can't remember her last name. The VP of marketing? I mean, she said, yeah, she said, you know, this is an Ivy League trained, you know, New York denizen. Everybody she knows agrees with her. She doesn't really think beyond whatever headline she read in the New York Times to question or challenge anything. And she said a few days before that Dylan Mulvaney campaign ran, she said, I don't. Basically, we don't like our current customer. He's fratty and kind of a jerk. I'm paraphrasing. So we're gonna get a new one.

[Unknown Host]

Paraphrasing. Slightly.

[Jennifer Say]

Slightly. Not. Not a ton. Right. We're gonna get a new one. I mean, first of all, that you would feel empowered to say something like that and be critical of your consumers who hand good money over to buy your product and then to actually do it. Just dismiss them and, you know, install a new kind of marketing approach meant to appeal to a new consumer. Your friends, who are never going to drink this garbage beer anyway.

[Unknown Host]

Right? Yeah. Are you still in San Francisco?

[Jennifer Say]

No, I live in Denver.

[Unknown Host]

There you go.

[Jennifer Say]

Which is also very blue, but very. It feels very sane to me. There's a real libertarian streak in Colorado. Like a live and let live.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Anywhere there are mountains, it can only get so, you know, airy.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. I mean, our governor, he's turned the state deep, deep blue.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

I would also argue he was the best Democratic governor during COVID I mean, we moved there during COVID just so that our kids could go to school.

[Unknown Host]

That's important. And it buys officials a lot of goodwill.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. So, yeah. I'm not gonna hate on Polis. I mean, I don't like some of what he does, but I'm not gonna hate on him. We literally chose it. Cause the schools were open.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. So you're out of Levi's, you're out of San Francisco. I mean, all that you've described really amounts to. There's an opening. There's an opening for new entrants into. Whether it's fashion, whether it's sort of sports and entertainment. The legacy players, some of them are still around, Some of them are still just kind of cycling through these weird internal struggles about ideology. You are stepping forward with xxxy and you are kind of wearing your corporate identity on your sleeve. Like, literally.

[Jennifer Say]

I am. So I resigned from Levi's in the spring of 22, in February of 22. And I just sort of took a break. I felt literally chased out of San Francisco. Friends I had had for 30 years don't speak to me anymore because I said schools need to be open.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

Wow. That was enough.

[Honda Ad]

That was it.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. That was the nail in my coffin. I think it. Yeah, it's funny. I'm too horrible to talk to. And, you know, it used to upset me a lot until I had the realization, you know what? I think you're horrible because you sent your kid to private school while screaming at everybody else, the poor people that they were not allowed to. So I'm gonna flip this on you a little bit. Cause I actually disapprove of your actions. So there we're even. So I took a little break. I wrote a book. I'm making a movie called Generation Covid. So it wasn't really much of a break, as you might imagine. And then I decided, okay, it's time to get back to work. I have to work. I have four kids. I'm the breadwinner in the family. And I started interviewing at large companies, big established brands, CEO roles. And I was asked in one interview with an $8 billion company if I was willing to apologize for what I'd done.

[Unknown Host]

Of course.

[Jennifer Say]

And I was like.

[Unknown Host]

Which was what exactly? Which was leave San Francisco during COVID.

[Jennifer Say]

No, it was advocate. I was, you know, I was against lockdowns and closed schools. That required an apology.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. In her mind, I was an anti masker, anti vaxxer, whatever their names are. And she asked if I would apologize publicly. Now, this was my eighth interview out of eight. It was the last one. She was the HR representative, not surprisingly. And this was 2023. Like, we knew that the closed schools were both ineffective and harmful at this point.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, no, the science was settled.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah, the science was settled on this. There had been headline the New York Times telling us it was okay to Talk about it. It was now permitted to say, learning loss is real. You know, poor children, black children, those, you know, disproportionately in public schools were harmed the most. We were allowed to say all these things now, but an apology was required from me and I was, you know, a little flummoxed. But I realized in that moment that the apology was really about not reading the script that I was given.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Jennifer Say]

And you don't get to be an executive in legacy corporations if you don't read the script.

[Unknown Host]

That's right.

[Jennifer Say]

And I'd never read the script. I always, you know, I've written two books. I wrote them myself. People always ask me who ghost wrote it. No one. I sat and I did the work. I write my own speeches, emails, and it sounds crazy, but I don't think I know another executive. And I know a lot of them that write their own talks, that write their own, even emails. I mean, when I say emails, I don't mean like the casual jot one off, but like to the salesforce, they don't write those themselves.

[Unknown Host]

How long do you think that can last? That culture of just like complete CEO disconnect and just kind of like, you know, robotically performing the duties and meanwhile your soul is somewhere else entirely?

[Jennifer Say]

I think it can last. I do.

[James Polis]

We're about to find out.

[Jennifer Say]

I don't really believe in karma. I think it can last. But I do think there will be companies that set themselves apart because of a clear vision from not just the CEO, but the other leaders in the organization and a real passion and connection to. And it doesn't have to be a cause. I mean, it could just be a product that they feel really passionate about making amazing. I mean, and so I just think those companies are going to set themselves apart, but I think there's always going to be room for look to make it in corporate America. You don't really have to be that good at anything. You have to sort of be able to kind of go invisibly through the hallways and never offend anyone. And then you're the last man standing.

[Unknown Host]

Right?

[Jennifer Say]

That's most people. I mean, I don't care. These are my people. I spent 35 years around them. And I did not just work at Levi's. I worked at the Gap for three years and I worked at a very large ad agency before that. They're chameleons. They don't know what they think. They don't really have opinions. They think what they're told to think and they don't ever Offend anyone. And they say stuff that is supposed to seem profound. Like, I don't know, we need to take a step back and stare this down and not rush to make a decision. I mean, they get ahead by never making a decision.

[Unknown Host]

Really backwards.

[Jennifer Say]

That's how they get ahead. Because if you never make a decision, you can't be held accountable for anything.

[Unknown Host]

So that was.

[Jennifer Say]

This is Kamala, too. Sorry.

[James Polis]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

No, this is good.

[Jennifer Say]

This is.

[Unknown Host]

She's the embodiment of this.

[Jennifer Say]

I've been thinking about this lately, because everybody's so, you know, everybody. Her word salads. Everybody's, you know, cutting together these videos and splashing them all over the place online. Like, oh, it's so funny. She doesn't make any sense. It's by design.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

If you don't say anything and you don't make any commitments, you can't be held to account. It's on purpose. This. It's not stupidity. It's purposeful.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. That's diabolical. Okay, so that was.

[Jennifer Say]

Sorry, I got out.

[Unknown Host]

No, no, no. This is good. So that was door number one eight interviews, top companies.

[Jennifer Say]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

You looked at door number one, and you're like, I'm gonna do door number two.

[Jennifer Say]

That's right. And I said. I thought, well, I'll probably never get a job in a big company anyway. I'm certainly not gonna bend a knee the way they're asking me to bend a knee. I guess I'm gonna have to start my own thing. Which was not, you know, what I had in mind for the last, last 10, 15, 20 years of my career. I'm 55. This is not what I thought I would be doing. I liked working in an existing corporate structure. And even though most people are the kind that I said, if you're not. That you can set yourself apart, unless you push too hard and have too many opinions, then they take you out behind the barn. Yeah. So I realized corporate America was not very fond of me because I deviated from. From the script. And I had this idea. Cause I was so distraught by this woke capitalism that I described. Because it's so phony.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Say]

It's just so phony. And it.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, phonies are welcome if you say the words.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. But there's, you know, people in the organization that feel left behind by it. There's consumers that feel, you know, pushed away by it, but they don't feel like they have any other choices for any other products to buy. So I thought if I could take my background as an athlete, a high Level athlete, a fashion executive for one of the most beloved brands in the world. I'll make great product and my penchant for being willing to say things that are true but perhaps inconvenient. Maybe there's a brand there.

[Unknown Host]

Maybe so.

[Jennifer Say]

So I thought of this with a friend of mine who now works with the company, Brett Craig. And we thought of this idea for a brand that really stands up for female athletes. Because all these brands out there, like Nike, they do Women's History Month campaigns, they pretend to stand up for women athletes, but no one will touch this issue with a ten foot pole.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so XXXY chromosomes.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And what do you got? You got the jacket which you're wearing now, Is it full line?

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah, it's a tight line because we're getting started. We want to see what works before we grow. So yeah, we launched March 25th, so it's really only four months.

[Unknown Host]

Oh wow.

[Jennifer Say]

Didn't realize it's super new. Got it. We launched with cotton product graphic tee sweats. Like I'm wearing the sweatshirt. And then we quickly follow that up with performance products. So we have leggings and bike shorts and moisture wicking fabrics for men and for women, mostly women, it's about 70, 30 men's. Women's. Although men are leaning in.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jennifer Say]

They want it too. Because it's really about asserting what is true and refusing to kind of further the lie that there is no accuracy test to determine who is male and female. Men want to weigh in on that too.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think for a lot of, a lot of people who are interested in sort of shopping that space.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

It feels like, you know, their door number one is the big domestic corporate companies and door number two is like order it from China, open the bag, smell the toxic chemicals, it falls apart in two weeks.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So you're, you know, you're offering something just at that level that's totally different.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah. And you know, I guess what we're doing is generally grouped in the parallel economy. Have you heard this term? I don't like the term because it suggests we're like second class citizens. I'm not parallel. I'm just in the economy and there's a lot of Americans, more than 50% that agree with us that women's sports should be for women only. So how am I the parallel if you don't think that you're parallel? Right. So I sort of reject the term. I know a lot of my kind of brands in my space embrace it. I guess it feels a Little rebellious, a little bit. I don't know. So I just.

[Unknown Host]

Perpendicular economy that really.

[Jennifer Say]

I just demand to be. I just don't want to be relegated to the corner. Nobody puts baby in a corner. We're making world class products. I think world class marketing and it's a message that resonates with people. So there's nothing parallel about it. I do think there are a lot of brands in this parallel economy space that have seen an opportunity to appeal to those who feel pushed away by the mainstream, but they aren't making world class product.

[Unknown Host]

Right. And so I think consumers, customers would be customers. The hesitancy there is. How do I know that this thing's actually good? How do I know it's good and not? And you know, you've got the pedigree and you've not just on the athletic side but also on the apparel side.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And I think that's important.

[Jennifer Say]

Yeah, it's not a gimmick. You know, we took our time to develop the product. Well, we went really fast, but we were very disciplined about the standards that we were going to uphold. Not just in terms of the quality and the fit and the feel or the hand feel of the product, but where we make the product as well. Although it's not in the usa. And I'll explain that if you want me to because some people get mad at us for that, but the people that get mad at us for that are the haters. They're just trying to look for something anyway. But yeah, it's terrific product and people, once they try it, because they may have that hesitation, you might feel like Lulu doesn't align with my values, but what choice do I have? The leggings are great, but once our returns are less than 5%, which is incredibly low for a women's apparel brand available only online, average is like 25 to 30%. So I think they try the product, you know, they come to us for the mission of the brand. They stay because the product is really outstanding.

[Unknown Host]

So where can they find the clothes and where can they find you?

[Jennifer Say]

So our website is xx-xyathletics.com or you can use our vanity URL, which is thetruthfits.com I have my own website, say everything.com S E Y. S E Y. That's my name. Yeah. And my own substack, which I'm delinquent on right now, but I tend to write a lot for it.

[Unknown Host]

That's the point of having a substack. Right. Is to always be delinquent.

[Jennifer Say]

That's true. I'm pretty good. I've been asked to write a lot of stuff for other outlets, so that's why I'm falling behind on my own. So, anyway. But, yeah, it's going really well. We're only four months in. People seem to really like it. I'm excited. Somebody told me before I launched the brand, your best day is going to be so much better than any day you ever had at a company owned by someone else. And your worst day is going to be so much worse. And that is all a thousand percent true.

[Unknown Host]

A trade worth taking, though, right?

[Jennifer Say]

I love it. I'm having the time of my life, and I'm never having an HR department. That's my commitment to my employees.

[Unknown Host]

Amen. Well, huge congratulations.

[Jennifer Say]

Thank you.

[Unknown Host]

Jennifer Tsay will be watching, and we'll be shopping.

[Jennifer Say]

Awesome. Thanks, James.

[Unknown Host]

All right, that's all the time we got. Till next time around. I'm James Polis. This is Zero Hour.

[James Polis]

May God have mercy on us all.