Ep 80 | Is RFK Jr. Making Environmentalism a Conservative Issue? I Benji Backer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Zero Hour with James Poulos
Episode: Ep 80 | Is RFK Jr. Making Environmentalism a Conservative Issue? | Featuring Benji Backer
Release Date: January 13, 2025

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Introduction and Topic Overview

In Episode 80 of Zero Hour with James Poulos, host James Poulos engages in a thought-provoking discussion with Benji Backer, the founder of the largest conservative youth environmental organization in the United States and author of Conservative Environmentalism. The episode delves into the evolving landscape of environmentalism in America, examining its decline in bipartisan support and exploring how figures like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. are reshaping environmental discourse within conservative circles.

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Decline of Environmentalism in America

James opens the conversation by highlighting a significant shift in American environmentalism. Historically, environmental issues enjoyed broad bipartisan support, with Benji Backer noting, “80% of Americans self-identified as environmentalists in 1990... today that number is 38%” (02:22). This decline is attributed to the politicization of environmental topics and the influence of high-profile activists like Greta Thunberg and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC), who, according to Backer, “made environmentalism a Trojan horse for other ideas” (02:09).

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RFK Jr.’s Role in Conservative Environmentalism

A central theme of the episode is Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s (RFK Jr.) impact on environmentalism within conservative movements. Backer emphasizes that RFK Jr. has successfully prioritized environmental issues without resorting to extreme measures, fostering a more pragmatic and inclusive approach. He states, “The next four years provide this real opportunity for the right to take this issue and say, hey, we care about this too” (04:16).

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Benji Backer’s Journey and Organization

Benji Backer's personal journey underscores the episode's narrative. Growing up in Wisconsin and deeply involved in conservative politics from a young age, Backer found a gap in environmental advocacy that aligned with his conservative values. In 2016, he founded a conservative environmental organization that now boasts over 55,000 activists and 220 chapters nationwide. Backer explains, “We have 55,000 activists across the country and growing very quickly... advocating for sensible environmental policies” (06:09).

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Bipartisan Environmentalism vs. Current Partisan Divide

The conversation contrasts the historically bipartisan nature of environmentalism with its current entanglement in partisan politics. Backer reminisces about a time when environmental issues transcended political affiliations, allowing for collaborative solutions. He remarks, “Teddy Roosevelt, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan... were the original conservationists. They were Republicans and they proposed good conservative policy for the environment that also is good for our country” (08:00). This bipartisan approach is now overshadowed by divisive rhetoric, making environmentalism a battleground rather than a collective effort.

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Critique of Current Environmental Policies

Backer critiques contemporary environmental policies, particularly the Green New Deal, asserting that it incorporates non-environmental elements that alienate conservatives. He states, “The Green New Deal... 25% of the Green New Deal has nothing to do with the environment or climate at all” (09:15). Additionally, he challenges the efficacy of mandates and governmental overreach, favoring innovation and technological advancements over regulatory approaches. Backer cites California’s environmental struggles as evidence that government-led initiatives may be counterproductive: “California has pursued this kind of people suck... their emissions are going up” (12:06).

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Nuclear Energy as a Solution

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on nuclear energy as a viable solution to environmental challenges. Backer advocates for the revival and expansion of nuclear power, highlighting its safety and efficiency compared to other energy sources. “Nuclear is the safest and most efficient energy source we have... it provides 24/7 clean electricity with zero fossil fuel emissions” (54:30). He criticizes the environmentalist opposition to nuclear energy, attributing it to misplaced fears and lobbying influences.

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Big Agriculture and Sustainable Farming

The episode also addresses the role of big agriculture in environmental degradation. Backer emphasizes the need for sustainable farming practices to feed a growing global population without compromising environmental integrity. He argues, “Mass production of food... takes away a lot of the nutritional value and discourages change” (53:37). Backer advocates for regenerative agriculture and carbon sequestration as methods to enhance efficiency and sustainability in food production.

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Rewilding and Conservation Efforts

Rewilding and the restoration of natural ecosystems are explored as crucial elements of environmental conservation. Backer supports initiatives to reintroduce native species and preserve wild spaces, asserting that “everything is connected” and that disrupting ecosystems can have far-reaching negative impacts. He shares his interest in projects like reintroducing buffalo to restore prairie ecosystems and criticizes extreme interventions like gene editing mosquitoes, labeling them “permissionless genocide” (17:33).

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Building Coalitions for Nonpartisan Environmentalism

The episode culminates with a discussion on the importance of building broad coalitions to address environmental issues beyond partisan lines. Backer envisions a movement where environmentalism is unified across political spectrums, leveraging technological innovation and community-driven initiatives. “Let's work together on embracing nuclear... managing our forests better... promoting sustainable agriculture,” he urges (42:32). He sees figures like Donald Trump as potential allies in this endeavor, capable of bridging the urban-rural divide and fostering a inclusive approach to environmental stewardship.

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Conclusion

Zero Hour with James Poulos Episode 80 offers a compelling exploration of the intersection between conservatism and environmentalism. Through Benji Backer’s insights, the episode underscores the potential for a unified, nonpartisan approach to environmental issues, advocating for sensible policies, technological innovation, and coalition-building. By reclaiming environmentalism from partisan warfare, Backer and Poulos posit that America can address its environmental challenges effectively and inclusively.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Benji Backer (02:22): “80% of Americans self-identified as environmentalists in 1990... today that number is 38%.”
• Benji Backer (04:16): “The next four years provide this real opportunity for the right to take this issue and say, hey, we care about this too.”
• Benji Backer (06:09): “We have 55,000 activists across the country and growing very quickly... advocating for sensible environmental policies.”
• Benji Backer (09:15): “The Green New Deal... 25% of the Green New Deal has nothing to do with the environment or climate at all.”
• Benji Backer (12:06): “California has pursued this kind of people suck... their emissions are going up.”
• Benji Backer (54:30): “Nuclear is the safest and most efficient energy source we have... it provides 24/7 clean electricity with zero fossil fuel emissions.”
• Benji Backer (53:37): “Mass production of food... takes away a lot of the nutritional value and discourages change.”
• Benji Backer (17:33): “Permissionless genocide” referring to gene editing mosquitoes.
• Benji Backer (42:32): “Let's work together on embracing nuclear... managing our forests better... promoting sustainable agriculture.”

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Zero Hour with James Poulos continues to challenge listeners to rethink conventional narratives, encouraging a reconciliatory and innovative approach to pressing environmental issues.

Transcript

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about? You insane Hollywood. So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] switch.

[James Polis]

$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only.

[Benji Backer]

Taxes and fees.

[James Polis]

Extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes.

[Benji Backer]

E details.

[James Polis]

A red wave has washed over America. Is it now time for conservatism to go green? Benji Backer is here. I'm James Polis. Welcome to Zero Hour.

[Benji Backer]

La la la la la la la.

[James Polis]

Environmentalism, maybe not a dirty word. Benji Backer's here. He's the founder of the country's largest conservative youth environmental organization, as well as an author of a book called Conservative Environmentalism. Benji, welcome.

[Benji Backer]

It is great to be here. And you're wearing the green environmentalist shirt, the green wave that you just alluded to.

[James Polis]

I am wearing the green.

[Benji Backer]

Call it that.

[James Polis]

I'm wearing the green. It's fascinating, isn't it? It seems like just a few months ago we would never hear the end of the carbon credits and nuclear energy bad. And you have to stop driving your own cars. It was unrelenting. And now suddenly things have changed.

[Benji Backer]

Well, I really feel like the tenor of this issue has been evolving a lot since really the Ukraine, Russia, war. Because for a while, if you remember before that, it was like Greta and AOC were just constantly in the news talking about like, the green New Deal, blocking traffic.

[James Polis]

How dare you?

[Benji Backer]

How dare you? Yeah, I testified at Congress with her.

[James Polis]

You dared?

[Benji Backer]

I dared. And you know, she really had, you know, the media's attention for a very long time. It actually lasted multiple years. It felt like.

[James Polis]

And was she any warmer in person? Did you get a moment with Greta?

[Benji Backer]

I did. I spent a decent amount of time with her backstage before we testified, before and after. And it was very obvious that at the time she was 15 or 16. She was like the, you know, now she's actually like an older person.

[James Polis]

So you did not rizz up Greta.

[Benji Backer]

I did not riz. That wasn't even a word back then. Was she the Rizzler before the Rizzler? Some are asking that. She was really nice, but it was obvious her parents were like pulling the strings there. Yeah, but I think People started to see through it, and they're like, okay, we care about the environment, but you are, like, making this crazy. You're making it really hard to identify with this stuff. And even young people stop paying attention to her. And now that conversation, the tenor has gone away, and now it's like, a really amazing time, which is, I'm sure, what we'll get into to, like, reshape this narrative. Because environmentalism was not a dirty word that long ago. I don't remember that because I wasn't alive during that time. But 80% of Americans self identified as environmentalists in 1990. 80%. And today that number is 38%. So obviously, something bad happened. People like Greta and other, you know, other people like that have kind of stolen the show, and we can take that issue back.

[James Polis]

You know, that's insane that it's down to 38%. I mean, it's understandable in a certain sense, but, like, over that span, like, our lived environment has just gotten so, obviously worse.

[Benji Backer]

Right, right.

[James Polis]

And so degraded, you know, between the homelessness and sort of people never bouncing back from COVID over and just food situation, you know, all that stuff in sort of, like, the RFK expanded universe, which is now like a part. Whether you want to call it Unity 2024 or sort of the MAGA plus or whatever, you know, we'll see. But, like, people are now, I think, more tuned in than ever to the fact that, like, our lived environment has.

[Benji Backer]

A huge impact on us, is garbage.

[James Polis]

And it needs to be fixed before it's too late.

[Benji Backer]

Well, and we have a huge. I mean, we have a huge responsibility to take care of it from, like, a moral standpoint, but it also has a big impact on our lives. Right. Like, the worse our environment is, the worse that we are off. You know, like, if you look at, like, farmers and ranchers, they can't survive if their environment's screwed because their crop yields, you know, don't actually come to fruition. If forests are burning in the west every summer and every ecosystem is being depleted and our air quality sucks, and you're putting all these pollutants in the atmosphere, like, that's bad for everyone. I feel like people are starting to realize that. That's why actually, you know, this election was the one that the Trump campaign, I think, did the best job to reach out to young voters on a whole host of issues. But this is one of those things where, you know, the media doesn't want to say that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is a good environmentalist because he's associated with Trump. But there's a lot of young people who weren't just like, loving his Make America healthy again, but they also loved his environmental stuff because he prioritizes this issue. And he used to be a little bit more radical. He used to have this view of banning fossil fuels and no nuclear. But he also has kind of come to the sensible middle on this. And I do believe the next four years provide this real opportunity for the right to take this issue and say, hey, we care about this too. We just don't want to solve it in a crazy way. We want to protect people's livelihoods and we want to protect our communities. We want to make America stronger and we want to protect the environment. That all those things can happen simultaneously. But for so many years, it was like you had to ruin everything to save the environment. And that is not a sustainable approach in any way, shape or form.

[James Polis]

Yeah. So, you know, we're going to get into the nuclear and sort of all the nitty gritty, but, you know, I want to give you a chance to just sort of like lay out the vision, lay out the project. I mean, I think so many people, especially if they're anywhere kind of on the right, you know, to the extent that they, that they have listened at all to like an npr, you know, like what they'll hear.

[Benji Backer]

Those are always fun, is, you know.

[James Polis]

Always like, like, you know, the call outs to all the foundations that are funding. Oh, yeah, npr. And it's like for a more verdant world. And like, that's kind of the vision of environmentalism that has penetrated the consciousness is like these enormous foundations. Yes. Full of people who whisper to you.

[Benji Backer]

While they're lecturing you from specific cities.

[James Polis]

Yes. Are going to take your money and turn you into a sort of battery for a more verdant world that they control.

[Benji Backer]

Yes.

[James Polis]

So, like, give us the alternative. What are you doing and what's the grand.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah, I mean, so. So I grew up in Wisconsin and was really active in politics, conservative politics, since the age of 10. I was knocking doors and making phone calls from the age of 10 for candidates. I spoke at CPAC my freshman year of high school. I was on Fox News my freshman year of high school and, you know, even helped kind of Charlie Kirk and Turning Point start off way back when. And. But yet I still cared so deeply, like so many conservatives do, about the environment. And I looked at the lay of the land of like Sierra Clubs and all these environmental organizations, and there was nothing for me as a right of center person to join if I cared about the environment, but wasn't believing in like the Green New deal. So in 2016, I was in class actually in college, and I tweeted out, hey, I'm going to start a conservative environmental organization. Because we've lost our place at the table. We're getting bad policies. This issue used to be bipartisan. It's not any longer. The left's kind of crazy on it, but the right's not doing anything about it either. And so, you know, fast forward eight years later. We have 55,000 activists across the country and growing very quickly. We have 220 chapters. We're kind of modeled like a traditional environmental organization. We have, you know, chapters and people all over the country advocating for sensible environmental policies. That's also what makes us different. But, you know, we do have these real environmental challenges and I understand why so, so many conservatives have become skeptical of the word. The topic has been co opted as a Trojan horse for other ideas. Right? I mean, in my book I talk about how the Green New Deal, like 25% of the green New Deal has nothing to do with the environment or climate at all. It's. And that's sort of the norm for that sort of environmental policymaking. So of course that's frustrating for most Americans, most conservatives. But the vision that we can replace it with is the one that conservatives used to own. Teddy Roosevelt, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, these were the original conservationists. They were Republicans and they proposed good conservative policy for the environment that also is good for our country. And they actually worked across party lines to do it. It used to not be a partisan issue. Like I said, 80% of Americans self identified as environmentalists. If that was the number today, The Gretas and AOCs of the world wouldn't be relevant. Because people don't want radical policy on the environment. They want rational policy on the environment. They don't want a revolution to take over the world when it comes to climate and the environment. They want an evolutionary like progress towards a healthier planet that usually is based on technology and innovation and things that make people's lives better. You think about like what Elon Musk has done for electric cars. There were so many government subsidies and dollars put into electric vehicles around the world and in the United States too. And the only person who figured it out, really still to this day has been Elon Musk. And he did it largely without using those subsidies and those in that government investment because he knew doing it himself with ingenuity and not like relying on These weird standards that the government sets is the best way to do it. The hybrid actually came out of that same model. Japan was seeing that people wanted to save money at the gas pump and they're like, why don't we make a more fuel efficient vehicle? And the Toyota Prius came out of that. And you think of the Toyota Prius is like the liberal hippie driver thing. It actually came out of a capitalist competition at the same time that they created that with no government involvement. The U.S. government here, Bill Clinton and a bunch of the Democratic folks in that administration were trying to mandate more fuel efficient vehicles and no American company could figure it out because the mandates didn't work. The incentive to innovate overseas did. And I think those two examples, Tesla and the Prius, are what America can do and what conservatives can do to retake this issue where it's like using ingenuity and a desire for a better world to drive this rather than this fear mongering telling people what to do. Mandates revolution. Humans suck. We shouldn't be here.

[James Polis]

We're the problem.

[Benji Backer]

We're the problem. And it's like, yeah, but we're also the solution. The solution is not killing ourselves. And that's really what the most extreme people actually want to do.

[James Polis]

Depopulation.

[Benji Backer]

Depopulation and this thing called the Extinction rebellion which is this big UK organization. Thank hopefully it hasn't taken hold here very much. But that is so anti environment at its core. Because if humans are on the planet, then humans have to drive the solution. And I believe humans are inherently good. That's maybe a difference I have with some of the environmentalists on the other side.

[James Polis]

Right, Yeah. I mean it's been wild to see so much of what has driven the environmentalist debate or conversation when it's been sort of orchestrated by this kind of little, very small corner of the elite left.

[Benji Backer]

Totally.

[James Polis]

It's been very boring, actually been quite dull. It's going to be like the experts are going to lecture you and you are going to listen to them.

[Benji Backer]

Right.

[James Polis]

And then you are going to do what they say and it doesn't matter if you understand what these proposals are, what these policies are. Don't worry, they've got it locked in. Things are just going to start happening to you. You're going to get taxed by the mile for drive, whatever it is. Very dull stuff, Very dull.

[Benji Backer]

So negative. No one wants to be associated with that. And the reality is that stuff doesn't even work. So just to like name off a couple, you know, of the Data speaks for itself. Okay? California has pursued this kind of people suck. We're gonna mandate our way to the solutions. Their emissions are going up in the country, their forests are burning, their ecosystems are struggling. And that's happening while conservative states are decreasing emissions, carbon emissions, while their forests aren't burning, and while their economies are thriving and energy prices are going down. And they're, you know, you look at like Germany or California or any of the countries or states or places where they are trying this, it not only costs more, but it also like economically costs more, it also costs more environmentally. So it's actually doing the opposite of what they say that they want to do. And the countries that are reducing emissions the fastest in the world are the ones that are growing their economies the fastest. Because when you innovate, when you have money to invest in cool technology and cool solutions that ends up helping the environment, it increases efficiency, it helps people live their lives better. It helps people use technologies that like, look at like a nest thermostat, for example. Like there's an incentive on your app to conserve energy so that you save money and that the grid doesn't have to use as much energy and therefore we take less from the earth. Like those sorts of innovations drive down emissions, not these mandates. And you looking at California, Germany, everywhere around the world, Venezuela, anywhere, there's like a government first approach. And emissions and the environment are always going in the wrong direction. And it's super backwards that for so long we've allowed that group of people to dominate the conversation.

[James Polis]

And so, you know, no question Elon Musk, like the greatest salesman, you know, probably see for a while, knows how to turn things into meme causes and get real traction that way. But it's not just him. I mean, we've now got sort of in this sort of greater, like this string of sort of of environmentalist meme causes. I mean like buy Greenland, right? Like, yeah, some of that's for, for strategic military stuff. But this is an enormous wilderness. And especially, you know, if the Arctic Ocean is going to continue to open up, you know, this is going to be an area where you're going to have access to a huge amount of resources and a huge amount of sort of natural space that you're going to want to preserve, right?

[Benji Backer]

Yeah. And I think that that's like the, the ethos of conservatism is to conserve. Right. And I think everyone who's conservative is passionate about some sort of conservation related thing. At least everyone that I've met, like when I travel around the country, the people who are the most passionate about the environment are the people who hunt, fish, ski, hike, spend time outdoors. They farm, they ranch, whatever they do, they're spending their time outdoors, either in their free time or for their work or both. And the people who have been lecturing us about this stuff have been in the inner cities, and they don't actually go to these places. And of course, you know, you know, New York City is like Central park or whatever, but, you know, it's not the most environmentally positive place to be.

[James Polis]

No, they go to Davos. Not the best pro shop.

[Benji Backer]

That's true. That's a great point. And like, if you. If you. If you're like me and you want to be in the environment, I could never live in New York City because of that. It's not because the politics or the cost. And that stuff's bad enough. But, like, truly, even if it was cheap, I could not live there because I can't be that close to so many other people and not be around the environment. That's why I live in Arizona. It's why I've lived in Washington State. Like, I want to be near the outdoors. Most conservatives want that, too. That's why they live in these places that are close to the outdoors. And we have a real problem in the world where we have very little wild space left, and those places have to be protected. That doesn't mean that we don't develop resources. That doesn't mean that we don't manage those ecosystems and try to kind of have a balance, which is what conservation is, between development and environmental protection. But like Alaska, Greenland, there's very few places where we actually allow wildlife to thrive or we allow nature to run its course. And the reason that's important for us is because, like, the ecosystems are all connected. Like, it sounds kind of like, you know, kind of weird and mystical for me to say that, but everything is connected. And it's like the butterfly effect of, like, if we kill off an entire species or even a chunk of a species, it has a massive impact on a whole ripple of things.

[James Polis]

It's all creation.

[Benji Backer]

It is. And there was a balance that was here before we were here. So we have to be active stewards and active conservationists, and we have a duty to protect these places. And America has probably the most diverse, most beautiful landscapes on the planet that any country has.

[James Polis]

So it sounds like you are in favor of buying Greenland.

[Benji Backer]

Let's buy it. Yeah. But if we can protect it and also develop resources at the same time.

[James Polis]

Yeah. All right, let me give you a few other. Because the big one right now is kill the mosquitoes. Bill Gates out there, he is not killed. He's not doing the interconnected thing. No, he wants to. So the idea is made more mosquitoes. You insert a gene into the mosquito that causes them to be sterile or infertile so they can't reproduce anymore. And this is like, sort of like, it's like euthanasia for, for the mosquitoes. Like a kindler, gentler, like.

[Benji Backer]

Are we going to ask the mosquitoes for consent before we do this?

[James Polis]

I don't think. No, no, they're not asking for consent. This permissionless genocide, is this like an anti malaria thing? Yes, it is.

[Benji Backer]

Got it.

[James Polis]

So, you know, I look at this stuff and I'm like, yeah, mosquitoes bad, I guess. I mean, I'm super sensitive to mosquitoes. Like, I get one bite and it's like this is red welt for like a week or two.

[Benji Backer]

But man, you don't have that problem in Arizona.

[James Polis]

No, no, thank God.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

But yeah, you just like one shot a species and it seems to me you're asking for trouble.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah, you can't mess with nature that much. You have to manage ecosystems as if they were natural and like, you know, destroying entire ecosystems, trying to control nature. There's like preservation, which is like, hands off, we're not going to do anything. Then there's conservation, which is like, we're going to balance the need to preserve these places but also do human activity and we, we have to balance those things. And then there's like this approach which is like, we're going to control everything and we're going to like control the weather, we're going to control mosquitoes, we're going to do all these things. The problem is the ecosystem doesn't like that. Like when you met, like, I believe that climate change is nowhere near what the left says it is in terms of a problem. But when you, when you put pollutants into the atmosphere, the Earth does respond. When you kill off an entire species of bug, the Earth is going to respond because there's a ripple effect everywhere. And I think like these people are like out trying to outsmart nature and you can't do that. Nature's gonna win every time. But you might not like nature winning because it probably has a negative impact on us. And yeah, so I would say that's probably a pretty foolish idea. That's kind of got a lot of. It's probably pretty scary to think about the ramifications of that.

[James Polis]

So what do you make of this, like, climate control stuff? I mean, I'm friendly with one of these guys, young guy, like, super motivated. He's like, you know, God wants us to have dominion and, like, we. We can build cool stuff. And like, you know, we. We need to, like, make the Mojave Desert green. And, you know, like, come on, guys, we can do this. Like, we need more rain. Let's make it. Let's have. Let's put the machines to work. Like, really starting to, like, terraform the climate.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah. You know, I don't think we should be messing with nature in that way. Like, I think that there are other ways we can do things. And, like, you know, living in Arizona, the desert is the desert and. And that's a natural cycle and that's how it's supposed to be right now. And I just think that when you're trying to control the weather, I think there's a lot of good intention in it. Like, this guy, you know, is probably truly thinking he's doing the right thing. He's not, like, trying to, like, take over the world. I think a lot of people are like, oh, Bill Gates is, like, funding these things, therefore he's, like, trying to take over the world on this issue. I know the people who are working on it, they're not trying to take over the world. They're genuinely trying to solve a problem. I just think it's the wrong approach. And again, the ecosystem is going to respond when you do these things. The desert is not meant to be flooded with rain and turn into a rainforest. Like, that's not what it's meant to do.

[James Polis]

It's flooded with rain and the rain washes away.

[Benji Backer]

Exactly.

[James Polis]

And everyone sort of like pokes their head out and life goes on.

[Benji Backer]

Exactly. And it might turn green for a day or two because the desert plants are like, whoa, we just got some water. That's kind of weird. We don't like. Actually a perfect example of this is cacti in Arizona thrive because it's so dry. And when you over water them, like, my parents have cacti on their property, and they. They're so finicky. They die so easily because you water them too much or you water them too little. The Earth figures that out for itself. We should not be figuring that out. And if you just, like, flooded the west with forced rain to try to, like, create a more secure water supply that's unnatural or whatever, you'd completely destroy the natural biome. I mean, it would completely destroy everything, and it would probably turn it into some sort of rainforest, but you'd have to keep controlling it for the rest of our days and you basically are screwing everything up. So, yeah, I think it's a really bad idea.

[James Polis]

This is like my favorite bad example is like the Salton Sea.

[Benji Backer]

Oh my gosh.

[James Polis]

Which is like, oops, we made a sea. And then it's like just a slow catastrophic decline.

[Benji Backer]

Like ecological, emphasis on catastrophic. Like, I just watched a documentary about Salton Sea. If people who are listening to this, most people probably don't know what Salton Sea is because I didn't know what it was until like two months ago. And I follow this stuff. But like, maybe if you're from the Southwest, you do. It was the biggest lake in California in the entire Southwest. Like bigger than Lake Tahoe. And it was all human made. And it is like really bad what's happening down there. It's the air pollution from the sea drying up.

[James Polis]

Smells bad.

[Benji Backer]

Man smells bad. It's killed all the fish. There's all these diseases in the water. You can't even go in the water. This is what happens when humans mess with nature too much and they think that they're smarter than nature. It just doesn't work. And no conservationist would say that you should do those things. Nobody who actually has a connection to the land that's not in some ivory tower in the Salton Seas, you know, example for, for a while is like to make a resort town, right? Like, yeah, that's their ivory tower. It could be a scientific ivory tower. Like we need to control the weather because we need more rainfall. None of those people get it right. Because sometimes you can't. Like, not enough scientific papers can erase the, the reality that nature knows what it's doing and we don't. And the only thing that we should be doing is making sure that we can keep these places thriving and in a fairly natural way, not a controlled way.

[James Polis]

What do you think about this is another one of those great sort of like meme causes is like the rewilding thing where it's like, bring back the buffalo or like maybe even like the woolly mammoth. Like, we can do this, you guys. Like, what do you make of it?

[Benji Backer]

I think it's harder to do in, in reality than we probably would. Like, but it sounds really fun.

[James Polis]

Yeah.

[Benji Backer]

Like, I do get sad. Like, this is probably just like the hippie environmentalist in me, but I do get really sad when I think about what we've done to wildlife. Like you even think about like Africa, that was like kind of the last place. Right. Maybe the rainforest too, where we've just not developed things. Like, I don't think people realize that even since like the early 2000s when we started, like being able to see really cool movies and documentaries about these places, that those wildlife populations have like dumped into the like the lowest levels that you would ever see in that sort of time frame. Like it's, it's really sad. We're destroying the Amazon at an astronomical rate. We're destroying Africa at an astronomical rate. China is actually to blame for a lot of that. Oh yeah. For both actually. And to blame for a lot of things, honestly. But you know, we can get into that too. But like we, we are again messing with, in this instance, it's the opposite. But we're messing with the ecosystem in a really negative way that is, is going to have negative ramifications on us because we need places where, where wildlife can thrive. And when we kill off an entire population, which we obviously did in the US too with multiple different species, I think bringing them back would be so cool. And like nature needs to have its wildlife that is meant to thrive in those areas. So that's why like in general, unless it's too close to like ranches and stuff, I'm pro, like bringing some of these bigger game back into like national parks. Yeah, that's what they're supposed to be there. Yeah.

[James Polis]

I mean you think about the buffalo specifically and I mean that was just a massacre. And that has an effect on, you know, the soil. It has an effect on the plains and the farming and all that stuff is all.

[Benji Backer]

Oh yeah, it's so interconnected. And like there's that bird that was in the early 1900s that we killed off that we kind of use as like carrier pigeons. And they were like, they were millions of them and we killed them all. And there were. So there was some connection between that and the buffalo and like these huge dust storms that we were having because it just changes the landscape of everything. And of course, eventually it course corrects when it's only a species or two, but when it's every, you know, every species, like it's happening in the Amazon, for example, I mean, you can't really get that back eventually. Like you've gone too far. And you know, that's again, why like also like they're putting grizzly bears back into the mountains out west and people are like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get killed hiking while I'm. But it's like, I mean, they're supposed to be there if you want to take the risk to go on a hike in a place because grizzly bears are only going to hang out in certain area. If you want to go that deep in the wilderness, like, you got to take the risks. And like, I take that risk when I go out there. Now, if I'm like near Denver or something, should I be at risk of a grizzly bear attack? Probably not. But if I'm in like the most middle of nowhere place in Wyoming where they're supposed to live, like, that's a risk I'm kind of willing to take because that's where they're supposed to be. So I think rewilding could be really good. You just don't want to like do it so much where people can't ranch and farm and do the things that we need to do.

[James Polis]

Right? Yeah. And the bears do learn. They learn where you are and they like to sort of break into stuff and poke around. But.

[Benji Backer]

Well, I'll put it on the record here. I don't know if I've ever said this before. If I die from a grizzly bear attack, that's a pretty cool way to go.

[James Polis]

It is, it is. It's gotta be up there.

[Benji Backer]

It is. I mean, in the moment, I would probably tell you I'm not a big fan of this. What's happening right now.

[James Polis]

Yeah.

[Benji Backer]

But as someone who, like, I've actually recorded videos, like when I've gone snowshoeing alone and stuff, where I would be like, well, if I get attacked by a mountain lion, like I'm in, I'm in his or her territory and that's just the way it's gonna be. And maybe, maybe I'm the only one who's that mindset?

[James Polis]

No, I don't know. I mean, I think it's good for you. You know, I've done like the Montana sort of hike thing and you gotta, you gotta go with the group and you gotta have like little your mace and you gotta have your pistol and you gotta be like hootin and clappin'and. That's it puts, puts things in perspective.

[Benji Backer]

It keeps you, keeps you strong, keeps you young, you know, but. But also like, it I think also helps connect you with like how rugged nature was before. And I think like, maybe again, maybe I'm the only one. But I think it's a really cool thing. And we all love watching the documentaries of like Planet Earth or whatever. Why do we like watching that but don't actually want that in reality because that's actually not like that's going away like that. Those, those documentaries like are really hard to film right now because there's very few places where they can actually find these wildlife. That actually wasn't that hard 20 years ago. And we're, we're dropping these areas at an astronomical rate and I think it'd be cool to bring them back.

[James Polis]

Yeah. And then, you know, people are like, oh, we have a crisis of masculinity. Like why is everyone so soy right now? Like what's going on? And it's like, well, if there's like no wilderness for boys to grow up in or like teenage guys to sort of like, you know, get themselves into maybe some life threatening trouble, how to get themselves out, you know, like this stuff is formative and it used to be such like a. Right, like an integral part of like the American experience.

[Benji Backer]

Well, and, but it also connects you with something bigger than yourself. Like it's, it's, it's not quite a religion because like it's not like quite at the astronomical amazingness of God. But like when you're out in a place like that, you feel euphoric, like even if it's scary because you have to like worry about food and water and you know, wildlife attacks. Like you're connecting to something so much bigger than yourself. And it is such a unique experience. That's why people love hunting and fishing and being outside because they have these connections. And when you're a young kid that it's that on steroids. And if you have that integrated into your life, like Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, there's these like Knowles trips. I don't know if you've heard of that, but like my dad did that when he was younger. Where you're like surviving in the backcountry for weeks on end with a guide as a kid just so you can like connect to nature and learn how to take care of yourself and all these things, these are like life experiences that shape you into who you are. A big part of who I am, and I would even say big part. I manage a team of 30 some people and I'm in my 20s. Like I would say a lot of that. And maybe I know people are gonna be like, bullshit, you're an environmentalist. You're just saying this. But a lot of that is because I've spent time in these places and you learn how to become a leader and also you get time to process things. Right. And even now when I think I'm really too in my head about things, I'll just go out and go hiking and alone and just clear my head and think through how was I in handling that situation? What did I do wrong? What did I do right? And when you're a kid, those experiences, especially as a young boy, are just so important.

[James Polis]

And of course, this is for girls and women, too.

[Benji Backer]

Totally.

[James Polis]

In some ways, it's even more important that our females are having a lifelong connection with the natural world than the guys.

[Benji Backer]

My older sister went to college at Colorado College in Colorado Springs. Every weekend she was doing backcountry skiing, backcountry hiking, backcountry stuff. And she's one of the strongest people I know. But she's also an amazing mom. And I don't even know if she realizes it. She probably would realize it if she listened to this, and I should probably talk to her about this. But I would guarantee you that a big reason as to why she's such a strong leader is because she did all these things because she had to take care of herself in a way that women need to feel. There's good dads, good husbands are super important, but it's not a given that that person could go away or pass away early or whatever. And, like, people need to be able to take care of themselves, and women need to be independent, you know, in a really strong way. And what better way to do that, to teach people in a healthy way than doing that outdoors? And, you know, that's been a big part of. I think why I'm surrounded by so many independent women is because they do these things all the time.

[James Polis]

Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't want to push this too far, but I do think there is something going on where it's like the toughness that you get as a woman who grew up in nature and who's just intimately acquainted with the, you know, birth and life and death and the suddenness and the violence and, you know, the toughness. If that ceases to be a part of your experience, then really your only outlet for, like, toughness as a woman is, like, I don't know, you know, in a cute. In sort of a cubicle world, or like, something that's really, really unnatural is, like, under fluorescent lights. And, I mean, we've kind of, like, run that experiment. And I don't think anyone's super stoked with how it's turned out.

[Benji Backer]

No. And, like, yeah, I spent a lot of time in New York City over the last three or four years, for better or for worse, and mostly for worse. And, like, the biggest problems that People have, if they grew up there, for example, is like. And this is oversimplifying it, but there's a lot of truth in this, is whether or not the Starbucks app got their drink in time. Because they're so fast paced. Their biggest problems are like, did this come fast enough to me? Like, oh, did I miss the train that I needed to do two minutes earlier? But they're gonna send like, right? It's such like a, like give, like give me, give me, give me culture. All the totally disconnected from the real world. And I get it, like, those people are, are living different lives and they, and a lot of times they have these jobs or that's necessary or whatever. I'm not hating unnecessarily, but it creates weak people from a, like, individual level where if they were put in tough decisions in tough situations, I would rather trust the person who's seen life and death in nature, who had to rely on it for even just a day. They don't even have to rely on it for their whole upbringing, which a lot of people do when they live out in these areas. But when you have to deal with that, all these other things seem so small. You're like, why do I care so much about if my. But you see all these people getting so up in arms and everything has to be here right now. Instant gratification in my entire generation of Gen Z. And it's really sad. And I fall for it too. Like, I'm not like trying to preach, like, I fall for it too. But my way of disconnecting from that is to go back into the outdoors. And I think that's why I care so much about it, because I know how good it is for humanity. Like keeping these places wild. Like, you don't have to believe in climate change or you can, you don't have to believe that like air pollution is, is having an effect on our weather. Or you can, you don't have to. It doesn't matter where you stand on that to know that this is probably the most important thing, in my opinion, that we can do to make humanity stronger. And I can guarantee you anybody who spends time hunting, fishing, has grown up in those sorts of worlds would tell you that they're better off because of it.

[James Polis]

Yeah. And you know, these critiques go both ways. I mean, I spent a minute maybe sort of beating up on the lefty Karen archetype and easy, and now I'll go in the other direction and say, like, you got these guys on the right who they can tell you they can sit you down and bore you to tears talking about all the tactical attachments on their guns, but they've, like, never, you know, stocked a buck with a bow and arrow.

[Benji Backer]

Totally.

[James Polis]

That's just when you're alienated from that kind of experience. And, you know, I'm as guilty in some ways of this as the next guy, but, yeah, when you're alienated from those natural experiences, it does kind of push you into this artificial mode.

[Benji Backer]

But, yeah. And I also think one of the cool things about the environment is that there's a connective tissue with humanity when you're out there, too. Like, I think that that's why for so long, this issue wasn't partisan and didn't get caught up in the same culture wars. Like, of course, they're worse today on every issue than they were before. But it is like, this is a unique time where the environment's being put in the same categories like abortion. Like, you kind of get, like, the same reaction from people where they go to one side like you would if you talked about abortion or immigration or guns or something. And. But the reason why it was nonpartisan before, and, like, I love that we're talking about this stuff because I think at the core, this is why, like, I care so much, but also why Americans care so much, is that it's not about politics for this. It's like when you're out hunting, fishing, hiking, skiing, even just going for a run in your neighborhood park, like, you don't care what someone's political affiliation is. And in fact, like, the walls go down when you're in these places. And. And it's not about politics. Whereas, like, you know, when you go to a Whole Foods or you go to a Cabela's or whatever. Whatever store you are at, like, the world that we're around all the time, there's some political affiliation. Like, I'm in the Blaze studio that has some affiliation. And if I go to the Whole Foods after this, that is some. Like. But the environment has nothing. Yeah, And I think that's something that we've lost, because when people think about environmentalism right now, they don't think about that. They think about all these really stupid people who have been dominating the narrative that we talked about earlier.

[James Polis]

Yeah, the grizzly does not care. If you have one of those bumper stickers I'm starting to see on the Tesla. That's like, I bought this before Elon bought Twitter. You know, it's like the signaling. Nature does not hear the signal.

[Benji Backer]

No. And, yeah, they don't care who, who any of these people are that think that like politics should be as part of this. And in fact, I think like the left has done such a disservice to the environment by making it so political because in the early 2000s they realized they could win on this issue. I mean, I was, I mean I was with Bridget Fedisy at, you know, in Austin. She's an awesome podcaster. People don't know who she is. She said she voted for Al Gore strictly because of environmental stuff. A lot of people did. He realized that he could like galvanize an entire generation of people to vote for him if he was like the environmental guy. But by doing that, he started using it as a way to go after the other side and he made it so partisan. And every time that he realized that the more alarmist he was, the more attention he got. And that's why he created that movie the Inconvenient Truth. And of course we all know that a lot of those things didn't come true, but it doesn't matter because the damage is already done. He, he, he became really popular off of it. And people know like people think of him when they think about environmentalism now. And I don't know if that was necessarily his intention, but it happened and we got to take it out of that and, and, and kind of return it til we're like, there's an incentive, There should be an incentive to campaign on it because we want answers on it. But it shouldn't be like there's a pro environmental side and there's an anti environmental side because actually when it's that way, at least for the last 20 years, from my point of view, both end up being anti environmental sides because neither one actually has an incentive to solve a problem. They're just trying to go after each other about why each other's idea is worse than the other and then we actually don't do anything about it.

[James Polis]

Yeah, I think Bridget's a great example. She was on Glenn Beck not long ago and you know, like Gen X Woman and kind of has seen that like the weird character arc of environmentalism and yeah, where we thought we stood, you know, 20, 25 years ago, we're in such a different place now. And I think for a lot of.

[Benji Backer]

Those, and their approach has not worked right. They've dominated the narrative for 20 years and the environment has not gotten any better. It's only gotten worse. Emissions go up when Democrats are in power. And look, I'm all about building political bridges so I'm not trying to take a partisan attack, but my point is it's not working. And as an environmentalist and someone who loves the environment, I'm very disappointed in the way that the left has handled this situation. And that's why something's got to change.

[James Polis]

To me and that sort of Gen X experience. You know, I was. I was telling people, gosh, I don't know, you know, maybe five or six months ago, I said, look, there's a scenario here where we kind of go back to, like, a purple America, but it's like, it's different. You know, it's sort of like we learned these lessons.

[Benji Backer]

Right.

[James Polis]

And so there's this new sort of purple mainstream, and it's not kind of what it was before, but it brings back some of what was lost. And, you know, just looking at the course of the election here, and of course, you got that map with that, like, red shift and all these red arrows going in the Trump direction. Yeah. Some of that is because people are sort of, you know, there's a backlash against. Against the quote, unquote, progressive left and all that. But I do think that, like, some of that is just trying to recover.

[Benji Backer]

Yes.

[James Polis]

That center of gravity and that. That feeling of normalcy. And, like, you know what? Like, this is our country, and we are kind of like, more or less stuck with each other, and this is a particular place, and we have certain responsibilities to this place and to one another.

[Benji Backer]

Well. And I think I'll be the first to admit, and I don't even really regret it, because I think it was a different time eight years ago, but I was wrong about Donald Trump in a lot of ways, and I was pretty anti Donald Trump, and that was actually part of an identity. It's hard to find now because it's been so many years, but when you search my name, it kind of was, like, the first thing that came up.

[James Polis]

Well, he's like, Mr. New York. So that's, like, strike one for you.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah, yeah. Has he spent time in a national park? I don't know, but it's an open invite, Mr. President. I'll take you to one. But I think, like, you know, one of the things that I didn't like was that I thought he was feeding the partisanship in a lot of ways and kind of actually doing, like, taking it and running with it on steroids. Right. In the last, like, year, there's a huge change with him that I don't think people want to admit, because the people who are super partisan on the right Actually, I don't think really like it. And then. And they actually, like, criticize him for it. His, like, biggest supporters from before don't think it's cool. And then, of course, the left doesn't wanna give him credit for anything, so they're not gonna talk about it. But. But imagine telling somebody in 2016 that Elon Musk, Tulsi Gabbard, Joe Rogan, like, these crazy concoction of people that, like, none of the. Like, maybe Elon and Joe Rogan, but like, this, like, coalition, Robert F. Kennedy, like, that coalition of people is. Is wild. Like, in 2016, it would have been impossible for someone to conceive that. You know, see that. And I think, like, I love that because I don't like all those people's opinions and everything. What it shows is that what happened with this is what used to happen in American politics, where people who agreed more than they disagreed with somebody would team up to build a coalition to do the right thing. And I guarantee you, even though Tulsi Gabbard and others have shifted a little bit, they haven't changed their mind on everything compared to eight years ago. They just know that there's more in common with this current movement than there is, you know, indifference. And I think it provides a real opportunity, unlike 2016, for conservatives or, you know, I do think, like, it's much more broad than that. It's actually just this coalition of Americans who want to build a better country to take this issue back and say, you know, this is an issue that we all share. It's going to be solved in a different way for different communities. Right. Like, different geographies have different environmental issues. But, like, let's work together on embracing nuclear in this country. Let's work together on managing our forests better. Let's work together on supporting biodiversity. Let's work together to develop more energy in the United States so that we can compete with China. Let's, you know, work together to promote sustainable agriculture so that our farmers can be more efficient, so that they can have more money in their pockets and that we can have more food at a lower environmental cost. Like, let's do all these things that Americans actually kind of agree on. Let's enhance our water quality and solve the water challenge in the West. You know, these are, like, complex challenges, but they have solutions or they have the potential to have solutions. And it's going to take somebody to break out of the partisan box. Kamal was not gonna do it.

[James Polis]

Yeah.

[Benji Backer]

Donald Trump can do it because he's surrounded by people now who care about this stuff a lot. He was not.

[James Polis]

Before I was combing through some of those, you know, election postmortem sort of charts and everything, and there was one sort of scatter plot that was fascinating, and it showed that basically, like, the Trump electorate this time around was closer to the. The first Obama electorate than Harris was to Obama then. So, you know, this is. This is a realignment, for sure, but in some ways, it's really just kind of like, you know, looking behind us as a country and being like, wow.

[Benji Backer]

A lot of stuff is what's happening. Yeah.

[James Polis]

Fallen out of our pack and we need to go back and, like, get that stuff.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah. And for years, I've been saying that the partisanship in America, the tribalism is ruining America. And I know that I was right. I think Trump somehow intentionally, unintentionally realized that and then went ahead of me in, like, where I was at and was like, so I'm going to build coalitions with the craziest group of people we've ever seen. And I was like, what? Like, I don't know if even I can get on board with that. And now I'm just, like, totally down for it. Because it's what we need. Like, we need to break out of these. Like. Like, we are all, like. It's so cliche, but, like, what Donald Trump was saying is true, that, like, we are all Americans and we all, like, need each other to survive. And I think about, like, a lot of this comes down to, like, an urban, rural divide on environmental issues. And just in America in general, we misunderstand each other, but we also rely on each other so much. Like, you know, New York City, for example. You know, Republicans can hate on that place as much as they want, but a lot, a lot. There's a lot of bad that comes out of there, but there's also a lot of good that comes out of there for the rest of the country. And that's where, like, we put our checks, you know, to have a bank account. You know, like, you just think about the simplicity of it all. That's a lot of the companies that we love are headquartered. You know, there's a lot that goes on there. Those people also want to talk crap about all rural communities, as if they don't know what they're doing and they don't know what they're talking about, and they're all stupid or whatever. What they don't realize is that all the food that they're eating and the energy that they're using and all that stuff comes from those communities, too. And so we're so interdependent as Americans on one another that, you know, maybe this coalition that's been built by Donald Trump could actually show that to people again, because Elon Musk is not a rural person. The dude's the highest tech. Silicon Valley now Austin. But, like, the dude is Mr. Urban in my. Like, he's the epitome of, like, the urban trendsetter guy.

[James Polis]

Yeah. He'd sooner be in space than in the forest.

[Benji Backer]

Totally. But Trump has the opposite side, too. Like, the people he surrounds himself with, especially, like, with his previous EPA and Department of Interior. These were, like, rugged outdoorsmen. You have everyone from Elon Musk to those sorts of people. Like, let's do something so cool here. Make environmental issues nonpartisan again in this country and do some like, but with. Do it with sensible policy. He's the one. He's the right person to do it.

[James Polis]

Well, you know, he's a big sucker for anything that's big and beautiful.

[Benji Backer]

Anything that's big and beautiful, it's the best. That's why he did Kim Kardashian. That's why he worked with. Did Kim Kardashian. Probably not.

[James Polis]

Different show?

[Benji Backer]

Hopefully not. That would be. Yeah, but that's why he associated with Kim Kardashian and Van Jones to solve criminal justice reform or help solve it, because he wanted to do something that was outside the box, that was good for America. And I think he's got a potential to do what he did in criminal justice reform on steroids for so many different issues that have not been solved in this country because we're in these little boxes. And he dares to kind of be like, yeah, Republicans don't usually talk about criminal justice reform, but I'm going to do it anyways. Like, Republicans don't really talk about environmental issues right now. We used to, but we don't anymore. I'm going to do it anyway.

[James Polis]

So much criticism, like, what are you doing? Going to these, like, rappers and, like, Juice World. What is this?

[Benji Backer]

Like, I don't even think he knows who they are, but he knows, like. Like, it's so funny hearing him, like, talk about football or whatever and, like, have these football players on stage with him, which is, like, really cool as a football fan, but also, like, just so strange because he's, like, obviously doesn't watch a lot of football, but he knows that building coalitions with a wide variety of people. And I don't know if he realized this before, but now he's really realized this is, like, good for him and good for the country.

[James Polis]

Yeah, I think it's always been there to some degree. I mean, one of the most important things to me about Donald Trump is this is a guy who's, like, well into his 70s at this point, and he is thinner and fitter and more on his toes than he was. You know, I mean, I remember that about working out. Well, I don't know.

[Benji Backer]

I mean, that was so funny, though. He was like, I tried lifting weights. I didn't like it, so I never did it again. And I'm like, maybe I should have that mindset, because I also hate lifting weights.

[James Polis]

Yeah.

[Benji Backer]

I don't know.

[James Polis]

I don't know what it is. Maybe it's the Diet Coke. I mean, he obviously, you know, he enjoys his McDonald's or whatever, but I remember the dark days of COVID and he got on tv and my man was looking ill, you know, and I think that hurt him. But now, after four years of Joe Biden, you know, who's. Who's another old dude.

[Benji Backer]

Joe Biden made him feel young.

[James Polis]

He did. But, you know, Biden. Biden saw a lot over the course of American history, and he didn't really talk about it. You know, he didn't really give off that kind of vibe that made people sort of remember what we lost and remember how much we just sort of, like, you know, just. Just kind of took for granted and sort of squandered. And Trump is. Has been mining this sort of vein. He did the. You know, he did the Mount Rushmore thing. He did the McDonald's fry thing. And, you know, from one standpoint, these are, like, publicity stunts or whatever, but.

[Benji Backer]

From another point, it's like signaling. It's drawing memory.

[James Polis]

Yeah. You know, it's jogging people's memory about it. Wasn't that long ago when. When we did do the World's Fair thing and when people did hop in the car and do, like, the great American road trip with their families, and there was this sense that this was like, this big, beautiful country where all the pieces kind of fit together in some way, and anywhere you would look, you'd have something to be proud of. As an American, I think that stuff is real, and I think people really miss it.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, I think something that I misunderstood, too, when he was saying it back in 2016, when he said make America great again, is I kind of took it, like. Admittedly, like a lot of people on the left, even though I'm A conservative and I have been for my whole life of just kind of like, well, not everything about America was great. And so. But that is true. But the statement's not make America perfect again.

[James Polis]

Right?

[Benji Backer]

Right. Like America never has been perfect. Donald Trump, when he says that, is not saying that he wants to go back to the negative parts of America, but the positives outweighed the negatives in American history pretty much the entire time that America's been around. He wants to return to the positive things that were good for all people. Of course he wants people to have rights and liberties and he wants both genders to have the same rights. He wants all the races to have the same rights. He wants all that stuff. That's not what he's talking about when he says make America great again. He's not talking about previous historical things that we probably didn't do that well. He's talking about, like you said, the ethos of family. He's talking about the ethos of community. He's talking about having America be strong, like in the world stage, but not get involved in unnecessary wars. Not that we have always done that, but like, there were days where we were just kind of doing our own thing and like, you know, people were serving each other and they were serving their communities and they were caring about education and health and it wasn't perfect because they didn't have all the knowledge that we have today, but it was, it was great. And like, I, you know, I think back to like, my grandparents were the most, I think, innovative 93 year olds in the world. I mean, my grandpa is like the fastest texter I've ever seen and he's 93 years old. But when he talks about the 1980s, 1970s, it was kind of this time when the people who deserved rights were getting them. America was getting really progressive on that stuff. But all the other great qualities of America that we had before were also still there. Both things were happening at the same time. And like, why not go back to that where people have the same civil liberties that they should have, but also like have like this, like Friday night football where everyone goes and watches their high school, you know, football team play and they have parades and they like want to be around each other and they care about each other. That's what he talks about when he talks about making America great again. And I think you can use that same approach on the environment and energy where we're energy independent, where we're protecting wild spaces like we were when the Clean Air Act, Clean Water act, endangered Species act, which were Nixon's ideas, came to pass, literally passed with bipartisan support in the almost unanimous levels. And why don't we return to those days, too? And I think that's what people need to realize that he wants. It's not this, like, negative aura of the negative parts of America's past. It's the good parts.

[James Polis]

Yeah, I mean, you know, people obviously talking about this big red wave here and Trump being a part of that. But, you know, go back and look at what were the past. You know, really knockout, just crushing landslide victories. And yeah, it was Reagan, but it was also Nixon.

[Benji Backer]

And these was amazing.

[James Polis]

And these are guys who got hammered from the right for like, oh, what are you doing? Creating new government agencies. And, you know, I understand all that time, you know, Nixon was the guy who wanted to take out the administrative state totally. And he's the same guy who wanted environmental protection. So, like, these things are not in. In the contradiction that people always think they are.

[Benji Backer]

Totally. It's like using. And I think, what. But when people ask, how can you say you're conservative with today's move. Because I'm a fiscal conservative, where. How can you say you're conservative when Donald Trump wants to spend money and increase the size of government in some places? And I'm like, what conservative to me means from a fiscal standpoint is using government only when it's necessary. And there are times when it's necessary, when there is smog that is filling every American city in the 1970s to the point where people are dying premature and people don't wanna give birth, that the government should probably step in when there are rivers on fire in Ohio because there's so much pollution of chemicals in the water and the private sector and the state government isn't leading when they should be. The government probably should step in there. Probably should. That's why they created the epa and like, that sort of approach, I think, is what kind of Donald Trump's taking. He's not saying that like, we need to just spend money on our only our pet projects. It's like, like, let's spend money where it should be spent. Let's use government where it should be used and then get government out of the way when it doesn't need to be used. And of course that's arbitrary. Everyone's got their own belief of where government should be used. But there are some pretty obvious points, and I think he kind of has that Nixon esque belief. And Nixon was the greatest environmental president in American history by far, and he was a Republican who used a very similar approach to what Trump could do over the next four years.

[James Polis]

We got a few minutes left. I want to talk about a couple obstacles to, you know, what, to what could be. You ran through a list of some important things. One of them was nuclear.

[Benji Backer]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And one of them is like big Ag and that kind of whole world of, of just like mass processed food and farming, just to take those two examples. Because I think they really cut to the heart of like the kind of decisions we have to make. What do you, you know, who's getting in the way and how do we blow past that?

[Benji Backer]

Well, nuclear energy, the biggest thing that's gotten in the way is the environmentalist because for a long time they actually took money from the fossil fuel lobby, largely coal, to shut down nuclear in the 1980s and 90s to fear monger people using truly bad events that did happen.

[James Polis]

Yeah, Three Mile island.

[Benji Backer]

Right. I mean, they happened. But the technology, we're 40 years past that and the technology is immensely better. Over the last 20 years, there are the least deaths associated for nuclear out of any of the energy sources by like a wide margin. If you look, if you look this up on Google, there's a graph and it's like, you know, coal, natural gas, you know, wind, solar, whatever from the mining it takes to the energy that we use at home. Nuclear has like 0.1 deaths out of like a billion.

[James Polis]

Better for the birds too, right?

[Benji Backer]

Way better for the birds. They don't have any problem with nuclear. The birds love nuclear. The birds love it. But it is the safest and most efficient energy source we have. The biggest hurdle we have is a preconceived notion that it's dangerous and scary and that we shouldn't do anything about it coming from the people who would benefit the most by embracing it, because it's the most pro environmental thing that you could possibly embrace. It is 24,7 clean electricity that has zero fossil fuel emissions associated with it. Zero. Even solar and wind, you have to use fossil fuels to like, mine for the materials. And you know, it's, it's an amazing resource that we have in nuclear, but it is expensive as an upfront cost. Over the course of the lifetime of a nuclear plant, it starts to actually become very cheap. But it is, you know, billions of dollars to build these things. And who foots the bill, Right? Not everyone cares that it'll be cheap in 20 years and the cost will actually save people money if they're not saving money right now. So the cost is a Big challenge. And that's why these smaller, more innovative technologies hopefully will take off. There's like 12 big startups from Bill Gates's TerraPower to Oklo and all these companies that are trying to come up with these smaller reactors that are small.

[James Polis]

I think that's where the action is. I mean, there's only so many of these legacy plants that you can flip the power back.

[Benji Backer]

But you got. Yeah, but you got. You have to keep their lights on. And you. I think America and Donald Trump should consider reopening closed nuclear plants because that is something that would really quickly help us get back to a place where we're energy independent because we need that energy. So I think nuclear is huge on the ag side. It's very complicated because we have a big global population to feed. There's a reason why we have mass production of food. It's not all evil and ill intended. A lot of it is like, how do we do this as cheap and efficiently as possible? When you do that, you take away a lot of the nutritional value and you also disincentivize change because you're basically just trying to go full steam ahead to feed the entire global population. So that's the challenge that sustainable and big ag have, because the incentive to change is super small when there's 7 billion people to feed around the world. But what people and those companies and what America needs to realize is that while that is true and we do need mass, you know, production of food, there are really efficient, sustainable ways, some of which Robert F. Kennedy's talked about, but also some of which he hasn't, which is like a lot of this, like carbon sequestration, keeping the soil super healthy, regenerative agriculture, he talks about some of that stuff. But like, that actually increases the efficiency of food production. And the skepticism of like making big change in big aggressive is keeping them from doing that. But a lot of this stuff could actually help them produce more food. And they are the biggest reason why it's not happening, because they don't want to have to educate their farmers. They don't want to change course, they don't want to allow that to happen. Just like the medical industry doesn't want to allow big changes to happen, Big ag also doesn't want big changes to happen. And I think we have, similar to nuclear, it might not be like, oh, we just do, you know, we're doing smaller ag production, we're doing sustainable agriculture production everywhere. We're opening nuclear plants everywhere. It's not gonna be all or nothing, but pursuing these two things could go a long way in helping America have reliable energy, have reliable food production, also lessen the cost of it, but also improve the environment. All those things are happening with those two issues.

[James Polis]

Well, it's green, it's red, it's purple. Whatever color you want, whatever color you want to attach to it.

[Benji Backer]

It doesn't matter when we're outside.

[James Polis]

It's long overdue. Benji Bakker, thank you. Go, go get those wins, bro.

[Benji Backer]

Hey, we're going to, we're going to make this issue nonpartisan again and I think it's going to happen in the Trump administration and maybe I can come back on in four years. We can talk about how we did it.

[James Polis]

Love it.

[Benji Backer]

Thanks so much.

[James Polis]

All right, cheers. That's all the time we got till next time around. I'm James Polis. This is Zero Hour and may God have mercy on us all.