← Zero Hour with James Poulos
Zero Hour with James Poulos
Ep 81 | MAHA & Jesus: Why America Is Undergoing Radical Transformation I Nicole Shanahan
00:27:55
In this exclusive interview with RFK’s former running mate, Nicole Shanahan, James Poulos sits down with her at Turning Point’s AmericaFest 2024 to discuss the upcoming transformation that America is about to undergo.
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- [00:01]
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- [00:59]
Bobby
Nicole Shanahan, thank you so much for joining us. It's amfest. It's a crazy moment in our history, and history is being made.
- [01:07]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah, it's incredible to be here. I'm just like, so grateful.
- [01:12]
Bobby
So, you know, there's so much to get into. I mean, I think that one of the biggest things for me is we saw the way this election played out. We saw the way that a handful of, you know, let's face it, it's tech. It's mostly guys took that one step in a scary direction to say, you know what, Donald Trump is the guy. And we're not gonna to the people in charge of these established corporations, big tech, big pharma, big ag, all these guys, we're not going to take instructions from them anymore. We want to return freedom and opportunity to the people and of course, to ourselves. That moment was so big, and here's why. It's because, you know what, when you think about the whole concept of like, like change makers, change agents, innovative people, all of those forces that were arrayed against Donald Trump portrayed themselves that way. They wanted that branding. They wanted to say, we're the guys who are going to lead you into the next, you, the next era of humanity. We're going to bring everyone together, we're going to increase, we're going to empower you, we're going to celebrate you. And what we found out, especially over the course of the past couple of years, is that was all sort of like an elaborate propaganda campaign. And so it's great that now, you know, like, our guys are stepping into that role and saying, like, no, we can do this, right? But I do think that a lot of Americans, even though they're very excited about what's next, I think a lot of them are sort of still shell shocked and there's like this trust deficit. They're very reluctant to sort of like T.R. anyone who's like, at the top of the pack. So how do we restore that trust and how do you think, like this sort of team of super friends that is making MAGA 2.0 happen. How do you. What steps do you think that they can take to really start to restore trust the American people?
- [02:49]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah, you know, I think about this transition team and how different it was from the 2016 transition team. Vastly different. You know, I see all of these people, like, making, you know, the, the trips out to Mar A LA to meet with Donald Trump. That did not happen in 2016. The people who were calling Trump and censoring him, calling him, you know, a Nazi, censoring him, keeping him off any positive search results, making sure anytime media spoke of him, it was negative. I mean, they're trekking out the Washington Post, owned by Jeff Bezos, probably one of the meanest liberal news outlets out there. They had, you know, just really sharp teet this last. This, this, like, just this election.
- [03:43]
Bobby
And.
- [03:43]
Nicole Shanahan
And Jeff Bezos is, you know, going out. It's like going to Mecca. Right. And it's just being like, I'm really sorry. Right. I mean, that's what it is.
- [03:53]
Bobby
Like, says that he wants conservative voices on the editorial page. How much do you think of that is real and how much of that is just kind of like, you know, you sort of bow to the king and then five minutes later you start working against him.
- [04:04]
Nicole Shanahan
Look, these, these business leaders and tech leaders, they didn't. That they were, by, you know, not being flexible with who is the status quo. Right. And it really is, you know, bending a knee to whomever you need to to just grow your business. The thing is, is that there is something about the people around Trump that are different than what has become of the Democratic Party. And, you know, someone said this to me, and I think it's kind of accurate. The vibe around Trump is kind of like the vibe of the Democratic Party as it was really coming up in the late 80s and early 90s. There was this sense of professionalism, of virtue, of honesty, of transparency. You know, I don't know if it was true at the time, but like, that. That was what the perception was. And so it's sophistication and savvy and kind of like taking the latest and greatest of technology and taking the latest and greatest of. And. But that's. That's left the Democratic Party because they've gotten so dark.
- [05:18]
Bobby
Yeah.
- [05:18]
Nicole Shanahan
In so many ways. And anyone that's still grasping to those, you know, Democratic Party virtues of, you know, the 80s, 70s, 90s, they're not happy. They just don't know that they're ready to make the jump, because making the jump is kind of scary.
- [05:38]
Bobby
It is scary, but that's, you Know, that's, that's where transformation comes from. I mean, you look at what's going on on the quote, unquote, right, with technology, that's where all the momentum is politics. That's where all the momentum is culture. It's looking a little, you know, no one has really figured out how to reconstitute a pop culture that is. That has spirituality, that has vitality, that knows how to have fun, that doesn't sort of slip into the dark planet that, you know, that we've seen so much of established entertainment go into.
- [06:09]
Nicole Shanahan
Do you feel authentic?
- [06:10]
Bobby
Yes. And that's. Do you feel hopeful about the future of pop culture in America?
- [06:16]
Nicole Shanahan
You know, I do. And I think independent media, independent music, social media, it's really giving birth to that and giving it like this great evergreen situation. So if you're a creator, an artist, or you want to try a new mixed medium, or you want to try something so radical and go no tech, but, but get out the result as like a, you know, a video or whatever like that, that's going to make the rounds. Because, you know, following the zeitgeist, it's very interesting right now because it's not being a. It's not necessarily a manufactured zeitgeist. The Democratic Party aligned itself with the manufactured zeitgeist. That was like the Hollywood, the music industry. That's all manufactured zeitgeist by corporatists. Then you have this organic zeitgeist. That's what you see on X, that's what you see here at Amfest. And when you follow that organic zeitgeist, it's like, it is, oh, man, talk about like exalted emotions. It feels really great and there's something intoxicating about it. And all these young people, you know, they didn't have to necessarily leave an entrenched position with the Democratic Party. They just kind of woke up and they got drawn to it. And that's how, you know, it's good.
- [07:41]
Bobby
I think that generational change is so huge. I mean, we're actually starting to stack like younger generations now. And for these kids, you know, they're like, well, of course I voted for Trump. You know, it's like it's not a big deal. I mean, obviously it's important, but this is becoming sort of like an acceptable baseline. You know, this is kind of where that trust begins to resurrect. When you have people who, you know, they were tweens during COVID or they were, they were younger than that and they saw, you know, Half their life, a quarter of their life just sort of zapped away by people with no accountability. People who pressured them to do things they knew that they didn't want to do. And now they're coming of age, they're becoming adults.
- [08:18]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah, they are. And I think that, you know, I talk a lot about my concerns about biological health. Right. And I think as much as culture can start to understand how deeply connected and I see this, I see signs of this. You know, young people craving farmland is like a cool pop culture, like ballerina farms. I follow her, she's incredible. And I follow this woman also that will like cook these huge meals outside on a fire pit and she'll hang a roast and show you what a slow roast used to look like.
- [09:03]
Bobby
I think the biggest app game right now is Farm Simulator.
- [09:06]
Nicole Shanahan
Oh, really?
- [09:06]
Bobby
Yeah, I think so.
- [09:08]
Nicole Shanahan
I think that's fantastic.
- [09:10]
Bobby
So I ask you this culture question and I'll sort of answer my own question about trust because I think these things are really interlinked my experience. You know, I sort of go, I go back to 2016 and even before that into the distant, sort of foggy memory of, of the dark ages of, of the Obama administration. And so many of those guys who are sort of first wave Trump guys were Californians.
- [09:37]
Nicole Shanahan
And so many, you know, this hat.
- [09:39]
Bobby
Yeah.
- [09:40]
Nicole Shanahan
Made in California.
- [09:41]
Bobby
Yeah.
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Nicole Shanahan
So this, we manufactured this at the OG MAGA hat factory in California.
- [09:48]
Bobby
Yeah, There you go. So, you know, I grew up in California, 20 years in and around LA. So many of those 2016 guys were Californian guys who are like, look, we've seen the future and it sucks. And you can trust us because we just lived through what they want to do to everyone. 2020 Covid the VAX mandates the very first people who raised the red flag on that, at least, you know, in my experience, were like crunchy ladies living in Topanga Canyon who are like, we need to say no to this and I don't care, like which friends of mine are going to be offended.
- [10:26]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah.
- [10:27]
Bobby
Once again it was coming out of California and now we come up to 2024 and we got little tech and we got those Silicon Valley guys. And we have seen this for, what is this? Three election cycles. California is going like, we are slamming the alarm button here. Like, you can listen to us and you trust us because we saw all happen here first.
- [10:47]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah, I think that has been the most mind blowing and very confusing thing that has happened in towns like Topanga. Seeing like the most crunchy ladies who are, you know, smudging their Homes voting for Trump.
- [11:04]
Bobby
Yeah. Star seeds for Trump. It's happening.
- [11:06]
Nicole Shanahan
And they're. Yeah. And they're just like. It does not reconcile. But then it does. When you really think about it, it makes total sense because those people in Topanga want freedom. Just. And Trump wants. He's all about freedom and he's all about the Constitution. And, you know, these might be different, like scriptures or documents or whatever, but at the end of the day, they're about sovereignty of spirit.
- [11:31]
Bobby
That's a great answer. I like that answer a lot.
- [11:33]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah.
- [11:34]
Bobby
Let's talk about health and spiritual sovereignty. Okay. Because what I've. I've. This has been really fascinating to me, what we've got going on in tech right now. Sort of like two visions of the future. And one vision is we're going to accelerate into the future. It's going to be awesome. And we're going to really give human beings the best of what our tools can provide. And the other vision is we're going to accelerate it in the future. It's going to be incredibly awesome. And you're not even gonna be a human being anymore.
- [12:09]
Nicole Shanahan
Right.
- [12:09]
Bobby
We're gonna be free. Talk about spiritual sovereignty. We're gonna be like, the angels are gonna be floating in space. It's gonna be incredible. And this tension between, you know, is this like a. Like an optimized for humanity movement? Is that our vision of health or is it a transcend our humanity movement?
- [12:30]
Nicole Shanahan
Transcend or transhumanist?
- [12:32]
Bobby
Well, right, yeah. Is it posthuman? Is it transhuman? Is it. Where do you think? The center?
- [12:38]
Nicole Shanahan
You know, I. I mean, that was the basis of my speech today. And I think, you know where I fall on that. I think that we need a carve out for humans who want to be fully biologic humans. We need a carve out for that. We need protections. We need to use the Constitution to protect that right to be a fully biological human. And look, if you want to augment and put, you know, all the augmented, different medical, expensive things that you're going to be attached to for the rest of your life, like, it's your choice. Yeah, it's your choice. But you cannot create an environment where you're blocking out the sun and preventing those who want to be fully human from getting that opportunity. And that's what I'm all about. That's why I'm here. That's why I keep coming out day after day. That's what I'm looking to invest in. That's the future. I want. I want to sign up for fully human existence. And I want my child and her children or, you know, if I have more children, like, I want them to have that option.
- [13:51]
Bobby
I am so here for that. I am working. You know, I go around. Usually when I talk about digital rights to people, it's like, yes, we should have the right to mine and use Bitcoin. You know, yes, we should have the right to buy high powered GPUs instead of have Gavin Newsom or whoever. Don't poison my water source, don't poison my water supply. And don't think that you have a civil right to become some kind of cyborg with eight tentacles and to walk around in public and expect people to respect you and treat you in a certain way.
- [14:18]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah, I mean, that's interesting. Like, you know, someone asked me today if AI should have its own separate constitution. And I'm like, no, it shouldn't. But we should have AI specific laws that require to respect human life, human alignment laws. And those need to be very clearly stated. Every AI should be trained in our individual sovereign rights under the Constitution. The AI should understand what that means. Human alignment is something that we have to protect right now because it can very, very easily get away from us. I mean, we already had. I think it was Gemini. Someone asked Gemini something and it came back with like an awful response about like how human life was unimportant and meaningless. And that's not, that's not true. That AI is broken and that AI ought to be taken off the market. And creators of AI like that, they need to be held accountable. And so it's, it is all possible, but if we don't actually understand the frameworks for how to accomplish that, we won't accomplish it.
- [15:35]
Bobby
Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's been one of the biggest hurdles that I have to try to clear when talking about this with people. I mean, just to take Bitcoin again as an example, it seems so often that the people who best understand Bitcoin have sort of the hardest time understanding, like Christ's Church. And then the people who are like the most devout Christians have the hardest time understanding because. And I'm like, you know, we need to find a way for Christians to understand how to use technology and how to be good stewards of technology and how to master technology. Because if you're not mastering it, then like, you can pretty much guarantee that it's going to be mastering you or some people who don't agree with you on the same sanctity of human life and sort of you know, what it is to have real rights and responsibilities in a free society. They're going to use it on you. How do you think that we can sort of help Christians to understand that, you know, just because it's a technology that seems a little weird doesn't mean it's from the devil, but also like, yes, we are in sort of a spiritual war that intersects with this kind of digital war that's playing out around the world.
- [16:41]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah, it's really interesting. You know, I think a lot. I often. I spend probably more time than I should thinking about the organization Jews for Jesus. Right. Because it's. It's like a very interesting concept, Right. It's taking all the, you know, the people that are, you know, born Jewish and study the Talmud and getting them to be like, and here's the New Testament, and just try reading it. Right? Just. Just try.
- [17:09]
Bobby
Come and see.
- [17:10]
Nicole Shanahan
And, you know, I. I think that there's a real beauty in that. And, you know, similarly, I think there could be, like, Bitcoin for Jesus. Right. As like a first olive branch. And, you know, it's not that, like, bitcoin itself is an entity, but those people who, like, you know, understand the power of bitcoin, that this is a currency separate from fiat, that this is a currency that a government cannot necessarily control. They can control the laws around its use, but they actually can't control it. Yeah, Not. Not in a. In a, you know, constitutional republic, at least.
- [17:54]
Bobby
Yeah.
- [17:56]
Nicole Shanahan
So I think that there is a very interesting thing about decentralized, you know, decentralized Christianity. Right. If you talk about the fact that there's, you know, all of these different churches dedicated to Christ, and they're different. They have different traditions, but they're all, like, fundamentally, you know, for the New Testament, they're for the worship of, you know, Christ our Lord. But it's decentralized. And I think you can explain it that way. Right. Bitcoin is a decentralized currency, and it's based around a belief, a true belief in freedom. It really is about freedom. And anyone who holds bitcoin understands that.
- [18:50]
Bobby
Are you concerned at all that bitcoin is slowly being stripped of its original character and is being turned into just another flavor of gelato in the established financial gelato shop?
- [19:05]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah, look, I was. I've been in the bitcoin blockchain world. I was one of the first blockchain lawyers. And we even, back in 2015, had the bank circling the community. I think it was called R3, was one of the earliest consortiums of banks that were trying to get their, you know, fingers into bitcoin and the regulatory, monetary, fiscal policies that they're entrenched in. Kind of, you know, around bitcoin too. It's been there for a long time. But I have to say there's something about the core developers. There's something about, like the real hardcore people who look at Bitcoin first through the lens of liberty and then second as a digital currency. They're out there and they're fantastic. President Bukele in El Salvador is the first to really use a centralized bank to hold Bitcoin. And it is public tender in El Salvador too. So there's. We're. See, we're in it right now. It's being tested. It's being tested as. As can it hold up. The price of it is. Has just skyrocketed. It's extraordinary. It's like 107,108.
- [20:41]
Bobby
Come. Come back down. You know, you got to shed some people as you. As you make the climb, but it seems like it's just going to keep. Keep mooning.
- [20:48]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah. So it's here to stay. It's multinational, so it is here to stay. And I think there is a inherent tension between the U.S. dOL. The Global.
- [20:59]
Bobby
Right. Reserve currency.
- [21:00]
Nicole Shanahan
Reserve currency. What happens if that becomes Bitcoin or gold?
- [21:08]
Bobby
Yeah, well, on the other hand, you look at where all the action in bitcoin is and, you know, this is. This goes for other cryptos as well and just kind of new, new tech companies, AI companies. It's all happening here. I mean, Europe is aggressively tapping out of that system. China wanted to walk away from it.
- [21:25]
Nicole Shanahan
I think that last year wanted to do its own.
- [21:27]
Bobby
Yeah, that's right.
- [21:28]
Nicole Shanahan
China wants to digitize its own kind of China only control of all things, which is not where we want to go.
- [21:37]
Bobby
No, it's not. Although there's still some Americans who are sort of like, you know, there is this kind of China envy where it's like, oh, you know, they've got everyone on the same page. Everyone's doing the same thing. There's so many of them. They're just going to beat us with scale. Do you worry about that?
- [21:50]
Nicole Shanahan
I'm not. I'm not at all. Because innovation, the kind that like the private markets like, requires freedom. Because it's, you know, going back to what I said. There's this manufactured zeitgeist versus an organic zeitgeist.
- [22:08]
Bobby
Yeah.
- [22:08]
Nicole Shanahan
And we see a friend in the audience holding broccoli for me.
- [22:14]
Bobby
Broccoli let's go.
- [22:18]
Nicole Shanahan
Hi guys. Oh my God, I can't wait to say hi to him. So humans will always be drawn to a non manufactured zeitgeist and put higher value on that because the human condition, there's something about it that really loves authenticity and savvy newness. Like it's almost part of like the sexual drive. Right. It is a, it's this innate thing.
- [22:49]
Bobby
It'S fertile, it's generative. You know, this is how spiritual energy moves between and among people. You gotta invest your spiritual treasure.
- [22:58]
Nicole Shanahan
Yes. And so in a country, and this is why America always ends up on top, because we protect that. We protect it because we know that that only comes from freedom. Art can only thrive in space, open space, you know, true art, like the kind of art that comes from this primordial place within us. So no, I'm not worried about China. I mean, I'm worried about China's ability to manufacture weapons cheaply and our inability to manufacture weapons cheaply. But I, you know, I try not to worry about war too much. I don't want to put my energy there. I want to put my energy towards ending wars. Yeah, so that's. But, yeah, but to your point, I'm not worried about, I'm not worried about.
- [23:47]
Bobby
Yeah, well, just, just to take up the war thing, I mean we saw coming out of that, you know, this classic mid century big government liberalism, Lyndon Johnson, you know, we're going to have a war on poverty and we saw how that went. And we're going to have a war on drugs, and we saw how that went. And a war in Vietnam and we saw how that went too. And you Fast forward to 2024. America has been very good historically at protecting freedom and protecting health. It got real bad at that. And in fact, you know this better than anyone, you know, this sort of union of public and private sector power, concentrated power, started to actively turn against the health and safety of the American people in the name of health and safety. And so, you know, you just look at where the, the American people are as, as a population and a lot of people are in crisis. Deep, profound physical illness, mental illness, spiritual illness. And you know, on the one hand you don't want to just sort of inject everyone with some sort of serum and you know, oh, we're gonna zempic for everyone. Right. You don't necessarily want to do that. But we also, it doesn't feel like we have 10, 15 years to just kind of slowly nudge everyone back to a place of sort of wholeness and vitality. If we don't want to do a sort of war, sort of mobilizing all of society to kind of make America healthy again. Right. Just, just help us understand, like, what does that timeline look like, how fast is too fast. But how do we sort of get people back on track in, in a period of time that's going to be fast enough so that we don't find ourselves, you know, really in a serious sort of cultural collapse?
- [25:33]
Nicole Shanahan
Yeah. You know, I'll tell you how I'm looking at it is we have teams. And I think what makes the union between Maha and Maga so important is that we've all of many of our resources. So, you know, legal resources, civil rights, related lawsuits to the right to sunshine. Right. Or the right, like we have the right to health, we have the right to know, we have the right to consent to what's happening to our human biology. So combining forces on legal resources, combining forces around political resources is really, really important because it doesn't make sense if we're fighting each other. Right. And that was what I think was most important about this election, was the moment that, you know, Bobby and I circled the bubble, filled in the bubble next to Donald Trump's name, and bowed out because we knew that we needed to combine forces, resources, our people to get this stuff done. And that's the path forward. It is literally the only path forward because we have to be in the majority with this effort.
- [26:57]
Bobby
Well, I mean, I'm right there with you. I know that many other Americans are as well. It felt like the two parties sort of didn't pay attention to this stuff and it fell through the cracks. And it's really the most fundamental. I mean, you can't have greatness without goodness, and you can't have goodness without, without health of soul and body, healing of soul and body. So we got the swag here. I'm already wearing a hat, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a two hat guy. Nicole Shanahan, thank you so much for joining us.
- [27:24]
Nicole Shanahan
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [27:25]
Bobby
All right, cheers.
- [27:26]
Nicole Shanahan
Cheers.