Ep 88 | ADDICTED for Life: How Big Tech Is Poisoning Your Kids | Clare Morell

Summary

Zero Hour with James Poulos: Episode 88 Summary
Title: ADDICTED for Life: How Big Tech Is Poisoning Your Kids
Host: James Poulos
Guest: Claire Morell, Author, Mother, and Fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center
Release Date: March 9, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 88 of Zero Hour with James Poulos, host James Poulos engages in a profound conversation with Claire Morell, an author, mother, and fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. The discussion delves into the pervasive influence of Big Tech on children, exploring how digital technologies are shaping young minds and the societal implications of their widespread use.

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The Screen Time Trap

Claire Morell introduces the concept of the "screen time trap," highlighting the dilemma parents face when managing their children's digital consumption. She argues that while many parents are aware of the potential harms of excessive screen time, the solutions offered by tech companies—such as screen time limits and parental controls—are merely harm reduction measures and do not address the root cause of the problem.

Claire Morell [01:23]: "Parents are often caught in what I call the screen time trap... these digital technologies aren't good for kids... these strategies are just harm reduction measures. They're always the acceptance of some level of harm."

Morell emphasizes that these measures fail to provide meaningful control, leaving parents frustrated as children either circumvent restrictions or continue to encounter harmful content.

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Mental and Neural Health Effects

The conversation shifts to the mental health crisis among teens, with references to studies by Jonathan Haidt and Gene Twenge that link the rise of social media and smartphone ubiquity to increased rates of anxiety, depression, and self-harm.

Claire Morell [04:20]: "They knew these things were addictive to kids and they weren't doing anything about it. In fact, that is their business model."

Morell discusses how the developing brains of children are particularly vulnerable to the overstimulation caused by constant digital engagement, leading to addictive behaviors that are difficult to moderate.

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The Addictive Design of Tech Companies

Claire Morell critiques the business models of major tech companies, asserting that their primary goal is to maximize user attention and data for advertising revenues, inherently making their products addictive. She likens social media platforms to "digital fentanyl," describing them as predatory industries that exploit human vulnerabilities.

Claire Morell [05:00]: "So, fundamentally these strategies are just harm reduction measures... they are an inherently predatory industry preying on our human vulnerabilities."

Morell points out that the solutions offered by tech companies do not alter these harmful business models, leaving the core issues unaddressed.

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Pornography and Its Impact

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the alarming rise in early exposure to pornography among children, exacerbated by the omnipresence of smartphones. Morell highlights the ineffectiveness of content filters and the ease with which children can access explicit material, even on school-issued devices.

Claire Morell [19:53]: "73% of teens have now been exposed to pornography... more than half of these kids are just coming across this stuff by accident."

She connects this early exposure to increased rates of child-on-child sexual assault and the normalization of dehumanizing and aggressive sexual content, which skews children's understanding of healthy relationships.

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Gaming and Competition

The conversation extends to the world of online gaming, where Claire Morell discusses how competitive gaming environments can foster addictive behaviors similar to those seen with social media. She explains that the dopamine-driven reward systems in games encourage continuous play, often at the expense of real-life social interactions and emotional well-being.

Claire Morell [32:27]: "The screen had completely mimicked these same symptoms and just taking it away just reduced their symptoms entirely."

Morell also touches on the psychological impacts of gaming, such as social anxiety and impaired impulse control, further emphasizing the need for stringent measures to protect young minds.

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Policy Recommendations

Claire Morell advocates for comprehensive policy solutions to protect children from the detrimental effects of digital technologies. She proposes age restrictions on access to certain technologies during childhood and calls for legislative actions to hold tech companies accountable for their role in fostering addictive environments.

Claire Morell [46:41]: "We can both have free speech and protect childhood... we can hold both together, and there are constitutional solutions to be able to protect kids from harmful pornography."

Morell underscores the importance of collective action, comparing the regulation of digital technologies to existing safeguards for harmful substances like alcohol and tobacco, which are restricted for minors.

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Political Context and Trump’s Influence

The discussion also delves into the political landscape, particularly the resurgence of Donald Trump and his administration's stance on technology regulation. Morell expresses optimism that Trump's influence could lead to stronger protections for children online, aligning with her advocacy for shielding childhood from harmful digital content.

Claire Morell [41:30]: "I'm hopeful that they'll be actually able to find that through their schools, their churches, their communities... focusing on our schools, our neighborhoods, our churches."

She criticizes bipartisan approaches, noting fundamental differences between conservative and liberal perspectives on parental control and children's privacy online.

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Spiritual Component and Human Flourishing

A recurring theme in the conversation is the spiritual dimension of technology use. Morell argues that without a strong spiritual foundation, both parents and children are ill-equipped to navigate the moral and ethical challenges posed by digital consumption. She advocates for integrating spiritual guidance to foster human flourishing and resist the allure of endless consumption.

Claire Morell [59:12]: "The medium is the message... we're wiring kids to become mindless consumers instead of giving them the tools to be people who actually contribute and are meaningful producers and contributors to our society."

This perspective emphasizes that true human connection and fulfillment cannot be replicated by digital platforms, highlighting the necessity of real-world relationships and spiritual well-being.

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Conclusion

Episode 88 of Zero Hour with James Poulos presents a compelling critique of Big Tech's impact on children, rooted in concerns over mental health, addiction, and societal degradation. Claire Morell offers a robust argument for significant policy interventions and a return to community and spiritual values to safeguard the future well-being of the younger generation. The conversation serves as a call to action for parents, policymakers, and society at large to address the deep-seated issues wrought by unregulated digital consumption.

Claire Morell [64:21]: "We have to keep that in mind when we're thinking about how do we treat technology and what public policy solutions are needed."

As the episode concludes, listeners are left with a sense of urgency and hope, underscoring the need for collective responsibility in combating the subtle yet pervasive influence of Big Tech on our children.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Claire Morell [01:23]: "Parents are often caught in what I call the screen time trap... these digital technologies aren't good for kids... these strategies are just harm reduction measures."

• Claire Morell [04:20]: "They knew these things were addictive to kids and they weren't doing anything about it. In fact, that is their business model."

• Claire Morell [18:34]: "Pornography and social media are one in the same... it's becoming a comfort mechanism for a lot of people."

• Claire Morell [32:26]: "Before even treating patients, now she has them do a four week complete digital detox... the screen had completely mimicked these same symptoms."

• Claire Morell [46:41]: "We can both have free speech and protect childhood... we can hold both together, and there are constitutional solutions to be able to protect kids from harmful pornography."

• Claire Morell [59:12]: "The medium is the message... we're wiring kids to become mindless consumers instead of giving them the tools to be people who actually contribute and are meaningful producers and contributors to our society."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Zero Hour with James Poulos sheds light on the intricate and often detrimental relationship between Big Tech and the younger generation. Through Claire Morell's insightful analysis, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the multifaceted challenges posed by digital technologies and the urgent need for comprehensive strategies to mitigate their impact on children's development and societal well-being.

Transcript

[Claire Morell]

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[James Polis]

Do kids have a right to phones? Claire Moral says no. She's here. I'm James Polis. Welcome to Zero Hour.

[Claire Morell]

La la la la la la la.

[James Polis]

Claire Morell joins us today, an author, a mother, and a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a woman of many talents. Thanks for joining us, Claire.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks so much for having me. James.

[James Polis]

Okay, so you're a mom, you are a student of tech and tech policy and you're telling us that we need to just take the phones away?

[Claire Morell]

Yes, we do. So parents are often caught in what I call the screen time trap. So most parents know that these digital technologies aren't good for kids, but they've been sold this illusion from the tech companies themselves that if you just put screen time limits and our parental controls, then you can mitigate these harms. But fundamentally these strategies are just harm reduction measures. They're always the acceptance of some level of harm. And my public policy research has convinced me that they're not sufficient for protecting kids. And parents really end up in what I call a lose lose situation where they're frustrated because they don't feel like they actually have real control over these devices. The screen time limits don't work. The kids always want more because these technologies are addictive by design. And so, and they're not. And then the kids aren't sufficiently protected. Parents are shocked that their kids continue to encounter dangerous content or find ways around the screen time limits. And so they're not effective. And so parents are frustrated. And I really place the blame on the tech companies for designing products that are inherently addictive to kids and then trying to tell parents they can somehow stand between a child and this drug dispensing machine, the screen, that's just wired to addict our children. And so I, in my public policy research frequently got asked by parents, well, what should I do? I realize you're advocating for policy solutions, but here I am on the front lines with my kids and my research convinced me that I was never going to give these technologies to my own children. But they were young. So I recognized I hadn't navigated the teen years yet. Like, was this actually possible to opt out? So I started reading all the parenting books available. Like, what were they recommending to parents? What could I tell parents for advice? And all of them said, well, these things are terrible, but, you know, just put screen time limits in place. And it seemed to me that the solutions were not adequate for the level of harm. And so I started interviewing parents. I heard of hundreds of families who had opted out, and I ended up interviewing dozens for my book and found that not only was it possible to opt out completely from these addictive digital technologies, but these families were flourishing. Their grown children in college were grateful that they had not been given smartphones. They saw the differences even among their peers on the college campus. And so I then decided that no one had written a book telling parents it was okay to opt out. And actually, it is what's best for your kid. And so I wrote that book, and it's called the Tech exit, will come out in June of next year.

[James Polis]

All right, so hugely controversial, you know, for good or for ill, you know, that you're sort of walking into the midst of a huge fight here. So let's just kind of unpack this. Yeah, you did the interviews. What else? You know, what other kind of concrete information, data is out there that people can sort of get a grip on? You know, what. What kind of harms are we talking about here? How severe is the problem? How can they orient themselves in the data?

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, so I think a lot of people have, you know, read the articles by Jonathan Haidt in Gene Twenge that these things are causing this mental health epidemic among kids. Anxiety and rates of depression, suicide, self harm have skyrocketed. And it's. It lines up exactly with the release of social media, the kind of ubiquity of smartphones among teens. So I think there's been a lot of attention on the kind of teen mental health crisis, which is why, again, parents have been kind of told, well, to mitigate those mental health harms, just put time limits in place. You can kind of avoid these things. I think what I have tried to encourage parents is that we actually have to look deeper at the business model of these companies. And this information, I think, is increasingly coming out in some of the recent lawsuits we've seen that state attorney generals have brought against primarily Meta and TikTok that shows that from their own internal research, they knew these things were addictive to kids and they weren't doing anything about it. In fact, that is their business model. Want to maximize user attention, time and data to sell it to advertisers. And so I think understanding that at a deeper level, it's not just the mental health is actually like a symptom of a much deeper kind of spiritual disease afflicting childhood, which is that the tech kind of technology itself is really turning children into mindless consumers, that they become addicted to the dopamine inducing features of these technologies. And the companies know this and that's their profit model. And they're not trying to protect kids from these harms. And so the controls they offer parents are really not actually changing that underlying business model whatsoever. It's like putting a band aid on this kind of gaping wound. And so to kind of direct parents, I would say, you know, look at these recent lawsuits and the kind of documentation that's coming out. You know, the Wall Street Journal has also sufficiently covered the kind of Facebook files, this research that Facebook did themselves, that showed these things were harmful. And so I think digging a level deeper, just what kind of mental health studies have been done to understand the nature of this is really important. So I would direct parents to kind of look, look beneath what's happening, not just the mental health harms, but what is this tech trying to accomplish? And if it's not trying to be, they don't want you to use their product in moderation, which is what parents want. Right. But they actually want you to give as much of your time and attention as possible to it. And I think understanding that they are an inherently predatory industry preying on our human vulnerabilities is important to understand as a parent.

[James Polis]

Yeah. So I definitely wanna get into the spiritual component of this in a bit, but just, you know, because there are these objections. Right. And people are like, well, you know, come on, I mean, a little bit is okay. Or is this really just about the porn or, you know, I have a job and I can't afford a sitter or whatever it is. There are lots of, lots of justifications for, you know, well, a little bit you. They can have a little bit of sugar. I mean, tv, everyone was mad at TV before the phones came along. They're turning my kid into the boob tube, is rotting their brains. So how do you draw the line? How do you say that? Well, up until this point, it was more or less okay, but now we've entered into a new world. Now it's a crisis situation.

[Claire Morell]

It's a good question. I think for me, what's really convinced me about this is a lot of the brain research that's been done. So there's mental health harms, but really, what's the effect that's actually happening on the br, Particularly a developing brain of a child that's still very high in its plasticity. It means its neural pathways are still being formed. This is like a critical period of development. And so I think we actually have a metaphor problem when it comes to digital tech. I think we've been trying to treat it like sugar, something that, you know, is to be enjoyed in moderation and otherwise balanced diet. And, you know, sometimes you can kind of splurge and have a treat. But I think if you look at the brain research, so scientists measure how addictive something is by how much dopamine is released in the brain, by that activity or substance, and how quickly it's released. And dopamine, for those who may not be familiar, is a neurotransmitter. It gives us a burst of pleasure in the brain that is actually meant to incentivize us to repeat that behavior, to do it again. And so think, and it satisfies. It's supposed to satisfy a biological need. So we get bursts of dopamine when we eat food or have sex. And so it's supposed to help humans actually pursue biological needs that we have. But what happens with digital tech is that it releases these dopamine hits in the brain above, like, a normal amount. And so they've done studies on rats, and if rats are given chocolate, it releases, like, 50% more than normal than a normal amount of dopamine. Sex is like, 100%. Okay. Then you get into drugs like nicotine is like, 150% more than the average amount of dopamine. And then cocaine's like 225%, and amphetamines are 1,000%, so extremely addictive. Well, while we can't test social media exposure on rats, you can look at brain imaging studies, and it shows that frequent exposure to social media impacts the brain similarly to the most highly addictive drugs like cocaine. And so what I try to tell parents is we have a metaphor problem. This technology really can't be used in moderation. It's releasing such an unnaturally high amount of dopamine. And the thing is that dopamine just creates craving for more. It doesn't actually produce lasting satisfaction or fulfillment. It's incentivizing us to make us repeat the behavior. And so no time limit is really enough. A kid is always going to crave and want more and more of this thing. And what I also tell parents is, listen, the physical time limit doesn't match on to the kind of mental, emotional time limit that this app might be occupying in a child's brain. So yes, maybe they be. They're on the app for just 15 minutes a day, but because that craving has been produced, they just are constantly wondering, well, who else has liked my post? Like, has someone sent me a new message? Do I have a new follower? And it can really mentally consume a child's brain and emotional energy throughout the day. Even if after they've, quote, unquote left the virtual world, they can still be living there mentally. And so I've tried to help parents understand. Treating it like sugar is really not the right metaphor. It's more like digital fentanyl.

[James Polis]

So what's really interesting to me here is, you know, it's not just kids. We see this with people who grew up with social media and they're still sort of like locked in. And over time they become more committed, but they also become more anxiety ridden.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And you know, the thing about. And you can, you can look to just accounts of like, drug use, drug addiction.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

My favorite example, probably like the Patrick Melrose novels, there was a series, Bennet Cumberbatch was in it, and they did a little Patrick. And so one of the, one of the novels is basically about, you know, sort of like privileged trust fund guy. I'm oversimplifying.

[Claire Morell]

Sure.

[James Polis]

Becomes a heroin addict. And as the addiction progresses that, you know, the, the, the incentive and the trajectory of the addiction is to push ever higher toward that point where the pleasure and the anxiety completely converge and one is indistinguishable from the other. And in order to reach that kind of moment of euphoria, you have to overshoot it, you know, so you have to get so high that you're basically like going insane knowing and hoping that you'll like, you know, as it eases off, then you'll sort of ease into that zone of pleasure that you want to be in. So I'm going, you know, what's the point here? The point is that, like, the pleasure and the pain, you know, there's like a sadomasochistic trap that people end up in. And it can be literal drugs, it can be social media, it can be many things.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

It can be food, you know, addiction. This is kind of the psychosis that addiction builds. And why this is so interesting to me is because there's an emerging divide in tech right now, and that divide is among. On the one hand, you've got, like, these pure engineer guys who are like, if you are going into the jungle and you're doing ayahuasca, you're going to get one shotted by the shaman, you're going to come back, you're not going to want to work anymore. You're just going to want to sit naked in the jungle. And, you know, I've lost friends to Aya, and, like, they become so unproductive. And then on the other hand, you've got these tech guys who are like, no, no, no, no, no. If you're chained to your terminal all day, it's going to suck the life out of you. You need to have a spiritual awakening. You got to go do the drugs. You got to have ego death. And there's this tension here because on the one hand, like, technology does seem to be pushing people, even at the very top, toward this kind of spiritual crisis where they feel like they have to have a complete sort of mental break with their own creations.

[Claire Morell]

That's crazy.

[James Polis]

But then on the other hand, you've got guys who are like, no, it's basically just tools. And if you find yourself being driven into a kind of state of spiritual collapse because you're misusing your own tools, like, that's not the tool's fault. That's something about you. So when I'm trying to, like, talk. Talk about these issues with tech guys, it does seem to be reductive to say, well, it's just the phones. The answer is for everyone to shoot their phones. You know, just like, I remember, like, early 2000s, suddenly it became okay for, like, musicians to say, I mean, Red Hot Chili Peppers, throw away your television. You know, Marilyn Manson was like, God is in the tv. Kill your God. Kill your tv. This was like a powerful message.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And a lot of people were. They were getting rid of cable. They're like, TV sucks. Now, there was this little window between, like, 2000 and 2006 where people were just starting to stumble out of, like, the TV haze, but hadn't got pulled back in through the phones. So I recognize that the phones have the issues, but there's this larger issue about, you know, and we'll get into the spiritual stuff in a bit.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

About where that. That sort of. That. That dilemma or that trap of addiction comes from. And so if. If the answer isn't to just have society abandon all of this technology.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

Obviously, a lot of what you've been talking about is the social media piece.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

So is, you know, the first step or the most important step to recognize that there's something about social media that is especially pernicious.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

And if you can sort of peel your kid away from that.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

Or even if you can just go to your kid and be like, look, you know, if you just want to like use this as a TV for whatever, that's going to be a different experience. Might not be a healthy experience, but it's going to be a different experience from, from getting into that psychotic sort of collective consciousness mode.

[Claire Morell]

No, definitely. And I think, you know, thinking about addiction. Right. Like my work is really primarily focused on kids. Like I think we recognize that, you know, kids brains are still developing, particularly when it comes to the dopamine issue. Like 10 to 12 year old brains, their dopamine receptors are multiplying. And it's a normal biological process of development. It's supposed to help kids turn outward more from their family to want to have acceptance by their peers. And so that kind of natur progression to be more responsive to social rewards is really being hijacked by social media because they're just. Then their brain receptors become overwhelmed by these constant dopamine hits. And brain studies like one by the University of North Carolina in 2023 showed that these kind of frequent checkers of social media, these sixth and seventh graders, became more sensitized to those types of rewards over time. And Dr. Anna Lemke, she wrote this book, Dopamine Nation, and she's an addiction scientist researcher at Stanford. And she explains that then what happens though is you become overly sensitive to these kind of online social rewards. And what happens though is that then you need ever higher amounts of dopamine to experience that same rush of pleasure. And what it does is it desensitizes the brain over time to natural rewards from our real physical world. And so I think that's another kind of concern when we're talking about like addiction and recognizing that these things are kind of inherently addictive. Adult brains, there's just a different calculus. Our brains are more fully developed. We have a fully functioning, what we call our prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for your impulse control, your emotional regulation, your self control. That part of the brain isn't fully developed till 25. And so before then they say like kind of kids brains when it comes to social media is like all gas with no breaks. Like they just want more and more and more and they don't even actually have the biological ability to kind of put the brakes on. And so I think like Treating it as kind of an addiction, like through the lens of addiction, I think we can recognize, yeah, this stuff is harmful for adults, but they're a little bit more capable of self regulating this. Now I would still say, like we're prone to its addictive effects and we need to kind of consider what that would look like in our own lives to kind of moderate our use so that it's not detrimental to our well being and flourishing. But when it comes to kids, for me it's really compelling that this stuff is just not good for kids. We need to age restricted out of childhood. And if congress doesn't do that, I'm just telling parents, if I'm a parent, I'm going to opt out completely until they get to an age where this is something they can handle. And I think when you protect childhood from that, you're really protecting even just their habit formation. So that even when they do maybe eventually get a smartphone as an adult or make a social media account, they kind of have this vision of themselves without the technology. There will always be a tether for them to know like what life can be like without it. And then they can recognize when something is becoming too much for them and kind of can put the brakes on themselves. And that was my experience interviewing some of these kids I called from the tech exit families in college. They could recognize, you know, when their use was becoming problematic. And this kid said he got a smartphone, but he could recognize when he was on it too much and would then just delete an app or, you know, take steps to be on it less. And so I think that's my main focus is like we just at least need to protect childhood from these things so they can have a chance of a healthy use of technology as adults.

[James Polis]

Yeah, it's harder to dial it back and self regulate when deep down in your heart you identify as a cyborg already. You know, this is just like a part of you, but you know, it's. I mean, we kind of left out the one form of addiction that is probably, I mean, if it's not number one in America and I don't have numbers on these things, but it's just kind of, you know, you absorb is pornography.

[Claire Morell]

Oh, 100.

[James Polis]

And so when you combine the porn and the social media and the puberty.

[Claire Morell]

Oh my goodness, yes.

[James Polis]

I don't have numbers on this. Maybe you do. But just seeing the explosion of like queer self identification, oh my goodness, among these generations.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

I have a son, he saw this happen during COVID You come back from COVID and suddenly like, dad, what's going on? Why are people presenting themselves this way? Why does everyone look different? It's just the culture had been transformed.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

And, you know, we can talk a little bit about sort of the predicament of parents who went through lockdowns and they're like, I can't. How do I turn this off?

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

My kid doesn't have friends like they used to. They. These. This is the only place they can find someone. Especially, you know, during that whole sort of BLM era when, like, a lot of, you know, if you're like a young white male going through puberty, you knew that you were not welcome at the table of the culture for a while there. And the only place that you could go to sort of hang with the boys was like in Call of Duty or like on TikTok or something.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

But let's break out that. That porn piece first because it's such a big chunk of it and just the way, you know, it's. A lot of it happens behind closed doors still. But the impact on just the way people's brains are being rewired and the way that they look at their phones, their technologies of it, just so profound.

[Claire Morell]

Yes, absolutely. And so I try to explain to parents, like, pornography and social media are one in the same. Like, most kids are accidentally stumbling across this stuff for the first time on social media. So now, like, the average age of first porn exposure is 12, and it's kind of trended downward, which I believe is lined up with the average age of first smartphone, which is now 10. And it's just impossible for parents. I think they think, well, I'll put filters on the phone. I'll put these kind of content restrictions on social media, but the problem is filters. Okay, first of all, there's tons of loopholes and filters, but they often don't work on in app browsers. So, like, parents don't necessarily realize that it's not just like Safari or Google Chrome on the phone. It's that like, all these apps actually have its own in app browser. And there's been studies that show that kids can actually get to pornhub inside of Snapchat in like five clicks and that the filter can't touch that. Not only that, but it's not even just external website links they're coming across. It's actually like there is pornography itself on these social media feeds, and the filter is no power of filtering out what content is in a child's feed. And so I've tried to explain this to parents, like you think you've put these controls in place, but there's just, there's too many points of entry on these smartphones, there's hundreds of apps, there's all these in app browsers and then it's on the feeds themselves. And so, you know, studies show that like 73% of teens have now been exposed to pornography. I think the numbers are even higher because that's a study of self reporting. And I think teens are going to be maybe embarrassed to say that they've been exposed. But even of that percentage, it was like 58%, it was like were exposed accidentally. And so it's more than half, more than half of these kids are just coming across this stuff by accident. And I think parents aren't aware of that. But then again like it's preying on kids natural curiosity and their vulnerabilities. And so without meaning to, they click on a link or they look at a video and then they're quickly sucked down a rabbit hole, right? Because these social media apps have very aggressive algorithms that kind of go to like you've lingered on a post, it's just gonna send more and more and more of that kind of content into your feed. And so then quickly kids can become addicted to pornography and then they do start intentionally seeking it out and it's incredibly difficult. Then the kind of protections parents might have on devices in place just get very easily circumvented by kids who are looking for this. And we see the effect in the real world. You know, ER doctors report the rates of child on child sexual assault have skyrocketed. 11 to 12 year old boys are basically assaulte 4 to 8 year old girls. And it's because we know that kids brains have what they call these strong mirror neurons where they imitate what they're seeing. And so if they're watching violent pornography, then this is what they think is normal in human relationships. And they're actually acting this stuff out. And so it's incredibly difficult. I think parents have to realize that the nature of the Internet itself is really very pornified. Like the whole environment of social media sends a message to kids that sex is normal, everyone is doing it. And it's not just sex, but it's violent, aggressive sex. And to your point on the queer stuff, the kind of amount of this trans influencer kind of takeover of social media, but it's also pornography that they, they've shown that the porn itself has changed and it's become increasingly dehumanizing and grotesque and Taboo breaking. Because again, talking about that dopamine, you become habituated to a certain level. And so what gets you to that next level is breaking more and more societal taboo.

[James Polis]

This is the real rabbit hole problem on the Internet. It's not like conspiracy theories, it's like the pornography.

[Claire Morell]

The pornography. And that's what's, that's, it's educating our kids into a certain type of lifestyle. And what's expected then from human relationships. It's very dangerous.

[James Polis]

And you know, this has been going on for a long time. I mean, I remember like doing homework in high school and like listening to music, you know, to just like power you through. And at a certain point in the night, like, it switched over to like loveline. It's like Dr. Drew, Adam Carolla, and they're just like sitting there like answering these calls. And this is like the late 90s.

[Claire Morell]

Wow.

[James Polis]

Yeah, from, you know, 13 year olds, 14 year olds, 12 year olds sort of calling, like whispering into the phone and like, oh, you know, my boyfriend did this and like, he wants me to do that. Like my girlfriend's doing this and like, I don't know. And they're like, how old are you? You know, and it's like, where's dad? And then like, it's all. It always turns out to be like, well, you know, I saw this kind of content or, you know, my friend did, or my boyfriend did. And this is like, we're now like, this is generation after generation. This isn't just hitting because, you know, it's because kids don't know any better and they fire up a Facebook account.

[Claire Morell]

But it's changed too, because, right, like, I think, you know, in the 90s or early 2000s, there was often just one portal to the Internet in a home. Like a family computer. The computer, the computer. And like a parent could easily walk by, often in a public place. You know, they could put a filter on the browser. However, now it's like kids have literally mini computers in their pockets 24 7. It's not just one portal to the Internet, like I mentioned, these apps are all accessing the Internet through different portals and then the contents on the apps themselves. And so it's extremely difficult, again, for a parent to police. But also it just makes it incredibly easy for kids to come across this stuff at younger and younger ages and in ways that are just very secretive. It's very difficult for a parent to see what a kid is doing on a device. It's very easy to hide. It travels with them. And now studies show that Like a large proportion of kids are accessing pornography during the school day. And actually 44% it was like on a school issued device. So I think parents often feel trapped too. They're like, well, the school's mandating this kid use an iPad all day. And schools say they have a filter on it, but they're not fully affected. And so this is a problem now. Maybe it used to be reserved for in the evenings, like you were mentioning late at night kids would kind of be looking for things. Now they're not looking for it, it's traveling with them 24 7. They're accessing this stuff during the school day. And so it's become really just an overwhelming problem. And yeah, I think we need to think seriously then what does that look like to try to restrict kids access to things that we know are inherently harmful for them and their normal process of development.

[James Polis]

All right, so that's the porn chunk.

[Claire Morell]

That's the porn chunk.

[James Polis]

Let's do gaming. I mean gaming is a huge part of how right up through sometimes 40 year olds plus, but especially, you know, for kids who, who grew up with this stuff.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And this goes back to like the COVID era thing where it's like society shut down. They didn't ask for it.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And what was their outlet, what was their way of maintaining friendships, of having social experiences? It was all Internet stuff.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

And you know, if you take the porn away, even a lot of those kids though, you know, I think they're like these younger generations, they don't not particularly interested in like seeing sex scenes in movies. Like that kind of ethos has changed too. They're more interested in just kind of having like, you know, the boys hanging with the boys on the Internet or the girls hanging out with the girls and watching the makeup tutorials or like playing the first person shooters or whatever.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Polis]

And that can eat up a huge amount of time.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

Sometimes there's weirdness there. Usually the whole kind of safety, fear mongering that takes place on that issue is coming from the left where it's like, oh, you know, someone said the N word while playing Call of Duty. And this, we need to stop this. We gotta make, you know, make sure there's a hall monitor inside the video game. Where are you on this?

[Claire Morell]

It's really interesting. Okay, first thing on the left, going after the first person shooter games. I actually think the bigger issue, if you look into the most kind of like whatever egregious active shooter situations, the more common thread is actually pornography. So the kind of, you know, I worked at the Department of Justice in the last administration and talked to some US attorneys and they were like, what you have to understand about active shooter situations is this kind of incel movement online. They're like, I'm much more worried about the kind of incel lone wolf shooter situation. And it turns out I don't think this has actually been covered that much. But the 20 year old that tried to assassinate President Trump in Pennsylvania, the FBI found that the last thing he looked up on his smartphone before attempting to assassinate the president was pornography, was the last thing he looked at on his phone. And you're like, what? Like, why would he have done that? And I think again, it's because you're talking about the anx piece. Like, porn has become this kind of comfort mechanism for a lot of people. And so if he's about to take this violent act, he's like nervous, scared, whatever. He's like, I'm gonna look up porn. That's become the kind of habit formation. And so I actually think more than the kind of first person shooter, that they're certainly dangerous, you know, and I want to talk a little bit more about the gaming stuff for boys, but I will just say, like, I. To go back to the porn issue, I'm actually more concerned about the kind of pornography and what that means is it really desensitizes people to the real world and real world relations relationships, and they can get sucked down pretty dangerous rabbit holes in these kind of incel communities online. So I feel like we actually need to look at that more when we're thinking about these kind of active shooter situations. And it's not something that the left is going to cover or tell us about.

[James Polis]

Yeah. I mean, just quickly on this, you know, like the, the Nashville shooter manifesto, stuff like that.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

You see it in it sometimes it's hard not to laugh. It's like North Korea, it's like sent some troops to Russia to like participate in the fighting out there. And there are reports coming in where it's like they got their. They've got their hands on a smartphone finally and now they're like all addicted to porn.

[Claire Morell]

Oh yeah.

[James Polis]

And it just happens like that.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

Fast. And so, you know, when, when people are worried about that kind of like incel situation, you know, to me I'm like, well, wait a minute. Like involuntarily celibate. Doesn't really capture.

[Claire Morell]

No.

[James Polis]

What's going on. Yeah. Which is. This is not celibacy.

[Claire Morell]

No.

[James Polis]

And it's not Involuntary.

[Claire Morell]

No, that's right.

[James Polis]

It's like almost the complete opposite. It's not just like some, you know, guy who feels like he can't get a date so he's gonna go out and murder everyone in his school. Like, that is not an accurate picture of what's going on.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. On that point, I think I saw an article that said, like, you know, Starlink brought the Internet to this like, very remote Amazon tribe in Brazil. And then the village was like, this has destroyed our village. Now all the young men are sitting around like watching pornography. And so you're like, to your point, it can happen just like that.

[James Polis]

Right? It's destroying our villages too.

[Claire Morell]

It is. But back to the kind of the gaming thing. I think, you know, studies have shown, like social media kind of is particularly harmful for girls. They're very drawn to kind of the social comparison nature of it. And the gaming I think is, has become like a kind of easier in a lot of times for boys. And it's, you know, parents have told me, well, this is, this is how my son hangs out with his friends. This is how they communicate. You know, the games they get on their little headsets and they do these like team player games and they're messaging, like there's messaging things on these games. But, you know, I talked to this one dad and he was explaining that his son is very socially anxious. Like, he's fine sending emails, but when he had to go in to like hand in a job application to an employer, he was like petrified to like go have an in person interaction or conversation. And I asked him like, what he does in his spare time. He's like, oh, well, he just games in the basement with his friends, but, you know, that's how they socialize. And I was like, do you think there's any correlation? He's like, yeah, probably. Like he's very socially anxious because he doesn't actually interact with people in person. He doesn't even hang out with his friends in person. They're just all on the video games. And so I kind of push back. When parents are telling me, well, my son's using this to socialize, I'm like, yeah, but not really. Like, they're not hanging out in person. It's all mediated through the game. And if you think that he's not becoming addicted to it, it has similar dopamine effects to social media. Like the next level up in the game or, you know, the next kind of token or whatever unlocked. Like these things are all Very stimulating. It's also like, we haven't even talked about kind of nervous system effects, but a lot of these interactive screens, like the apps and games are over stimulating to a child's developing nervous system. They say like they kind of put a child in like fight or flight mode. But like if you're in fight or flight mode all the time, it's, it's very emotionally dysregulating. And so this one doctor, she wrote a book called Reset yout Child's Brain. And she kind of coined this term electronic screen Syndrome to capture the kind of symptoms that she was seeing in her practice of kids coming in. Extremely dysregulated tantrums, poor focus, lack of sleep, problems focusing, paying attention. You know, the parent says, I think my kid has adhd. Or they like seem to be autistic. And now in some cases they did have an underlying psychiatric disorder, but in.

[James Polis]

Others you're just blowing out your circadian rhythms and like no natural light.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, so her. So anyway, basically before even treating patients, now she has them do a four week complete digital detox. And what she found is in the kids with the underlying actual disorders, it like reduced their symptoms by like over 50%. And then in a lot of these kids, they actually didn't even have autism or adhd. The screen had completely mimicked these same symptoms and just taking it away just reduced their symptoms entirely. And so I think when you talk about video games, yes, there's ways to say, well, it's different than social media or the smartphone, but in a lot of ways it's very similar. The kind of effects it's inducing on a kid's nervous system and their brain.

[James Polis]

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[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And males perhaps more so than. Although, you know, women can be very sort of psychologically competitive. But guys want to win. You know, they want to win the prize. And what we see on the Internet and with the gaming is like the, there's no upper bound to the amount of competitiveness and reward cycle that you participate in.

[Claire Morell]

You can always keep.

[James Polis]

So, you know, if you're good enough to compete at, you know, whatever sort of your, your, your, your massive online game is of choice, there's a pipeline that can take you all the way up now to like the World World Series of Gaming.

[Claire Morell]

Oh, that's right. It's a. Right.

[James Polis]

And so on the one hand, like, that's, you know, any guy is sort of like, that's cool, you know, but on the other hand, like, in order to get to that point, you have to be grinding as hard on this stuff as like an Olympic athlete or someone who's like, you know, In a Division 1 college, you have to be waking up early, you have to be going to bed late. You have to be like, you know, either surrendering your, your real life or trying to juggle everything. And that's a, that is a sustained bodily and physiological strain.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And when you've got a world where that kind of, that, you know, sort of pro league exists, it can be tough to endure, especially if you don't have like some kind of adult coach, like sort of, you know, I mean, you can go crazy trying to become like a top water polo player. You can really become crazy trying to, trying to compete with the entire world at your favorite video game.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

But then there's this other angle, which is gambling. And this is, you know, I mean, just sort of barstool conservatives. I mean, this is, this is a really hot topic right now on the Right. Because some of these guys are like, no, this is just normal Americans now. And other guys are like, no, you're throwing your life away on like weed and online gambling. And this is not masculine. Yeah. And so when that stuff is hitting, you know, mostly guys. Yeah. When they're young, even just the gambling side of it. And there's been a little bit done on taking the loot boxes out of like, Fortnite or whatever, it's calmed down a little bit. But there are now. I mean, online gambling is becoming more and more legal.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

Whether it's sports or esports or everything else. And I think that's like a whole, you know, it's not pornography, but in some ways it's just very addictive.

[Claire Morell]

I mean, like, the slot sheens are like, inherently addictive. And so I think actually Big Tech has borrowed a lot of trade secrets from gambling in terms of making its products addictive. And they say it's because with gambling and kind of the online social media realm that what actually makes something most addictive is the uncertainty of reward. That if you actually know you get a reward every time, it doesn't become as addictive. But what keeps you going back is the like, will I win or not?

[James Polis]

Yeah, it's that mix of anxiety and satisfaction.

[Claire Morell]

Exactly. And so, and same with social media. Like, did I get a like or a follower or not? And that uncertainty is like, makes it incredibly addictive. I just want to touch on something that you said that just reminded me that I think what we have to understand about, okay, video games becoming a sport versus, like, you know, guys are naturally competitive in the real world is there's certain things that the digital technology is kind of trying to replace, but it's not actually a complete substitute for what a real world sport would do. So like, when you exercise, it releases endorphins and it's like, you're not getting that. And that, like, provides like this sense of satisfaction. The dopamine, like I was trying to say, it just, it never produces that, like, there's no kind of like, satisfaction or fulfillment. You just like always want more and you're just kind of on this endless hamster wheel. And so I think, like, you know, guys are naturally drawn to competition and, you know, they're made for kind of war. And video games is just kind of fake war. And it's not, it's not real. And so there's no kind of satisfaction for now. But the same is true of porn. Like, there's this connection, right. And that's because porn is kind of fake love. Like, humans are designed, we're wired for love, but porn is fake love. And it's also like, even like a lesser degree than porn is also just social media. Like, we're craving this kind of constant connection. And we've been told, you know, this is how friendships are now mediated, but they're all just built on these kind of shallow metrics. Oh, who liked your post? Or who followed you?

[James Polis]

It's a simulation.

[Claire Morell]

It's a simulation. And there's been recent studies that show, like, you don't get oxytocin through a screen. And even zoom calls, like people get zoom fatigue. And it's because even through the screen, you're not getting oxytocin, which is this hormone that actually bonds humans together. It forms our relationships of trust, love, responsibility. And so it bonds husband and wife, it bonds mother and child bonds.

[James Polis]

So you're getting the dopamine and no oxytocin.

[Claire Morell]

Dopamine, no oxytocin. So I like.

[James Polis]

It seems like a very deeply broken combination.

[Claire Morell]

It's very deeply broken. So you become addicted to the dopamine and you become deprived of oxytocin. And so. So the irony is these platforms are called social, and they were meant to make us feel more connected than ever, but kids actually just feel lonely and depressed and anxious because they don't have these real life friendships. They're not forming real bonds with other humans. They're not experiencing that. Oxytocin, which is one of the. It's the happiness hormone. Like, oxytocin makes us happy, and there's a sense of kind of happiness, friendship and joy, and we're not getting that on the online world. And the kids kind of keep going back for more and more and more on social media, but it's never going to provide that because it's just a substitute for the real thing, and it's not like a complete substitute. So, anyway, I just wanted to circle back on what you were saying about the kind of video games and competition is that these things, they're not equivalents to the real world, and they're depriving us actually of the things that we really need to truly be happy as humans.

[James Polis]

Yeah, well, you know, so Donald Trump is back. This seems like a sort of hard pivot, but I think in some ways it's really not. Because, I mean, you know, there's been controversy for a while now about sort of evangelical and trads who are like, Trump is not our guy. He's, you know, sort of like, like, the morals are not there and we're not gonna vote and the abortion thing and like, all that stuff. And. And that's kind of, you know, that maybe deserves a show of its own or not. My point of interest here to this is Trump's return.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

With just so powerfully and kind of everything. Red shifting. And now we're back sort of in a kind of purple America.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

Which is very interesting because People thought you. You'd have to go sort of to blue America to get the purple, but actually we're getting this through red. And what this means for, you know, like, zoomers and Alphas and like those younger generations when they kind of hit that Covid wall and they came back and it was like, wow, now society, like, low key hates me. There's no place for, like, a normal American, like, heterosexual person, especially for the guys. Suddenly you drop to the bottom of the social status totem pole. On tv, in class, in front of your teachers, everywhere you look. I think that was a huge driver of these young guys being like, you know what? You can find me on the Internet, like, wake me up if and when it's okay to be normal again.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Polis]

And not until maybe now has there been. And I think it's right when people are anecdotally saying, like, oh, can feel this sort of sense of relief, and people's anxiety levels seem to come down, and you can walk around with the red hat on and people are going to attack you. There's just suddenly this, like, huge, like, okay, like, maybe it can be normal to be normal again.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, that's right.

[James Polis]

And so what I'm wondering is, and of course, these are early days, but have. Have you seen indications that a lot of this kind of, like, whether it's from the parents standpoint or the kids standpoint point, that kind of, like, fatalism of like, well, I guess this is the only place I can be myself? Do you think that a lot of that kind of addictive behavior and a lot of that sort of like, well, maybe it's terrible for us, but, you know, so are Fritos, and they're everywhere. So I'm not just gonna stop eating Fritos.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, right.

[James Polis]

Do you think that, like, a lot of. Of the willingness to go in the wrong direction has come from that feeling of sort of, like, being desperation, being sort of banished from. From society? And do you think that that's. That is maybe gonna, like, more people are gonna feel more comfortable being themselves and. And being sort of pro normal out in public?

[Claire Morell]

Oh, I do. I do. I think it's gonna be. I definitely think that people are gonna feel more comfortable to be pro normal and to. And to say, like, yeah, I don't think this stuff is good for our kids. Like, they don't need to be on it. I think we are kind of starting to see that backlash, like, come around where I think. And I think people are excited. I think they're excited that America is going to really flourish again. And they're. And I think it's actually going to. I'm hopeful it's going to really lead to a return of people really engaging in their local communities. I think that's something that tech has kind of taken away from us, is that it's very disembodied by nature, and the tech companies are very global by nature. They're not really American companies, and they're not necessarily trying to help people form relationships within their kind of geographic boundaries, within their families. It's kind of. Tech has kind of come between parent and child. It's come between neighbors. And so I'm hopeful that people are very reinvigorated, I think, by Trump, and, like, they realize that he loves this country and he will do whatever it takes to make this country great again. I think that means we're gonna see more engagement of people in their local neighborhoods, their communities, and they're excited to be normal. And I do hope that that leads to kind of less reliance on tech and, like, really moving away. Like. Like, maybe they felt like they had to kind of retreat to the online spaces to find those types of connections, But I'm hopeful that they'll be actually able to find that through their schools, their churches, their communities, that it will lead to a return, more to an emphasis on our local communities and what we can do to make this country great. Right. Where we live. You know, focusing on our schools, our neighborhoods, our churches. Yeah. And just an ability and a fear. Yeah. Kind of a lack of a fear. To be proud to be an American and to be excited about the future of the country. I also just want to say something on those kind of, like. I think you were talking about the young men feeling like the only place that they could really, like, be themselves was retreating to the kind of online world. Ironically, I think the. Or not ironically, but the Democrats realized that they were losing young men, like, they were losing this demographic of voters. And so I don't know if you've followed any of this, but there are actually two super PACs that then poured a ton of money into advertisements in battleground states to try to scare young men that they would lose their porn if Trump became president, Right? Yes. So they're like. They were running off, like, hands off my porn. Like, Trump's gonna take away porn. Trying to, like. I mean, it's just. It's so, like. I don't even know, like, just messed up that the Democrats would be becoming the party that's, like, promoting pornography to young Men to say, like, hey, stick with us. Like, don't leave for Trump because. Because we won't touch your porn. And he will.

[James Polis]

Yeah, this is the new normal. This is just the normal way that you have a sexual experience in your life.

[Claire Morell]

Yes. So anyway, so it just. It feels very validating for me that the young men didn't, like, fall for this ploy and that they came out and, like, voted for Trump, despite the fact that Democrats thought that the way to kind of protect that voter base was to threaten pornography, which I think, again, just speaks to the nature of this being such an addictive thing that people are drawn to.

[James Polis]

But anyway, as of now, it looks like the Trump position, the official Trump position, is really, really beef up the protections for kids.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

And then when you get to 18, yeah, it's yours. It's your problem figured out.

[Claire Morell]

I think you think that's where things.

[James Polis]

Are going to land.

[Claire Morell]

I mean, and I think that's the right approach is, like, I don't think as a country, we're necessarily ready to go after this for adults. And I think it is like, you got to start with kids. And that's what I was saying. Like, this is the age where they're forming their habits. Their brains are still developing. And I think we've always recognized that kids don't have, like, an absolute right to speech, like, over and above their parents. That we've always recognized, like, parents are protect. Or their job is to kind of protect their children and protects children's access to certain kinds of speech. And we've recognized obscenity and pornography are harmful to children. The government has a compelling interest in protecting them from it. So I think. I think focusing on that and starting there, like, how can we shield childhood from the influence of this harmful content is the right approach. And so I think it's important to realize that we can both have free speech and protect childhood, that these things don't actually have to be in opposition, that we can hold both together, and that there are constitutional solutions to be able to protect kids from harmful pornography. So I do think that's the right approach, is like, we have to start with the kids, and that will affect the adults, because if we're protecting childhood from it, we actually give them a chance to be a flourishing adult.

[James Polis]

Yeah, yeah. I think that's probably where things are gonna shake out to you, and I am hopeful. The interesting twist here, though, of course, is Trump is back because of Tech and Elon.

[Claire Morell]

Oh, yeah, right.

[James Polis]

Like, these are the guys who mustered up the courage to buy the dip or whatever, and now it's paying off for them. At the same time, though, I think there are a lot of conservatives out there who do not really understand how easily they can be replaced by the tech guys.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[James Polis]

You know, these kind of old school, sort of establishment, you know, moral majority style conservatives who got pretty comfortable in their think tanks and with their, you know, relationships with Congress critters or whatever, and they think that they're just going to continue to kind to have control over the values section of the Republican coalition. And I think they're in for a rude awakening.

[Claire Morell]

Definitely an awakening. Yeah. And I think it's interesting, right, because I think people are like, oh, so is Trump gonna take on section 230 the same way he did in his first administration because of Elon's influence? And I think it kind of remains to be seen. I do think that Trump and Elon are both very much for free free speech. And I think trying to protect free speech on these platforms I do think will still be a priority of the administration. Now, like, how exactly that shakes out. Like, I don't think Elon necessarily needs to be concerned because I think he's already made Twitter or X a very free speech place. And he actually might be in favor of some section 230 reforms if it means it's going to hold his competitors more accountable for making sure that their platforms are free of censorship. So I think it's kind of interesting, like, he's definitely going to have an influence, but we're not necessarily concerned about the free speech on X anymore. But I think that both Elon and Trump, I think, can recognize that we don't want free speech to be dependent on who's running a platform. And so that it's better for America if we can ensure free speech across all these platforms. And that might even be good for Elon because it might mean his competitors actually then are going to face more kind of constraints, restraints than they have. But I do think, and I think, you know, Elon has said, like, he wants, he wanted to try to protect, you know, keep X clean of child exploitation. Like you said, that was a priority. You know, people have criticized him for not actually like backing that up. But I do think that, you know, you see this on the kind of trans issue that I do think that there can be agreement even with these kind of new tech influences, that we should at least protect childhood from the kind of harmful content that could circulate on these platforms. And so I'm hopeful, personally that, like, if we can focus on protecting kids and we can focus on free speech, that that's kind of, that's the kind of path forward on tech. And I do think those are both priorities of Trump that he has voiced.

[James Polis]

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it is so easy to just beat up on the tech guys for leaving this sort of trail of destruction through society or whatever.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And this is, you know, the left has a version of this too. I mean, what is wokeness if not an effort to sort of throw together a sort of new religion so that there can be spiritual controls on how technology is used? They want to control those technologies and they want to tell everyone, like priests, this is the right way to do it, this is the wrong way to do it. This is bad for you spiritually, this.

[Claire Morell]

Is good for you spiritually. And they want to indoctrinate kids. They're coming between parents and their children. And so this is actually. So I know people talk about the convergence on the right and the left of protecting kids online, and they're certainly bipartisan efforts, like they recognize it's harmful, but there's still really a fundamental difference, which is that on the right, we do think that parents are the ultimate authority over kids access to speech. The left will not accept that. They think that we actually need to protect kids right to privacy. And so even in these reforms, like the right really wants to put parents in the driver's seat. Okay, let's, you know, have parental consent for social media or make sure parents have access to kids kind of channels of communication. Well, the left isn't comfortable with that. They want to make sure we ensure kids rights to privacy because this is how LGBTQ youth will find this information online.

[James Polis]

It's really tough to shield them from that to convert children to the woke religion if the parents are in the picture.

[Claire Morell]

If the parents are in the picture. And so they actually want to cut parents out. And so I think, you know, even in looking at some of the convergence, there's still some fundamentally underlying differences where even in quote unquote, protecting kids from this, you know, harms of social media, the left actually just wants to empower kids more. Oh, they're their online experience, not parents. In fact, they want kind of kids to be empowered. Oh, they're their parents, because parents are actually the ones standing between them and the access they need to sexual information and discovering their true identity online.

[James Polis]

And so, you know, on the right, the sort of right wing version of the tech criticism is, you know, these guys are nefarious they're doing it on purpose. They want to addict you. They want to, you know, they want to steal your kids away to turn them into little cyborgs.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And I understand all that, and there's some evidence for that, that. But, you know, I do want to, like, be a little bit more, more generous to the tech guys and, and to have, you know, a steel man and not a straw man. And I think what they would say is, like, we're free to be engineers in this country.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[James Polis]

And to you, it might look like we're just moving from one shiny object to the next without regard to the consequences, but to us, we're just doing what engineering is. We come up with stuff, we build the stuff, we see how it works. We, we, we improve it or abandon it or whatever. And that might seem chaotic and dangerous to you, but that's just our freedom to engineer. And so if we make stuff, which is free to do in this country, and then you get a hold of it and use it to hurt yourself, like, gosh, you know, are we really at fault? And I don't know if there's ever going to be, like, a stable sort of consensus on that issue. If the spiritual chunk is left out, okay. Because, yes, you know, the ordinary person who abuses technology, it is their fault. But if they're spiritually deprived and they don't have any kind of, like, healthy religious life, then that needs attention, you know, and the same thing goes with the engineers. If they're crazy, if they're just doing engineering in a free society, and yet it seems like, well, for some reason, like, there keep being these, like, adverse social consequences. Yeah, maybe it's like the, partly the responsibility of the user part, but it's also partly spiritually the responsibility of the producer. And so, you know, I'm trying to have this conversation about, like, you know, guys, you want to do engineering, you want to be free to do it. This is what America is about. Yes, but you don't want the woke religion to be in charge, and then you don't want the angry mob to burn your house down because of what. How they're just falling prey to what it is that you created. Christianity's right here.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Polis]

You know, like, second look at Christianity, please. This is just to create that space where people can start having a thoughtful and productive conversation about, you know, okay, fine, technology is good. This is America, capitalist society. But look at the path. Like, who is making these choices about which direction to push research and development in? Is it the military? Industrial complex.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

Is it people who just want to get rich? Is it people who want to, you know, antichrist mode, just full post humanism, turn into angels? What is it? You can have many different kinds of technological acceleration. You can have many different kinds of smartphone experiences. People could use those smartphones to protect their way of life, to strengthen our form of government, you know, to strengthen our, our humanity instead of degrading all those things.

[Claire Morell]

No, I was just gonna say it's like, what's the end goal? Is it human flourishing? Is it the common good? Yeah. Is it the human soul, human dignity? You know, these goods that we know are ultimate? Or is it this kind of like self transcendence, like disembodied experience, like, like live in the metaverse, don't be grounded in reality. Like you can transcend yourself and you can be limitless and infinite. When we know, like Christianity tells us we're not infinite, we're finite beings.

[James Polis]

Yeah, that's Gnosticism. I mean, that's not the future. It's been around for thousands of years.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah. And I think what I try to push back on sometimes, you know, I get a lot of opposition in some of my policy work from libertarians and even really kind of free market fundamentalist conservatives that say, well, you know, hands off the free market. But I think we have to realize, like the free market efficient result is not always what's best, best for human flourishing. And that often individual liberty and the free market are the best kind of means to achieving these ultimate goods. What we know is going to be best for humanity and the common good, but those things in themselves aren't ultimate. And so that there actually are times where we intervene in the free market when we recognize something's actually harmful to human beings. And so I think what's been interesting about the tech space is that there hasn't been this kind of curbing of consumer protection like most other industries. You can bring lawsuits when these products are actually harming its consumers. Well, tech has really evaded any type of litigation or responsibility because of section 230. And honestly, it's been section 230's over expansion by the courts beyond what its original meaning was supposed to be. So these tech companies have been essentially immunized even for their own wrongdoing, their own product design, because they've said, ah, we can't be held responsible for third party content. But it's like, but it's your aggressive algorithm that you wrote and designed or your product features that are harming Kids and harming humanity. These things aren't good for the human brain and the human soul. And so I think it's a very interesting kind of case study to look at. And there's just, there's plenty of examples where we'd recognize like this is actually a predatory industry, it's addicting its consumers. These things are actually harmful for human well being and flourishing. And so we don't just leave it up to the free market and we don't just leave it up to parents. And so that's always my pushback is like, you know, parents are on the front lines, they're doing the best they can, but there's actually kind of a collective nature to some of these harms. Like social media has changed the entire social environment for kids. Even the kids that get opted out can be affected by it. And it's actually empowering of parents. When you age restrict something out of childhood entirely, then it's not on each individual parent to fight that battle. Like, we don't leave it up to parents to just like have to fight, you know, keeping their kid from drinking or smoking. Things that we recognize are harmful for kids, we just age restricted them. And I think technology is kind of another. Yeah, it's an interesting lens to consider. We've often recognized there's certain technologies that are just too powerful to be wielded by a child. Like even just like think about cars or guns. We haven't just said, oh, we'll just leave it up to the parent to regulate that. We're like, actually the problem is like a parent could teach their kid how to drive or use a gun responsibly, but if other kids are not good drivers or are not wielding these things properly, then people will get hurt. And there is that kind of collective aspect to some of these digital technologies as well. And I think so. I do think like, you know, conservatives, we have principles to help us guide our understanding of how to think about tech. And it doesn't mean that we can't let them innovate, but that there are sometimes necessary guardrails in place, particularly when the product is actually harming its consumer. And I think we must, we have to care most about when it's harming children who are kind of the most vulnerable among us.

[James Polis]

Yeah, I mean, it's always nuts to me when, you know, a libertarian basically says like, oh, religion is false, that's why I worship the market. Or you know, technologists are like, oh, this is clearly nonsense, that's why I'm building a God. And it's like, bro, okay, so, you know, if. If it all ends up being some kind of worship or another, Right. Then we have this opportunity to have a conversation. We're like, all right, then let's actually think with some wisdom and discernment about which religion we want. We're turning to.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

For eternal guidance on basic questions about how to live. Because, yes, like, digital did change everything or whatever, but at the same time, it didn't actually change anything. We are still human beings.

[Claire Morell]

We're still human beings.

[James Polis]

And every time there's a new technology, people start thinking that, you know, oh, the world is a book because the printing press was invented. Or, oh, the world is a TV or a movie because, like, that's the most powerful technology. And now it's the computer. So, oh, obviously, we're all living in a simul. Like, it's just so easy for people to be deluded and to be diluted in that way.

[Claire Morell]

That's absolutely right.

[James Polis]

And we have, you know, 2,000 years of church tradition that says regardless of what time it is, regardless of who you are, you are going to be exposed to these temptations and the. The flesh is going to be weak, even if the spirit is willing.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

And here's how to deal with that. Regardless of the technology and what direction it's pointing in. Because these things are true in all places, at all times, forever.

[Claire Morell]

Yes. And I've tried to explain this appearance, too. Like, listen, the environment of these digital technologies and social media platforms are habituating kids toward vice rather than virtue. Like, the things that they're being promoted. The message that the medium is sending. Like, the medium is the message, you know, the Marshall McLuhan quote, that it's not just about what kind of content they're taking in. It's the entire message the platform is sending, which is inherently just that you're meant to be a mindless consumer of entertainment. Like, that is what life is for. And I think, yeah, Christians, like, we have the answers. We know what human life is for. We know what childhood it is supposed to be for. And so we can actually most clearly see then when these technologies are not lining up with what we know the purpose of human life is for, and it's not for endless consumption or transcending ourselves, but it's living within the limits that God has given us, like, created us as human beings, and that we're actually meant to know and love God and know and love others, and that life is actually, essentially, it's about Self giving and learning to serve and love other people. But the technology is really indoctrinating kids in the opposite direction. It's just saying that the tech exists to serve you and that all life is for is just entertainment and consumption. And so we're kind of wiring kids to become mindless consumers instead of giving them the tools to be people who actually contribute and are meaningful producers and contributors to our society. And kind of just going back to the free market. Like a free market can't be truly free if it's, if its users are not free. And I think when you again consider the kind of nature that the technology is actually making people addicts, like would we say a heroin addict is really a free, rational person making these decisions for themselves, what they think is best for their welfare. Because I think libertarians are like, well, let's just let individuals maximize their welfare, however best, and just let the free market do its thing. And I think it's, you have to kind of recognize that that doesn't work. That really breaks down when people are not really free to choose what's best for them because they've become addicted to something that is leading kind of to inherent harm to the community.

[James Polis]

And you know, so I understand the backlash that's coming from some of our Christian guys who are like, and that's why we need a good old fashioned Christian theocracy, Christian magistrate, go full Cromwell, you know, like, this is the only way. And you know, that's not my jam either. It's not just because of the Constitution. It's because, you know, we, we know that if the church gets too close to the state.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

They both end up kind of discrediting each other. And that's like worst of both worlds.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[James Polis]

So, you know, when you're talking about, well, it might just have to be some. Start with the kids, start with the constant solutions. Just like let people have a spiritual renaissance before you start thinking about, you know, conquering the government and you know, hoisting the.

[Claire Morell]

Oh, that's right.

[James Polis]

Across. You know, that might not be as sort of deeply thrilling to like the, the guy who feels like this is finally his chance. But you know, we do have to work with the society that we are living in and we have to have at least a little patience. I know there's a lot of pressure. Change, change, change. We're all in trouble. The birthday is crashing, everyone's going, yes, but. And we also have to have that kind of patience and that willingness to suffer along with people in order to get back on the right.

[Claire Morell]

Absolutely. And I think we recognize like America, we've like we've been founded on like you know, freedom of speech, freedom of religion. Like we've recognized that, you know, a state run religion isn't good actually for what people like we need to let people be able to freely pursue their faith and exercise it, you know, in the ways that they, that is their tradition. And so I think we don't need like a theocratic kind of state, but we do need to protect religious freedom, religious liberty and recognizing and I think, think that's what I was trying to say about the kind of free market kind of liberty is the ultimate good that the kind of libertarians push is we recognize actually like liberty, religious freedom, like these are the means to the end, which is human flourishing. And so we want to protect the means. But when the kind of individual liberty becomes ultimate, that I think is when we get into dangerous territory. And so I think we absolutely want to protect liberty and then recognize there are times like that's why we have a government to help us protect liberty and also help us ultimately protect what we know is best for human flourishing and the common good. And so I think you can have individual liberty and also recognize when it's necessary for the government to step in and protect the kind of free market efficient result when it's actually harming what we know are those ultimate goods of human dignity and the common good. And so I think we can have both, both together. And it's not like one or the other, it's not oh liberty or like government intervention, it's you can have both. And there's constitutional ways to protect kids online and protect childhood. And I do think it's important to think about like the children are really the future of our self governing republic. And you know, John Adams said like we kind of, we can't have this democratic republic if we don't have a virtuous people. Like a virtuous people is what's necessary to keep this government going. And we recognize the tech as habituating kids to vice instead of virtue and caving them in on themselves as addicts instead of turning them outwards to be producers and contributors to our economy and our domestic industry and learning. It's undermining self control and self mastery which is you need a self governing people to have a self governing republic. And so I think that's, we have to keep that in mind when we're thinking about how do we treat technology and what public policy solutions are needed Amen.

[James Polis]

Claire Morel. The book is the Tech Exit. Thanks so much for joining us.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks for having me, James.

[James Polis]

All right, that's all the time we got. Until next time around. I'm James Polis. This is Zero Hour, and may God have mercy.