Book vs. Movie: The Odyssey

Summary

Zero to Well-Read — Book vs. Movie: The Odyssey

Podcast: Zero to Well-Read (Book Riot)
Hosts: Jeff O’Neill & Rebecca Schinsky
Guest: Vanessa Diaz (Book Riot Managing Editor)
Episode Date: July 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Christopher Nolan’s epic film adaptation of Homer’s The Odyssey, focusing on the art and challenge of translating one of the foundational works of Western literature to the big screen. Drawing on their collective bookworm and movie-fan credentials, Jeff, Rebecca, and Vanessa juxtapose the ancient poem with Nolan’s visually extravagant, star-studded film. They break down what’s familiar, what’s boldly new, what works, and what raises questions—in both the text and on the screen. The discussion covers major thematic shifts, standout performances, cinematic craftsmanship, and the philosophical, literary, and cultural stakes of this adaptation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Orientation: Book, Movie, and Approaching Adaptation

• Not a straight review of either: The episode is not a deep-dive on The Odyssey nor simply a movie review, but an exploration of what the adaptation gains, changes, and transmits for new audiences ([03:32]).
• Why adapt The Odyssey?
  Jeff: “This is one of the most significant works in the Western literary canon … and that's important to say about all of this as far as we understand.” ([12:44])
• Adaptation as translation: The hosts stress the impossibility of a “pure” adaptation, given the differences between ancient oral poetry and visual storytelling.

Recap: The Odyssey & Its Enduring Weirdness

• Plot essentials: Odysseus is delayed 20 years returning home after war, faces monsters and temptations, while his wife Penelope fends off suitors and his son Telemachus searches for him ([03:32]).
• Why it matters: The Odyssey is not just adventure, but a tapestry of myth, history, and ethics—a window into an “alien” but resonant vision of the world ([15:51]).
• Strangeness and appeal: The hosts emphasize the work’s genre-defying weirdness—lack of interiority, gods meddling with humans, hospitality (xenia), and its deep roots in both history and myth ([17:51]).

Rebecca ([15:51]):
“The whole thing does just defy modern reading expectations. Like, there's not a lot of character psychology... It's really strange. There's all these monsters and the gods show up and the gods have ideas and motivations of their own … you just have to sort of go for the ride rather than bringing modern expectations to the story.”

What Did We Bring Into the Adaptation?

• Personal relationships to the text:
  • Rebecca: Re-read for the podcast, admires Emily Wilson’s accessible translation ([10:41], [03:32]).
  • Vanessa: “Myth nerd,” has read it several times, sparked her interest in mythology ([11:23]).
  • Jeff: Found meaning teaching it, prefers the Iliad, but respects The Odyssey as foundational.
• The challenge: Adapting something so familiar it risks seeming “strange, but familiar”—an “essential strangeness” that can be erased ([12:44]).

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The Film: Anticipation, Vision, and Production

Anticipation & Hype

• All in on Nolan: All three were “so juiced” (excited) for Nolan’s version. Discussions ranged from the boldness of tackling such a big story to curiosity about practical effects, casting, and how the movie would handle myth ([22:16], [23:01]).
• Casting: Starring Matt Damon, Tom Holland, Zendaya, Anne Hathaway, Lupita Nyong’o, Charlize Theron, Pattinson, John Bernthal, Hamish Patel, and others ([23:01], [24:45]).
• Cinematic spectacle: First movie shot entirely in IMAX, known for massive, noisy cameras, largely practical effects, and a commitment to location authenticity ([24:45]).

Production Choices & Modernization

• No gods on screen:
  Vanessa ([34:29]): “That we never actually saw gods on screen… was a really nice like piece of commentary that I like wrote down … no gods exclamation point.”
• Accent debate: American regional accents instead of defaulting to “generic McBritish”; stripped away “pretension,” making the dialogue more direct ([35:22], [36:28]).
• Immersive visuals and effects:
  • Standout set pieces: Trojan Horse, Cyclops, Circe, Charybdis, and Hades, all achieved with practical effects, giant puppets, and real actors doing physically demanding work ([38:20], [57:03]).
  • Production design: Emphasis on realism, from the grime of the horse to the “texture” of characters’ faces and clothes—no “overly polished” leads ([53:21]).

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Thematic & Narrative Adaptation Choices

Framing and Structure

• Flashbacks within flashbacks: Nolan mimics the poem’s nonlinear structure, using Calypso (Charlize Theron) as a device for Odysseus’ (Matt Damon) memory recovery, contrasting the poem’s “telling my story to the Phaeacians” mode ([44:05], [55:56]).
• Moral overlay:
  Rebecca ([62:21]): “Nolan writes in a moral to this story. That is that in this act of committing war… Odysseus and his men have broken the world.”
  • War becomes a wound to both society and self—Nolan’s Odysseus is haunted by guilt, trauma, and the collapse of the old “Zeus’s Law” of hospitality.
  • The film’s “editorializing” connects ancient violence to modern global politics and the fallout of American imperial ambition ([63:54]).
• Ending changes: The poem ends with Odysseus as king; the film sends Odysseus and Penelope “into the west,” having passed the kingdom to Telemachus, to atone and honor the dead ([63:54], [85:06]).

Character Development

• Odysseus: Rendered deeply human—traumatized, regretful, but clever. Less the “swaggering superhero,” more a figure wrestling with guilt and responsibility ([46:03]).
• Penelope: Gains agency, openly strategizes and resists—Anne Hathaway’s performance praised for rage, weariness, and sharpness ([52:23], [53:22]).
• Telemachus: Tom Holland fine but overshadowed, character intentionally passive and uncertain ([79:10]).
• The gods: Manifest only indirectly—Athena appears subtly (Zendaya), but never in full mythic spectacle ([34:29], [77:36]).
• Diverse, modern casting: Ithacans and soldiers are multi-ethnic, broadening the “human” scope of the myth ([61:42]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On adaptation’s inherent subjectivity:
  Jeff ([12:44]): “When something is so familiar, its essential strangeness can be sort of glossed over.”
• On the poem’s breadth:
  Rebecca ([15:51]): “The Odyssey has history, it has religion, it has ethics, it has anthropology and sociology and metaphysical stuff… The whole thing is intended as entertainment.”
• On Nolan’s directorial analogy:
  Jeff ([39:27]): “I don’t know what we’re gonna do. We're gonna figure it out. Is like Christopher Nolan as Odysseus, right? Smart, capable, a craftsperson…”
• On Circe’s transformation scene:
  Rebecca ([67:29]): “The physicality of her, like, molding their heads, it looked like molding clay… I really felt my heart just stop. It was incredible.”
• On the soundtrack:
  Vanessa ([79:50]): “The fact that he chose to go with a completely non orchestral approach… they reconstructed what they think they would have sounded like. And you could literally feel [the music].”
• On the movie’s cultural impact:
  Rebecca ([31:47]): “There were people in line… talking about how they’d never read it and this was gonna be the first time they were seeing a movie in a packed theater. … It’s good for movies and it’s good for books.”
• On moralizing war and “Zeus’s Law”:
  Jeff ([63:54]): “Zeus's Law. I don't know. They'll tell you 40 times. This was somehow a breaking of the world… you have crossed some line that you can't go back from.”
• On modernizing gender representation:
  Vanessa ([51:17]): “It was really nice to see a wife with some agency and concern and, like, the warmth, I guess, of their particular dynamic was, I thought, really lovely to see on scene.”

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Key Timestamps for Essential Segments

| Timestamps | Segment | |----------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:32 | Rebecca gives a lively, clear plot summary of The Odyssey | | 11:23 | Vanessa details her personal myth nerd history; hosts share their experiences with the poem | | 17:51 | Discussion of the text's genre-blurring weirdness and implications for adaptation | | 22:16 | Anticipation for Nolan’s adaptation: casting, practical effects, IMAX production | | 27:17 | Initial reactions: “Cinema!” “Art!” Crowd energy and sense of cinematic spectacle | | 34:29 | Vanessa: “No gods on screen,” and the implications for myth and religion | | 39:27–41:55 | Craft, visual realism, and the Trojan Horse, blending magic and grit | | 44:05 | On the shift from poem’s story-framing to film’s Calypso “memory loss” device | | 46:03 | Odysseus as a human hero vs swaggering mythic figure | | 52:23–54:48 | Expanded, nuanced Penelope (Anne Hathaway) — “anger crying,” realism, agency, makeup-free faces, & the symbolic use of screens in Ithaca scenes | | 57:03 | Locations, practical effects, Cyclops puppetry, and creating immersive transport | | 62:21–63:54 | Discussion of the film’s new moral—war breaks the world, what it means for Odysseus | | 79:10 | Tom Holland as Telemachus—an intentionally passive character in a stacked cast | | 79:50 | Vanessa on Ludwig Göransson’s striking, period-inspired soundtrack | | 81:48 | “The thing you most want is a thing you’ve lost and can’t get back again…” — Odysseus on nostalgia | | 84:05 | Penelope’s cleverness, agency, and emotional payoff in the final reunion | | 85:06 | The new ending: Odysseus and Penelope sail west, passing kingdom to Telemachus |

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What Worked & What Didn’t

Standout Choices & Performances

• Best moments cited: The inside-the-horse set piece, Circe’s transformative scene, practical monster effects, immersive score, and Hathaway’s powerful performance as Penelope ([37:02], [67:29], [79:50], [53:22]).
• Pattinson as Antinous: “I hated him. And that was great.” ([75:53])
• Hathaway’s agency and emotional realism: Multiple mentions.

Critiques & Quibbles

• Overt “Zeus’s Law”/moralizing: Some found the constant exposition on hospitality and war a bit heavy-handed ([63:54], [84:40]).
• Loss of some mythic ambiguity: Making Odysseus less morally ambiguous; cleaning up the messy, non-monogamous original for modern sensibilities ([66:52]).
• Gender equity: Improvements but not a full fix; more screen time for women wanted, especially Lupita Nyong’o’s double-casting as Helen/Clytemnestra underused ([71:47]).
• **Some early pacing issues; Lystragonians as filler; handwaving over trade as cause of war ([68:17], [70:05]).

Audience Impact

• Movie is a roaring success with viewers and critics alike; seen as a boost for both books and movies ([31:47], [33:08]).
• Brings discussion of classics to the mainstream and new generations ([31:47], [82:45]).

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Notable Quotes

Jeff ([27:32]):
“When I walked out, I was like, cinema! … It was the visual treat. … If you come to this with no knowledge, which I think is really hard to do, but even if you did, it's just a moviegoing experience of the kind that just is always going to excite me.”

Rebecca ([38:06], on practical effects):
“The scene of Hades was shot, like, on the black beaches of Iceland. And it's really scary and mythical. They buried all the actors… The Cyclops picking up these men and eating their heads… it looks great.”

Vanessa ([79:50]):
“The fact that [Ludwig Göransson] chose to go with a completely non-orchestral approach … they reconstructed what they think they would have sounded like. And so you get these big swells of drums… you could literally feel it.”

Rebecca ([52:51]):
“Right. It's not saccharine. I think the lighting and how much they're outside, especially at the beginning, really was a part of that, especially for me, with Penelope. … Like, you can see the texture of Anne Hathaway's skin. … It’s believable.”

Jeff ([46:03], on Odysseus’s modernity):
“This is realistic to me. It's not the swaggering superhero that you might expect from those descriptions. … He is world weary, but his heart's in the right place.”

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Takeaways & Final Thoughts

• The Odyssey as myth and mirror: Nolan’s film successfully brings the poem’s “essential strangeness” and enduring concerns—war, return, hubris, loss—into visual and emotional immediacy for modern audiences.
• Modernization with respect: The adaptation makes changes, especially to character psychology and narrative closure, that suit contemporary tastes but at the cost (sometimes) of mythic ambiguity.
• Spectacle, craft, and heart: It’s lauded for its spectacle and the humanity it brings to the myth—with praised performances, especially from Damon and Hathaway, and a powerful, non-Western score.
• A victory for both books and movies: The hosts agree—this adaptation is “good for movies and it’s good for books,” driving new interest in Homer as well as in big-screen spectacle ([31:47]).
• Room for future re-readings and re-imaginings: The poem endures; the movie “carries the banner… even further into the future” ([31:47], [55:56]).

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For further exploration:

• Dive into their previous Odyssey episode and the Emily Wilson interview for more on translation and modern reading.
• Listen for the team’s favorite moments—Circe’s spell, inside the Trojan Horse, the bow trial, and the gut-punch lines on nostalgia and loss.
• Watch for upcoming epic-adaptation Oscar showdowns—Dune Part 3, Project Hail Mary, and others are set to compete with The Odyssey this year ([87:37]).

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Next up: Look for more “book vs. movie” deep-dives and perhaps, as teased, a “Sheep Detectives” episode when listener reviews hit 1,000.

“A magisterial, worthy, interesting, fascinating addition. You know, again, this is just going to be a version of The Odyssey. … The text is going to exceed this for as long as we know about such things.”
— Jeff O’Neill ([90:48])

Transcript

[Jeff O'Neill]

This episode of Zero to well Read is sponsored by ThriftBooks.com not just books, though. With ThriftBooks you can get DVDs and Blu Rays as well. So we're talking about a movie today. You've heard us talk about the Odyssey. Of course, you can find whatever translation of the Odyssey you're likely looking for. Latimore, Fagels, Fitzgerald Wilson. But also, if you wanted to see a different quote unquote translation, you could check out say oh Brother, Where Art Thou? The Coen Brothers loose adaptation of the Odyssey starring George Clooney set in the American South. Actually, a really fun adaptation, one I really like. Maybe my favorite film adaptation before having seen the Odyssey over the weekend. Of course, you could also check out Oppenheimer if you want to look at some of the same issues we talk about in the show that Nolan is interested in, sort of continue through his version of the Odyssey. Go check out thriftbooks.com all right, time for the show. Welcome to Zero to well Read, a podcast about everything you need to know about the books and movies you wish you'd read or seen. I am Jeff o' Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky. Today we are discussing Christopher Nolan's epic adaptation of the Odyssey, and we are delighted to welcome back Book Riot's managing editor, Vanessa Diaz to the show. Vanessa, thanks for writing with us.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I would work for free today for this. I would like to not have to make that choice. But yeah, I'm so excited.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And for folks who are Zero to well Read listeners but maybe have not heard me and Vanessa do our movie book to movie thing over on the Book Riot podcast, she frequently hops in the sidecar with me for Adaptation Adventures. We're so glad to have you here on Zero to well Read. And the three of us, I should say, have not talked about this. No at all. Which is unusual. Usually there's like a vague text, a couple of emojis, me sending Vanessa and all caps, oh my God, girl, something. But we're here. We're pure. We're ready to talk about it quickly

[Jeff O'Neill]

before we get going. So if this is your first time with us, this is not our normal format, though we thought this is a good time to break out a format we've used in prior shows where we talk about an adaptation in concert with the book. So it's not a straight review of the movie. It's we're going to talk about whether we liked it, of course, as part of the way. Nor are we getting the full Zero to well Read treatment on the Odyssey that's already there. We're going to do kind of just enough to orient ourselves because what we're interested in is you know, what is this adaptation doing? What does it bring new to the table? What doesn't do very well for someone who care who someone who might listen to a show like this. Like what can we add to a conversation? Understanding, interpretation. That's fun, enlightening. Maybe highlight some things at the same time. Click the link in the show notes to become a member for access to guided read alongs included the one for the Odyssey. We've got some other things in the hopper also early ad freed episodes and some other bonus concert at patreon patreon.com schlast show to well read and a really good chance to rate and review wherever you're listening. We're on the march to a thousand. We're getting some ideas about what to do as a special episode when you go to a thousand. My favorite one so far is that we do I guess it might be something like this for the sheep detectives. Read the original book and then watch the movie Sheep Detect and talk about it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So tempt me with another good time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So yeah, that's a hilarious suggestion which would be weird because both of our book to movie adaptations in the zero world would have sheep as prominent members of the cast and things here. All right, so Rebecca, we do in our normal episode, we do what's it about and it is about kind of the same thing. Right? I mean we. I don't do too much.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. If you want to hear the whole download, go back to our episode about the Odyssey. It's just a few episodes back in the feed. We also have a great episode with Emily Wilson who wrote one of the best selling translations of the Odyssey. She was the first woman to produce a full translation in English. And we got to talk with her about how to approach this work but also in general how to approach big intimidating books. So if you are like circling around picking up this book before or after you see the movie, we've got a lot of good resources for you. This is about a face, a fleet, a war, a man, a thought, a trick. It's been 20 years since Odysseus went away to fight the Trojan War and the folks back home are getting restless. His wife Penelope is fighting off young suitors. They're camped out at the palace. They're eating her food and drinking her wine and they're waiting for her to choose one of them to be her husband. Penelope and Odysseus's son Telemachus, who was a baby when Odysseus left, is struggling to come into his own. He's caught between childhood and adult life and his future is hinging on his father's long awaited return. And meanwhile, Odysseus spent the first decade of his absence fighting the war. He's been trying to get home ever since. There were a series of, let's call them, setbacks and deaths of all the men who survived the war with him. Then he got trapped on Calypso's island, where he has spent seven years before finally being allowed to return home. As he's making this final leg of his journey home, Athena sends the son Telemachus out on a journey of his own in search of news about his father. She's hoping it's going to force him to grow up and that he will find out how great of a man his father was and actually learn that. Dad. Dad's coming home. Their stories run on parallel tracks until they both return to Ithaca, they're secretly reunited, and then they plot to kill the suitors, reclaim the kingdom and reunite, unite Penelope with her man.

[Vanessa Diaz]

But I'm bump, bump.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And things that have changed in the movie actually fall outside of like a Wikipedia style summation. You know, it's the gist. Like anything that's changed, you have to have a little bit more nuance understanding of the original poem. And that brings us to what did we bring to the movie, right? In Empire Strike Back. In Empire Strikes Back, Luke goes into this cave in Dagobah and he sees, you know, Darth Vader. Then he hits his face and it's Luke's face and he doesn't understand what's in it. And Luke's like, what? What was that? And Yoda says, only what you brought with you. So I think we brought. We bring a lot of ourselves into these situations.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Rebecca, you first. What did you bring into the room with you when they were they. When they hit the lights?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, I had read the Odyssey once in college in a really formative educational experience. Just a seminar that was a really terrific moment in my educational life. And then I read it once in June of this year for this podcast. I'm into it. I really love the Emily Wilson translation. I read Fagel's the first time around. They both have things to recommend them, but I found Wilson's to be so accessible and a really great setup for encountering the story told Christopher Nolan's way and with American accents.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Vanessa, I know you like a mythological retelling, but I did. I don't know your relationship to this particular. This er or you know, with the Iliad, the ur mythologies.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I think it actually, I was trying really hard to remember. I think this may have been the thing that sparked it. I was a really annoying high schooler and I remember not. So I've read it once in high school, twice in college and in high school. I remember like not 100% vibing with it all the way, but I had questions every five seconds about like, well, who is this person? Because like, you know, there was enough familiarity with the background mythology just from pop culture that I kind of Knew some, but not all of the references. And so I would stop to ask about them all the time. And my teacher was finally like, a, go read the Iliad. B, go read the, you know, Hamilton's mythology and like, leave me alone. And so this is, I think, the thing that really kind of sparked it. So I have read it several times, but not at all recently. It's been like years.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So you don't have it fresh in the chamber like Rebecca and I have done since we did it for the show. For me, I had a pretty terrible high school experience, I believe, with the prose translation pro forma, Western lit survey, blah, as an undergrad. And then I had. It really came alive when I had to figure out some way to teach it. Like, what can I say to 18 year olds, willing, able 18 year olds that will bring this alive, make it seem relevant, give them some backstory. And as I have always found, and I think, you know, to a certain degree, Rebecca found this in just talking about a book. It comes alive when you got to engage with it. You're trying to figure it out and try, why did I feel this way about her? What's going on with this? Or what are some interested interpretive and existential possibilities? So like anything, it's better when you say, huh, I wonder what's going on here. I'm an Iliad guy. I think I should say that out loud. We are represented pretty well in the Nolan. We get actually quite a bit of Iliad core stuff, especially around the Trojan Horse. And so the Odyssey has always been 1B for me. But again, we've talked about it recently and I'm in on all the things at the same time. Why is the book important and. Or interesting? This is sort of laughable for something like the Odyssey. Except. Except. And I think this is something Nolan is dealing with. When something is so familiar, its essential strangeness can be sort of glossed over. Right. Like the weirdnesses, the. The complexity of the particular text. So this is one of the most significant works in the Western literary canon, really with the Iliad and Odyssey. There were. There are other poems and things from this, but these are the two that get taught, say in Western lit survey courses and with the Bible and with Shakespeare, especially in English. Like, these are the. These are the water, these are the watersheds where everything else flows as far as we understand. And that's important to say about all of this as far as we understand. We don't know. Was there a Homer who was doing this, the transcription, everything else. But to the best of our sort of collective understanding, it was composed in the 5th, 5th to 8th century BCE. So we're looking at almost 3,000 years ago, and then canonized by the 6th and 5th centuries when writing and sort of the high classical Greek period. When we think of, you know, Plato and Aristotle and the great tragedy, the invention of theater that they gave us, that's, you know, several hundred years later. And then the past that it's talking about, we actually don't know if any of this existed. Right. There's probably a place called Troy. There's been some archaeological stuff, but in terms of actual characters, even the humans here, we have no idea if they existed. They were talked about in other poems and plays, but also, who knows, because even then was four to five hundred years before we think the Homeric poets were composing this. So it's in the midst of time. Like, I think this is one of my favorite things about the Odyssey itself. And then the actual text is it is actually about coming out of a mythic past into a human one. And Nolan's hits that in a little bit different way. But it's very much on the same. Like, we are going into modernity somehow with this probably written in sections, was probably never performed all at once. Because it's so freaking long, though. I was thinking about, you know, probably in an Eminem concert, more words are said by memory than are actually in the Odyssey. So I certainly think it's possible.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

12,000 words. 12,000.

[Jeff O'Neill]

12,000 words. Yeah. I'd like to know this. If anyone knows I can find out how many words would Eminem say in an hour long performance or even if

[Rebecca Schinsky]

you perform that long interview question.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, right. So it's a. The text itself was a transcription of things people were hearing. It's very murky, I guess, is the most important thing here. And then became foundational at the same time. Rebecca. What? What? I'm not. Vanessa, I'm not going to call on you to remember your. Your initial reading experience. Rebecca. We've done it recently. What was it like to read. What is it like to actually read the damn thing?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And encountering as a modern person a

[Rebecca Schinsky]

little bit of everything all rolled into one. As my favorite Meredith Brooks 90s song attests. It's because the Homeric poems precede separation or even the idea of genre. The story has everything. The Odyssey has history, it has religion, it has ethics, it has anthropology and sociology and metaphysical stuff. And the whole thing is intended as entertainment. These were stories told, like around campfires and at Social gatherings. Rhapsodes were traveling from city to city or village to village. And probably much like the way David Sedaris works today, where he's testing out new material on stage and like making notes of what works with the crowd and then updating the essays as he goes. Like this gets boiled down to what works for the crowd and what people respond to. So it's really captivating. If you are thinking about picking up the book, I found it to be a lot easier than Shakespeare. Both of the modern translations that I've read are easier than Shakespeare. And not to say that Shakespeare is hard, but like, when we conceive of difficult, like, quote, unquote, difficult experiences, reading these are challenges that people take on. Wilson's, as I've said, is especially accessible. It has sold the most copies of all the Odyssey translations since the film was announced in 2024. And the whole, whole thing does just defy modern reading expectations. Like, there's not a lot of character psychology. There's not a lot of internal or interiority reflected. Their motivations are different. It's. It's told in these episodes. It's really strange. There's all these monsters and all these monsters and the gods show up and the gods have ideas and motivations of their own and they can interfere in the lives of humans. But you humans are also not just subject to the God's will. They have some free will as well. Like you just have to sort of go for the ride rather than bringing modern expectations to the story.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And I found similarly with when we did Oedipus Rex, like you kind of stand before it initially, like it doesn't have a moral necessarily. You know, maybe I'm foreshadowing what I want to talk about the Nolan. But like, it is. It is all these genres. It's like a tapestry that you're looking at like a panorama. And it doesn't have like a traditional. This is before Aristotle's con, you know, conception of tragedy or comedy. Like, it doesn't have any of the regular story. Beats even Joseph Candle's power of myth. I'm like, I'm not so sure, jc that it really goes on to those sort of things. So it's good, it's different, it's strange, it's alien to us in a lot of way. And that's what makes it exciting in some days. But it. But it more that more than the language or the actual sentence by sentence are really foot by foot, line by line. It is what does it all add up to Becomes an interpretive question both historically and then for what does it mean for the questions that humans continue to be interested in? How does a modern reader sort of care about at the same time? Having said that, there are some big ideas in the book Fathers and Sons, you know, the Telemache, which is the first few books, and then the end cap, where Telemachus is sort of trying to become a king turned from a princeling into a king dealing with his own mother. Quite sharp, the exchanges between Penelope and Telemachus. Telemachus in the book. And so that's one thing. What does it mean to be a king? What does it mean to come of age? What does it mean to become a person in the world of consequence? It's also really concerned with hospitality. And the most common familiar translation is guest friendship. We'll get to what Nolan does in a minute where it's like you come to someone's city state. That's what these were, right? There was no Greece. There was a bunch of these city states like Ithaca and Thebes and Sparta. Those are some of the ones that we encounter here. You could come into the home and you could expect a hot meal and a warm bed, at least for a little while. And then kind of like any good guest, even modern, you sort of know when to leave. Like you get the hint, like that's enough already. But there was an expectation that you could come in as a complete stranger with no, nothing to your name and at least get something. And you would be treated differently, of course, if you were a king than if you were someone with nothing. But you would get something and you'd be welcome and you would be safe. Maybe most important of anything at all. But then it's also about the humans relationship to gods. The fallout of the Trojan War, what the world is like. What's out there, I think is as much of a question as anything. And that's something Nolan certainly takes and brings to bear here. But it's also, it's also, I think, really hard to put yourself in the mind of an original here, of some section of this that they didn't know what we know about almost everything. Their world is quite small. And so out there you wouldn't try as a regular person, even as a king or queen, you wouldn't be doing a lot of traveling, maybe to some other islands, but you wouldn't be going sort of this at this point in time. I don't even know that they knew about the Pillars of Hercules, sort of out by, you know, the Spanish, African, narrow that sort of opens up in the Atlantic Sea. That's beyond Italy. That's. The Italians are not here. Not even the Italian land Italians, actually, the Romans come after the fall of. That's a whole. I got to get down the rabbit hole. I can't do that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Bring it back.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But. But the idea here is, like, they're interested in the world, but their technology and the geopolitics of the day make it dangerous to go too far out. So the importance of this guest hospitality thing makes it possible to travel two islands away and not get your head cut off and, like, all your stuff stolen. So that's one thing that's going on at the same time. They don't know science as we know it. They don't have writing at this time. That's why it's oral poetry. So even knowledge moving between places is very unreliable over time. And that's something that we just have to accept as a modern reader as being untrue for us. But they're also interested in these things at the same time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Like, there's no international mail service, so Telemachus has to go to other islands and visit people who fought alongside his dad in the war to get stories about his father and find out if he's headed back. Like, that's the quickest way to do it, is to go on a whole ass journey.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. All right, So I think we're ready to turn towards adaptation. Vanessa, I'm going to throw this to you. How. How juiced were you when you saw initially the news about the Nolan the Odyssey, like, was this immediate, like, oh, my God, let's go. Are you nervous? Just talk to me. Because I think Rebecca and I have talked about on the show, on the brp, especially our own journey, but, like, where were you in anticipation and excitement for this?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was gonna say the juiciest, which sounds really gross, but, yeah, very good. So I. I mean, obviously, I listen to, for content reasons, a lot of our content. And I was like the third person talking at y' all when you were all geeking out about hot creeks. I'm like, me too.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Me too.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Because I just the most excited for many reasons. Nolan related reasons. The cast was just so jazzy. And again, I'm a myth nerd. I really do enjoy the story very much. I. I was not. I don't know if nervous is the right word so much as just like, how do you attack this? And obviously, if anybody's going to do it, it's gonna be someone like Nolan, but there's Just so much to do here. It's like, how. What's gonna get left out? What's gonna get reinterpreted? What's gonna get done really well or not? And yeah. So very, very excited. And again, maybe just sort of with that nerve, semi nervous, like, how's this gonna go?

[Jeff O'Neill]

So, yeah, cool. Rebecca, we were, we were very excited. Nolan has done. I mean, we're not movie nerds, but we've seen the Nolan's like, this is an event thing, like the box office shows this. He is a filmmakers filmmaker in this regard, which he cares about film. All the IMAX stuff. We're going on location, we're doing almost all practical effects. I don't know if there's any, I don't know what, if any CGI's across the board. And then we start getting the casting. You know, Matt Damon, who is Gen X core at his core, to see him play, if not aged and aging hero one who's also played one of the great smart guys in cinema history in the form of Will Hunting, is very interesting. Everything that he brings with him there. And then we get the boy prince of Holland of Hollywood, Tom Holland, and we get Zendaya and all they bring. And she's in it a little bit in a quite an interesting role. And then Bernthal and Lupita Nuongo and Samantha Morton and Charlize Thera and then Rebecca's like personal favorite, Hamish Patel. It's like everybody that we want, even some remember, remember the Titans fan get a little bit, you look out for who plays mentor in this. If you love, remember the Titans. So the casting there, we get Ludwig Goranson doing the score, which if there's one big winner for me, it might be him. Frankly, we can talk about that a little bit. At the same time, a huge budget, Nolan using all of his chits in Hollywood to cash him in. Apparently he was in discussion to direct the movie that would become Troy starring Brad Pitt before, but he decided to go the Batman route and accrue those chits and cash them in a little bit later. So he's been interested in this world for a long time. Rebecca, what else, what else? About the run up to the show, the anticipation to build up this setting the stage here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, this is also the first movie to be shot entirely in imax, which is exciting as a viewing experience, but if you care at all about how things are made, it's really fascinating. The cameras are huge, they make a lot of noise and the film has to be changed like every Three minutes. So, like, you can go down a lot of rabbit holes about, like, the special blimps that they had to build to hold the cameras so that the actors could actually hear each other? And then these systems of mirrors that were built so they could see each other because the cameras, again, are so big that they're in the way that if you're filming a scene of two characters talking to each other, they can't actually be very close. I was just curious about how it would flow. Would you feel any of that, that the changes are happening so frequently? I personally didn't feel any of it at all. And like, Vanessa, I was just really curious about what Nolan would choose to put on screen from, like, the big set pieces and especially the fantasy elements. Like, I've been wondering, are we gonna see Scylla the sea monster and Charybdis the whirlpool, or are we just gonna hear about some of these things that would typically be done with cgi, but that Nolan prefers, you know, not to do? And really how he was going to try to make the story more legible to modern audiences. Like, it is a big adventure. Fathers and sons, man, you're coming home to your wife. Like, there's a lot that is just relatable, no matter. It's enduringly relatable, no matter the time frame. But there's a lot that is really strange. So, like, how was he going to explain. Explain the gods? How was he gonna do all the hospitality stuff that is so integral to the story, but it's just woven in. When you read the poem, no one ever steps over. There's not. No. There's no narrator being like, and this is why hospitality matters.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And, oh, isn't that weird? You know, like, they're sort of like, taking as it comes at the same time, which is fascinating. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, like, the cast was so stacked that it was also a bing. Fun question for me. Like, what were going to be the standout performances? Bernthal. Like, I love John Bernthal. And I was just curious, like, how could a guy who tends to have the really modern agro vibes, how's he gonna show up in, you know, Ancient Greece was delighted. We'll get into that later.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So, yeah, there's so much notable about it. We can. Let's start talking about what it was like to watch this. So we should. We do our initial. Our reactions before we get into, like, do we come to this with gold stars? Do we have demerits? We have TBDs. Vanessa, why don't you start What. What was your reaction when you walked out of the Odyssey and how.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Great. Sorry, I just completely. Like, I didn't even let you finish. I had a great time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's fine.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I. Yeah, it was fantastic there. Of course we're going to get into the parts that I loved versus there's a few things here and there, whatever. But overall, just as far as I think of it, when I walked out, I was like, cinema. Like, it's just. It was great. It was the visual treat. It was, as I said, the casting, like, top to bottom, I had almost no bad things to say about anything there. It was. If you come to this with no knowledge, which I think is really hard to do, but even if you did, it's just a moviegoing experience of the kind that just is always going to excite me, like, if for no other reason. And then if you are a bit of a nerd in any of the ways, there's just so much to scratch at the sounds of it. Yeah, I had a fantastic time watching this and almost went back, like, hours later to watch it again, but I'm gonna save that for this week. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rebecca.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I loved it. The woman a couple seats down from me was literally on the edge of her seat for most of it, just, like, leaning forward, hands cupped over her mouth. Like, oh, my God. It was. I mean, it's just a huge spectacle in the best possible way. Like, it looks great. You feel the sound in your body every time the war drums are beating. Like, my whole body with. Was vibrating. And I had the same. Like, it ended and I was like, art. I love art. It just goes hard and it's very. It feels very modern. Within all of its holding of ancient values. The performances are generally terrific, and I was thrilled to see that some of. Nolan writes some bigger roles for some of the side characters than they have on the page. So we got a of lot, lot of Eumaeus, who is the dedicated swineherd, your fave. John Leguizamo. Revelatory. Like, just an amazing performance out of him. Pattinson. I had been really looking forward to seeing Pattinson as Antinous, just the head slimy suitor. And he. He does it so well. Damon was great. I loved seeing Anne Hathaway do this. As Vanessa was saying, the whole cast was terrific. I had a great time. I'm gonna see it at least once more in the theaters probably, and probably two more times. What about you, Jeff? We haven't talked at all.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I'm dying, so.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, the. The moviemaking is Undeniable like it. It is like few movies you're ever going to see. I was trying to think of something that felt even equivalent like a Jurassic park or a Save It Private Ryan, where, where I was in the movie thinking, oh, this is what movies do, right? And this is what movies can do. And everyone really is firing on all cylinders. And so I, I really liked it. Now did I love it? I don't know. Because the changes that Nolan made, really additions. I think this is a really good effort at adapting which, you know, my car, my family, people I saw, we came out of thinking, can you adapt this? Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And you can and you can't. The poem itself is the form it's supposed to be in, that it was in. You can't translate the worldview. The poem is always going to be there for us if we want the original recipe thing. And I don't think I really want just a. I'm gonna do my best to get everything exactly as on the camera and everything else, because it is a commercial enterprise as much as an artistic one. To do something that cost a quarter of a billion dollars, you need people to see the damn thing. And I think what. It's both what Nolan's interested in himself and his narrativizing. I can get people into the theaters, have a good time, lend him to make some choices that I think are fascinating, but it's going to take me a while to process them. Like I'm just not done processing what they mean. The ending is meaningfully different. Odysseus, his motivation, his experience of even coming back is meaningfully different. There are some things that I think were additions that were great. There's things that were hit. We were hit over the head with Zeus's law a thousand times and it got turned into a golden rule in a way that I thought was off putting and frankly patronizing to most of us. Like we didn't. We didn't need to hear this a thousand times. But having said that, there were pieces and we'll get into the specifics here that were extraordinarily moving that I think are among the best things I've ever seen put to film. And I think at its core this is a good hearted, creative, extremely capable effort to engage with a big piece of art and then add something to it and then make it legible for the future. This is going to carry the banner of the Odyssey even further into the future already. And to that effect, I have all the admiration in the world for doing that alone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's like it's good for movies and it's good for books. There were people in line. I was listening to everybody around me in line for popcorn. Yeah. And before the movie it was like I was in between two packs of like 25 year old or like early 20s college dude. The group in front of me was talking about how they had never read it and in fact this was gonna be the first time they were seeing a movie in a packed theater. Which like, that's an incredible experience for someone to have. But also, how did you make it in your mid-20s?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Vanessa's eyes went full emoji eyes. Yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I want to be like, where have you been? What did your parents do wrong that this is your first time in a packed movie theater? And then the guys behind me were like trying to collectively remember the pieces and it was really delightful to hear somebody being like, like, oh yeah, there's what's it Charybdis? Is that the whirlpool? And then yeah, there's definitely gonna. Someone turns them into pigs. Right? Like just the enthusiasm then coming out of it, hearing people be like, I wonder if that sticks to the book. And like I couldn't help myself but turn around and be like, you know, it pretty much does. If you liked this, go pick it up. But I think it's, it's good for the story but good for multiple art forms like this, this isn't a success success before we go any further. So like if you don't want to be spoiled, this is probably the time to bounce out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I do agree that like film spoiler is different from you know, thousands of year old spoiler.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The three guys behind me said it was, they thought it was one of the best movies they ever seen. Like critics, the the Rotten Tomatoes score. The audience score is like high 90s. Like you really don't get a whole lot better than that. So people are having a good time. It did unbelievably at the box office. 125 million domestically, a bunch more. You know, Hollywood is back. I think it's going to be $10 million in domestic box office for the first time since the Pandemic. We got giant movies yet to come. Spider man and Dune. Interesting. Dune to Odyssey connections, which is a subject for a different day. So yeah, so I think it's, it's, it's a great movie going experience. I think especially we can see it a big screen. I didn't feel the lack, but I could imagine the more of seeing it on a big screen. So there's something else to say there. Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The IMAX was worth it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I believe that. All right, so we've talked about what's like to. So what it's a good adaptation. What do we mean by that when you say it's a good adaptation? It's not perfect. It's not. I don't know there's such thing as a perfect adaptation unless you're a godfather. But also meaningful. Anyway, that's a whole different conversation. But like no one can really do. I'm going to do exactly what the thing is because in the translation of the medium things have to change. Right. Just by its nature. So what are you gonna decide? What are you gonna care about? And then what, if anything, are you gonna add Vanessa. How about. What did you. What stuck out to you about this adaptation is in the quality of it. Like were there moments, performances, you know what stuck out?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, there's many. I don't even know where to start. One thing that I really. I don't know why this is the thing I picked on only because I see the note in front of me that we never actually ever with the poss. You know, we can get into the specifics of the Athena discourse in a bit and like how cool that was and the sparks thoughts that it sparked. But that we never actually saw gods on screen.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

With something that I really liked as a parallel to the ways that religion functions. Right. And so you're kind of left to wonder. Of course they ascribe everything that's happening to this like battle of wills between Zeus and Poseidon. But there was a lot of that ambiguity there of like, well, is. Is it just a storm my dudes or of course in their perception. It absolutely is. But I'd love the choice to never actually show a God on screen. I thought was a really nice like piece of commentary that I like wrote down in the dark in very weird scrawly in my little journal. Like no gods exclamation point. And then of course you managed to

[Rebecca Schinsky]

take a journal in there.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I had to because I was. My brain will scatter. And again it was interesting because I was doing it like whenever there was a burst of light just like trying different sound. So you should see the notes to they're going quite interesting. Of course the American accent of it all was a thing that I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about because I very much rail against the idea that we should always use generic McBritish for things. Especially because as we noted in this document, like that The British Empire didn't exist, but I wasn't entirely prepared. I actually really didn't mind it at all. I thought it was great for whatever reason. The thing I'm always going to rail against, especially in the end, is hearing just like dad, like, that took me out. Like, we couldn't have gone mother and father. I don't know. That was a funky thing for me. But overall, I actually thought it really worked because it just sort of stripped away any. I guess, added layers of pretension in a way that just kind of laid bare the text and made you just really listen to the dialogue.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah, that's. Those.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Those are my first thoughts, but there's so many.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rebecca.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I had a similar experience with the accents. Like, I think we've just been so trained to expect that something that looks old, everyone should sound British. Just total nonsense.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Total nonsense.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And Matt Damon being American and speaking the way that he does, I think sort of dictated. But also, as I was reading about this, like, it's easier for European actors to do American accents than for a bunch of American actors to try to believably do consistent, similar British accents. So some of it is just a practical choice. And the accent work is, like, pretty decent from especially Tom Holland, their little moments. But, like, it's mostly fine. I was just blown away by the visual spectacle of it. Like, the Trojan horse is the first big set piece.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Ooh, the Trojan horse.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

When the camera went inside the Trojan horse and the guys are all, like, on top of each other and they're sweating and Bernthal is telling Telemachus the story about, like, we were in there for days and it's covered with pig and shit. And, like, people are gonna die in here. And then they. The swords start coming through as the Trojans are testing out what's in there. And then somebody. Mission Impossible's down out of the belly of the horse in the dark of night, I was like, my soul is leaving my body. Like, this is. Now it's on, let's go. But going from that to Cyclops and then through the trials of Odysseus, but really from. For me, it was the Trojan horse. Cyclops, Cersei, Circe. Just a really overwhelming of all, almost all of the senses experience. Like, I saw footage online of people who went to see it at. In 40x, where the. The seats, like, move around to simulate what's happening on screen. Like, you would have gotten a concussion.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Apparently needed medication to deal with something like that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't think think you could even look at A person in one of those chairs moving around without getting.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Even on the regular screen, there was some boat. Like, I gotta look to the edge of this. I know it's a tough time.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Did you read it all?

[Jeff O'Neill]

No.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was just gonna ask, did anybody read it all about, like, how the Trojan horse thing was filmed?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I haven't. I've tried to avoid much of anything until today because it was interesting.

[Vanessa Diaz]

But like, apparently, you know that they. So Matt Damon, like walks onto the set, sees the thing, it's built out, it's on the beach and it's like. So we asked Stone, like, dude, so how are we to going film this? And he's like, I don't exactly know. Like, we're going to figure it out. And then they just shoved them in, in the thing and they're like, what you're seeing is. Is real. Like Bernthal. They had expected the time of year that the waters in Morocco were going to be warm, but it ended up being winter and the water was quite cold. So there were scenes when Bernthal was just like submerged in the water and apparently he was hitting that like shakes point and then kept like just powering through to like get the scene done. Nolan's. Are you okay? Like, they just. When. And we talk about no CGI or very little anyway, like they were in the trenches filming this thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's interesting, Vanessa, because I. I really thought. I think the first time my attention was really caught is that. And it was early, is that scene of the Trojan Horse that's on the beach and it's been there long enough that's been sort of affected by the tide. So it's like half submerged in the sand. And yet it's also the most sculptural, beautiful Trojan horse I've ever seen in any representation of the.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Which that makes me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I think it's not a bad metaphor for what both Emily Wilson and Nolan are doing. Like, they're taking this beautiful classical thing but doing adding realism, right? Like, okay, if it'd been out for a few days, it would be affected by the sand because the. The Trojans or Troy is up on the cliffs above this beachhead. But the Greeks are all the people we now know as Greeks, but all these individual, you know, city state people were on this dune sort of hiding behind the dune on. They're on the sand for 10 years. And the realism of what would have happened, but also then the craft of the Trojan horse and it's. It's hard not to think of that moment of. I Don't know what we're gonna do. We're gonna figure it out. Is like Christopher Nolan as Odysseus, right? Smart, capable, a craftsperson, you know, going to meet every challenge as it comes. But when given a little bit of time or a little bit of, you know, material can really build something. But at this, this combination of classical beauty and a certain kind of realism coming across in the language and the accents. But then also these amazing set pieces that are not about realism at the same time. And that's one that's always one thing that's hard to figure out about the Odyssey or really anything that has to do with gods or magic is where is that line going to be between things that could be and things that aren't? And how do you blend them together? And in this particular case, it felt seamless to me. And that opening phrase of an attirement of apparent magic I thought was fascinating, right. A modern use of a parent is like maybe, but in this it's apparent, it appears it's just there. Like we know it's there at the same time. And that spirit really carries through the rest of the movie. So that's quite fascinating at the same time, I think in a good adaptation in this regard also for a commercial success, like I said, it needs to do some things to keep a moderate. People that don't know the Odyssey, maybe they just know the word. Maybe that like it's probably the word Odyssey and then Trojan Horse and then Helen of Troy. Then it's like in terms of like what the things would be on, like a family feud like name shit from the Odys see would be on there. There may not be much. And you still have modern storytelling cinema going problems, which is how do you get people interested in the characters? What do they want? What gets in their way? Does it make sense? Does it have stakes? Does it feel like it pays off in a way that is set? Does it the end feel satisfying? And it doesn't have to always be happy or whatever, but does it feel like it did something? You went from here to there and the movie took you there. In that regard, I think succeeds on all counts, to my mind. Rebecca, what about you?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, and I think that's a good way to start talking about some of the differences between the text and the movie. Starting with the big opening shots of the Trojan Horse. We see Elliot Page in character as Sinon. Sinon is not in the Odyssey. Sinon is a character from Virgil from the Aeneid, a Greek warrior who convinces the Trojans to take the horse into the city walls. And Nolan has ported Sinon into the Odyssey as a pretty key figure. The movie basically opens with him, creates this new backstory for him, not just as a person who's, you know, helping get the Trojan horse into Troy, but also as a foil to Pattinson's character Antinous. And they have history that goes back in Nolan's telling to their young lives, to Sinon's childhood and Antinous's adolescence. But then also, a key framing difference is in the book, we first see Odysseus, Book 5 of the Odyssey, and he's sitting on the beach of Calypso's island, weeping because he's been there for seven years. And Calypso won't let him go home. She just wants to keep boning the guy forever.

[Jeff O'Neill]

She likes a piece of O, she likes a mo. That's all the big O, you might say O squared.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And in the film, he has been there for seven years, but she's been feeding him lotus flower, which makes you forget things he doesn't remember. If there's a wife and a son at home, he doesn't quite remember what he's trying to get back to. And he hasn't been ready to try to go home. So Calypso in the film, through Charlize Theron, is helping him fill in the gaps, as she has deemed. He's ready now to actually know the whole story, to like, to sit with what he's been through over the last 17 years. Very traumatic. There's a lot of PTSD happening on the screen here, but that is a key flip that in the. In the text, he's like, I've been here. You've had enough of me. I miss my wife. Like she is a mortal woman. You are part God, but I want to go home to her. And that. That impetus is different, that motivation is different here in the film.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And the framing is similar where he. He's remembering to Calypso what's happening. Whereas the. The main adventure section of the Odyssey, the poem, is him sort of telling it in court, like, here's what I've done and here's what's all happened to me. And it does all happen in a sort of flashback, which makes a lot of sense. And I think. I don't know if that's the most important change. But in terms of a modern audience's expectation of what a character's reasoning and motivation might be, this is one is legible to us, is like something really terrible happened and Sinon then becomes the vessel of his own. The cost of his own ingenuity and the cost of the victory at Troy, for Odysseus personally, is like all the. You know, there's this shot of all the armor laid out where the warriors fell, and it's just littering the beach. It looks like if you've ever been to Gettysburg, you can see all these mine, like, oh, my God, all these people. This goes back to antiquity at the same time. And he feels culpable for. Especially the. The deaths of the men that got off the beach, but he also feels culpable for other things that we're going to talk about at the same time. And then this idea that he has to heal, like, he has to be ready for it, you know, like in. In one of the Marvel movies, I think at the end of Captain America, the first one, he's like, he has been brought forward in time and they've made this fake, like, 40s hospital room for him, even though it's like 2006, so that he has. Doesn't have sort of like caissons disease of the soul. Like, he doesn't get the bends of the soul to come out into it too quickly. So that was pretty cool at the same time, but also helps Nolan do. And I think there's another thing I was curious about. The. The braided timelines, the back and forth, the shifting. And there are flashbacks within flashbacks in this damn thing, the poem and the movie. And for my part, and again, I had the text in my mind to fall back on, but I think people followed it like, I think it works. Like, I think you get some sense of the metatextual, interwoven sense how it's a story about stories as much as anything. I think that one really shines through.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

At the same time, I think it's so interesting that you just made a reference to a superhero movie there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Because this is in some ways a superhero movie. And of course, Nolan is no stranger to superhero movies, having made some Batman films. Odysseus, kind of a superhero. But in the text, like, every time Odysseus is described, they're talking about him as a trickster, as, like the smartest, most strategic. And that comes through in the ways that we see him portrayed. But also, like, this version of Odysseus on screen has a lot of hubris. He thinks he can outsmart or maybe escape the fate that the gods that Tiresias has told him is coming for him. That, like, everyone is going to die except for you and here's like, here's how it's going to go down. And he wants to see if he can outsmart it. But he's. I found him, the Odysseus of the film, to be like, really human. That Nolan grounds the story in consideration of what it would actually have been like for a human man to go through the things that this character goes through, through to like, to sack cities, to pillage, to watch men that he has cared for die in front of him in horrific ways. And it's not in Homer's text that Odysseus has the weight of all of this on him, but we do. There's a lot of weeping in the text, there is a lot of regret. There's a lot of like, desire to recover from things. And I found that to be a really, I found like appropriate update to this for a modern translation. Like, this is realistic to me. It's not the swaggering superhero that you might expect from those descriptions of him as the trickster, the best warrior. We get to see him be trickster, we get to see him be a warrior, but he's also like truly a human man who has done extraordinary things but experienced a lot of terrifying things. And what it would, what it would really be like to be trying to get back home and recover from that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And they don't really do things out of character. Like, it's differently charactered, but it doesn't feel out of character. But I, I think it's a change and a bordering on a loss to me from the original text because one of the questions about Odysseus to a modern reader, but even to the reader of time is like, what is the nature of this person? Are they a man like us? They walk amongst the gods. We didn't do that. He's the smartest of all time. He is also the yin to Achilles yang. Achilles is the. The greatest of all humans physically. Odysseus is the greatest of all mentally. But one, one of the lessons or one of the observations you see is like neither of them enough to control your fate. Like, this is, this is the Greek thing, is like that's the most Greek thing about the whole thing. Maybe it's like, I don't care if you're the smartest in the world. I don't care if you've got all the cameras in the world, the iMac 70 millimeter film. You cannot fix the world. You cannot control the world. And it's different if it's just a guy like us because we know that It's a little bit different if it's a demigod like Achilles or someone like that. Even they, even these people of myth and legend, even Captain America or John the Baptist or Jesus or whoever cannot fix the world. And to that is like oh, the world is unfixable. Right? That is hit a little bit more home and that version of this.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Hey friends.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

unfold on the same time. It does make it easier for it speaks to our modern concerns more to the than Greek concerns in this way because one thing I think I do think we get that's a, that's pretty interesting is Penelope. We're getting to what's different here and Penelope gets is a lot the same but a lot different. One of the notable changes for me that I was not surprised to see and I'm curious what you thought Vanessa is earlier she's trying to figure out a way for Odysseus not to go to Troy. They're sitting there having some bedroom talk, thinking things through and she's like could we do this? Could we do this? Could we do this? Because that's one thing I found a lot when I was teaching. This is like did they have to go what couldn't they screw Helen, they don't have to go do this thing. And I think the movie is trying to do some objection handling to use sales parlance of like get ahead of it a little bit and say yeah, Odysseus and Penelope, they tried to figure all this stuff out and they're in bit of a bind. Vanessa, how did you Think that played. Did that make sense to you? You know, you're not with the text right in front of you. Did that work? Did you seem like it was hand holding? How did you feel about this, this portrayal of Penelope and Odysseus, especially early in the text?

[Vanessa Diaz]

No, I've.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Especially.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Honestly, I went into this especially because of Nolan's history. Not sure how much screen time any of the women were actually gonna get. And that could be. That's a whole separate conversation, probably because I still would have loved to have seen more. But I very much appreciated this. That section, because that is the thing I'm always interested in. It's like every story we ever heard about these hero journeys, it's just like, well, then they had to go. It's like, cool. What was behind? And there's, you know, again, I've gone off on many a journey with this stuff, so there's like, the backstory behind, like, why the Helen thing was a big deal. You know, he was a part of the court that at one point, you know, all the suitors went for Helen's Day. Like, he was one of those people, like, what? You know, then he didn't want to go into Troy, even. Anyway, so, like, all that complexity was Darius okay.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Exactly.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was like, how nerdy do I get right now? Because, yeah, I can. It's. It's deep, dude. But again, the women are rarely given any dialogue in those, like, pieces. So it was really nice to see a wife with some agency and concern and, like, the. The warmth, I guess, of their particular dynamic was, I thought, really lovely to see on scene. And Anne's face is just so expressive. I thought her performance was. Was phenomenal here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, Hathaway was great. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rebecca. I don't know anyone does anger crying as well as Anne Hathaway. Those big doe eyes full of tears. But also, like, that she's a little bit older. There's, like. There's a different. There's a sharpness to her that she didn't have when she was princess. Princess of. Princess of Genovia. I thought she was tremendous. That's one of the big changes. But it feels like Penelope. Like, that's one thing I have is, like, the characters feel like. It still feels like an extension of Penelope, but it still seems like the core of the character is interested in the core things of Penelope.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I think it wasn't saccharine.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like, I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. It's not saccharine. I think the lighting and how much they're outside Especially at the beginning, really was a part of that, especially for me, with Penelope. Like, they're in this really harsh Mediterranean sun. The women are not wearing a lot of makeup. Like, you can see. Like, you can see the texture of Anne Hathaway's skin. You can see that she kind of has freckles, which you never see in films. There's always so much foundation. You can see, like, the little wrinkles around everybody. Like, everyone.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's texture. Yeah, it does look great. Everyone looks very real. The, like, facial expression expressions happen. If people got Botox before they made this movie, they were not getting it while they were making it. Exactly. Like, everybody looks, like, natural and organic to that time and place. For at least as I imagine it. Like, it's believable. Of course. Yeah, but. And I thought Hathaway turned in a great performance with the material given, which is better, as Vanessa was saying, than a lot of Nolan's female characters. Like, and. And there is this power to Penelope, this kind of. Like, I've been waiting here for 20 years, and even though I'm the queen, all I can do is weave my. Weave this shroud and then unweave it at night, because sooner or later, I'm gonna have to give in and marry one of you schmucks like that. That anger comes through was. Was so potent. Like, I think the only other character or the only other actress that I could maybe imagine in that role would be. Be Claire Danes forming the sea.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Also for the rage crier.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But the Anne Hathaway's height and her carriage and that she can deliver, like, a. A big imperious moment when it's called for, was great. And she gets that moment near the end where, like, the screen opens and she's wearing that blue gown and the big gold necklace, and she's like, here's how it's gonna be.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Do you need a minute, Jeff?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I shouldn't say anything else about that. I thought in terms of the. I want to mention the craft. I'm not a filmmaker or a film student, but I do. I do notice sometimes, I thought the invention of the screen. So we get. We spend a lot of time in Ithaca in sort of this basement banquet hall. And Penelope is up on this raised sort of vestibule, but there's a screen in front of her. So she's there and not there. Right. She's visible and invisible. And when the screens get open and closed and who gets to go behind it, There's a lot of interesting things. That happen on the same time. So in a movie making, I thought that was very useful to have her be a part of these scenes that sometimes she's not in. In the Odyssey, as things are going on, like, she's always listening, she's always watching. She knows what's going on. She's using her own Odyssean, like Wiles. We talked about the main show like they are. Penelope and Odysseus are well matched. She is not accorded and afforded the same latitude because of. Of her gender that Odysseus is. But she's doing the most with what she's got at the same time. All right, so what else does it do differently that we want to hit here? We've got a lot of things. I'm not sure we'll get to all of them. But where else do you want to go, Vanessa? Where do you want to go?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I wanted to see. This is a small thing maybe, but like. Or I guess just interested. I think that the storytelling probably was served by eliminating and gotcha spend so long since I read this. But like, the original framing is that he's telling this story to. Is it the Phaeacians?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes, yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And I love the like, conceit of the winds. If I again, I'm remembering this correctly, that he is gifted by this. The queen, actually Aridi, I think was her name. Yeah, something similar that she gives him the winds and that's supposed to help him on his journey. Right. She gives him with these favorable winds that are supposed to send him back to Ithaca. But the men on the ship, in a moment of him being asleep, that's, you know, akin to the Helios and the cattle thing. They open up the bag and that. That's what's. I mean, they were within like sight of Ithaca. And then when they opened the bag of the Badouins, it sent them to the very beginning. But I liked the setup of him telling the Phaeacians his story. I do think it probably worked better for continuity sake and so people could follow along with everything to do it the way we did with the Calypso setup. But I just. I don't know, I liked that framing and kind of wanted to see Odysseus telling his story versus having no memory of the story. But it's maybe a minor quibble.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I want to hit just the practical nature of all this filmmaking one more time. Like, this was, as we've said, very little cgi, but also very little soundstage stuff they shot on location in Greece and Italy and Morocco and Iceland. The scene of Hades was shot, like, on the black beaches of Iceland. And it's really scary and mythical. They buried all the actors.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That scene was unbelievable. The Hades cast, I've never seen it done any better than that as a version of the underworld.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Incredible. And the cast really were, like, hiking up the mountain. You see the palace that Odysseus and Penelope live in in Ithaca at the top of a mountain. They're hiking up there every day. They actually were being tossed around ships on the real ocean, as Vanessa said, crammed into a real Trojan horse that Christopher Nolan built for this and that he is inside with a giant camera trying to capture. And even the really big fantasy elements were done mostly with practical effects. The cyclops is played by a human actor named Bill Irwin. And some puppetry. The sea monster Scylla is a giant puppet that looks real good. Like a Big Year. Are we Apex Mountain for puppets this year? Between Rocky Project Hillary and everything that's happening here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It is the. It is the vinyl record collecting of movie making. Now is to use a puff instead of cgi. Like, oh, yeah, okay. I'm cool. I don't even have a tv.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It looks great. Like, the Cyclops picking up these men and eating their heads.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Ripping heads off.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, it just. It looks great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Real rancor vibes. Star wars is on of the brain. I guess we're thinking of.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, it's weird and unsettling and just. I found it to be so transporting.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Someone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I can't remember who wrote the piece, but I read something over the weekend that was like. This reminded me of the difference between media that transports you and media that allows you to dissociate. And there's nothing dissociative about this. Like, you're fully in the world. Yeah. And it felt it, like, it felt real and it felt scary and potent and like Hemisph Patel as Eurylochus looking at Odysseus so many times to basically be like, bruh, dude, for real.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think that was a great addition. He was wonderful at it. But that's a good thing. I agree with you, Rebecca. He was terrific. And again, really standing in for the audience to be like, we need a little push back. Because this doesn't. There. There'd be a lieutenant saying, are we sure? You know, and that it's a brown man.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I'm sorry. I. That was. That tickled me endlessly of being like this. The brown person having, like, the sense to be like, are we really doing this?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Really doing this, like, he was always him with the.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like, come on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So, yeah, like, he told you we shouldn't do this. The gods told you, but you're gonna try it anyway.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And even, like with the moment with the sirens in the text, it's just you should not hear them. And Odysseus wants. Like, he wants to. So they tie him to the mast and you can hear them. But Damon delivers it with this little, like, there's a little playful glee to it of like. Like, I like that, right? Like, I. I want to be the first. First no one has ever heard them. I want to be the first. And then that we don't actually get to hear the siren song.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I kept being, please let the sound muffle. Please let the sound muffle what it did. I was like, good. Nothing would have done it justice because

[Jeff O'Neill]

it's an impossible task to play the song that is the song of all songs at the same time. Going back to Vanessa's point of a high mission, the casting, especially of the Ithacans, right? The Helen of Troy casting got the most press. But we find that both back home in Ithaca, and especially among the soldiers, we don't see much of the Trojan soldiers. They're all behind this sort of generic. Like, they look like Harkonnens from Dune, weirdly, a little bit like whatever they're wearing at the same time, but especially Odysseus. Men are multi ethnic, multiracial. There's Chinese people or Asian people. I think I read one of them was Chinese. And then Hamish Patel and then some other folks at the same time. And that connects to one of the bigger ideas of which is this is not just a story of Greece, is a story of humanity, right? Because one thing that's an invention is this idea that Odysseus using the Trojan horse, this is the trick to end all tricks, to use the protection of the gods in the name of Athena to give a bad gift, like in the ultimate abrogation of bad. Zenya Guest relationship Zeus law. What? Zeus law. I don't know. They'll tell you 40 times. This was somehow a breaking of the world. And so what comes after is different than what comes before. In the olden days, we had this social contract that was being upheld. But now the people of the sea are coming and I've done this thing and I've sort of unleashed the bag of winds, I guess, of moral turpitude, you know, of some kind. Like the things have been broken. And it's not just Greeks, it's all of us together. This is a human story of you. You have technology, your own human genius, your Oppenheimer, you're inventing backwards guns. In Tenet you have, you have crossed some line that you can't go back from. And now we've got to figure all this stuff all over again and repeats in cycles and cycles. So I was more than okay with the casting before. However you want to do it, I, I'm not going to be injured by that anyway. But I actually thought it added to this idea. Like this is a story of human ingenuity, of human arrogance, of human blindness and short sightedness and air and hubris which the Greeks gave us. And it was like this is humanity in the boat. These aren't just Ithacans at the boat. This is the world entire that is on this journey together.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I think that's a nice entry into talking about the biggest difference from the text, which is that Nolan writes in a moral to this story. That is that in this act of committing war and sort of going across the region taking things cause functionally colonizing, Odysseus and his men have broken the world. Like they've broken, as you said, that social contract about how we treat people. And in, in so doing they have injured their own humanity. And that's why he is suffering, that's why Odysseus is in so much pain, is that he has caused so much pain and how are we going to get back from this? And as it ends, they, he and Penelope decide after he proves that he is who he says that he is in this trial that Penelope thinks up that only he could succeed in. He shoots the arrow through the axe heads. They decide that they're going to give the kingdom to Telemachus and Penelope and Odysseus are going to sail west and he's going to honor all of the fallen men who died in service of that war and start to try to make things right. And it's basically like the world is dark and there will be dark times, but like humanity and civilization will return again. Like ultimately a pretty hopeful note, but certainly a reading on war in general. And, and I think it's probably fair to read like Nolan's editorializing about American participation in global politics.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And in the, in the, in the poem. And there's a little bit of controversy about where the poem, quote unquote, actually ends. But the poem that is mostly translated, Odysseus remains king of Ithaca. Like everything is fine, except that it's not in the, in the guards that he still has one Further task to do, which is essentially go as far as he can into the. Into land, inland, where no one's ever heard of the gods, and Poseidon plant an ore. So my pet reading of this, this is important to me because I see this as a disenchantment of the world. So you're going from the place of gods and monsters all the way to where there's no gods and monsters. Like, all the way back to modernity, back to the present moment, which any listener of the text, of course, they did not see the divine like this. They did not live in a time in apparent magic. It was inferred magic. Like, the gods are up there making clouds. But, like, it brings us all the way back into a worldview that's as disenchanted that is. Second, even if there's religious stuff that we believe, we are not seeing the spectacular in front of us in this way. So, again, pick your poison. I think that's a little oblique for a modern audience. Like, that's a little bit strange or not strange. It may be kind of thin gruel to get along at the same times. We got to keep moving here. Anything else we want to mention in the additions to this before we go to what we maybe didn't work as well? No, let's move on there. Okay. How about things that didn't work as well? So I don't know that there's a question of right and wrong about direct choices made. I think that's the implications of them. Like, the things I didn't care for, like, the Zeus's Law stuff over and over again. I didn't particularly like the. The. The. The puppet claw sock thing that came down. But having said that, it's in the text. We don't know. It's never given description. It's never been done. Well, I kind of give it a pass because it's kind of weird anyway, so I'm not too worried about it. What'd you guys have?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Vanessa, you go first.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Sorry. That. The Scylla thing totally just took me out of my brain for a second. I. So I. We were running out of time. I loved the Cersei. Like, yeah, I'm a Cersei fanatic. Like, I. Both in the Madeline Miller. So, like, I. More Circe time, please. And I really did enjoy, like, what they did with her arc. It was an interesting choice to me in the moralizing or, like, just the characterization of Odin. Odysseus. And I think it says that somewhere in this document that there was just no boning when homie spent a lot of time boning both Calypso and Cersei. In fact, the ending of the poem, depending on how you know, and then other poems that have got is like, the ending is not that he just goes off into the west, in theory, is because he not only boned Circe for a year, but they had a kid.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That kid is ultimately his demise. So there were pieces of that that made it seem that, like, he was. Not that he was a much better guy because. Because he obviously did some terrible things and he had all this, you know, moral quandary about all the bad things I've done. But then when you come back to Penelope, it's like you were also on an island for. And in this case, it's not his fault because he was fed the lotus leaf, but they took away the whole. How he stayed with Cersei forever. And so there was some of that that I was like, oh, he's. He's even more complex than maybe we're allowing him to be on the screen. Like, he.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think that just turns off a modern audience. I don't think we have. I think so too come into saying, screw this guy. I'm. Rightly or wrongly, I just don't think we have the ability that this text seems to have to hold. That is like, that happened and he's developing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just don't think we could have done that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think it's just the superhero story of it all too. Like, we have to be able to root for Odysseus and we can totally root for Matt Damon here. But if we knew that he had stayed around, you know, rolling around in the sack with Cersei for a year, and then he's on Calypso's island. Like, it. It helps that we can see that Calypso is kind of holding.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I understand why.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But the Cersei practical effects, like, just so stunning. Like, I had always. I had wondered, like, how are they gonna do. She's turning these men into pigs. And the only thing I could imagine is like old school bippity boppity boo. Like she will wave her wand or something and they will just become pigs. But the physicality of her, like, molding their heads, it looked like molding clay and like shoving their. Reaching into their mouths and stretching them into snouts. Like, just that. I really felt my heart just stop. It was incredible.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It was. It was full blown.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I could have done without the very brief fake out about Odysseus dying. Like, oh, maybe he's dead. Oh, I mean, it's just. It wasn't very long, but come on, man. The first few minutes I do think are clunky.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a little slow.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a little. Maybe it was slow, but just like orienting us in time and place. It just happens pretty quickly. And again, it's already a long movie, so I understand that. I'm not sure the Lystragonians added much. So these are the giant knights. Right. I don't know if they wanted one more side quest to put on there. There are these man eating cannibals that throw rocks from the cliffs. Like it's. I'm not sure what that did. Interesting. Like maybe also something that they had more advanced armor. They look like more like English or medieval knights. Like they almost seem like they were maybe that maybe they were a ghost of Christmas future.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is what future is going to be like these giants with these knights that just kill people. Like, I don't know. I'll try to make something out of that.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I can't think of that image was the still that I saw in a lot of the, like when I went to go like book the film. Like, that's the still they use for the Odyssey is him like in front of the like Stragonians.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it looks cool. That's a great.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Looks way more sci fi if you, like, don't know what's happening. I don't know. I. I wasn't entirely sure how I

[Rebecca Schinsky]

felt about the last like, Agamemnon's armor is full. Darth Vader.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh my gosh. That has been comic. I actually really like the choice they made. I did. In the sense that it's that like, you know, he's the first of all. When they cast Bet is it Benny Safdie, I was like, oh, that's an interesting choice. But I like that they chose someone who, you know, with the armor, he looks like this big, strong, untouchable dude. But of course he remains completely untouched. Like he just comes onto the screen looking big, bad and scary. But that to me is another perfect allegory for the way that, you know, that stuff works even today. Like the people in power not getting their hands dirty in any way. The kids are calling it aura farming. Which if you don't know what that is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Ames, My son said something very similar. Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was gonna ask the biggest order

[Jeff O'Neill]

farmer of all time. Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I saw someone like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You're spelling his name wrong.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It's Aura Memnon. And I Absolutely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'll say. I thought that was a little much. I thought was a little much. I thought it was cool when he sort of floated through. I don't know if he was on a dolly or something, because, yeah, I thought that was cool. I did not love the yada yading of why Agamemnon really wants this war, which is. It's about trade again. That's a modern sensibility. There are things going on not too far from this happens right now, that's about trade, but it's also about ego. What's going on right now is about ego as much about anything else. And the backstory that Vanessa alluded to, I think there's a way that it would have built on the themes Nold was interested in. Because the oath of Tyndareus says, Helen is so beautiful, everyone wants to marry her. How are we going to figure this out? Because it's going to lead to bloodshot. So there's this. There's this woman that everyone wants to marry, but if she picks anyone, everyone else is going to be pissed off. And it's Odysseus himself that comes up with this gambit of the oath, which says, all right, if you're going to court her, if it's not you, you're swearing an oath. Tyndarius says, helen, the king of Sparta, at this point, and says, if you swear this oath and you're going to take part of this, if anyone goes to get her, we're all going. Right? It's like, it's a deal to keep the peace earlier. And so this is another example of Odysseus trying to, through his craft for his wiles, like, keep the peace, keep to order. Cut. Try to control human emotions and then the gods, because it gets something else. I think that would be additive, but, like, the yada yada in the trade is never mentioned in the Iliad. It's never mentioned like that. That's a modern thing. And I just. I don't. I don't think you needed that. I think you could have done some version of, we understand, honors and pledges. Like, I said this thing, and I was part of trying to keep the peace. And this is. Believe it or not, Penelope, this is keeping the peace. I know it seems insane, but this is part of keeping. I think that would have worked just fine. So that's one of my quibbles, especially

[Vanessa Diaz]

with the casting of Lupita as both Clyde and Helen. Like, I thought there was so much more. And this is one of my. I'm like, I Wanted the women for all the.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And not that Nolan could control the hype around, you know, the casting, but for all the, like, hype around the casting. It's like you got mad at Helen for being on screen for what, like, seven minutes? I mean, maybe more or less.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

But I thought there was so much more meat. They could have gone into the fact that they decided to cast Lupita in both roles because suddenly that brings some complexity to, like, oh, it's the face that launched a thousand ships. Well, if they're twins and they're identical, where is some of that lost? And to me, that would have been a great place to explore. No, it was always about ego. Like, it's never. It wasn't.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The women did not go get Helen because of trade wars. That's not what that guy was doing. Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And I wanted more of that. And the fact that we got her very minimally. I just wanted her to have so much more.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's worth saying in the. In Clytemnestra and Helen historically are sisters, but not twins. So that's a choice to make them played by really the same one. But they are. But they are very much. And we talked about this in the full episode. We get a lot of examples of, like, the kinds of homecomings Odysseus should be aware of. I think one thing I missed was there was the first homecoming story we get is Nestor. And it's good. Like, sons are there. His wife's been cool, the town's been cool. He got there fast. Like, that's one version, but then we get these others. We don't actually get a good homecoming represented here, which I guess doesn't really matter, but I just thought it was notable at the same time. I think Nolan did not, quote, unquote, solve the inherent gender inequity of the poem, but he kind of did what he could without really breaking it. I'm not sure. I think you could have maybe done more, but they were given a lot more. They were more interesting. They had points of view. I think Calypso was always bit of a mystery, a cipher. She spent a lot of time on her hands and knees being like a dis Is. It's gonna be like Nightingale Syndrome. I'm not sure what's going there for

[Vanessa Diaz]

Adidas gear the whole time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, right. Yeah. I can definitely can see, like, a bougie, like, LA Boutique, like, their Calypso collection. That's all Charlize Theron's. Like, jewelry and clothes from the show in the making. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rebecca, anything here that you bumped against or you notice? Like, I'm not so sure about this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, I think I need to see it a second time to find anything that I like, really bump up against. I spent more time than I expected to after Bernthal's Menelaus moment, though, thinking about what an alternate universe version of this is with him as Odysseus. Because that is. Some of this is just fan service for Rebecca Schinsky, party of one. But he. I think his version and certainly his playing of Menelaus is like, big and swaggering and more superhero y than certainly what Daemon chose to do with Odysseus. And it was interesting to me. Like, I did not bump against Daemon's more staid, traumatized guy. Just really wants to get home version of it. I thought that was really appropriate for what Nolan wrote. But a more traditional interpretation of Odysseus as just like a big, swaggering hero would have been interesting to see Bernthal do that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And yeah, let's talk about casting. I think we're all on board, across the board. No notes. Like, there wasn't a false note. I mean, I think even like you said, Rebecca Damon was more than up to the task. I think so much of our sense of who Matt Damon is culturally is important. Like, we like this guy. We believe his heart is in the right place. We think he's smart. He's like, I don't know that Tom Hanks would have played this 25 years ago, but it's a very Hanksy and Saving Private Ryan of you would follow this guy into battle. He's going to do what he has to do. He's not perfect. He's somber, but he's also not a nihilist at the same time. Like, he is world weary, but his heart's in the right place. And I think that's the most important thing for a modern audience.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Body is in the right place, too. Like, what Matt Damon did to his body is incredible.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It does not look like it was fun, for sure. At the same time. Vanessa, how about the casting? We talked about Samantha Morton. I don't know. We talked about her enough, but we did mention her. Anyone we haven't mentioned so far that you want to get into the game?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I mean, my favorite was Double down on Patel, but which I think y' all put in there. But I thought Pattinson was, like, so good. He was. I hated him. And that was great. Like, look. Look how far Edward Collins has come. Like, I just. I think he's such a more formidable actor than. Yeah, I mean, I think he is getting credit for it, but.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But he's just like, chewing up the scenery. Like, he's just so good and slimy.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And I did get my ever effing life at the end when he was just like Spears screaming it from behind his walls.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Such a great scripting choice that, like, look at this weenie just hiding out, telling everybody else to pick up the weapon.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yep. I thought he was really great as just being really unlikable in all the ways without being like a caricature. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, actually I am remembering now. Not something that I bumped on, but I heard as we were walking out of the theater, several people being confused about Athena. And so I think if there was anything that could have been clearer, it could have been the relationship between, like, the gods and especially how Athena shows up. Because we get it pretty subtly in Holland, like looking at Mentor and being like, you have the eyes of Athena. And if you've read it, you know that Mentor is athletic Athena dressed as this other character and that she can take a lot of shapes. But I don't think that came across super clearly. And I have now seen Internet people arguing with each other about Mentor and someone even being like, that's like the character in the Odyssey is where the idea of someone being a mentor comes from. And the response on this one piece of Internet comment was like, that can't be because this movie's only been out for two days. And it was like, now I'm just gonna go.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We really need to bring the humanities and arts education back. Yeah, I thought so we didn't talk about that choice. So Zendaya, who plays Athena, at least that version of Athena, one guys of Athena that appears to Odysseus as a. As a guide, but also as a really. Odysseus, like, this is, you know, this is what you did because. And then she is also maybe a projection of his own guilt because we come to learn at the very end and maybe the. In a lot of ways the emotional climax, we see that she is either she has taken this form or diseases this form. Which is it because of the slaughter of this presumably innocent woman during the sacking of Troy where the. The. The Greek army's blood was up and they were doing the things that soldiers have done since before the dawn of time, which is bad things when they won and 10 years of rage pent up and they commit atrocities. And a lot of time those are against women, especially younger women. And that becomes, you know, his Sigil of guilt, that he carries his own sort of cross to bear, that he saw it happen. And then we get. They really put a fine point out where someone cuts off the statue of a head of the night. Like, we get it, Nolan. Okay, thank you very much. At that particular point, I think I agree with your note here, Rebecca, that Holland was fine, but you didn't ever mole, like, yeah, get in your back. He was there to be Tom Holland because the character is kind of tough. It's kind of tough. He is uncertain, he is young, he doesn't have a lot to do. This is in. This tells him to stay out of the action so that he can keep his hands clean for.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, like, I was glad it was Chalamet, which is the other actor in that age zone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Who like, probably reasonably could have been cast. Tom Holland was fine. Telemachus doesn't get really as much to do as everybody else. And also, you just. You're in incredible company when you're cast alongside Damon and Hathaway and Charlize Theron and Zendaya and Hamish Patel and Pattinson and all these guys. Like, he held his own, but I don't know who I would have cast instead, but I was just kind of lukewarm on Tom Holland here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, we get to save individual moments. What are you saving, Vanessa?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, I mean, this is. Is not a mo. It is a moment, but it's the Ludwig of it all. Like, that we didn't really get into some of the.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yeah, you're a score girly.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I'm a score girl. Like, that is the easiest way to manipulate me emotionally. And I fall for it every time and I don't care. But I knew we were going to go in. But the fact that he chose to go with a completely non orchestral approach, like, there is no orchestra. Everything you hear is supposed to be made from instruments that in theory, would have existed back then. And because, of course, they don't anymore, they reconstructed what they think they would have sounded like. And so you get these big swells of, like, drums. And there was just so many moments, whereas Rebecca said, like, you could literally feel it. And I didn't see it in one of Those, you know, 4D types of things, but I could still feel the music, like, vibrating in my chest at these big, like, pivotal moments. And so that's not one moment, but it is just a thing that I walked away, like, so incredibly impressed by. So that's one that I'm keeping. And then just the Cersei scene. In totality. I don't know if you remember, this is very specific. In Mrs. Doubtfire, which you probably didn't think you were gonna hear today, there is a scene where Mara Wilson's character is watching a horror movie she's not supposed to be watching, where someone is like claymation playing with someone's face. And I was like, that is what is happening. And the fact that there is no CGI in that is absolutely a moment that is burned into my cornea.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that rotating close up camera of the practice. I've never seen anything like it. I think that was the moment where I was like on a purely craft. Combined with a scene from the book of like this. This is the stuff right here. That's the stuff. Rebecca, what are you saving?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that we get to see the Sacking of Troy twice. Like first, and they're really exciting, like they're coming out of the horse. It's a buddy movie. There's a moment of like Bernthal and Damon just like taking shit down together. But then you see it again in Odysseus's memory of more like the tragedy of that day and the violence that it contained and what that has cost him. And I just thought that was such a smart filmmaking choice to show it to us twice. Once this really the story version and again in the human version.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think for me, right after this, I thought the siren scene was very well done. But then the line that Odysseus has about, you know, the thing you most want is a thing you've lost and can't get back again again, which is a really beautiful modern formulation of the idea we understand as nostalgia. And that really hammers the pain of nostalgia. Like this thing that you. It's not just the past, it's not just that you can't get it back. It's like there's nothing you can do. And that's the thing you want to return, right? This idea of the. The return. You can't go back to the same place. Like Odysseus knows this. I think it's a little clunky a little bit later about stuff on the boat with Penelope. But that moment, I think, okay, that's as good a formulation of bringing this idea of nostalgia into a way that we understand and we feel. Like you feel it right here. Like you don't have to understand it up here. Like you feel it right here, which is, I think, what these Homeric poems are trying to do. You're not supposed to be up here for a lot of it you're supposed to be in here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And the score to kind of tie the Yalls two pieces together. The score from the siren section returns when Odysseus and Penelope are reunited.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, just really nice, that callback.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The first time we get Odysseus plucking the bow to sort of warn the deer and give it a fair shot, I'm like, we're going to get this at the end with the suitors. And I was like, it's going to be so cheesy. It was not. It ruled.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I loved it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It worked.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was doesn't do it. And Troy just painting pictures of honor, etc. But, yeah, I thought it was great. And I love the subtlety of Anne, like, oh, and Hathaway.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I know. I had such high expectations for that final scene, especially because I really loved the return with Ray Finds and Juliet Binoche a couple years ago, which is just the chunk of the Odyssey after Odysseus makes it back to Ithaca and Ralph Fiennes, like, throws off his beggar's rag and does that whole scene in the nude. And it's just like a giant, naked Ralph Fiennes shooting arrows. And it really goes hard. And to see, like, how this was shot in that basement room with all the fire around. Like, it's dark and the camera is moving everywhere and all the men are yelling and that guy is, like, pounding through the ceiling, trying to drop the weapons down. Like, just so, so well done. So well done.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That was this Jason Bornus scene. You know, Jason's a Greek, a Greek word.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

At the same time, I was also just really glad that Nolan kept in a little bit of the fun from the poem of how much does Penelope know? Has she caught on that it's Odysseus? That she and Damon have that great exchange through the. Through the screen. And then when she opens the screen and announces that this is what the trial is going to be and it's something open only he can do, and you're like, oh, she knows it's him. She knows her man is back.

[Jeff O'Neill]

She does. I think the question's as interesting as she does in a lot of ways. If you could change one thing, what would it be? Anything come to mind?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm really torn. My, like, literary purist heart wants to resist the editorializing about, like, war is a violation of Zeus's law.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All the things that Nolan is using the Odyssey to say about modern and especially modern American life. But, like, ultimately, it really works. And I think it especially works for viewers who are coming in without the framework of the poem, which is going to be most viewers.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So I can't be too mad about it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. I mean, it was a choice. You're going to make that. Sorry, I was just going to say, like, that's. You're. You. You go in and hopefully you have a point of view and a message. And as much as I also was a little like, okay. Because, like, there's. I mean, there's just literal lines that I'm like, somebody's going to meme this and like, oh, civilization will persist. But that's his point of view, especially in the particular landscape we live in now. Great, fine. Especially because it is bringing in, like I said, folks that maybe aren't as familiar with the text. So. Great. It's not the worst thing that could happen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm still mulling this into the west ending, and I'm not saying I would change it, but I'm just not sure. My first thought, and this was the real nerds part, was like, they're going to run into some people escaping Troy and founding Rome that are not going to be happy to see Odysseus and Penelope on the Sea, which is immediately west of Greece, right there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know too much, Jeff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, you know too much. And there was this line about how, like, people will forget and then they'll remember and they'll sing about us because we couldn't write. I'm like, yeah, I see we're trying to do. But that was a mess. That was a messy. At the same time, I think Nolan

[Rebecca Schinsky]

did all his research and he wanted you to know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think. Yeah, I think too, that there, it connects a little bit this into the west of, like, Huck Finn, if I'm gonna go out west or Frodo and, like, going to the ships of the Grey Havens, like, you know, this idea that you've done the thing and now you go forth into this other place, which I kind of like. But. But I think there's something to the. They're here now and they have to live in this mess they've made. Like, this is the world that they live in now at the same time. But I. I think it is a satisfying ending, especially for a modern viewer. And me too. I like, there's a part of it that I really like. I. Part of, like, they go, we just do a. Penelope's plan. Like, we're going to run it back and we're going to do Penelope's plan at the same time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Well, as a lot of Folks noted in our read along the ending of the poem itself. Like, it just kind of ends.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It just kind of ends, you know,

[Rebecca Schinsky]

and it just kind of ends a couple times. And like, Nolan needed a way. Like, you need a good ending for a movie like this.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Hollywood production. No, you're right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was sad that we didn't get the giant bed that Odysseus.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Oh, yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like in Built into the tree.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would have been cool.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I do remember a lot from my high school days, it turns out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, you do. It turns. Shake it loose there. This is just the phrasing from the original format. Is there meat on the bone for another crack at this?

[Vanessa Diaz]

And I'm gonna try my first is

[Jeff O'Neill]

not in my lifetime. I don't know why you would do this. I don't know why you would. Best adapted screenplay. This is something Rebecca and I like to cover on the show. Rebecca, walk us through our murderers row of what we have already.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is going to be an absolutely bananas year for best adapted Screenplay because we already have Project Hail Mary. We have the Odyssey. Dune Part 3 is coming out. Wuthering Heights could get one. I'd be surprised. But it could. Is God is. Is an adaptation of play and the film is a good adaptation of the play. So, like, that's maybe, like, it won't win, but that could maybe get a nomination. The Dog Stars is coming out this summer adaptation of Peter Heller's novel. I've seen the trailer for that a few times now. I can't decide if it looks good or not. Or maybe I just don't like Jacob Elordi. But, like, there are a lot. There are going to be a lot of adaptations. And I think, very reasonably, Project Hail Mary, the Odyssey and Dune Part three will all be in the running for best adapted screenplay, I think.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Depends on how good the movies are. But we Fall and I am Rocky if good and people like I Am Rocky is not based on a book, but it would be in the adapted screenplay category because of this music stand story.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Tony would too, as an adaptation of Kitchen Confidential, if that's good.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Pretty cool. I would expect almost every category that the Odyssey is eligible for, which I assume, knowing this production, except for animated, like, literally not animated and everything else. Not just to be nominated, but to be a. You've got to knock the champ out sort of situation at this point with Odyssey.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it's going to be fascinating. Especially just the face off between this and Dune.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Dude. Yeah. I wonder, is it Zimmer that does Dune? Like, I'LL be really interested for the music if, like, he pull. Because it's Hans Zimmer, so he could pull it up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's Zimmer sort of doing his Ludwig. Is that his version of what he's doing is kind of what he's doing in Dune. It's really funny.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They showed an extended trailer for Dune 3 in the IMAX viewings of this, and so we. We got to see that footage. And I thought, like, man, they should just be selling tickets for Dune part 3 as you leave the theater in the Odyssey.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Absolutely.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Just buy them now, baby.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Which they are linked, as Jeff said, like, in a very distant way, which

[Jeff O'Neill]

is why you could never have been able to figure out. Vanessa, could you ever figure out the. The connection between the House of Atreides.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I believe the Atreides line is descended from the Atreides that was Agamemnon's father and that he.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, no, the Atreides in. In Greek, but, like, in Dune, why did. Why did Frank Herbert call them the Atre. The House of Atreides?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I'm not sure, but he just. He's like, yeah, he's a descendant. Like, cool. So in my mind, it's like, okay, so we're not getting chalamet.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Before we get out of here, I do want to give you, Jeff, the you were right award that we did not see Telemachus string up 12 slave girls at the end of this. You called it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I. I was on Traitorous Slave slash, handmaiden watch. Right. Because we did. And I was like, is they gonna. Are they gonna kill. They didn't. She just ran under the table, rolled under the table. And also, they didn't kill all the suitors. Like, so the ones who bent the knee got spared, which I believe is not something there in the Texas modern sensibility of, like, what's fair. Just was not gonna have bloodbath. Bloodbath at the end.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was actually, we're headed out of here. But I was interested to see that they didn't lean at all into, like, the sexual violence of it all, just because I wasn't sure if that was gonna go anywhere. And I was like, I think that's

[Rebecca Schinsky]

so smart not to put that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. I just wasn't sure, to be honest, how that was gonna go. And the fact that it's all just sort of implied, but. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. A magisterial, worthy, interesting, fascinating addition. You know, again, this is just going to be a version of the Odyssey. Right. That's another thing to remember. This. This. The. The text is going to exceed this for as long as we know about such things. But a really fun conversation to get to have with you guys. I'm so happy we get to have the classics come into the monoculture for a weekend a week. My timeline, my algo is the Odyssey all the time right now, which sometimes algorithms are good maybe. On that note, if you've got a time to rate review the show, please do that. You can follow us on the socials at 02 well Read podcast shoot us an email 02 well Read bookright.com curious about your own reactions in the movie theaters, the stories, whatever else is going into it. And Then of course patreon.com 02 well read for guided read alongs and membership options. Finally, thanks to Thriftbooks for sponsoring this season of Zero to well Read and Zero to well Read is a proud member of the Airwave Podcast Network. Vanessa Rebecca thank you so much.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Always a good time.