The best (and worst) oats for your health | Prof. Sarah Berry

Summary

ZOE Science & Nutrition: The Best (and Worst) Oats for Your Health | Prof. Sarah Berry

Release Date: March 6, 2025
Host: Jonathan Wolf
Guest: Professor Sarah Berry, Nutrition Expert at ZOE

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Introduction

In this episode of ZOE Science & Nutrition, host Jonathan Wolf delves into the contentious debate surrounding oats. Once hailed as the quintessential healthy breakfast choice, oats are now scrutinized for their impact on blood sugar levels and overall health. To shed light on this controversy, Jonathan is joined by Professor Sarah Berry, a leading figure in human nutritional studies and the chief scientist at ZOE. Together, they undertake a real-time experiment to monitor how different types of oats affect their blood sugar and discuss the broader health implications based on the latest scientific research.

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Quick Fire Round

The episode kicks off with a rapid-fire segment where Jonathan poses listener questions to Sarah:

1. Are oats bad for us?
   Sarah: "No."
   [01:53]

2. Are all oats good for us?
   Sarah: "No."
   [01:59]

3. Are the heart healthy labels on oat products sometimes misleading? Is oat milk as healthy as some think?
   Sarah: "No."
   [02:13]

4. Is there a healthy way to enjoy oats?
   Sarah: "Absolutely."
   [02:17]

5. What's the biggest misconception about oats?
   Sarah: "I think the biggest misconception is that all oats are bad for us."
   [02:23]

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Understanding Oats: Types and Processing

Professor Sarah Berry begins by elucidating what oats are and the various forms they take post-processing:

• Oat Composition:
  Oats are seeds from the Avena sativa plant, similar to wheat. The edible part comprises the bran (outer layer) and the endosperm (starchy core).
  [04:29]

• Types of Oats:

  • Steel Cut Oats: Least processed, cut into pieces, and take about 30 minutes to cook.
    [06:00]

  • Rolled Oats: Steam-treated and flattened, requiring roughly 20 minutes to cook.
    [06:30]

  • Instant Oats: Pre-cooked and finely ground, cooking in just 2-5 minutes.
    [07:45]

  • Oat Flour and Oat Bran: Finely ground oats and the fiber-rich outer skin, respectively.
    [09:42]

Notable Quote:
"The more processed, the higher the blood sugar response."
– Prof. Sarah Berry [18:07]

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Blood Sugar Experiment: Real-Time Analysis

To practically demonstrate the impact of different oat types on blood sugar, Jonathan and Sarah conduct an experiment by consuming a bowl of instant oats and monitoring their blood sugar levels using sensors.

• Initial Observations:

  • Jonathan experiences a headache, indicating a potential blood sugar spike.
    [12:09]

  • Sarah feels satiated and energized due to a balanced meal with added proteins and fats.
    [12:30]

• Blood Sugar Readings:

  • Jonathan's blood sugar spikes to 10.7 mmol/L from a baseline of around 6 mmol/L.
    [12:58]

  • Sarah's levels rise to 8.4 mmol/L, higher than her previous day's numbers.
    [13:12]

Notable Quote:
"It's the structure of the food that affects how quickly blood sugar rises."
– Prof. Sarah Berry [18:07]

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Health Implications of Oats

1. Blood Sugar Control:

• Instant Oats vs. Less Processed Oats:
  Highly processed oats like instant oats cause rapid glucose absorption, leading to significant blood sugar spikes. In contrast, steel-cut and rolled oats have lower impacts due to their structure, which slows digestion.
  [13:22 - 19:55]

• Personal Variability:
  Individual factors such as sleep, stress, genetics, and overall lifestyle influence blood sugar responses. Jonathan admits having poor blood sugar control compared to Sarah.
  [16:55 - 17:32]

2. Long-Term Health Benefits:

• Epidemiological Evidence:
  A study following over 500,000 individuals revealed that oat consumers had a 15% lower risk of type 2 diabetes and a 20% lower all-cause mortality rate compared to non-oat eaters.
  [26:27]

• Cholesterol Reduction:
  Oats contain beta-glucan, a fiber proven to reduce total and LDL cholesterol levels. Consuming at least 3 grams of beta-glucan daily is necessary for these benefits, a claim supported by both FDA and EFSA health guidelines.
  [28:58]

Notable Quote:
"The food matrix, or the structure of what we eat, significantly influences our blood sugar response."
– Prof. Sarah Berry [18:07]

---

Concerns About Oat Products

1. Oat Milk:

• Processing Issues:
  Oat milk typically contains about 10% oats, which are highly processed to create a liquid form. This process involves heating, grinding, and adding enzymes to break down carbohydrates into simple sugars, making it similar to consuming sugar directly.

• Health Implications:
  While oat milk can reduce cholesterol if consumed in large quantities (around a liter daily), this is impractical for most people. Additionally, the high sugar content and added ingredients like oils and stabilizers negate some health benefits.
  [38:41 - 40:59]

Notable Quote:
"Oat milk is mainly water, and the oats have been degraded, making it less healthy than traditional oat forms."
– Prof. Sarah Berry [41:22]

2. Pesticides in Oats:

• Glyphosate Exposure:
  Oats can absorb glyphosate, a pesticide used to dry grains before harvesting. While organic oats typically have lower levels, conventional oats may contain trace amounts. Regulatory bodies have set strict limits to ensure safety.

• Health Risk Assessment:
  Current evidence suggests that occasional consumption of non-organic oats is unlikely to pose significant health risks. However, choosing organic oats is recommended when possible to minimize exposure.
  [34:18 - 38:30]

Notable Quote:
"Unless you're eating oats in excessive quantities daily, the glyphosate levels are generally safe."
– Prof. Sarah Berry [36:50]

---

Personalization and Recommendations

1. Optimal Oat Consumption:

• Choosing the Right Oats:
  Opt for steel-cut or whole rolled oats with minimal processing. Check packaging for minimal ingredients and longer cooking times, indicating less processing.

• Balancing the Meal:
  Enhance satiety and stabilize blood sugar by adding proteins, healthy fats, and additional fiber. Examples include adding nuts, seeds, yogurt, or nut butters.
  [43:07 - 44:03]

2. Alternative Breakfast Options:

• For individuals with poor blood sugar control, alternatives to oats include chia seeds, which can be soaked overnight and paired with similar additions to maintain nutritional balance without causing significant blood sugar spikes.
  [49:04 - 49:45]

Notable Quote:
"The key is to balance oats with protein and fat to create a more stable blood sugar response."
– Prof. Sarah Berry [43:07]

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Final Takeaways

Jonathan Wolf concludes with several key insights from the episode:

• Avoid Instant Oats: Instant oats can cause significant blood sugar spikes, akin to consuming sugary drinks.

• Choose Less Processed Varieties: Steel-cut and large rolled oats are preferable due to their lower impact on blood sugar.

• Read Labels Carefully: Look for oats with minimal ingredients and longer cooking times to ensure lower processing levels.

• Be Cautious with Oat Milk: While environmentally friendly, oat milk may not offer the same health benefits as traditional oat forms due to high processing and added sugars.

• Consider Organic Options: When possible, choose organic oats to reduce pesticide exposure, though occasional non-organic consumption is generally safe.

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Conclusion

This episode of ZOE Science & Nutrition effectively demystifies the health implications of consuming oats by combining real-time experimentation with comprehensive scientific analysis. Professor Sarah Berry emphasizes the importance of understanding the different types of oats and their processing levels to make informed dietary choices. While oats offer significant health benefits, particularly for heart health and cholesterol management, their impact on blood sugar varies based on preparation and individual biology. By choosing less processed oat varieties and balancing meals with proteins and fats, individuals can harness the benefits of oats while minimizing potential drawbacks.

Notable Quote:
"It's essential to look at the food in its totality rather than isolating individual components."
– Prof. Sarah Berry [29:54]

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For more insights and personalized nutrition advice, consider exploring ZOE's membership offerings to tailor your diet to your unique biological responses.

Transcript

[Jonathan Wolf]

Welcome to Zoe Science and Nutrition, where world leading scientists explain how their research can improve your health. Oats were once the undisputed breakfast of champions, but today they're caught in a heated debate. Are they a heart healthy staple or a hidden blood sugar bomb? Will they fuel your long term health or leave you crashing before noon? Well, today, Professor Sarah Berry puts the controversy to rest. We'll both eat a bowl of oats and track our blood sugar in real time to show exactly how our energy and hunger levels change. And beyond blood sugar, Sarah will weigh our results against the latest research on oats and their broader effect on our heart health. So if you've ever wondered, is there a healthy way to eat oats? Listen to this episode and find out. Professor Sarah Berry is a world leader in large scale human nutritional studies. A professor in nutrition at King's College London and chief scientist at Zoe, she's conducted multiple large scale studies on oats and she leads the world's largest nutritional science research program here at Zoe. Her 20 years of research forms the basis for how we understand food and how it makes us feel. By the end of this episode, you'll know exactly how to make oats work for your body, whether you swear by them or you're searching for a better alternative. All right, Sarah. Well, as you know, we always like to start with our quick fire round of questions from our listeners. Are you ready to go?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

I am. It's my worst part, Jonathan. I hate having only yes, no, but I'm always going for it.

[Jonathan Wolf]

It's going to be fine. Are oats bad for us?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

No.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Are all oats good for us?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

No.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Are the heart healthy labels on oat products lying to us sometimes? Is oat milk as healthy as some people think?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

No.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Is there a healthy way to enjoy oats?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And so then finally, what's the biggest misconception when it comes to oats?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

I think the biggest misconception is that all oats are bad for us.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So I used to eat oatmeal for breakfast every morning, Sarah, or porridge as my Scottish grandmother would call it. And in fact, that oatmeal porridge was a regular winter breakfast for me whenever I stayed with her and then long into adulthood. But I haven't actually eaten any oats for breakfast for about the last five years. But just a few minutes ago, you and I both ate a bowl of oatmeal. And during this episode, I think you're gonna explain what's going on and we're both gonna discover in real time how this meal has been affecting our blood sugar, and that's because both of us put on a blood sugar sensor yesterday. So I'm very excited to see the results and hopefully settle the controversy around oats once and for all. But before we start to look at what's going on, just let's start with what are oats and what happens to them before they arrived in my bowl.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah. So oats are a type of seed or a whole grain, that comes from the oats, oat grass, and this is called the avena sativa plant, and I hope I pronounced that correctly. They're very much like a wheat kind of plant. And the seed is encapsulated within this hull, which is like the kind of shell. And what happens is that is removed because you wouldn't be able to eat that shell. And what you're left behind is with the oat grain or the oat seed, and that consists of this outer bran layer, which is slightly brown, orangey, which is what you sometimes see in your oat flakes. You see a little specks, don't you, of this kind of brown and orange, and that's from this outer skin. And then within that outer skin is the main part of the oat, which we call the endosperm. And it's within that endosperm that contains all of the starch, so all of the carbohydrate, as well as some fibre and as well as some protein.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

And then in the outer layer, that skin, we often call it the bran, that contains a lot of fibre. And so an oat seed typically contains about 60 to 70% carbohydrates. It contains about 10% of protein, which is quite high for a whole grain. And it contains a very special type of fibre called beta glucan. It also contains lots of vitamins, so particularly B vitamins, and it contains lots of minerals, so magnesium, zinc, iron, manganese, and it contains some bioactives, which we call polyphenols, and it contains a particular type of bioactive.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So it sounds a little bit, I'm thinking about now, like it's a bit like wheat or something that I'm familiar with, that it's like it's growing on a grass and it's sort of the seed and then it has all these different things inside it.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah, absolutely. So a little bit like wheat. And what happens is that it is then processed in different ways to form different types of oats that we would commonly recognise. So the kind of main seed that we're left with, that's edible is actually called a groat. And so this is the seed that has that bran skin on and then that kind of starchy endosperm. And these are typically then cut using steel into what we call steel cut oats. And these are groats that are literally cut about two or three times. So they're quite chunky. These are the least processed oats and they take quite a long time to cook. So they might take about 30 minutes, for example, on a hob to cook, but you can eat those as porridge. Then what you can do as well is actually roll the groat. So, so you roll that oat grain and that's what gives you the rolled oats. So typically they're steamed or cooked a little bit before so that they're soft enough to roll. And then when you roll them out, that's what a rolled oat essentially is, just a rolled groat.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And Sarah, when you say rolled, like, do you mean like somehow squashed between like two big rollers or something so that it goes flat and thin?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Is that what that means? Really heavy? Not the kind of thing you could do with a rolling pin, I don't imagine at home. I mean, I've never tried it, but yeah, industrial techniques to roll it at high pressure so that it becomes this flat rolled oat.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Got it. So it's flattened. And you said it's also like cooked a little bit through this process to.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Allow that to happen. So most rolled oats will be steamed a little bit to soften them a little bit so that they can then be rolled. Then there's another kind of oatmeal or porridge that we can also commonly buy in our supermarkets, which is the instant oats. And essentially these are the rolled oats that have been pre cooked so that they're very quick and easy for us to cook. So the groats, which are these that are then steel cut will probably take about on average 30 minutes to cook on the hob. The rolled oats that have only had a little bit of steaming before in order to roll them would probably take about 20 minutes or so to cook on the hob. And then the instant ones have been pre cooked rolled. And therefore they can take just a couple of minutes or 5 minutes to cook on the hob.

[Jonathan Wolf]

That's interesting. Cause when I grew up, my grandmother made me this oatmeal often, but she definitely boiled it on the stove with milk. And you know, I remember that very well. It's like part of the process, you know, as A child, there's something sort of, you know, you associate it then with the food that's afterwards. And when I grew up then I switched to like this oatmeal porridge in a packet that I could just rip open, put in a bowl, put in the microwave and you could eat the whole thing in a couple of minutes. And so you're saying it's the same oats in those two examples, but in the second one it's sort of been pre cooked and like chopped up more than in the first one, it seemed to me.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So you have some kind of instant oats that are literally the rolled oats that just have been pre cooked and then you've got the kind of super quick instant oats that are the kind of ones that often you find in the sachets that often are more finely ground so it increases the surface area, so it's even more quick for us to cook. Often those also have added ingredients, you know, like golden syrup or sugar or other things added to them as well. You can also go even one step further, Jonathan, to produce what's called oat flour, and that is literally again, just the oats really, really finely ground into a flour. And you can also produce something called oat bran. So you've probably heard of oat bran, it's often added back into cereals or added in an ingredient or a thickener. And the oat bran is just the brown outer skin from O, so it's very rich in fibre. So they're the key forms that are used. So we've got the steel cut groats, so the steel cut oats, we've got the rolled oats, we've got the instant pre cooked rolled oats, then we've got these super, super instant oats and then you've got the flours, you've got the whole oat flour and then you've also got the oat bran. And these all, because of the way they're processed, impact our health slightly differently.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And I think our little experiment over the last 24 hours is going to help to explain that. So I know I am doing the experiment in my body right now, but before I think you're ready to start to let me measure myself and start to explain it, I want to come to the biggest question that our listeners had. And just over and over, the biggest question was, are oats really good for our heart? Like the heart healthy labels that they're seen on all sorts of.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So I think it depends on the type of oats. And as I say, with every podcast we do, I always say it depends and it's more nuanced. But overall, I think the overall body of evidence shows that most oats, not all oats, are certainly good for our heart health because of the properties that they have in lowering our cholesterol, in controlling our blood glucose, and some other beneficial effects as well.

[Dr. Will Bulsiewicz]

I'm Dr. Will Bulsiewicz, Zoe's U.S. medical director. And as a doctor, I like to hear how Zoe positively impacts our members. I especially want to hear from Zoe members like Sandra who are going through different life stages. Sandra said that as soon as perimenopause hit, even my reasonably healthy diet didn't let me maintain my weight. But with Zoe, she said the weight is coming off now, and most importantly, I feel amazing. Zoe membership helps Sandra and other women make smarter food choices. Zoe guides her step by step toward better health. Sandra said the advantage of joining the program was getting personal results. The app guides me specifically through tailored changes to my diet. Are you curious about how Zoe can support you at every life Stage? Go to Zoe.com and take our free quiz to find out what Zoe membership could do for you. Listeners to this podcast can use the code podcast to get 10% off their membership. Now, let's get back to our conversation.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So I think now you said we're allowed to check our blood sugar, Sarah, but you also said that we're both supposed to check how we're feeling right now. Is that right?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah. So we will check our blood sugar so we can see, but also what we eat can change how we feel in as little as 30 minutes, how full we feel, our alertness levels, our mood, our. Our energy levels, et cetera, and really importantly, our hunger levels. So I guess the thing to ask you is how hungry do you feel or not feel?

[Jonathan Wolf]

Well, interestingly, I hadn't thought about until just now, and actually I feel like I've got a little bit of a headache. So I'm really interested to see what happens when I go and check my blood sugar because that sort of instant oats breakfast is not what I normally have for breakfast anymore. And of course, I also ate later than I normally would. How about you? How do you feel?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

I feel great. But mine was a very balanced plate as well. We'll dive into. So I feel really full, which is nice because often if I choose the wrong type of breakfast, I can feel hungry very quickly after.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Well, I'm definitely not hungry now. Let's see what happens with our blood sugar, shall I? We're going to scan mine and show you what I've got Sarah. Here we go. Wow. Can you see that?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So Jonathan's has just gone up to 10.7. I can't believe that. Well, I can believe it, but I'm quite surprised. And mine's gone up to 8.4, so this is higher for me than what my blood sugar was yesterday.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So Sarah, I just had 10.7 and my number, you know, when we scanned it 20 minutes ago was around 6. What does any of that mean? What's going on?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So what's happening is the carbohydrate from the oats is being processed and broken down into glucose molecules and the glucose molecules are now passing through your bloodstream. And this is what we're detecting from the glucose monitor that you're wearing on your arm. So you're seeing this increase in circulating glucose from the carbohydrates that are in those O's and this increases within five to 10 minutes after eating any carbohydrate rich meals. Typically it peaks around 30 minutes. So it'll be interesting to see what it looks like in about 10 or 15 minutes.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And it seems to me that that number has shot through the roof in the last 20 minutes when I ate this instant oats. In fact I have worn these before. I don't think I've managed to get above 10 with anything I eat in the last three or four years. I definitely did used to go above 10 before I started at Zoe. So this is, that's a pretty impressive spike I've achieved, isn't it?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah, that's quite a big increase in blood sugar levels. Now an increase in blood sugar after carbohydrate rich meal is a normal physiological response. But once it starts to get really high, quite often it can impact how you're feeling in the moment. So it might be that you have a slight headache or you might feel that your heart is racing a little bit. Also about two to four hours after having quite a big peak like that, you might get a dip in blood glucose. And we found from our own Zoe research that that dip can drive increased hunger, increased food intake, it can give you poor energy, poor alertness. What we also know is if you are eating every day, all of your meals to cause that kind of peak, that over sustained period of time, we know that that's linked to some unfavorable long term health effects like an increased risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. So I would not recommend based on that you having instant porridge on its own. With water for every meal of the day. Absolutely.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Or even every breakfast. Right?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

No, because you're likely as well to just not feel great for the rest of the day. Cause it sets you up on that kind of roller coaster where you're having the big peak, you're having this dip, it's driving you then to go and have a quick fix to get your blood sugar back up. You're then eating more at your next meal and you'll probably feel less energetic, less alert. So, yeah, I wouldn't advise that.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Now, Sarah, you didn't eat exactly the same thing as me, did you? You added all those other ingredients onto these instant oats. Why is your number not the same as my number, Sarah?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So I added nut seeds, dried berries and some nut butter. And they contain extra fibre, extra protein and extra fat. And we know that fiber, fat and protein impact the rate at which our stomach empties. They impact also the rate at which blood glucose is then absorbed from the bloodstream. And also some hormones like insulin, which obviously also impact how we metabolise the blood sugar. So by adding and layering on this extra fat, protein and fibre, it modulates how quickly we absorb the glucose. So it modulates this rise in blood sugar.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And, Sarah, when you say modulates, what does that mean?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So it modifies, it changes. So in the case of these particular ingredients and these particular nutrients, it's reducing, so it's slowing down the rate at which it's entering the bloodstream, but also changing the rate at which it's also kind of being absorbed later on.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Now, I know what we have with our meal is one part, but also it's true that we don't all respond the same right, as we eat these meals. And you already showed that, like, my baseline blood sugar was higher than yours. So even with your pairing, Sarah, and the fact that your blood sugar control is better than mine, isn't it? I think when we've done these Zoe tests, it turns out that my blood sugar control is really quite poor. My memory is that yours is fairly good.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah, mine is a little bit better than yours. Yes. And it's surprising, actually, even though I paired it with the fibre, the fat and the protein, that it's still gone up that high.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And I remember the first time that I ever did this test with Zoe with my blood sugar sensor. This was the thing that blew my mind because I sort of thought, like, these oats, right, they're really healthy for you. And yet I was having this response which was sort of as fast as when I just drank a sugary drink. And it seems to me that what you're seeing there, Sarah, is even when you've mixed in those other things, that this instant oats is. It feels like it's almost like you're having sugar with your yogurt. What's going on there?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah, and it's all to do with the magic of the food matrix that we often talk about here at Zoe, which basically is the structure of the food. So the structure of what we ate yesterday was different to the structure of what we ate today. And it's interesting because there's actually been lots and lots of clinical trials as well that have had a look at whether what we're seeing between us today actually plays out when you recruit lots of different people and ask them one day to eat, you know, one type of porridge. For example, there was a clinical trial where they asked people to eat one day these stale cut oats, another day the rolled oats, another day instant oats, and another day really heavily processed oats that are used often in breakfast cereals like Cheerios. And what they found, similar to what we've observed today, is that the less processed, the lower the blood sugar response. So the steel cut oats caused the lowest increase in blood sugar after eating the rolled oats that we had yesterday, called only a moderate increase. But as it became more processed up to the level of the oats that we had today, you got a bigger increase. And it's because of changing the structure, changing the rate at which the stomach empties it, the rate at which they're absorbed, that you see these differences. And we've done a study at King's actually, where we fed people whole rolled oats and people were fed oat flour, which is essentially pretty much what we ate in this last experiment. And they see that the whole large oats stick around in the stomach for longer. So they see this lower increase in circulating blood glucose or blood sugar. They see that the whole rolled oats stay in the stomach for quite a bit of time compared to the powders. So the oats that we had this morning are really quickly entering our bloodstream.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So actually, Sarah, what's going on now? So you explained what happened, that when you're eating the way I'm sort of thinking a bit now, I'm sort of like imagining like piranhas in the Amazon. And so you. They're like ripping, you know, like when I eat, they're like ripping apart the food. And it's a bit similar to like, you know, Sort of, you know, I fall in the Amazon river and the piranhas are at you, and clearly if you're small, they're gonna like rip your part really, really fast. Right? Whereas if it's some enormous thing, it's gonna take a long time. And that's sort of the analogy I reaching for with the difference between the oats that are all pre cooked and powdered. That basically, if my body is these piranhas getting off into the bloodstream, then it does it almost immediately. But these whole oats, it's slow and takes a long time to be able to break apart the carbohydrates. Is that you're looking at me. I think this may not be my best metaphor.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

I think that's a crazy metaphor. But obviously that blood sugar side.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And the blood sugar.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So, yes. So the large rolled oats, when they enter your stomach, there's less surface area for the enzymes to get to is one of the things. They also form bigger clumps inside the stomach. So there's even less than overall surface area for the enzymes. And it's the enzymes that break the starch, which is the carbohydrate.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Sarah, so I think you said enzymes, and I thought piranhas, but can you. Is that not the right answer?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

It's a good enough analogy. So enzymes are like kind of chemicals, I guess you could say, that break down bonds, they break our food down. So when we have a carbohydrate, which is what we call a complex starch, is a complex carbohydrate. You have these enzymes, these chemicals that need to break it down to very simple carbohydrates, because it's only the simple carbohydrates that we can actually absorb into our blood or that we can use, you know, for energy, et cetera. So the starch that's in the oat seed needs to be broken down by these chemical enzymes into the simple sugar, which is glucose. And so the bigger the surface area, the more the enzymes, I guess, can kind of attack, using your analogy, to break it down into glucose.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And my stomach is full of these enzymes.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So you have some enzymes in your mouth that's start to break down some of the bonds in the carbohydrates. You have some in your stomach and you have a lot, though, as it passes through your intestine, as it passes through your small intestine from where it's then absorbed as these very simple sugars, what we call glucose, into the bloodstream.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So I'd love to talk a minute about what might be starting to happen now inside my blood. Cause I feel like I'm going to check again, but I'm certainly hoping that it's not going to continue to spike because that seems quite scary. Let's see what's going on.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So what should be happening now, Jonathan, is most of those oats have been emptied from the stomach, most of it has passed through the small intestine. And most of it, the enzymes would have broken down, most of it's come into the blood. But you'll also be releasing hormones such as insulin that then in simple terms remove the sugar from the blood. So that you should start to be having a reduction in the levels.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So my number is down to 10.1. So you can just sort of see on there's a little graph there that it's starting to dip down. So this is now my body pulling the sugar out of my blood.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah. In simple terms, it's the insulin, which is a hormone that's released when you eat carbohydrate rich meals that then controls the level of sugar in your blood and deposits in the different places that needs to go, whether it needs to go to the muscle or whether it needs to go to the liver, et cetera.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So I'd love to finish talking about the experiment, about the sort of the personalization aspect of this. You've explained that the different ways in which we grind up these oats has this profound difference. And you've also said that when you wrap it with other sort of healthier foods, which you were describing, and the fats that sort of can slow down the absorption. Why is it though that I am having just a stronger response than you for the same foods? What's going on there and what does that mean about how I should think about what I eat?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So you're firstly having a strong response because we're not eating exactly the same and you're having a meal that is essentially very available carbohydrate that is broken down very quickly into glucose, which is what we're measuring when we talk about blood sugar. But also we're all very individual in terms of our biology, in terms of also how we're living our lives, that all impacts our blood sugar responses. So we know from our own Zoe research that how much we slept last night can impact our blood sugar response. So if you've had a bad night's sleep compared to me, you're likely to have a higher blood sugar response. Your stress levels can impact it. The time of day that you're having it, you can impact it as well as what you take, typically eat, can impact it as well. In addition to that, we know that biological differences, so age, sex, menopause status, genetics, and so many other factors are related to who you are biologically versus who I am. And this is what we've been looking at over the last seven years, Zoe, trying to disentangle all of this so that we can give people the best advice in terms of what to eat best for their health. But I think it's also important to say, Jonathan, that, you know, we often talk about, Zoe, about the importance of blood glucose, but also recognizing that it's one piece of a huge puzzle in terms of how a food impacts our health. So while some of the oats yesterday that you ate caused a blood sugar peak, there are other benefits to oats beyond the blood sugar. So I would say that, yes, for you, it's not the best breakfast because you're going to feel pretty rubbish having, you know, that massive peak, as you said now with your headache. But I would say that there are other benefits that we need to consider that make it perhaps a healthier choice than white bread and honey.

[Jonathan Wolf]

So I'd love to transition to that because I think we talked a lot about the blood sugar because we've had the fun of the, of this experiment. But you're telling me it's not the only thing that matters when we think about the health of oats. So could you talk about what else to think about?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah. So I'd love to take a step back and first look at, is there evidence to show in populations that eating oats are even healthy for us? And there's some fantastic data that's come from what we call the epidemiological studies, which are studies in large populations where they've followed people for a long period of time and looked at, depending on whether people are oat eaters or not oat eaters, whether that affects their risk of disease. And in one such study where they followed more than 500,000 individuals over many years, they found that people who were oat eaters versus those who didn't eat any oats actually had lower rates of type 2 diabetes by about 15% and lower all cause mortality, which basically means risk of dying, and that was by about 20%. Now, obviously, there's lots of other things that might explain some of this. You know, people who eat oats tend to smoke less, et cetera, but you can actually adjust for that in the analysis. You can never find fully disentangle it. So it's not kind of the strongest evidence to pull on, but that gives us an idea that there's something going on there, that there's something about eating oats that might be beneficial for our health. And so the next thing we need to look at is clinical trials. And also, is there a mechanism, is there some kind of rationale why we might be seeing this? And what we know is that oats contain a very special fiber called beta glucan. And this fibre is well known to reduce circulating cholesterol levels. So to reduce total cholesterol, but also reduce ldl, which is our bad cholesterol that we know is linked to heart disease. And there's been lots of clinical trials that have been published showing that if you add oats to a meal or the beta glucan to a meal, that you can significantly reduce people's cholesterol levels. It needs to be about a certain dose. So we know that you need to be having about 3 grams of the beta glucan a day in order to lower your cholesterol. And so the FDA in the US and the efsa, the European Food Standards Agency in the uk, actually have an approved health claim that beta glucan, this fibre that's in oats at 3 grams a day, can reduce your cholesterol and hence is associated with improved heart health. And I think the evidence is quite consistent for that.

[Jonathan Wolf]

The show you're listening to right now that's providing you the latest evidence based health and nutrition information from the world's top scientists. While making it takes a lot of time, we think it's well worth it, all in the name of improving your health. All we ask in return is this. Send a link to this podcast to someone you think would benefit and if you haven't already, click Follow this podcast wherever you're listening right now. Okay, let's get back to the show. If I understand it rightly, what you're saying is that it's the fiber in the oat that is giving you these health benefits. And there's some really good scientific evidence to support the health benefits. And it's not the starchy carbohydrate that you were talking about before. It's just a thing I feel like we come back to over and over again in this podcast. You know, it's sort of, sort of the fiber and the plant part of it, as it were, that's doing this.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah. You know, like with all food there's often a double edged sword and there's components in foods that might be really, really great for us. And there might be another component in the same food that isn't so healthy for us. But this is why we have to look at the food in its totality, which is what we do a lot at, Zoe, rather than looking at individual components. So we need to look at that oat in terms of also who you are. So if you're someone that has this big blood sugar response, that's not going to be the best food for you. For me, I have less of a blood sugar response. If I had slightly elevated cholesterol, then maybe I want to make it part of my daily routine, having some oats in there in order to reduce my cholesterol.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And is the beta glucans the only thing about the oats that's contributing to that health effect?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So we think that beta glucans is one of the main elements that makes oats healthy because of how it can reduce our cholesterol. We know, though, that in addition to how beta glucans impact our cholesterol levels, that they may also reduce our risk of type 2 diabetes. There's quite good evidence to show that if you consume oats, you have lower risk of type 2 diabetes and you have better insulin control, which might seem a little counterintuitive given the experiment that we've just, just done. But the beta glucans that are in oats cause the contents of your stomach and also your intestine to be quite sticky, like gel, like. And we use a term in science called viscosity. So beta glucans increase the viscosity, so the stickiness of its surroundings. So, you know, when you had your irony ground oats today, something that you said to me is, oh, they're really gloopy. And you said it was actually like wallpaper paste, didn't you? Because it's so sticky. That's because it's the beta glucans in the porridge causing this kind of stickiness. And so that's what it does in the stomach, which is why it kind of slows down the gastric emptying. It also does that in your small intestine, and it lines a little bit the surface of your small intestine, so it does slow the absorption of the sugar a little bit. So if you were to compare the breakfast that you had today, although it caused a big blood sugar peak, if you were then to compare it with a matched amount of sugar, you should find that the peak, although high, is actually lower because of the beta glucans. And this is where it gets a little bit interesting because you also said that the breakfast you had today was more gloopy than the breakfast you had yesterday. And that's because the more you grind down the grain, the more of the beta glucan is released. So this is where you get that double edged sword with processing that the way it was processed today, where it's a powder is causing these big peaks in glucose, but you're getting slightly more of the beta glucan. And yet what you had yesterday, you had a lower peak in blood glucose, but you might get slightly less of the beta glucan. So it's kind of like balancing that out a little bit. And this is where personalization, I think, can be really valuable.

[Jonathan Wolf]

You're talking again about the impact of the beta glucan. Is there anything else in the oat that you think that's contributing to these health benefits?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah, so oats are also packed full of B vitamins, of also other minerals like the iron, the magnesium, et cetera. They also have polyphenols. There's a particular type of polyphenol, and I can't remember the name, it's very long, it begins with A. And there is some evidence that this polyphenol has beneficial impacts on blood pressure, on pathways associated with inflammation, oxidative stress, and also has some beneficial impacts on blood vessel function. Now, it's difficult to tease apart where the benefits of oats on heart health is coming from. Is it often the beta glucans or is this polyphenol also impacting that as well? Again, I think it's kind of the whole grain and all of the different components that are having that beneficial effect.

[Jonathan Wolf]

I wanted to come on to another question that we got from our listeners a lot, which is about pesticides in oats. And I think one of the reasons I might have asked it is that we, we did a podcast a while ago about organic foods with Professor Tim Spector, who we both know well, and oats was one of the foods that he talked about in terms of pesticides. So what's the situation and how worried do you think we should be?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So there's a particular pesticide that is used to dry out oats before harvesting so they can be harvested more quickly. It's a chemical called glyphosate. It's also found in common pesticides that you can go and get in your DIY store, like Roundup, for example. And what does is it dries out the grain so you can harvest it more quickly and so you can produce it more quickly. Now, you've got to remember the grain has this outer hull, this kind of shell, so should be a little bit protected from it. But there is some evidence that oats will still absorb some of this pesticide. Oats seem to absorb it more than some of the other whole grains, like wheat, for example. And so there are small levels found in many oats. Now, organic oats rarely contain this because them being organic, this pesticide isn't sprayed. But occasionally you'll find some organic oats that might have tiny, tiny amounts because you know you're getting stuff leached from soil from neighboring fields, for example. There are very strict regulations about the level of glyphosates that are found in food and in odes because there has been a link with cancer. Most of the evidence, though, linking it to cancer comes from kind of cell sort of lab experiments or from animals. The evidence in humans is quite weak. But there is sufficient evidence to set tolerable limits above which we know there is potentially an increased risk of cancer. So there's regulations internationally in the us, in the uk, in Europe, for example, of safe, tolerable upper limits, above which there is a probable association with cancer. So there's some carcinogens, so cancer causing agents that we have great confidence that cause cancer. So alcohol is one of those. So alcohol is classed as a type 1 carcinogen that we know is linked to an increased risk of cancer. Glyphosate is classed as a probable carcinogenic. The levels that are found in most foods are actually quite low. I think unless you are eating oats all day long, day after day, it is almost impossible to reach that safe upper limit. Now, obviously it's going to vary from one farm to the next farm, and so it's difficult to kind of blanket say that they are all safe. But I think that the levels are generally found in food. Based on the evidence that I've seen, based on the random sampling that is published, I don't think it's something we should worry too much about at all. However, if you can buy organic oats, if they're affordable and accessible for you, I would recommend that you choose organic over non organic. But if that's not accessible for you, I think you can still enjoy your porridge or oatmeal without worrying about that too much. As scientists, we always err on the side of caution. So, for example, the tolerable limit that's set for glyphosate is a very cautious limit. It's also a level at which you're very unlikely to reach through normal dietary patterns. I say unlikely, not impossible. It's also a level that is set based on feeding at these like excessive levels to, you know, rats or mice and looking at how cancer may develop. So I think the level is already very cautious. And then I'm adding some caution to that because I think we have to be so careful with areas that we don't yet have the full evidence. And so that's why I'm being over cautious that personally I would happily eat non organic oats if I was having them every day in every meal and I could afford it. Yes, I would choose organic. Why take even a 0.000% risk? But what I wouldn't want people to do who can't afford or it's not accessible for them to have organic. I wouldn't want them to say, okay, scare them off ever having oats.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Thank you. I'd like to go back to one of the questions we had in the quick fire at the beginning.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Because that also came up all the time from our listeners. Is oat milk healthy?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Oh, oat milk. We've done a whole podcast on this, Jonathan, about plant based milk. So I don't know if you remember that. That was about two years ago. Can I say it depends again. So I think it's important to understand quickly what oat milk is. So oat milk typically, and every oat milk variety is different and I know some people make it at home in a very different way. So oat milk typically that we purchase in a supermarket typically contains about 10% oats. Most of the rest of it is water. Now what they do to those oats to stop you having a drink, that's all gloopy, like the wallpaper of paste that we talked about earlier. What they do is they firstly heat up those oats and dissolve them in water and finely, finely grind them. They then add enzymes in to break down the starch, so to break down that carbohydrate, so to break it down into those simple glucose sugar molecules. So what that means is you've got readily accessible sugar in that oats. They also add other ingredients in, like rapeseed oil, other kind of additives and stabilizers, et cetera, to come up with this final product that's essentially mainly water with a little bit of oats that have been degraded and then some of these added ingredients. Now there is evidence to show that oat milk can reduce your cholesterol because it does have the beta glucan in, but you have to drink about two pints or a litre of this to get that required amount of beta glucan that we know can lower cholesterol. But there have been trials, there's been clinical trials that have compared oat milk versus cow's milk. The oat milk, if drank around a litre a day, does significantly reduce your cholesterol, but you're unlikely to ever drink that high amount. Also, you've obviously got this quite accessible sugar in there. You've got these other added ingredients. If you're choosing oat milk for planetary health or for animal welfare reasons, then I think that's a great choice for you. If you're choosing it because you think it's healthy or healthier than cow's milk and you're spending 10 times as much, because often these are 10 times expensive, then I think that the better option personally, is to go for cow's milk.

[Jonathan Wolf]

If I understand rightly, that's because you're saying it's a bit similar to the oatmeal that we just had for breakfast. It's all been smashed up. It sounds like it's already been almost like semi absorbed. So actually, there's a lot of sugar in this drink and when I drink it, it's already very sugary, so it's not quite as healthy as I had in mind. And that's quite different from when I think about just like a traditional cow's milk, which is mainly fat.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah. So I think the problem a little bit with oat milk is it's sold under this kind of health halo, being so good for our health. Yeah. Essentially it's mainly water, so you're paying a lot for the water. The oat that's in there has already been degraded. So, remember we talked about enzymes and how these chemicals break up the starch and the carbohydrate in your stomach and in your intestine down to these simple sugars. They actually add those enzymes in so that it breaks it down already. So you've got this readily accessible carbohydrate, this very rapid sugar, so to say now at the level at which most people will eat this. So, for example, adding it to their tea or in cereal, which is quite low, it's not going to be unhealthy for you, it's more people buying it because they think it's going to be really healthy. I think that's where I would just say a little bit of caution. If you like it, environmental health, planetary health, if you like the taste, if you can afford it, fine, go with it. And just a reminder as well, yes, if you've got high cholesterol, then it might be a better alternative as well. But to have any benefits, you're going to need to be drinking quite a lot and then you've got to weigh up the potential effect that the readily accessible sugar might have.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Thank you so much, Sarah. I think this is all incredibly clear and helpful and a lot of it's been actionable already. But I'd love to maybe finish with helping any of our listeners to understand. Okay, I would like to have oats as part of my diet. How do I figure out how to eat it in a way where I can get the benefits that you're describing, but avoid the terrible downsides that, for example, you've made me experience today. So maybe start with what would the ultimate healthy oatmeal recipe look like?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Okay, so the ultimate healthy oatmeal recipe would firstly include steel cut oats as the foundation or the proper old fashioned large rolled oats that haven't been pre cooked, either of those, but still cut oats would be their preference. Then it would include adding something in. So as though we're all about adding stuff in, not taking it away. So adding in something that's got additional protein, additional fat, healthy fats and potentially additional fibre. So just like I did this morning, depending on your preferences, that could be adding in yoghurt, so you could add in Greek yogurt, kefir, you could add in nuts, seeds, some dried berries. Although they're quite high in sugar, they've also got a great amount of fibre as well. You could add in some of the nut butters that are out there. I mean, that's a great way of packing in fibre, protein, healthy fats.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And if I want to think about cooking this, what's the best way to do it? I know quite a few friends of mine are saying, oh, I really like this, like soaking it overnight, is that good? Does that suddenly make it back like this? Instant oats, how should I think about that versus obviously, you know, one of the big disadvantages and you know, there's a reason why we all switch to microwave, isn't it? Which is that cooking it in the morning takes time. But also like you've got a pan and you know, it's become all gluey.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So I don't actually know if there's been any studies looking at the health effects of overnight oats versus the kind of traditional way we cook in a pan or in a microwave. So I'd be interested actually to know if there has been that research. So I can't tell you which is better in terms of overnight soaked oats or traditionally cooked. What we do know is the kind of rule of thumb, the longer it's taking to cook them, the better it is for your health. So if your porridge or your oatmeal is taking less than say 20 or 15 minutes to cook, it's likely it's going to be of a structure therefore that isn't quite as good for us as if it was like the steel cut oats that take we know 20 minutes or more to cook.

[Jonathan Wolf]

If I took some of those oats you've told me are good, like the steel cut or sort of those jumbo rolled ones, and I did do the overnight oats, would you be worried that now that isn't going to be good for me anymore or are you saying like actually you feel that that would be okay? As part of my diet, yeah.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Based on what I know, I would say that doing the overnight oats would still be good for you. So I would say that it's the type of oats that are important rather than the way that you're cooking them. So if you're taking the steel cut oats, the jumbo rolled oats, and either cooking them on the hob or, you know, you can cook them in the microwave or leaving them overnight as these soaked overnight oats, then based on my knowledge, I would say that they're all gonna give you some health benefits. But it's adding that extra protein and fat on top of them that I think will really balance out the oats as a really good balanced meal that will leave you feeling fuller for longer, balance out your energy, alertness, et cetera. And you are about to yawn. And that's probably because you are now an hour probably post us having the oats earlier and I'd be quite surprised not to start to see a bit of a dip. And this is because you didn't have that balance.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Jonathan, do you know someone who eats oats or someone who's trying to have a healthier breakfast? Why not share this episode with them right now? You'll equip them with the latest scientific advice to help them make better food choices. And I'm sure they'll thank you. So I imagine that a lot of listeners are saying, I really want to make sure I pick the right oatmeal, the right oats tomorrow. Can you help them when they're looking on the label? I guess Partly what is good, but also what the sort of things to look out for that would make you realise it wasn't.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So look to see if it's steel cut. These are a lot more difficult to find in the UK in your typical supermarkets than they are in the us, but you should be able to find them in many of the kind of whole food stores or some of the smaller retailers. If you can't find them, go for the rolled oats. Some people might not like the steel cut ones either because they are, you know, slightly chunkier. Go for the rolled oats. Make sure you look at the back of pack labelling to also look at how long it says they're going to take to cook. The longer they're going to take to cook, we believe that they're likely to be more healthy for us. Also check they haven't got loads of added ingredients. So some of the kind of individual sachets that you can get that you can cook as well as having the oats. And therefore the benefits of the oats also unfortunately have lots of other stuff added in like added sugar, added flavours etc.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And Sarah, how many ingredients should there be in a packet of oats?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

There should be one that's easy, oats. So just look for that. You know, the breakfast we had earlier, as well as having the oats, it also had that oat flour as well and it had lots of other ingredients.

[Jonathan Wolf]

I think that's really clear. We also had a lot of questions about whether oats are gluten free.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

So oats are gluten free. The only thing to watch out for is some manufacturers will say that the oats are processed in a factory that might also process ingredients that do contain gluten. So not all will give a gluten free guarantee, but oats per se are gluten free.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And then final question, if you're like me and your blood sugar control is really poor, you listen to all of this and you're like, well, I'm still, I'm not going to make this like something I'm having every day in my diet because I'm very conscious about that impact that I've seen with oats compared to quite a lot of other foods. Are there any alternatives to oats that you feel is still going to give a lot of those health benefits?

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah, so there's lots of options. We have loads of ideas. Also on our Instagram page at Zoe with different alternatives as well. We've actually done a whole article on our blog on different alternatives for Oats for breakfast. One great idea, it's really simple, is chia seeds. Soak them overnight in either a yogurt or milk of your preference. And then in the morning you can layer on whatever you want, just like we did with the oats day. You can layer on nut butters, seeds, berries, et cetera.

[Jonathan Wolf]

And the chia seed is also something that's really good for me.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Absolutely. Packed with fibre loads of great health benefits from chia seeds. So you'll get, get all the benefits and you won't get the downside of the blood sugar peaks that you have.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Amazing. So I think my takeaway, actually, my takeaway from this episode overall is I'm definitely going to try some oats in my diet again because I think my takeaway from this experiment is that if I was having these steel cut oats as a part of a meal, right. So not just like this massive ball of steel cut oats, which I know is still going to cause me a problem, but actually there's a part mixed in like you have done with a lot of the things I tend to eat then actually I don't think it's going to cause the sort of problem. And even my experiment myself yesterday, with the classic oatmeal on the stove, I was struck that it was a lot less of a spike than I'd expected because I was used to what we've sort of tried this morning. And on the other hand, I'm not about to start saying, oh, I should have oats every morning. And I think I'm also struck, Sarah, that even with your good blood sugar control and even with all the things that you put on top of that oatmeal this morning, you actually manage to get pretty amazing amount of blood sugar response, which does show that when it is sort of smashed up, it does get into your blood really fast. Right. And so this thing that you often talk to me about, about how much the complexity of the food, you know, your famous food matrix, like how much that really affects your blood sugar is amazing.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Yeah. And you know, I've learned something from doing this experiment as well, because I stopped eating porridge probably about 30 years ago because I would feel so hungry within an hour or so and I'd feel quite rubbish as well within an hour or so. And it was really interesting yesterday when I had the porridge that was this old fashioned porridge, you know, the rolled oat porridge and had all of these other bits added to it, actually how good I felt and how full I felt for longer so I've now, through doing this experiment, gained an extra breakfast in my breakfast repertoire. But I won't be having these ground oats for sure.

[Jonathan Wolf]

That does seem to be the takeaway. And in fact, talking about takeaway, I'm gonna try and do a quick summary. My biggest takeaway today is that instant oats are not our friend. I have spent most of this podcast with a headache, which is not usual, and I managed to spike my blood sugar up to like 11, which is remarkable. And my learning is there's this huge difference between the types of oat. And so instant at one end is like almost just like eating sugar. But then I can go to rolled, which is much better, and steel cut, which is the best. And so if I'm going to go out and buy this from the supermarket, I'd like to try and get steel cut oats if I can. And the next best is this sort of large pre rolled oats that if I look on the back of the pack, actually I want the thing that says the longest cooking time, that is also telling me that this is much more like the original food. And I want there to be one ingredient, oats. I've also learned that there's really strong scientific evidence to say that oats can support your health. And you said there was a study of I think half a million people and that the people who are eating oats had a lower risk of dying, which I like. So I like the idea of putting a little bit of oats into my diet. You said there's a lot of good things in the food. And as always, we should be careful of people who say there's just like one ingredient that causes the health. And so you're saying the beta glucan is part of it, but probably not all of it. And we have to be really careful. Cause you need to eat. I think you said 3 grams of that a day to get the benefit. And so I think my other big takeaway was oat milk is not in fact as healthy as I had thought it was because you need to drink two pints of oat milk a day to get that benefit that you talk about. And actually the oat milk itself is very processed, so it's like it's being chopped down. It's been broken down with these chemicals. And so you said, you know, there are good reasons you might want to do it for environmental reasons or animal welfare reasons. But actually in terms of health, you're not saying it's bad, but you're not saying it's actually better than cow's milk. And then finally we talked about the pesticides and I think your takeaway was you were not personally very worried about it. If you can afford it, yes, you would go and choose the organic oats because of the way that it tends to be higher in these pesticides than most other grains. But if you couldn't afford it, that wouldn't be for you a reason not to take oats.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Correct.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Brilliant. Well, I really enjoyed that, particularly the fact that now I'm finished and I can now eat some other food that will hopefully balance me out. I really enjoyed this thing being made science made real. And I hope a few listeners also enjoyed seeing one of the world's leading nutritional scientists actually talk us through a real live experiment here on the podcast.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

I loved it. And Jonathan, I'd love to invite you to come to my lab for one of our next podcasts so we can actually do some of the experiments that we've talked about before. You'll have to be the guinea pig. It's not going to be as easy as just eating porridge though. We'll be taking blood, looking at your poo, looking at your spit, all sorts.

[Jonathan Wolf]

The things I do for Zoe, Sarah, it would be a pleasure.

[Professor Sarah Berry]

Great. I'm going to hold you to that.

[Jonathan Wolf]

Yeah, I'll be there. Thank you. Now, if you listen to the show regularly, you already believe that changing how you eat can transform your health. But you can only do so much with general advice from a weekly podcast. If you want to feel much better now and be on the path to live many more healthy years, you need something more. And that's why more than 100,000 members trust Zoe each day to help them make the smartest food choices. Combining our world leading science with your Zoe test results, Zoe is your daily companion to better health for life. So how does it work? Zoe membership starts with at home testing to understand your unique body. Then Zoe's app is your health coach. Using weekly check ins and daily guidance to help you shift your food choices to steadily improve your health. I rely on Zoe's advice every day and truly it has transformed how I feel. Will you give Zoe a try? The first step is easy. Take our free quiz to find out what Zoe membership could do for you, Simply go to Zoe.com podcast where as a podcast listener, you'll get 10% off. As always, I'm your host, Jonathan Wolf. Zoe Science and Nutrition is produced by Julie Pinero, Sam Durham and Richard Willett. The Zoe Science and Nutrition Podcast is not medical advice and if you have any medical concerns, please consult your doctor. See you next time.