← 10% Happier with Dan Harris
10% Happier with Dan Harris
Brené Brown On: How To Succeed Without Being a Bullying, Bullshitting, Power-Hungry Jerk Face
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A toolkit for navigating your fears, finding your “core,” and having sovereignty over your nervous system. is a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at the Graduate...
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A
Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details. AT&T Connecting Changes Everything. It's the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.
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Foreign.
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A
Hello everybody. How we doing? If you look around today too often the exemplars of success and status and power are bullying, blustering bullshitters. But actually it is possible to succeed without being an in fact, I would argue you're more likely to succeed and that the success will be even more delicious if you're doing it with and now I'm going to use some cliches, but if you're doing it with integrity and with values, my guest today is going to talk about how to take these sometimes anodyne or boring terms like integrity, values, et cetera, and operationalize them in ways that will give you confidence and boost your odds of success. However you define success. To be clear, when I use the word success, I'm using the word not only professionally, but also personally. Again, how you define success is up to you, but I think, and my guest thinks, that it is best achieved with a calm nervous system. Or, as my guest says, in a state where you have sovereignty over your nervous system. Said guest is Brene Brown. I'm sure you've heard of her. She's huge. She's a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work. Brene is also the author of six number one New York Times bestsellers and she's the host of two award winning podcasts. She's got a new book out. It's called Strong Ground and it's all about how to move through life from a position of maximal strength. In this conversation we talk about the inspiration for her new book. It involves a fateful game of pickleball. You'll hear her explain that we talk about the importance of building a strong core rather than operating from a place of dysfunction or fear. We talk about nervous system management, the above the line, slash below the line framework. I've been thinking a lot about this. She'll explain it, but it's extremely helpful. How language acts acts as an indicator light for our emotions. In other words, if you're mindful of how you're talking, you can learn a lot about how you actually feel. The role of values, as I mentioned earlier, how to understand them, how to figure out what yours are and how to put them to work in your own life. Something called Common Enemy Intimacy and the urge to shit talk, how to build your capacity for paradoxical thinking, which she calls an elite skill, and much more. Let me just say this is our final week and final episode of our Reset series. Every week this September, we've been talking about how to reset one aspect of your life. This week it's about resetting your relationship to change uncertainty and the future. In other words, how to move with some degree of grace through a chaotic world. Shout out to the great Eleanor Vasily, who architected this series. Thank you, Eleanor. She's one of our ace producers. I also want to say that today's episode comes with a custom guided meditation from our Teacher of the month. Vinnie Ferraro said meditation is all about how to stay cal in chaos. As Vinnie says, meditation is not about escaping chaos, it's about remembering where your ground is, even in the middle of a shit show. He didn't say shit show. I. I added that. But he does. He does have a potty mouth, which I do like about him. As you may know, our custom meditations are only for paid subscribers over on danharris.com paid subscribers also get weekly live video meditation and Q and A sessions every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. I'm doing the next one solo, but sometimes I do them with our Teacher of the Month. A heads up. Our Teacher of the Month for October will be my close friend Sebaneselassi. And by the way, if you want to meditate with me and Seb in person, we're doing our annual meditation party retreat at the Omega Institute over the weekend of October 24th. I'll put a link in the show notes. Okay, we'll get started with Brene Brown right after this. You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? That's what ATT is doing. With the ATT guarantee, Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Because staying connected isn't optional, it's essential. And AT and T wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes everything. Imagine you're a business owner who has to rely on a dozen different software programs to run your company, none of which are connected. And each one is more expensive and more complicated than the last. This can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need, and they're all connected on one simple, easy to use platform, giving you the peace of mind that your business is always being taken care of from every angle. Odoo has user friendly open source applications for everything. We're talking CRM, accounting, inventory, manufacturing, marketing, HR and everything in between. Basically, if your business needs it, Odoo's got it. Odoo sounds pretty amazing, right? So stop wasting your time and money on those expensive and disconnected platforms and let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. It doesn't get much better than that. So what are you waiting for? Discover how Odoo can take your business to the next level by visiting odoo.com that's o d o o.com, odoo modern management Made simple. Brene Brown, welcome back to the show.
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B
I'm excited to be here. I always leave our conversations stumped by something I do.
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A
I don't know how to take that because I say something incomprehensible.
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B
No. But normally something fairly provocative. For me, I mean, it's. Yeah. So for me.
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A
Well, I will say that you, you are consistently our like, most popular guests. So I'm really grateful to you for coming back. Thank you.
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B
Well, thanks. I'm excited to be here and I'm excited to see where we go because it's always a mystery.
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A
We'll see. I'm going to start in an obvious place though, because there is a story behind your most recent book. And the origin story of the book is that you had a pickleball injury. And I didn't know you could get hurt playing pickleball, which I think of as like just a larger version of ping pong. But fill me in.
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B
You know what? I was a really snobby tennis player. I played tennis for probably 30 years and it took me maybe three years to try pickleball. Cause I was like, no, I don't do that. No. And then it took me 30 minutes to become completely addicted and three months to join 14 different pickleball places so I could play. I'm an absolute addict. I love it so much. I think for me, it's a pretty physical game. It's not as physical, of course, as tennis, but it's a faster game and it's a lot of lateral movement. And you know, I just didn't think that really at 59, which I love being. Cause like, who would have guessed I would have made it this far? Not me. I, I'm super competitive. I play in advanced league. And who would have thought that I'd get to be really competitive at a sport again? I was playing, what is today? It was like three or four, probably Friday, I guess, of last week. And I was playing open play in kind of an advanced level. And I was playing with this 30 year old kid and I said, dude, lock in. And he said, he's like, it's pickleball, it's fun. I said, lock in. It's fun when we win. And then we, we won, we came back and won like 11, 7 or something. And I said, do you want to stack together? And he goes, no, you're kind of scary. I was like, this shit I don't need. So I was playing pickleball and I got hurt. I love the first line of the new book. It's my favorite first line of any book I've written. That is. Riders should have to request a permit if they want to use the word writhe. Because I always used writhe metaphorically, like I was writhing in uncertainty. No, if you've never writhed in pain, like, you should not be using this word because I, I was like on the ground for half an hour.
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A
Wow.
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B
They finally got me to my car. I thought I'd been stabbed. Like, I couldn't breathe. I was seeing stars, like on a Tom and Jerry cartoon. And it was like, of course, humiliating. I got to the car and finally three weeks later, I could make it to a trainer that everyone recommended. They're like, he's really tough, but he's great. I was thinking, oh, this man's gonna be no match for me because I haven't met a trainer that I can't, I can't distract with something that'll get me out of a lunge or something. This guy was not to be distracted. And he looked at me and he. We did this test and he said he was a functional strength training guy. His name is Tony. And he said, you scored a 10 on your test. And I was like, hell yeah, I did. Let's go, let's lift some heavy shit. And he goes, out of 22. It means you have. Yeah, it means you have no core and you're absolutely prone to being injured. And I think your injury is a compensatory injury. And I was like, what does that mean? And he's like, you really literally have no core. So you're using inefficient muscle groups in your arms and legs and your back in place of the big muscle groups. Like Your lats and your stomach and your glutes that you should be using. And it was humbling to say the least. But somewhere in the first couple of months of us working together, he looked at me one day, and I said, I just don't think I have lats. I think maybe I'm missing them. I can't find them. Cause I was doing, like, a lat pull down. And. And I was like, this is killing my neck and my shoulder. And he's like, you're not supposed to be using your neck and your shoulder. Find your lats. And he always called me brown. Find your lats, Brown. And then he looked at me and he said. He looked down. He said, find the ground. And I said, I see the floor. Like, what the hell do you want from me? And he said, find your ground. And he said, move away from the machine. He said, find the ground. And I said, I don't. I don't know what he just kept saying. He said, I want you to use your mind and your body to find the ground. I couldn't wait to talk to you about this. Cause it was a really big unlock for me. Because in all the work I've done with a therapist, a coach, I've had to do a lot of embodiment work. Because I'm told all the time that I live in my head. And it's true that I'd rather think my way through something than feel my way through something. But in this case, he said, use your mind and your body. Body and find the ground. And he said, I want you in an athletic stance, like you're getting ready to receive a serve from someone that hits the ball really fricking hard. So I kind of just got an athletic stance. And he said, I want you to feel the ground through the bottom of your feet. And then I kind of stood up, and I'm like, I'm here. He took both of his hands and gave me a push on my shoulders, and I fell over backwards. And he said, you haven't found the ground. Find the goddamn ground. And I was like, okay. So I got an athletic stance. And this time I used my mind and kind of talked to my body and said, push in. Find the ground. And he kind of gave me a push again, and I didn't move. And he's like, there's your ground. And so he's like, let's go back. And he said, I want you to use your mind and your body to find the ground. And then I want you to recruit the right muscles. For this job, use your mind to talk to your body. And for some reason, that minute I just said, come on, Brene. Strong ground, strong ground. And I found it. I found it. When I started throwing, like, you know, the medicine ball against the wall, I could just. I understood what it meant to be fully connected to the ground and how it felt like such a source of strength. And the more I worked out with him and the more he would say things to me like, the ground is your source. You know, stability, agility, balance. Also explosive action. And then you take my life outside of the gym, and I am working 60 hours a week inside of organizations with CEOs and their direct reports on these kind of skill set and mindset transformations. And it just hit me one day that Tony's rule was, we don't build on dysfunction. You're not going to move heavy shit because you think that's cool. We're going to figure out what's going on with your body. You're going to ground in. You're going to find your ground, and then we build on function. And I thought, oh, my God. Every organization that I'm working with right now is building on top of dysfunction. No one's tethered. No one is standing in strong ground. And organizations and teams need to find a way to build their core and stop using inefficient muscle groups to try to do really deep thinking, deep connecting, and deeply human work. A metaphor was born, Dan. That's it.
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A
Well, I love it. I mean, it's the controlling idea, the controlling metaphor for the book. It's reflected in the title. I guess the natural question, which we'll explore over the course of this interview, is how do you translate that into a life, an individual life, and, yeah, the life of a. A collective organism, be it a corporation or a nonprofit or a family. And that's really what the book's all about and what this conversation will be about. Does that all sit well with you?
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B
It does. I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense because, you know, I have a pretty. I think people are surprised when they find out kind of how I spend my days. You know, I think people have a vision of me that's very separate than from leadership and organizational development work. And so I'll get off a call and someone on my team will say, how was the call? And I said it was. It's really tough, you know, trying to make some big decisions, trying to help this, this kind of senior leadership team think through localizing supply chains because of the tariff issues right now. And my team will look at me and they'll think, did we miss the part where you became a supply chain consultant? And I said no, because I'm not a supply chain consultant. What I'm listening for is how is what you're trying to do driven by, by scarcity and fear versus kind of what I would call above the line thinking around creativity and wholeness and how is it going to impact people. So when I think about work and I think about leadership, I always tell myself people are people are people and systems are systems, whether it's a family system, an organizational system, a team system. I think because I have such deep training in systems theory as a social worker, there's not very much that I learn from, you know, being inside an organization that I can't apply as a parent or a partner. It's like well connected, seen, heard and well respected. People are unstoppable. When you use fear to lead to partner to parent, it brings out the absolute worst in us. And it's hard not to be afraid today, all day, every day. And so I think whether I'm inside an organization or I'm talking to my family in general, I don't think people are okay right now. I think people are dysregulated, distrusting and disconnected. And so it was funny because the going to translate the work into kind of our everyday being. And then on the other side, I just was talking to a COO of a company that we're doing work with and he's like, it's interesting that you're talking about the nervous system in a business book. And I said, you should sit in one of your meetings and observe it as not a member. Like Nervous system management is a very big deal right now in every aspect of our lives. Overwhelm, huge issue right now, whether you're at work or at home. People are people are people.
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A
Yeah, sometimes. Think you could change the title of the human resources department to the Nervous System Management Department.
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B
I think that's really interesting that you say that because I probably would have agreed with that more five years ago than I would today. Where I think today part of liberation in my mind, paradoxically, is connection to other people for sure, but also a sense of deep agency around our bodies and our nervous systems and our attention. And I'm not so sure that that's anyone else's job. And I'm not sure that I would farm it out to anybody. So I would love for human resources and other leaders to create cultures and environments where I don't have to protect my nervous system every day. But if and when I do, I would hope that everybody could do that on their own. Because to be able to have some sovereignty around our nervous systems is such a superpower. And when you watch people do it, there's such resistance to it. But when I see it, man, I just respect it. I'm in awe of it. And we've really. In our organization, we've adopted some very serious practices around it. It's become the systems in which we work that are as predictable as payroll.
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A
Can you say something about those practices? I'd love to dig in on that.
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B
Yeah. I think one of the. And I'm still like, I wrote this book. It feels like 10 minutes ago. So I'm still gonna go. It really does. It's. It. Random House said, this book is for right now, so we're gonna make it happen right now. Which was not good for my nervous system, actually, or anyone's that works on the book. But I think I want to get this attribution right. So can I tell a story about it, please? Have you ever had that thing where you wish you would have never said that something changed your life? So you could talk about how much something changed your life, and everybody would be like, oh, man, she never says anything changed her life. So this really was without hyperbole and exaggeration. The woman that got on this call with my coach was not the woman who hung up on this call. Like, it changed the way I lead. It fundamentally reorganized my marriage to my husband. And we've been together, if you count dating almost 40 years. We have two kids in their 20s. It's changed how I parent them, and they use it now. So I got on the phone with my coach, Courtney, and I'll keep the language clean. But I was just like, don't keep it clean. Okay, great. I was like, fuck. I was such an asshole in this meeting. What is wrong with me? Like, there's times I show up as a leader where I know that I need to pull everyone back together and apologize for how I showed up and own it and be accountable. But I was such an asshole that I don't ever want to see these people again. Like, this is. I don't know what's happening. And she said, tell me about what happened. I said, this happened and this happened. And I said, this. And then they said this. And then people put their heads down, and I got more intense. And she said, it sounds like you were really under the line. And I said, what do you Mean. And she said, there's a concept that's very powerful from coaching. And we call it above the line or below the line behavior. Below the line. Leadership, just in general, anywhere. I said, well, what's the line? And she said, fear. And she said, when we operate from below the line, we fall into the drama triangle. So that's Stephen Cartman's work. So below the line we take on roles that are usually one of three. Hero, victim, or villain. And immediately I was like, shut. And she said, let's talk about some of your language from the meeting. Fuck it, I'll do it myself. No one gets how hard this is on me. I don't care if I'm the bad guy right there. Screw it, I'll do it myself. Hero. No one understands how hard this is on me. Victim. And I don't give a shit if I'm the bad guy. Villain. And I was like, oh, my God. And I said, what does it mean to be on top of the line? And she said, there's nothing wrong with fear. And you can be in fear. And when you're in fear and you name it and you're driving, you're above the line. And when you're above the line, you go into David Emerald's kind of empowerment triad, which is coach, challenger, creative. So tell me more. Let's walk through this. This is not my experience of this. Help me understand. So I was like, okay, so below the line. When I've recognized that I'm taking on this hero shit, Victim, villain, I'm below the line. When I can stay in a place where I know I'm in fear, but I can stay above the line enough to stay into kind of coaching behaviors, challenging behaviors. Like, let me ask some questions about that. I don't think I'm tracking. Have we thought through this, like productive challenge or creative co creating. So I want to give you the right attribution for this because it's a wild attribution story. So it comes out of rich dad, poor dad.
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A
I don't know what that is.
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B
It's a book and I've got it. Like, I don't have my readers with me, but I wanna make sure. Robert Kiyosaki, I would say it's a finance wisdom book. And then Carolyn Taylor wrote the book Walking the Talk, and she really introduced it to the coaching community. Then it was in the book Conscious Leadership, which kind of really blew up. And so what happens in my organization now happened this morning on a zoom call with my leadership team. Someone I checked in with the person, I said, you're being quiet. And she said, I'm so far under the line right now. And I said, okay, let's circle back in 10 minutes so everybody's got off. And we actually said, let's give it 30 minutes. And we got back on. And we always start the timeout with, tell us how you got under the line. And the answer is usually really tough. And so in this case, she said, you made a comment like, oh, when we get this shit done. And this shit that you're referring to has been 100% of my time and my team's time for four months. And it felt so dismissive. And I'm eating, drinking, and breathing this task, and it felt hard. And I said, that would have felt hard for me too. I appreciate you sharing how you got under the line. I apologize. And then we moved on. I mean, I can tell you that two days ago I was talking to my husband. I said, I texted my son. I haven't heard back yet. Oh, God, you know what? This is ridiculous. Like, you know, like, if you want to be treated like an adult, you got to text like an adult. He just looked at me and I said, I'm under the line, right? And he goes, yeah, it's easy to get there, though. I. I get it. And I said, okay, I am under the line. Why are you scared? I don't know. It's just. I loved having him home all summer and now he's back in school and feels lonely a little bit. And he's like, yeah, we had 100 fishing trips this summer and it feels. It's hard. I said, it is. And I said, it's pretty okay for a 20 year old not to text you back within 30 minutes, but I'm under the line. I don't know. I can't tell you, really, Dan. Like, when I work with leaders, what they say to me, I didn't develop this. I'm just the. I just share it and help people think through it, what it means to people. Like, I was talking to a senior vice president and he shared this in front of the entire. His entire cohort of leaders. One hundred and something leaders in a huge company. I just asked the whole group, I said, what kind of tools are you putting in practice and how's it working? What's landing, what's sucking? And one of the most stoic kind of top leaders said, I was giving feedback to direct report, and I just stopped in the middle and said, I'm under the line. This is not productive. And the guy was giving feedback, said, I am so far under the line, I've missed the last 10 minutes of this conversation. And he said, I really appreciate it. Can we step away from this for a couple of hours and come back? He said, yeah, like we're just human, you know? And I think to have language that says, I'm in some fear and I'm not driving right now. Fear has got the wheel. I'm not even riding shotgun. I'm tied up in the trunk right now. I'm just along for the ride at this point. And I gave some examples in the book. I shared my personal examples, which was somewhat humbling, of the language I use when I'm under the line. My hero is always, I'll do it myself. Hmm. My victim is no one understands. And my villain is really, I don't give a shit what you think. This is how we're gonna do it. Like, I go full on bad guy. And sometimes, as someone who studies, you know, metacognition and self awareness, I would say that sometimes my language, I know that I'm in fear by what I'm saying before I know what I'm feeling. So when I recognize that drama triangle language, I'm like, oh, I'm scared right now. Does that make sense?
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A
Yeah, it's like the. Well, it kind of goes back to what you were saying before about having trouble finding your ground initially with your trainer. For you, the sort of interception or somatic awareness isn't going to be the most salient thing. It's going to be what's coming out of your mouth. And that's kind of the mindfulness bell for you.
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B
It is. And so when I see myself, like, oh, I'm embarrassed to say, but it's. It's deeply human and flawed. Yeah. And that's me. Deeply human and flawed. Hi, my name is Brene. I'm deeply human and flawed. Hello, Brene. But every now and then when I can see myself, like, my veins sticking out in my neck and I'm saying something like, we're packing parachutes here. 90% is not good enough. Do you want to jump out of a plane where the excellent rate is 90% for packing parachutes? Then I'm like, oh, my God. I'm like Michael from the office, like doing. But I can be scary when I'm scared.
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A
Coming up, Brene Brown talks about how to put the below slash above the line practice into work in your own life and relationships. And why paradox is an elite level skill. I chose function because it's the only health platform that gives me data most people never get and the insights to start doing something about it. Inside Function you get access to test over a hundred biomarkers, from hormones to toxins to markers of heart health, inflammation and stress. I went through the process with Function. I I mentioned some of it. I went and got a couple of blood tests and then over the ensuing weeks I could see my results come in. And then I got a really interesting summary written by the folks over AT Function and I learned a lot. In particular, there was just one data point on there about my ferritin levels or iron levels, which may have something to do with my restlessness at night that I'm eager to chase down with my doctor. Also, some heart health stuff that I've had many conversations with my wife about. Really interesting Aging well is not just about looking younger. It's about keeping the systems that matter most in peak condition. For your cardiovascular system, that means tracking key markers that give insight into heart health, like hscrp, which is a signal of systemic inflammation that can accelerate arterial damage. Maintaining these within optimal ranges helps protect heart function and promote healthy aging. For the musculoskeletal system, indicators like bone mineral density and muscle mass, influenced by key nutrients such as vitamin D and magnesium, which support strong bones and muscle function, help lay the foundation for strength and mobility. Hormones influence how aging unfolds. Men tend to lose muscle mass gradually, as mentioned, testosterone declines. Women may experience a sharp drop in estrogen during menopause, accelerating bone loss and raising cardiovascular risk. Tracking the right biomarkers gives you a personal map for protecting your health, system by system, decade after decade. I've gotten a lot out of it. It might be something you want to check out. Learn more and join. Using my Link Function is a near 360 view to see what's happening in your body, and my first 1000 listeners get a $100 credit to toward their membership. Visit www.functionhealth.com happier or use the gift code Happier100@signup to own your health. You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? That's what ATT is doing with the AT and T guarantee, Staying connected matters. That's why AT and T has connectivity you can depend on or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT and T guarantee. Because staying connected isn't optional, it's essential, and AT and T wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guaranty for details at&t connecting changes everything. I just love that you're open about your flaws and failures and foibles. And I just relate to many of the things you're describing yourself. I can interpolate back to my own behaviors as a leader and can cringe and hopefully laugh at them and myself. Let me just dig in a little bit on the above slash, below the line practice very practically so I can see how it works within an organization. That seems very clear. You just get in the habit of it's a shared language and you get in the habit of calling it out in yourself and inquiring about it in others. What about for an individual? How do I make this a part of my life? How do you make it a part of your life to use this as a kind of guiding heuristic?
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B
I mean, at work, it's a system we put in place that is kind of a collective capability. At home, we've also built it into a system. So I think about James Clear. We don't rise to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our systems. And I think inside of my family system, inside my friend's system, I work with both my sisters, which is one of the most amazing and sometimes hard things in the whole world. We all do a lot of therapy and one of the sisters is a therapist, which is a real pain in the ass on occasion. She's like, do you have feelings about that? And I'm like, oh, God, fuck off. Okay, no, I don't, I do, but I don't want to talk to them about you, with you. But I think I use it the same way at home. I listen for the language of hero, victim and villain. I really listen for that language. And to me, I think it's become part of my marriage lexicon. Like, it wouldn't be unusual for me to say, well, what about this? And Steve's like, no, dude, you know what? Not now. And not in an hour. Maybe in four. I'm so under the line right now. We're not talking about this right now. I cannot talk about this right now. Like, it's a way for us to say, I'm not in a co creating, coaching, challenging space. Fear is driving right now. This is not going to be helpful. And so to me, I just look for the same language. The topic might change, but I am scary when I'm. I can be scary when I'm scared at home and I can be scary when I'm scared at work. I just, I look for that language.
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A
It sounds like you look for that language in yourself and in others as a sort of mindfulness technique to figure out when you're in the toilet of fear.
- [34:28]
B
Yeah, I don't think I look for it as much in others because I don't know that I would be as keen in recognizing. It's interesting because I think about writing Atlas of the Heart, which is a book really about emotional granularity, emotional awareness. And so we went through kind of this long research process to figure out what are the emotions you need to be able to name and identify and talk about. And in that research, I got really deep into neuro linguistics and how language doesn't just communicate emotion, it actually impacts and influences emotion. So I think I have become very aware of what my language is telling me about my feelings, which is not my deepest level of self awareness. Like what you said, the somatic response to my emotion is not. I haven't thought about to this moment. So I have to try this on to see if it even makes sense. But I always think about people in the triad of emotion, cognition and behavior. So thinking, feeling and doing. But I'm starting to understand the power of something else that maybe you would slide under cognition or thinking, but maybe you would put under. I don't know where it belongs actually. But language to me is, you know how you have engine problems in your car and your indicator light goes off? Language is my indicator light. And I'll tell you one of the things like as you're talking about reset. When we were researching stress and overwhelm and how they're the same and how they're different, I was shocked by what I learned. So stress is kind of this feeling of whack a mole. Things are popping up very quickly and I'm on top of it, but I probably can't sustain it for very long. That stress overwhelm. Jon Kabat Zinn's definition, I think is the best. The world is unfolding faster than my nervous system can manage. And I love his work because, you know, he learned about mindfulness and he learned about overwhelm at mit and his applications were so thoughtful around how humans work. And one of the things that he proposes is that one of the only cures for overwhelm is nothingness. So when I was doing that research and looking at studies, what I really started to understand is if you are stressed and you say, God, I'm so overwhelmed, your body and your nervous system says, oh, we're overwhelmed and we just stop functioning, as opposed to labeling it correctly. So the Way I talk about the language and neuro linguistics is if you love nothing more in your life than my chocolate chip cookies. And you came to my house and said, hey, Brene, will you make me a batch of your chocolate chip cookies? And I said, absolutely. And I followed my recipe to the tea, and you tasted, and they're like, oh, God, they're delicious. But they're not exactly. And I said, well, everything's the same. I just used a different bowl. That's the power. Language has the ability to change the ingredients of how we feel. So now one of my mindfulness practices, which has really been amazing for me, is if I use the word overwhelm, I am personally disciplined and committed to stop whatever I'm doing for 10 or 15 minutes and walk the parking lot, get on the treadmill, meditate. I don't really meditate. I'm more of a contemplative prayer person. So I do a lot of contemplative prayer. But if I'm going to say I'm overwhelmed, then I am going to acknowledge that the only way back is nothingness. So I'm very careful when I use that word. And so the story I told in Atlas of the Heart was I waited tables for, like, eight years and bartended. And there's a saying in restaurants that you're in the weeds. Like, if you and I were waiting tables together, I'd say, hey, Dan, I'm in the weeds. Can you take tea to table 34 and drop some bread off at table 35 for me? And you get in the weeds four or five times a night on a busy night in a restaurant. There's another term that in eight or nine years of bartending and waiting tables, I've only used maybe once or twice. And that is when you walk into the kitchen and the door swings closed behind you, and you look at the line manager who actually runs a restaurant. The line manager of a kitchen always runs a restaurant, and you look at that person and you say, I am blown. I've probably done it twice in a decade of doing that work. And the protocol where I worked when you say I'm blown is it's literally like an emergency drill. Someone takes your order book, they call a hostess. The hostess comes back and says she's got table 35, 36, 37, and a big top on 38. And you have to leave the restaurant for 15 minutes. You can go into the cooler, or I was a smoker, or you can go outside in the parking lot, and it's like they understood neuro linguistics 20 years ago. And so this for me, ties to above the line and below the line in the sense that I'm looking for the language that tells me I'm not. Okay.
- [40:32]
A
Yeah.
- [40:33]
B
Does that make sense?
- [40:34]
A
It makes complete sense. And I think it's really something that anybody listening can operationalize. This is trying to be mindful of the language you're using because it's not only telling other people something, it's really telling you something. And if you're mindful of it, you can take effective action to, as you said before, have some sort of sovereignty over your nervous system.
- [40:58]
B
Yeah. Let me tell you the gift and curse of midlife. That shit's going to win. Your nervous system's gonna win. It is. Undefeated nervous system takes the W every time.
- [41:13]
A
Meaning when you were younger, it was easier to override.
- [41:19]
B
When you're younger, I think your body is more resilient, probably. And so the gift of midlife is you're going to get very strong messages around how you are taking or not taking care of your nervous system. Insomnia, addiction, sleeplessness, just not functioning. I mean, getting hurt. For me, strong ground wasn't just about finding my lats and my glutes and my core, you know, it was also about what I want to be firmly planted in, like really just pushing down into are my values and how I want to show up in the world and how I want to be the person that walks in a room that brings calm and perspective, you know, not fear and anxiety. Because we know that anxiety is one of the most contagious affects of all human affects. Some people who study anxiety would argue that it's never. Anxiety is never a function of individuals, that it's always a function of groups. Because of the contagion factor. I don't think they're wrong.
- [42:28]
A
It tracks for me. Okay, so. But you, you just used a word that has come up repeatedly in this month of programming we're doing around resetting, and that is values. And I've. I historically have had something of a allergy to the term, in part because a lot of religious right figures used it in, you know, in my younger days as a reporter, family values, et cetera, et cetera. And in part because it just seemed sort of anodyne. I didn't know what it meant, but I've become convinced that it's actually extremely compelling and extremely useful. So could you talk about what you mean by values and then how we can learn what ours are and turn them into solid ground?
- [43:15]
B
Yes. And so what I would say to you is, let me just take a deep breath. I'm staying above the line in real time.
- [43:25]
A
Am I driving you below the line? No.
- [43:28]
B
The conversation about how the term is used and how people throw the words around, so.
- [43:32]
A
Oh, I see.
- [43:33]
B
Yeah. Is just. It's really tough. Okay. So I think values are guiding principles. What we have found in our work is that leaders who develop teams that are defined by discipline, trust, accountability, caring. The things we really want to see in high performance, respectful, accountable teams. What we learned from that research that started about 15 years ago and has been validated for the last 15 years, and all the data we've collected is they can really point to one or two values, but not more than that, that they really hold onto as guiding principles. And so when we take people through a values exercise, we'll give them a list of maybe, I don't know, 70 values. And we'll ask them, we'll start a process where they're trying to define what their one or two core values are. And there's a lot of resistance because they're like, I don't want one or two. There's 20 things on this list that speak to me. No one wants to skip family. Everyone wants to circle family. Everyone, you know. And so we say, you know, circle 15 or 20. But in the end, I want you to think about everything you've circled. I want you to ask yourself one question. What are the one or two values that you hold sacred? Because they are the place where everything else that's circled is forged in your essence. These are the two things where, how you treat your family, how you show up for your family, how you prioritize your family, this is forged, you know, and so people get there and it's a very shocking experience for a ton of folks, I'd say it's one of the big things that we do in our work and the courage building work. And for me, like my two values are courage and faith, then the next step is where it gets really hard. And this is why values can be such a bullshit conversation. I want you to operationalize those into what observable behaviors fall under these and what observable behaviors do not fall under these. So when we go into organizations, over the last, I don't know, eight years, we've taken 160,000 people through Dare to Lead. It's a courage building program. 45 countries, of the number of organizations I've been In, fewer than 10% of the organizations have operationalized their values into measurable observable behaviors. So they'll have integrity and they'll put that shit on a poster and hang it in the break room. Always an eagle. What does it mean? You know, like. Like, you know, fly fast and pick up vermin with your feet. I don't think that's probably what they mean. So what do they mean? So, like, in our organization, integrity is a value, but we define it. One, we don't talk about people, we talk to people. Two, we create meetings and time and space for everyone to speak. Therefore, we do not have meetings outside of the meeting. These are what we expect from you. We give feedback directly to the person using examples in a coaching. You know, like, we're. We're very specific. You either do them or you don't. Here's why. I think when you're talking about like the far right use of the word values or you're talking about organizations who do not operationalize values, here's why values gets and deserves a bad rap. People don't want to operationalize them into actual behaviors and ways of being because that introduces accountability. So let's say you're the CEO of an organization and you say, you know, the values for this company for the last 50 years have been these five things. And now under my leadership, we're going to operationalize those into behaviors. And I don't care how much revenue you bring in for this company. If you're not acting in a way that's aligned with the values of what it means to work here, you don't get to work here no matter how much you bring in. Well, that's a rarity. So sometimes better left, not operationalized. Does that make sense?
- [47:55]
A
It does make sense.
- [47:56]
B
Yeah. And the same thing for politicians. Better left, not operationalized. You know, I can tell you for sure, like, as a Christian, I'm like, I don't know. When you're talking about, like, you are pissing Jesus off here, folks like you is very clear. Operationalize those values. What you're doing here is espousing bullshit. So I think approaching values with. I don't like cynicism because I think cynicism is kind of a form of armor. In my experience, skepticism and curiosity is important because values not operationalized with no accountability mechanism is just nothing. Better not to have them.
- [48:44]
A
How do we go about figuring out what our values are and then making sure that we're actually living them?
- [48:52]
B
We have a values exercise on the website that you can just download. It's got the list of values and you can follow it through. We ask really interesting questions, I think, that are actually in some ways somatic in nature. So we ask people to write down and share a time where they were fully in their values and what that felt like for them, what the context was, what decisions they made. Was it comfortable or uncomfortable how they felt? Afterwards, we asked them to do the same thing. What comes up for you and your body when you're misaligned, when you're not aligned with your values? So for me, you would've been a really good Catholic priest. Cause I feel like I'm in confession, but I think it's the voice and the face.
- [49:35]
A
I dressed as a priest for Halloween in college once, which was probably a cancelable offense.
- [49:42]
B
Straight to hell, dude.
- [49:43]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [49:44]
B
Probably see you there. I think for me, I know that I'm outside of my biggest indicator light. And it is like an ooga ooga light is resentment. When I am not practicing my values of courage and faith, I get into deep, deep resentment. So I can take you on that long trail. But, like, I've been sober for too many Christmas, 28 years. One of my favorite parts of the Big Book, the a big Book, is talking about the gift of sobriety being the gift of neutrality. You're neither running toward the thing you want the most, nor are you running away from it. You just have a sense of peace and about it. And they outline the condition for neutrality in the Big Book, and it's that you have to be in fit spiritual condition. So when I think about faith as one of my values, if I am not in fit spiritual condition, I am not practicing my value of faith. So for me, that means it's a high bar. It means eat well, sleep well, move well, love well, connect well. And so I find when I am overworking, not eating food that makes me feel good and strong, not sleeping enough, not connecting with the people I love the most, then I am outside of my values. I'm not in fit spiritual condition. And it's taken me 20 years of practice around this to get it right. And I don't have it right. No, no, no, Let me. Let me. Like, you can leave it in here. Then you can watch me, like, anxiously change it. It's taken me 20 years not to totally fuck it up right, which is a far thing from getting it right. But I'm getting better at it. I see now that in order to live into my value of faith, I have to be in fit spiritual condition. That means I have to really watch moving well, eating well, living well, loving well, connecting well.
- [52:02]
A
Let me Try something. I'm always listening for what? What can a listener do right now after they finish this conversation or if they. Even if they pause it. And yeah, so I'm gonna try to. I'm gonna say something and you tell me if I'm right or if I'm close or you just correct me, whatever part of it or all of it. But. So if values are really important, and I agree with you on this, figuring out exactly what your values are, that's a very individual thing. And we should go to Brene's website and I'll put a link in the show notes to use Brene's system. But one useful. I'm going to use this fancy word that I'm probably not even using correctly. Heuristic here is like the body as barometer. The body, if you're tuned into it, can tell you what behaviors, what mindsets feel good and conversely, which feel bad. And that can direct me toward my values. It can also tell me when I'm living outside of them. And in order to be attuned to this, you need to take care of yourself so that you've got some sort of spiritual fitness or mental clarity or what the Buddhists would call Sampajana. Anyway. Is that okay as a rough summary?
- [53:14]
B
That's great. I mean, I think it's. That summary I think you don't need. Again, it's a free PDF and you can download it if you just want to get a list of values to start working from and some questions to think about. But I think understanding the one or two deeply important essence of who you are, values. The only thing I would change just. And I wouldn't have changed it before our conversation, but I'd probably change it now. It's just clunky. I would say values that are operationalized and where you're holding yourself accountable, those are important values alone, just words.
- [53:54]
A
Yeah.
- [53:55]
B
Values minus discipline and accountability really mean nothing. And they're actually weaponized to your point earlier. And that also is part of my faith. You know, faith without works, values without operationalizing just doesn't work for me at all. And, and I think everybody listening right now, if they thought about it, if you just got really still and thought of a time where you were operating outside of your value, what did that feel like for you? Like, it's a queasy, terrible. I mean, how do you feel, Dan? Well, like, if you're operating outside, if you, if you find yourself going, shit, I am so far outside of what is right for me right now, you know, how does it feel?
- [54:37]
A
Sucking chest wound? Yeah. You know, like, it just feels totally like I've been hit by a truck. And I feel shame, too, at the same time.
- [54:50]
B
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that was really interesting in my coaching, because I have a coach and I have a therapist. I actually have two leadership coaches and a therapist. But one of the things that I thought was really interesting is I was operating outside of my values around something. I didn't recognize it because I wasn't being outside of my integrity or unethical. So I didn't have that shamey feeling. But how it showed up for me was absolute Mack truck exhaustion. Like I had been run over by a Mack truck. And my coach said she really helped me understand that, like, there can be operating outside of your integrity or what you think is morally right or wrong, but there can also just be operating outside of your values, which can still be ethical and moral. It just sucks your energy. So one of the things I'm looking for in my life right now is what gives me energy and what depletes me. And often what gives me energy is not just aligned with kind of how I think of my purpose, but also how I think of my values, you know? And so there's a whole spectrum of bodily feelings I can get when I'm outside of my values that can range from just, am I helping someone out of generosity and loving kindness or out of perception management and guilt? Tell me what that laugh means. That was a scary laugh.
- [56:30]
A
It's. It shouldn't be scary. It was a laugh of rueful recognition.
- [56:35]
B
Full recognition.
- [56:36]
A
Because I've done the exact same thing.
- [56:39]
B
Yeah. And so when I'm helping someone out of generosity and loving kindness, it can be really hard. But it's energy giving when I'm helping someone, because I think the only value I bring in our relationship is being the helper and the fixer and the handler of all things. Then that sucks me dry, and I will end up in resentment. And that's not a good. That's not a good look for me. That is like. I don't remember who said the quote. Resentment is drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. I am not a good per. No one's good in resentment. But I think I'm particularly. I know just enough about myself for it not to be fun.
- [57:21]
A
Yep.
- [57:22]
B
You know, if I find myself talking about somebody or being critical, I can't even enjoy it anymore. Sucks. Do you know what I mean?
- [57:32]
A
I do. I'm just, you know, as I often do When I'm listening to just interpolating back through my life and thinking about those exact moments where I've done those exact things. And I think talking about somebody is one of those moments where I recognize I'm not living my values same. And yet it's so seductive.
- [57:51]
B
Well, yeah, because it's. Oh, it's so seductive. Because you know what we call it in our work? We call it common enemy intimacy.
- [57:59]
A
Yeah, there we go.
- [58:00]
B
Yeah. And it's such a political vibe right now too. It's like, I don't know you. I'm not gonna invest time getting to know you. But dude, we hate the same people. So good enough for me. But then if I happen to disagree with you on something, it's over. So I think we talk bad about people with other people to hotwire connection. And I get it. It's just any kind of relationship that's built on that is counterfeit at best. But I think it's so hard because it's such a. I'm so good at it. Really? I said that? Seriously? Cause I actually thought about it. I'm really good at it. I can be funny and shitty and sarcastic. I had a therapist one time, tell me. Because sarcasm is a. Is a real family of origin thing. And we, we all. We feel like we've done our work in our family when we move from sarcasm to shit talking. Shit talking, we're never gonna let that go. So that's. That's our peak performance thing. But she told me, I just wanna remind you that the root of the word sarcasm in Greek is to tear flesh. Just know that you come from a family where when it's over, someone's crying, and that's not fun. So we've just taken to shit talking. Like, you know, when we play cards or dominoes or, you know, we're big sports people, so that's as good as we're gonna get this time around. I feel like when I can look at my kids and say, look, I moved the football down the field 10 yards. You can take it from here. I got you. From sarcasm to shit talking.
- [59:41]
A
I want to just make a distinction because when you're talking about shit talking among the Brown family.
- [59:46]
B
Yeah.
- [59:47]
A
You're talking about gentle ribbing, not talking about somebody else who's not in the room.
- [59:51]
B
Oh, no, no, no, no. Because one of our. One of our things is we don't talk about people. We talk to people.
- [59:56]
A
Yes.
- [59:57]
B
And it's such a bummer. It sucks.
- [60:01]
A
But when I said talking earlier, I meant trashing Somebody who wasn't in the room. And I feel outside of my values.
- [60:07]
B
Yes.
- [60:07]
A
But talking, like making fun of somebody, that is my love language and I will never drop that.
- [60:13]
B
Yeah, same like we, I, my sisters again. Both of them work with me. One's a therapist, and one of them sent me a meme the other day that said, you're my sister and I love you. When you fall, I will always be there to pick you up right after I laugh, you know? Yeah, so. Oh, yeah. So different kinds. I think talking about we can be really not pious, but one of us will say to the other on occasion, oh, man, this is nothing. This is like a pig in shit. I love this. Let's talk about her bad or I wonder if we should just take a deep breath and not do that. It sounds like you need to have a conversation with somebody. And then I'll be like, you know what? You're right. And fuck you. And then they'll say, yeah, fuck you too. Love you. Love you too. That would be a Brown sister call. You'd fit right in.
- [61:05]
A
No, I love that. I love that. I don't know if I can keep up with you guys, but I love it coming up much more with Renee Brown. You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? That's what ATT is doing. With the ATT guarantee, staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Because staying connected isn't optional, it's essential. And AT&T wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com attention guarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes everything. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliate. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. All right, a couple more things I want to touch on before I let you go, before we run out of time here.
- [62:36]
B
Sure.
- [62:36]
A
So, just to reset, we've been talking about the theme of strong ground. And we've talked about some ways to be on strong ground in our lives, like achieving some degree of sovereignty over our nervous system through the above or below the line practice. Then we talked about the role of values as a sort of act of courage and a way to stay solid and grounded as we Move through the world. The other thing or another thing you talk about in the book is paradox. What do you mean by paradox? And why is it so important? She's rubbing her hands together, people.
- [63:12]
B
Just so you know, I am rubbing my. I mean, yeah. I mean, it was so funny because when I told Ben, my editor, the subtitle is gonna say the Tenacity of Paradox, and he's like, no, it's not. And I said, no, it really is. I mean, this is like book seven, so it's gonna say that, you know, and he's like, oh, my God, are you saying the tenacity of paradox? Because you write about paradox in every single book. And I said yes and no. And he's like, okay, you're such a smart ass. I really can't. I can't. I can't handle it. I spent most of 2024 and 2025 in these kind of weird rooms with tech leaders and kind of cultural people just watching and listening. And one of the things that I noticed that they had in common was a deep, deep capacity for paradoxical thinking, for the ability to stay away from this kind of dualistic either or hold two ideas that are seemingly opposing and straddle that tension long enough for something incredible to emerge, something different, a different way of thinking about things. And it was interesting to me. This is part of a bigger conversation that would take us in on a crazy thing, but it was interesting to me to see where we're losing ground in terms of reading and thinking and liberal arts education, where we're losing ground in that area. An elite few are doubling down in those areas. It's like when they asked Steve Jobs, I bet your kids love the iPad. And they said, there's no technology in our house. We talk about art and history, you know, and it's like part of the reason I wrote this book and went into this mega chapter around kind of the skill sets I think we should be thinking about for the future, including paradox, is I'm seeing this not so subtle shift around a very few people developing really complex deep thinking skills and then looking at the rest of us and saying, don't worry your pretty little head about this kind of stuff. Just keep scrolling. You know, And I think it starts to me with paradox. It starts with, you know, I think about my friend Jim Collins, who wrote From Good to Great. And I think about how he talks about the tyranny of the OR and the genius of the. And. And how we're able to just. From like, in an organizational perspective, just Give you some examples. Purpose and profit, freedom and responsibility, discipline and creativity. And so for me, Carl Jung said, the paradox is the greatest spiritual gift of people. And it's the only thing that comes anywhere close to capturing what it means to be human. You know, and in very simple terms, there's small moments where my kids might come home, you know, when they were in fourth or fifth grade and say, you know, I hate my teacher. She was so mean to me today. And I would say, you know, yesterday you talked about how much you really cared for her and liked her. Well, I did, but she was mean today. And then to have a conversation of, can both things be true? Can we care for someone deeply and also in a moment that we're not proud of, treat them in a way that doesn't reflect how much we care about them? Have you ever done that? And my kids would say, yeah, I have done that. When I got invited to the popular table, I didn't save a seat for my friend. But you care about her, right? You love her? Actually, yes. And you did something kind of crappy. Yes, both things can be true. You know, now we need to reconcile that and maybe we need to have a conversation. But I mean, raise your hand if you've never been an asshole to someone you love. Like, we have all done that. This paradox, and the one I talk about in the book for me has been really actually costly to me personally and to the team that I lead, which is my desperate need for unfindability. Like I can look down at my calendar and see my entire life until I die scheduled in 30 minute increments. And I think it's why I'm a swimmer, because it's like the self, the self deprivation, whatever, that the chamber where no one can touch you, you can't, no one can call me when I'm in the pool swimming laps. You know, I fear one day that I'm going to be coming in for like a flip turn. I'm going to look up and my team's going to be standing there. Hey, in which case I'm just gonna. I don't know what I'll do. I'll probably say, hey, what's up? I probably won't do anything dramatic, but I think for me, I've spent the last five years reconciling the paradox of discipline and freedom, that when I leave getting my hair cut or highlighted and the person at the front desk says, would you like to schedule your next appointment? And I go, hell no, baby, I'm living free. It's a nightmare. Because what's gonna happen predictably in six weeks, I'm gonna call, crying, beg for the person to make, you know, okay, Saturday or Sunday, can I come at 4 in the morning? You know, and it's like, and don't put stuff on my calendar. Cause I don't like the way it feels. And then I schedule shit on top of it. Then I've got two things to do. What I'm starting to learn in the prime of my youth is how to straddle the tension of discipline and freedom. And to put my pickleball schedule on my calendar. To put my meditation and prayer on my calendar and not go into 5 year old under the line, Brene. Where I'm like, if I had to schedule my meditation, I mean, what up is that? Well, if it's important, you'll be disciplined in making sure you have time to do it right. And it's not like some productivity scheme. It's just I want to do things and I want time for myself and I have to be more disciplined. So to me, one of my favorite leadership paradoxes from James March, who was at Stanford, and he said leadership is poetry and plumbing. You have to be able to cast a vision that's so poetic that people are inspired by it and want to do it. Then you have to build systems that are operationally excellent enough to deliver against that vision. And everyone wants to go to work and be the poet, but it's equal parts poetry and plumbing. So I think this whole idea about both things can be true. Like right now, Steve and I are in a new season in our lives because we're empty nesters for the first time and it's so wild. And I told him the other day, like, I'm kind of having fun with you and I miss the kids. No, I'm not having fun with you, actually. I really just miss the kids. And he's like, okay, miss. Both things can be true. And I said, I guess both things will be true. It's like, hi, I'm Brene, nice to meet you. We met when we were lifeguarding 38 years ago, you know, in coaching, swimming. And I still cry every now and then when I walk by my kids rooms, you know, but both things are true and it's okay. And I'm big enough to hold all that, you know. And I am a very paradoxical person, which people don't like about me in many ways. Like, people have a hard time reconciling the fact that, you know, I grew up hunting still Love to shoot. Skeet fishing is my favorite thing to do. I'm a massive football fan. I identify. I mean, I don't know that I would say I'm a Christian. I'm episcopalpaician, which I think is a code word for something else, like maybe progressive Christian as well as code word. And I'm also pretty very progressive in my politics. And people are like, you have to choose whether you're progressive in your politics or you like to go tubing. And I'm like, no, like, I'm not gonna do that. You have to choose between, you know, believing these things about bodily autonomy and racism and homophobia. You have to choose between those and feeling like you're a patriot. No, I actually don't. You may need me to, but I got plenty of room in here for both those things. I wouldn't be doing my job as a patriot if I wasn't pissed off right now. So I don't think neurobiologically, just to be really frank with you, I don't think we are neurobiologically hardwired for paradox. Our brain is wired to get to clarity and certainty and sacrifice almost anything it needs to to get there very quickly. And I'm not the only complex person. I just happen to be a public complex person at times, which I don't love. But we're all complex, you know, and if you listed everything down, people would say, well, this doesn't make sense. Why are you over here in this column? How can you teach your son to shoot skeet and be radically pro gun reform? Well, if you have five minutes, I can explain it to you.
- [73:13]
A
Can you just say a little bit more about why you think paradox is such an elite level skill? Especially as we head into a world where intelligence increasingly may be, you know, something that we farm out to machines?
- [73:29]
B
Yes, I can talk about that. But before we do it, what is the sign off that you use on your social posts and stuff and your peace? It's like one of my favorite things about you. Because that is very paradoxical, right?
- [73:44]
A
Yes, it is paradoxical. Yes, you're right.
- [73:46]
B
Right. And honestly, that's who we are. It is such a crazy thing to understand how deeply human paradox is, but how difficult it is for us. And one of the things that I would say for me is I can't move into non dualistic thinking or non binary thinking when I'm under the line and when I'm afraid. When I'm under the line and when I'm afraid, I just want straightforward Linear dualistic thinking. And that's where we are right now, politically, spiritually, economically. You know, we're so afraid right now that anything that brings complexity with us that really, like, if you're listening, you can't see me, but I'm holding, like, two fists up, and I'm, like, creating tension between the two. So I'm, like, almost shaking, like, to hold the tension. A paradox right now. When we're exhausted and overwhelmed, we have to have a fully operating nervous system to do that kind of work. And so, to get to your question, I mean, personally, I believe that income inequality and greed are absolutely at the root of a lot of the pain and trauma that we're experiencing today collectively as a nation and a world. I mean, I just think. I think that is in the top one or two, along with probably very, very deeply embedded patriarchal and racist people just don't want to do the work of interrogation and ownership where we need to do it. And interestingly, I think the paradox is very blustery. People presenting themselves as super brave and masculine when they're scared of everything. That feels uncomfortable. Like, to me, what does courage look like to me? Courage looks like to me is turning around, looking pain in the eye and saying, yeah, this is our history. Yeah, Unacceptable, painful, violent. And we will know better and we will do better, and we will start by owning it. That's, to me, what courage looks like. Not running from it because it makes us uncomfortable. I think when we talk about the haves and have nots, one of the things that I'm seeing in addition to wealth is thinking and learning. And it's interesting because it doesn't surprise me that some were arguing that education is a pillar of democracy, while others are saying it's unimportant. And I think that's gonna serve a bunch of people who are exercising power over right now. But I think there have been two and a half times in my life where I have felt I have quit doing something. And when I quit, I felt so disoriented, I had a hard time getting out of bed. One was when I got sober was so disorienting for me. I thought it was gonna bring clarity, but it just brought, like, I don't know who I am. I don't even know. I don't know what's important to me. I don't know if I fucking like Jethro Tull, like, the dude I'm dating likes it. But I don't know. Like, you know, am I. Do I like the cowbell? I'M not sure where I fall on this. You know, it was disorienting to me. The second was when I got off social media for a year recently. Disorienting. Like I don't even know what I think about some of these issues. I know what I'm supposed to think and I know where I'm punished for thinking the wrong thing, but I don't know really who I am and what I believe the halftime was. I did a three month intensive AI project and when it was over, I felt hollowed out like the same way drinking and social media left me feeling. And so what I would say is this is a really the reset that you're talking about, I think is foundational. What I hope we explore after the reset is how do we become more interested and more active in deep learning, deep connection and deep thinking and what's getting in our way and who benefits by that?
- [78:04]
A
Let me just say in closing, I really appreciate you making time to do this and you know, not to gas you up too much, but I, I look up to you and admire you. So it's always great to talk to you.
- [78:13]
B
Well, you know what, I feel the same way and I was really excited about the invitation, so thank you. I think the universe puts your stuff in front of me right when I need it. And I appreciate what you're doing. It almost feels subversive, which is exact. It really does. It almost feels what you're doing is subversive while acknowledging our somewhat burly humanity, which is my favorite part of it.
- [78:39]
A
I appreciate you.
- [78:41]
B
Thank you.
- [78:44]
A
Thanks again to Renee. I'll put some links to our past interviews with Brene in the show notes. Don't forget, today's episode comes with a custom guided meditation from our Teacher of the month, Vinnie Ferraro. The meditation is all about how to stay calm in the middle of chaos. It's only for paid subscribers over on danharris.com paying subscribers now also get weekly live guided meditation and Q and A sessions on video every Tuesday for Eastern. The next One is on September 30th. I'll be doing that one by myself, although sometimes I do it with the Teacher of the Month. Also, if you want to meditate with me in person, I've got a weekend long event coming up at the Omega Institute the weekend of October 24th. Link in the show notes. Finally, thank you as always to everybody who works so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.