The Science Of Walking: The Benefits Of Walking In Nature, Walking Meetings, And Walking Meditation | Dacher Keltner

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Science Of Walking: The Benefits Of Walking In Nature, Walking Meetings, And Walking Meditation | Dacher Keltner"

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of 10% Happier with Dan Harris, host Dan Harris engages in a profound discussion with Dacher Keltner, a renowned Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley. With over 200 scientific publications and six influential books, including Born to Be Good and Awe, Keltner brings deep insights into the multifaceted benefits of walking. This episode delves into various forms of walking—walking in nature, walking meetings, and walking meditation—and explores the scientific underpinnings that make walking a powerful tool for enhancing mental and physical well-being.

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1. Walking in Nature and Awe Walks [03:07 - 07:36]

Definition and Concept of Awe Walks

Keltner introduces the concept of awe walks, a practice designed to infuse regular walking with moments of wonder and amazement. Collaborating with Virginia Stern from UC San Francisco, Keltner developed structured instructions to elevate a person's walking experience. These instructions encourage walkers to:

• Adopt a Meditative State: Slow breathing and synchronize footsteps to foster mindfulness.
• Seek Awe: Venture off the usual path to encounter something extraordinary, such as a unique garden or a breathtaking sky view.
• Engage in Detail-Oriented Observation: Focus on small elements like the veins on a leaf before expanding attention to the broader environment.

Scientific Findings

In an eight-week study involving participants aged 75 and older, those who practiced awe walks reported:

• Increased Feelings of Kindness and Compassion
• Reduced Distress and Physical Pain

Keltner highlights an intriguing observation where participants' selfies became less self-focused over time, symbolizing a diminished sense of ego and a greater connection to the universe.

Notable Quote:

Dacher Keltner [03:43]: "This tells us, and I know you're a great champion of this, which is, let's think practically, right? Let's take something we ordinarily do, walking and let's find a little bit of awe. And it actually has benefits in doing that."

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2. Awe as a Trainable Skill [07:36 - 09:00]

Keltner addresses common misconceptions about awe, emphasizing that it is a skill rather than a once-in-a-lifetime mystical experience. He argues that:

• Awe Enhances Over Time: Regular practice deepens the experience, much like expertise in any other field.
• Accessibility of Awe: Awe is not confined to privileged individuals; it can be experienced by anyone, irrespective of their socio-economic status.

Notable Quote:

Dacher Keltner [07:43]: "It is a mental practice. And you know, when you talk to people who feel a lot of awe in a domain about wines or baseball statistics, they will agree with you. You know, aficionados like man, the more I learn about this, the more I learn about clouds, the more beautiful they become."

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3. Mind-Body Unity and the Vagus Nerve [09:00 - 11:38]

The conversation shifts to the interconnectedness of the mind and body, challenging the traditional Cartesian dualism. Keltner explains how practices like awe walks activate the vagus nerve, which:

• Reduces Stress Response: Promotes relaxation and lowers anxiety.
• Enhances Emotional Well-being: Facilitates feelings of kindness and gratitude by releasing dopamine.

He underscores the importance of recognizing the unity of mind and body, illustrating how physiological changes during walking mediate emotional and cognitive benefits.

Notable Quote:

Dan Harris [09:47]: "And that really does speak to a unity."

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4. General Benefits of Walking [11:38 - 13:14]

Keltner elaborates on the comprehensive benefits of walking, even without the deliberate practice of awe:

• Physical Health: Improves heart health, boosts the immune system, and increases life expectancy.
• Cognitive Enhancements: Enhances concentration, memory, and problem-solving abilities.
• Emotional Stability: Alleviates anxiety and promotes overall mental well-being.

He references studies showing that walking in natural environments amplifies these benefits, making it a potent practice for individuals across various age groups.

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5. Step Counting and Personal Practices [13:14 - 17:39]

The discussion turns to the practice of step counting, a common habit among many. Keltner shares his personal approach:

• Daily Steps: Averages between 9,000 to 10,000 steps.
• Ritualizing Walks: Incorporates rituals into his walks, such as touching a tree to honor his deceased brother, fostering a deeper emotional connection to the activity.
• Mindful Awareness: Mentions the influence of writers like Rebecca Solnit, who advocate treating walking as a fundamental state of consciousness.

Notable Quote:

Dacher Keltner [15:41]: "Walking can very quickly become a kind of ritual, a repeated pattern of behavior that has some significance to you."

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6. Walking Meetings and Productivity [17:39 - 22:27]

Harris shares his practice of conducting walking meetings to enhance productivity and focus. Keltner supports this approach, citing:

• Enhanced Attention and Problem-Solving: Walking can lead to better concentration and innovative thinking.
• Physiological Benefits: Walking induces a state of relaxation and reduces stress, even if the cognitive focus is on work-related topics.

He references historical figures like Charles Darwin, who found inspiration during his daily walks, reinforcing the idea that movement can fuel intellectual breakthroughs.

Notable Quote:

Dacher Keltner [22:27]: "Walking very often is social and we're walking with other people and we know from science, we synchronize, we suddenly are getting out of the narrow individual self to more."

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7. Walking Meditation [22:27 - 33:22]

The episode culminates with an in-depth exploration of walking meditation, a practice that integrates mindfulness with the physical act of walking.

Keltner's Perspective and Practices:

• Personal Practice: Syncs breathing with steps (e.g., four steps per inhale, six steps per exhale) and conducts body scans to heighten sensory awareness.
• Philosophical Insights: Emphasizes the interconnectedness of all actions and thoughts with the broader universe, fostering a sense of awe and unity.
• Educational Implementation: Shares experiences of guiding students through walking meditation, highlighting its transformative impact on their awareness and attitudes.

Dan Harris's Approach:

• Insomnia Relief: Utilizes walking meditation before bed to combat restlessness and establish a peaceful transition to sleep.
• Structured Phrases: Incorporates specific mantras such as "there is a body," "what's the attitude in the mind right now?" and "this is nature" to anchor his meditation practice.

Notable Quotes:

Dan Harris [26:56]: "Every thought we have, no matter how embarrassing and seemingly bespoke or idiosyncratic, is an expression of the universe."

Dacher Keltner [30:59]: "I was just like, this is nature, right? This is humanity. Like, this is what we are. We have 700,000 unhoused. We got to work on it."

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Conclusion

This episode of 10% Happier masterfully intertwines scientific research with practical applications, illustrating how different forms of walking can significantly enhance both mental and physical health. From awe walks that cultivate compassion and reduce distress to walking meditations that foster deep mindfulness and unity with nature, Keltner provides a comprehensive understanding of walking as a multifaceted tool for personal growth and well-being. Listeners are encouraged to integrate these practices into their daily lives to experience the profound benefits of mindful movement.

Further Resources:

• Books by Dacher Keltner:

  • Born to Be Good
  • The Power Paradox
  • Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life

• Podcast:

  • The Science of Happiness by Dacher Keltner

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Note: For those interested in exploring more about walking meditation and the benefits of walking, checking out Dacher Keltner's books and podcast is highly recommended.

Transcript

[Dan Harris]

It's the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? We're going to talk about something so obvious, but so incredibly powerful. Walking in many forms. Walking in nature, of course, but also doing walking meetings, something I've been getting into quite deeply recently, and also walking meditation, of which I'm a huge, huge fan. We're taking this deep dive into the science of walking with my man Dacher Keltner, who's a professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and has written over 200 scientific publications as well as six books, including Born to Be Good, which had a huge impact on me personally, the Power Paradox and Awe. He also hosts a podcast of his own called the Science of Happiness. We talk about the practice of awe walks. That's a term he came up with and has done some research on how walking can help your concentration, performance and anxiety levels, among many other things. And lastly, we talk about walking meditation. We discuss the science, and then I'm going to talk in reasonably granular detail about how I personally practice. Just to say this is the third in a three part series of mini episodes we're doing focused on the benefits of spending time outside. You do not have to have heard the previous two installments to follow along for this one, but if you do want to check them out, I've put links in the show notes. In episode one, Dacher and I go through the long list of health benefits from nature and then in episode two, we talk about how to access all of those benefits, even if you don't live in nature. Before we get into it though, I want to take a moment to thank our friends over at Columbia Sportswear for sponsoring today's episode. As somebody who has become a recent convert to spending time outside, I know how challenging it can be when the cold weather hits and we find ourselves stuck inside more often than not. But the team at Columbia Sportswear is changing that. They're making gear that keeps you cozy and comfortable, whether you're taking on a tough hike or just strolling to grab your morning coffee. Their innovative fabrics and thoughtful designs like their Omni Heat Infinity jackets allow you to stay active and enjoy the great outdoors. This high performance jacket uses advanced thermal reflective technology to provide excellent warmth and insulation so you can stay out there and keep moving no matter how cold it gets. Because the good folks over at Colombia sent me some jackets. I've been wearing this stuff, including my Omni Heat Infinity jacket, which has really been helpful at my son's outdoor flag football practices, which Gets super cold. Makes me think about that Norwegian expression. I'm probably going to mangle it. But it's something like, there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing. Having clothing, like the stuff they make over at Columbia, that allows me to get outside even when the weather sucks, is super helpful and really good for my whole system. Okay, here we go now with Dacher Keltner. Dacher Keltner, welcome back to the show.

[Dacher Keltner]

It's good to be with you, Dan.

[Dan Harris]

We're in part three of our adventure where we're talking about the benefits of nature. And today we're going to talk about walking specifically, and we're going to broaden it a little bit because we're going to talk about walking in nature, but also just walking generally. Well, let's start, though, with walking in nature. And you have this tool that you talk about called an awe walk, and I wonder if you could define it for me and then also talk about what kind of evidence you've found as a result of looking at this in, you know, populations.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Thank you.

[Dacher Keltner]

It's a study that I'm very proud of and happy to see its effect in the world. A lot of people walk. It's a very important part of exercise for different age groups. It's a great tradition in contemplative, spiritual traditions around the world just to get out and walk. And as I started to do this science of awe and knowing of all of its benefits of it's good for your immune system and your heart and your concentration and how you get along with others, I thought about, with Virginia Stern, this collaborator at UC San Francisco, can we add layers of awe to a person's regular walk? And so what we did is we built in certain instructions that we tested scientifically, and they include getting into kind of a quiet, meditative state as you walk, with slowing the breathing and syncing up your footsteps and kind of being aware of the footsteps. We encourage people on their regular walk to find a place out of their ordinary path that might bring them a little bit of wonder and awe. Right. And so it might be to go down a different street and to look at the neighbor's garden, or it might be to go up to an elevation and look at the sky, change colors. So they sort of sought out a little bit of wonder and surprise. And then we encourage them. And this is one of my favorite parts, and it comes from kind of the cognitive science of awe, which is we ask them to really look at small things, to really focus in detail at what they're looking at. And then to move out and pan out, right, and look at what's vast. So you would look at the leaves on the ground and the individual veins on the leaves. And then you pan out and look at the pattern of leaves on the sidewalk you're walking on, right? From small to vast. Look at one cloud, then many clouds, one flower, a whole pattern of flowers. And really to build that into their way of attending to the environment as they went on this walk. And what we found, Dan, was really cool, which is we had people who are 75 years old or older participate in the study. At that age, your body is just more sore and you're a little bit more anxious about things and your friends are getting too old. And they either in this study went on their regular awe walk for once a week, or they went on a vigorous walk. And while they're out on the walk, they took a picture of themselves, they took a selfie. And what we found is going on the awe walk led people to feel, over time, more awe. So the more we practice this, the richer it gets. Over the eight weeks of the study, they felt more kindness and compassion. Over the eight weeks of the study, they felt less distress, less pain in their bodies, which is very good news as you get older. And I love this finding, which is in our AWA condition. The photos they took of themselves, the self gets smaller and starts to drift off to the side of the photo. And, you know, I'm going to get a little John Lennon on you here again. It's like I'm part of the universe or I'm nothing or, you know, I'm dissolving into the whole, you know, phenomenal field. But that's cool that the selfie becomes less self focused, which is very fitting with the awe science. And it just tells us, and I know you're a great champion of this, which is, let's think practically, right? Let's take something we ordinarily do, walking and let's find a little bit of awe. And it actually has benefits in doing that.

[Dan Harris]

There are a couple of things I'm keying in on there. In your excellent description of this practice and its benefits, I believe you said something about how you kind of get better at feeling awe the more you go like, awe is a skill.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, it's so important, you know, and when I talk about awe, I get two objections, which is like, all right, you're going to tell me to start doing it and you're going to ruin it forever. Because the more I do it, the less powerful it is. And the second is this is just for privileged people. Both of those ideas are wrong. Right. Money has very little to do with awe. Research shows. And importantly, it's a skill. It is not a mystical experience that once you seek it out, it's ruined. Rather, it's a mental practice. Right. And you know, when you talk to people who feel a lot of awe in a domain about wines or baseball statistics, they will agree with you. You know, aficionados like man, the more I learn about this, the more I learn about clouds, the more beautiful they become. And that's what happened in our awe walk study. The more they practiced seeking awe and finding it on a weekly walk, the deeper the awe became.

[Dan Harris]

You also talked about how pain went down.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Do we have any sense of why that would be or how that works?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, it's correlational evidence, but it tended to relate to the amount of kindness they felt and pro social emotion, kindness and gratitude. And what we know about kindness and gratitude, and this is why science is beneficial, which is that those states activate the vagus nerve. They reduce the stress response. Those states tend to activate dopamine, prosocial states like kindness, all of those physiological changes make the body less susceptible to pain and less susceptible to daily stresses. Right. This awe walk is getting us into this loving kindness mindset, if you will. And you're just above the pain of life, which is good news for many.

[Dan Harris]

You're getting me thinking about a conversation I had here on the. On the show recently with Ellen Langer, the Harvard psychologist who is the pistol. And she was saying that instead of the mind body connection, we should just be calling it mind body unity because the connection connotes some sort of separation in the first place. And it's so amazing that how you can increase dopamine and other healthy and helpful neurotransmitters in the mind and somehow physical pain can go down. And that really does speak to a unity.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah. And, you know, thank you for bringing this up. The Cartesian distinction between mind and body. And you know, you see it in Judeo Christian thought and Western European analytical thought. It doesn't make sense neuroanatomically. The great example is the vagus nerve. And the vagus nerve, which we study, this large bundle of nerves that goes from your brain, the mind, through your facial musculature to your vocalization muscles, down to your heart, your lungs, your digestive organs, and the microbiome in your gut. It's just this big system of neurons. Right. All this flow of information and it's pure mind body. And what I love about the vagus nerve is it's activated by the things you and I care about and try to promote you. Meditate. Elevated vagus nerve. Compassion. Elevated vagus nerve activation. Awe, you know, beauty, music and walking and deep breath. So yeah, I think there are these old ideas that science has started to take down. Mind, body dualism probably doesn't make sense. The Freudian view of the mind so prevalent in the west, it's all fighter flight or sex that's bogus. You know, there's a lot more to who we are neurophysiologically than what those old ideas suggest.

[Dan Harris]

Pass on this question if you don't feel like talking about it. But we've been talking about the benefits of all walks. Yeah, but what do we know about the benefits of just taking a walk whether you're experiencing awe or not?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, I mean it's one of the best things that you can do. You know, there's health science where people look at life expectancy and symptomatology and how's your heart doing and just basic metrics of physical health. And it's benefited by walking and the movements of walking, the breath of walking, how walking tends to deepen your breathing. There are focused studies of nature walks and walking per se that have found that, you know, if I walk through an arboretum, research by the Kaplan's at Michigan, kids concentrate better, adults do better in terms of anxiety and that spread to as a basic paradigm, just getting outdoors and walking very good for the mind and body. Adding some nature to it probably gets a little bit stronger. There's work coming out of Germany, I think where you take elderly people who are really distressed and worried and get them to regularly walk and they start to find ease and contentment. So you know, it's interesting Dan, when you teach happiness like I have for 30 years, people are like, all right man, just give me two things to do or three things to do. And it's like be with some people you care about. Walk outdoors is right up there, you know, as one of the best things to do.

[Dan Harris]

A lot of people, and this is a tendency I have myself get obsessive about, you know, counting their steps. Yeah, I've had some guests on the show who have pointed out that the whole 10,000 steps thing is kind of arbitrary and might have actually began as a marketing technique anyway, you know, I don't know if you have thoughts on this. I've heard it recommended like hey, shoot for around 8,000, but just generally Try to make sure you're moving throughout the day. Do you count your steps or what are your personal practices in this regard?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, many. And thank you for asking. I do count my steps, and I average 9 to 10,000. Last year was 10, this year 9. So it matters. And I notice that it affects my sleep and my sense of well being. One of the things that I do that's. That's interesting to think about for our audience is I ritualize my walk. I think rituals are so powerful. Walking can very quickly become a kind of ritual, a repeated pattern of behavior that has some significance to you. And so when I walk, there are several walks that I do regularly. Right. When I walk to teach on campus, I walk through certain spots. And there's something about the repeated experience of those spots as part of a walk that becomes more significant. When I walk to work, I make sure I touch a tree to honor my deceased brother. And I just take 30 seconds to think about him and what he meant. And so I think that ritualizing these very simple physical exercises can really benefit us. And then I do something that I learned from you in our conversations, which is I make sure as I'm walking to mentally guide my awareness of my senses. You know, and I'll say, hey, man, this is my body moving in space, and my knee's a little sore, but that's okay. And here's what my mind is thinking. Look at my attitudes as I'm walking. What is my attitude this morning in October? Such powerful ways to orient the day. I love Rebecca Solnit, an amazing writer. She has a book on walking that I'd highly recommend. And she says walking is a basic state of consciousness, just like prayer might be or meditation or sleeping or social connection, and we should treat it with care.

[Dan Harris]

I had a guest on whose name I'm forgetting. She wrote a book called the Extended Mind. Her name will come to me as soon as we finish the conversation, just when I don't need it anymore. But I'll put a link in the show notes. She's a great science writer and great interviewee, and she was talking about the fact that walking could be good for cognition because. And this makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. In our evolutionary times, we were having to think while moving because we were nomads and we were hunting and moving through the landscape. And so there are so many benefits. If I have a problem, often walking will help me solve it.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, I mean, the science of walking is serious stuff. Walking is a defining emergent quality of humans. Right. We became bipedal primates compared to chimps, which, you know, hustle around on all fours. Walking gives you a certain way of looking at the world. It gives you a certain perceptual experience of envisioning what's ahead and then thinking about what's behind, which is really interesting. Time is different. Walking very often is social and we're walking with other people and we know from science, we synchronize, we suddenly are getting out of the narrow individual self to more. You know, I always promote the collective self, living in Berkeley and so forth. But, you know, it's important, right? We're starting to sync up with other people. So yeah, it has all these just basic rudimentary effects on our state of mind. And I love that book, Extended Mind and the idea that as we ritualize walking and build awe into it and seek out beauty and seek out sociality in our daily walks, it becomes much more than an activity. It becomes this extended sense of awareness. Right. So when I walk to now to work, it's much more than just steps. It's a form of being. Right. That allows me to think about my life.

[Dan Harris]

Just to say, I too track my steps, but I'm pretty.

[Dacher Keltner]

How many are you doing a day?

[Dan Harris]

Somewhere between 8 or 10, but sometimes it's, well, more than that, 8 or 10,000, just to be clear. But yeah. And so actually kind of leads me to my next question. Not just eight or ten steps, period. It does lead me to my next question because one of the things I do, and this may just reflect my obsession with productivity and I think one part of this I'm very confident in and the other part I'm a little less confident in. So one part of it is if I'm having a day long meeting, my team often will have day long meetings at my house. And so often we'll take one or two breaks and take a walk together as a team. So we talked a little bit about the benefits of that and how the nervous systems can sync as you're walking together. But another thing I'll do is I really hate zoom, which is a point of contention between me and my team because I really like to take a walk either in the house or better outside of the house if the weather will permit, while I'm in a meeting and I concentrate better. I really can take in what people are saying if I'm moving in this way, but I'm not really kind of getting in touch with nature so much in that I've got these headphones in and I'm really in a conversation. So I'd be curious to see what you think about that.

[Dacher Keltner]

I think it's profound. I'm a critic of zoom education. The idea let's put an entire class online. And I don't think the data bear that out. I think it's bad for students. Obviously you can't walk with. Although I did an AW walk with my class of 500 people recently at Berkeley. So we had about 60 people do it. And yeah, you know, walking. And this comes out of the kind of the early work, revolutionary work coming out of the University of Michigan, the Kaplan's and early pioneers in eco psychology. Like just getting out and walking is just good for the mind. It helps you attend to things better, it helps you remember better, it helps students perform better, it helps quiet down their impulsivity and they enjoy a lot of benefits. And so that is some evidence suggests true of adults as well. Just walking is good for concentration. It's good for problem solving. Darwin did a daily walk. He had a very patterned way that he used to walk near his house. And some of his best insights about evolution came up on those walks. And I think it brings together what we've been talking about of envisioning things, imagining expanding your field of vision, calming the body, activating curiosity, and all scientifically documented. And as an outside consultant, Dan, I'm going to say you get the nod with your team. So that's my recommendation.

[Dan Harris]

Let me press you on a little bit first. Let me say Darwin's very interesting. I mean, he had a lot of privileges many of us today don't enjoy. But having said that, he, you know, he worked for a few hours in the morning and then the rest of the day was walking and in this way, you know, made massive, incalculable contributions to scientific understanding. And it speaks not only to the benefits of walking, but also to not overworking, which is one of my instincts, which is to just drive myself into the ground thinking that I'll get more shit done. But actually you often get more shit done if you're doing less.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

But anyway, back to my penchant for walking meetings when I'm on the phone. You said before, if you're taking a walk, it can help you attend to things better. But is that really true if, like me, you're taking a walk and like talking about HR issues or the budget or whatever it is, and you're not really attending to the world around you, you're just getting your steps while doing your meeting?

[Dacher Keltner]

Well, you know, I think that we Always scientifically, any scientist will say, like, everything is multiply determined, right? So when you walk, there's a whole cascade of benefits. Your breathing is different, your heart rate is different, your muscle tone is different. Maybe you get a little opioid release and your body feels at ease. You feel agentic, your sense of self is different. So a lot of things are going on. And yeah, your attention may not have the expansive feel when you're talking about HR or budget issues, but you have all these other benefits that are occurring, which we know. You know, again, you know, Barb Fredrickson wrote about this so powerfully. Like, stress states tend to narrow our attention and get us analytical and confined. The expansive positive states open up our minds. They make us curious. They make us see systems and think of new insights. That's well documented. And I think even if your attention is narrow on a HR issue while walking, there'll be other benefits brought about by these other effects of walking.

[Dan Harris]

Thank you for making me feel better. All right, so last thing I want to talk about with you, and this is a big and rich topic, is walking meditation. I was on your show recently, your podcast, which I highly recommend to everybody, talking about walking meditation. And so it feels like something we should talk about in this context. Let me just open the floor to you for a second to. I don't know if this is a practice that you personally do, because I was. When I was on your podcast, I was mostly running my own mouth. So I'd be curious to hear, like, what your take is on walking meditation, the science, your interest in it, whatever you want to talk about.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, the science. You know, we've cited a lot of the benefits of walking. Nature immersion walking, awe walks. I feel robust. MBSR John Kabat Zinn's program has walking meditations. It has many different practices in it, but that's an important part. And I remember Jon Kabat Zinn leading. I was part of an early team. I think it was mind and life, you know, walking at one of the retreats, 40 minutes to cover like 100 yards. And it was the transcendent experience that I would put up there with the top 10 mind experiences I've had of, like, just time stretched out and I felt so communal with the 100 people walking, et cetera. It's powerful. I believe in it. And then what I do personally is probably twice a week I sync up breathing and footsteps, you know, and just like get into the counted breath, which is one of the best tested techniques in this literature. And then I sync it up with my walking, you know, four breaths in, four steps, six breaths out, six steps. And just. Or whatever the synchronization might be. I do AWE walks regularly. I do the practice that you talked about that had a big effect on me of walking and noticing your attitudes and your sense of body and what you're seeing. And then I expand on that and look at colors and forms. And then importantly, I want to get back to the ritualization. I sync up my walks to times of day and the weather. California gets less rain when we get big rains. Here in Berkeley, we have streams. I go walk because I love seeing the streams in the rain. With friends, we walk towards dusk just as a way to get the body synchronized with those patterns. So it's such a rich thing to build on and I'm glad you're emphasizing it.

[Dan Harris]

A couple of things to follow up there. One, just, you know, if people haven't heard of Jon Kabat Zen, he's an incredible human and has. I'll put some links to the many, many interviews I've done with him in the show notes for this episode. And as Dacher mentioned, he is the progenitor of something called mbsr, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, which really took mindfulness out of its Buddhist context and I think in a very healthy and helpful way and sort of secularized it. He doesn't love that term, but he created a secular way in which we could practice mindfulness, which really then led to an explosion of scientific research which has led to the increasing popularity of the practice. So just a hat tip to jkz and then I just wanted to follow up on this just to make sure I've got it correctly. Your synchronization of your breathing and walking. I think what you were trying to say is that you'll take a deep in breath and take four steps during the in breath and then a deep out breath and six steps during the out breath.

[Dacher Keltner]

Okay, I got the counting wrong. And I really appreciate your sharp ear, you know. Yeah. I take a breath in four steps, exhale six steps, breath in four steps, exhale 6 steps. And then once that is going, then it's like really do almost like a body scan. Like I'm feeling my feet, I'm feeling my calves, I'm feeling my thighs. You know, I have sore knees, so I feel that feel the body. So it is this bringing in the breath counting, which is very powerful in the body scan as part of walking. And I do that once or twice a week.

[Dan Harris]

That sounds great. Just in case people didn't hear me on your show, maybe it makes sense for me to recapitulate the basic instructions for walking meditation as I do it. So I'll. I'll say a few words about that and maybe you can react on the other side. How does that sound?

[Dacher Keltner]

That sounds great. I love this practice.

[Dan Harris]

So for me, I walking meditation, it can be done any time of day, but for me, I usually do it right before bed. So my meditation practice is on a good day, I'll do a seated practice in the morning. You know, on a really good day, it's 30, 40, 50 minutes in the morning. And then I'll do a quite a lengthy walking practice right before bed. And I started doing this because I developed insomnia in the middle of stressful period of work tumults, where I was breaking up with the meditation app company that I co founded. And that was caused me several years of insomnia. And for me, insomnia often shows up as a overwhelming restlessness. So I'm thrashing around in bed. And that's the worst thing you can do, thrashing around in bed, because you're teaching the brain that the bed is a place to struggle. So the advice is to get out of bed. One expert on this show said, you know, get out of bed and do something fun. Since I'm descended from puritans, I don't believe in doing anything fun. So I get up and do walking meditation. And so actually, even before I get into bed, I'll do it. Sometimes I'll set a timer and if I'm feeling really ambitious, I'll go as long as 30 minutes. But often it's 10, 15 minutes or until I just feel exhausted and I just stake out a patch of land. It can be 10 yards. Maybe it's a loop in my house and I walk. There are ways to do walking meditation that involve walking very, very, very artificially. Slowly, which is what I suspect Jon Kabat Zinn was having you do on that retreat that you referenced. You can also do walking meditation at a regular walking pace. I split the difference and do kind of a slower than normal walking. And I have these three phrases that are from a Burmese teacher by the name of Sayada u Tejaniya. The first is, are you aware, and actually I've tweaked that I've substituted a phrase that comes from Joseph Goldstein, which is there is a body. Which is a funny phrase. It sounds like I've made this joke many times. It does sound like something you would say at a crime scene. But there Is a body is actually something that's taken out of the Buddhist scriptures. Joseph has just taken that phrase, there is a body, and it's just drop that into the mind. You become aware of the physical sensations as you're walking, and then every time you get distracted, you start again and again, there is a body. You can do some mental noting in there. Movement, hot, cold, seeing, hearing. Just, again, the skillful use of thought to direct you to your sensory experience. The second phrase that I'll drop in, and you referenced this earlier, Decker, is what's the attitude in the mind right now? And that can illuminate any subterranean desire for a different experience or aversion to whatever physical pain you might be feeling. It's really a helpful way to get you to see that there might be hindrances. That's a Buddhist term of art, hindrances operating in your mind. And then the third phrase, and this is very relevant to all three episodes we've recorded as part of this series. Dacher. The third phrase that I will drop into my mind is this is nature. And this is, to me, the most interesting in some ways, we believe, I think, often subconscious. So we have this sense that we are isolated egos separate from nature. But every thought we have, no matter how embarrassing and seemingly bespoke or idiosyncratic, is an expression of the universe. How could it not be? Every sensation you're having in your body is nature in a couple of ways. Anything that happens at all is always nature, but it's also nature in that it's the lip of a wave on an incalculable ocean of causes and conditions that have led to this very moment. And that provokes awe. Just seeing that you are indivisible from the universe provokes awe. So I've just said a lot. There anything in there worth commenting on your side?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah. And what a wonderful practice, and thank you for your philosophical riffs on it. I'll tell you, I had very similar reactions to doing this, and I do this. I did it with my students recently, which was really fun. So your. My Berkeley students benefit from your practice, Dan, and it was. They really loved it. They loved slowing down and having a sense of their attitudes. For me, what's really powerful is the attitude element. I have pretty good awareness of my body. I played a lot of sports, but somehow the idea of, like, all right, what's your mind saying? And often my mind is too rushed or critical or judgmental, and it's when I hear that it calms that. Which is great. And I will tell you, I had this moment of this is nature. I was walking back home, walking near a park, and it was feeling easy nature. And there's this unhoused gentleman who lives in the park, and he's brilliant, and he is constantly talking about politics and, you know, what's going on. And sometimes I get frustrated, but this time I was just like, this is nature, right? This is humanity. Like, this is what we are. We have 700,000 unhoused. We got to work on it. Listen to the brilliance of this guy. He's more interesting than most colleagues I speak to. This is human nature. Like, look at us. Ordinarily, I'd walk through and I'd be so critical and judgmental. And this time I was like, wow, what a. What a marvel this all is, you know, and what should I do about it? So I love the practice a lot.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to build on that. He's nature. Your aversion to him is nature. It's all impersonal, passing phenomena in the mind, and tuning into that is liberating because you don't take your shit so personally. And I mean, to me, that is the deepest level of the benefits of nature. It's not just the physiological and psychological stuff of hearing tweet, tweet or seeing beautiful things in nature. It's recognizing the indivisibility.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah. And your observations there are, I think, where the science of nature is going. Getting back to indigenous wisdom like that of Dr. Yuri Sulidwin, like, all of this is nature, you know, this is. This is life, and culture is nature. It's a big, complicated web of relations. And to start to realize that is awe inspiring.

[Dan Harris]

As you say, that's probably a pretty good place to leave it. I do want to thank you, Dacher, for coming along on this ride. This is the, as mentioned, the third of three episodes where we talked about the benefits of nature. It's so great to talk to you. Always. Before I let you go, can you please just name the books you've written and your podcast and any other things that people should go out and check out.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah. So I've written Born to Be the Science of a Meaningful Life, the Power Paradox, and then most recently, Awe, the New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform your Life. And then the podcast, which you've been graciously on is the Science of Happiness, which we're really proud of here at Berkeley at the Greater Good Science Center.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Just to rename those books Born to Be Good, the Power paradox and awe. In particular, Born to Be Good has had a massive impact on me and on my next book, which is taking forever and is about it's about love to use a term that is freighted. But I'm actually going to try to lean into the complications of that word. But the Born To Be Good formative for me in my thinking on this issue. So Dacher, really appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks again to Dacher Keltner. Before I leave you, I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor once again, Columbia Sportswear for supporting today's episode and in fact, this whole series. Their commitment to getting people outside to connect with nature, something I very much recommend resonate with, especially after talking to Dakar. Finding the right gear can make all the difference in helping you make the most of your time outdoors. Columbia Sportswear's Omni Heat Infinity jackets have amazing technology designed to keep you active without compromising comfort. I can speak personally on this one. They've done a very good job on that jacket. It's the kind of gear that can turn a good outdoor adventure into a great one. Head over to Columbia.com to see how they can keep you prepared. Prepared for any temperature. One final thing to say before I really let you go. I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great people over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the Van Islands wrote our theme. It.