Trudging Through Your Own Life? Here's the Stoic Fix | Maria Semple

Summary

10% Happier with Dan Harris

Episode: Trudging Through Your Own Life? Here’s the Stoic Fix | Maria Semple

Date: April 17, 2026
Guest: Maria Semple, bestselling novelist

---

Overview

In this episode, Dan Harris sits down with Maria Semple, acclaimed novelist and stoicism enthusiast, to explore how ancient Stoic philosophy can be applied to everyday modern challenges. Through a lively, personal conversation, they discuss reframing difficulties, focusing on what’s within our control, maintaining joy even during adversity, and the limits of Stoicism, both as a philosophy and a daily practice. They also delve into Maria's new novel, Go Gentle, which is steeped in Stoic themes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction and Context ([00:04]-[06:09])

• Dan introduces Maria as a long-time friend and talented author going through lots of personal changes.
• Maria’s new novel, Go Gentle, features a protagonist deeply versed in Stoicism—a reflection of Maria’s own philosophical interests.

---

2. “Dig It, Baby”: Loving What You Do ([06:10]-[11:14])

• Origin Story: Maria shares the story behind her "Dig it, baby" sign above her desk, originating from an acting coach who told her partner, “look people in the eyes, and this time, dig it, baby.” ([06:44]-[09:32])
• Takeaway: “If I’m not loving what I’m writing, I should just get up and walk away and just wait till I dig it. I’m not going to continue writing unless I fully dig it.” — Maria ([06:55])
• Life Application: Both agree this isn’t only creative advice but life advice: commit sincerely to what you’re doing, be present, and transform “have to” into “get to.”

---

3. Stoicism and Reframing Life’s Challenges ([11:15]-[16:46])

• Cognitive Reframing: Maria describes Stoicism as the art of finding “the most useful perspective to a situation.” ([12:33])
• Reframing as Activation: Maria gets imaginative turning negatives into positives: “If something bad has happened...I actually think it’s really fun to just get your imagination, like, fired up...(finding) another way of looking at this.” ([13:18])
• The Power Is in Remembering: Dan warns, “The biggest obstacle is remembering...[otherwise] you forget to do it completely.” ([14:19])
• Practice Is Key: Maria emphasizes building habits: “Without a practice, it’s just something that makes you like all psyched to change your life… you have to internalize it so it starts to become second nature.” ([14:46])
• Regret Avoidance: “The low road always dogs you. It just makes life a lot easier not to have taken the low road because it will stay with you.” — Maria ([16:04])

---

4. Stoicism 101 — Focusing on What You Control ([16:47]-[21:00])

• Maria’s Introduction: She discovered Stoicism about 12 years ago through William Irvine’s A Guide to the Good Life.
• Core Principle: “There’re things that you can control. There’re things that you can’t control. Your job is to only focus on what you can control. And that’s virtue.” ([17:02])
• Modern Echo: Stoicism is the ancient source of the Serenity Prayer and the root of much CBT.
• Application for Happiness: Let go of externals, focus only on your actions, thoughts, and character.

---

5. Maria’s Daily Stoic Practice ([23:53]-[29:49])

• Routine Steps ([23:53]-[27:41]):
  • Writes out her philosophy of life: “Virtue equals freedom.”
  • Reviews four virtues (wisdom, courage, justice, temperance) and matching adjectives.
  • Journals about daily purpose, reframes tasks as “I get to do this.”
  • Reads Stoic texts (Seneca, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius) and other philosophy.
  • Key: Focuses daily goals only on controllable actions and attitudes.
• “You only desire what is in your control.” — Maria ([27:41])
• Desire, Thoughts, and Actions: Aligning these is the heart of daily practice and Stoic discipline.

---

6. Stoicism, Adventure, and Human Messiness ([29:49]-[34:06])

• About Go Gentle: The protagonist, Adora, is a Stoic sage who believes happiness comes from desiring only what one already has, until new chaos upends her life.
• Limitations of Stoicism: Maria notes Stoicism can deny aspects of human nature—desire, passion, chaos—especially “the low road” and the wildness of new love or adventure.
  • “It’s kind of asking you not to be human.” — Maria ([32:59])
• Stoicism Modified: Both Maria and her protagonist soften Stoicism, making space for messy, unpredictable humanity.

---

7. Stoicism vs. Meditation ([34:09]-[40:23])

• Maria’s Meditation Experience: She finds meditation brings up anxiety, unlike her Stoic practice—until she discovered the Metta (loving-kindness) style.
• Dan’s Reframe: Meditation is about “being cool with whatever you’re feeling,” not clearing your mind; it cultivates equanimity with discomfort. ([35:11]-[36:50])
• Exposure to Anxiety: Dan relates meditation to exposure therapy—learning to coexist with the mind’s gnarlier bits.
• Meta Practice Approved: Maria decides to try 10 days of Metta practice, realizing “whatever works” is the right approach, not rigid rules. ([39:59])

---

8. Stoicism’s Warmth and the Limits of Reason ([42:17]-[44:19])

• Love and Rationality: Maria acknowledges that while Stoicism encourages friendliness and justice, it’s fundamentally rational, not exuberantly loving. “It is pretty cold. It is pretty purely rational...I’m not seeing [pure love] in the text of Stoicism.” ([43:44])
• Messiness as Innovation: Maria and her character innovate by adding messiness, wildness, and warmth to the Stoic recipe.

---

9. Character, “Baited Bounties,” and Indifference ([44:19]-[50:13])

• Importance of Character: Stoicism provided Maria (and her character) a new language for moral character—separating “character” from societal “baited bounties” (status, wealth, reputation).
• "Externals" and Indifference: Maria explains Stoicism’s distinction:
  • “Preferred indifferents”: Comfort, pleasure, and money—fine if unmixed with attachment.
  • “Dispreferred indifferents”: Discomfort, loss—shouldn’t undermine tranquility.
  • “If you get [externals], you have to get it without attachment.” ([48:34])
• Danger of Desire: Both Stoicism and Buddhism warn that focusing happiness on externals leads to suffering. ([47:53]-[48:16])
  • “Buddha said: ‘What the world calls happiness, I call suffering... it’s like licking honey from the edge of a razor.’” — Dan ([48:16])

---

10. Getting Things Done without Unhealthy Attachment ([50:13]-[54:27])

• Balance: Maria explores the tightrope between productive ambition and non-attachment.
  • “How do you get shit done with non attachment?” ([50:48])
• Value of Fantasy: For Maria, fantasy was a childhood coping tool—she now sublimates it into creative work.
  • “I’m not going to renounce fantasy...I think it’s good.” ([54:07])
• Sublimation as Service: Dan calls this “sublimation”: turning pain into art that serves others.

---

11. Letting Go of Results & Final Thoughts ([54:28]-[57:06])

• Good Enough Is Amazing: Dan cites wisdom from his CEO: “Good enough is pretty amazing.” ([55:27])
• Gratitude for the Process: Maria reflects, “I want to have written this book now…everything else is gravy.” ([55:55])
• Non-attachment to Results: Dan echoes Buddhist teaching: “You can work incredibly hard…but then you release it into an entropic universe and you have to do your best to be non-attached.” ([56:43])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The problem isn’t the problem, the problem is how you’re relating to the problem.” — Dan Harris ([00:04])
• “If I’m not loving what I’m writing, I should just get up and walk away and just wait till I dig it.” — Maria Semple ([06:55])
• “You know, in a way, you just kind of have to make the decision, I get to do this. That’s a thing that I really like.” — Maria Semple ([10:10])
• “The low road always dogs you.”— Maria ([16:04])
• “Virtue equals freedom. Virtue is the only good. Its pursuit is the only guarantee of abiding good cheer, secure joy and a tranquil mind.” — Maria’s personal philosophy statement ([23:53])
• “You only desire what’s in your control. That’s a really big thing, and that’s actually quite radical.” — Maria ([27:41])
• “It’s kind of asking you not to be human, to not want to…do the wrong thing and feel good sending a hundred angry texts and becoming unhinged in the moment.” — Maria ([32:59])
• "If doing no meditation is what works for you, I want you to do no meditation. If doing some meditation of a specific variety is what works for you, then do that.” — Dan ([39:59])
• “If something bad has happened… get your imagination, like, fired up and just think, like, what’s another way of looking at this…” — Maria ([13:18])
• “How do you get shit done with non attachment, right?” — Maria ([50:48])
• “Good enough is pretty amazing.” — Dan via his CEO ([55:27])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:44 – “Dig it, baby” sign and philosophy
• 12:33 – Stoicism as reframing; bringing imagination to challenges
• 16:46 – Stoicism basics: focus only on what you can control
• 23:53 – Maria’s daily Stoic journaling and routine
• 29:49 – Maria’s novel and critique/modification of Stoicism
• 34:09 – Maria’s trouble with meditation vs. experience with Stoic practice
• 39:59 – “Whatever works” approach to meditation
• 42:17 – Stoicism’s rational limits & lack of “gooey” warmth
• 44:19 – Character-building vs. status seeking; “baited bounties”
• 48:34 – “Preferred indifferents” and “dispreferred indifferents” explained
• 50:48 – Getting things done with (or without) non-attachment
• 55:27 – “Good enough is pretty amazing”: letting go of perfectionism

---

Conclusion

In this vibrant, honest conversation, Maria Semple and Dan Harris illuminate how timeless Stoic ideas—and their creative reinterpretation—can reframe difficulty, foster resilience, and foster delight in the mundane. They highlight the value of practice, the challenge of remembering wisdom versus living it, and the need to temper reason and discipline with human messiness and kindness. Maria’s story, her novel, and her daily routine offer tools and inspiration for anyone seeking not just to trudge through life, but to “dig it”—even in tough times.

---

For more on stoicism and creative reframing, check out Maria’s new novel Go Gentle and past episodes with William Irvine and Ryan Holiday.

Transcript

[Maria Semple]

Foreign.

[Dan Harris]

This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang. Today we're talking about the enormous power and relief and release that comes from shifting your perspective. One way of putting this is the old saw about how the problem isn't the problem, the problem is how you're relating to the problem. So today we're going to talk about that, but we're also going to talk about a whole bunch of other stoic principles, including focusing on what you can control and letting the rest fall by the wayside, which my guest calls, quote, a major turn on. And we'll talk about the concept of, quote, digging it, baby, no matter what's happening. My guest is my friend Maria Semple, who's a well known novelist. She is perhaps best known for her novel, which then turned into a movie called Where'd you go, Bernadette? And now she's got a new novel that's getting a ton of buzz called Go Gentle. I had the opportunity to read it early and it's incredibly good. And it is filled with stoic principles because the protagonist is an expert on stoicism, but which I should have said this earlier, but it's the ancient Greco Roman philosophy which itself has become incredibly buzzy in recent years. And Maria herself, as you will hear, is a big stoic enthusiast. That's why she injected the theme into this new novel. Although as you will also hear her discuss, both she and her protagonist have some questions about the limits of stoic philosophy and practice. By way of context, I got to know Maria several years ago when I met her, and what I'm about to say is supremely bougie. I know, but when I met her, when we were seated near one another at a dinner party at the TED conference where I was giving a speech, over the subsequent years, Maria and I have become really good friends. I've watched her go through quite a bit in her personal life, including divorce and a cross country move, and then of course, all the labor that she put into this new book. So it's really moving and fun for me to watch this book come out and be so well received and then to get to interview her right here on this show where, as you will hear, she did a great job. You're going to love this conversation. Before we dive in, just real quick, I want to point out that one great way to improve how you handle the problems in your life and in the world at large is meditation. Which is why I would love for you to check out my new meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris as you may know, I had a meditation app for many years and then I went through a painful separation from that app and now I've got this new thing which I'm really happy about. Many of the same teachers from the old app or on this app, people like Joseph Goldstein, seven Jeff Warren and more. What's different with this app is not only do we have all the amazing guided meditations, but we're also now leaning into community. We've built in features that allow you to connect with me, with the teachers, with the team and with one another. We also do weekly live events with a guided meditation and then we take your questions head on over to danharris.com to get the app and join the party. The first two weeks are free and if you can't afford it, just let us know and we will hook you up. Okay, we'll get started with Maria Semple right after this. You know what can be good for your brain health? Learning a new language. Engaging in mentally demanding tasks like language learning helps build what's called cognitive reserve. Having that reserve can help your brain function better for longer, even as it ages. Which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method is helps you naturally absorb your new language. No memorizing random vocabulary lists and no relying on translations. Instead, you learn by connecting words, visuals and meaning in context, the way language is meant to be learned. My mom, who's a big language learner and language aficionado, long used Rosetta Stone for her global travels. Now they've got this really cool feature called True Accent which gives real time feedback on pronunciation. So it's like having a personal coach. You can learn anytime and anywhere. Rosetta Stone fits your lifestyle with flexible on the go learning. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit rosettastone.com happier right now and begin your language learning journey. I don't eat a ton of meat, but when I do, I really want it to be high quality and responsible. Sustainable, healthy, environmentally friendly. That's important to me. I imagine it's important to you and that's what you get when you work with our sponsor today, Butcherbox. ButcherBox delivers over 100 premium protein options straight to your door, including 100% grass fed beef, free range organic chicken, crate free pork and wild caught seafood. It's all responsibly raised and thoughtfully sourced so you're not guessing about what's on your plate for over a Decade, Butcherbox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic free, free, hormone free, and independently verified. Because when it comes to fueling your body, quality isn't extra. It's everything. As an exclusive offer, new listeners can get their choice between chicken breast or top sirloin for a year or ground beef for life, plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com happier. That's right. Your choice of chicken breast or top sirloin for a year or ground beef for life, plus $20 off your first box and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com happier. Don't forget to use our link so that they know that we sent you. Maria Semple, welcome to the show.

[Maria Semple]

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

[Dan Harris]

Dan, your book is awesome. Go gentle. Everybody should read it. I was lucky enough to get an early copy because we're friends and. Yeah. Just let me start by saying congratulations.

[Maria Semple]

Thank you. Thank you. It's exciting for me that it's out in the world now and people are starting to read it. It's very cool.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, it's super cool. I mean, I'll just speak selfishly, having talked to you throughout. We met each other a couple of years ago and just being able to watch you do this thing in the middle of a period of like, real personal tumult on your side. Yeah, it's very cool to watch it. From soup to nuts.

[Maria Semple]

Oh, thank you. Yeah. To go from. I'm sure we met when I was despairing that the book wouldn't come together and probably also giddy that I was writing the greatest thing ever. It's all, you know, you cover every single thing. When you're writing a novel, it takes years and you kind of feel all the emotions while you're doing it.

[Dan Harris]

You had a sign that you put on your computer while you were writing it, and I think it said, dig it, baby.

[Maria Semple]

Yes.

[Dan Harris]

Can you just unpack that?

[Maria Semple]

Yeah. So I have a sign that says dig it, baby. And what it does for me is it basically tells me that if I'm not loving what I'm writing, I should just get up and walk away and just wait till I dig it. I'm not gonna continue writing unless I fully dig it. The story of that is that many years ago, my former partner and I produced this show together and he was doing a series of monologues, and he'd never done monologues before in his life and he'd never performed. And. And I had gone to a Buddhist meditation retreat a week of silence. The only time we could speak was when a guy named Scott Kellman, who was an acting teacher, came in and did with us something he called the work. And it was this. I guess they were acting exercises. I'm still kind of unclear about what an acting teacher was doing in a Buddhist meditation, silent Retreat. But he came and he really reminded me of, like, Roy Scheider and all that jazz when he was playing Bob Fosse. He was just like a seriously cool cat, this guy. And he would just make us go really deep and kind of stand in front of people and look at them and kind of tolerate being looked at. And then all the emotions that came up from it. So maybe there was some kind of Buddhist stuff. I really like this guy. And right before our opening night of this show, George, my ex, was kind of nervous about, for the first time, going up in front of an audience. And so I said, I think we should bring in this guy, Scott Kelman. I think that he's gonna be able to help you. So Scott came in and watched George do these monologues. And George stared at this spot, like, high up on the ceiling, and just read and delivered the monologue, his first one. And then Scott said to George, who are you looking at? And George said, well, I'm just looking above everybody. Cause I feel like if I look at anyone, I'm gonna get really distracted. Like, there's gonna be friends of mine in the audience. And I don't wanna have to look at them. Cause I don't know how to do this. And then Scott said, okay, I want you to do it again. And this time, I want you to look people in the eyes. And I want you to dig it, baby. And I just really like that. The idea of just, like, look people in the eyes, and this time, dig it, baby. And so that's what I have on my desk. The look people in the eyes is kind of important too. Cause it's about being sincere and wanting to connect and taking a risk in that way. So that's kind of what I like to write by.

[Dan Harris]

I love that I didn't actually know the full story. Even though you and I had talked about the sign over dinner several times. So it gives it a lot more color. Hearing the full story, it feels to me like life advice. Not only for the creative act, where those of us who do creative work can fall prey, I think, to the sunk cost fallacy, you know, it's like, oh, I've been working on this for a while, so I gotta finish it. Even if it's a slog, I've been there. But also for like life, for all of life. You know, just whatever we're doing, let's actually dig it. Let's actually be here for it.

[Maria Semple]

Absolutely. And just the willingness to commit to things without any other voice in your head, you know, it's like the resentment and there's a lot of stoicism in that. Seneca writes a lot about it. And as you know, my book has a lot of stoicism in it, but that's a really big thing that. There's a lot of quotes about that that I really like, which is just show up and show up with pure gung ho spirit. That's a modern word. They didn't use gung ho back then, but that's what it is. And I do think it is very simplifying. You know, in a way, you just kind of have to make the decision, I get to do this. That's a thing that I really like. Instead of I have to do this. You shift it to I get to do this. And that's the kind of energy I feel like one should bring to everything.

[Dan Harris]

Do you never fall back into a place? Place that I. And I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I. I feel like too often I'm trudging through my to do list, and so I'm not digging it, I'm just doing it. Did that ever happen to you? And if so, how do you pull yourself out of trudging to digging?

[Maria Semple]

Well, to do lists is not a good example because I really love getting shit done. I feel like in a way, that's really what writing a novel is for me. It's just this massive to do list. So. So I really bring fiendish, joyful energy to tasks, you know, and having to do anything. So to do list is not the best thing. I think it might be more working out or something, you know, for me. But so anything that's just like planning, making decisions, planning coming up with some kind of scheme I find very creative. Actually. Even a to do list of, oh, how am I going to get that done? Who do I call first? Oh, no, maybe I should call the other person first before this. You know, that's like very happy for me to be doing all that. And so that's not really hard. But I'd say when I'm doing something I don't really like to do, I really try to think of it as character building. I'm gonna go through this and I'm gonna be better on the other side. And I will be stronger on the other side and kind of grittier, maybe on the other side. So that brings joy to it, I think.

[Dan Harris]

So what I'm hearing throughout this very young conversation, you know, that we're just starting, is bringing cognitive reframes to stuff. Does that land for you?

[Maria Semple]

Oh, very much so. And in fact, I will, I'm sure, talk about the stoicism that I'm very into. But there was a quote that I was reading that it said that stoics try to bring the most useful perspective to a situation. And I really like that because I feel like, yes, it's reframing. I feel like everything you can reframe. And I really like the word useful because it's so simple. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's like, a useful way of looking at something, and there's not. Epictetus says there's two handles by which you can hold a vase, I think is what he's referring to. Hold something and hold it by the right handle. And so I do think that if that reframing is useful, it makes your existence better. And I think that what I really like about it is that it really, to me, activates my imagination. You know, if something like bad has happened, quote, unquote, or, you know, I don't get what I want, or there's a frustrating person. I actually think it's really fun to just get your imagination, like, like, fired up and just think, like, oh, what's another way of looking at this Again? Then I'm into my, like, to do list energy. And I'm then excited. I'm, like, psyched about this situation. Like, oh, there's a way that I can reframe this to make it positive.

[Dan Harris]

It's amazing, the simple power of changing your perspective to alleviate dread, anxiety, anger, whatever.

[Maria Semple]

Yeah, it really is. It's kind of crazy that it's so available any given time. Like, nothing's keeping you from doing it. You're just 100% in control of it. It's just readily there for the taking should you choose.

[Dan Harris]

I think the biggest obstacle is remembering. I think the biggest problem in all of whatever you want to call it, personal growth, self improvement, spiritual development, whatever. The biggest problem is remembering. You can listen to Maria hold forth on stoicism, which she's about to do, and then, you know, you go through the rest of your day and you're pulled into the tides of forgetting, and a ripe opportunity comes up for reframing. You just forget to do it completely.

[Maria Semple]

And I think that that's why practice is really important. And I think everything, you know, meditation is a practice. And I have a stoic practice. And I think that without a practice, it's just something that makes you, like, all psyched to change your life. I used to always say I heard something that changed my life, and now I've forgotten it. You know, it's like. And I think that's what you go through if you don't just go through almost like the drudgery of practice. And that's what it's for. Right. So you can internalize it and that this stuff starts to become second nature or the first. Maybe not the first response, because sometimes that's just visceral of just dread or shame or panic or whatever it is. But maybe, like, very quickly afterwards, you can go to the reframing thing, and it almost feels natural.

[Dan Harris]

I love what you're saying. And yes, I've been humbled so often when taking the Buddhist or stoic or psychologically wise approach is the eighth reflex on my part after a million other less constructive roots. But at least it's in there.

[Maria Semple]

Yeah. And the damage is done, right? And that was. It's like, oh, Jesus, now all these apology emails have to write and all of this, you know. So I almost think on just a basic level, that's why you should do it. It just like, saves you a lot of time.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Maria Semple]

I have a phrase that I like that I say. The low road always dogs you. It just makes life a lot easier not to have taken the low road because it will stay with you.

[Dan Harris]

Yep, the lower road can be really fun for a few delicious nanoseconds.

[Maria Semple]

The best.

[Dan Harris]

Let's talk about stoicism. So the protagonist in your new novel, which again is called Go Gentle and is phenomenal, is an expert in stoicism and has written books about it and is a teacher of it. And this is based, as I understand it, in your own deep personal interest in stoicism. So I'd be interested in hearing your story. How did you get interested in stoicism? And what is it for those of us who are uninitiated?

[Maria Semple]

Okay, so I got into stoicism maybe 12 years ago or so, and I. I think I just read about it in the New York Times, and I read a book about it. William Irvine wrote a book called, I don't know, we can look it up in the show notes or whatever.

[Dan Harris]

He's been on this show. So I'll put the episode. I'll put a link to that episode.

[Maria Semple]

Okay, the Guide to the Good Life. I think that's his William Irvine. It's just this really great intro to stoicism. And I read it and was really turned on. What turned me on initially was this perspective thing. But the basis of it, as I understand it, is that there's things that you can control. There's things that you can't control. Your job is to only focus on what you can control. And that's virtue and everything else you just cheerfully throw over to fate. And so that sounds suspiciously like the A.A. serenity Prayer, you know, and a lot of other kind of systems. And it was formulated 300 BC, you know, by the Greeks. And it's kind of crazy that it's so old. And it really is only focus on what you can control. Cognitive behavioral therapy is very much rooted in stoicism. And so I think for anybody in any program, the first time you hear something like that or let them write the melrodge, you know, just like, let, like whatever's going on, whatever people, whatever is gonna happen in the outside world, it's not your business. Just concern yourself with yourself. It's really energizing and it's a super turn on, you know. And again, it's one of those things where you're like, yeah, my life is gonna be different. I'm now gonna live this really happy, superior life. And so I started reading the Stoics themselves. Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius. And I just kind of invented this program for myself because I didn't know anyone who was a Stoic or anyone who was into it. And so every day, sitting down and reading Stoicism and figuring out my philosophy of life and writing it down and doing these journal exercises that I kind of created for myself. And that's how I start every day. And it's really fun. It's actually very hard to tear myself away from it, you know. And then I read some of the. I don't know, I just like, putter around with my stoicism and get very happy and focused, you know. And it's like, to me, it really helps. One of the things I do, it's like, clarify your purpose. That's a big thing in stoicism. What am I gonna do that day? What is today about? What? Virtue. And the word virtue is kind of problematic. Cause it sounds churchy or whatever, but it's the four virtues, I think they're. Plato is wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance. So it's not judgy, it's just about your own character. So then I got really into it, and I'm still into it. It's kept alive in me for all these years.

[Dan Harris]

So the turn on here I just want to dig into this is there's something, if I'm hearing you correctly, really invigorating and empowering about focusing on what you can control and letting everything else fall to the wayside.

[Maria Semple]

Exactly. And the more you kind of study it and learn about it, the more wisdom you see in it, the more you really see that there's actually nothing outside of yourself you can control. When you really start looking at it that way, so it really positively reinforces things. Then there's the reframing that's fun. That I think is good and easy. And then pretty soon, I mean, you've gone through this with your meditation practices. You'll be in a situation and you'll just kind of notice that you have just experienced it in a very, not very, maybe even a slightly different way than you might have a year before where it just doesn't stress you out or cause you anxiety. And you're like, oh, wow. I think something must have worked along the way. I don't quite know how, but there's been a shift, and I have a much more peaceful existence.

[Dan Harris]

Coming up, Maria talks about her own daily stoic routine, what stoicism actually is, and what to do when meditation gives you anxiety. There is a version of your home you haven't lived in yet. Where the light behaves, where the rooms feel finished, where you sleep until you decide to wake up. Blinds.com has spent 3:30 years making it easy to find the perfect fit. With over 25 million windows covered, and they've got 50,000 five star reviews, you can feel confident you're in good hands. As a homeowner myself, I cannot tell you how important blinds are. You probably already know this, but in our house, we have definitely experienced the importance of blinds. We get a lot of sunlight, which is a great thing, but you don't want it in your face first thing in the morning. So having blinds that block the sun, really important for a good night's sleep. And we know that a good night's sleep is just the linchpin of a healthy and happy Life. Over on blinds.com they've got a great selection. They've also got tons of other features. The ability to customize any window covering, free samples sent right to your door, and the ability to easily add installation at checkout. Right now, blinds.com is giving our listeners an exclusive $50 off when you spend $500 or more, just use code Happier at Checkout Limited time offer rules and restrictions apply. See blinds.com for detail. I deal with this all the time. Energy dips. It happens to me mid afternoon. It also hits me hard at the end of the day. That's where Spark comes in. It gives you energy and mental sharpness without training trade offs. Spark's Energy Focus is your go to pre workout ritual when you need reliable energy to power through a lift, ride or run with 0 grams of sugar and essential vitamins and amino acids for mental focus. Spark supports reliable, sustained energy and focus without that jittery spike and crash feeling. Sadly for me, I can't actually use Spark because I can't have caffeine for a bunch of boring reasons. But Taylor from our Team team who has boundless energy uses Spark and loves it. Spark helps support energy metabolism on active days. It's got B vitamins and L carnitine, also vitamins C, A and E to help support your immune health and lots of great tasting flavors. Spark Energy Plus Focus is offering 30% off and free shipping. Go to drinkspark.com and use the code Happier at Checkout. That's code Happier at Drink Spark. Tell me about this morning practice that you do. Can you just really walk us through because it sounds like you've invented it and so there isn't some workbook people can buy. So can you just give us the steps in case we want to replicate it for ourselves?

[Maria Semple]

Yes. Oh shoot. I wish I brought my stoic book with me. I almost did. It's this little book that's now about 60 pages long that I've rewritten about 15 or 20 times that I keep writing and improving and then going back to Kinkos and having them print up a new one and put a little coil binder on it and then do it. You know, when it gets too marked up, I make a new one. And so I start out by writing down my philosophy of life, which is my goal for today is to bring my actions, desires and thoughts into line with my philosophy of life. My philosophy of life is virtue equals freedom. Virtue is the only good. Its pursuit is the only guarantee of abiding good, cheer, secure joy, and a tranquil mind. So that took like 10 years for me to write. Okay, so like that's my philosophy of life. And so I write that down every day to remind myself. And then I go to the four virtues and I have adjectives listed next to the virtues. And if it's like wisdom, I'LL go to one of my adjectives next to wisdom, you know, sound judgment or something. Because wisdom really is about just separating what you can control from what you can control. And then justice is about. There's a lot of kind of meta in that. Friendliness, benevolence. It's not about, like, being a justice warrior. It's about just, like, being a good human being to others. Then there's courage, which is, like, about work. And it's like, love of work. There's a lot about, like, not falling in with the mob, you know, about, like, moral courage, about endurance. And then under temperance, it's about kind of discipline, patience, speaking less, speaking kindly. I kind of pick little subcategories of virtues that I need to work on that day. And then I journal all this out. I journal it out, and then it's like, clarify my purpose. I figure out what my purpose is that day. And then there's, like, a list of prompts. I think today I did. I get to do this. That's what I did. I was like, I get to go and talk about my book with Dan. Like, this is really amazing that I get to do this. You know? Like, I love Dan. Like, there's a podcast studio down the street in my publisher's house that's all set up. You know, that's like, all this good stuff is happening. And it's about not like, oh, fuck, I gotta go do this thing with Dan. And, you know, it's like. Cause it could. I love you, but do you know what I'm saying? We all can just slide into that. So it's basically just like, reframing it so it's really positive. And then I'll read the Stoics, and then I read other philosophy. I'm reading some Rousseau now. I'm trying to. I'm not trying to, but I enjoy branching out a bit. And then I'm, like, ready to write.

[Dan Harris]

This is so interesting. I just want to. For anybody who wants to do a bootleg version of this for themselves, it sounds like, roughly speaking, the exercise begins by restating what your life philosophy is. And then the next click deeper is, how does that apply to what you're going to do today?

[Maria Semple]

Yes.

[Dan Harris]

And then you do some reading, what might be cheesily called inspirational reading of Stoic philosophers, et cetera, et cetera. And then it culminates in some sort of journal prompt around, how am I going to. Back to today? How am I going to apply one aspect of this very rich philosophical tradition to what's on my docket for today. Did I roughly restate that correctly?

[Maria Semple]

Yeah, no, that's exactly it. And then you're like, let's go. Let's go do this thing. You know, here's the important thing is that I've set it up so that every single thing that I set out to do was 100% in my control. For instance, when I was coming down here, it wasn't like what I wanted to do today. It wasn't like, I want Dan to love me. I want to sell a million books on the podcast. I want to become, like, an influencer. It was like, I wanna be on time. I don't wanna interrupt. I feel like I have. So I'm gonna go into a shame spiral. But try not to interrupt, try not to swear. And those were, like. The only three things I really intended to do today was to write. Were those three things. And I'm like, maybe b or something. But it was like, I wanted to be professional, like, love of work. I wanted to show up with my full self. And. And so that's what's really fun about it. It's not like you set out for the day to, like, write a bestselling novel. It's because you can't control that. You set out for the day to do, like, a good day of work and to focus and to concentrate and not to just, like, waste your time on the Internet and take naps and things like that. That's what's kind of so fun about it and that it's like you only desire what's in your control. That's, like, a really big thing, and that's, like, actually quite radical, is to shift. And that's why in my top half of my philosophy of life is it's, like, to line up my desires, thoughts, and actions. Those are the three disciplines I think of stoicism. It's thoughts, desire, and action. But desire is really the big one, which would be a very good segue to my book and my character. But I feel like you want to keep talking about stoicism so we can put a pin in the segue.

[Dan Harris]

No, no, no. I want to follow your lead here, okay. Because actually, I think it doesn't take us far afield from stoicism because your protagonist starts the book in Act 1 in this state of feeling like she's got it all figured out. And in many ways, she does, right?

[Maria Semple]

And she's. And I just interrupted. There we go. So it's like, now I've just. Okay, but that's. See You're a friend. That's the problem is I feel like if I didn't know you, I have friends, apparently I steamroll over and I don't even care. That's like what it is to be a friend of mine. But. So she basically has figured out that the key to life is to desire only what she has. Her name is Adora Hazard. She's a recently divorced woman who's moved to New York with her teenage daughter, very similar to my story, lives on the Upper west side. And she has kind of figured out that if you desire what you have, then you're happy. And so she's set up this really fantastic life for herself. She's single. She assumes that she'll never find love because she's kind of later in life. So she doesn't desire love. She desires the company of her friends. And she lives on the seventh floor of an apartment building. And a lot of other single women live in the other apartments. And they call themselves the Coven. It's like the best, smartest people, her favorite people in the world. And they kind of share Netflix passwords and do things and the ideas, when they get old, they'll all just like take care of each other. And she's the moral tutor to a very wealthy, eccentric family who lives on fifth Avenue, and particularly to their twin boys. And so after they go to their private school and they're wearing their uniforms, they come back with all their really terrible, like, status obsessed values. She has to sit there and kind of talk them through it and try to, like, do moral training for them. And so she's quite, you know, pleased with herself, I should say, which is kind of one of the digs against philosophers. You know, it's like the arrogance of the philosopher. It's like the Christians, that's how they, when Christianity came along, they would talk about how, you know, philosophers who were kind of running rampant until Christianity believed that reason could solve everything. You know, you didn't need faith. So they got a, I guess a bad rap because they didn't believe in faith. They just thought, no, I have everything I need to solve all the problems. And so there was kind of an arrogance to it, even though Adora's not particularly arrogant. I did just kind of write it just with a little flavor of being pleased with herself. So then what happens is early on she meets a handsome stranger at the ballet, a man at the ballet, and he pulls her into this kind of international mystery. And Adora kind of realizes that maybe that she hasn't snuffed it out as well as she thought she did that in fact, there is something like a flame that is burning inside of her. And this guy awakes it. And then this whole plot awakes it. And then we go back and learn about what happened to her and why she turned to stoicism and why, like, character became very important to her and the stories she'd been telling herself. And so it's. All my books are crazy. It's a pretty crazy plot, but it's very philosophy heavy, which is this aspect of exactly how this book is crazy.

[Dan Harris]

Is it, in the end, something of a repudiation of stoicism?

[Maria Semple]

Then? You know, it's kind of interesting is that I think that one of the things that's, to me interesting is that stoicism doesn't love chaos. And I kind of like chaos, you know, like you say, oh, I love the low road. I, you know, really love the low road. But I mean, it's like kind of asking you not to be human, to not want to, like, lust or just, like, give into your appetites or do the wrong thing and feel good sending a hundred angry texts and becoming completely unhinged in the moment. Like, that is being human, you know. And so I feel like there's certainly a denial of that in stoicism of a stoic sage. And so. And I think love is, especially in the early stages, as I was writing about in my book. It's just by definition, chaotic. And you're unhinged and you're desiring what you don't have. And you'll do anything to get it and to keep it and all of that kind of good, great shit that love is. And so I think at the end, she kind of is still a stoic, but maybe has modified it a little bit.

[Dan Harris]

Where are you with stoicism?

[Maria Semple]

I love stoicism, but I will say I'm also kind of now getting into Nietzsche, who really hated the Stoics. He has his own set of problems. But there's something about just the creative will that I think is just really fascinating. But I will always. I don't know that I will ever not do my stoic practice. Cause it really does make me feel good. It's just now a practice. Do you meditate, like, every morning, Dan? Do you start out the day?

[Dan Harris]

It really depends on the day.

[Maria Semple]

Okay, So I feel like I certainly don't feel this when I meditate, which is why I rarely meditate. But I don't feel good when I meditate, you know, Like, I feel Bad. When I meditate, I will say, sorry, I know this is a meditation podcast. We're supposed to be. But I mean, I just judge myself too much, you know? And it's like when I get anxious, I have all this anxiety. And I think stoicism just at least makes me feel good while I'm doing it. I'm not just sweating with shame while I'm doing it. Sorry. Is this not a good thing to say on this podcast?

[Dan Harris]

No, no. There's no such thing of bad thing to say on this show. And it's not really. I mean, we talk about meditation and Buddhism a lot, but it's really about. We've done tons on stoicism. We do sleep, and it's all aspects of life. Maybe this is a little bit cute, what I'm going to say. I do want to get back to stoicism and your take on it and what you said about Nietzsche, which I need to learn more about because I don't fully understand. But just to respond to what you said about meditation, which is very common, the experience you're describing, and the cute part is I do want to reframe it if I can for you, that maybe this will be helpful. And this is not designed to browbeat you into meditating. It's just to help change the way you and some others think about it. The point of meditation is not to feel any kind of way. The point is to be cool with whatever you're feeling. And that leads to a kind of meta equanimity where you realize that whatever comes up externally or internally, you can handle it because you've sat with it, sat with all the ugliness of your mind, and survived. One of my favorite little aphorisms. It's a coinage of Joseph Goldstein, who I know you're familiar with, my favorite meditation teacher. And he often tells people it's okay, which does not mean everything's okay. It just means it's okay to feel whatever you're feeling right now. And that creates a kind of equanimity that allows you to navigate all life's ups and downs with more skill. Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

[Maria Semple]

No, it does. And then you bring that into everything, then there's just kind of a general benevolence that then you will greet the day and other people with. Right. Once you kind of give it to yourself, I can really see that I have the same issue you have, which is anxiety is I feel like when I sit to meditate, my heart races. It feels like it Wouldn't be racing if I weren't meditating. So why am I putting myself in this situation? You know, maybe you have an answer for that.

[Dan Harris]

I do. A two. Two part answer. Two part answer. One is you can think about it like first. Well, before I give you the two part answer, I want to signal again.

[Maria Semple]

I know, I know. You've never, you've never been the seller, the peddler. I know.

[Dan Harris]

Thank you. Two part answer. One is you can think of it as a kind of exposure therapy. The anxiety is a prominent and massively salient feature of your mind and my mind. And whether we meditate or not, it's going to be there. And so meditation is a way to kind of learn to work with this gnarly inconvenience psychological feature or bug more skillfully. So there's one answer. The second answer is there are types of meditation that I think go right at anxiety. In particular, you used this word before, meta. Not M E T A, like the name of the company that owns Instagram, but M E T T A, which is a kind of benevolence or friendliness. And that style of meditation where you systematically envision certain people, send them good vibes, including yourself, which can be very cheesy. As you know, it was designed by the Buddha. It is said as an antidote to fear and it makes sense. Love is kind of the opposite of fear. And so if you can just generate that skill of warmth and passion, it pulls you out of spirals of fear and anxiety. So that's my two part answer.

[Maria Semple]

Okay, so I love the meta practice. Okay? It's like a drug. I just feel like a runner's high after I do it. So here's my question. If, like my practice was to sit down in the morning and listen, do you have it on your app? I'm imagining a meta practice. Okay, so let's say I go to your app and I do Metta every morning. That feels like cheating for me is meditation. Like, I have this idea that I need to sit there and empty my thoughts and if something goes by, watch it like a cloud or whatever. And then. But could I just every morning do a meta practice? Like if you guide me or another teacher, I like, literally listen to a tape, but I'm not alone quietly with my thoughts.

[Dan Harris]

Yes, a million percent. You can do exactly what you're describing. And just to say on the clearing your mind thing, that's impossible. And that's a pernicious misconception that people carry into their meditation practice that makes it miserable because they're trying to do an impossible thing so there's no cheating. Another Josephism is whatever works. Do what works. If doing no meditation is what works for you, I want you to do no meditation. If doing some meditation of a specific variety is what works for you, then do that.

[Maria Semple]

Okay. God, you know, I'm actually gonna do this. I'm gonna do like a 10 day meta practice because I love the meta practice, like I say. So I'd go into it without dread. I'd be like, oh yeah, you get to sit down and like send good wishes to the stranger, which I love doing. Okay. And I'll report back.

[Dan Harris]

Coming up, Maria talks about the limits of stoicism, the danger of bated bounties. I'll let her explain what that is. How to get shit done with non attachment, using fantasy as a coping mechanism and much more.

[Maria Semple]

A text says you're on my mind. A bouquet from 1-800-Flowers says, you're my everything. Heartfelt moments belong in the real world, not just your phone. For 50 years, 1-800-Flowers has helped millions of people make memories that'll last a lifetime with gifts they'll cherish forever. Their expertly curated arrangements and gift baskets shipped nationwide with a 100% satisfaction guaranteed. Don't wait for the next big moment. Make it when you visit 1-800-FLowers.com podcast. That's 1-800-FLowers.COM podcast.

[Dan Harris]

Save on family essentials at Safeway and Albertsons this week at Safeway and Albertsons, fresh cut cantaloupe, watermelon, pineapple or melon medley bowls, 24 ounces are $5 each and wild caught lobster tails are $4.99 each. Limit eight member price plus selected sizes and varieties of Doritos Lays, Cheetos, sun chips and Kettle cook chips are $1.99 each. Limit for member price. Hurry in these deals won't last. Visit Safeway or albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save. This kind of brings us back to your character and your story and also your personal story because we were talking before we went down this little rabbit hole about the limits of stoicism. And I'm wondering if stoicism's reputation, and I'm not an expert in it, stoicism's reputation as kind of clinical and reasonable is missing the warm and gooey piece that is the inevitable result, I believe, of loving kindness practice.

[Maria Semple]

Right? I mean, there's a lot to be said here and you can pull quotes and, you know, like I say, justice is really about friendliness and being compassionate and the difficult people that you give love to and all of that. But I don't really think that's what it's about. Like, I think if you really wanted to defend stoicism, that you could say, oh, no, it's in there. It's all in there. It is pretty cold. It is pretty purely rational. And I think it is rational to love people and to be kind to people and to embrace difficult people. But in stoicism, it's, like, rooted in rationality. They say it's part of being human, so maybe that gets a little closer, you know, that that's what being a human is. And we have to get along with people. And what is it? What's good for the hive is what's good for the bee or what's good for. I don't know what bee is good for the hive or whatever it is. Like, we all have to work together in a system. But no, it's not. And I'm not an expert. I mean, I spend a lot of time on it, but I certainly don't hold myself out an expert. We should get Ryan Holiday on the phone because he would have a good answer for this. But I think that just about being purely loving, I'm not seeing that in the text of stoicism. You know, just like running around joyfully and giving love.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Just to say about Ryan Holiday, he's been on the show several times. I'll put a link to my interview in the show notes. I'll put a link to my interviews with Ryan, and I'm sure he would have a lot to say on this subject. But getting back to you and your main character, Adora, it seems like the while you and Adora both continue to love and practice stoicism, there is this addition of a little bit more messiness and warmth and wild love that you're innovating on top of it.

[Maria Semple]

Yes. And just allowing that. And, you know, I'll tell you something that I was writing that was kind of one of the sparks for writing the book, or there's this section in the middle of the book that's of going into Adora's past. And one of the things that I really love about stoicism and what I wanted to write about, and particularly as it pertain to me, is that I realized as I was studying stoicism that I'd never thought about my personal character, which was really horrifying to me, that I was raised Catholic, but I feel like they didn't talk about character. They just talked about, like, miracles that Jesus did. And if you didn't believe it, you'd have to, like, say more Hail Marys. It was not a good priest I went to. Apparently, I didn't learn about just being in control of your character and always doing the right thing and having moral courage and separating that out from kind of status seeking and what society is telling you will make you happy. You know, all the bainted bounties, as we've called them before, of just success and reputation and money and all that stuff, I realized that as I started getting into stoicism that I was. I had just kind of internalized all this garbage without really thinking about it. And so that's really what I wanted to write about was kind of character, that Adora kind of felt like she had bad character because she wanted kind of the wrong things. You know, she was like, I was. I conveniently made her a former TV writer in Hollywood, as I was. And she was younger when she did it, as was I. She was chasing all these things that society tells you are gonna make you happy. And so I think one of my real turn ons with stoicism was just kind of separating out all of that stuff. Questioning that the stoics go really hard at that does not make you happy. You know, that is like the path of suffering. To pursue any of that, even if you get it, it's gonna make you miserable. And so that's just something I hadn't heard. That's like really fresh and new, you know, if you're just sitting around mindlessly munching down, you know, just the messages of society, it's like, oh, wow, there's another way. And I don't have to be a toxic person carrying this stuff around with me. And so that's kind of Adora's journey as well, you see. And that was really fun for me to write about.

[Dan Harris]

What was the term you used? Bainted bounties.

[Maria Semple]

I used that you don't remember at dinner once a few months ago, and you really liked it, so I was giving you another shot at it. Dan, that's so embarrassing.

[Dan Harris]

My memory is like Swiss cheese. But so.

[Maria Semple]

No, it doesn't matter. It was so minor. No, no. It's what Seneca calls things that get dangled in front of you. Stoics call them externals that anything that's outside of your control and often you desire them. The baited bounties are basically like riches or something that you think like, oh, it's bountiful, but it's like baited with treachery or with negativity. And you think you're going for something that's gonna make you happy, but it's actually something that you snap at.

[Dan Harris]

So that I probably said this at dinner and don't remember that either, but.

[Maria Semple]

Right. That's okay.

[Dan Harris]

The Buddha talked about the terrible bait of the world.

[Maria Semple]

Oh, okay. That's what it is. The bated bounty.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, it's all the same stuff. He also said, what the world calls happiness, I call suffering. And what the world calls suffering, I call happiness. And so it's all about the downside of desire. He's not anti pleasure, but he describes it, and this is quite a simile here, as being like licking honey from the edge of a razor.

[Maria Semple]

Ooh. Okay. Ouch.

[Dan Harris]

Okay, so there's. Yeah, we need to eat and reproduce and lots. He's not saying we need a completely monkish, Although he was a monk life. It's that if that's where you're placing all of your hope for happiness and fulfillment, it is unlikely to provide.

[Maria Semple]

Right. And that's what this is. The Stoics have one of my favorite terms. Just because it's so clunky and it's so, like, such a bad translation. But I don't know how else to do it. So I think it's Seneca mainly, who says that you can want money and pleasure and reputation, but that if you get it, you have to get it without attachment. You know what I'm saying? That you can, like, as long as you're not attached to it, you can have it. Which was convenient for him. Cause he was, like, the richest man in the empire, you know? So we had to, like, come up with a workaround right about, like, huh, I'm sitting here in my robes, you know, with all of my enslaved people around me. So how do I circle that square? He puts externals, which again, is anything that's not your character, into two categories. And he calls externals indifference. I N D I F F E R E N T S. Right, Indifference. They are like an indifferent. And he says that there are preferred indifference, which is like comfort and pleasure and money. And then there's dispreferred indifference. And I just think that's a really funny term, is a dispreferred indifferent. So when something really bad happens, I'm like, that was a dispreferred indifferent. That these things that happen, you can. You still can want good things to happen to you. You know what I mean? And I think that that does allow for humanity, because we are human. I want my book to do well. And I don't think that that makes me like a shallow bad person that I want people to read my book. I want it to get out in the world. If my whole sense of tranquility doesn't hinge on that, then that's okay.

[Dan Harris]

It is to go back to the edge of the razor. It's a very narrow path that I hear you describing, which is you don't want to deny your humanity. You're a person who has spent several years working to create this beautiful book. So you want it to do well. You can't help that you want it to do well. And you're doing these morning rituals that help you sanely tune into the fact that if you want things that are beyond your control, that is a reliable wellspring of unhappiness.

[Maria Semple]

Exactly. And so during the day, if I'm writing, I want to focus, I want to just try to do the best work I can. And then at the end of the day I'm happy. And I guess that it is like a matter of faith or not happy. But it's like I've done what I set out to do so I don't have this whole extra thing of like being miserable from not achieving that. And then, you know, you put enough of them together and then you've got a product. I guess that's kind of the faith that you have to do that. It's not just about wanting the success of it. I want to finish a book, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm not pretending that I don't wanna finish a book. I am not just like totally floating in non attachment. I mean, I always find, I'm sure I've talked to you about this is how do you get shit done with non attachment, right? How do you get through the day? And we both are accomplished people and we obviously value finishing books, right? And having like crazy projects that we see to fruition. And that takes a lot of self will, right? It takes a lot of determination and desire and a lot of fueled by fantasy, you know, in my case. And that's all like danger zone, danger zone. You do need that.

[Dan Harris]

So how do you balance that?

[Maria Semple]

I don't know. I guess I go back to my practice. But I really believe that fantasy kind of kept me alive. When I was a kid. I was a really lonely, kind of unhappy kid and unpopular and I was fat and the bullies would beat me up and I would just really prefer my own company. And I would just create these really elaborate fantasy scenarios, usually involving celebrities being in love with me. But it was, you know, these like very happy worlds that were just like highly determined. And I would just have to be at school or something, or I would be like in my fantasy world in the middle of like literally dialogue. And then it would be, hold that thought, I have to go to class. And then like come back and pick up right where I left off, you know. And I used to love like being alone. And I grew up in Aspen, Colorado and. And I would always like to be the single on the chairlift. You know, like, I always hated it when I'd be in the chairlift line. I always like kind of pretend I was with somebody and then just like get on the chairlift by myself. Because it was just so happy for me to sit on this chairlift by myself. I would kind of hope the chairlift would stop so I could just sit there and just like live very intensely in this fantasy world. And so I think that's what made me a novelist. It made me able to kind of sustain my attention over a long time. It made me create scenarios that were extremely pleasurable to me. And I think that that was a value that I bring to my books that I write. You know, I try to write like really nice places for people to go. Even though it's like filled with ideas and suffering in some ways. Like generally I really want to offer someone this very kind of over determined, happy world that they can live in for a while. So I'm not going to renounce fantasy, that kind of fantasy life. I think it's good.

[Dan Harris]

Well, to my area, what you've done, this beautiful thing, I think the term for this is sublimation. I think maybe like of taking this difficult aspect of your childhood and then you had this survival mechanism of the fantasy and now you've turned it into art that is a service to the world.

[Maria Semple]

Oh, well, thank you. Yes. I mean, that's a nice way of looking at it. Thank you.

[Dan Harris]

One last thing to say as we wind down here about this balance of trying to do big and meaningful and important and beautiful things in the world without being overly attached. One of the biggest sources of wisdom in my life is the CEO of our little company. Her name is Tony. We were in a meeting recently about my next book and planning a bunch of stuff. And I think she could sense that I was getting revved up and crazy. And she said, just keep in mind that good enough is pretty amazing. And I just, I was like, I Want to get that tattooed on my forehead. Like, good enough is pretty amazing. If this project is just fine, you know it's good enough, you know, it doesn't have to like put a dent in the universe. It's going to be pretty amazing for the people who read it, for my company, for me, for my family. And that's sanity inducing for me.

[Maria Semple]

Very much so, yeah. I totally agree. And that something recently that's similar that I think you can definitely relate to. Cause I know you've been working on your book for a while and I haven't written a book for 10 years. This is my first book in 10 years. So I'd taken a lot of attempts, abandoned novels, tried this one and it didn't work out and abandoned it, tried other things. A friend of mine recently who's having a book come out at the same time mine is at lunch, said to me, what do you want from this book? We were both like really pre pub. And she's like, what do you want from this book? And I thought about it and I thought, I want to have written this book now. It's so. I've really. That's like. I'm so happy I wrote the book. That everything else is gravy, you know, and. Right. I mean, don't you feel so proud, Dan, that you're gonna have written this fucking book finally?

[Dan Harris]

Yes. I need to do a better job of occupying that space because it's very easy for me to get into the realm of not being indifferent and trying to control things that I can't control.

[Maria Semple]

But I don't know, I think by working hard and doing your best work, that does really set you up for being able to let go a little bit.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Maria Semple]

You know, it's the only way to do it.

[Dan Harris]

Yes. The Buddhists call it non attachment to results. That you can work incredibly hard on a book or your child, as both of us are parents or anything, any project, you can work really hard on it. That's what you can control. But then you release it into an entropic universe and you have to do your best to be non attached.

[Maria Semple]

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Dan Harris]

Before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the name of the book and then also your past books just for people who want to take a deeper dive.

[Maria Semple]

Oh, thank you. So this book is called Go gentlemen. It's called. It's a novel. And the other books that I've written, the one that people would know more than the others is called Where'd you'd go, Bernadette? I think that was your gateway book, Dan, into my universe. I wrote a book called Today Will be Different and one called this One is mine. And so Go Gentle is my fourth book. I feel very fortunate to be able to be talking about it. So. So thank you.

[Dan Harris]

Where'd you go? Bernadette was my gateway, but I had met you before that. I met you and didn't know. I didn't know anything really. And I just liked you. And then I was at a book sale at my kids school and saw that Where'd you go? Bernadette was available. So I bought it, read it and loved it. And then we stayed being friends.

[Maria Semple]

Exactly. No, that was a really awesome text that I still remember getting from you. That was like a year later, like, hey, by the way, I read that book. I was so happy. That was very nice of you. Thank you for texting me.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, well, I sent a similar text after I read Go Gentle which in my opinion is even better. Where'd you go? Bernadette was amazing. This is even better. So you just keep getting better.

[Maria Semple]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Dan Harris]

All right, Maria, thanks again for coming on.

[Maria Semple]

Thank you, Dan. This is fun.

[Dan Harris]

Thanks again to Maria Semple. Don't forget to check out her book Go Gentle. Also, don't forget to check out my meditation app. If you're into that kind of thing, danharris.com is the place to get it. There's a 14 day free trial if you want to try before you buy. And if you can't afford it, just let us know. We'll hook you up. Finally, thank you very much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vincent. Facility. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Save on family essentials at Safeway and Albertsons. This week at Safeway and Albertsons, fresh cut cantaloupe, watermelon, pineapple or melon medley bowls, 24 ounces are $5 each and wild caught lobster tails are $4.99 each. Limit eight member price plus selected sizes and varieties of Doritos, Lays, Cheetos, sun chips and Kettle cooked chips are $1.99 each. Limit four member price. Hurry in. These deals won't last. Visit safewayoralbertsons.com for more deals and way.