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10% Happier with Dan Harris
We All Need To Make Money and Interact With Capitalism. Is There a Non-Icky Way To Do It? | David Gelles
00:50:09
A playbook for finding financial success without compromising your values. David Gelles is a bestselling author and a climate correspondent for The New York Times. His new book, "," reveals how Yvon Chouinard turned Patagonia into one of the...
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- [00:00]
David Gelles
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Dan Harris
This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, everybody. How we doing today? We are going back to a subject that I find inexhaustibly interesting and urgent and a little confusing. Can you get paid and do good? Put another way, how do you make money without being knocked off the Buddhist path? Can Buddhism and capitalism coexist? My guest is an old dharma buddy of mine, David Gellis. David is a reporter for the New York Times, where he's covered business and climate for many years. He's also written a bunch of books, including one called Mindful Work, which is about how companies are increasingly incorporating meditation into the workplace. His most recent book is called Dirtbag Billionaire How Yvonne Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune and Gave It All Away. In this conversation, we talk about how David met Yvonne Chouinard, who's the founder of the brand Patagonia. What a dirtbag is the innovative ways in which Chouinard ran his company, including taking care of his employees well, offering robust maternity benefits, staying environmentally conscious, and then, in the end, as you'll hear, giving away the business. We'll talk about the question of whether or not capitalism can be done right, how to talk to your children about capitalism, whether or not capitalism and the dharma can coexist, advice how to live well in a capitalist system, and how much time the species has left before we need to really get our shit together on climate before we dive in. Just to say, don't forget to check out what we're doing. Over on danharris.com paid subscribers now get paid Guided meditations with all of our Monday Wednesday episodes. This is a Friday episode, so there's no guided meditation today, but I'm really psyched about the fact that we're doing them every Monday and Wednesday. Paid subscribers also get weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions on video. We do these every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. The next one will feature our Teacher of the Month 7A Selassie. That's this Tuesday at 4. Sign up@danharris.com Speaking of Seb, by the way, if you want to meditate with me and her in person, we'll be back at the Omega Institute for another installment of Meditation Party. The that's coming up on October 24th. It will run straight through that weekend. Okay, we'll get started with David Gellis right after this. I just went back out to the beach. I took a fall trip with my wife to the beach in Montauk, New York, which is our favorite place in the world. We were out there for a wedding and we stayed at our friend's house. And I was just reminded of how much I love staying in a house on vacation. There's something just magical about staying in a house. You feel like you're part of the scene, not just a tourist. So yeah, I love staying and welcoming homes that I can book on Airbnb. But while I was in the home out in Montauk, it got me thinking that our home could be the same thing for somebody else. We put so much time into making this place beautiful and comfortable, so why not help somebody else feel comfortable and taken care of while they're traveling? When we're away from home this is an option you yourself might want to consider if you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling. It's a great way to offset some of the costs of your own trip. And that extra income can be put toward an upcoming trip, a splurge you've been eyeing, home improvements, etc. And if you've got a lot of trips ahead of you, hosting on Airbnb is a pretty cool and unique way to make some money back. Your home may be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host let's be honest. Shopping? Not my thing. I like having nice clothes, but I really don't like going to the store and waiting in line and trying on lots of stuff and dealing with all of the choices and also being reminded that many things that look good don't actually fit me. And that's just the in store experience. The online experience for me can be super frustrating as well because I, you know, like I'll order three sizes of the same shirt, hoping one fits and then I'm too lazy when none of them fit to return everything. That's why I'm recommending you check out Stitch Fix. You just take a quick style quiz, share your size, your vibe and your budget and boom. You're matched with a real human stylist who handles the rest. They send you a fixed book with clothes that actually fit and make sense for your life, work, weekends, whatever. It saves you time, you look great and you don't even have to think about it. It's no risk. All style. Try it all on in the comfort of your own home. Keep what works, send back the rest. Free shipping and returns always and no subscription required. Plus you get a free try for your first fix. Get started today@stitchfix.com happier and get 20% off your first order when you buy five or more items. That's StitchFix.com happier. David Gellis, welcome back to the show, bud.
- [05:11]
David Gelles
Thank you so much for having me.
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Dan Harris
Congratulations on your new book. I'm going to mangle the pronunciation of his name. Is it Eve? Eve Schwinard? Schinard.
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David Gelles
You did indeed mangle it. It's Yvonne Chouinard. Yvonne Chouinard.
- [05:27]
Dan Harris
Yvonne Chouinard. Okay, there you go. Unmangled. That's not the first mess you'll have to clean up of mine. How did you get interested in Yvonne?
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David Gelles
I first met Yvonne Chouinard writing my very first book 10 years ago, which we've spoken about on this pod, I think, which was called Mindful Work, which was about how meditation and Buddhism was showing up in corporate America. I'm one of the weird people who has both a life as a Buddhist and also a life as a business reporter. And in looking for business leaders who had some relationship with some kind of Dharma, Chouinard King came onto my radar. And now he's not a Buddhist. He's never practiced formal meditation. However, he has drawn deep inspiration from Zen Buddhism and in particular Zen's focus on simplicity and sort of getting to the essence of things. And he's used that over the course of his career to inspire his product design. And so I spoke with him about that 10 years ago and then just kept covering the company because as I found out about, it's a really remarkable company for all sorts of reasons.
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Dan Harris
Didn't Steve Jobs have a very similar interest in Zen? Like, he wasn't a practitioner, but it inspired some of the designs of Apple products.
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David Gelles
Yeah. And my understanding of of Steve is that he actually went a bit deeper down the formal practice and study route than Chouinard ever did. Jobs, if I recall, had a personal relationship, perhaps even with Suzuki Roshi. So there were some real touch points with people who are part of Dharma lineages on the job story. Chouinard never had that. You know, this was a guy who was sort of reading random Zen books he find along the way and drawing inspiration as he interpreted it.
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Dan Harris
Got it, got it. So what's his basic story?
- [07:19]
David Gelles
The basic story is that Yvon Chouinard was born in the woods of Maine in 1938 to a Quebecois French speaking family. Didn't speak English until he was 10 years old, but from a very early age was completely enthralled by the outdoors. When he was about 10 years old, his family moved to California where he had to learn English very quickly. And also as he sort of Tried to integrate into Southern California your life, very clearly discover that he didn't fit the mold of sort of a traditional American kid. He was cutting class, chasing frogs in the Los Angeles river, had real no patience for traditional academic life. And as he became a teenager and a young man, really went deep into the life of an outdoorsman, never went to college, but sort of became a self taught, real badass rock climber. You know, one of the people who, this is late 50s, early 60s now, was putting up like first ascents on some of the biggest granite walls in Yosemite Valley and in the Grand Tetons and through that started making his own rock climbing equipment because he needed to, because they were doing these crazy climbs and he couldn't find the right equipment he needed. And then from his time as a manufacturer of rock climbing gear, ultimately started the clothing company that would become Patagonia.
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Dan Harris
In this context, what is a dirtbag?
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David Gelles
Yeah, so the word dirtbag, I get a lot of sort of raised eyebrows like, so you don't like the guy, but in Yvonne Chouinard's conception of the word, he's a self identified dirtbag. A dirtbag in the outdoors community refers to someone who is so unenamored with material possessions that they are content to sleep in the dirt because they would rather be closer to nature, closer to their next adventure, and really have found no valuable cause for all the luxuries that we associate with modernity. And so Yvon Chouinard's proudly a dirtbag. The label that he really bristles at is billionaire.
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Dan Harris
But he is a billionaire nonetheless.
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David Gelles
Well, he was, but he gave it away. And we can get to that.
- [09:28]
Dan Harris
Right. Okay, so let's, before we get to the giving away part, let's talk about some of the ways in which he ran his company that were noteworthy. I mean, I have here on my list, like his attention to taking care of his employees, his like, exacting environmental standards when it comes to the supply chain, political activism. Can you just hold forth on the many ways in which he was a sort of unique corporate citizen?
- [09:54]
David Gelles
Yeah, happy to. But important to note at the outset, it's not as if these things sort of emerged fully formed. Patagonia is a company that's been around for half century now. And a lot of these things were evolutions that took place over many decades. That said a lot of the seeds of the real impactful ways in which Patagonia would show up as a unique corporate citizen were there from the very beginning. And so just to rattle off some of the most Famous ones. You mentioned taking good care of his employees. He famously titled his memoir Let My People Go Surfing. And that refers to his conviction, which. Which was mostly true, that if the waves were good, people ought to be surfing rather than sitting at their desks. And there's a kernel of truth to that at the company, even today. I think more meaningfully was the company's commitment to women and to working mothers in particular. From the very outset, the company began offering really generous maternity benefits, going so far as to set up its own school system at the campuses. And even to this day, you've seen it evolve. And the company, now it has a mother who's a new mom, who's nursing, who needs to take a work trip. Patagonia will pay for what it calls a companion. So if they need a wet nurse or a nanny to travel with them on a work trip, Patagonia just pays that and doesn't think twice about it. And that's the sort of, like, remarkable stuff that goes well above and beyond what most companies offer. Moving on to some of their political activism and conservation work, from a very early moment in the company's history, Yvon Chouinard was using some of the profits generated from the company to support local grassroots environmental activists. At first, it was peanut stuff, right? Trying to protect the local river in Ventura, California, where the company is headquartered. But you fast forward over the decades, they started giving more. They started giving to more impactful projects. And we're now at a stage where the company has literally donated hundreds of millions of dollars over the years to support conservation of wild lands in remote places all over the country. And then finally, the third, I would add, is the company's attention to its own supply chain. Over the course of the company's evolution, Chouinard began paying more and more attention to not only the functionality of his products, but to what those products were made of and how they were made. And that began this deep interrogation of the company's own supply chain. And it got to a place where Patagonia was really going not only to its Tier one factories, which is to say the factories that sew the garments that actually say Patagonia on it, but going to its tier 2 and tier 3 suppliers, which are the companies that make the fabric or the dyes in the fabric, and say, what are the working conditions like in those factories? And if we're not comfortable with it, we're not going to use products from those companies. And so those are just some of the ways and in which Patagonia has distinguished itself as a really remarkable corporate citizen over the years.
- [13:10]
Dan Harris
You are very careful, though, not to deify this dude or the company. And so let's just start with him. You describe him as. As micro. He can be micro managerial. He can be aloof. Just say a little bit more about his character. Not that he's a bad guy at all, but that he's not just purely good.
- [13:31]
David Gelles
Yeah, I think it's important to note here that this is not a book about any great scandal. This isn't a book about the real underbelly of business. I've written those books. I've written those stories, but this is not one of them. Instead, Yvon Chouinard is human, much like the rest of us. On the one hand, he could be a sort of brilliant product visionary, and. And in the same moment, he could be a completely aloof and frankly, irresponsible manager and operator of the company. He could be charismatic and inspirational to his employees. And he could also be a micromanager who was quick to lash out at the people who work for him and ultimately not trust them. And while he was incredibly generous in many ways and ultimately did renounce his fortune and commit the bulk of the company's profits to conservation and grassroots activism, he was never someone who cared a lot about rewarding the people that worked for him monetarily. Which is to say, you know, he's like the rest of us, right? He's a jumble of contradictions. He's often times working at cross purposes with his self and at times seems to contradict the things that he says he stands for. That's life.
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Dan Harris
Yeah. No, I mean, I. I love that. And it's easy, though, in journalism to put people in good buckets or bad buckets. You know, this is another word I'll probably mangle. But to have, like a Manichean, I think is the term, like Manichean view of the world, because that's what makes good copy. The last time you were on the show is to talk about Jack Welch, who, you know, you wrote a book about. And, you know, I think he's a little bit closer to the bad bucket. And none of you know, those buckets don't exist. Everybody's, as you said, a jumble. I remember one time I was talking to Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher, who, you know, is at a point in my life where I had gotten some tough feedback about my comportment in the world. And I asked him, seriously, I said, like, am I just inherently rotten? And he laughed at me and said, no, only halfway, like the rest of us. And so, no, I applaud you for bringing some nuance to what could have been. Here's another word I might mangle. Hagiography. Hagiography.
- [16:01]
David Gelles
You got that one right. Yeah.
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Dan Harris
On the first try or the second try?
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David Gelles
First try.
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Dan Harris
Okay, good. All right.
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David Gelles
Yeah, don't second guess yourself.
- [16:11]
Dan Harris
Actually do second guess yourself. That's the point. Like, sometimes we should check our instinct to put people in a bucket or.
- [16:17]
David Gelles
A box, big time. And that was something that I tried to do throughout the writing process and I really, really worked on, especially in the later stages of the edits of this book. I really tried to be comfortable dwelling in that complexity and the contradictions and the nuance. And, you know, I say in the introduction, many business books sort of offer pat lessons on how to get ahead in life, and this isn't one of them. I think I say in the introduction, this is not a self help manual. It's more like a Zen koan, because it's a question that doesn't have one easy answer. So I appreciate you noting that.
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Dan Harris
So speaking of that. So back in the sort of more admirable side of Chouinard's behavioral repertoire, you mentioned, he gave the company away. Can you put some meat on that particular bone?
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David Gelles
Yeah. I'm always cautious here not to get too in the weeds of sort of corporate governance and equity structures, but just to do it as quickly and as simply as I can. Three years ago, it was the situation where Patagonia was still a privately held corporation and all of the equity, all of the stock in the company was owned by Chouinard and his immediate family, his wife and two children. There were two classes to that stock, voting stock and non voting stock. That's typical in the way many companies are structured. But they owned all of it. And so what they did was they took the 2% of voting shares, which is all the voting shares, but 2% of the overall stock, and they put it in a newly formed entity called a Purpose Trust. That's a legal entity that you can set up in California that essentially just holds a bucket of stock or money and is instructed on what to do with it. Pause there. They took the 98% of the other equity, the rest of the equity, the non voting shares, and put all of that in a series of new 501 C4 nonprofit organizations. And then they had a structure that works like this. The Purpose Trust, which has the voting shares, instructs Patagonia Inc. The ongoing concern a for profit C Corp. Incorporated in California. The Purpose Trust instructs the C Corp to donate 100% of the profits not reinvested in the company to the 501C4S. The Holdfast collective. And the Holdfast Collective gives away those monies on an ongoing basis. And that money amounts to like $100 million a year. And in doing so, the Chouinards really did renounce their claim to the fortune. They no longer own the equity. It's locked up in these new legal entities and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
- [19:04]
Dan Harris
What motivated that decision on his part and the family's part?
- [19:09]
David Gelles
I think motivation's an incredibly important word in this conversation. And I would even just take us back to try to examine the motivations of Chouinard and his family for the 50 years that led up to this decision. And the way I'd sum it up is that they've never been motivated by money. It's just not what got them out of bed in the morning. It's not what inspired them to create the company. And when it came time to figure out what a succession plan looked like at Patagonia, it was not going to be the thing that they were personally trying to hold on to. So what ultimately motivated them to do this was a mortality. Right? Chouinard is now 86 years old. He understood that he was getting old and that something needed to happen. But in particular, the real motivation came when in 2017 or 18, Forbes magazine put him on their list of annual billionaires. And when that happened, he freaked out. He called it one of the worst days of his life. He was huffing and screaming in the office and he told people, get me off this list. Figure out how to get me off this list. Or he threatened he would start calling other billionaires and offering to sell the company. That then began a multi year process where they had to figure out what a structure would look like that would allow them to give away the company, retain Patagonia in some sort of a form that it already was, and ultimately give away many more of the profits. Those were some of the criteria that they had. Took them a couple years, but then they did it. And in 2022, I broke the in the New York Times. And it was one of the biggest stories I've ever written in my life. Just tremendous interest in how this company had managed to pull it off.
- [21:01]
Dan Harris
Has he been an influence in this regard on other reluctant billionaires?
- [21:05]
David Gelles
I think we can give a qualified yes at this point. It's still early. These processes take many years. But What I can say is that I've personally had outreach from many, many founders and companies who have asked me my own take on how they can do something similar. I'm not an estate planner, so I refer them to other people very quickly. And other people I've talked to, including folks in Patagonia and at other sort of related organizations, all report that there is a real influx of family led concerns, private companies that have been asking them for guidance on how they can think about succession planning differently. It might not be exactly the same structure, but they've definitely gotten people's attention and there's a movement afoot to try to least capture some of what they've done and perpetuate it.
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Dan Harris
To get back to this word motivation, what do you think is motivating that quote unquote movement?
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David Gelles
There's a lot of dissatisfaction with capitalism as it is right now. As we discussed last time I was on the show with my previous book, we live in an extremely unequal society in a world in which executives and businesses are prioritizing short term profits, often at the cost of the well being of greater society, individuals, workers, the planet. And I think Chinar's not alone in recognizing that and feeling it. And what's encouraging perhaps is that he's not alone now in actually trying to do something about it beyond, you know, making some empty corporate pledges that you like put on Instagram and then go back to business as usual.
- [22:47]
Dan Harris
Coming up, David talks about a different way to do capitalism, the Buddha's Cookbook for Enlightenment, how reporting on his new book changed his life and much more. Transitioning from summer to powering through your new fall routines can drain your focus and your energy double quick. Avoid the post summer sluggishness with Liquid IV's new energy multiplier, Sugar free hydrating energy. It's scientifically formulated to support physical energy, hydration, focus, mood and social stamina. I'm a big user of Liquid iv. After a workout, so easy to tear it open. And it's nice and clean, not messy. You just pour it into some water. It makes that water way more delicious than the water would otherwise be. And it makes you feel great, especially after you've gone hard. In the gym, which I like to do, you can just slip a packet into your gym bag, into your work lunch, into your carry on bag. You don't have to use it right after a workout, although that's how I use it. You can use it anytime you need a pickup, for example, if like me, you get an afternoon slump. Liquid IV boom. Just one stick and 16 ounce of water hydrates better than water alone. Powered by live hydro science and optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. Don't just power through your day. Ditch the glitch with zero sugar and zero crash from Liquid IV tear pour live more go to LiquidIV.com and get 20% off your first order with code HAPPIER at checkout that's 20% off your first order with Code HAPPIER@liquidiv.com foreign staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT T Guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details. @ T Connecting Changes Everything I know we talked about this last time, but I think I really want to go back into it now because it feels like, and this is unscientific, but my sense of the culture is that especially among young people, just a really rising level of dissatisfaction about capitalism. But you're like right there at the tip of the spear covering capitalism as it relates to the environment. And you started this conversation by describing yourself as a Buddhist. And so I'm just curious, what's your, where's your head at with all of this these days?
- [25:36]
David Gelles
Yeah, I'm thinking and thinking without speaking, but I think it's deliberate because it's such a thorny question and the thing that was coming to my mind, and I guess I'll just think out loud for a moment here, is that I sort of reject this claim that some people make, like, well, I'm an optimist, so ultimately I'm optimistic about it all. I wanted to say something like that and I almost started and I could just feel it was disingenuous. It's not entirely true. I'm very clear eyed about the fact that the world and the economy are in really rough shape and that business as we know it and really society as we know it is enormously extractive and is setting humanity on a multi decade course for a really profoundly different planet with a whole lot of suffering. You know, that's the reality of, of what's happening out there. Some of my optimism, as it were, is derived from the fact that I happen to live a very blessed life in many ways. You know, personally I have security, I have family, I have love, I have meaningful work. But I get why people are dissatisfied you know, I talk to them and they have every right to be the sort of bargain that I think many people feel like they strike between themselves and their employer and their country and their society. A lot of those are not holding up their end of the market. Companies do not care for people in the same way that they did just a couple of generations ago. The federal government is not there in the way that I think a lot of people hope it would be in their times of need. So I don't at all pretend that that dissatisfaction is, you know, without good reason. But I also to come back to that, like, all right, we, you know, we gotta focus on the good stories too. I also try to be clear eyed about the fact that there's a lot of good work happening in the world and my job is to cover all of it. I write about the bad stuff, but I also really make an intentional effort to write about the good stuff too. You know, in the introduction again, I have a line, I forget it verbatim. But I basically say, you know, if we don't write stories about people who are doing good work in the world, we sort of forfeit the opportunity to have positive role models. And that's what I believe Chouinard and Patagonia ultimately can be with all their imperfections. They show that there is a different way to do capitalism that doesn't have to suck so bad.
- [28:20]
Dan Harris
So you retain a sense that business can be a source for good, notwithstanding all the many, many problems with capitalism.
- [28:29]
David Gelles
That's right, I do.
- [28:31]
Dan Harris
How do you think about this as a Buddhist? Because I think about this a lot. I mean, I run my own business and if I had to whittle down our goal, it's really about the dissemination of the dharma plus modern science, you know, but ways to do life better. Right there in the Eightfold Path, the Buddha's Cookbook for Enlightenment, there's an entry on right livelihood, you know, like correct or wise livelihood. So I'd just be curious as all of these words flow out of my face, like, what comes to mind for you?
- [29:04]
David Gelles
Yeah, well, I. Right, livelihood was in my mind as you were, as the words were coming out of your face. I mean, I was going to invoke that too. And I think it starts right there that, you know, just goes to the precept of like not doing harm. So certainly I think there are businesses that are out there actively doing bad things in the world. So, like, that's not good. Try not to hold them up as arbiters of great and elevated business. And I think you can see that in like the social media giants, right? You look at the way the public narrative has changed around social media, and as we learn more about what some of these companies knew about how their products were affecting especially young people, especially young girls, you start to understand that what can have the veneer of a sort of fun, youthful company often has a real dark side. I think when it comes to a company like Patagonia, what was so intriguing to me is that as they discovered their own imperfections and as they understood, as Chouinard and his team understood, that some of the products they were making were causing harm, they embarked on these extensive, often expensive efforts to remedy the situation. And that is just really unusual in the course of modern American business. I mean, I've covered business for 20 plus years now. And when most companies realize that they're like mucking up a river in Portugal, they like sweep it under the rug, like pay a PR firm to like make the problem go away and hope no one notices. Like when Patagonia found that kind of stuff, they would put up a blog post about it, shut down the factory and proudly announce that their sales were going to dip by 5% because they weren't going to use them anymore. And that kind of self inquiry and willingness to confront their own problems, I think is a unique, but also very Buddhist in a way. Right. And throughout this conversation I've been thinking about the sort of some parallels between the way this company showed up and some of just like the basic meditation practices that we all go through in the tradition that we're both familiar with, which is, you know, being aware of what's happening, understanding the causes and conditions that allow certain stimulus to arise. And in the cases where those causes and conditions are creating suffering, trying to do the work in a responsible way to allow for less of that stuff to come up. I mean, that's like Patagonia wouldn't say it quite like this, but in my sort of business Buddhist mind, there's some meaningful parallels there. To me.
- [31:47]
Dan Harris
Another parallel would be just begin again in meditation. We start over every time we get distracted. And at Patagonia, if you're fucking up a river, you announce it and find somebody else.
- [31:58]
David Gelles
That's right.
- [32:00]
Dan Harris
The other thing I'm curious about with Patagonia is we talk about the things they're doing that are laudable, like self disclosure, taking care of your employees. They also do a lot of political activism. Listeners may have varying your mileage may vary on that. But is doing good always good for the bottom line or do they pay a price for this stuff?
- [32:21]
David Gelles
This is a great question. There's lots of scholarship around this. You know, I think Chouinard sort of canned answer is that it always works out in the end. I'm not sure that's true. You know, like, maybe if you quantify the brand equity and all that kind of stuff, it's true, but at the end of the day, like, no. Chouinard often would deliberately throttle sales in order to use more responsible products, more responsible ingredients, as it were, in the clothing. I think the most famous instance comes in the late 80s when Chouinard and the team recognized that conventional cotton, which they were using in a ton of their products, is super toxic. At the time it had formaldehyde, the people in their stores were actually getting sick from the off gassing from the new cotton products. They go out and look at a conventional cotton farm and it's just a desolate wasteland. There's tons of industrial chemicals and they're like, this stuff sucks. Like, we're going to move to all organic cotton. This is back in the 80s. There's no organic cotton supply chain. And so what they realize is if they're going to do this, they're going to have to slash their skus, their number of products by like 30%. And it's probably going to mean a reduction in sales of, I don't know, 20%. I'm not looking at the numbers right now, but, you know, big meaningful hit. And Chouinard says, I don't care. We're not using that stuff anymore. I don't care if we lose money. We're going for it and they do it. And so in that sort of instance, I don't think you can say that doing the right thing was ultimately good for business. Right. They took a real hit. Now, again, at the end of the day, in the final accounting, is the fact that they transitioned to organic a net plus? Like, maybe, but I'm always a little cautious about trying to draw too tidy of boxes around some of this. I mean, as we discussed earlier, it's a complicated story and these are complicated questions without neat and tidy answers.
- [34:22]
Dan Harris
Couldn't you argue, though that they paid a price in the short term on some of these things by throttling sales or reducing what you're calling SKUs, but the reputational benefit was enough to drive more customers to them in the long run?
- [34:35]
David Gelles
I think you could, and I tried to leave room for that possibility, but I think it's super hard to know what you can also Say what I know from my reporting, and it just makes the final accounting for Patagonia that much harder, is that this is a company that has deliberately throttled its growth repeatedly over the years simply because Chouinard was uncomfortable with growing too fast. And so even when things were going good and the supply chain was all working out okay, they would limit the number of retailers where they were selling their gear. They would sometimes close retail channels because they didn't want to get too big. They've never sold on Amazon, they've never sold in department stores. And so you look at a company like this, and it just stands in radical contrast to most other corporations, especially consumer products companies that are about, you know, growth no matter what. Right. They'll take growth wherever they can get it. It's just not the case with this one.
- [35:34]
Dan Harris
Just getting back to you for a second. Having marinated in the Patagonia world for quite a while, did it change the way you think about your own right livelihood? Would you throttle your own growth for your beliefs, et cetera, et cetera?
- [35:49]
David Gelles
That's a good one. I haven't thought about it right like that. I don't think it's changed my views on my livelihood. I feel really blessed to be a reporter at the New York Times, which is a really extraordinary institution where we're still allowed to do independent journalism. And I just never take that for granted. And I'm fortunate to still love the craft, still love the work. What reporting this book did change was two things I'd say. One was my own relationship with material goods and my thinking about how much stuff I need. And I think for many of us who sort of have any iota of self reflection, that's probably an ongoing conversation we have with ourselves. But this, this was a moment that accelerated some of my own reflections. And the other, and I would say most profound part of my personal journey over the last few years as I wrote this book was my relationship with nature. For the reporting of this book, I had the opportunity to travel with Chinard to some wild places, you know, deep in the backcountry of Argentina, in some beautiful spots in Wyoming. And I took other trips with other folks in the book that led me to just some of the most spectacular, untouched, remote corners of this planet. And those experiences really had a profound effect on me, even at this stage of my life, even having spent a lot of time in nature. And it's frankly something I'm still like, working through and understanding and processing and trying to figure out how, if at all, my life will change because of it.
- [37:29]
Dan Harris
How could your life change? I mean, I guess you could do your job from anywhere and raise your kids on an organic farm in upstate Vermont.
- [37:36]
David Gelles
I don't think it's like that to me. It's like when I have blocks of time where I can be really deliberate with how I'm spending my time. Am I going to a city to see the sights, or am I, like, going deep into the wilderness with my children to be closer to mountains and away from people? And, of course, it doesn't have to be either or. But I will say that the reporting for this book, and especially a trip I took to Patagonia in South America last year, really kindled in me an even deeper hunger to be very close to nature.
- [38:16]
Dan Harris
If I recall correctly, this was a privately held company, and they were doing. Chouinard and his team were doing things that were contrary to many of the basic instincts in capitalism, like unlimited growth. And you need an exit strategy, you know, meaning sell it to somebody else and make a shit ton of money. Could they have gotten away with this if they were a public company and were, you know, subject to the whims of Wall Street?
- [38:43]
David Gelles
I don't think so.
- [38:44]
Dan Harris
Yeah.
- [38:44]
David Gelles
And I don't think Chouinard would say they could. That's really the secret ingredient that made all this work over the years. And it's why, you know, when I would ask Chouinard what his advice was for other companies, he said, for most companies, it's too late. You know, if you're beholden to shareholders, if you're at the mercy of quarterly earnings reports, like, good luck being ethical. Good luck telling your investors that, like, sorry, we're going to throttle growth because we don't, like, you know, how a factory in Vietnam is treating its laborers? Like, great, we'll find a new CEO. Like, fuck off. It's just not. Not the way most companies work. And so what he would say, the very next beat, however, is that's why he really tries to spend his time thinking about the next generation of companies. Can there be a new class of companies that draw some lessons from this and understand that once you start giving up control, once you start allowing faceless investors to sort of decide what is and isn't right or wrong, it can be very hard to sort of keep your values intact?
- [40:03]
Dan Harris
Do you see that happening? Do you see a new generation of companies emerging?
- [40:06]
David Gelles
There's some right. There's like, there are always green shoots. And I think certainly there's a. There's more of that dialogue and more of this awareness in the business world and in business schools than there was, say, 20 years ago. But we're still talking about, you know, like iota in terms of revenues or in terms of number of companies compared to the vast majority of the business world. You can point to some larger ethical corporations. They're out there that sort of try to do this, but they're the exceptions that prove the rule.
- [40:44]
Dan Harris
Coming up, David talks about how much Runway we have to get our shit together on climate, how to talk to your children about capitalism, advice on how to live well in a capitalist world, and much more. Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes every everything. As the weather cools, I'm swapping in the pieces of my wardrobe that actually get the job done. I'm talking about warm, durable, built to last stuff. And Quint delivers every time with wardrobe staples that will keep you warm through this season. Quint has the kind of fall staples you will actually want to wear on repeat. Like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from just $60 I I have four of those. Classic fit denim and real leather and wool outerwear that looks sharp and holds up. By partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans, Quints cuts out the middlemen to deliver premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. I've got a bunch of Quint's pants. I've also got a lot of Quint staples like underwear and socks. It's really become a go to for me and I love the fact that it's really not as expensive as many of their competitors. Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quince.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's quince.com happier free shipping and 365 day returns. Clints.com happier I'm curious about like how much Runway we have to get our shit together. I'm thinking about, you know, when I was, I used to cover politics when I was in my 20s. A friend of mine was in the legislature and he and they used to talk about good government. People like there were like all these NGOs who were interested in good governance. They used to call them goo goos and there's a lot of people who are interested in good capitalism and you know, both on the, on the nonprofit side and the for profit side. But we are, you know, as you know, because you spend a lot of time thinking about the climate, like we don't have that unlimited time to get our shit together on the climate front. And I'm just curious, like, what level.
- [43:13]
David Gelles
Of optimism you have Again, I, I sort of resist neat and tidy answers to these big existential questions. So here's how I often think about it. It's undeniable that the modern world as we know it and human activity is driving really intense global warming. Warming that recent studies suggest is not only moving quickly, but is actually accelerating. That is already making weather events more severe, making precipitation more intense, making droughts, floods, fires, storms worse. Sea levels are rising. That's also incontrovertible. And the pace of change, which is to say the pace at which we're replacing fossil fuels, which are the primary driver of this warming with clean energy, is super slow. The pace at which we're reforming agricultural practices, which are also responsible for a huge amount of planet warming emissions, that's moving super slow. So we're not moving at a pace that's going to allow us to rapidly change our trajectory. And what that means is we're moving into a world where it's going to be a much hotter planet and we don't know exactly what that's going to look like. In many respects. I think some people believe that the world can go on much as it does today. There are going to be a lot of challenges. There are going to be certain low lying areas that may be uninhabitable, and there's going to be a lot of suffering. As you know, 175 million people in a country like Bangladesh need to adapt to a world in which the majority of their agricultural lands are no longer suitable for growing food. Right. There's big thorny challenges ahead of us. And all that said, I still believe that a hundred years from now people are going to be having conversations. I still believe a hundred years from now there's going to be education and entertainment and commerce. The world's going to be a vastly different place. And we may experience tipping points along the way. And those are big, thorny questions that we just don't know the answer to. What happens if the Gulf Stream collapses? What happens if certain Antarctic ice sheets collapse? We don't know the answers to those questions. But I try not to view the changing climate as a truly existential threat, which is to say threat to the very survival of human civilization. Instead I try to be really clear eyed about the fact that things are changing fast. Our ability to counteract those changes is not nearly keeping up with the pace of change. And that there's a lot of suffering. There's just going to be a lot of suffering for a lot of people, a lot of animals, a lot of communities along the way. And that's life. Right? This is the world we're in right now.
- [46:17]
Dan Harris
I think the Buddha had a few things to say about both change and suffering.
- [46:21]
David Gelles
Yeah.
- [46:24]
Dan Harris
I know you said that in the book. You say that this is not a business self help tome, but do you have any advice for us as individual widgets within the larger capitalistic system that you can deliver after having written this book?
- [46:42]
David Gelles
Sure. But you know, I'm no self help guru like you are, Dan.
- [46:48]
Dan Harris
The fact that you know me is enough for you and anybody to cast to shed a lot of skeptical light on the notion of self help gurus.
- [46:57]
David Gelles
I knew you before you were a guru.
- [46:59]
Dan Harris
Yeah, that's true. You know, my little thing is some people teach from the mountaintop, I teach from the fetal position. So like.
- [47:09]
David Gelles
Here'S what I'd say gets right back to right livelihood. But if you're able to do work that you care about, it's a blessing to be able to be really invested and passionate about the work. Not everyone has that luxury. And so for those that don't, I would say try to do no harm. Right. Like right livelihood doesn't mean you're like fulfilling your higher purpose. But I think it at some level does mean trying to avoid trades that create additional suffering in the world. That's pretty basic stuff. As a consumer, I would offer that people go back to that 2015 Patagonia ad in the New York Times, don't buy this jacket. Right. That was a prompt for reflection about what we actually need, what material goods that we so compulsively surround ourselves with are actually essential. And being really clear eyed and deliberate about how we spend our money and the things we bring into our lives and into our homes, that's a good discipline, a good exercise. Right. And it's not binary. And I am on a journey, my friend. Like, I buy all sorts of stuff I don't need, let me tell you. But I think being mindful of those choices is, is reasonable and important. And finally, I would say get into nature. I mean, I can't tell you what a profound effect it's had on me. Before I was writing this book in my meditation practice. Right. Like some of my most profound Dharmic experiences have been when I've been really close to nature, and even out of the context of Buddhism or the Dharma, I never regret being in the woods. I never regret being in the mountains and sort of being really present with the wind in the trees and the sensation of the sun on my skin. Those are all really priceless experiences to me.
- [49:11]
Dan Harris
I'm curious what you tell your children. Your children may be too young to have this conversation, but I've got a lot of young people who work for me. And the vibe very much is, capitalism is rigged. We, the planet, we the younger generations, we've been screwed by your generation and your parents. And it's very hard to argue with that. I don't want to argue with it, but I do want to do my best to recontextualize, give some perspective, give some empowering advice, like, how do you think all about all that and what will you say to your kids when the time is right?
- [49:45]
David Gelles
Yeah, I mean, they're not wrong, so let's just honor the validity of their perspective. And then my next question is like, all right, so what are we going to do today? And like, if the answer is we're just going to throw our hands up, well, like, that's pretty passive and fatalistic, and I don't want to repeat what I just said, but it's like, how do you want to show up in the world? And we can show up and we can be inured and insensitive to the suffering in the world, or we can show up like bodhisattvas and try to help. And that's. It's as simple as that to me. And there's always plenty of work to do. There's always plenty of people to help. And everyone's got to find their own karma. Everyone's got to figure out what their little role as cogs, the machine, is, and then, God willing, you have to go do it.
- [50:44]
Dan Harris
I remember reading an essay by Jonathan Franzen, I Believe in the New Yorker, about climate change. If it wasn't Franzen, it was some other Jewish novelist. And he basically said something like, you know, climate change is really fucking scary, but if there's good news, it's that way. It's going to provide plenty of opportunities for us to help out and create common cause with one another. And so if I. If I. To sum up, if we take as a foundational question lurking above and throughout this conversation, you know, can capitalism and the dharma coexist? I think what I'm hearing from you, and, you know, I'm saying all this for you to tell me if I'm correct or to expand upon it is, look, this is the system we were born into for whatever karma we may have. This is we came out of wombs into a capitalistic system, and we all have a choice, like how are we going to behave within it. And yes, business can be a source for good, so you don't necessarily need to avoid all interactions with commerce. And yes, you have agency and you have some influence, depending on, you know, your position in the world and do what you can, where you are with what you've got. Is that a decent summation?
- [51:58]
David Gelles
Sure. And everyone's got to find their own way through it. And I'm not sitting here trying to tell people what to do. But listen, this is definitely the system we're born into. No doubt about that. And then again, I just come back to this notion that we have a choice. And, you know, I don't know this is perfectly relevant, but it's what comes to mind, so I'll share it. I'm going to take you back to the year 2000. It was 2000, and I was with Chokini Marinpoche, who was my original Tibetan teacher, and I'm studying with him in India. And I've been on retreat and, you know, doing intensive practice. And a lot of young people at this time were, like, staying in India, right? They would go, they would do some of these retreats and they're like, I'm going to go on this big journey and I forget the term, but they would do, you know, 10,000 recitations of a certain mudra, and they would do 10,000 circumambulations of the body. I forget what that's called, but, right. They would really commit and go deep. And I sort of went to Rinpoche one day and I said, should I do this? Like, should I. Should I stay in India and just keep doing intensive practice? And Rinpoche looked at me as like, where are you born? I was like, I was. I was born in New York City. He's like, you're an American. Go home. And what I took from it, what I took from it was like, that's not my work in the world, right? If I was supposed to be born as a Tibetan monk, I would have been born as a Tibetan monk. But what he was telling me, or at least what I heard, was that I was born where I was for a reason. And not in the sort of deist, like God has a plan for me, but in the sense that like you are born into the world you are born into, and if you are fortunate to have optionality and energy and resources, then his invitation to me as I understood it, was to figure out what right livelihood looked like in that context and in an organic way. And that's the way I sort of try to talk to my kids about their role in the world, which is I'm not trying to tell them exactly what to do, but I try to remind them that we are very blessed and a lot of other people are not as blessed. And when and if we have the opportunity to help, whether that's through our day jobs or through charitable acts, we should take that opportunity.
- [54:28]
Dan Harris
Well said. Or as we say in a Buddhist context. Sadhu David too. Just quick questions as we wrap up here. First, anything that you were hoping to get to that we didn't get to?
- [54:39]
David Gelles
I could talk to you all day, my friend. Like, whatever. It's always fun.
- [54:44]
Dan Harris
Right back at you.
- [54:45]
David Gelles
No, nothing specific. Nothing specific.
- [54:49]
Dan Harris
Finally then, can you just remind everybody of the name of your book and anything else that we should be checking out from you?
- [54:56]
David Gelles
Well, I'm thrilled to have had this conversation. The book is Dirtbag Billionaire How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune and Gave It All Away. It's out now and I hope you check it out.
- [55:11]
Dan Harris
Awesome. Thank you my friend, for making time for this. Great to talk to you as always.
- [55:16]
David Gelles
Thank you for doing it. Really appreciate it. Always a pleasure.
- [55:23]
Dan Harris
Thanks again to David. Always great to talk to him. Don't forget to check out what we what we're doing over on dan harris.com guided meditations that come with all of our Monday Wednesday episodes, plus weekly live video meditation and Q and A sessions. The next one's coming up on October 7th. That will be 7A Salassi in conversation with DJ Kashmir, the executive producer of this show. And of course, Seb and I will be at the Omega Institute the weekend of October 24th for another edition of Meditation Party. Link in the show notes finally, thank you very much to everybody who works so hard on the show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
- [56:21]
David Gelles
Morning Zoe Got Donuts, Jeff Bridges why.
- [56:24]
Dan Harris
Are you still living above our garage?
- [56:26]
David Gelles
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me so Dana.
- [56:33]
Dan Harris
Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera camera system.
- [56:45]
David Gelles
Wow impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [56:52]
Dan Harris
Nice Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [56:54]
David Gelles
T Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for lunch?
- [57:03]
Dan Harris
Dude my work here is done.
- [57:05]
David Gelles
The 24 month bill credits on experience beyond for well qualified customers first tax.
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Dan Harris
And 35 advice connection charge credits and.
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David Gelles
And balance due if you pay off earlier Cancel Finance Agreement iPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto.
- [57:15]
Dan Harris
Paypal taxes and fees required Best mobile.
- [57:17]
David Gelles
Network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove speed test intelligence data 1H 2025 visit t mobile dot com.