Deserted Island with Joel Kim: History and Leadership

Summary

5 Minutes in Church History with Stephen Nichols

Episode: Deserted Island with Joel Kim: History and Leadership
Date: July 2, 2025

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Brief Overview

In this special episode recorded at Ligonier's national conference, host Stephen Nichols sits down with Joel Kim, seminary president and academic, for the recurring “deserted island books” segment. Kim discusses the books he would take with him to an imaginary, theologically-rich deserted island. The conversation playfully explores personal interests, historical insight, and reflections on leadership, history, and reading habits.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Introduction to the “Deserted Island” Challenge

[00:06]–[01:09]

• Nichols sets up the scenario: Joel Kim gets to escape the demands of seminary leadership and academics and spend time on a theologically-loaded deserted island.
• This island already includes Christian classics: Calvin’s Institutes, Augustine’s major works, Luther’s writings, and Jonathan Edwards’ works.

The Essential (Non-Theological) Book

[01:24]–[02:12]

• Kim humorously recounts a colleague’s advice to bring the Army Manual of Survival because of his admitted lack of outdoorsy skills:
  • "You're going to have to take the Army Manual of Survival, because...you have no manual skills and...no outdoor knowledge." — Joel Kim ([01:27])
• Nichols jokes this echoes Dr. R.C. Sproul’s past response, who also said he’d bring a book on getting off a deserted island.
• Resolution: Nichols grants Kim the survival manual as a “bonus” book so he can safely enjoy his other books and eventually return to his family and seminary.

Book #1: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin

[02:27]–[03:39]

• Kim’s first true pick is Team of Rivals, the critically-acclaimed biography of Abraham Lincoln and his cabinet members.
  • Kim highlights his love for biographies and leadership studies:
    • "One of the biographies I really have enjoyed and read a couple times was actually Team of Rivals...set in the time of Abraham Lincoln, who ran against a number of people for the presidency who eventually end up in his cabinet...But in terms of thinking through for the country, how to run and manage a country especially in great turmoil. And I found that to be instructive...but in terms of his own leadership in terms of the country at that point in time." ([02:46]–[03:22])
  • Nichols praises the selection: “It’s a great book. Team of Rivals…That’s a great choice.” ([03:30])

Book #2: The Rising Sun by John Toland

[03:42]–[04:34]

• Kim’s second pick reflects his academic background and personal heritage.
  • Explains his interest in the Asian Theater of WWII, noting the Western focus on the European front often neglects Asian experiences.
  • Shares that his college major was history, with a senior paper on Ancient Athens’ voting:
    • "My major in college was history, which happened to be actually in the ancient history. In particular, my senior paper was on the use of Athenian coin for voting..." ([03:45])
  • Connects The Rising Sun’s subject (Japan’s imperial rise and fall) to his own story, being born in Korea, then under Japanese occupation:
    • "Korea, where I was born, was actually occupied during that time by the imperial ambition of Japan. So it brings in multiple points of interest in history. Personally, that allows me to enjoy that quite a bit." ([04:13])
  • Nichols teases Kim’s scholarly leanings: “Your mere mention of the Athenian coin, as your senior paper, tells me that you really do need that army manual of survival...” ([04:34])

Episode Wrap-Up

[04:44]–end

• Nichols wraps the conversation, promising to revisit Kim’s deserted island selections in a future episode.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You have no manual skills and you certainly don't have any outdoor knowledge. And as a result, you need to make sure that you take [the Army Manual of Survival] along so that you know exactly what can kill you, what would allow you to survive.”
  — Joel Kim ([01:27])

• “You remind me of Dr. Sproul’s answer…he said, ‘How to Get Off a Deserted Island,’ this is the book he would take.”
  — Stephen Nichols ([02:01])

• “Team of Rivals…But in terms of thinking through for the country, how to run and manage a country especially in great turmoil...I found that to be instructive, not just in terms of learning more about Abraham Lincoln, but in terms of his own leadership…”
  — Joel Kim ([02:53])

• “Korea, where I was born, was actually occupied during that time by the imperial ambition of Japan. So it brings in multiple points of interest in history. Personally, that allows me to enjoy that quite a bit.”
  — Joel Kim ([04:13])

• “Your mere mention of the Athenian coin, as your senior paper, tells me that you really do need that army manual of survival...”
  — Stephen Nichols ([04:34])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:06] — Episode setup, guest introduction
• [01:24] — Kim’s humorous case for the Army Manual of Survival
• [02:27] — Book #1: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin
• [03:42] — Book #2: The Rising Sun by John Toland and Kim’s historical background and personal connection
• [04:44] — Episode close, promise of future discussion

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Tone & Personality

• The episode is brief, conversational, and features lighthearted banter. Nichols and Kim both inject humor, personal anecdotes, and warmth, making the subject of church history and leadership both accessible and engaging.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode provides a thoughtful and personal look at the books that have shaped Joel Kim’s perspective as a leader and historian, and offers both listeners and church history enthusiasts an opportunity to ponder what texts would sustain them—intellectually and spiritually—if stranded with only a handful of choices.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome back to another episode of Five Minutes in Church History. Once again, we are recording live from Ligonier's national conference, and one of our speakers this year is a very good friend of ours at Ligonier and at Reformation Bible College, and an academic, a seminary president, no less.

[A]

It was a demotion from teaching in.

[B]

The classroom, from faculty to president. I can relate. Reverend Joel Kim is here. It's good to see you.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah. I'm glad to have you on this. And you're a very busy man. I know you travel a lot. Do you have a seminary you're responsible for? And a lot of pressing duties, so I'm going to give you a favor.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I'm going to let you pull away from your duties for a moment. We're going to send you to a deserted island where you can just enjoy some books. Now, this is an odd deserted island. It's a very theologically informed and enriched desert island. It already has Calvin's Institutes. It has Augustine's classic texts. It has Luther's works. It even has the works of Jonathan Edwards on there.

[A]

So what kind of island is this?

[B]

It's a unique island. It's a very theologically driven island, and it's an imaginary island, but for now, we'll pretend it actually exists. So we're going to send you. The trick is you can only take five books with you. So what are your five books?

[A]

Well, you know, to be honest, I was mentioning the possibility of this podcast to one of my colleagues, and his immediate response to me was, you're going to have to take the Army Manual of Survival, because he said, you have no manual skills and you certainly don't have any outdoor knowledge. And as a result, you need to make sure that you take that along so that you know exactly what can kill you, what would allow you to survive. I realize that this is meant to be more theological in nature, but for survival purposes, to enjoy those theological books, I think I would need to take that.

[B]

You actually remind me of Dr. Sproul's answer when I had Dr. Sproul do this, the first book, he said, well, how to get off a deserted island. This is the book he would take. You know what? I'm going to throw that one out.

[A]

Okay, well, I'll tell you what.

[B]

I'll let you take that as a bonus, because I want you to survive, and I realize that academics really don't have practical skills. So I want you to be able to survive and come back to your seminary and family. So we'll give that as a bonus. So what would be your actual first book?

[A]

You know, this is a difficult one because I'm not exactly sure if I'm one of those guys that reads books over and over again. It's one of those things where I enjoy them. Maybe I'll read them twice, maybe I'll read them three times, but overall, it's not something that I come back to over and over again. But I love biographies.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And one of the biographies I really have enjoyed and read a couple times was actually Team of Rivals.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

By a presidential historian named Doris Goodwin Kearns. And this actually is set in the time of Abraham Lincoln, who ran against a number of people for the presidency who eventually end up in his cabinet, and he is working with his rivals. Thus the team of Rivals. But in terms of thinking through for the country, how to run and manage a country especially in great turmoil. And I found that to be instructive, not just in terms of learning more about Abraham Lincoln, but in terms of his own leadership in terms of the country at that point in time. And so I found great enjoyment in it. It was also very well written.

[B]

It's a great book. Team of Rivals.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's a great choice. You're off to a great start.

[A]

I wouldn't mind reading that over and over and over and over again on a deserted island.

[B]

You can have it. How about your second book?

[A]

The other interest that I have is actually the Asian theater of Second World War. My major in college was history, which happened to be actually in the ancient history. In particular, my senior paper was on the use of Athenian coin for voting. So this doesn't affect us very much in terms of what we do, but. The Rising sun by John Toland.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's about what happened in terms of the rise and fall of the Japanese Empire. And part of the reason for that interest is oftentimes in our both popular media as well as books, the focus is on the European theater, not necessarily the Asian theater. And so that piques my curiosity. But also Korea, where I was born, was actually occupied during that time by the imperial ambition of Japan. So it brings in multiple points of interest in history. Personally, that allows me to enjoy that quite a bit.

[B]

Your mere mention of the Athenian coin, as your senior paper tells me that you really do need that army manual of survival while you're on the deserted island.

[A]

For sure. For sure. Yeah.

[B]

Well, we'll come back for another episode to finish off your deserted island books. That is the Reverend Joel Kim, and I'm Steve Nichols. And thanks for listening to Five Minutes in Church History.