5 Minutes in Church History with Stephen Nichols

Episode: Deserted Island with Joel Kim: History and Leadership
Date: July 2, 2025

Brief Overview

In this special episode recorded at Ligonier's national conference, host Stephen Nichols sits down with Joel Kim, seminary president and academic, for the recurring “deserted island books” segment. Kim discusses the books he would take with him to an imaginary, theologically-rich deserted island. The conversation playfully explores personal interests, historical insight, and reflections on leadership, history, and reading habits.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Introduction to the “Deserted Island” Challenge

[00:06]–[01:09]

• Nichols sets up the scenario: Joel Kim gets to escape the demands of seminary leadership and academics and spend time on a theologically-loaded deserted island.
• This island already includes Christian classics: Calvin’s Institutes, Augustine’s major works, Luther’s writings, and Jonathan Edwards’ works.

The Essential (Non-Theological) Book

[01:24]–[02:12]

• Kim humorously recounts a colleague’s advice to bring the Army Manual of Survival because of his admitted lack of outdoorsy skills:
  • "You're going to have to take the Army Manual of Survival, because...you have no manual skills and...no outdoor knowledge." — Joel Kim ([01:27])
• Nichols jokes this echoes Dr. R.C. Sproul’s past response, who also said he’d bring a book on getting off a deserted island.
• Resolution: Nichols grants Kim the survival manual as a “bonus” book so he can safely enjoy his other books and eventually return to his family and seminary.

Book #1: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin

[02:27]–[03:39]

• Kim’s first true pick is Team of Rivals, the critically-acclaimed biography of Abraham Lincoln and his cabinet members.
  • Kim highlights his love for biographies and leadership studies:
    • "One of the biographies I really have enjoyed and read a couple times was actually Team of Rivals...set in the time of Abraham Lincoln, who ran against a number of people for the presidency who eventually end up in his cabinet...But in terms of thinking through for the country, how to run and manage a country especially in great turmoil. And I found that to be instructive...but in terms of his own leadership in terms of the country at that point in time." ([02:46]–[03:22])
  • Nichols praises the selection: “It’s a great book. Team of Rivals…That’s a great choice.” ([03:30])

Book #2: The Rising Sun by John Toland

[03:42]–[04:34]

• Kim’s second pick reflects his academic background and personal heritage.
  • Explains his interest in the Asian Theater of WWII, noting the Western focus on the European front often neglects Asian experiences.
  • Shares that his college major was history, with a senior paper on Ancient Athens’ voting:
    • "My major in college was history, which happened to be actually in the ancient history. In particular, my senior paper was on the use of Athenian coin for voting..." ([03:45])
  • Connects The Rising Sun’s subject (Japan’s imperial rise and fall) to his own story, being born in Korea, then under Japanese occupation:
    • "Korea, where I was born, was actually occupied during that time by the imperial ambition of Japan. So it brings in multiple points of interest in history. Personally, that allows me to enjoy that quite a bit." ([04:13])
  • Nichols teases Kim’s scholarly leanings: “Your mere mention of the Athenian coin, as your senior paper, tells me that you really do need that army manual of survival...” ([04:34])

Episode Wrap-Up

[04:44]–end

• Nichols wraps the conversation, promising to revisit Kim’s deserted island selections in a future episode.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You have no manual skills and you certainly don't have any outdoor knowledge. And as a result, you need to make sure that you take [the Army Manual of Survival] along so that you know exactly what can kill you, what would allow you to survive.”
  — Joel Kim ([01:27])

• “You remind me of Dr. Sproul’s answer…he said, ‘How to Get Off a Deserted Island,’ this is the book he would take.”
  — Stephen Nichols ([02:01])

• “Team of Rivals…But in terms of thinking through for the country, how to run and manage a country especially in great turmoil...I found that to be instructive, not just in terms of learning more about Abraham Lincoln, but in terms of his own leadership…”
  — Joel Kim ([02:53])

• “Korea, where I was born, was actually occupied during that time by the imperial ambition of Japan. So it brings in multiple points of interest in history. Personally, that allows me to enjoy that quite a bit.”
  — Joel Kim ([04:13])

• “Your mere mention of the Athenian coin, as your senior paper, tells me that you really do need that army manual of survival...”
  — Stephen Nichols ([04:34])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:06] — Episode setup, guest introduction
• [01:24] — Kim’s humorous case for the Army Manual of Survival
• [02:27] — Book #1: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin
• [03:42] — Book #2: The Rising Sun by John Toland and Kim’s historical background and personal connection
• [04:44] — Episode close, promise of future discussion

Tone & Personality

• The episode is brief, conversational, and features lighthearted banter. Nichols and Kim both inject humor, personal anecdotes, and warmth, making the subject of church history and leadership both accessible and engaging.

Summary Takeaway

This episode provides a thoughtful and personal look at the books that have shaped Joel Kim’s perspective as a leader and historian, and offers both listeners and church history enthusiasts an opportunity to ponder what texts would sustain them—intellectually and spiritually—if stranded with only a handful of choices.