Introducing: The Longest Shortest Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: Add to Cart with Kulap Vilaysack & SuChin Pak Episode: Introducing: The Longest Shortest Time Release Date: April 29, 2025

In this compelling episode of Add to Cart, Lemonada Media hosts Kulap Vilaysack and SuChin Pak delve into the intricate and heartfelt journey of CJ Rivers as they navigate the complexities of parenthood. Titled "Introducing: The Longest Shortest Time," the episode provides an intimate look into CJ's experiences, shedding light on the intersection of gender identity and the desire to become a parent.

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1. Introduction to CJ Rivers

[01:37]
CJ Rivers: "My name is CJ Rivers and I work as an underground train driver in London."

CJ Rivers introduces themselves as a non-binary or trans masculine individual with a deep-seated desire to become a parent. Contrary to their childhood dream of driving trains, CJ's true aspiration has always been to raise a child, embodying both monetary and emotional investments in the process.

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2. CJ's Journey to Parenthood

a. Early Attempts and Challenges

[02:03]
Hilary Frank: "CJ specifically has always wanted to be a dad."

Previously featured on The Longest Shortest Time, CJ shared their struggles in making parenthood a reality, especially given biological limitations and societal expectations. Their initial attempt involved setting a six-month deadline to conceive, which marked the beginning of a tumultuous journey.

b. Health Complications and Seeking Treatment

[19:13]
CJ Rivers: "At the beginning of 2020, I thought I'm just gonna pay a clinic. I'm gonna go to a clinic. I'm not gonna use a non-donor. It turns out that I am unqualified to handle semen in any way, shape, or form."

CJ faced severe health issues, including prolonged and painful bleeding episodes, which were initially misinterpreted as potential miscarriages. This prolonged period of uncertainty and medical complications added significant emotional strain to their quest for parenthood.

c. Navigating Fertility Clinics and Legal Hurdles

[27:01]
CJ Rivers: "Most of the fertility clinics have their own sort of internal sperm bank... They just match you to someone who looks like your partner."

CJ's search for suitable clinics led them to Greece, where cultural and legal barriers posed additional challenges. The insistence of some Greek clinics on traditional gender roles and documentation hindered CJ's efforts, highlighting the systemic obstacles faced by transgender individuals seeking fertility treatments.

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3. Pregnancy and Self-Discovery

a. Emotional and Physical Experiences

[35:06]
CJ Rivers: "I really felt great. That was so surprising for me. I really expected to feel absolutely horrible and miserable about my body and my looks."

Pregnancy brought unexpected emotional and physical transformations for CJ. Contrary to their fears of body dysmorphia, CJ experienced increased confidence and a profound connection to their changing body, fostering a positive self-image and resilience.

b. Relationships and Community Reactions

[37:00]
CJ Rivers: "Yeah, some of them didn't [know I was pregnant] when we first met, which again surprised me."

Navigating relationships during pregnancy presented unique challenges. While some partners were supportive, others were unaware of CJ's pregnancy, leading to moments of surprise and adjustment in their interpersonal dynamics.

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4. Birth and Fatherhood

a. The Birth Process

[39:32]
CJ Rivers: "They were sewing me back up. Micah was absolutely covered in gunk... It wasn't magical in that moment."

CJ opted for an elective C-section to align with their gender identity, opting for a home birth team initially. However, unforeseen circumstances and personal experiences led them to pursue a hospital-based delivery, culminating in the birth of their child, Micah.

b. Legal Documentation and Recognition

[46:44]
CJ Rivers: "I got a friend to fill it out for me... It's just a box on the [registration form]."

Despite the emotional affirmation during birth, CJ faced legal challenges in registering Micah's birth. UK regulations required CJ to list themselves as the mother, conflicting with their gender identity. This bureaucratic hurdle necessitated unconventional solutions, such as having a friend complete the paperwork on their behalf.

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5. Life with Micah

a. Parenting Experiences

[48:13]
CJ Rivers: "Micah's whole life right now for me is like an Advent calendar... I just get to open a little door and get a little extra piece of the puzzle of who they are."

Parenting Micah has been an enlightening experience for CJ, filled with daily discoveries and joys. Micah's unique personality and quirks bring endless surprises, enriching CJ's life and redefining their understanding of parenthood.

b. Reflection on the Journey and Future

[48:23]
CJ Rivers: "I have absolutely no expectations for them, but I'm so excited to see the person that they're going to be."

CJ reflects on their parenting philosophy, emphasizing unconditional support and the excitement of watching Micah grow into their own person. This perspective underscores a commitment to fostering Micah's individuality without preconceived notions.

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Notable Quotes

• CJ Rivers on Overcoming Fears:
  [35:09] "I have never been as confident as I was when I was pregnant."

• CJ Rivers on Legal Challenges:
  [46:46] "You're asking me to sign something that's legally binding but also telling me I have to lie on it."

• CJ Rivers on Fatherhood Affirmation:
  [41:22] "When my kid was born, they said, 'You're a dad.' That will always mean a lot to me."

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Conclusion

This episode of Add to Cart offers a profound exploration of CJ Rivers' multifaceted journey to parenthood. It highlights the intersectionality of gender identity, societal expectations, and the unwavering desire to nurture life. Through candid conversations and emotional revelations, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the challenges and triumphs experienced by transgender individuals in their quest for family.

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For More Information:
Visit longestshortesttime.com to view pictures of CJ and Micah, including the heartfelt "dad bod" moment shared during the episode.

Transcript

[Hilary Frank]

Lemonada hey there. Add to cart listeners Hilary Frank Here I host the Longest, Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. We tell surprising, poignant, funny stories about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and kids of all ages. I've talked to Casey Wilson about mothering without a mother. Ross Hubel about having a preemie. W. Kamau Bell came on to ask his mom about her sex life back when he was a kid and she was single. You don't have to be a parent to listen. We talked to plenty of non parents too, like Terry Gross who talked about why she chose to never have kids. Cop was also a guest in 2019 talking about her struggles with fertility and her complicated relationship with her mom. That episode is called Breaking Cycles and and Chairs with Coulop Felisak and it's one of my favorites. You can find any of these episodes by going to the Longest Shortest Time in your podcast app and searching for the guest's name. Please also follow the show to make sure you don't miss an episode. There is so much going on right now in the world of reproductive health and we're gonna cover all of it. Today we bring you another one of my favorite episodes about a remarkable person named CJ Rivers. I hope you ENJ.

[CJ Rivers]

My name is CJ Rivers and I work as an underground train driver in London.

[Hilary Frank]

Growing up, CJ had a dream job and it wasn't driving a train.

[CJ Rivers]

All I really wanted was to be a parent. It's always been something that I've felt like pulled towards just having the chance to have a hand in raising a human being who might turn out to be a wonderful human being. That makes me really excited.

[Hilary Frank]

CJ specifically has always wanted to be a dad.

[CJ Rivers]

I identify as non binary or trans masculine. I guess I present out in the world as male to people who don't know me and that's fine with me.

[Hilary Frank]

CJ has been on this show before. Andrea Solenze interviewed them back in 2018 for an episode called Becoming a Single Dad While trans. It's about CJ's struggles trying to make their dream of becoming a parent a reality. CJ has a uterus and dates other people who have uteruses, so having a baby with a romantic partner wasn't biologically an option. If you haven't heard this story, you've got to check it out. It's one of my favorite, longest, shortest time episodes ever. I'll drop the title in the show notes. Anyway, at the end of that episode, C.J. set a deadline. They would start trying to get pregnant somehow within the next six months. So by March 29th.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, I remember setting the deadline.

[Hilary Frank]

This is the longest, shortest time. I'm Hilary Frank. We are now six years past that deadline and CJ is a dad. But the path getting there was not at all what they had imagined. This is a wild ride, people. And raunchy at times. Probably not one to listen to with the kids. Buckle up and join us for this update. The incredible story of how C.J. rivers landed their dream.

[Vicky Nguyen]

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[Hilary Frank]

Hi, is this an okay time? It's your girl, Dylan Mulvaney, and I am inviting you to my weekly cocktail party and my brand new podcast, the Dylan Hour, brought to you by Lemonada Media. Life is stressful and there is so much darkness in the world. I think we could all use a little bit of trans joy. So join me every week as I interview some of my favorite A list, celebrity friends and gurus, and of course, the dolls while we sip and spill the scalding hot tea. So put your worries aside and join me at the Dylan Hour. You can listen on Apple, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Love ya. When we last heard from cj, they had just started dating someone new, a woman who wasn't sure if she wanted to be a parent. But she was supportive of CJ having a baby while they continued to date. She was like, hey, we're queer. We make our own rules. So CJ set off to figure out how to become a parent on their own, which would be a challenge for anyone. As a trans person, there were extra obstacles.

[CJ Rivers]

For one, I never really wanted to carry a kid because on the gender side of things, I felt embarrassed about it, embarrassed about being seen to do something that's seen as womanly. I think it didn't really fit in with how I saw myself. And I didn't really have any examples of, you know, anybody else that looked like me or felt the same as me gender wise doing that. I Had a few. And I thought it was really cool that they did that, but I didn't really identify with. Sorry, I stopped myself because I'm saying that. But actually, I think I was just scared of giving birth. Like, when I thought about, like, the process of, like, childbirth, like, specifically, like, you know, like, vaginal childbirth, that felt terrifying to me.

[Hilary Frank]

But then CJ's sister gave birth after an unplanned pregnancy, and CJ was right there in the room as the birth partner. CJ felt inspired by their sister's strength, and the idea of carrying a kid felt more possible. They started talking to a friend who they thought could be a potential donor.

[CJ Rivers]

They always knew they wanted to be a donor, so this wasn't just something that they decided on a whim. They knew they didn't want to have kids, but they always knew it's something they'd always thought about, something they'd want to do. And that meant a lot to me.

[Hilary Frank]

What were the qualities in this friend that made you choose them?

[CJ Rivers]

So they're very creative in ways that I am not. Like, they make music and they make art, and I love their art. Also. They're half Trinidadian, and I'm from Trinidad, and that felt really cool to me. But. And we, like, went to a park and we walked around, and it felt really nice. We talked for a long time and we talked about logistics. You know, we talked a lot about, like, exactly what kind of role they would want to play in a kid's life. But also, I kind of had to. I don't want to make them sound. I. I really had to talk them through how sort of the ovulation process worked. And, like, I like, what. What actually happens and what time frames are and what the process might be like, and stuff like that, which, surprisingly, I found with a lot of my friends, a lot of my friends who are, like, socialized as male growing up, I was really surprised at the range of knowledge that they had around the topic. I had some friends, Hillary, who I think at the time were. Had a friend who was 33. And I was just talking to him about the process. He wasn't someone I was considering using as a donor. And he was so confused about the process. And I was trying to find out what was confusing to him. And then it came down to I realized he genuinely thought that when someone has a period once a month, it just all comes out at once. Just all comes out at once over, like half an hour or something, and it's really painful and you get really cranky.

[Hilary Frank]

Oh, wow. That, like, all the blood just happens all at once in one sitting.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that's it until the next one.

[Hilary Frank]

For those who don't know, it usually lasts, say, around five days.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah. Which he was shocked and appalled to find out. He was like, five days? That's so long. Every month. I was like, yeah, dude.

[Hilary Frank]

So you had to explain ovulation to this potential donor.

[CJ Rivers]

Yes. But despite us talking through the logistics of how ovulation works, it felt like every month they didn't really get it. They'd be like, let's do it next week. And I was like, that's not how that works. I hate taking my basal body temperature. Every morning. You set an alarm to wake up and you have, like, this, a thermometer next to your bed. And then when the alarm wakes you up, you try not to move as much as possible. You just kind of, like, sneak this one hand and get the thermometer and put it inside your vagina and then just stay as still as possible while it gets to reading. But A, I was doing it with a partner sleeping next to me, and B, in that minute, I would often just fall asleep. And because of the nature of where the thermometer is, like, the beep wouldn't wake me up. So every morning it was really hit or miss about whether I would actually get that reading. Man.

[Hilary Frank]

I remember doing that and, like, writing it down on the little. Keeping the chart by the bed.

[CJ Rivers]

Yes.

[Hilary Frank]

Writing it down.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah. And then sometimes waking up to find out that what I'd written down was absolute rubbish. Just scribbled on a piece of paper and went down to sleep.

[Hilary Frank]

And what you're lear looking for is a spike, right?

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah. I think your temperature spikes right before you ovulate. Ovulate, yeah.

[Hilary Frank]

And then you have, like, two days, right?

[CJ Rivers]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hilary Frank]

And I think something that a lot of people who don't ovulate don't realize is that the reason you would want to track it is that it could be different every cycle.

[CJ Rivers]

Yes.

[Hilary Frank]

Like, it could be off by just a little bit.

[CJ Rivers]

Yes.

[Hilary Frank]

Or a lot, depending on how regular you are.

[CJ Rivers]

Right. So a lot of this is just getting used to your own body.

[Hilary Frank]

Okay, so you're tracking and then what?

[CJ Rivers]

So I think the process that I was talking about with my friend was they would come to my flat, they would come to my apartment, and we would, like, hang out and maybe have a cup of tea. And then maybe I would go for a nice walk outside or something, and they would do what they needed to do in the bathroom or something, and then they could, if they wanted to, like, let me know. Just leave it there and let me know when they were done.

[Hilary Frank]

Like at a lab.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, yeah, just leave it. I think that was one of the things we considered is you just leave it and then text me and you'll go and we'll come back in. And then that felt really weird. So I think we couldn't figure out if we wanted to come back and be like, thanks, bye, or like, I don't know, it felt really weird to be in the apartment while they were doing it because my flat is really small. But yeah, what we got down to was come over and then have a cup of tea or something and then we'll just. Something will happen and we'll cross paths and then I'll do what I need to do. And I have only ever dated CIS women and I had never really interacted with semen before in my entire life. And I had no idea what to expect. And I'm trying really hard to make sure that it doesn't sound like I'm saying that. I think that it's just gross on its own.

[Hilary Frank]

It's a little bit.

[CJ Rivers]

It's. It's. It was so messy. There was. Oh, and by the way, like, it didn't end up going any of the ways that we talked about. You know, it was raining and then they had like finished work and didn't want to come to my. I ended up going to theirs and then they went down to their bathroom while I was in their room. And then. And then they didn't realize that their phone was connected to the speaker in my room still. So I started hearing what they were listening to and I had to be like, ah, take it off, take it off. It was so awkward. And then they brought it up to the room and then I had like a little syringe that I had to. But I don't want to get too technical about why it was so gross, but I don't know if I even knew what to inspect in terms of consistency. Just putting it up in the syringe and. Yeah, so then I had to just inseminate myself using that. Just insert it into the vagina. I didn't realize that it might leak out. That was a lot. And just all of that was so unpleasant to me.

[Hilary Frank]

What you're describing to me sounds like the experience that a lot of girls and young women have, like the first time they interact with semen.

[CJ Rivers]

I've never thought about that.

[Hilary Frank]

And to imagine that happening when you're a fully grown human sounds like a real shock.

[CJ Rivers]

I'm really trying to make sure I'm not, like, shaming anyone's anatomy.

[Hilary Frank]

No, no. It's like.

[CJ Rivers]

But I just. I didn't know what to expect and it really weirded me out. Yeah. So I had to say to that friend, look, for the sake of our friendship, I need us to not do this process again, because I will hate you because I just want this to be. I want this part of it to be over.

[Hilary Frank]

And so CJ's handling of sperm chapter came to an abrupt close. But a whole new chapter was about to begin. CJ's saga continues in just a minute.

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[Hilary Frank]

CJ's messy situation with their friend happened at the end of 2019. So past that March 2019 deadline and.

[CJ Rivers]

At the beginning of 2020, I think maybe sort of like February 2020, I thought I'm just gonna pay a clinic. I'm gonna go to a clinic. I'm not gonna use a non donor. It turns out that I am unqualified to handle semen in any way, shape or form.

[Hilary Frank]

Leave that to the professionals.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, without like shaking afterwards. So I started calling around CL in other European countries mainly because of the sperm thing. We couldn't like there really were one or two black donors at the time in London who just kept going in and out of stock and made me Think how many kids, you know.

[Hilary Frank]

Right, right. How many kids are running around London.

[CJ Rivers]

Exactly.

[Hilary Frank]

With the stoners.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, okay. But also places like Greece and Spain have such different. They have a lot more, it seems, clinics and sperm banks and stuff like that, and the processes were different and smoother. So I started looking there and had some consultations with a bunch of Greek clinics where we would have a first consultation and I would get on the call and the person would insist on waiting for my partner to turn up. My partner, who was not carrying and also wasn't gonna be a parent. I think the first three clinics I spoke to, I could not get them to understand that I was the one who wanted to get pregnant because they, you know, they were looking at what they saw as a guy. Well, two of them just couldn't get their heads around it and so wanted to do a separate consultation about it. And at that point I was like, nah, never mind. One of them finally understood and then just went, oh, no, no, no, no, no. And ended the call.

[Hilary Frank]

Oh, wow.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, I didn't. I. I don't know if it's really naive of me, but I think I just didn't expect it because I guess I thought they might find it a bit weird, but who cares? Like, they're not even really interacting with my face, you know, like I have the same bits in the bits that they're going to be looking at, so who cares? But no, that wasn't. Wasn't always the case. And then I had one consultation that was absolutely brilliant. She knew exactly what I meant right from the beginning. She was very excited about it. She let me know that her brother worked in, you know, in like lgbt something. I don't remember. But she was really confident and positive about it. And so I thought, great, I found my clinic. And then that was February 2020. So of course Covid hit hard and fast and I had to put a pause on everything. And then this terrifying thing happened, which was that a couple of months after I had decided on that clinic, I started bleeding non stop, like a period, but very heavy, and it lasted for months.

[Hilary Frank]

Wow.

[CJ Rivers]

And I would pass these massive clots like the size of my palm, and I would be in immense pain beforehand. And it happened maybe once a week or once every two weeks. And I was just consistently bleeding that whole time. I had no idea what was happening because of COVID it was really difficult to go see a doctor or even go to the hospital if you weren't in an absolute emergency. But when I passed those clots, I kept Having to go to the hospital, to urgent care. And every time I got there, the first thing they always asked is if I could be having a miscarriage.

[Hilary Frank]

Oh, wow.

[CJ Rivers]

And I think given where I was at and feeling like I was so close to, like, finally even getting started on the process of having a kid and also knowing that the kind of sex I was having would be impossible to result in a pregnancy, but being asked this question basically once a week for months, like, are you sure you're not having a miscarriage? Like, that really scared me and upset me because after a while, I think it made me feel like, I know I'm not having a miscarriage, but is this some kind of sign? Like, is it a sign that I shouldn't be doing this? You know, is my body telling me this is what will happen? You know, or, like, if you keep trying. If you. If you think about trying this or, you know, when. When something like that happens for a period of time and you're unable to figure out why, it's just really. It really, like, beats you. Beats you down.

[Hilary Frank]

Yeah. I mean. Well, I mean, I could imagine that you could imagine, well, is this my future?

[CJ Rivers]

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, I was raised on a small island and, you know, very, like, insular, Christian, like, community, and was raised on ideas like, you know, like, God doesn't like LGBT people, or, you know, like, God will punish you for certain things or send you a sign. And although I didn't believe in that side of Christianity anymore at that time, it still felt. It felt like something that if I admitted to anyone what was going on, even if they didn't say it to my face, they would think that. They would think that I wasn't meant to be a parent. Like, I wasn't meant to do this thing. You know, Like, I. Like, I was clearly being shown that this would be a bad thing for me to do. It was really. It was. It was a hard time.

[Hilary Frank]

Wow. And so then. So what happened?

[CJ Rivers]

So it actually turned out to be a good thing that I had contacted that clinic in Greece because they stayed in contact with me, and I let them know that this thing was happening. And they told me that if I think we were, like, in between, like, the first and second lockdown at the time, there were maybe, like, three lockdowns here in. In London. And they let me know that if I could get to their clinic, they would be able to figure to check out what was going on and help out. And the price of it was relatively just. It was very worth it, especially because you know, the NHS in the UK is a blessing that it exists, free healthcare, but at the best of times, it can be a little bit slow. During COVID it was at a halt because they were really struggling with the amount of COVID patients they had. And so what I was going through just was not much of an emergency, you know, at that time. And so it was. Yeah, for them. Yeah. So, you know, I waited months for just a phone appointment with a. With a gynecologist. So I flew over to Greece, and in a day, they. I think it's called an endoscopy. I had the surgery where they went up there with a camera and they saw loads of polyps and then just really quickly and easily removed them in the same surgery. And I was in Greece for maybe three or four days, and I recovered really quickly from that. They gave me a DVD with a video of the procedure, which is wild.

[Hilary Frank]

Wow.

[CJ Rivers]

I know, right? I just got to see the camera going in and just going, nope, nope. And apparently there were a lot of polyps. But I was grateful that I had got in touch with the clinic because even though it felt hard to finally choose the place and then wait, they were actually the ones who helped me deal with that health issue, explain what it was, and assure me that it would not be a problem for future, you know, tries.

[Hilary Frank]

C.J. flew back to London, waited about a month, and then returned to Greece for.

[CJ Rivers]

Two weeks around the time that I was gonna be ovulating and have an actual official try with the clinic, which was really exciting.

[Hilary Frank]

And so did you have a donor picked out and everything?

[CJ Rivers]

No. So, yeah, good question. The way that the clinics work in Athens, I might. I mean, somebody will be able to tell me if I've mixed it up somehow. But most of the fertility clinics have their own sort of, like, bank, like, internal sperm bank, and it's not one that you can flip through and look at. They do this thing where they just. They're like, we'll match you to someone who looks like your partner. Generally, they'll say. And for me, I remember initially they were really like, yeah, we have. We have loads. We have loads of donors of all the types. And then when I got there, they were like, well, you know, sorry. They're like, you know, some people here are, like, really darker skinned. Like, you know, like, we've got. We're Greek. We've got. We've got some dark skin. And I was like, okay, well, that's not quite. That's just not what you said before. But I at this point, I'm here, whatever. Maybe I have a half Greek baby. That's okay. I'm okay with that. It's not. It was something that was important enough for me to consider, but not a deal breaker completely for me, if that makes sense. But the thing that happened was that the day before I was meant to ovulate in Greece, you have to sign this document. If you're a single woman or a lesbian couple, I think, who are having a baby basically without a man, you have to sign a document. And that's the only document I ever had to sign that had the word woman on it anywhere. And their lawyers refused to sign it.

[Hilary Frank]

They wouldn't sign it. Because you don't identify as a woman.

[CJ Rivers]

Because I don't identify as a woman, and because my British passport says mail on it. And that didn't change. They ended up not doing it. And I really didn't want to go home because middle of lockdown, I didn't think I'd be able to try again for a long time.

[Hilary Frank]

CJ Was desperate to find another place that would help them get pregnant, but they didn't know who to call. They didn't know anyone in Greece except. Well, there was one person, this one.

[CJ Rivers]

Lesbian I met in a bar in Athens for the three days I was there the month before. And I, on a whim, messaged her. And she was so fantastic. She put me in touch with so many people. And eventually she put me in touch with these midwives who do fertility treatments. They're also queer and they do fertility treatments. It's a bit iffy on what the law is about that in Greece, because technically, it's meant to be in a medical establishment. They were absolutely fantastic. I took another month off of work, and I stayed in in Athens for a month more. And they talked me through my medical history and checked all my stuff and showed me how to order the sperm. So I got to choose a donor in the end, but there were still no black donors, so I didn't choose a black donor. But at that point, I was past that.

[Hilary Frank]

After the midwives inseminated cj, they headed back to London, and when we return, that is where we'll pick up.

[Vicky Nguyen]

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[Hilary Frank]

Back at home, London was in lockdown, but CJ's partner was still going out to parties. The relationship began to fall apart because CJ was worried about COVID exposure, especially because they could be pregnant. So while going through a breakup, CJ waited at home alone to find out if the insemination from the Queer Midwives of Athens had worked. Out of anxiety, CJ peed on pregnancy sticks every single day, even though they knew the line wouldn't show up until around two weeks.

[CJ Rivers]

I think on the maybe, maybe like 12th day or something, I saw the faintest line and I was like, okay, I'm not going to tell anybody about this because I shouldn't be peeing on these sticks every day. And so I'm not going to tell this to anybody because it's probably wrong and that's my fault for peeing on pregnancy sticks every day like a weirdo. And then, so then I just put. I did that one stick and then I didn't even do another one that day. Waited until the next day and it came out stronger. And then, and then I freaked out. I panicked.

[Hilary Frank]

What surprised you most about your pregnancy?

[CJ Rivers]

Oh, the thing, what I didn't expect was how I. I felt so hot. Like I said, I was not a very confident person and this isn't a thing that I'm, like, into, but I have never been as confident as I was when I was pregnant. I, firstly, it made me super hairy, which I loved. I was like, is this a thing that CIS women don't talk about because they don't like it? Because I love it.

[Hilary Frank]

Did you have to go off of hormones?

[CJ Rivers]

Yes, I'd been off of hormones for maybe a year at that point.

[Hilary Frank]

So, yeah. So becoming more hairy would have been a surprise.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah. Actually, the first time I saw my mom when I was pregnant, she said, you know, you're not allowed to take those hormones anymore. Right. Because I was so much hairier. Than the last time she saw me.

[Hilary Frank]

Like on your face. Face.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, that's all progesterone, baby. Yeah. I really liked myself and I, like I, I was having, I was having the time of my life. Well, I will say I, I had so much sex when I was pregnant, probably more sex than I'd had in the like last two years. I just really, I don't know, I felt really great. That was so surprising for me. I really expected to feel absolutely horrible and miserable about my body and my looks and I think felt like I've always been fat, right. I've always been like in a bigger body. I've always had a big belly. I don't know if there's something about the fact that I had an. Not an excuse, but it was doing something. I was like, yeah, my belly is big. I'm growing a person in here. What do you expect? Like, I guess like giving that part of my body that I'd always been self conscious about a purpose. Just completely took away the self consciousness about it. And then suddenly everything else about myself felt fine.

[Hilary Frank]

And the people you were hooking up with, I assume they knew you were pregnant.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah. But yeah, some of them didn't when we first met, which again surprised me. But then I told them and they were fine with it and. Yeah, wasn't an issue. Wasn't an issue for them or me. I love being queer.

[Hilary Frank]

There's an Instagram post you did when you were 35 weeks pregnant. You're not wearing a shirt in this picture. You've got tattoos on your chest, you've got scars from your top surgery and you've got a big pregnant belly. And there are words written across your belly. It looks like you wrote them in marker in like a Sharpie or something. Can you tell us what you wrote and what was going through your head in that moment?

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, I wrote the words dad bod on my belly. Yeah. I think at the time I was thinking about multiple things about how I wasn't doing like a pregnancy shoot because I couldn't think of a way that that wouldn't make me feel really self conscious and dysphoric pregnancy shoot.

[Hilary Frank]

Like you weren't, you weren't getting your picture taken by a professional photographer, you.

[CJ Rivers]

Know, in, in like a bath of milk with flowers around my head, you know, or like in a forest. Ew. People love those. I've seen so many of those. Yeah. And I thought, I do want to document this somehow. I do want to picture, you know, and then Also, at the same time, I was thinking about everyone was really into dad bods, by which they just meant like, you know, slightly bigger guys with like bare bellies or whatever. And I just thought, well, I don't know, this is a dad bod because I'm gonna be a dad even if I'm fully pregnant. And yeah, on a whim, I just kind of did that and took the picture. I told myself that was my pregnancy photo shoot, just taking one picture in the mirror.

[Hilary Frank]

What was it like for you in public to present as a pregnant man?

[CJ Rivers]

I think people really see what they want to see, which is something I had learned from just being trans in the world. So if someone perceives you as a man on their initial meeting of you, it's going to take a lot for them to venture away from that. So I started wearing. It became kind of a running joke. I started wearing button up shirts with a sweater vest over it because I kept saying, I think people just think I'm a fat English teacher. Like.

[Hilary Frank]

So I know you were anxious about what childbirth would be like.

[CJ Rivers]

Yes.

[Hilary Frank]

How did that go for you?

[CJ Rivers]

So when I decided that I was going to carry, I thought, right, I'm going to have an elective C section. I'm just going to say to them, I can't, I can't do it for gender reasons, for fair reasons, I'm not going to do it. You know, they were absolutely fine with the idea of me doing an elective C section, but what happened was because of lockdown and everything, I was advised that it would be better for me to go with a home birth team, because in the uk, you know, you get to decide how you want to give birth and generally, you know, that's accommodated. And there was a home birth team that would come to your home for your appointments and become familiar with your home and with you. And rather than you having to go into the hospital. And I really got into the idea of it. Like at the time hospitals were, you know, the rules were nobody really knew. Like, maybe they would let someone in, maybe not. Maybe if you had Covid, you had to give birth on your own, maybe not. There were so many stories that I got really scared and I thought, the only way I can control who's here is if I do it in my home. And especially having just gone through a breakup, which was unexpected and felt surprising to me during a pregnancy, I was really scared of ending up in a situation where I started to give birth and I was on my own. So I planned to have a pool Birth.

[Hilary Frank]

CJ got the pool, did a whole test run in their apartment. And then CJ got terrible news that someone they knew whose baby was due around the same time as CJ's, had lost the pregnancy.

[CJ Rivers]

And it freaked me out. It completely freaked me out. And then I just decided, nope, back to the original plan. I'm going to have an elective C section, and I'm gonna do it now. I'm just gonna get this baby out before anything happens. And the doctors agreed with that. They were like, yeah, I mean, you're basically full term. If you wanna have this baby now, you can. So they said, house Friday. And I said, yeah, sure.

[Hilary Frank]

Did you have any friend come with you or anything?

[CJ Rivers]

Yes. So my friend Ali stayed with me for two weeks before my due date, just in case, and he came with me. He was there the whole time. They dressed him up in scrubs and a mask, and. And he was. He was there the entire time. And I'm really grateful to him for that. Going into the. Going into the. The theater where they, you know, got me ready to do the C section, Everyone who came into the room would say to me, are you excited to be a dad? Are you excited to be a dad? And that I absolutely loved that because it was just so natural. Nobody was trying too hard. And when my kid was born, they, like, picked them up and showed them to me, and then they said, you're a dad. Congratulations, you're a dad. And I. There's nothing. I'm getting emotional even just saying it, but I think I just knew that I would have a journey of people trying to deny, you know, my dadhood, you know, including my own mom, who still refuses to call me my kid's dad. But in that moment, the first time I met my kid, for the first words I heard to be just so affirming of what I was going through and who I was, that. That will always mean a lot to me.

[Hilary Frank]

And telling you you're a dad, that has been your lifelong dream.

[CJ Rivers]

That's all I've ever wanted. My whole life. That's all I've ever wanted.

[Hilary Frank]

And what did you name your baby?

[CJ Rivers]

My baby is called Micah.

[Hilary Frank]

And what pronouns are you using for Micah?

[CJ Rivers]

So I use they. Them for Micah, which is surprising to me. That wasn't the plan initially, but something about announcing their gender online or their sex online felt weird suddenly when I was about to announce that I'd given birth. So I just thought I'd hold back on it for a while, and that just felt the most natural and still does. But I also. I never correct anybody on any pronouns for them because I don't think there's any correct pronouns for them right now until they express having a preference.

[Hilary Frank]

So what was it like for you to hold Micah for the first time and, like, know that you had achieved this dream?

[CJ Rivers]

Surprisingly awkward. I. I feel like I was watching way too much tv, because I feel like on tv, regardless of whether you've had a C section or not, you're, like, kind of propped up, and then they give you the baby, and then it's magical. Whereas, like, I was flat on my back for the first time in, like, months, because, you know, third trimester, you can't really lie flat on your back or you shouldn't. I was flat on my back. I still had a curtain up, like, above my belly. They were still, like, sewing me back up. Micah was absolutely covered in gunk. And then because I only really had half of my chest, they kind of awkwardly put them on my chest, but on my face. On my chest.

[Hilary Frank]

You had, like, a baby draped over your face?

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, just a wriggly, slimy baby halfway on my face. I couldn't move too much because I was still being sewn up. And I really wanted it to be magical, but it wasn't magical in that moment. But then I handed Micah over to Ali, and I saw Ali holding them, and that was the moment that it hit me, like, seeing this person who absolutely didn't have to be there, you know, just hold my kid and look at them so lovingly, you know, like, as if he'd been waiting for them all his life, and he doesn't even want to have kids. And I think that was the first time that it hit me, like, oh, okay, it's happening.

[Hilary Frank]

So I saw another Instagram post that you made two months after Micah was born, where you said you had been putting off registering their birth.

[CJ Rivers]

Yes.

[Hilary Frank]

Can you talk about why?

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah. I really didn't want to engage with the admin side of registering their birth or anything like that, because despite the fantastic experience I had at the hospital with being sort of audibly affirmed in that moment and being called a dad, then the way it works in the UK is still that if you give birth to a child, then you have to be listed as that child's mother, regardless of. We have a thing here called a gender recognition certificate, which means that if you. You know, if you have one of those, you are legally, for all intents and purposes, that gender. But for some reason, even, like, for some reason, even that doesn't allow you to exist as anything else on your child's birth certificate, except for mother, which is an issue for a lot of people. You know, people who are surrogates, for instance, don't. They often don't want to be listed as mother on the birth certificate, but they have to. And then when they hand the child over, then those other parents get sort of a cover birth certificate that says parent one and parent two. And I remember saying, well, why can't I get one that says parent two? It exists. It's there. It's right there. Just give me that form. But that's not allowed.

[Hilary Frank]

Yeah. So I think on the form that you were showing on Instagram, there was a question that said, are you the baby's mother? Yes. And you just couldn't bring yourself, couldn't answer it, to say yes. And if you don't say yes, then can you not register the baby?

[CJ Rivers]

You can't even continue with the appointment to do the registration. That was just to book the registration.

[Hilary Frank]

Wow. So what did you do?

[CJ Rivers]

I got a friend to fill it out for me, which sounds so silly. It's just a box on the. You know, I was like, you're. You're asking me to sign something that's legally binding but also telling me I have to lie on it. I can't continue with this unless I lie. But also I have to register the baby because you say so. That just doesn't feel right. But I, you know, it is what it is. I had to do that.

[Hilary Frank]

How old is Micah now?

[CJ Rivers]

Micah's now three.

[Hilary Frank]

One of the things I love most about kids is that they're total weirdos.

[CJ Rivers]

Such weirdos. Oh, my goodness.

[Hilary Frank]

So what are some of the fun weird things that Micah has done or said?

[CJ Rivers]

Micah just will just make up words that don't sound like baby words. They are words. It's the kind of thing where in a normal conversation, they'll be talking normally, and you'll just hear a word and be like, oh, I missed that. What did you say? And they'll repeat it, and it's complete nonsense, which they know. But that has led to the funniest toy names. So they have a baby doll who they've told me is a girl. I said, oh, okay, what's her name? And they said, Steve Barbecue. And that was it. That's Baby Steve Barbecue, the girl doll. Steve Barbecue has an older brother called Kiwi and a sister called Sister.

[Hilary Frank]

Do you feel like your image that you had in your head of becoming a dad and, like, why you wanted it so much. Is living up to the dream?

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah, it really is. I was so scared that it wouldn't like I loved. So I loved every second of newborn hood.

[Hilary Frank]

What did you love about newborn time?

[CJ Rivers]

Oh, they're basically just a potato. You can do anything you want. They barely hear any sounds. You put them on a. A blanket on the floor, and then they're just staring at the light and they're like, I could just wash the dishes and look at them behind me just wriggling on the floor like a potato. That was magical. But also. Oh, when they learn to smile for the okay, that's newborn was just magical. Even with the lack of sleep, you know, they slept in like a little thing a little next to me bed. So I got so in tune with them, I could hear their breathing change from the next room and know they were going to wake up.

[Hilary Frank]

So you loved infanthood and then toddlerhood.

[CJ Rivers]

Loved toddlerhood, yeah. I feel like I. When I grew up, I think I felt very much like I was expected to be. There was something that I needed to fit into. There was an expectation that I. That. That always already there for me, and I could live up to that or I could not. And I think the way I feel about being a dad to Micah is that I have absolutely no expectations for them, but I'm so excited to see the person that they're going to be and I. And that's not going to get revealed to me, like, all at once. Right. But every single day that they wake up, I feel like I get a little tiny bit more of the picture. Like, do you know what an Advent calendar is?

[Hilary Frank]

Yes. I've never had one myself, but I know what they are.

[CJ Rivers]

Yeah. I'd never had one before I moved to this country. Micah just has their first one ever. And in the days leading up to Christmas, every day, you get to open a little door, and sometimes there's a chocolate or a little toy. I feel like Micah's whole life right now for me is like an Advent calendar for me. Like, every day, I just get to open a tiny little door and just get a little extra piece of the puzzle of who they are or are going to be as a person.

[Hilary Frank]

Talking to CJ for me has been like the Advent calendar I never had. Each time I asked a question, I'd open a little door and get a delightful surprise. I hope you've enjoyed this story as much as I have. We've got amazing pictures of CJ and Micah, including the incredible dad bod shot at our website longestshortesttime.com this episode was produced by me, Hilary Frank, with support from Elizabeth Nakano. Our Technical Director is Michael Rayfiel. Music composed by Alison Layton Brown and performed by hotmoms.gov Special thanks to Andrea Solenzi and Jackie Sagiko. Next time on the Longest Shortest Time. I mean, it just sounds very dystopian.

[CJ Rivers]

I mean, if you were sort of.

[Hilary Frank]

You know, didn't know anything about planet Earth and sort of dropped down and watched people labor and give birth here and saw that those doing that had to advocate to not be tethered to a leash while doing it. I mean, it just sounds ridiculous. Author Allison Yarrow joins us to talk about her eye opening book Birth the Insidious Power of Men Over Motherhood. If you have given birth or plan on giving birth, and especially if you will ever be a birth partner, you will not want to miss this episode. So do this. Go into your podcast app where you're listening right now and make sure you're following the Longest Shortest Time. It's just the click of a button. While you're there, give us a rating and a review. And if you want to suggest story ideas to us, be a part of our community and generally support our work, join us at lstplusplus. It's easy, just go to longest shortest time.comclub.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Want more from your favorite Lemonada Media podcast? While supporting the shows that help make life suck less, subscribe to Lemonada Premium today. As a subscriber, you'll unlock a exclusive bonus content like never before heard interviews, behind the scenes moments, bonus episodes, and so much more. It's easy to sign up no matter what podcast app you use on Apple, you can just click the Lemonada logo in the Apple podcast app and hit subscribe. For all other podcast apps, head to Lemonada SupportingCast FM to subscribe. That's Lemonada SupportingCast FM.

[CJ Rivers]

Does your office have an evil donut bringer? Do you have a personal canary in a coal mine? Are you guilty of over apologizing?

[Hilary Frank]

I'm Liz Craft.

[CJ Rivers]

And I'm Sarah Fain. We're television writers and showrunners and the hosts of Happier in Hollywood, a podcast where we share all the juicy details of our career in television and offer tips and strategies that will help you and us have an even more successful, satisfying and fun career.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Whether you're in Hollywood, Dollywood, or somewhere in between.

[CJ Rivers]

Check out Happier in Hollywood every Thursday from Lemonada Media.