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People Pleasing & ADHD: When "Yes" is a Nervous-System Response and How to Stop with Anita Sandoval, LPC - EP 555
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- [00:00]
A
Adhd Rewired Episode 555 Since 2014, this has been the podcast for ADHD adults who have really good intentions and a slightly wandering attention. I'm Eric Tibbers. I'm a licensed clinical social worker by training and a coach by design. I'm your host and I have adhd. ADHD Rewired is more than just a podcast. You can learn about our coaching and accountability groups, our virtual co working community, and more, all@adhd Rewired.com we are wired for connection and you are not alone. Learn more about our offerings, including our quarterly live Q&As. Get additional resources for every episode, including links to any resources we mention on today's show. You can support us on Patreon, sign up for our email newsletter and more, all@adhd Rewired.com and if this is your first time listening, welcome. Don't forget to hit, subscribe or follow on your podcast app so you never miss an episode. We know that starting is the hardest part, so let's get started. Hey everyone. Before we get into today's fabulous conversation all about people pleasing, I just posted a survey on our coaching group page. If you're interested in an evening coaching group starting early fall at a budget friendly rate or you want to share what time you wish we offered future coaching groups, go now to coaching Rewired.com and complete the survey. We're also offering a raffle worth $240 for completing it. Details at the break and at the website coaching Rewired.com welcome back to another episode of ADHD Rewired. Today I am joined by Anita Sandovo. Anita is a Licensed professional counselor, supervisor, EMDR certified, and a certified clinical services provider in ADHD. Anita brings over 14 years of experience to her work at Positive Awakenings Counseling Center. She is also the author of Broken Chains How I Broke the Cycle of Abuse and Neglect and Went From Victim to Survivor, which is available in both English and Spanish. And when she's not writing or counseling, you'll find her hosting her podcast, Empowering Women in Conversations, where she dives into real, meaningful dialogue to help women, especially those who identify as people pleasers, become more empowered, resilient and authentic in their lives and relationships. Anita, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:33]
B
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited and honored to be on your show and I love what you said with the CCSP provider. For those that don't know, I had to take several workshops so that I could be at least more knowledgeable in adhd. And that moment When I saw the different people who were given the workshops, including you, it just opened my eyes and I was like, wait a second, what if this people pleasing at times could be part of a neuroadaptive response and ADHD response as well. And that's when I said, okay, I'm going to get diagnosed as adhd, because I knew it runs in the family, went and talked to my doctor, went to a psychiatrist and said, this is where I'm coming from. And they're like, oh yeah, ADHD inattentive. And then I went ahead and also had my daughter tested again and then she now got her diagnosis. And I'm just here to spread the word within my community and anyone else when it comes to the subject of people pleasing and appeasing in women and of course the overlap with adhd.
- [03:43]
A
So where do you think the origin of people pleasing comes from?
- [03:49]
B
Well, for me, when I was studying with counseling, people would talk about the Stockholm syndrome. Oh, they're falling in love with the perpetrator. And in my practice I used to have a contract with CPS at Department of Family Services and I would counsel the people that were the product of whatever type of abuse. And then of course a non offending parent and one of the common questions they would tell me is, is well, if they did this, how come they still like the person? How come they would still talk to the person? And I was just like, okay, I know the Stockholm syndrome when they keep them in prison, but they didn't. And I'm like, something's going on. I just love research, I love reading. People pleasing came about and I said wait a second. And then I started reading more and getting more information of it. And that's when I realized I myself come from a third generation of abuse and neglect and, and I started seeing those characteristics of people pleasing and appeasing. And then presently when I was going through my own journey of healing and processing, and let me tell you, it is something that is barely known, but it is huge. And it's unfortunate that it's not in the dsm. But hypothetically speaking, if it were in the dsm, I would define it as people pleasing behavior pattern because it's a pattern of consistency and this is where it's a compulsion, where you prioritize other people's needs, emotions at the approval at the expense of your own well being, your own identity, your own autonomy.
- [05:34]
A
Would you say there's a difference between being conflict avoidance and people pleasing? Or would you say there's kind of a big sort of Venn diagram. Or it's more like an overlapping circ.
- [05:44]
B
Oh, I love how you said that. Okay, so the characteristics, because I'm going to get to that with the avoidant. So the characteristics, the excessive difficulty saying no. Oh my gosh, the guilt, the shame, cultural programming, women. You're not supposed to say no. You have to be appeasing and always say yes. Chronic self monitoring of your what's going on. Always casing who's happy, who's not trying to emotionally make everybody happy.
- [06:12]
A
Sounds like hyper vigilance.
- [06:13]
B
Super yes, because it's part of the autonomic nervous system. It's fight, flight, freeze. Some people call it fawn, but I call it people pleasing a piece. Because there has to be somebody else to be able to conduct this behavior. You're not going to be people pleasing yourself because that's the problem. We don't do self care over apologizing. And so what ends up happening? People assume. Well, it could be avoidant behavior. Well yeah, they both involve the fear of disproval. But people pleasers over accommodate rather than avoid.
- [06:48]
A
Both over accommodate.
- [06:52]
B
Yeah, rather than. And then people might credit be a subtype of a personality disorder. But not really because dependent personality. What happens with people pleasers, they tend to attach with narcissists, unbeknownst to them, they don't do it on purpose, but this is where they come up with failed relationships. My mother was a victim narcissist, hence I was a people pleaser because I had to make sure she was happy to make sure the household felt safe. And so what is a narcissist going to do? Always be around people, who's going to cater to them and they like bread and butter, know who the people pleasers are. And so dependent personality disorder, yes, people pleasers can function independently, but they differ emotionally and the dependence is more pervasive. So this is more like the emotional stability of wanting to feel safe. So that's the difference. There is a codependency feature there, but it's not really mostly dependent. They can be independent. That's why you have these high functioning people pleasers always doing something. So does that make sense?
- [08:08]
A
It does, it does. Borderline personality disorder, because that's that can also create these tendencies in others. Isn't that right?
- [08:15]
B
Ooh, that's a good one. So it can overlap, but it lacks the identity instability and the relational validity of it. The borderline technically is a personality disorder and that's where your internal view of perspective of one thing and your outside behaviors don't match of societal functioning. And so with people pleasing, you do function in society and the moods is less when it comes to the people pleasing. But when it comes to borderline it may last like a couple more days. So think of it as a woman who has they may have rejection sensitive dysphoria which we can talk about in a bit. And let's say a boss gave them a neutral criticism and they're going to believe I failed. But the next day she's emotionally regulated, back to functioning, maybe even want to over function. But then you take a woman with BPD borderline personality disorder, they might spiral for days after the same feedback. They may feel unloved, switching between blaming the boss, blaming themselves, engaging in self harming or relational sabotage. So they may involve hypersensitivity to rejection. But the women, they tend to often mask with the people pleasing and they struggle with the emotional regulation. And keeping in mind an RSD is a neurological pain response, not a personality disorder. So yeah, we just want to keep that in mind. And people pleasing is a survival, it's a survival skill.
- [10:05]
A
What's the difference between people pleasing and masking?
- [10:08]
B
Ooh, yes, that's such a good question. And I remember when we spoke last time and you mentioned masking, I'm like yes, there's an overload up. But then I was just like let me really research how it differs because that's just like the neuro in me. Everybody has that one thing, this is my thing and I have to explore so many avenues. So when you said masking, great question. And autism masking, immunodivergence, masking people pleasing is a social masking. It does overlap, but it's a social masking response in neurodivergence people. But it's not a fixed trait.
- [10:47]
A
Okay, what about the sort of the self awareness aspect of both of those?
- [10:53]
B
That's with really anything. The more aware you are, the more compassionate you are with your behaviors and you can. So with neurodivergence you can adapt the environment for you to help you with people pleasing. It's a behavior, it's a habit, it's not really ingrained in our DNA. So we can really make our changes within our habits to make a change like setting boundaries, speaking assertively. So that's the difference when it comes to that with masking depending on the neurodivergence. Like for me I cannot tell literal from figurative, you know, and that's just my part of the brain that struggles with that processing. And that's okay. But when You're a people pleaser. The issue isn't in the processing. The issue is in the wanting to survive. And once you regulate that nervous system, the processing is there.
- [11:50]
A
And it really is all like nervous system responses.
- [11:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, I mentioned the trauma growing up. When it comes to that, we got to keep in mind, when it comes to women or men, doesn't matter. But research, when it comes to people pleasing or adhd, trauma and increased risk of adhd, the ACE score, adverse childhood experience score, people noticed doing research many years back. I think it was in the 80s, if not earlier. And they're like, how come these kids are moving forward, being successful, but these kids are not? They're getting the same things. But then they realized that there was certain environments that they were exposed to that caused adverse reactions and then left them at risk in different things, be it medical, be it neurological. And so, yes, there's great patterns that the more adversity that there was, the higher the ADHD symptom load. It mimics the same part of the brain, emotional dysregulation, when it comes to trauma as well. Inattention, impulsivity. It could stem from ptsd, neglect. We have the same circuits with the dopamines, the serotonins, and so we have to also decipher. This is why I love the fact that I already know I'm adhd. How can we discern is this neurological or is this trauma imposed trauma informed care that I would need? And then we look at the symptoms, we start creating some mindfulness, and then we try to then adapt, depending on the behavior, but depending also on the symptom.
- [13:34]
A
Okay. And going back to the idea of self awareness around people pleasing, I think over the last four or five years, I became significantly more aware. So I've been divorced rough five years and I didn't think that I was the conflict avoidant in a relationship until I started working with a really good therapist and then realized that, oh, I was just as much part of the problem as she was. People pleasing or with being conflict avoidant. I think part of the journey of unmasking and realizing that I've been masking and not even realizing how much I had been masking. And so this, it's almost like this trifecta of conflict avoidance, people pleasing and masking. How do you help clients take the mask off to become more aware of these people pleasing tendencies?
- [14:22]
B
Such a great question. The conflict avoidant, that's like one of the characteristics of people pleasing because they want to maintain the peace. They can't tolerate. There's low tolerance distress that the nervous system can't manage. So they're just ready to appease and go, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever you want. Yes. So that is part of the characteristic. So what I. This is my mole, this is my special sauce. I would use this with my patients. Oh my gosh, this is happening. And then I would use my knowledge and then instill in the people pleasing. And what I came across is a model where I use the stages of change. So for those that just to kind of talk about that is whenever someone is going through some type of substance abuse, they go through something called stages of change to see where they're at when it comes to the withdrawal, remission, relapse, da, da da. But then I also look together at the stages of grief. And so lo and behold, I created my model of how people pleasing can be healed into being empowered, resilient and authentic because I had to build a bridge. We can't just go from people pleasing chronically for decades and then, oh yeah, here I am healed. No, it doesn't happen. And sorry, there's no medication that's going to teach you this. Oh, I'm going to change in this behavior because I took a medication. It doesn't work that way. So I think of Star wars because I love Star Wars. Good evil Yoda would say, in order to create, we must destroy. And so I created the model of the stages of change in parallel of the stages of grief. So we teeter, totter because one of the things our body's not used to is changed. And if you're near divergent, even worse. And this is why I highly believe in therapy, especially if you're wanting to create a change. And the first step is the unawareness stage. You're unsure, you don't even know what you said. You're like, oh, I thought she was the problem. And let me tell you, I've had patients come into my office going, yeah, we're going through a divorce. And I'm just here so you could tell me that it's her fault. Not saying you did that, but yeah, I'm just saying this is what I get from others. And so what ended up happening, they come in for whatever other reason, and then they start realizing, oh, I'm the problem. And I say, but it's a good thing. You want to be the problem so you could be the solution. That's where the first step is the unaware to the awareness. And then the stage of grief is shock and denial. And you're Like I am actually this. It was actually my fault. I can't believe this. So that's the first stage. The second stage is the awareness stage. And this is where you're aware, okay, I'm a people pleaser. What are the characteristics? You start figuring out everything that you've done, you know, where it came from, you know, society, school. You know school too, because it's like, oh, here you get a candy, here you get a ribbon, here you get a trophy. Do what I say and look at how you made so and so feel. I'm not responsible for them, but you know, it is what it is. So awareness stage, stages of grief, pain and guilt. I can't believe I people pleased. And then after the awareness stage, you have the ready for change. This is where you decide, am I going to change or am I not? You can stay a people pleaser if you want. Pick your poison, pick your pain, lose your identity at the expense of pleasing others. Burnout, all those stuff. Or let's get ready to this unknown journey. It's going to be yucky and sucky, but at the end of it you're going to see a different transformation. This is where they say, I'm ready for change. In the other part stages of grief, anger and bargaining. Do I really need to change? What if I can people please this person? The teeter totter, they usually stay stuck here for a bit. And then after that you have the action stage. This is where you actually have little birdie come out and fly. I have to do the boundaries and I have to do this and that by then. The first three steps is where we become empowered. Awareness. The second middle part of this is where you become resilient. You use the calming techniques to become empowered to maintain that change. We build the nervous system bottom up and we start going, okay, we got this moment of distress to a moment of relief. Let's do it together with the counseling to do the action that needs to be done. Do the boundaries slow baby step. Boundaries come back. I can't believe I said no. And what's in the stage of grief we have in the action stage, we have depression and loneliness. And the reason why is because it would make everybody happy. And I had all these friends. Were they really your friends or was it the service you provided? You got to brave the wilderness because everything's going to change and everything's going to shed and you're reflecting. This is the part where they might relapse because they're changing and then the body might come in shock because the body's not used to the change. And that's where the body starts being sad, because you're not doing those old habits anymore. You're now doing the new habits. But it's reflecting what you used to do. And it's lonely because it wants to go back to that, but it isn't.
- [20:08]
A
It'd be like homeostasis.
- [20:10]
B
Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. Think of it like having a fever when you have a cold because you have a foreign in your body. And it's like, whoa, wait, what? I'm actually putting boundaries. And then it's maintaining after that and sustaining the change. Fine. You did one boundary, two boundaries. And this always gets my patience. They're like, okay, I already did a boundary. The other people, they are respecting their boundaries. What happens after a month or two? Everything's great, right? No more therapy. We're good. They come back in three months. Oh, my God, my partner's doing the same thing over again. I'm like, are you utilizing the techniques and skills that were given? They're like, no, I don't need it anymore because everything's changed. And I'm like, this is a lifetime transformation. It's like I always turn to eating. Just because you ate a salad and lost all this weight doesn't mean you stop eating your salads and their proteins and all that stuff. You eat junky food, you're going to get fat, diabetes, cholesterol, just the way of the world. And the same thing applies with behavioral habits. What you do is what you're going to get. And so it's about maintaining and sustaining change. And when you do that, this is where in the stages of grief, you have the upward turn. You start seeing the actual within time and being consistent. The difference and the change, you start seeing new friendships, new support groups. You start seeing just anew of everything. Because when you change inside, everything outside will change, but you got to be consistent with it.
- [21:49]
A
Time and effort, which isn't always our strength. With adhd. It's such important work, though, especially if there are people in our lives who present as narcissists. It's something that I've gone through with my mother, who I don't really talk to, you know, and it's interesting. I've been doing. I'm now coming up to my two year anniversary of doing emdr. Man, it is. I always tell people I hate the therapy. And it's the most effective therapy I've ever done by a long shot. My partner that I'm with, we refer to our relationship and call it our 1.0 and our 2.0 relationship because we broke up for a while. And it was partially because I, I was getting dysregulated by her dysregulation and recognizing that when she would get emotional, that was a trigger to me because I had a mom who would often use emotions as a form of manipulation. So I immediately got triggered and pulled into it and I was immediately like, oh no, what did I do? And the self blame and it's really been amazing. And she, if she's struggling with something, it is not even going through my mind at all. All what did I do? Right. I'm just able to hold space and it's a really profound difference. And while the work that I've done to get here has been super hard, it's harder than I thought it would be. And I thought it would be hard, but it's been so worth it because I feel like I have been taking all the layers of bullshit just setting them down and I don't need that anymore. That is no longer serving me. I, I thought I knew how to manage it. None of that is serving me though. So it's just a really interesting thing to think about that the people pleasing sort of response as a response that really is coming from our nervous system based on the environments we've often have grown up in.
- [23:33]
B
Yes. And what you spoke of was like the last stages of change, which is you fully embrace the change can fall into old habits, but that's okay. I call them mini relapses because you go through it again and then you fully embrace this change of who you are. That last part you have empowered. Then you become resilient and then you become authentic. You let go of all the bs, of all the masking and whatnot, and you're just you. And you fully embrace that with self compassion. It's an imperfect, perfect self. And that's when you finally shed that people pleasing. Now, it doesn't mean that you're never going to people, please. Because there's times that, yeah, it's okay to people, please. When it's aligned with your values, of course. And if you really are in danger, then people please. If you're in danger, please do that. Do it if you're in danger. But if it's aligned with your values, do it. I did want to touch back in the EMDR because I am certified in EMDR and I use IFS and family
- [24:35]
A
systems for listening if you aren't familiar, which really does need a rebrand because it has nothing to do with your family. When I first learned this makes zero sense. That's probably my autistic part of my brain going, that does not make sense. I'm way too literal that we all have characters in my brain. What? Okay, that's my definition of ifs.
- [24:53]
B
I love that I never even thought of it. I guess I don't even process ifs. I call them defense mechanisms. So I think my brain bypassed ifs. Don't even say internal family systems. And that's why I just say ifs defense mechanisms automatically.
- [25:09]
A
And sometimes people refer to it as parts work.
- [25:11]
B
It is. Yes, yes, ego. Parts work. Parts work. And this is beautiful because this works within yourself. And no, you're not crazy. I tell people, you don't have all these people inside of your body. But think of it as like if you're a parent, if you're a sibling, if you're an uncle or an aunt, these are all different parts of you and you're going to behave a certain way with each role. And so that's exactly what it is. Really. So I love this. And for those that don't know EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, invented back in the 80s by Francine Shapiro. And it helps reprocess traumatic memories with bilateral stimulation. There's a three prong protocol eighth phase. And the goal is to just reduce that emotional charge around traumatic memories, but within the nervous system. And so let's think about it. If neurodivergent people have issues with emotional regulation and our working memory regular protocol would not help with emdr. And so you need to have a special type of knowledge and training in adhd. And of course I recommend certification in EMDR to take those advanced classes to be able to adapt EMDR with people who are neurodivergent. And in it in itself doesn't just work. It's beneficial to work with other modalities because we process differently and we can easily get what. What you mentioned because it's a lot flooding.
- [26:46]
A
Yeah, they used to happen a lot to me.
- [26:48]
B
We don't want flooding as much. We don't want AB reactions. We want. We don't want to discombobulate the patients.
- [26:54]
A
When I started, EMDR therapists are probably the biggest pain in the ass of clients because we're like, we know how this thing goes. Let's just get into it. Come on. And my therapist was like, no, we should probably work on resourcing first. I'm like, let's just get into it. I'M I totally disassociated after that first EMDR session because I pushed and she was like, all right, we tried it. And next session I was like, I'm going to follow your lead from now on.
- [27:19]
B
Be amazed.
- [27:20]
A
Yeah, I needed, I think, to experience that for me to get the buy in of, okay, we should go slow.
- [27:27]
B
Oh, and you're so mindful. Can you imagine having a patient who's neurodivergent and would dissociate? It was so bad that they would sleep it off for days, and yet they still want it. And I just couldn't ethically do that. I was just like, this isn't working. I'm going to have to refer you with someone else. Because that's all they wanted, was just the bilateral stimulation. And it doesn't work that way. EMDR isn't just bilateral stimulation. It's history taking, it's preparing, it's doing resourcing, making sure you're able to go through that trauma whichever way you processed it. Because the fun part with neurodivergence is that they don't have to process it with a specific memory. It could be imprinted with a sensation. It could be imprinted with a smell. Is this so interesting? When it comes to the neurodivergent population, when it comes to processing trauma, which is why I recommend there's sensory processing sensitivity. So there's different adaptations with emdr, you could shorten the response and you could use the resourcing. You just want to make sure there's no overwhelm. And then, of course, the masking. You want to make sure we normalize these reactions. Checking in, validating, but making sure that they're aware of these masking tendencies that do come in. And that's why I like ifs. I consider them defense mechanisms that were brought up because of a trauma and. Or let's say neurodivergence because of something that happened. And you're like, okay, I need a mask because I don't want them to know about my neurodivergence and I wanna get along. And so we create those parts, we call them whatever you wanna call them, but you're recognizing them by themselves and then you're able to process that in itself as opposed to the overwhelm of so many other things, as in your divergent. So, yeah, I love that.
- [29:25]
A
We're going to take a quick break and we will be right back. Hey there. ADHD rewired listeners. I hope you're having a great summer. I have a quick but exciting announcement for you. We're actually considering bringing back an evening group for this fall, but we actually really need your feedback to make it happen and we don't have a ton of time to hear back from you, which is kind of perfect for us ADHDers. Would you be interested in a group that meets at 5pm Pacific 8 Eastern starting September 18, led by ADHD Rewired coach and licensed Clinical Social worker Kristin Martz? If you are interested, head on over right now to coaching Rewired.com and you'll see a button to complete this short interest survey. But we can only move forward on this if we get enough interest and that's where you come in. So take our quick survey@coachingrewired.com or if you're already on our interest list, check your email for a link to a survey that I've already sent you if you're interested in joining. Plus, when you complete this survey, you'll automatically be entered to win 6 months free membership of our Alumni membership community, which is a $240 value. And if you don't end up joining the coaching program, don't worry, you'll still have a chance to win a full year of free access to our Adult Study hall membership community, also a free $240 value. Kristen Martin is one of our amazing ADHD rewired coaches and as I said, a licensed clinical social worker like myself and she will be leading this evening group. So if you are interested in getting the support that you need with a schedule and a budget that works for you, now is your chance to have your voice heard. So if we get enough people to respond to this survey and we decide to move forward, we're going to be offering this section with Kristen at a very budget friendly price starting at just $999. I think we've only offered this one other time in the last several years at this price, so don't wait. We really do need your feedback by August 15, which is just a few days away. Head on over to coaching Rewired.com to get started there. You can also see details about my fall section which will be starting on October 23rd. We're really looking forward to hearing from you. And by the way, this survey also asks you when would your ideal time and they go to coaching Rewired.com to learn more. That's coaching Rewired.com support for this podcast also comes from Adult Study Hall. Whether you are brand new to ADHD or you've been around for a while you probably know the power of body doubling, that seemingly strangely effective strategy that we just have somebody else around. It helps you keep on task. Well, that is what adult study hall, our co working community, is all about. Come check out adult study hall@adultstudyhall.com it's only 19.99amonth or 150 for the year. If you sign up for a full year, come check us out. We have both facilitated sessions and a 24.7quiet co working room. We'd love to co work with you. We'd love to be your body Double. Go to adultstudyhall.com to learn more and to sign up and it's free to try for the first week. That's adultstudyhall.com and we're back. How did you fall into this work? As a lot of people kind of will say, they kind of stumbled into it. Life experience. What was your journey?
- [32:51]
B
Wow. Yeah. Okay. So doing the counseling in my demographics, I live in the Rio Grande Valley, South Texas, deep South Texas. Literally could see Mexico on the other side. And here in the border region, we have high statistics in different types of disorders, be it adhd, trauma, because we live near the border and we come from mixed pot of different generations of different countries. And when you get uprooted from one country to another, that's in it, in itself trauma. When you come to another country with a language you don't even know. And so when I would do the counseling, it was just so difficult because they would come in with this trauma. CBT wouldn't work. And I'm like, I need to do more. Then I had my daughter. She was born with a visual impairment, and the neurodivergent in me is I got to know why I'm here researching. It's a neurological thing. Yes. They have to perform different things within the eyes, but they won't fix the neurological component of it. No, I need to help with this neurological component. I got to figure out left brain, right brain, what's happening with the eyes? I heard Dr. Bruce Lipton and Mel Robbins talk about EMDR. What's this EMDR, where I was the last to know about things here in the valley when there was, like, maybe five people who knew EMDR here in the Valley. Now there's more. So I'm always trying to, you know, see what's out there. I researched emd and then the fact that it had to do with the eyes and the brain, I said, well, this could also help my daughter. I get to know a little bit more about how this thing is because of her visual impairment, her nervous system was heightened. And that just blew my mind because it's okay, you don't have to be born with adhd, you don't have to have trauma. But here we have a neurological issue with the vision and it affects the nervous system. No, I got to work on the system, how it works. So taking the training, I was able to see how the eye movement helps with the REM cycle also even in sleeping, helps with processing from the right side of the brain to the left side of the brain. How it's imprinted in the nervous system using the touch, taste, sight, sound, smell, and now the parietal lobe, which is the space, which is why we often get clumsy. Because the sense of information like this is how far it is. It's not all there. And so we get to bump into things. And so it was just fascinating. And then I saw how it's one of the best modalities to help with trauma. And I said, yes, I gotta do this. I think of my mother, who I also don't speak and I am estranged. She's a victim, narcissist. And I made this decision many years back. I would go visit her and I would be like, oh my God, she said I was fat. And she just like, just says it, doesn't mean it maliciously. It's just, that's just who she is. And I've accepted that I had to kill that ideal mother and know that this is who she is. And I remember telling her I had set a boundary and she broke that boundary. And I said, you know what, mother? The best way I can love you is by not being around you and blocked her on social media. And she doesn't call me or anything. She knows dare not just stop by because I'm the black sheep of the family, have morals and values. And so yeah, she doesn't come around and that's okay. But she, because she knows when I say something, I mean it and that's my boundary.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah.
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B
And people will tell me in this Mexican culture, you're going to regret it when she dies. And you know, how dare a daughter do this to their mother. It doesn't matter what she did. And you know what happened, you got to forgive. And I said, I have forgiven. I've made peace with it. Doesn't mean I have to tolerate it.
- [36:58]
A
Right. It was interesting. My 95 year old grandmother just passed away about 2 weeks ago and my mom's mom and I was kind of dreading this because I knew I'm going to have to be in the same room with. I'm out on this. And the thing that I was dreading most was having someone come up to me saying, life is short, the past is the past. And I had this whole scenario in my head when I was dreading sort of the most. Right.
- [37:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:26]
A
And I, I predicted accurately. So someone did actually come and say this. And I didn't even feel defensive or angry. I was just like, please stop. You do not know at all what has occurred. I appreciate your sentiment. I know you're coming from a good place, but please stop and please don't bring this up again. And that was it. I wasn't even rattled by it. It was just like, oh, that happened.
- [37:56]
B
I love that. Yeah, that's really it. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not a subject I'm willing to talk about and really isn't a subject you should be talking about. But I'm very unfiltered. So. You actually said it really nice.
- [38:09]
A
Yeah. I mean, there's been plenty of times where I wasn't as filtered and it's just, you know, it's sad. It's very interesting because I respect for my mom, but I haven't really talked much about her on the podcast because I don't have much nice things to say. And I don't think she does this stuff on purpose. I think that probably her own trauma, but, like, I can't make her do anything. That's not what boundaries is. Right. Boundaries is here's what I'm willing to tolerate and here's what I'm not. Right.
- [38:36]
B
Exactly.
- [38:37]
A
You would use the term victim narcissist.
- [38:40]
B
Yes.
- [38:40]
A
Can you say more about that? Because I have not heard that specific term.
- [38:43]
B
Oh, my gosh. Yes. So there's different type of narcissists. Covert overt Narcissist. Yeah. Dr. Rahman, Tula talks about it in her book, should I Stay or Should I Go? And overt. This is the one that you can full blown see. The narcissist, it's all about them. The ego. Just horrible. Yeah. Victim narcissist. Oh, that was my mom. Oh, poor me, poor me. I have no place to stay. And she would get money in. Oh my gosh. It was just like. And then if something happened to me and I would try to say, hey, this, that my daughter's doing this to me. How dare she. And everybody would believe her. And I was the bad one for even speaking out of boundary. And again, this is not to blame her. She My father died a day before my third birthday. Alcoholic alcohol driver crashed into us. He's the only one that died in her arm. So she already. She came with trauma. And after that it was just like she was so broken. She couldn't love. Okay, so it's not an excuse, it's an understanding. And so for me, when I speak of her, this is why I did the emdr. So victim, narcissist, they basically see themselves as a victim personified. And if you say something, they will come back and go, look at me. And it's always something bad happening to them and they're asking for help, help me because of this and that. And they're not there to help you. You have to cater to them. I remember in my baby shower, it was coed and I had my husband's family, which healthy, and they were helping me serve. And my mother said, how dare my daughter not serve me. I have to cater to her.
- [40:33]
A
I remember my wedding. I had gotten two, I think it was two dozen white roses from my then mother in law. And I was thinking, mom is proud of me for doing this, doing that. She was pissed because I didn't get her flowers. And I was like, are you serious right now? Oh, yeah, she was real serious. And it's like, wow, she doesn't see it. And he brings something up and boomerang it and spin it around. And then all of a sudden I'm apologizing for something that wasn't even my fault or that I didn't do anything wrong. But I think part of that response is I almost become overly, not overly apologetic. But where I assume if there was a conflict, if something happened, someone's upset, or I must have done something. So let me figure it out. So that going back to all that understanding where that people pleasing comes from can be so helpful because then you can work on it and address it. And there absolutely is. There are lots of therapies that can really help with this. Because it doesn't have to be so painful. Because it is painful. It doesn't have to be so painful.
- [41:38]
B
Oh, yeah, no, I have compassion for my mother. And again, because I set that boundary, I can say that now. You know the reason why I chose emdr, because I think of my mother. She was so broken, she couldn't get out. And for me, EMDR can help those type of people to be able to break free from that prison that they have been so internalized for decades. And of course, using other modalities like ego parts, defense mechanisms, internal family systems, and even polysomatic. Polyvagal theory with porges is amazing. To feel the body because of the dissociation that can occur when it comes to trauma. That one in it in itself is amazing too. So yeah, that was the main reason why. And seeing everything I went through with my mother and I swear every time she went, she came back with stuff and oh, poor her, poor her. And I'm like, oh my God, you have no idea. So, yeah, I hear you.
- [42:36]
A
All right, well, Anita Sandoval, let's wrap this one up. As author of Broken Chains, the podcast empowering women in conversations, where can people learn more about you?
- [42:47]
B
You can find me on the website www.anitasandoval.com and I am the founder of Empower Her Pathways, which is what I discussed on how to become from people pleaser to empowered, resilient, authentic. And so it's like a three part series. You can't go one with the other. And so right now I'm going to be opening and launching for my online course to Become Empowered. First and foremost, becoming aware. Am I a people pleaser? Are you ready for change and actually creating a change? So yeah. Anitasandoval.com Beautiful.
- [43:21]
A
And we will put that link on this episode's show notes. And thank you so much, Anita, for sharing your story and sharing what you do. I really appreciate you spending the time with us.
- [43:31]
B
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
- [43:33]
A
Thanks. If you heard yourself in today's episode, the automatic yes, the scanning the room, the keeping the peace reflex. You're not broken. That's a nervous system that learned how to keep you safe. Survival got you here. It doesn't have to drive you where you're going next. The work isn't a switch, it's reps. One breath before a yes, one tiny boundary. This week, one part of you you thank for trying to help people. Pleasing, masking, rejection, sensitivity. Those are strategies, not your identity. With support, they can soften you. Get to practice being more you. If you're in the messy middle, you're not alone. We are wired for connection. And change takes the time it takes. Keep going, stay curious, lead with your values, tend to your nervous system, then decide you've got this and we've got you. Links to Anita's work and the resources we mentioned are in the show notes. I'm Eric Tivers. Thank you so much for listening. You could check out more of what we do at the website, ADHD rewired. Com And a quick shout out to my son Gibson, who is turning 14 this week. And starting high school. Good luck, buddy.