← ADHD reWired
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- [00:00]
A
ADHD Rewired episode 563. Since 2014, this has been the podcast for ADHD adults who have really good intentions and a slightly wandering attention. I'm Eric Tivers. I'm a licensed clinical social worker by training and a coach by design. I'm your host. And I'm Audie hd. ADHD Rewired is more than just a podcast. You can learn about our coaching and accountability groups, our virtual coworking community, and more, all@adhd Rewired.com we are wired for connection and you are not alone. Learn more about our offerings, including our quarterly live Q&As. Get additional resources for every episode, including links to any resources we mention on today's show. You can support us on Patreon, sign up for our email newsletter and more, all@adhd Rewired.com and if this is your first time listening, welcome. Don't forget to hit, subscribe or follow on your podcast app so you never miss an episode. We know the starting is the hardest part, so let's get started. Welcome back to another episode of ADHD Rewired. Today's guest is Laura Jurgens. Laura is a dual certified master relationship and intimacy coach and the host of the Desire Gap podcast, which I definitely would recommend. She is a desire arousal specialist, helping individuals and couples discover authentic sexual connection, including when one or both is neurodivergent. Her approach helps people release shame, shed relationship anxiety, and gain confidence with effective communication. Her approach is play based, practical, inclusive, trauma informed and grounded in the latest research. She is a former university professor with a PhD in Biological Sciences and certifications from the Somatica Institute, the Life Coach School, and the Neuroaffective Touch Institute. And you can find more about her@laurajergens.com and we'll link that in the show notes. Laura, welcome to ADHD Rewired.
- [02:11]
B
Oh my gosh, thank you and what a lovely introduction. Thanks so much.
- [02:15]
A
I mean, I would hope it would be lovely. I think you wrote it.
- [02:18]
B
Probably, probably did.
- [02:20]
A
Well, I want to welcome you to the show and so I just want everyone from listeners to know. So I was scheduled to be on Laura's podcast about a month ago and she had sent me a couple emails reminding me to send her my stuff, like my headshot and my bio and I kept looking at it on my to do list and then I sent it like a half an hour before we were supposed to have the actual interview. And then I think our the messages got crossed and you basically messaged me saying, yeah, I Haven't gotten it yet. So we're not on. And I was like that. Yeah, that makes sense. So I'm sorry. And I also still have adhd.
- [03:04]
B
Yeah, me too, Me too. Absolutely. Yeah. So we're going to do this one and I'm sure we'll get rescheduled at some point for you because I think this conversation is going to. My hope is that it's going to be really useful for your audience and I'm sure it will be useful for my audience too.
- [03:20]
A
Well, as, as you heard from the. The intro and the me introducing Laura, if by any chance you have young kids in the area and you have your speakers on and it's on our headphones, you might want to switch to headphones.
- [03:35]
B
Yeah, we're going to talk about sex.
- [03:36]
A
Yes. So let's get into it. Okay, so I was listening to one of your episodes where you're talking about ADHD and sort of the. When the desire isn't the same. So one person in the couple is either maybe hypersexual or hyposexual and then the other is just not a match.
- [04:03]
B
Yep.
- [04:05]
A
I imagine you see this a lot. And so tell me, what do you do when there's a different sort of match of a desire?
- [04:15]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So this is just to normalize this. This is about 80% of long term relationships will encounter a desire discrepancy at some point. Whether you have one or both of you neurodivergent or not. It's really normal, it's really common and unfortunately it's been normalized as this sort of suffering in our society where it's sort of like, well, that's just how it is or something. And, and that's because most people don't know how to deal with it. And because they don't know how to deal with it, they act like nobody knows how to deal with it. But it's true that it can be really hard to find good help. And so your question of like, well, what do you do? It's a big question. Right. Because it's not a quick fix, it's not a band aid fix. We do need to understand what's happening for both of you. And usually what happens when we have that kind of desire discrepancy is there winds up being like a resentment, a withdrawal, this whole pattern of emotional disconnection that happens on top of that because people are making desire mean something about them, that they're broken, that their partner is broken, that neither of which is true, that they're that does somebody not wanting sex means they don't care about you or want to connect with you? Like, there's so much hurt involved that it tends to really blow up relationships quite often and it's one of the leading causes of divorce. So I just want to say it's really normal for it to happen. There are solutions. They're not typically the like, quick fix stuff you find on the Internet, especially if you're somebody with ADHD or your partner is. It's really important to kind of understand what's actually going on under the hood.
- [06:03]
A
So when you talk about like that, that quick fix stuff you find in the Internet, what are some of those things that you kind of just roll your eyes at and groan when you come across?
- [06:11]
B
Well, the worst one is just do it. So obligation sex is the worst possible advice that you can get. And it typically makes things a lot worse because it's. Now we're creating somebody's crossing their own boundaries and their own body's boundaries. And that in itself will cause low libido. If you are trying to manage your partner's feelings with your body by throwing yourself under the bus and having sex for them that doesn't feel good to you, then you are going to have resentment. It's like signing up for the resentment bus. It's like, get me a, let me have a one way ticket to resentment town. Right? So there's. And it also will shut down your body. Your body will start imposing low libido as a way to keep you from continually crossing its own boundaries. So people will lose sensation, they'll lose sex drive, they'll even start having pain frequently. They'll have sexual dysfunction. Like men will have challenges with erections or with lasting as long as they want. Like, there'll be all kinds of challenge, physical challenges and symptoms from that. So that's like the worst advice on the Internet. But there's also, there's quite a, there's quite a lot of bad sex advice on the Internet, to be honest.
- [07:25]
A
I can imagine you could probably do a whole like episode of the worst advice you've ever seen on the Internet. Like, I think that'd be kind of fun.
- [07:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah, I could, I sprinkle a little bit of it in most of my episodes just like, hey, watch out for this. Right? But expecting things like, I'm gonna surprise my part, my low libido partner with a bunch of new sex toys. Like, or we're gonna start, oh, polarity, that's a really bad one that's out there right now that is. It's like spiritualism. It's sort of like, if I were to put it in a nutshell, it's like doing BDSM by doubling down on gender roles in a pseudo spiritual way without any guardrails. It's like as if it's. It's as if you're like, lean. Yeah. So you're leaning into like supposedly masculine feminine. But it's, there's this sort of like, flavor of it where you're asking. There's. There tends to be this sort of like, DS dynamic where the feminine winds up being expected to be, quote, unquote, receptive, AKA submissive, and the masculine listeners
- [08:32]
A
don't know what the dynamic means.
- [08:34]
B
Yeah. So what that means is a dominant submission dynamic. And that's. This is me explaining that. So. And then the masculine is supposed to be in a dominant role, but most men don't actually know how to do that. They haven't been taught how to do that well or safely. And. And then we're doubling it down into these gender stereotypes where people are saying, well, hey, masculine and feminine, that doesn't actually mean men and women. But when you look at it in practice, that's how it's being played out.
- [09:02]
A
Okay.
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B
The men are not taking a feminine role. And you're working with what your subconscious has been told are your gender roles. And now we're exacerbating them and putting in this dominant submission dynamic with people who don't know how to do that safely. And you wind up with typically causing more problems in your relationship than you know. And these are well meaning people who are looking for ways to reconnect and to spice up their sex life and to feel, you know, like they got turned on again. Right. And to really connect. And unfortunately they're being given this really bad advice out there. I have a whole episode on polarity and like how to do it right. If you choose to play with it. But you gotta be careful about it. And it really needs to be under the right conditions. But that's sort of one of those, like Instagram influencer type of sex advice things that are out on the Internet right now. And I just want to let people know to be careful.
- [10:00]
A
That sounds like that could almost be someone like masking sexually.
- [10:04]
B
Yeah, well, a lot of people do that in general. I mean, a lot of our sexuality these days because we have so little education on how to do it authentically. So much of it is performance based and that really comes back and bites us. And it's a real reason Why a lot of these desire discrepancies, desire gaps, happen in the first place.
- [10:23]
A
So how do you think that ADHD actually shapes desire?
- [10:27]
B
Yeah, so this is really common in my practice to see ADHD affecting desire in both directions. So you can have really high libido with adhd, you can have really low libido with adhd, and you could also have libido that goes back and forth between high and low. And what often happens is some ADHD folks have notably high sex drive. And that's not necessarily a problem, but it can cause challenges for you and for your relationship. And sometimes it's because sex starts feeling like the way that you get into your body and out of your head, you know, all day you've got this noisy brain, your body's sort of feeling foreign. And during sex you might finally feel grounded and present. And so it can be a wonderful thing, and in fact it can be a lovely part of your life. Right. But sometimes what happens is then we kind of get into the dopamine seeking aspect or we start getting into almost using sex as self medication for the nervous system. So it's this intense dopamine reward. It can be the primary way you start regulating your nervous system, either through sex itself or sometimes through porn. And that can be a problem, and particularly for partners, because your partner starts feeling like a tool or a medication rather than a person you authentically want to connect with. If you are looking and seeking sex to reg to self regulate instead of having a connection with the person, now you are trying to use them as your medication. And that can be cause a really problematic emotional dynamic that sets up a desire gap that can be really painful. The other thing that can happen is like if you're really hyper focused during sex, where you can be really incredibly present, it can actually be a superpower. It can be like a beautiful erotic superpower. But again, we have to be really careful that you're not just distracted and emotionally distant all day, and then all of a sudden you want sex to connect. And the experience of your partner is that you're only available for them emotionally during sex, and you're checked out the rest of the time. Right. And this is totally solvable. But it's important to acknowledge and understand that impact if that's what's happening. And then, you know, we can talk about the other side too. But those are some of the things I often see with high libido partners.
- [13:02]
A
Do you see more ADHDers being on the end of high libido or low,
- [13:06]
B
low Libido, I think it's about evenly split and it's not gendered either. It's definitely. I see just as many high libido women with ADHD as I do high libido men with adhd. And I see a lot. About half of my ADHD clients are low libido or they identify that way. And it makes total sense, too, because oftentimes they're having a really hard time getting in their body and they're kind of going along with it because society tells us we're supposed to like this and we're trying to like, like it for our partner. And I've actually been on both sides of this, too, so I totally get it. From a personal side, I've been on both sides of this. But when you're trying to perform sex for a partner and you're up in your head thinking about the 200 things you have on your to do list and, you know, the fact that you left the oven on and that you probably forgot to bring your work bag home or whatever, you're living in your head and you're not connected to your physical sensations. Most, a lot of us, even neurotypical people with the way productivity culture works are doing that on the regular. And then ADHD people are doing it even more a lot of the time. And now all of a sudden, we're supposed to be present in our body and drop down into pleasure, and we don't have that habit. We haven't built that neurological pathway. Right. So sex becomes a thing you're doing, but not actually for yourself in a way that you're fully experiencing. And that makes a lot of sense for people to be low libido in those cases, because it's just not you. It's not for you. It doesn't feel great to you, and you're not really getting what your body actually needs, probably because you haven't actually taken the time and space to really figure out what your body necessarily needs. And there can be sensory issues, too, which I'll just. We can throw. We can talk about that, too.
- [15:13]
A
Yeah, that's. I'll put a pin in that. We'll. We'll probably going to come back to that one. Do you think that a lot of ADHDers kind of confuse intensity of their emotions to actual compatibility.
- [15:29]
B
Oh. With their partner? Sure. I mean, I think. I don't think that's unique to us as ADHDers, but I do think that we can also. Yeah. Compatibility is an interesting question in general. And I think that people Make a lot of assumptions about compatibility, meaning there's no differences. That the human brain is sort of wired to see differences as a problem when we're not being really intentional about it and when we're in sort of default thinking mode. But everybody is different. Every single person has different genetics, has a different personal history. And sometimes we see things like different levels of desire, like I want sex at a different frequency as my partner as being some sort of evidence of incompatibility. But it isn't necessarily. It's just a difference to be navigated and negotiated. And a lot of times we can get a lot closer to this sort of similar levels of desire than we are right now. And we can also learn to deal with disappointment and not spiral into RSD and rejection, sensitive dysphoria and, you know, spiral into like, I'm bad, I'm wrong, they don't want me rejection. All this business, we can learn how to navigate it without being so burdened by the disappointment. And it doesn't necessarily mean we're incompatible. Because if you're looking for somebody to match you exactly in everything, they want Chinese food the exact same amount of times a week you do. They want sex the exact same time, amount of times a week as you do. They like to keep their house the exact same level of cleanliness. You know, you will strike out forever if you. If those are your criteria.
- [17:16]
A
I don't know anyone that does anything like. Like the same all the time.
- [17:19]
B
Exactly. So expecting that for sex is similarly unrealistic. And we don't necessarily have to toss our partner out just because they don't want the exact same amount of sex as us. There may be fundamental incompatibilities. Absolutely. And if they never want sex and don't want to work on it, and you do want sex and you do want to work on it, then those are pretty clear incompatibilities. Right. But there's also the chance that they do want to work at it and they want to meet you somewhere and you could work at it and meet them somewhere. So it's not necessarily that the difference is the diagnostic, if that makes sense.
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A
I imagine there's differences on how you would approach working with couples in relationships where maybe someone's desire has changed over the years versus someone who is like, trying to. Maybe they're dating and they're trying to figure out what works for them. So how do you approach it? One, with people who have established long established relationships. And then what would you do differently? Or what do you. How would you advise someone who is maybe dating and trying to find better partners for compa. Compatibility purposes?
- [18:30]
B
Yeah, well, it really depends on the individual. And this is why there's not a really good one size fits all approach. It's kind of like a kitchen remodel. Right. In a relationship, we need to look at the foundation and make sure that we have all the conditions are in place for desire to emerge and that that individual has what they need. Most of the time, people are going to like their doctors or something, and the doctors are. Have almost no training in sexuality. The best they can do is throw some hormones at it. Most of the time. I would say, in my experience, about 90 to 95% of the time, hormones are not the answer. They might sometimes be part of the answer. They can certainly be part of it, but very rarely are they the whole answer. So if you're experiencing declining libido over time, you know, asking yourself, what is hitting my brakes? So I love Emily Nagoski's analogy of, you know, gas pedals and brakes. What is hitting your brakes? Or are you not getting your gas pedals touched? You know, are you getting. Do you love the sex you're having? That is a question that a lot of people aren't even asking themselves. Do I love my partner's touch? Do they know how to touch me right for my body? Do. Am I incredibly stressed out? You know, if you're incredibly stressed out or burned out, that's going to affect your libido. And a lot of people are trying to pretend that they're not. But the reality is we are not designed to stop and have some sexy time when we're running from the lion. Your body is going to shut down your libido if you are, if your nervous system is highly activated. So we need to look at all those things and then we need to help. People really have the tools to shift. And, you know, in my practice, I'm practice oriented. We're not just going to sit there and talk about it for years, which is one of the big problems. And one of the things that happens is people go to a therapist. Most therapists are not trained with desire and arousal issues, and even sex therapists often can help you understand the problem, but they can't give you practices to actually help you solve it. So it's really helpful, especially for people with adhd, to have embodied practices that get you wins along the way. So you build confidence, you build new skills, you feel more connected. You know, you might practice touching with your partner and how to give them feedback. How to receive feedback without, you know, it blowing up. Right. How do we do that and start feeling relaxed and let it be connecting instead of all this pressure and all these expectations.
- [21:12]
A
Can you share an example of a specific exercise that you coached maybe one of your clients through?
- [21:19]
B
Sure. So, for example, we always start with, can you attune to yourself? This is a really basic practice, and I didn't used to be able to do it at all. I had no idea what was going on inside my body at any given time. And when people told me emotions are sensations in the body, like you actually feel them in the body, I was like, I don't know what kind of crack you're on. I was so dissociated that I had no idea what my nervous system state was or what I was feeling in my body. So self attunement, you know, teaching people how to go inside, do a body scan, find the actual sensations in their body, understand what level their nervous system is at, is gold. Because now all of a sudden, you have a key to know where you are and to be able to communicate it with your partner. To assess your own capacity to start noticing what you like and what you don't like in your body. Right. Not just what you think you should like. And so helping people start with self attunement. And then we learn partner attunement. Right. Can you hold attunement to yourself and still be present with somebody else without jumping out of your body to focus on them? Because when you do that, all of a sudden you're not home anymore and there's no one there for them to connect with. So those are just some simple beginning practices that start helping people be even present with each other.
- [22:50]
A
So it sounds like for people who maybe have a hard time being in their body, or maybe people who also maybe have alexithymia, which is something that I've learned over the last year, that I have alexithymia, which is wild to me because I'm really good at identifying and recognizing other people's emotions, just not my own, which is like. It kind of like hurt my brain knowing, like, I'm like, how did that even happen to go. And being a therapist for so long, I'm like, wait, this is why I find the question, how are you so annoying? Yeah. So sounds like it might be actually really both effective and potentially almost erotic to begin intimacy with, like a grounding based meditation.
- [23:33]
B
Yeah, I mean, really being in your body. And there's extensions of what I was talking about, about the self attunement. That are erotic, that are building into connecting with your genitalia and connecting with the sensations of your body from the inside. And that can feel delicious to people and to your partner. Because if you are really connected to yourself and to your sexual energy, it feels amazing to everybody else versus you
- [23:58]
A
just showing up and doing a quote unquote, a job.
- [24:02]
B
Right. What I think I'm supposed to do, which does not feel sexy.
- [24:07]
A
No. Yeah, definitely. I. I've had situations where I. All I can say is that it felt medical.
- [24:12]
B
Yeah. It can feel really clinical.
- [24:16]
A
And that's no fun. That is no fun.
- [24:18]
B
Yeah. Or like. Or it feels really anxious. That that's the other way that it can often feel is if somebody is coming from anxiety trying to do what I think I should do to please you or show that I am pleased. It can feel like one, like the person's not there and two, like they're. Or like they're kind of this like child, almost like a child that you need to care for. Which is also not sexy. Right?
- [24:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [24:45]
B
It's really helpful to learn how to feel your own sexual energy and contain it in your body. And that also keeps, incidentally, keeps you from feeling creepy to people too. Because when you contain your own sexual energy in your body, it's not sort of like sneaking out at other people trying to kind of like get stuff from them. And this all sounds kind of like woo, but it's not. It's functionally like humans are operating. The vast majority of our communication is non verbal and we are reading each other subconsciously, constantly. Constantly. And if we pretend that that's not true, if we pretend it's just the words that we say, we're just setting ourselves up for so much failure. Right. It's not like you've ever asked somebody how they are and they're like, fine. And you're like, oh, yeah, I believe you a hundred percent. Right. You can hear it. You can see it in their shoulders, you can see it in their face. You can hear it in the sound of their voice.
- [25:44]
A
All right, let's do this. Let's take a really quick break and then when we come back, we'll just continue this conversation. So we will be right back.
- [25:52]
B
Great ADHD rewired coaching and accountability groups.
- [25:57]
A
Hey, I have a quick question for you. How many of you have said, okay, today is going to be the day or this week is going to be the week that I'm finally going to get my life together and take care of X, Y or Z And then Tuesday or Wednesday happens and the thing that you said you were going to do didn't happen. I've been there before too. You know, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you already know doing better isn't about trying harder. It's about creating, creating the right structure for your unique brain. And that's exactly why we built ADHD Rewire, its coaching and accountability groups and registration is officially open for our next season. This is our intensive eight week coaching program where you don't just learn strategies, you actually use them with support, accountability and a group of people who get it. And here's what this season looks like. We have two sections. We have a morning group with coach Brian Antler and that's running from June 5th through July 31st. Meeting Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays starting at 7:30am Pacific, that's 10:30am Eastern. Our evening group with coach Kristen Martz runs June 4th through July 30th. Meeting Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays at 4:30pm Pacific, 7:30 Eastern. And starting week three, you will also be meeting with your accountability team twice a week week and have daily check ins over chat to keep you focused on your top three priorities for each day. Because hey, insight is great, but accountability really is the bridge that connects good intention to action. Because following through with action is what changes everything.
- [27:35]
B
Join us this summer ADHD Rewired coaching and accountability groups. Coaching Rewired.com Coaching Rewired.com Pre register today
- [27:47]
A
Coaching Rewired.com we are back. All right, so let me ask you a sort of real zooming a thousand feet out question. Sex positivity or being sex positive? I think that sometimes we hear this word being thrown around and I'm, I don't think a lot of people actually know what that means. What does it mean?
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B
Yeah, it's just a buzzword in the back.
- [28:09]
A
Right? Right. It's like, all right, they're sex positive. Great. What does that mean to you?
- [28:13]
B
Yeah, to be honest, I don't think it means much, but I think the intention behind it is good. And I would say my understanding of the intention behind it and I don't know if I use that, I don't know if I've ever used that word. What they mean in when they are actually authentically meaning good is a de. Shaming of sexuality that we are here to as adults and even you know, to understand. Look, kids as young as like 3 years old will start being erotic beings. And anybody who's a parent has probably, you know, Been surprised by that if you didn't have your own memories of it as a child. But as consenting adults, we want to really normalize that it's okay to be a sexual being. It's okay to have genitalia, it's okay to have orgasms, it's okay to enjoy those things. It's okay to pursue pleasure in your body. This animal, animal that you've been given. And I think that's what people mean when they're well intentioned people using the word sex positive is that we don't want to shame people for being sexual.
- [29:24]
A
The part of when I think about it, whenever I use it, I also just think about it in the realm of could we talk about sex related things? Like we're talking about what we're gonna have for dinner. Like it's just a topic to talk about versus it has to be this really like heavy.
- [29:38]
B
Yeah.
- [29:40]
A
So just to kind of normalize the stuff that for so many years we're just like, you don't talk about employee, company or you don't, you know, it's like you don't talk about it. Just it magically happens and we all kind of figure it out somehow.
- [29:53]
B
But yeah, but I think that basically I'm, I'm saying the same thing. But it just comes, a lot of that comes from this like shame culture around sexuality. Right. So that normalizing or being able to have a conversation about it. But I think sex positive in its ideal form also includes normalizing that people do live in a world that's really shaming around sexuality. And it's okay to feel nervous talking about it and it's okay for it to feel hard. You know, I've had clients who are therapists, they've been therapists and they're, they're in their 60s and they still can't say the word sex. You know, we get on a call and you know, we start with like having the person cover their mouth with their hand or like have me turn away and try saying it. You know, like just baby steps. It's okay to be wherever you're at with it. You don't have to push yourself to be more comfortable than you are. And I think when we really say the word positive, we're being positive with people, then we're going to meet you where you're at.
- [30:54]
A
Okay. And what about. And I often I'll hear these terms used together this. There's sex positive, then there's kink positive.
- [31:01]
B
Ah, yeah. I think it's the same. It's Kind of the same thing. It's this idea of normalizing and de. Shaming the. That everybody's got some sort of kinks. You know, your kink might be to be told you're gorgeous five times a day, and maybe you've never leaned into it, but that's okay. Maybe you got a little bit of a praise kink in there. That's okay. Right? And then some people have a kink, you know, Like, I met a guy who was really into sniffing pennies. It was exactly what turned him on. Gave him a raging boner. It was his thing.
- [31:34]
A
And, you know, panties or pennies.
- [31:36]
B
Pennies. Pennies. Like. Like cent pieces. Sent pieces. Yeah, one cent. And, you know, like, no shame. This guy's not harming anybody. It turns him on. It lights him up. I love it. I love it. And positive just means that we're accepting and understanding and curious instead of judgmental. It's that sort of, you know, I'm not gonna yuck on your yum.
- [32:03]
A
I love that expression.
- [32:05]
B
It is a nice expression. I like it, too.
- [32:07]
A
It's great. It is great. You know, with ADHDers being known for being novelty seekers, it seemed like as a group, we tend to be more curious, more like wondering what this might be like or that might be like. Or what that person might be like. How do you help people sort of navigate that in a Both psychologically and physically healthy way?
- [32:35]
B
Well, there's tons of ways to navigate that in a physically and psychologically healthy way. Right. I mean, it's just beautiful curiosity. And if we are focusing on really truly embodied consent, which is not just the brain says that it should be okay with you, but your body is really 100% on board, and you care about the other person's body being 100% on board. As long as we focus on truly embodied consent, then what's the problem? You know, we need to negotiate that sometimes. There's almost infinite ways to play with almost any kink or fetish out there with other consenting adults. And it's when people decide to abuse power that it becomes problematic. Not because somebody has a particular interest or curiosity. Right. Even if you have, you know, you want to do age play or something, that can be done with consenting adults in a creative way where everybody has negotiated and knows what they're getting into up front. So I don't really think it's a problem. I think it's lovely, and it's one of the wonderful things about people with adhd.
- [33:53]
A
And I think that's also where there's so much overlap between the neurodivergent communities and kink communities because there is wires, like a lot of explicit, ongoing communication about everything sexually related.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah. And the kink community is such a good place to learn how to do that too. Because if you go to a really good, reputable group of kinksters, you will, like, apprentice with people who are very good about being explicit about. What are we talking about here? What is okay, what is not okay. And you'll be surprised. A lot of people are really surprised that a lot of that isn't even explicitly sexual. It's a lot of it is playing with emotional dynamics. How do we want to feel? What is the experience? I really crave here? And it can be a really beautiful process.
- [34:43]
A
So let me ask you this. So let's say there's two neurodivergent people and. And they're both novelty seekers. Their relationship has been kind of on the rocks for a bit. Opening up the relationship a good idea.
- [34:58]
B
It can be, but I'd be really cautious about the on the rocks part. So typically, people start looking at opening up a relationship as if it's going to be this sort of magic panacea for solving disconnection. But I'll tell you the honest truth, as somebody who has done this that personally and has helped a lot of other people do it, that opening a relationship requires a level of trust and communication that you have never even imagined until you do it. And the level of trust and connected communication, you have to get so good at those things. And it's not for solving problems of disconnection. It's for learning to reconnect so that you can really be your authentic selves and you can support each other in being your authentic selves. But you have to have enough of a connection and a commitment to really building that to be able to do it.
- [36:00]
A
Now, I know that polyamory requires a lot of communication, and ADHD can sometimes make being a consistent communicator kind of challenging. How do you help clients who do choose open relationships or polyamory with their communication when the communication can be kind
- [36:24]
B
of spotty sometimes I think really it's about practice. And, you know, everybody thinks practice sounds really boring. But all the things that we got really good at in life are because we practice them and starting small, not expecting ourselves to be perfect at it. This is one of the reasons I love my job so much, because people get to practice with me. We have a relationship lab, and you practice having those conversations with me first. And I'm. It's like practice with the kitten to play with the tiger, right? Like, I'm low stakes. Your partner is really high stakes for you. You have no emotional stakes. So thinking about practicing with a neutral party, and even if you're not getting coached by me, like, practicing with somebody who you're like, hey, I want to actually say this and see if I can get some of the bad ones out first, right? Like, get those first pancakes out where you say it like the worst possible way. I always invite somebody to say it the worst possible way first, just to get it out your face. Because there's something cathartic about saying your truth too. And I think most of us, I'm not so sure that. And I don't know everything about every single person with neurodivergence. Right. We're all. We're all different. We're a diverse group. But in my experience, a lot of the problems with communication are because we've been shut down so much and we've been told we're wrong so much, and we get up in our heads about it and we start avoiding. And so if you start having successes with communication where somebody stays with you, they stay connected with you, you can say what's true for you and they're here even if it wasn't perfect. You're like, did you mean that or did you mean this other thing? Could you clarify for me? Right. And we're gentle with each other. Then people start building confidence with their communication. They start feeling better about it and they're more willing to do it. It's when it feels like I don't know what's going to happen if I try to open my mouth. That's when people start avoiding communication. So the point is you can get better, and you just need to practice with some tools that actually work instead of like, learning how to communicate vulnerably, learning how to communicate about your actual emotions, learning how not to make accusations. Right. When what you really want is reassurance or like somebody listening to you. So there's a lot of ways that we're taught by society that communication styles that totally shoot us in the foot. So we need to relearn what actually works.
- [38:53]
A
Can I ask you a personal question?
- [38:55]
B
Totally.
- [38:56]
A
For, you know, anytime I ask questions, for me, I'm always hoping that I'm. It's also asking for listeners as well. Okay. So one of my challenges that I have had in relationships is especially since I've been going through sort of extended period of. Of burnout and I'm. And like, I need a lot of introversion time to, to recover. And one of my challenges is I don't always know when I need that. It's just like, I just find myself in that space of not wanting to like, connect with others, was just needing to kind of like withdrawal sort of inwards to, to recharge. And I, I was in a relationship for about three years or what one of the ongoing points of contention or that I did not communicate when I was going uncommunicative, which to me kind of drove me crazy because I was like, how am I supposed to communicate when I'm feeling uncommunicative, that I'm uncommunicative?
- [39:55]
B
Well, there's a couple things to try. Right? Are you asking for like, specific strategies?
- [40:02]
A
Yeah, because it's one of the things that I, that I find challenging because like, on an intellectual level, like, yeah, that makes sense to be able to do that. That's a. It seems like a reasonable request. Except I, I sometimes struggle to know that I need this coming for. In order for me to communicate.
- [40:19]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there's a, you know, there's a few things. One is just like being empathetic and compassionate with yourself, that this is a challenge. It also sounds to me like. And communicating that to your partner, you know, hey, I haven't been that great at this. I don't always know it's coming. Here's a few ideas of what I'm going to try. Right. There's sort of a. There's a few different levels at which you can try. So there's the micro level, like the in the moment kind of intervention, like, oh, gosh, I got ambushed by this real need to pull away and I really need that right now. You can do really specific, simple things like have a gesture or something that might just be, you know, your hands on your heart and like, and like a little like wave goodbye. Like, I, that's just that I'm gonna tell you this when I need to run away and I want you to know I love you. And it's not because I'm. I don't wanna connect with you, but it's because I need some alone time. It could be a gesture, it could be a sign that you put on your door. I love you, but I'm hermiting right now. I had a little black cat door hanger that just said do not disturb. That was like, okay, this is me. And I had a conversation with my partner that I was gonna be using that more often because I was ha. I was struggling and that it wasn't about my partner. Like, it's not that I don't want to connect with you. Right. And so we need to have the meta conversation about it, but then also some tactics in our toolbox to use to just communicate. Like, hey, I'm not trying to put up the barbed wire fence here. Right. I'm not trying to push you away, but in order for me to show up the way I want to in this relationship, I need to recharge, and I'm struggling with that right now. This is what that might look like. So having that conversation in advance helps people not take it personally and not feel rejected. And then the other sort of level you can think about it at is, okay, well, if I know I need this and it happens regularly right now and I'm in a period of burnout and it's sort of ambushing me when I need it, what that would tell me is I need to be more proactive about giving myself more of this before it becomes an emergency. Because if it's at that level, all of a sudden your nervous system is shot. Like, you can't even. It's really hard to recover and to fully rest from that place. You're gonna be way better rested if you do it before you get to that place. So I would step back and start putting things in my calendar that were like, okay. And I did. This is literally what I did when I was in that phase was I was like, okay, I'm only allowed to work four hours today, and it's gon be separated by at least an hour break each time. And here's the wonderful things that recharge me that I'm going to do in between. And I defended those things just as much as anything on my to do list.
- [43:20]
A
And I've been doing a ton of that this year because good job. Like last year, I was all about basically, like, stop the bleeding of the burnout, which I did. But it didn't actually help me, like, recover from the burnout because that was towards the end of the year. I was like, I don't really feel that much better. I don't feel worse, but I don't feel that much better than I. And so I've actually been building a meditation practice again for the umpteenth time. And just other like, I don't work as many hours as I used to, but it's like. And I feel it making incremental changes, but it's been a really annoyingly long process. And then the other thing is like add so as an Audi HDR who also has a PDA profile. Then I get into that PDA piece of like, oh, like I want to show, I want to like retract into myself. And there's this expectation that I let somebody know that I'm doing that and my PDA just goes, no, I'm not going to do that. Which is not.
- [44:20]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I mean, that's like. I mean, I have that too. And I also. Yeah, just a really. I do not like to have anybody else feel like they're remotely the boss of me. And yet I also, I think it's a reframe. I think it's about, look, my partner's not the boss of me, but they feel really hurt if I withdraw and don't communicate. It feels like it's about them. So it's actually inviting your partner to say how they feel about it can really help it transition from like an authority resistance. Because your partner is actually, most likely it's not them trying to exercise authority over you. Most likely it's hurt. And when they go to vulnerability and tell you what their actual feelings are, it totally sidesteps that PDA stuff. You won't feel like you need to, you know, resist it so much. It'll be like, oh, I'm being respectful here and letting somebody know what my needs are and I'm allowing myself to have needs and have them be seen. That's actually supports your autonomy. Right? I'm going to let my partner know how to support my autonomy. It's just like the brain needs a little reframe for that.
- [45:45]
A
I know, like now if I'm entering a relationship, I usually will, like that's in my, like all my, my disclosures right up front. I'm like, yeah, this is going to be the things that happen. And like, this is how I've been rolling. Because I think it's better to let people know that kind of stuff ahead of time versus being, you know, months or years in and then discovering it. What are your thoughts on different types of self disclosure at different, like early on in a relationship?
- [46:12]
B
Well, I think it's really useful to know yourself and be honest as much as you can with yourself up front. And then there's. There's a line that you can only decide for yourself about. Although, I mean, I'm happy to help people with that too. I always help people try to figure out what's aligned with them. Right. Like a good coach is going to help you figure out what you actually want to do, not tell you what you should do. So I think for. For each individual person, it's going to be in a different place. But does the disclosure support you and them in understanding you, or is it a way for you to give yourself a sort of get out of jail free card and have to not hold yourself to a behavioral standard that you actually value? So that's a really important question because sometimes people are trying to say, hey, this is just my adhd and therefore you should just let me off the hook for all of my behavior. And that's actually not helping us. Yeah, it's just not. It's like we're asking somebody to enable us and we're trying to enable ourselves. And it's an unrealist. It's not really in keeping with our values. So you have to really figure out like, okay, is this in service of my values or against my values? And where do I draw that line? Do I want to challenge myself to be better at this? How do I want to sort of portray that to somebody? I do think it's worth with owning our patterns, but not just letting ourselves be sort of entitled to whatever kind of behavior in a partnership we feel like that day.
- [47:47]
A
What about sharing sort of like sexual desires, kinks, fetishes, that kind of stuff early in a relationship? What, like, what are your thoughts on when? That's. When is a good time to do that?
- [48:00]
B
Yeah. If you're going to start having sex with somebody, it is a good idea to start talking about what you like and what you don't like, you know, and not pretending otherwise. And I think starting to practice showing up for your own desires and being curious about theirs is always a good thing if you get to that point. You know, once you start having a sexual relationship, talking about sex is a good idea.
- [48:26]
A
It's so interesting to me because as someone who is bisexual, the. I find when you're talking to different people on various apps, men and men do this so much differently than men and women do.
- [48:37]
B
Don't tell me, because I. Yeah, I
- [48:41]
A
mean, when you're on like the various gay apps, you know, it's like that's literally how people say hello. They tell you what they're, what they're into. And like, sometimes, like, can we just say hello first and then you can
- [48:54]
B
maybe share that dick pic with me?
- [48:57]
A
I'm like, sure, I'll say yes if you ask me if I want to see it. But, like, don't just assume that I want to see it. Right. Like yeah, that's kind of my only hang up.
- [49:05]
B
I wouldn't call that a hang up. That is just a consent boundary. That's totally reasonable.
- [49:10]
A
And I was kind of using that word a little. Yeah, I know, but that was a good clarification. But like I've known, I've been bisexual for as long as I can remember, since I was a kid. I knew that.
- [49:20]
B
Yeah, me too. I had my first girlfriend at 15. So I've been bi for years and
- [49:25]
A
years, but I only fully came out like four years ago, maybe five years ago. And you know, part of being a closeted bisexual man that, you know, for, for many, many years, you know, with men it was just sex. And now that I'm out, I'm like, I don't want it to just be sex. Like, I want relationship. And now I'm like, I feel like I'm having to like relearn all of relationship interactions because it's like, I don't know, it just feels different to me as I'm, I think, yes, more and more of who I am.
- [50:04]
B
Well, let's acknowledge that dating is just also weird. And I mean if we just take that as a premise that like people behave strangely all the time in dating and especially with the apps, it's gotten, you know, the, the culture around it, people are off their rockers a lot of about what's going to work for them. And so we wouldn't necessarily go into, you know, a stadium, a football stadium full of people and expect them all to behave rationally if we talked about what they are looking for. Dating, right? Like you just be like, okay, there's a bunch of. This is just not, not everybody's going to be a great fit for me. But in apps we have so many interactions with random strangers that we get like a very strange pool of fish sometimes. So people do weird things like send unsolicited dick pics. Always not recommended. But also, you know, it also depends on the, the sort of like culture. Right? So I have like some of my colleagues who are gay male coaches have talked to me about the same problem. Some of my gay male client clients and friends have talked to me about, you know, that the culture for men, dating men tends to be really hypersexual and it feels really disconnecting and sad to a lot of people. Like they actually want a little bit of flirtation and romance and like, could we get to know each other a bit before you want me just to drop trou? Right. Like this is really common for people to express and I think it's part of how we've socialized boys and men, to not talk about feelings, that it feels much more comfortable. It's so sad. It's like, I mean, this is how the patriarchy has really screwed over men. Right. And it's like, so sad because it keeps people from having the deep connections that they could have in their lives and because men are also lovely human beings, most of them, and deserve that connection, but don't necessarily know how to lead with it. So I think your experience is really normal and valid and not uncommon. But yeah, it's. It's wild west out there in the dating world.
- [52:26]
A
It's weird. I mean, it's weird. I know. Like, it's. It's somewhere between comical and concerning. Like, it's.
- [52:35]
B
Yeah. You know, and I think it's just, like, really okay to lead with what you want, including emotions. Right. Hey, I would really like an emotional connection before we move on to the next phase. Right. Before we discuss all our kinks, I would like to see if we could get through a cup of coffee together enjoyably. Right. I think that's also okay to ask for. And we need to ask for what we want in terms of touch and sex, but we also need to ask for how we want to be loved.
- [53:05]
A
How we want to be loved. Yeah. That is what makes us feel loved. And. Yeah, because I think the, you know, the importance of just self awareness in all domains of life, I think is incredible. But, like, especially when it comes to our relationships.
- [53:20]
B
Yep, absolutely.
- [53:22]
A
All right, one more question here for you. So, you know, over. Over the years, obviously, I think there's been a lot more acceptance the LGBTQ community, I still feel like. And then there's, you know, my particular cohort of bisexual men, which is why I came out, because I was like, where are the examples of other bisexual men I had? Like, I'm like, okay, if there aren't really any out there, I need to be one of those voices. So that was one of my reasons for. For coming out. What about for polyamory? I still feel that's very, like, ooh, you're going to tell someone you're polyamorous. What do you think about that?
- [54:02]
B
It is a challenge. And, you know, all of these things overlap a lot with neurodivergence. Of course, as you know, there's just more neurodivergent people are in. Are queer in some way, shape or form, are gender questioning in some way, shape or form, or like, non conforming to gender and are polyamorous. And a lot of people don't understand polyamory because we have such a. You know, the last several hundred years have been very, very heavily influenced by church doctrine. And in most of our modern, larger societies and certainly like kind of major urbanized and developed countries societies, we have normalized monogamy when humans are not historically monogamous. And to be honest, we're not even monogamous now. I mean, there is no evidence for us being monogamous ever. There, there is purported monogamy, but the reality has never been actually true. There have been, you know, it's just not true in human history. So I think that. But I do think you're right. That whole, oh, you're polyamorous. It's either. It's kind of like, oh, it reminds me a bit about how people treated me as a bisexual in the 90s. Like, I don't believe in you. Like, you're telling me you're basically a unicorn. Like, they believed in. They didn't believe that I was bisexual. So the, you know, I'm sure you got the.
- [55:33]
A
Pick a side or maybe it's a face.
- [55:35]
B
Oh, constantly. Yeah. Being in, like, especially. So I was San Francisco Bay area in the 90s, and, you know, lesbian women were very exclusionary to me and very much like, with the exception of a couple friends that I maintain who are absolutely fabulous. Shout out to y', all, the vast majority of people were like, you're either somehow, like, lying to yourself about who you are, and this is a phase that you're going through. And admittedly, there are a lot of gay people who pretend. Who pretend to be bisexual for a little while because it feels more, quote, unquote, palatable for a little bit. It's almost like this transitionary phase where they kind of use our identity to help ease their transition. But that doesn't mean that there's not real. Just because you dress your dog up like a cat doesn't mean it's a cat, you know? You know, But I think polyamory has a little bit of that too. Like, oh, is it. I don't quite believe you. Like, it's not really an orientation, or it's like a trend or it's something to be somehow ashamed of. And you can't tell the PTA and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So it's a real conundrum for a lot of people. How do they navigate their identity? And it's kind of, at this point, a personal preference, whether you want to be out about it and where you feel safe being out about it.
- [56:59]
A
I personally think that especially neurodivergent folks, if they were to relearn about ethical non monogamy and polyamory, I think it would be very appealing. But I think the idea is you got to learn about it so you know how to talk about it. Because it's so much of it is about communication.
- [57:17]
B
Yeah. And there's a lot of, you know, just like anything, there's so many opinions about how you're quote, unquote, supposed to do it or. And there's like, especially if you're in the younger generations where you still are trying to listen to that kind of stuff. I'm old enough that I don't care anymore, but I don't need somebody else to tell me how to do it. But there's a lot of, like, you should be this way, you should be that way. You're supposed to follow these rules. You're supposed to follow those rules instead of allowing people to really navigate what feels right and true to them with their partner. And so it can get very scene, story, scene, story. You know, like, it's like a scene. It's kind of like a. Do I fit into this box or that box? And how do I. How I identify as sort of like a. Is a thing I feel very attached to and defend vociferously as opposed to. It's about me and my. It's private to me and whoever I'm with. You know, I don't have to sort of push it on anybody. Isn't. I don't have to be evangelically polyamorous.
- [58:26]
A
It's kind of like pickleball players. They'll let you eat a pickleball.
- [58:30]
B
There's a scene with everything including various different types and camps of polyamory. Or like, you know, it's kind of like I listen to heavy metal and so there's, you know, there's a million different kinds of heavy metal and there's like a name for each kind of sub genre. And polyamory is a little bit like that. It's, you know, are you a relationship anarchist or are you, you know, whatever? So there we can get too involved in that and forget, like, the actual reality is what feels good to you in your current relationships right now and how do you communicate honestly with each other about it?
- [59:08]
A
If people want to learn more about you, where can they reach? I know we gave the website. We gave it again. And anywhere else you would like to be able to.
- [59:15]
B
Sure, yeah. So the easiest thing, since you're already a podcast listener is to find me at the Desire Gap podcast. And the other easy way to find me is on my website. And you just have to make sure to spell my name with a U. I am not, unfortunately, the heir to the hand lotion empire. So it is Laura J U R G E N S dot com, and I know that. Eric, you're going to link it in the show notes.
- [59:43]
A
Please tell me what you just said in part of your marketing about not being the heir.
- [59:49]
B
I mean, I don't really market myself as not being here. I would love to be the heir to the hand lotion empire. And if anybody who is the hand lotion empire is, like, listening and you want to add me, feel free.
- [60:01]
A
That'd be a great fit.
- [60:02]
B
You know, it's complimentary. I know. I mean, maybe I could talk them into starting to market some lube or something.
- [60:09]
A
Yeah, right. Some sponsored stuff. Opportunities there.
- [60:12]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [60:13]
A
This was. This was a lot of fun and I thank you for this candid conversation.
- [60:18]
B
That was so much fun, Eric.
- [60:19]
A
I hope listeners got a lot out of it as well and hope they check out your podcast too. Thank you so much.
- [60:23]
B
Thanks so much.