Loading summary
Transcript43 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hey, welcome to the All Pro Dad Podcast. My name is Ted Lowe, and I'm joined today by Bobby Lewis and BJ Foster. And today is a. It's a heavy one. It's an important one. But I've. I mean, it's. It is heavy, but we've got to talk about it. And that is, how do we protect our kids from groomers?
- [00:17]
B
Yeah, and I think grooming is just such a large term that encompasses so many things. I think it's good to define it from the outset. Grooming is establishing a relationship, usually by someone who's a little bit older, who has some power, has some influence to lower inhibitions with the long term goal of sexual abuse. That's what we're talking about when we talk about grooming. And the first thing that pops to my mind when we were discussing this was the case of Larry Nassar. And I don't know if everyone in our audience knows who that is. Larry Nassar, he's spending the rest of his life in prison because he was a creep. He was a sexual deviant, he was a predator. He was also the official team doctor for Team USA's Olympic team for years and years. And over the course of those, you know, many decades as a doctor, he lowered the inhibitions of these young girls so that he could abuse them. And he did it in a very sneaky, tactical way, but he was the very definition of a groomer. And he was convicted of all of his crimes. He'll spend the rest of his life, I think it's two life sentences, if I'm correct, in prison for what he did, and he deserves it. But I watched a documentary on Larry Nassar. It broke my heart because now these women have grown up, they're adults now, but they were kids when they were in the Olympics and under his care as a doctor. And some of the testimonial was just, oh, you just turned your stomach. I ran across a couple of quotes from one of the gymnasts that was in this documentary. It was from Jamie Dancer. She was on the Team USA Olympic bronze medal winning team in 2000 that competed in Sydney. Here's a couple of things that she said about Larry Nassar. She said, I trusted him. I didn't really think about it. I felt like he was my buddy. And it seemed like he was on our side. So there's a very real point to say, yeah, he was lowering our inhibitions.
- [01:57]
C
He.
- [01:57]
B
He made us feel like he made us think we were all friends. And then another quote that I just thought was awful Was, I thought that everything was normal. And when she was talking about everything, she's referring to naked physical exams in a room by himself with no parents around. Because they were in the care of the team. They were under the care of coaches, they were with doctors. They're training for the Olympics. You know, parents aren't sitting there babysitting them all day long. They were off at the Olympic training. And so these girls were just, you know, without really much choice, under the care of adults who were taking advantage of them. Another quote from one of the gymnasts was, there was a culture of silence and fear, fear imposed on the young ladies. They just thought everything was normal. And it made me so sad to think about this, because maybe in your mind, if you're a dad listening to this right now, you're like, oh, it'll never happen to me. It'll never happen to my kid. It'll never happen to their friends. What are the odds? The odds are probably far greater than you think.
- [02:52]
C
Yeah, there's a pretty threatening world here. This is something that I've been doing a lot of research on. I've written several articles about. So we'll put those articles in the show notes so that parents can refer back to it. But according. According to the Child Crime Prevention and Safety center, there's an estimated 500,000 predators online every day. And in Great Britain, they've seen an uptick of about 82% in predatorial activity online in the last five years. So I'm sure if it's happening in Great Britain, it's happening in the United States. It's probably happening everywhere, probably the same levels. And so this is something I think we need to be very vigilant about in preparing our kids, because particularly as they go into the online area, we can kind of think, our house, they're fine, and they're. They're walking into a territory that can be infested with sharks. And, you know, people that are. That are kind of coming after them.
- [03:50]
B
Yeah.
- [03:50]
A
And I think it's important for us to say we're talking about grooming. Where's this happening? It is happening online, but it's also happening in real time, like with this doctor. And so is a definite threat that we've got to be aware of. And I think it's very important for us to say that it's not always just a creepy guy. Right. Sometimes it can be a minor who's a couple years older, someone that uses their size, their age, their influence to leverage that strength and that power to use A kid.
- [04:26]
B
Yeah. Two challenges I want to pose to dads who are listening right now. One, just delete the idea in your head that it's a dude in a white van driving our neighborhood. That's not what we're talking about. It's not that type of grooming. It happens far more prevalently and it's usually people that you know. And then the other challenge. Challenge is don't turn this podcast off.
- [04:45]
A
It's.
- [04:45]
B
It's not comfortable. And I, and I. It's weird. Like we were just talking about it before we started recording. Like it's not a fun thing to talk about, but that's where you need to lock in. Because if you don't get this information and you don't understand how kids are being groomed and how prevalent it is, you just slip right under the radar and that. We don't want that for your kids. We don't want that for any kids. So lock in and listen. I know it's uncomfortable sometimes, but this is so important. We got to talk about it.
- [05:09]
C
So we want to take a look at what the signs are. But first, I think it's important to kind of take a look at what are the tactics of child predators and to. The tactics in, you know, in the physical world and in the online world are similar, but they've got kind of distinct differences. So number one, in the real world, I'm glad you guys said it, most of the time it's somebody that the family knows. It's somebody that's kind of close, probably even, you know, has a level of trust to a. Assume that everybody's okay just because you know them is right off the bat. But one of the, the first thing they need to do is they need access to kids. And, and by the way, I don't want, you know, don't assume that just because somebody has a job where they're working with kids that they're all predators. Like, that's not. But it is something to look out for. It's. I don't think you should assume that everybody's safe either. That's the problem. So they need access to kids, so they're going to go where the kids are. And by the way, all of these tactics, it's not a step by step thing. A lot of these kind of grooming tactics are taking place at the same time. So they need to find a place where kids are. They need to. They'd access to kids next. They, they need to. They're. They're probably looking for a kid that's vulnerable. A kid that's hurt, someone that's discarded. That's. So that's why I, you know, a lot of kids in the orphanage system, you know, kind of that they are, you know, vulnerable to this kind of thing. But even if. If you're a great dad and, and you're married to a woman or, you know, or. Or divorced from a woman who's a great mom, there's. There's still the possibility that you have a kid that's hurt, lonely, on the outskirts of things, and it makes them. They're looking for that kid. And so if you've got a kid that's vulnerable, you need to be aware of that. Next. They're trying to look for. They're trying to create trust with the kid. Sometimes they'll even go through the family first. They'll go through the parents first, earn trust there, get access to the kid. And then they're going to try to get them alone by themselves, and they're going to start to push boundaries. So they're going to start to introduce physical touch. They're going to start to introduce hugging, maybe kissing. They're going to start to tell inappropriate jokes, turn the conversation sexual. Maybe, probably in a lot of cases, they introduce pornography for the first time, and then that gives them a little bit of leverage. Hey, you know, like, if your parents find out about this, you're going to get in trouble. So then there's this pressure to keep it a secret because the kids, you know, kind of in this position of feeling pressure.
- [08:03]
A
Yeah. And want us to double click on the. The idea, hey, this is. Sometimes people, you know, a lot of times, and what will, you know, parents will say, you know, I never drew that. I thought. Knew that. I thought I knew him or knew her. And it's just something we got to be aware of. It's not the stereotypical creeper you've already said, but I think we need to say it again.
- [08:24]
C
Well, and, you know, we. My wife and I have a good friend who. She told her family this family friend, dad did this to me. And they still to this day don't believe her. He would never do that. And that's. So that's the type of thing we can't just assume. What you need to assume is that everybody is capable of anything, period. Assume that, go into it with that assumption. Don't assume they're doing it, but assume they're capable of. Of doing it. And that gives you an opportunity to watch, watch out for it. Gives you a better kind of position. So online grooming a little it's, you know, they a lot of times will pose as a child to the. It's similar. They're looking for trust. They're looking to kind of gain the trust and then they'll gradually move the conversation more sexual, maybe in group settings. But eventually what they're going to try to do is they're going to try to get the child alone. Whereas in grooming in real life, the groomer tries to get in with the parents and establish trust. What they try to do online is they try to separate the child from the parent. So, you know, sowing seeds of oh, they don't get you, you know, come over here and. And then they try to get them in a one on one conversation. You know, let's, let's message, let's talk, let's get alone over here. And then finally they're looking for leverage. So send me a naked pic. Do this kind of something that they can hold over the child. Hold, hold over power. The, the most common one is that, is that naked picture because it's like, hey, I'm going to send this out to everybody unless you do X, Y and Z. And then, and then they will try to move it into the. Some. A lot of times they'll try to move it physical world. Hey, let's meet up and let's do this.
- [10:37]
B
Yeah. And the online groomer's biggest tool is anonymity. I mean if you're letting your kids talk to people online, they don't know red flag, stop that. Cut it off immediately. Because that is a great tactic for an online predator. Susie1234 screen name. Like you don't know. That's really Susie. Like it might be an adult. We don't really know. And there's a whole entire division of law enforcement that just looks into that sort of stuff to try to catch these guys who are doing it online. It made me think about, I don't know if you guys remember the show To Catch a Predator. You remember that on tv. It was years and years ago, I came across a YouTube channel that was all like true crime stuff. And it had like millions of followers on this YouTube channel. 4, 5, 6 million subscribers. And their top five videos of all time were from To Catch a Predator. And one of the most viewed videos, they have like 70 million views of this one clip of To Catch a Predator where the host of the show, they would lure these predators to a physical location acting as if they were like a teenage child. The person was trying to pursue this teenage child for sex. And they met them in person and, oh, surprise, there's law enforcement. They arrest the guy, they take him to jail. It was on TV forever. This was on TV 20 years before social media even existed. And yet they were still getting guys to show up to try to, you know, catch these kids. How much worse is it now? It's so much easier. These predators have so much ease of access to kids because social media and online communication is just commonplace. It makes you think it'd be even worse now than it was when that show was popular.
- [12:09]
A
Yeah. So we. We know it's there. It's a real thing. There's not a debate. Are you sure this is happening? We know it's happening. And here are some signs to look out for. Is, number one, look for when your child receives a lot of attention from a person. Yeah.
- [12:22]
B
This is especially meaningful to me because I talked to my wife about this before we recorded this episode, and I got her permission to share some stories because she has a lot of experience with this. When she was a mid middle school, high school girl, she was a swimmer. She was on the swim team. She worked at the ymca. She was on swim coaches. She was also a golfer. She had coaches in her life. She had a handful of stories where had another adult not step in. It could have gotten really bad. And she didn't even realize because she was so young and innocent and naive in many ways, like a lot of kids are. And she had a particular golf coach who would give her detention for seemingly no reason or, like, ridiculous reasons. But the detention would always be, you and I go together. It's not in the classroom where you're, you know, just doing chores. The two of them would go out behind the school and hit golf balls. Just the two of them for, like, hours. And my wife at the time, she would go home and tell her parents. She's like, it just is weird. Like, no, no other kids get detention outside hitting golf balls. And she thought, well, he's my golf coach, so that's okay. I guess, like, it makes sense. But they always told her, like, if this happens again, like, tell another teacher and don't go because it's weird behavior. Right. Nothing ever became of that. Later on in her life, she was a camp counselor, and excuse me, this was a different story. She wasn't a camp counselor. She was actually a camper at this camp. And she had a trusted adult who was there. And the trusted adult would pick out, like, the kids who they thought were responsible. Quote, unquote to help them with tasks. And one day this responsible adult was like, hey, why don't you come to the shed with me? I need to get some stuff out of the shed. And so she, being a young girl, was going with this adult to the shed that was behind the building to get some supplies or whatever. And another counselor at the camp's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why don't you come with me, sweetie? And intercepted that. We don't know what would have happened. But it's weird behavior, right, to have an adult take a young camper by herself off behind the building, right? She was safe there. And there was another time when she was in high school where she had a coach who gave her extra special attention, like bought her goggles, bought her swim caps, bought her swimsuits, that sort of stuff. And always stand behind her on the dive block and comment on her form like, oh, yeah, you're a great kicker. I love to watch you kick that sort of stuff. And it creeped her out. Like, you know, freshman sophomore in high school, she went home and told her parents. And she's. The parents are like, never be alone with this coach. And so whenever the coach would call her into the office, she'd take a friend and the friend would go in, and it just gave her the creeps. And it turns out, years later, it found out that he had groomed other young girls and he eventually fled the country because he had gotten caught for some stuff. And they don't even know where he is now. No idea. And I was like, man, like, what could have been? She was smart enough in the moment to tell her parents. And her parents stepped in and they said, sweetie, I'm so glad you said something, because we don't know their intentions, but they don't look good. And so let's avoid this altogether. You know, it was sad. You know, I didn't even know my wife at that age. I didn't meet her until we were in college. All this happened well before we met. But I felt bad for her in those moments because, like I said, it just so sent off her little spidey sense something's not right, you know, thankfully, it did.
- [15:35]
A
Well, my daughter works at a summer camp, and they have a hard and fast rule. You're never to be alone with a child ever. And even our church is the same way. You're never allowed to be with a child ever. And she goes, and it's hard when you got runners. She goes, you're screaming at another counselor, you know, leave your kids but we cannot. It's. Because that's how it happens. Leverage, power, and isolation. Yeah.
- [16:02]
B
Isolation is the weapon. That's what this coach did for my wife.
- [16:05]
A
Oh.
- [16:06]
B
Just the two of us are gonna go hit golf balls. No one else is gonna be around. You're not gonna. You're not. You're.
- [16:10]
A
You're.
- [16:11]
B
Okay. It's just you and I, or. Why don't you come to my office? Just be with me in the office. We'll talk about whatever swim lesson we have today or. Why don't you come with me to the shed? Isolation is a predator's biggest friend. That's a. That's a certain red flag to tell your kids. If any adult is saying, why don't you come with me? No. The answer is no, I'm not doing that. And like you said, it's not guaranteed, bj, that something bad is going to happen, but everyone's capable of it. So red flags all around. And not red flags because it's going to happen. But like you said earlier, you have to assume that whoever's trying to isolate your kid is capable of doing something wrong. Another thing that we need to look out for is when your child exhibits unusual behavior, something that's out of character for them.
- [16:55]
A
Them.
- [16:55]
B
If a child is being groomed, they may change their mood significantly. If they're younger, maybe they're. They're wetting the bed. Like something that's just out of the norm, that just seemingly comes out of nowhere. Like where. Why is this happening? It's not definite that they're being groomed, but it is a sign, because kids who are being groomed, they act out in those sort of ways.
- [17:14]
C
And there's. They can be in those situations. They can be secretive, closed off. They can isolate in their rooms. Like, those are all the things. Because if they've got leverage, if a predator has leverage over them, then they're going to be feeling an intense amount of shame, and they don't know what to do with it.
- [17:31]
B
By nature, the predator, the end goal is some sort of sexual abuse. That's the goal of the predator. So another thing to look for for your kids, if they've been groomed or they're being groomed, is they become desensitized to crude humor, sexual activity, sexual language, entertainment, music, movies. If none of that stuff bothers them, but maybe it did in the past, that's a. That maybe they're being fed that sort of stuff by a groomer. Big problem, obviously.
- [17:59]
C
So another sign to look for is if they've got an aversion to a certain person and we, we can look at our kids and kind of feel like you're being rude and just pass it off as a, hey, don't, you know, hey, give them a little attention. Don't turn your head, you know. But if they, if you're seeing consistent signs that they have an aversion to a certain person, then you need to start asking them questions. Hey, and when you start asking questions to them, you need to realize that the person might have leverage over them so they might be slow to divulge. So, hey, what's going on? You need to let them know that, hey, you're not going to get in trouble. You just need to let me know what's kind of going on here, make it a safe place for them to be able to talk. So then the question is, okay, you're seeing the signs. Now what do you do now? First thing you got to do is make sure that they're not alone with the person. Their safety is your number one priority. I think you need to talk to them, start asking them questions and recognize that they're not gonna, they're probably not gonna divulge everything right away. You're gonna need to make sure that it's a safe place that they can divulge because they're probably going to be fearing some sort of punishment or repercussion because of what's gone on. There's shame there. That's a very tender, hurt filled place. And so, you know, you're poking your way into some, into a holy area that you need to be very careful with. But then you need to talk to your kids about what's appropriate and what's not, that it's not appropriate for them to touch you a certain way or in certain places. These places aren't dirty, but it's just, they're not allowed access to these things. They shouldn't be talking about. Certain, like if, if they're with an adult like you, you need to introduce the whole idea of, you know, pornography and, you know, stuff that's not appropriate, inappropriate ways to joke with an adult. It's, it's very difficult. And the one thing that I get asked more than anything is, is we are ruining our kids innocence with, with this stuff. Well, maybe, but like, there's nothing that will ruin their innocence more than if the, if the predator achieves their ultimate goals. So, so it's important that we protect our kids by preparing them. And you know, there, there are certain times, I mean, it's you know, where we kind of force kids to just like, hey, go hug so and so. And if we see an aversion to that, we need to kind of take that seriously and ask questions like, hey, why?
- [20:49]
A
You know.
- [20:50]
B
Yeah, we stopped doing that. Actually. For some reason, my youngest daughter didn't want to hug certain members of the family. Not because we thought they were weird, but she just didn't want to. And I would say, no, go hug so and so. And my wife and I talked about it and we're like, nope, I am not going to tell her to do that. If she doesn't want to hug someone, I am not going to make her hug someone. Because, you know, you're training a child to, like, put someone else's comfort ahead of your own. And that in many ways does kind of dovetail with this sort of thing. If they're just going along, they don't want to upset whoever is in that position of authority that you mentioned. Ted, sometimes you need to, to push back on that sort of stuff, and you could be saving yourself heartache, you know.
- [21:31]
A
BJ, I want you to comment on. We talk a lot about, you know, talking about a kid's body and how we need to talk to the kids about the body. How does that relate to this? And talk to a dad who's got a younger kid who's saying, I don't want to, you know, take away their innocence. What is something a dad can do to talk about their kid's body in a way that's appropriate and protective of them?
- [21:53]
C
Well, I think it's, you know, kind of your control of your body. You know, we don't want to be rude to people. Like, that's, you know, for sure. Like, we certainly don't want to be rude to people. But when you, when you start to kind of see the signs of boy, they don't want to do it with this one person, you know, and, man, who knows? Maybe they're starting to shut. All of a sudden, they start to shut down and they don't want to be hugging anyone or that, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, we need to tell them, look, look, you're in control of your body, body, and they're, they're people that now sometimes, I mean, look, you go to the doctor, and I know we had a doctor, but I've remarried. I remember distinctly, we took our kid for a physical examination, and it was a woman doctor, and she says, now it's okay for me to examine this thing because your parents are in the room and because I need to look. I need. I need to be looking for this, this and this and then she gloves on and that kind of thing. You know, it's very different than you. Dr. Nasser situation.
- [22:58]
B
Yeah, well, like we talked about isolation. Like, he would say, no one else is here, just you and me. Parents aren't here, coaches in here, teammates aren't here. Just us. That's the problem. It's the isolation.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:08]
C
So.
- [23:09]
A
And we talk to our kids with, this is your penis and this is your vagina. No one touches that ever. That is space. That is you. This is your bum. Nobody touches that. Just had to be really clear.
- [23:21]
B
Yeah.
- [23:22]
A
Not using silly names and all that. Just we got to be very clear with them, you know, because we can call them other things because it feels uncomfortable to us. We got to be really clear. It's unfortunate that we do, but we do. One of the things I would say too is trust your gut. Like, you don't need a lot of facts. You don't need to figure it out. If somebody is. You're just going, wait, something doesn't feel right. We had a babysitter one time and she. There was just something off to me. I felt like she was way too interested in one of our kids. Like she would take, you know, and she was a sweet girl and. But I thought, you're too interested in him. Like there's. You're posting photos of him only just, you know, like something doesn't feel right. And I told Nancy, this doesn't feel right. And she goes, I don't feel it. But if you say it, she goes, I get it. And I would do the same thing with her. So just, just trust your gut on it. Because I think sometimes you've got a wiring for your kid that you can't explain. So don't feel like you've got to make it all make sense. One of the things our friends taught us really early on that were a few years ahead of us, every time they would pick their kids up from somewhere that they weren't there, they would pick them up and they'd been with adults. They would say, does anybody make you feel uncomfortable? And they would even do an after grandparents trips. Not because they thought grandparents were doing anything, obviously, but it was this thing of going, I'm going to ask you a question. So when you do feel uncomfortable, I know mom and dad want. So we did that with our kids. Anybody make you feel uncomfortable? And also I would say we did this too. We gave our kids. We will always be Your out of a tough situation, if it's weird to get out of there or you're feeling like somebody's going to be judged or a group of friends, you blame it 100% on us. You can roll your eyes. My parents, they're the worst. Or just let me know if you ever need us. We will be your excuse to get out because sometimes, like socially, they don't know what's going on. Right. They don't know what they're feeling. They don't doing it. So we've got to be there. Again, it's about protection. Yeah.
- [25:29]
B
Here's the very uncomfortable truth about grooming. Whether it's online, whether it's in person, groomers have no problem playing a long game. If it takes 10 years to get to their desired ends, they'll play the long game. They'll let it take 10 years. They don't care, so be it. If it takes 10 years because
- [25:49]
C
they're
- [25:49]
B
fine with the process. And so for us to let up our guard just because we've been around someone for a long time or we've gotten familiar with them, they've gotten closer. You can't assume. You just can't assume. Because the long game, they're totally comfortable with it. And that's the truth. We got to know that.
- [26:05]
C
No, they'll be very patient. And another aspect of this thing that I failed to mention during the tactics of online, of the online aspect is that they will work together. That this is something that kind of turned my stomach is that the algorithm of what they search for online will give them more child content and that will help them connect to other people that are interested in the same content. And they will work with one another and a lot of times they'll work with each other on a particular child to kind of help one another. And so. And they're very patient and they play the long game and yeah, they'll continue at it after it to get to their goal.
- [26:53]
A
This has been tough, but it's been so important for us to talk about. And so our pro move of this week is to talk to your kids about these tactics so they'll know what's appropriate and what's not. If you've felt just an inkling, just as you're listening to this, of curiosity and go, oh, I've never thought about it like that. And I do have a kind of a weird feeling with this certain person. Trust your gut. Your pro move might be to say, I'm going to figure this out today. I'm going to have a conversation with my kids. And that's the pro move for all of us, which is to talk to your kids about these tactics so that they know what's appropriate and what's not. And we also wanted to let you know that if you go into the show notes, we've got links to a lot of articles to help you understand this even more. We always want to be here for you all the time, so you can check that out online. Thank you for listening. More than ever, we want to say thank you for listening. We know this was not an easy listen, but we know that your kids and you will be glad that you did.
- [27:57]
C
Thanks again for listening to the All Pro Dad Podcast. Behind every episode is our amazing team producer, Haley Mwat, audio and video editor Buck Buchanan, and production coordinator Corey Walliffe. All Pro Dan is the first fatherhood program of the nonprofit Family first, along with our motherhood program imom. We exist to help you love your family well. So remember, if you have more questions than answers, then you're probably in the right place. See you next time.