A (2:50)

You know, I think for me, one of the biggest difference that I've seen between when I was growing up and I wouldn't say as much my kids, but just kids in general was just, what, what does it mean to be connected? You know, for me it was, you know, being with my friends, you know, or being with family. It was person to person. And for kids, I think now they feel connected online or through video games. And so I think that's part of the reason people are not rushing to get driver's license because they are always already feel connected. Like, I don't need to drive anywhere to do that. And so I think that was the biggest difference. It's what does it mean to be connected? And so I think as dads, how this relates to coddling is we know that our kids need to have one on one personal relationships. They need to be with other people. And it's really easy for us to say, well, kids today, this is just how they connect and let it go. But that in some ways is really coddling them to not have to step out in that. And that leads us to our big question of the week is are we coddling our kids?

B (4:02)

Well, I think one of the best places to start with this, a guy named Jonathan Haidt who's written the Anxious Generation. I think he co authored a book called the Coddling of the American Mind. And I want to read a quote and it's a little bit lengthy, but stay with it because I think it really kind of speaks into what we' about today. Jonathan, I said this, he said about kids today, they're not used to being independent. When they get to college, they need more help. They're asking adults for more help. Protect me from this. Punish him for saying that. Protect me from that book. Students are thinking in terms of safety and danger. Students say by their own admission, they feel more fragile. They use a language of fragility, weakness, trauma, triggering. They see triggers all over the world. What are triggers? Triggers are cases where you take a part of your nervous system and you say, if someone says that word, they can control my nervous system and make me afraid and anxious. That's a terrible idea. We should not be teaching our kids to see the world as being full of triggers. We should teach them to live in a world that is physically quite safe but full of offensive statements and ideas. And so I know that was a lot. That was a little bit of a mouthful, but any. And he says a lot there. But what do you guys think about what Jonathan Heights said? Agree, disagree, see it, don't see it.

A (5:30)

Well, first, I'll say this. As somebody that struggles with ADHD and then having kids that struggle with their mental health in different ways, especially with anxiety, I love that the world is talking more about mental health. You know, at the same time, as we've talked about it, we've redefined so many things. We've redefined, you know, what a trigger is. We've redefined what a trauma is. And definitions are important. And I've watched with my daughter, who's so gracious to let me talk about her all the time, who struggles with anxiety. I watched when it. When it first started, her anxiety, it was like this freedom that finally there's a label. I'm not the only one. I have anxiety. I. But what I also watched happen, and I don't think this is just true for her was with acceptance comes surrender. Well, I can't go to this party because I have anxiety, or I can't go here because I'm overstimulated. And so. Which some of that was true. But I did watch her feel, like, relieved at first. I'm not the only one. But then I see her stressed by it, and it made her feel almost helpless. And so one of the things we've tried to say around our house is, hey, hey, we can do hard things. You know, you can do hard things. And reminding you, you did this last week, you can do hard things. And it's kind of a joke now that we'll say to each other, we're like, oh, I don't want to go tomorrow. Don't forget, you can do hard things. And so I think we have to be so careful what we're defining as capital T trauma and capital T triggers. So I could not agree with that more.

C (7:12)

Yeah, I am so afraid I'm going to sound like old man, get off my lawn. Yelling at the clouds and this whole

A (7:18)

episode, do it, Bobby.

C (7:19)

But I'm afraid of. I don't want to be that guy. But I think I'm going to.

A (7:22)

You are that guy, Bobby. That's why we love you.

C (7:24)

I think deep down I'm like, just stop. Like, you're okay, kid. But I am sympathetic to a lot of things. Like what height said, I think is 100% correct. I think when everything is trauma, nothing's trauma in many ways. There's got to be a definition for some of these words. And if we coddle our kids, I think we remove the ability for them to develop thick skin. Like, you got to have some abrasions. You got to have, like, calluses built up to where you can, like you said, do hard things. And if we remove the opportunity for kids to do the hard things, then they're never going to develop the thick skin they need, because when they leave your house, no one's going to be coddling them anymore. Swim, kid. Like, you, like, they're going to, they're going to expect you to do stuff. And so if we coddled them too long, we're going to send them out and they're not going to be ready for it. I don't think. And so I kind of think that when you lean too far into feelings, you become a little. But again, that's just the get off my lawn part of me that I'm trying to reject a little bit. You know, I won't say soft anymore. I'm not gonna say that. I'm done with that word.

B (8:25)

Well, I, yeah, and a little bit like you, like, I completely, I completely see it. I, I think one of the things, like, I think about my childhood and we were constantly like, getting into danger was what we did. Like, like it was, hey, let's take a rope and fashion it to that, to that branch and swing over. You know, we ended up with broken limbs and all this stuff. You know, we weren't trying the tree or limbs. Both.

C (8:52)

Yeah.

B (8:52)

But more I was thinking broken arms and, and legs and, and, you know, let's climb to the top of that tree. We were kind of running into danger. And, you know, I, I, I do think that this generation doesn't, doesn't do that as much. One of the things that was really interesting, my wife came across this article about a woman who is from Generation X and she show kids the movie Dead Poet Society. And, and she was kind of shocked at what the, you know, at the end, the guys stand up. If you've seen the movie, they stand up on their desks and, you know, they're, they're, you know, they're captain, my Captain. Yeah, Captain, my captain. And it's this triumphal moment and you know, then the movie ends and she turned to her. Her kids, her Generation Z kids. And like she goes, what did you think? And they were like, why would you show us such a traumatizing movie? And you know, traumatizing because it had sad parts in it. But she's like, yeah, but they, but they stood up, you know, they stood up at the end as you know, and, and they said, yeah, but the, it didn't change anything. And she's like, well, change for them. Like they're really insights, their insight. Like they had bravery. They stood as individuals. And the kids were like, yeah, but the system still exists. The system where they're trying to push these kids in a box, that still exists. So in her words, it was that she valued or generation, our generation valued and this is her words, that they stood up to an outdated system and that was the victory. What the, what Generation Z would have valued is that the system was torn down. That there was this unsafe system that existed and it needed to be a, it needed to be abolished. This generation of kids are dealing with so much anxiety. How can we set them up with coping mechanisms to handle it? And am I doing, do I need to change what I'm doing?

A (11:00)

Well, I personally think that we should go back to the 80s and get every kid a three wheeler. Yeah.

C (11:08)

No helmet. No helmet.

A (11:10)

Oh no. You know, my dad got us those because he thought that motorcycles were too dangerous. We have, we have just teased him forever because those were banned by the government. But we were, we were out independent doing those things. And I'm, you know, bj, Our generation got, got angry. So I think there's this balance that we're talking about. When we think about coddling and how what this looks like. I think one of the things that could be really great about this next generation is because they are talking about how they're processing, how they see things, the internal life that's going on. I think when you're talking about Dead Poet Society, they had an internal victory. Like, I'm tougher now and I can do this. And I see the world in a different way. And I think now kids can look at it and go, I've got to fix things externally, to feel different internally. And that can be a struggle. But I think as dads, we've got this opportunity to leverage the fact that kids will talk more about what they're feeling or leverage the fact that they are outwardly focused and you know, one of the Things as the Low family. So many of us, you know, there's six of us and five of us have been to counseling and the sixth one needs to go. But one of the things that we've all learned, it's our tools. There's some tools. How do you, how do you self regulate? What are some tools that you can use? And you know, one of the things our counselor told our daughter when she was struggling with anxiety, I think it was about 10th grade at this point, she said, I know you feel like you're struggling way more than kids in your class, but you're getting your tools early. So in your toolbox. And we're watching that happen now. So the big joke at our house is, can you tell? Everything at our house is a big joke. But it really does. If we don't, if the Lows don't laugh about all this mental illness, you know, we're going to be a very sad group. But it's the thing, hey, use your tools or I don't. You know, when someone acts crazy, I don't think they have their tools yet. But it's the things that teaching our kids, okay, here's what's going on with me. Okay? Now what do you do about it? And I feel like those tools are all internal because you can't control anybody outside of you can just control you. And so I do feel like that that's the healthy part. It's what I want for my kids because I don't want them to deal with emotions like I was taught to deal with emotions. You and I are taught to be angry. I don't want that from them. So I don't think the dial back, this whole coding thing is to go back to the previous, but to do something different that's healthier.

C (13:47)

Yeah. In preparation for this episode, I was just doing some research on coddling and I came across a political cartoon. And I don't remember how old it was, but it's got to be within the last 15 years or so because it was two pictures on the same cartoon. It was a parent or two sets of parents. And the first set was labeled 1960. And they were looking at their child who's holding up a report card and had an F on it. And the parents were yelling at the child. There's no, like words. It's just they're yelling. And then on the next side of the cartoon was 2010. The kid's still holding the F report card. The parents are there, but they're yelling at the teacher. What's up with these grades? So in the first one was, what's up with the grade, kid? And then 40 years later, 50 years later, what's up with these grades, teacher? And I thought, that is a perfect way to look at coddling. I think in a way, when we coddle our kids, we kind of remove responsibility in some way. We remove the ability to fail. When you do everything for your kid or when you remove all of the possible snares in their way, it's not to their benefit. And I don't think that's really going to ever lead to them flourishing. I want my kids to thrive. And if I want that for them, then I feel like it's my responsibility, a dad. To not coddle them, to not make life so smooth that there's nothing you could ever stumble upon. I don't want him to stumble and get hurt. But I also understand that's just part of life. You're gonna have to figure that out. And so my fear is that I'm actually doing it without realizing it. And so I think it's good to talk about that in this particular episode to see. Are you coddling your kid because you might be and you don't think you are?

B (15:20)

Well, that's. I think what you're kind of saying is, are we working to prepare our kid, or are we trying to change the world so that they can remain the same and operate safely within it, but the best way that we can have them operate in that world is to get them ready?

C (15:39)

Yeah. And I kind of think of it this way. When you were talking earlier about the Dead poet movie, I was thinking, okay, let's just picture the scenario where the waters are rough out there. Am I going to teach my kid how to tread water, or am I just looking for someone to throw them a life vest? Like, it'd be great if we had life vests for everybody. But while we're waiting for the life vest, we should probably know how to tread some water here. And so that's. I think, what I'm trying to do with my kids. I'm gonna teach you how to tread water. And if a life vest comes along, awesome. That's great. But I don't want to just instinctively say, you don't need to learn how to tread water. Here's your way out. And I think that's maybe a simplistic way of looking at it, but that's what came to my mind when you were describing this movie situation. I think coddling is, here's your life vest, kid. And a good mix of the two is probably what we should be shooting for.

A (16:22)

We're talking a lot about coddling, and I don't think we've defined it really well. And so what does that look like today for today's dads? I think structuring all their schedules, like, having everything planned out. We talked about an episode about letting kids have free time so they can learn to process and learn to think on their own and do decisions, you know, bj, you talked about being out with your friends and being with other kids. That's where that process starts to happen. I think when we over schedule our kids, we're taking away opportunities for them to learn to regulate themselves, to problem solve and just to make decisions.

C (17:00)

I think another way we coddle kids is overprotection. You know, it's tough to watch kids struggle. Nobody, like I said earlier, we don't want our kids to fall down, get hurt and all that, but I do think we need to remove all the overprotection that we kind of do in an instinctive way. I was talking to a buddy who, his son turned 13 and he decided he wanted to learn how to scuba dive. And so I was talking to him this week. I was like, you guys went out together. Was that pretty cool? And he goes, yeah, but it was tough, man, because once you guys get down there, like, you're not sharing a regulator. It's. He's over there and he's got to rely on all the stuff we trained him to. I can't do it for him. And I was like, well, that's probably a really good thing. And he, he agreed. My buddy's like, yeah, I think this is great for my kid. Like, he's totally on his own. If something fails, I'm there to help him, but I'm not breathing for him. Them. I'm not kicking for him. And I think that was a really cool thing. Get over there, explore, get off in the ocean and have fun. But I'm not going to be able to protect you. And that's good.

B (17:51)

Yeah. And sometimes we just need to let our kids experience even some of the most painful things that. One of the most painful things I've ever walked through this past year is putting our dog down. And we gave our kids the option of whether or not they wanted to be there for the actual kind of moment. And I'm really glad that both of them decided to be there because it was difficult, but it kind of of it allowed them the experience to go through this very painful thing. Right up front and not separate themselves from it. And it gives them the experience of just processing something like that and feeling and, you know, going through it with somebody else. And. And so, yeah, when we. When we give them the opportunity, don't overprotect. Give them the opportunity to experience some of these things. It helps them mature in a good way.

A (18:42)

What sounds like their heart was to be with their dogs that they love so much. Like they had the internal strength to say, we're gonna go be there for him.

C (18:50)

Yeah, right.

A (18:51)

I think that's powerful. It says a lot about your kids, buddy.

B (18:54)

Yeah, exactly. I think another way that we coddle kids is we do things for them. You know, it's your. Your kid has a. Has a. A project do or something, and they're struggling with it, and we step in and it might even be we're gonna just help and then know or even just, all right, we gave them this chore, and now they're not doing it. And rather than making them do it or we step in and do it, or they have a difficult conversation to have and we have it for them. And when we do that, we just. We really rob them of the chance to. To mature and grow. We. We rob them the opportunity of experiencing things they're going to experience, and they're going to need to do them themselves at some point, so we might as well experience the pain of it.

A (19:47)

Now, you hit on this already, but I think we can jump in with schoolwork especially. We want to help them with their home work.

C (19:55)

Not me, man. I did algebra. I'm not doing that ever again.

A (19:57)

Oh, listen, this was one of the greatest part. We did not help our kids a lot with their homework. School was pretty easy for them, so we didn't need to. But one of my favorite times is when they would have, like. Like an art project to take in. I was prepared to just laugh my head off because we'd be dropping them off at elementary school and you'd see some dads in there, you know, you know their suits to go to the office. They wouldn't even let the kid take the project in. You know, it's like animals that, like, they could come to life made out of paper mache. And our kids are getting out with a horse that looks like it's been ran over by something. What's funny, though, is they never came home and went, oh, I feel so bad about my project. They thought they were crushing it, and Lord knows they weren't most of the time. But it's just this Freedom to let them, hey, go, go do your homework. You do your own thing. Because again, when we jump in there every time we're saying, hey, you can't do this, me, I think another way we can coddle is that when we're always overly involved with every relationship, we're stepping in. Let's, let's figure this out, or there's something going on with school or even work as they're getting older. You know, I think a powerful phrase we can say with our kids is, hey, what do you think you should do about this? What do you think about this? And it helps them to start to process in their own minds and doesn't mean we don't step in when we need to step in. Because when I think about the whole coddling thing, my mom really coddled me until I was 10. She passed away and my dad didn't coddle me at all. And so it went from over overly involved to not involved enough. And so I think there's this balance that we want to take, but I think the balance is stepping in and helping them to think on their own.

C (21:37)

Let me ask you this. I'd be curious to get your opinion because I have a teenager and we let her have a cell phone when she got to a certain age, but we told her like, like we can read whatever we want whenever we want to. Is that being too overly involved is that. I don't think that's coddling, but I'll take your opinion on it. Is that being too involved?

A (21:54)

I think in the beginning I would give that a thumbs up, but I think eventually, when before they go off to college, whatever, you're not going to be checking their tech. So I think you move toward trust in the beginning. You're like, I'm going to guard this, but I move toward trust with the kids. They finally go, and they do need a sense of processing and being on their own.

B (22:14)

Yeah, phones can be so damaging. There's so much on there. So I think it's always best to start with the screws tight on that and then gradually loosen them up as. As you go.

A (22:23)

It's a good way to say it.

B (22:24)

So what do we do instead? I mean, we kind of listed all these things, so I think the best way and is to advise them, but let them figure this stuff out. You know, if you think about being a parent and walking alongside them and giving them advice and guidance, but letting them out and experience and do these things on their own, I love the illustration of, and I think I might have mentioned it in another podcast. But I love the.

C (22:54)

The.

B (22:54)

The turtle in Finding Nemo. That dad, when the little turtle, his little son gets zipped out of the, you know, the flow of water and gets separated and immediately the clownfish, I forget his name is. Is Marlin. Marlon is like, oh, we need to go. You know, he's flipping out.

C (23:16)

Who is a very coddling dad.

B (23:17)

Very coddling dad. Extremely and understandably. Like his wife and all 99 kids were all, you know, like, I. I understand it. Like, it makes sense. It makes sense to all of us. We don't want to see our kids go through pain, but we gotta back off. And, you know, and I love that he just kind of says, hold on, let's just see what little. The little guy does. Let's see how he responds. And then you see the. That it took that. That he. That he had from. Did you see what I did, Dad? I got, you know, out and then I got back in and. And so, yeah, advise. Be there to guide, but let them do it.

A (23:54)

In other words, if they can do it, let them. And they can probably do more than we think that they could.

C (24:00)

Yeah. I think we need to introduce more free play with kids. Like I said earlier, let them be bored. My kids come up to me all the time like, dad, I'm bored. Like, great, good. I'm very happy about that. Go figure it out. Use your brain. Use your imagination. I read an article the other day, I think it was the Institute for Family Studies had an article about how playgrounds are being used less and less at schools because they're considered unsafe. Don't go on top of the monkey bars. You might fall. Okay, yeah, you're right. But people fell for generations and they're fine. You can't go on the merry go round. You might slip off. Like, okay, use the playground.

A (24:35)

It.

C (24:36)

Why even have it if you don't let the kids use it? I thought that was interesting. Free play. Let them go out and explore and do stuff.

B (24:42)

Both times that my kids got stitches, I high five them nice and took. I was like, well done. Good job.

C (24:48)

Scars are stories.

B (24:49)

Good job. Yeah. I mean, if you're out there getting. If you should be out there getting a little bit hurt. Yeah. I think encouraging them to step out of their comfort zones. Step. Stepping out where it's painful, where it's difficult. Again, letting them do things on their own. One of the most uncomfortable things that I remember about my childhood. I had ordered a Flyers jersey and was having a name and a number put on it. And so I had to go to the store to pick it up. And I went with my mom, and she just kind of said, it's your jersey. You go talk to them about it, about if it's in and when it's in. And I went up, up to the counter, and a guy stepped in front of me and. And he went. And then he got done with him. And the guy behind the counter said, who's next? And another adult said, who was after me, by the way, said, jumped in. Jumped in. And I just walked back to my mom, and I'm like, I. She goes, you are. You need to speak up for yourself. She said, you need to firmly say, I'm next. And I could sense the guy behind the counter was kind of blowing me off because I was standing there. And she said, you're a customer of this store. You've spent money in here. They owe you respect. You need to step up and say something. And so I went back, and the very next. He's like, who's next? I said, I'm next. I said, I ordered a jersey, and I want to see if it's completed, and if it's not, when is it going to be completed? And I walked away from that. And, you know, there were things I could have done better. There were things, you know, but it was the first time that I was stepping into that. And we have to have our kids step into these things, and they're not going to do it right. They're going to do it wrong. It's going to be awkward, it's going to be difficult. But that's. We need to tell them, like, yeah, it's your first time doing it. You're just going to get better from now on.

A (26:49)

She coached you up, I think, is what we're talking about, like, coach them up and then send them out. I think we're just talking about, give them responsibility, hold them accountable, right? Because when they contribute, it builds confidence. You know, this is going to sound silly, but when our kids were little, we started this little song, you know, Clean up, clean up Everybody do your share Clean up, clean up Everybody clean up so still to this day, what that communicates is, hey, we're all contributing. We're all going to be a part. Everybody can do something, regardless of what stage and what age. But, you know, bj, I just love what your mom did, and I think that's what we're talking about. We're not saying, stop, step back and let them figure out everything we're saying. Step in and then release them. Through on their own. So here's.

B (27:34)

Here's the temptation with that. It took longer. Like, it took. My mom had to wait longer.

C (27:41)

Right.

B (27:41)

It would have been a lot quicker had she walked up there and done it for me.

A (27:45)

Great point.

B (27:46)

Because she had to wait for me to fail to, you know, not speak up. She had to. I had to come back to her. She had to wait again. It took longer. It's very tempting for us to go. I don't have the time. Let's just go and do it.

A (27:58)

It. It's a great point. Well, we've talked a lot about coddling and what that looks like. Let's make it super practical for guys by doing our pro move of the week, which is to give your child one responsibility of something that you're doing already that you know that they can do and let them fail or succeed, but coach them up, send them off.

C (28:21)

I don't have to change the oil this week. That's great.

A (28:23)

That's great.

C (28:24)

Yeah. Get out there, kid.

A (28:27)

This is good. Thank you, guys. And we want to say thank you. And hey, if this has been helpful for you, can you send this podcast out to your friends? It helps other people to find the podcast, and we think that it will help other dads. But most of all, we want to say thank you for joining us. Thank you for listening. We know that you and your kids will be glad that you did.

B (28:50)

Thanks again for listening to the All Pro dad podcast podcast. Behind every episode is our amazing team producer, Haley Moat, audio and video editor Buck Buchanan, and production coordinator Corey Wolf. Allprodad is the fatherhood program of the nonprofit Family first, along with our motherhood program, imom. We exist to help you love your family well. So remember, if you have more questions than answers, then you're probably in the right place. See you next time.