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- [00:01]
A
Hey, welcome to the All Pro dad podcast. I'm Ted Lowe, and every dad has been there. You push, your kid pushes back, you tighten your grip, they slip right through your fingers. Today we're talking about why control backfires and what actually works long term. Let's get into it, you guys. I can remember when our son, our first son was. I think he was about 2, and he just was the pickiest eater. And so you guys, I don't know if you've been there, done that, but we wanted him to eat healthy the whole bit. And so we asked the pediatrician, you know, what, what do we do? And he goes, feed him the right things. And when he gets hungry, he'll eat. And I was like, that is some good logic. And we locked in. So my wife fixes something healthy. You know, one night for dinner, he's like, not gonna happen again. 18 months, 2 years old, next morning, gets the same food out for breakfast. Not a chance. And I mean, there were no tears. There was just total defiance. Which now that he's 26, I'm like, that was on Brand, you know, Little did I know. And lunch, he won't go. And I'm, I'm starting to like, I don't like this game anymore. Dinner, still no go. And we finally looked at each other, went like, forget it, you win. And the reason I bring bring that up, it was one of those defining moments that I had. And I'll look back when we talk about, on this episode about being controlling is you can't make a kid really do anything. You can force obedience, but at the end of the day, they are going to make their choices. I can't make a child eat that doesn't want to eat. You know, when we think about controlling our kids behavior, that can be so frustrating because everything in us as a dad says, oh, yes, I can, right? I can make you do exactly what I want you to do.
- [02:07]
B
I felt the same way. So one of the things that was really important in my upbringing was that. And one of the things my dad always said is that a gentleman's always a gentleman. So teaching manners to my kids, particularly my son, about what he's supposed to do is important. And so I would always tell him, hey, go get the door for. I mean, I started young, like, go get the door for your mom and your sister. Boom. He didn't get it. He opened it for himself, went inside, hey, let your mom and your sister go first. Boom. He ran in. He's the first one in, like, over and over and over again. Hey, go get the car door for your mom. Bam. Jumps in the car. You know, where like, always has to be first always. And finally I just was like, I let go. I was just so tired. Where I finally got to a place where I was like, all right, he's going to make whatever decision he wants to be about who he is, and that's it. But I'm just going to continue to be this, and I'm going to at least model it. And eventually he came around, you know, he started doing. And now he like. It shocked me when he started doing it, but it was one of those things. I'm like, boy, I am really trying to drive this home. And it's going nowhere. And it was just frustration after frustration.
- [03:25]
C
Yeah, I got a similar story to you, Ted. I've got a seven, almost seven year old who I don't think has eaten a single piece of fruit in her life. It drives me insane. Do you know how good pineapple is? Kidding. Eat it. Oranges, strawberries, you're gonna love all this stuff. And she's like, nope, I will not do it.
- [03:43]
B
She's never even tried it.
- [03:45]
C
No, she just won't eat it. I'm like, you are missing out on all the good things in life. Grapes, there's all sorts of cool stuff out there. Eat the fruit. No, she won't do it. And it drives me nuts. And I want to control. I want to be like, no, listen, this is good for you. I know what's better. Eat it. Right? But I have found that I'm leaning a little bit too much into the control element. And she eats other things. It's not like she doesn't eat at all. But I want her to eat the fruit because I know is good for you. And I found that instead of parenting, I'm actually trying to just white knuckle this kid's menu choices. And. And it's just not going to work. It's the difference between guiding and gripping. You know, I think that when you're like, gripping on so hard to get your way as a dad, you're not really guiding them into good choices. And maybe you're guiding them away from what might be a really good relationship that you're building. So controlling. Even though sometimes we call it parenting, is really not a great strategy.
- [04:40]
B
I mean, I don't know about you guys. I think the hard thing for me is, like, when I saw disobedience, I felt like it needed to be, like, squashed immediately. And I'm like, okay, I need to get my kids to a good place. I need to get them past this, and I need to teach them, I need to train them. I need to do all these things. But there's a fine line between teaching training and disciplining and control. I think when it becomes control is when we start using intimidation, which I think that's. That was one thing. Like, it's okay, I'm going to stop this behavior right now. Okay? That's kind of where it gets controlling, where you start weaponizing guilt, you start keeping shame on them. All of those are these control tactics. And look, I've crossed both of them. It's hard. It feels like good parenting in the moment because you're like, okay, bad behavior going on. I stop bad behavior.
- [05:40]
D
Efficient.
- [05:41]
B
And it feels like you're being proactive. It feels like you're stepping into it. It doesn't feel like you're passive. But I think ultimately, I think a lot of times what we're looking for is we're looking for a sense of security, you know, because disobedience feels very insecure. Oh, yeah, Disobedience. Bad behavior feels like, oh, they could go to a life of irresponsibility. And what does this look like at 16? Oh, what is it going to look like at dirty? Like they're going to be undisciplined and they're going to be entitled and all these things. And I need to end that right, right, right now. And so it feels like good parenting. It feels like you're not being passive, but ultimately, you know, it's. I think it's number one. It hurts your credibility. It hurts your relationship. And I think it's, you know, I think it was Princess Leia kind of talked about, you know, in the first the Star Wars A New Hope, where she was like, the tight you. The tighter you try to fit your. The more star systems are going to slip through your fingers. The more we try to control, the more resentment builds and the more they're going to go the opposite.
- [06:52]
C
I did not see a Princess Leia reference come. That was good. Nice job.
- [06:56]
A
You tied it right in.
- [06:58]
C
Yeah. Way to go.
- [06:58]
A
I like that. I think when dads can feel anxious, they move towards withdrawal or control, depending on your personality. In fact, Dan Siegel has a great quote. He says, when we get overwhelmed as parents, we either move toward control or. Or we disengage. What about you guys? I move toward control because I grew up with. My kids were growing up, the big motto was first time obedience. First time obedience. Bj you might have heard that. And boy, I, I, I was on that. And so when I feel anxious, I'm about to fix this situation, you know, especially when they're smaller, because you're bigger, you're bigger, you're scarier. You can. Right? Yeah.
- [07:40]
B
I mean, he, my son. Okay. So a little while back, my son came and observed our podcast.
- [07:46]
C
Yeah.
- [07:47]
B
And he talked about how when he. You can hear in the house when I get angry, when I get upset about something. When I get angry about something. And he would hide, he'd go jump in the shower because he knew I wouldn't go searching for him in the shower. He knew I was looking for a kid, so he was putting my daughter out there. And he's like, if I jump in the shower, then maybe he has a chance to cool off. But, yeah, it's like, okay, this is wrong. I'm gonna fix it now I'm upset. I get intense. Yeah. I go right to the, I go right to the intense control, and I'm gonna out intense them.
- [08:23]
C
I've caught myself con trying to control my kids and calling it parenting when we're at church, because after church ends on Sundays, we got a big room, and a lot of the little kids like to run around. They, they have friends there and they want to play and they want to, you know, do tag or whatever. And I am so concerned they're going to break some old lady's hip. Like, they're going to run an old lady over. And that's a legitimate thing. Like, I don't want anyone to get hurt. And so I'm like, you sit right here in this chair. We're not going to knock over granny today like that sort of stuff. But what are the odds of them actually knocking granny? Are probably not great. You know, they're over off to the side. But I still try to control it. And I think part of it is I don't want to be embarrassed. I don't want it to be a reflection on me as I'm not in control of my kid.
- [09:06]
D
Right.
- [09:07]
C
My kids running around and probably not hurting anyone. But what if that would make me look bad and if they ran granny over? So I think sometimes when that happens, we step in harder than maybe we normally would, just to kind of save face for us. We get loud, and maybe we get a little quicker to react. And, you know, I'm, I'm sure I'm speaking for a lot of dads in that respect, but that's, I think, the difference between I'm parenting my kid and I'm now performing. I'm performing for other people. You know, we, we parent our children, but we perform for peers. We perform for others. And I sometimes controlling because I'm really performing and I don't want other parents to think I'm a bad dad.
- [09:42]
A
You know, we did the whole episode on how not to parent for others. We'll put that in the show notes. It's been one of our most popular episodes. And I think it's because we can relate to what you just said. We don't like to admit that, but I don't want to look bad in front of people at church or wherever.
- [09:58]
C
Sure.
- [09:58]
A
So thank you for sharing that because I think it's, it's accurate for a lot of us.
- [10:01]
B
Well, I think that's what, I mean, look, if we're going to call it what it is, let's call it what, what's underneath all of this stuff. It's fear. It's. We're fear of the way that people are going to perce us. We're afraid of maybe how our kids are going to turn out. We're afraid that we're going to lose credibility, all of those things. And it just makes us, we're looking for certainty. We're looking for, you know, to put our grip on it, to make sure that we're in control. And that's the thing, that's the thing with kids is you can influence, but you cannot control. Like, it's just, I, I, look, I've, I've seen a lot of great parenting. Like, I was fortunate enough to watch a lot of families that are fantastic and, and parents who are as great as you can possibly be. And there is drug addiction. There are laws that were, you know, they have kids that I, they have kids that are criminals. As parents, we are called to love and nurture and, and invest and pour into them. Yes. All of those things we want, we want to, we want to impart value to them, but you just can't control who they eventually become. It's, it's, it's not that kind of pressure we don't need as parents.
- [11:17]
A
No. Well, you're talking, talking about like what's really under this is fear. And I think that's a question for all of us to say, hey, when you start to feel controlling, like, what's underneath that? Like, what's your trigger? For me, it was when I didn't feel appreciated. Like, nothing would push my button more than that. After all I do for you, and then you do XYZ and So then I'm not responding, you know, to the situation. I'm responding to what triggered me, which has got to be so confusing for a kid. So I think that's an important thing. As dad, the next time you feel, you know, like I want to control the situation, ask yourself, whoa, whoa. What just triggered that? What's underneath that? Then you kind of know what you're dealing with.
- [12:06]
B
Oh, boy. There's nothing that will get you respect. Like demanding it.
- [12:10]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [12:12]
B
Like, who?
- [12:13]
C
Who?
- [12:13]
B
Like, how would that ever work?
- [12:16]
A
But, boy, we keep trying.
- [12:17]
B
Of course. Yeah, I'm going to demand respect, and then they're going to respect me.
- [12:21]
C
So, bj, I think I. What I'm hearing you say is we got to shift our mindset a little bit as dad. Shift away from the. I'm gonna make you into what I want you into. Recognizing that you can't make them be kind. You can't make them absolutely do perfectly every single thing that you're wanting them to do. You can't make them respect you, but you can influence them, but maybe not exactly control them. Hitting every single button just the right way.
- [12:45]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a. Look. Ultimately, kids need training. They need guidance. Kids need boundaries, and when they cross those boundaries, they need consequences. They need to know where the boundaries are. They need clear teaching. They need all of these things. What they don't need is your intimidation. They don't need your shaming. They don't need you withholding affection because you haven't hit the mark. Like, all of those. That's what turns into control manipulation. And all of those things, they work in the short term. And that's the problem is a lot of dads are like, well, this is effective. It's working. But really, in the long run, you're losing them. You think you're gaining them, and you think you're gaining something good, but ultimately, you're losing them.
- [13:38]
C
So your house looks and sounds like you want it to look in the moment, but down the road, they're like, I don't want anything to do with this tyrant. He's just demanding so much of me.
- [13:46]
B
Right.
- [13:47]
C
Okay.
- [13:47]
B
Right. And ultimately. Okay, so for some kids, it's gonna create resistance. You push, they push back. Kind of like magnets that are kind of the same thing. Like, you're just. Again, you think you're getting closer, but really you're losing them. They're moving away from you. The other one, it can create an unhealthy dependence upon you where they are relying on you. To tell them everything to do, they become reliant on your control. So your kids are either going to rebel against your control or they're going to become dependent upon it. And neither one takes your kid in the right direction.
- [14:23]
A
I think what we're saying is influence is more important than force. Right? And force works in the moment, but influence works over time. And that's always an easy thing. And one of the ways I think we influence our kids in a healthy way is again, to know your triggers. One of my triggers, like I mentioned earlier, was not feeling appreciated. The other, with my kids not being respectful to adults. We would be at family get togethers, whatever, and they would jump in grandpa's chair or grandma's chair. And then I just grew up. I don't know how this, to me, you just stood up. Like, I don't remember being taught that. I just remember you'd do that. And nothing would set me on fire more than my kids doing that. It still does. It still can drive me crazy. But it, you know, knowing your triggers, like what's going on during that. Can we have a conversation when I'm not triggered about this instead of trying to deal with it in the middle of it?
- [15:24]
B
I, I mean, you know, kind of like Bobby was saying, like, I was always, my trigger was always my kids acting out in public and kind of how everybody was responding. I've told a story before about my kid flipping out on a plane one time and, and people giving us dirty looks and it was just the worst.
- [15:42]
A
And, and we got to put that in the episode because that's a good one. There's. Yeah, the poop story.
- [15:46]
B
Well, yeah, I mean, it was, it's a class. I'm still scarred by it. But I, I, not long after that, I mean, I, I want to say like six months after that, I was flying again. And I was, it was just me and my son, and my son was like 3 years old. And we get onto a plane and I, I asked the, the flight attendant, I was like, we're the last two on. And I was like, I have a three year old here. We have to sit together. And this one wonderful woman in the front row said, I'll, I'll move back and they can sit here. And I sit down and I'm trying to get him ready. And the voice of this very sweet woman said, do you need help? Do you want me to help out with anything? And I said, sure. And I, I turned and it was this woman, Gail Sarence, who is the, the lead anchor on The NBC News in Tampa. And. And I had recognized her because someone said she was involved in young life, which. And so I was like. I was like, oh, are you. You know Gail? And she was like, yeah, you know, and I'm like, you know, young life. And she like, oh. And I'm like, and I recognize you from television. But. But she proceeded to play with my son for two hours on the flight. And then we started to land and my son started screaming again. And I was just kind of like. And she could see my face, and she looked at me and she goes, we're all right. He's all right. Everybody on this plane is okay. Like, they're fine. Nobody's going to die from loud noises. And she talked me the entire way down so good. You know, it's. It's not like my son needed it. Like I needed it. I was just so filled with anxiety. Too much anxiety about the. About something dumb, you know, that I just needed to let go of some of that stuff. But I. I very much wanted to jump in and be like, you stop screaming. You stop screaming right now. Like. And so, you know, and isn't it crazy?
- [17:35]
A
Like, you will never see another person on that plane again? No. And this is your kid. And we've all done it, right? Going, why am I performing? To please, you know, good job, news anchor lady.
- [17:48]
B
Oh, one of the sweetest women on the planet. That's.
- [17:51]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You talk about screaming on a plane. I. I get a little triggered when my kids cry over what I perceive to be not a big deal. And what's not a big deal to me is totally different than. What is it?
- [18:03]
A
So many big deals to you, Bobby.
- [18:05]
B
That's true.
- [18:06]
C
My kid was, you know, I was gonna sell like some off the wall story, but, like, everything is a big deal to these kids all the time. And I'm like, you, you don't need to scream and cry over so. And so coming and stealing your crayon. Like, there's a whole box of crayons. Grab another crayon, you know, and. But I get triggered by that, or I used to. And I've started to get a little better at it because, you know, I'm not making the situation any better by just coming down on my kid and saying, will you just stop feeling a normal feeling? You know, it's just such a weird thing. So getting mad over, like, like little things is not a big deal. And I also noticed, you know, with, with me, if we're trying to be dads who are less Controlling. We've got to be more realistic in our approach with our kids. We, we fight all the time with our kids about cleaning their room. And the other day I was yelling about cleaning the room with our, our six year old and I was like, don't you know how to, like, get the drawers right? And I'm like, did I ever teach you how to put the drawers correctly? Like, I don't know that I ever actually did. I just kind of assumed they should know how to put clothes in the drawer. And I was like, man, this is my fault. This is on me. It's not on you to know exactly how to do things. You're not in my brain. You don't know how dad wants it to look. And so I, I've tried to have a more realistic approach to parenting and not expect more out of them than they really should be doing at certain ages. That's going to give you a lot more peace as a dad when you look through, you know, a realistic view of, of your family.
- [19:30]
B
I think one of the ways that we can kind of work on this is to give our kids choices. Like, hey, you can either do this or you could do this. It's one or the other. And it gives them a sense of.
- [19:44]
A
So choices versus control.
- [19:45]
B
Yeah, choices versus control. It's okay, you can go this way or you can go this way. And instead of raising our voice, let's work on lowering it. Even if it's when you start to feel your volume going up, it's just taking a minute, take a minute to just breathe. Hey, timeout, you know, take a minute to compose yourself. I know that's hard. I know it's difficult in the moment, but do what you can to do that and just kind of. And lay out the consequences clearly for them. Like, I think that's a lot of times we don't do that. We don't kind of say, hey, listen, this is wrong, this is why. And here's the consequence if this happens. Lay it out. Lay it out clearly. And then more important than anything, follow through. Like when they, if they actually do something, then you follow through and it just reinforces the boundary.
- [20:34]
A
BJ I love this, giving them choices because if you can't control and you can't, I mean, you can for the moment, but we don't want that. Here's a choice. You, you can continue to scream at your sister, you can choose to do that, but here's the bummer. You're not going to get to go swimming this afternoon, whatever it is. Here's some choices for you. I just think that's that. I like that, bj. I think we could just stop the episode. So today we want to say thank you. No. Another thing we can do is just to model the behavior that we're wanting. Right. And we say this every time that it's, you know, caught more than it's taught. I don't know about you guys. Have you ever yelled at your kids for yelling?
- [21:18]
B
Yeah, stop yelling.
- [21:20]
A
You guys are too loud. You're like going, yeah, spank them for
- [21:24]
B
hitting all those things.
- [21:26]
A
You're going, yeah, that's not gonna. But they're gonna repeat what they see. Yeah.
- [21:32]
C
I think another action step for dads, we're trying to figure out how to be less controlling. And this is maybe a hard one, but I think a great action step for us is just to slow down. Just slow down, man. We make mistakes when we go fast. We say stuff we don't mean to say. We react in ways that we normally wouldn't react, but we're just in the moment so fired up. Slow down, take a pause, back up a little bit. Let your brain catch up. I mean, half the time I say things, my brain's way over here and my mouth is already ripping over over here. It's just, it's not going to lead to a connection with your kids. And when you're going fast, you're trying to control. When you slow down, you take a step back, you survey, and you kind of see what the right method of operation is. And that's where you win as a
- [22:12]
A
dad, I think too, choosing your battles, the fewer things you feel the need to control or have to control, you know, you've taken yourself out of the game. With our kids rooms, we just said, you know what, at the end of the day, if they want to live in a room that smells like a Burger King dumpster, then you just, you do that. And so we just let that go. We talk. They just don't want this to be a battle because it was an everyday thing. We're going, okay, this is causing more harm in our relationship. It's becoming this tone that just doesn't work. So choose your battles. And when we stop controlling, you know, so much, we're not losing control as much as we are building responsibility in them on the things that are really important. Right.
- [23:05]
C
I agree. For sure.
- [23:06]
A
Well, that leads us to our pro move of the week, and that's this. Catch yourself once this week trying to control something and instead give a choice. Catch yourself doing something you're trying to control and instead give a choice. Well, thanks again to BJ and Bobby for joining me for this conversation. If you didn't know already, we're on YouTube, so you can not only hear us, you can watch us. Thank you for listening. We know that you and your kids will be glad that you did.
- [23:36]
D
Thanks again for listening to the All Pro Dad Podcast. Behind every episode is our amazing team producer, Haley Mwat, audio and video editor Buck Buchanan, and production coordinator Corey Wolf. AllProdad is the fatherhood program of the nonprofit Family first, along with our motherhood program, IMOM. We exist to help you love your family well. So remember, if you have more questions than answers, then you're probably in the right place. See you next time.