What’s Really Going On When Our Kids Care About Popularity?

Summary

All Pro Dad Podcast: "What’s Really Going On When Our Kids Care About Popularity?"

April 20, 2026
Host: Ted Lowe
Guests: BJ Farce and Bobby Lewis

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ted Lowe and co-hosts BJ Farce and Bobby Lewis dive into the complicated world of popularity for kids. They explore not just what it means to want to be popular, but why that desire is rooted in much deeper needs for safety, belonging, and acceptance. The conversation is candid, humorous, and full of practical advice for dads who want to comfort their kids without resorting to quick-fixes or minimizing the real pain of social challenges.
If you’ve ever wondered how to support your child when they struggle with fitting in—or want to protect them from social pain—this episode is packed with insights and actionable steps.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Stories: The Quest for Popularity

• The Hosts on Their Own Youth:
  • BJ talks about adapting his style to fit in: “I had, like, the silver chain that everybody liked to wear. I bleached my hair, which was super cool.” (01:25)
  • Bobby shares about trying on different personas to be part of the crowd: “I would drive into school blasting rap… in my Chrysler Town and Country station wagon… I was such a dork.” (03:24)
  • Ted reflects on growing up in a small town and the anxiety of keeping up appearances: “I was always kind of nervous about, you know, am I doing the things that keep you this way?... It kept me pretty much anxious.” (04:18)
• Why the Topic Matters:
  Bobby brings the subject forward, prompted by seeing his daughters grapple with popularity and researching why it matters so much for kids.

2. Core Insight: Popularity Is About Safety and Belonging

• Beyond Being Liked:
  “This isn’t really about being liked. This is about them feeling safe and like, they belong.” – Ted Lowe (00:57)
• Social Safety:
  “If you don’t stick out, okay, you must be okay. Right?... Popularity feels like it’s protection from being rejected by the group.” – Bobby Lewis (05:23)
• Internal Conflict in Kids:
  • BJ describes the daily struggle: “A kid is looking… ‘Do I belong? Do I have value?’… If they’re not feeling it…they’re more likely to go, ‘Okay, what do I need to do to appease this group of people so I can feel secure in myself?’” (06:42)

3. Challenges Modern Kids Face

• Social Media Intensifies Exclusion:
  “Now kid feels left out. They flip open Snapchat, Instagram…they can see in real time that they’re being left out.” – Bobby (11:51)
  • The pain of exclusion is amplified when it's visible and documented online in real time.
• Categories of Kids Affected by Popularity:
  • The child who feels left out (10:41)
  • The popular but anxious child (13:10)
  • The child who claims not to care (but usually does) (13:39)

4. Parenting Reactions: What Helps and What Hurts

• The Urge to 'Fix' and Minimize:
  “So what we do is…we minimize what they’re going through…Rather than sitting with them…Like, ‘Gosh, I’m really sorry you’re getting those messages, that must have been hard to hear.’” – BJ (09:29)
• Why Comfort Comes Before Solutions:
  “When we rush to fix it, we’re saying to them, your need to want to belong is not valid. Comfort for them doesn’t start with fixing it. It starts with seeing it and them knowing you can see it.” – Ted (16:34)

5. Practical Framework: A New Way to Respond

• See-Steady-Shape
  1. See – Acknowledge your child's pain without jumping in to correct.
  2. Steady – Model calmness; be a steady presence while they process.
  3. Shape – Help them gradually shift their perspective, over time and through repeated conversations. (17:20)
• “Just being safe.”:
  Ted and the team stress the critical need for home to be a safe place: “We just always want to be that safe, strong place that they come home to.” (22:01)

6. Action Steps for Dads

• Change Your First Response:
  “Instead of trying to fix it, let’s just stop and ask questions and try to understand what they’re going through…Sit with them, be with them in it, try to get them to name it.” – BJ (19:10)
• Shift the Goal from Popularity to Belonging:
  “The goal is not to just be the most liked person ever... The goal is to feel like you belong and to have security. That could happen with a very small group of people.” – Bobby (20:32)
• Reinforce Unconditional Love and Value:
  “Remind your kids that they don’t have to perform or do anything to be loved.” – Bobby (21:08)
• Faith and Family as Core Anchor:
  “Their security is going to come from knowing that they are wonderfully made…they belong to this family that you’re a part of. And so…being grateful for all the things that God has made…that ultimately brings security.” – BJ (21:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you love us, you’ll give us photos, and we'll put those in the show notes.” – Ted (light-hearted moment about embarrassing youth photos) (01:57)
• “Of course you care. Just like the movie…in some ways, I would put my three oldest kids in this category.” – Ted (14:22)
• “Your kid will not remember every lunchroom table… But they will remember that you were safe to talk to about what was going on…” – Ted (22:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – Episode introduction and framing the big question
• 01:25 – Hosts share personal stories of striving for popularity
• 05:23 – Why popularity feels like safety for kids
• 06:42 – The psychological undercurrent: security, value, and belonging
• 11:51 – The impact of social media on exclusion
• 13:39 – The “I don’t care” kid and how they still care
• 16:34 – Comfort over fixing: acknowledging vs. minimizing
• 17:20 – “See-Steady-Shape” response framework
• 19:10 – Action steps: Respond, don’t fix; shift the goal; reinforce value
• 21:19 – Faith/family as a source of true belonging
• 22:42 – “Pro move of the week”: Ask your child what it means to be popular

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Conclusion

This episode offers heartfelt, nuanced, and practical advice for dads facing the thorny issue of popularity with their children. By blending personal vulnerability, humor, and wisdom, Ted, BJ, and Bobby give listeners not just a peek into their own journeys, but clear steps for fostering a sense of safety and acceptance at home. Their central message: Kids don’t just want to be liked—they want to belong. And as dads, our strongest gift is to be the steady, safe place they come back to no matter what’s going on at school or online.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, welcome to the AllPro dad podcast. I'm Ted Lowe, and the big question we want to start off with today is this. How do we help our kids navigate the pressure to be popular without them losing who they are? In this episode, we talk about why popularity isn't really about being liked, but about belonging and feeling safe. The different ways kids experience social pressure, even the ones who say they don't care, and how dads can respond in ways that comfort first instead of rushing to fix. I'm joined by BJ Farce and Bobby Lewis, and we're digging into why this pressure hits kids so deeply and how our first response as dads can either steady them or shut them down. If you've ever wanted to protect your kid from social pain but weren't really sure how to do it or what to say in the moment, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it, guys. Here's our big question of the week. Are you ready?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

How do we help our kids navigate social pressures without losing who they are? And, you guys, this isn't about comforting our kid if they're not very popular. This is about helping every kid navigate, like, social pressure, because this isn't really about being liked. This is about them feeling safe and like, they belong. So what about you guys? What things did you do growing up to be popular? Did you do anything?

[B]

I don't know that I was, like, shooting to be, like, the most popular, but I always desired to be popular. I think a lot of kids do. I was in a lot of youth sports. I made a lot of friends there. I was in a youth group at church. Did, like, a youth choir thing. So as a kid, I was always fitting into a group, like, trying to find groups. But in middle school specifically, I remember, like, changing my clothes that, like, kind of fit in. Like, baggy jeans were a thing. So I got the baggy jeans. I had, like, the silver chain that everybody liked to wear. I bleached my hair, which was super cool, and I looked great.

[A]

If you love us, you'll give us photos, and we'll put those in the show notes.

[B]

I have them, and I will. I will show you. Yeah. Also, like, I remember listening to Jay Z on the bus with a bunch of other kids. I don't like this music, but you guys like it. So I guess we're listening to this. Mo money. Mo problems, man. Like, it's going to be great. And I was like, this isn't neat. Doesn't even feel authentic. But I was like, this is popular. So I'm doing it. You know?

[A]

That's funny. Love it. What about you?

[C]

I have many more problems with P. Diddy, but see, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

I didn't even know that's, that's what I'm saying. I was trying so hard to fit in. I was like, whatever. And you know, see, you listen to it on the bus.

[A]

I love it.

[C]

By the time that song came out, I was like 26 years.

[B]

I think this just exactly what we're talking, talking about. I don't know a darn thing about.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Jay Z or whoever. Oh, but dang, I had to listen to it in the background.

[C]

Life. That was a little bit more. Yeah, yeah. Three.

[B]

He was great.

[C]

Yeah. I don't like, for me, I, I mean, I think I, I tried to go to as many parties as I could or was invited to. I, I don't think I was invited to a lot. I played sports. I, I, I tried to dress well. Like, I would, I would wear stuff from Structure and Britches. I, I wore Drakkar Noir.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Cologne. I would wear, I would wear Z

[B]

Dab of it too, I'm sure. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

With a mock turtleneck. I'd wear that. I'd come.

[B]

Speaking of which, pictures. Do you want more?

[C]

Oh, I mean, I, I don't even know if I took a picture with that, but I could, I could try to find out. I could at least find you a picture of me with a mock turtleneck. I can put that in the show notes for sure. But I would drive into school blasting rap. Like, I listened to Public Enemy and EPMD and, and, and Ice Cube in my, in my, in my Chrysler Town and Country station wagon with, with Woodside paneling. I was such a dork. Like there was picturing it.

[B]

All right.

[C]

It was a study.

[B]

It's the complete package.

[C]

It was a study and uncool.

[A]

Oh, I don't know. The kid of the 80s. I think you were the probably the coolest BJ.

[C]

I definitely was not. I have plenty of, I have plenty of witnesses, I can tell you. Yeah, not so much.

[A]

No. You know, I grew up in a small town where everybody knew each other and so being popular, it communicated a lot of different things. Maybe I don't. At least that's how I feel now, knowing my own kids went to a bigger school. But yeah, I thought about popularity a lot. It was probably a 9 out of 10 in middle school and probably 8 out of 10 about being popular and what that, what that meant. I mean, you're Good enough. You were accepted and I was popular is the thing. But I was always kind of nervous about, you know, am I doing the things that keep you this way? And a lot of that involved peer pressure. And so for me, that started drinking at a pretty early age that, you know, making poor decisions, hanging around with other kids that were making poor decisions. And so I think that's why popularity had such a bent on me. And it kept me pretty much. Pretty much anxious. So, yeah, I'm glad that we're doing this episode. You know, Bobby, you're the one that brought this to the table that we need to talk about it. Like, what started your desire for us to do this?

[B]

Well, my daughters love the Wicked movie. And they're just singing this stupid popular over and over again. I'm like, oh, gosh. Popular again, this song. But, you know, that's kind of just jokingly, but really, like, I've seen it kind of butt up in my home like kids trying to be more like friends or fit in a little bit more. And it's kind of led me to some research. Some of the things that I discovered about popularity is it really feels like social safety. And that's why you blasted the Ice Cube music. And that's why I dyed my hair. Like, it feels like safety, because if you don't stick out, okay, you must be okay. Right? But another part of that is it's a way to not be embarrassed. Like, if you do stand out in some way, there's potential for you to, like, get picked on or whatever. So you gotta be in. You gotta look like everybody else, sound like everyone else. There's safety in popularity, but also it reduces the anxiety about where you stand. You know, if you have a group to be with or you have a bunch of friends, then maybe you're not so nervous about that sort of stuff. And lastly, popularity feels like it's protection from being rejected by the group. So if you kind of build this wall around yourself called popularity, you're not excluded as much. You don't feel as lonely. Usually you're not a target. And that's kind of what I came to.

[A]

Gosh. I think everything you're describing, spot on, spot on.

[C]

So I think what we're really saying is that when we think about popularity, the reason why it's so important to kids is because of this sense of security. Like, it's a tough world. I think one of the things that it ultimately speaks to is a kid is looking, do they're asking certain questions, do I belong? And Do I have value? Who am I? Do I have value? And they're looking to answer those questions. And if they have a good home life, okay, hopefully they're getting affirmed by their folks, hopefully they're getting affirmed by their parents that, yes, you are, you are all these good things, you're special, you're fun to be around, you're great, you got a great sense of humor, all these things. And then they go out into the public and they're kind of taking in whatever messages are being sent their way. And it's great if they receive the same affirmation that they got from their parents. But oftentimes what happens is that they're not. And then there's a rub because there's this conflict of, okay, my parents are saying this and I'm starting to believe that about myself, but now I'm not getting that same kind of reaction from other people. And therefore I feel less valuable or I feel. And they're looking for that security, they're looking for, okay, I belong and I belong and I have value. And if they're not feeling it from these other people, they're more likely to go, okay, well, maybe my parents are wrong about this or maybe they just are predisposed to think I'm great, but I'm really not. Therefore, what do I need to do to appease this group of people so that I can feel secure in myself? And unfortunately, I think a lot of kids will do stuff that's dangerous or maybe that's not them, or maybe kind of morally ambiguous or morally off to kind of fit in so that they feel valuable. There's a little bit of anxiety, a little bit of anguish and there's this inner conflict of I don't and really know what to trust here. And then also I'm starting to believe these folks because they, there's no skin in the game for them. Like, they just are looking at me and reacting to what they see. So therefore it's probably more honest. You know, my parents are probably just, they probably love me, but they're predisposed to do that. They're supposed to do that. Yeah, they're supposed to. This is what they're supposed to do. So therefore, you know, am I really. So they've got this anguish, this pain. They're feeling isolated, they're not feeling like they're apart. And they bring it to us as parents and it's hard for us. Like initially we just want this. Like, we want any kind of insecurity, any kind of self doubt to Go away.

[A]

Right?

[C]

And so what we do is we try to shove that off and we minimize what they're going through and we minimize the messages that were being. You don't need to listen to them. Well, they just don't really know you. Hey, you're the best. Rather than sitting with them and going, okay, tell me what you're asking them questions. Tell me what your thoughts are here. Like, sitting with them in it. Like, gosh, I'm really sorry that you're getting those messages. Like, that must have been really hard to hear. Or sometimes they're really angry about it, and you just need to let them vent and go off without stopping them. And, you know, sometimes they're really hurt, and we want to shut that down because we're uncomfortable with how much pain they're experiencing. So we really need to just take the long road here and sit with them, ask them questions, let them get it out, let them feel, maybe validate how they're feeling, maybe talk a little about times that we've been left out to give them a little bit of hope. Like, yeah, I've felt that way. And I've also gotten past it. Like, even just saying, like, you know, I went through something similar can really help.

[A]

And we want them to bring it to us. Right? And so we've got to respond in ways that make them want to bring it to us again. Right? So how are we responding and fixing it? Minimizing it is the way to go. Well, you don't understand because it feels so real to them, because it is so real to their world. I'm so glad we're talking about this, you guys, listeners, and, you know, even for us here, like, see if your kid fits in any of these categories. The first one is the kid who feels left out, the kid who feels left out. And sometimes that's very obvious. You can see a kid start to isolate, start to pull away. They're defensive. They don't want to be around kids. On the other end of that spectrum, needy kids. You know, you and I both worked in, you know, with youth and youth ministry, and you could see a kid that was really needy. And they would be really needy with kids. Kids would push away. Then they'd be needy with adults, and it was even difficult for adults to be around a needy kid. But is your kid feeling left out? And that's a painful place to be for a kid. Right.

[B]

And I think social media has made that harder. Oh, because, you know, rewind. 20 years ago, your kid felt left out on a Friday Night, they sat home, they read a book, they watched a movie, whatever. Now kid feels left out. They flip open Snapchat, Instagram, whatever, and they can see in real time that they're being left out. It's confirmed by all of their digital interactions. Oh, I didn't get invited to the party. Oh. Four of my friends went. And there's this person there. I don't even know that they like them. And they're there, but I'm not. So this really, you know, look how

[C]

much fun we're having.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything looks perfect online. And so that only makes it worse for a kid who, you know, just feels left out to begin with.

[A]

Absolutely. And I've been witness to when those moments happen.

[B]

Well, it's crushing.

[A]

It's absolutely it.

[B]

Or to find out after the fact the next day, like, the fun's already over, you know, and you totally missed out. You know, that stinks.

[A]

The real time stuff, watching your kid in real time go, I didn't get invited. Why not? Why didn't I get invited?

[B]

I thought we were friends, that sort of stuff.

[A]

They're all getting ready for prom, but they didn't invite me to come get ready for prom. And it is heartbreaking and it is devastating, and it is so real to them. It's dads. The other way that popularity can impact a kid, it's the kid who is popular. But they're anxious because they feel like they've got to maintain.

[B]

You know, you said that was kind of you, right?

[A]

Oh, absolutely. It was absolutely me. Because I always thought you're one wrong move away, one conversation away, one mistake away from not being popular. Because when you are popular, there were a lot of eyes on you, and I started to watch you had become popular even with teachers, and so the things you would do just got more visibility. And it was an anxious place to be, to be honest.

[B]

Yeah. I think the third thing to watch out for is the kid who doesn't care. Or at least they say they don't care. Right. They're still kind of learning what it means to be accepted, to find their way in the group. I promise you, they care. They say they don't care. That's just like a shield. If I just pretend that it doesn't bother me, well, then maybe for real, it won't bother me.

[C]

There's a movie called the Family Stone. It's a Christmas movie, and there's a. A woman who's trying to get in with this family. She's dating one of the guys, and there's a mean sister. And. And she goes, I don't know what I did to you, but I don't care whether you like me or not. And the sister goes, oh, of course you do.

[A]

Yeah. She wasn't wrong.

[C]

No, she wasn't wrong at all.

[B]

I think that's a dangerous spot to be. This particular kid that says they don't care because they're the ones that are probably the most likely to do things that don't fit their personality because it's. It really is important for them to fit in. Of course you care. Just like the movie, you know, in

[A]

some ways, I would put my three oldest kids in this category of. They would say they didn't care. They went to a huge high school, so there'd be different pods of kids. So you wanted to be popular within the pods. But my kids would always say, you know, that they're. That's what the popular kids do. The popular kids. It was like, you know, be like saying the football players do, the cheerleaders do, the theater kids do. It was the popular kids. And one day I said, you guys, that term a lot. What is. What does that mean? And they all pretty much described it the same. They said, it's people that are confident. Which I thought, how ironic. It's the kids that are confident. It's the kids that are attractive and they're somehow involved in football. And this was. This was our school in the area. And I said, gosh, you know, that just sounds different than what popularity was described when I was growing up. It was the kids that, that. That were kind to everybody and they were a lot of fun. And my oldest son says this. He goes, dad, you're saying that because you were popular. I guarantee the unpopular kids would say the same things that we just said.

[C]

Oh, wow. And I'm like, ouch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, he throws it right back to me. And I went, okay, all right, I get it.

[B]

You know, it's fun. I asked my kids about this in preparation for this topic. We were at dinner like two or three nights ago. We're sitting at the dining room table. I said, what does it mean to be popular? And all three of my kids are like, just means people like you, you know, that was their quick answer. That's what I thought. But then My youngest, my 6 year old, she kind of sat. She's very introspective. She sat back and she goes, but that maybe isn't the best thing, is it? And I was like, okay, now we're gonna get some good stuff. She Goes because then people could just type your name in Google and know everything about you. And I was like, oh, gosh, all right, six year old. So like popularity, even though kids say they don't want it, they do want it. And then once they get it, are they pleased? You know, maybe they're not, you know, maybe they're chasing something they think they want. But, you know, contentment's probably a good place to be for, you know.

[A]

But one of the things I think in this whole dynamic with kids in popularity is as dads, we want to fix it. Like, we want to fix it when they're feeling insecure, when they go, I don't want to go here, or I didn't get invited here, or you see that devastation on your daughter's face when she wasn't included. You want to say, hey, listen, sweetheart, one of these days it's, you're not. This is going to matter to you. You're going to look back and this is not important, man. We want to fix it and that comes a good place. But when we rush to fix it, we're saying to them, your need to want to belong is not valid. You know, so comfort for them. It doesn't start with fixing it. It starts with seeing it and them knowing you can see it.

[B]

Yeah, it's really good advice. I can just picture a dad who, you know, you mentioned like getting ready for prom or something. I can just picture the dad sitting there and their 15 year old is seeing on Instagram, oh, you know, my six friends are all getting their hair done together and I'm not. It will not help that child for you to say, oh, there's always next year, like that, or it's okay, like those words that you're trying to comfort, that's gonna do the exact opposite of what you're trying to accomplish. So we gotta steer clear of that. I think here's something that we can try instead. A simple father framework. It's called see steady shape. So see the pain that the kids are in without correcting it. That's the first step. Steady their emotions by staying calm yourself, be present with them. And then thirdly, shape your perspective slowly. Not in the very first conversation. This may be multiple talks, but that's a good way to practice helping them through a difficult spot.

[A]

And by doing that too, I think you can journey with them as they are figuring that out because that's going to look different from every grade. Right? And hopefully we want to encourage them and love them and direct them so they're not feeling it.

[B]

And that's a good point because just because you're popular in fourth grade doesn't mean you're going to be popular in eighth grade or whatnot. Because your, your friends change, the classes change may, you switch cities, you got a new job, you move, there's new schools, there's new activities. Everything changes throughout life. But their desire to be included in a group, that really doesn't go away. So this is something you're going to have to navigate with your kids all throughout life, but it's probably going to be a year by year job for you, and it's just going to look a little bit different as your kids grow and they mature.

[A]

Well, it just speaks to having those conversations early, earlier than you think.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, asking your third grader, what does it mean to be popular or maybe, maybe younger.

[C]

Yeah, good question. Good, good idea. Yeah, I, why don't we talk about some action steps?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I would say great action step is kind of reiterating what I was talking about before. But change your first response. Instead of trying to fix it, let's just stop and ask questions and try to understand, try to understand what they're going through and really the depth of, you know, the pain, the difficulty, the reality that they're going through. Sit with them, be with them in it, try to get them, name it. Like, hey, what do you, what are you really feeling? Because you get, you get down to the bottom of that and you kind of see what the need is and then just recognize that this is going to take longer. You cannot, you cannot put a paintbrush over this thing and make it go away. You're going to need to take the long road of sitting with them in pain. And it just reminds me of this, the things that Brene Brown has said before. You know, show me a person who's able to sit in the pain with somebody and I'll show you somebody who's done excellent work. And, and your work as a parent is to be with it, to be with your kid in the midst of this stuff because you need to help them navigate it. And in order to help them navigate it, you got to know where they are.

[A]

And it's so hard for guys. Right. We see our, our kids hurting, we just want to take it away. I mean, it's, it's a knee jerk reaction.

[B]

Yeah. Again, the second action step that I think we should point dads to is to shift the goal. Like, the goal is not to just be the most, like, person ever. Like my kids were Saying, what's popularity? Lots of people like you. I mean, that's not really the goal. The goal is to feel like you belong and to have security. That could happen with a very small group of people. It doesn't mean that the entire school thinks you're amazing. It could just be a very small group. But if you shift the goal away from popularity and put more of a focus onto belonging and security, I think you're on the right path as a dad. Remind your kids that they don't have to perform or do anything to be loved.

[A]

Loved.

[B]

And, and I think that's probably our number one message for every podcast discussion we do is you don't have to earn anything. You just, we love you, we care about you, and when you belong in a group, they're going to love you too well.

[C]

And that's the thing is like, that security is not going to come from their classmates. It's not. It's their, Their. Their security is gonna. Is gonna come from knowing that they are wonderfully made and, and learning what that means, learning who. Who they are are, you know, and their belonging is. They belong to the one who made them. And, and they belong to this family that you're a part of. And so learning that stuff and being, being like, really embracing who they are and being grateful for it and grateful for their life and grateful for all the things that God has made. I mean, that's the thing that ultimately brings security.

[A]

Yeah. And as they ride the roller coaster of, you know, the social world that they're having to navigate, we just always want to be that safe, strong place that they come home to. To go. This could change on a dime. This could be one post, one mistake, one, you know, conversation away for not being accepted that when they come home, they know there is nothing can change, that there's. And when I have to communicate it to mom and dad and I don't do it perfectly, and I get mad at them because I'm really upset. And we accept it and walk them through it, and this takes us to our pro move of the week, is to ask your kid, what does it mean to be popular? Because here's the thing. Your kid will not remember every lunchroom table they. That. That they set out, but they will remember that you were safe to talk to about what was going on in their lives at school and with other kids. So it's worth. It's worth the time. Thanks to Bobby and BJ for joining me for this conversation. Hey, if you're listening right now to the podcast did you know that you watch it on YouTube? So go ahead and jump on YouTube and subscribe. You're going to find thousands of hours of content that we think that you'll love that will be helpful to you. But most of all, we want to say thank you. Thank you for listening. We know that you and your kids will be glad that you did.

[D]

Thanks again for listening to the All Pro Dad Podcast. Behind every episode is our amazing team producer, Haley Mwat, audio and video editor Buck Buchanan, and production coordinator Corey Wilson Walliff. All Pro dad is the fatherhood program of the nonprofit Family first, along with our motherhood program, imom. We exist to help you love your family well. So remember, if you have more questions than answers, then you're probably in the right place. See you next time.