America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman: Lafayette

Summary

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American History Hotline – “America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman: Lafayette”

Podcast: American History Hotline
Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: Lloyd Kramer, historian and author of Lafayette in Two Public Cultures and Personal Identities in an Age of Revolutions
Date: August 6, 2025
Topic: The life and legacy of the Marquis de Lafayette—French hero of the American Revolution, transatlantic revolutionary, and enduring American icon.

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Episode Overview

This episode of American History Hotline tackles the listener-submitted question: “Who was the real Marquis de Lafayette, and why did he fight with the Americans during the Revolutionary War?” Host Bob Crawford is joined by leading Lafayette scholar Lloyd Kramer to unpack Lafayette’s dynamic career on both American and French soil, the roots of his revolutionary spirit, and his legendary 1824 U.S. “rock star” tour. The conversation highlights Lafayette’s impact as a military leader, his deep bond with George Washington, and how his ideals shaped his legacy on both sides of the Atlantic.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Lafayette at Yorktown

[04:41–07:29]

• Lafayette in Action: Kramer opens by dropping listeners into the Battle of Yorktown (Oct 1781), where Lafayette’s tactics (tracking Cornwallis' army, coordinating with Washington and Rochambeau) were crucial.

  • “He fought with [Cornwallis] as a kind of guerrilla commander and ended up at Yorktown and said to General Washington, I have him trapped. Bring the French army … and we have the British captured here.” – Lloyd Kramer [05:28]

• American Relationships: Lafayette’s deferential and diplomatic style set him apart from many Europeans, fostering trust with Washington and Hamilton. Notably, he let Hamilton take the lead in storming a British redoubt—a gesture Hamilton “appreciated about Lafayette’s generosity.”

  • “He was always deferential to his American friends … he got along with Americans so well because he had a style that was congenial, supportive, and the style of a listener.” – Lloyd Kramer [07:21]

2. Early Life and Motivation

[07:41–12:06]

• Aristocratic Lineage and Orphanhood: Lafayette’s full name was Marie-Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette. He lost both parents by age 12 but inherited considerable wealth, positioning him among France’s richest boys.

• Marriage and Military Entry: His marriage into the influential Noailles family facilitated his entry as an officer into their family regiment.

• Psychological Insights: Kramer notes Lafayette’s early fascination with heroic ideals, shaped by readings of Plutarch's Lives.

  • “He had studied the writings of Plutarch ... and I think this inspired Lafayette. He wanted to be famous from an early age.” – Lloyd Kramer [10:53]

3. Lafayette Jumps Into the American Revolution

[12:11–15:33]

• Inspiration: At age 18, a chance conversation with the Duke of Gloucester—King George III’s sympathetic brother—galvanized Lafayette’s determination to fight for the American cause.

• Getting to America: Through secret dealings with Silas Deane (an American agent in Paris), Lafayette secured a “Major General” commission and, at just 19, purchased his own ship, the Victoire, and sailed to the colonies.

  • “He sailed to America and landed near Charleston in June of 1777. 19 years old.” – Lloyd Kramer [15:25]

4. First Encounters with the Americans

[19:41–21:05]

• Challenging Introduction: Upon arrival, Congress was initially indifferent to Lafayette’s credentials, but Benjamin Franklin vouched for him.
• First Meeting with Washington: Their Philadelphia meeting sparked an enduring “father-son” bond. Lafayette served as an unpaid major general for the entire war.

5. Washington & Lafayette: Mutual Respect

[21:05–22:30]

• Psychological Bond: With Washington lacking a biological son and Lafayette having lost his own father, a unique relationship blossomed, marked by sincerity and commitment to listening rather than commanding.

  • “Washington and Lafayette formed an incredible bond that never broke for the rest of their lives.” – Lloyd Kramer [22:28]

6. Key Revolutionary Battles

[22:43–24:54]

• Brandywine: Lafayette’s first battle, where he was wounded but helped rally American troops.

  • “This 19 year old boy, he saw the Americans pulling back and he raced toward the soldiers ... said hold your ground ... he was shot in the leg ... [giving] him lifelong credibility as the Frenchman who shed his blood for the American cause.” – Lloyd Kramer [23:13]

• Other Key Moments: Valley Forge, Monmouth Courthouse, Barren Hill, Newport (coordinating with French fleet).

• Diplomatic Role: In 1779, he returned to France, becoming a crucial advocate for French support, working closely with Franklin and French authorities to secure the decisive military alliance.

7. Pivotal Figure in Franco-American Relations

[24:54–26:29]

• Lafayette the Diplomat: While not solely responsible for France’s alliance, Kramer credits Lafayette as a major persuader who affirmed American resolve to French leaders.

8. Postwar Life – Advocacy and Revolution in France

[26:29–29:21]

• Return to France: After the war, Lafayette became an advocate for abolition and religious freedom, proposing to Washington a joint emancipation experiment—foreshadowing his lifelong commitment to liberty.

  • “He wrote to Washington and proposed that they join together in a campaign to abolish slavery … my dear general, you could have a huge impact if you freed your enslaved people.” – Lloyd Kramer [27:03]

• French Revolution: Lafayette introduced the first draft of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen and commanded the National Guard, but his moderate constitutionalism left him isolated between radical and conservative forces.

9. French Revolution’s Challenges & Imprisonment

[29:21–33:51]

• Political Isolation: Lafayette “managed to alienate both the right wing and left wing” as he advocated for both popular freedoms and law and order.

• Imprisonment: Fleeing for his life, Lafayette was arrested by Austrians, spent five years in solitary confinement, and was eventually released—his wife famously joining him in prison to care for him.

  • “She left France ... and she stayed with him until he was freed.” – Lloyd Kramer [32:15]

10. The Triumphant U.S. Tour of 1824

[31:25–37:47]

• Return As a “Rock Star”: After years in France, Lafayette accepted an invitation from President Monroe to tour America; he was received with adulation more reminiscent of modern pop stars, visiting all 24 states.

  • “His visit was like a tour of Taylor Swift or, you know, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. He was a rock star.” – Lloyd Kramer [33:35]

• Bridge in Polarized Times: The tour—during the contentious 1824 presidential campaign—offered “the only thing everybody could agree on.”

• Message to America: Everywhere he went, Lafayette reaffirmed American revolutionary ideals and nationhood, serving as a living link to George Washington.

  • “Here comes somebody as this ghost from George Washington's camp to say, I knew George Washington ... General Washington would be so pleased to see how this country has grown.” – Lloyd Kramer [37:16]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Generosity and Leadership:

  • “Lafayette wanted to command, but he let Hamilton take the lead ... that was a key to Lafayette’s success in the American Revolution.” – Lloyd Kramer [07:09]

• Psychological Bond with Washington:

  • “We know that Washington had no son ... Lafayette had no father ... The age differential made them a kind of father-son connection.” – Lloyd Kramer [21:24]

• Abolition Advocacy:

  • “He wrote to Washington and proposed ... we’ll both announce that we are freeing our slaves. And Washington said, well, that's a great idea, but I don't think the time is right.” – Lloyd Kramer [27:03]

• Lafayette as Unifier:

  • “The only thing everybody could agree on was Lafayette was a great man. And Lafayette was very careful to remain nonpartisan.” – Lloyd Kramer [34:34]

• Tour’s National Significance:

  • “Wherever he went, he gave kind of the same speech. He said ... America had shown how to have a successful revolution and to create a constitutional government ... You can imagine what this meant to people when the country was so polarized, so anxious.” – Lloyd Kramer [36:33]

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Further Reading Recommendations

• Lafayette in Two Public Cultures and Personal Identities in an Age of Revolutions, by Lloyd Kramer
• Lafayette in the Somewhat United States, by Sarah Vowell
• Hero of Two Worlds: The Marquis de Lafayette in the Age of Revolution, by Mike Duncan

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Major Timestamps

• [04:41] – Opening Lafayette at Yorktown
• [08:14] – Lafayette’s full name, family, and early years
• [12:11] – His exposure to revolutionary ideas and desire for fame
• [13:48] – Securing a commission; buying his own ship
• [19:41] – First American encounters, meeting Washington
• [22:43] – Brandywine and other battles
• [27:03] – Letter to Washington on slavery
• [29:27] – Political isolation during the French Revolution
• [31:25] – The 1824 U.S. Tour
• [36:33] – Tour’s unifying national significance

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Conclusion

This in-depth episode brings Lafayette’s extraordinary life to light, emphasizing his lasting influence on transatlantic democratic ideals and the American memory. With engaging storytelling and expert historical insight, Bob Crawford and Lloyd Kramer present Lafayette not just as a heroic military figure, but as a vital bridge between American and European revolutions—one whose ideals are still studied (and celebrated) centuries later.

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Transcript

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

December 29, 1975 LaGuardia Airport the holiday rush.

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Parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then everything changed.

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[Bob Crawford]

You've reached American History Hotline. You ask the questions, we get the answers. Leave a message. Hey there American History Hotliners. Your host Bob Crawford here. Happy to be joining you again for another episode of American History Hotline. You're the ones with the questions. I'm a guy trying to get you some answers. And keep those questions Coming. Our email is americanhistoryhotlinemail.com that's American history Hotline. Extra points for sending us a video or a voice memo of you asking your question. Oh, and normally I'd say let's keep this question to this continent, but today is a bit of a special case. We're talking about America's favorite fighting Frenchman. That's right. Lafayette. The Marquis himself. I love Lafayette. He is one of these great figures from American history. We're going to get into it. I don't want to spoil it because we have an amazing guest to talk about Lafayette, but I got to say, there is a Lafayette John Quincy Adams connection. We'll talk about that later. And you know, JQA is my favorite. Here to help me answer this question about Lafayette today is Lloyd Kramer, author of the book Lafayette in Two Public Cultures and Personal Identities in an Age of Revolutions. Lloyd, thanks for joining me today.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Well, thank you, Bob. I'm very happy to be here.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, Lloyd, here's the question we were hoping you could help us answer.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Hi, this is Philippe in Paris. I love the characterization of Lafayette in the musical Hamilton, and I learned little about him in history class, but I don't actually know much about him. Who was the real Marquis de Lafayette and why did he fight with the Americans during the Revolutionary War?

[Bob Crawford]

Lloyd, I want to start a little cinematically here with some action. Can you set the scene by dropping us into the Battle of Yorktown and what the Marquis de Lafayette was doing during that battle.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Well, the Battle of Yorktown would have been the culmination of his American experience in October of 1781, but it exemplifies his values, his style, and his success. He had been sent to Virginia in the spring of 1781 to capture General Benedict Arnold, who was by then fighting with the British. He never was able to capture Arnold, but he had a small detachment of troops and he began tracking the British army. When General Cornwallis came into Virginia later that year, he fought with him as a kind of guerrilla commander and ended up at Yorktown and said to General Washington, I have him trapped. Bring the French army under General Rochambeau and your army, and we have the British captured here at Yorktown.

[Bob Crawford]

In Yorktown, there was this relationship. That's where a lot of us know that relationship between Hamilton and Lafayette. They had this Alexander Hamilton, of course, and the Marquis de Lafayette. They were both like sons to General Washington, correct?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

That's correct. That you could even say there was a little rivalry between the two of them as to which one Washington would Like best or support the most and.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, you go ahead.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Well, I would just say Yorktown was one of the places where they ended up together. Because, of course, Hamilton had been eager to have a more active military role. He had often done a lot of secretarial work for Washington. And they were both involved, Lafayette and Hamilton, in the command of troops that were to storm the redoubts that surrounded the British position in Yorktown. And I would just say one additional thing about that. Lafayette wanted to command, but he let Hamilton take the lead in the storming of one of the redoubts at Yorktown. And I think Hamilton appreciated that about Lafayette's generosity. And we might say that was a key to Lafayette's success in the American Revolution. Unlike many Europeans, many French people, he was always deferential to his American friends, starting above all with George Washington, whom he said, I want to listen to you. I don't want to tell you what to do. But he got along with Americans so well because he had a style that was congenial, supportive, and. And the style of a listener rather than someone who just told people, this is what you should do.

[Bob Crawford]

What a lesson for life. You're young and you get out of school and you start working somewhere. And I remember being told by someone who said, you do your best. You soak up what we tell you like a sponge, and other people will brag for you, they will sing your praises. You just listen to whatever people want to teach. Okay, let's get back to the beginning for the Marquis. First of all, what was the Marquis de Lafayette's real name? Can you remember the whole thing?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Well, the whole name was something like Gilbert de Mortier. Anyway, he was always called Gilbert. That was his name. Gilbert de Marquis de Lafayette, Marie Joseph de Moitier de Lafayette. You know, something like that. I should know. I've written a whole book about him. But. But nobody called him by his whole name, although he was called Gilbert by his close family. But the Americans just always called him the Marquis de Lafayette or General Lafayette. And his family was from. He was from an old aristocratic family in central France, an area called Auvergne, which is near Clermont Ferrand in central France. His father had been a military officer in the French army, and he was killed when young Lafayette Gilbert was only 2 years old. He never knew his father. His father was killed during the Seven Years War and a Battle of Minden by a British military unit. So Lafayette grew up never knowing his father.

[Bob Crawford]

How did Lafayette get into military service?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

So Lafayette lived till he was about 10 or 12 down in the countryside there in the South. But his mother's family was from the other parts of France, and she took him to Paris. She died when he was only about 12 years old. So by the time he. Before he was a teenager, Lafayette had lost both his parents. But because of his mother's wealth, he inherited a whole lot of money. He was one of the richest boys in all of France. And there was a wealthy, influential family called the Noailles family. They had five daughters. They needed a wealthy young man. They arranged through family members that these two people, Lafayette and Adrienne, would be married, and they had a family regiment. And so he became an officer in the Noaille family regiment. He had already been in the military a bit, but then he became an officer in their family regiment.

[Bob Crawford]

I was watching the Ben Franklin series on Apple tv, and Lafayette is a prominent character. He's portrayed as a young military mind looking for a cause. He wanted a fight. Is that accurate?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

I think he wanted to be famous. You know, this is an interesting psychological question. What made this young Frenchmen differ from other people of his class and his community? He had studied the writings of Plutarch. I don't know if people are so familiar with Plutarch now, but Plutarch was an ancient writer who had written the lives of Greek and Roman heroes, great political and military leaders. And he had shown, Plutarch had shown that that noble, virtuous service was the way to get a public reputation. And he was an influential author for people of Lafayette's generation and the noble class. And I think this inspired Lafayette. He wanted to be famous from an early age. But there he was. He joined this family regiment and went off to eastern France, the city of Metz, Metz in the east. And for several years, he was just a young boy without too much prospect, except to be another officer in a French regiment on the frontier. But he dreamed of being famous.

[Bob Crawford]

So. So how did he actually get involved in the American Revolution?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

So this is one of the most interesting things. He was out there in eastern France at a French military base. And in the late summer of 1775, and remember, Lafayette was not even 18 years old at that time. The brother of the king of England came through on the tour, visiting various sites in Europe. And he happened to come to this base. And the commander at the base or other officers invited Lafayette to have dinner with this brother of the king, George of England. And this brother, the Duke of Gloucester, was critical of his brother. He actually sympathized with the Americans. He Said, I think the Americans have some good ideas. I don't know why we're trying to defeat them over there. The revolution had just started, Battle of Bunker Hill. And Lafayette was fascinated by this. He had also just joined Lafayette, had just joined the Freemasons, where he had begun to hear about ideas like liberty or the value of reason. And the combination of his education about great Roman heroes, the Freemasons, and then the stories of the Duke of Gloucester fascinated him. And he decided he wanted to get involved somehow in the American Revolution. But how to do it, that was the problem.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, so what was, yeah, so how did he do it? What was the American response like? Like, what did they think of him when he showed up?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

So first of all, how do you get to America if you happen to be in the French army, which has no relationship with America? At that time, there was an American agent in Paris named Silas Dean who had been sent by the Continental Congress to recruit officers and gain support from the French government. But of course, the French were not officially at war with England, so they couldn't support what Dean was doing. And this is 1770, this was now. Dean arrived in December of 1776, and Lafayette began negotiating with him very shortly after that. So Dean knew that Lafayette's family, the Noaille family, was very influential, very powerful, and therefore he would be a good recruit. And one of the officers who Dean had met told Dean about Lafayette. Lafayette went to Paris, secretly met with Dean. Dean promised him a position of Major General by this, you know, a 19 year old boy. At this point, if you go to America, you can be a major general in the army. But of course, there was no way for him to get there. So Lafayette secretly bought his own ship, a ship called the Victoire, and worked out a plan with some other officers who also wanted to escape and go to America. And in April of 1777, carrying a letter from Silas Deane offering him a commission in the army, he sailed to America and landed near Charleston in June of 1777. 19 years old.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is hot out there this summer, right? But don't sweat it. We got tons of ways to save on your family's favorite personal care items to keep yourself feeling cool and smelling good. Now through September 9th, earn four times points when you shop for items from your favorite brands like Right Guard Raw Sugar, Dove Soft Soap and Olay. Then use your points for discounts on groceries or gas on future purchases. Offer end September 9th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

December 29, 1975 LaGuardia Airport the holiday rush.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then at 6:33pm everything changed.

[Law and Criminal Justice System Narrator / Eli Lilly Advertiser]

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Apparently the explosion actually impelled metal glass.

[Law and Criminal Justice System Narrator / Eli Lilly Advertiser]

The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.

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[Bob Crawford]

This is the French, I mean, American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Today my guest is Lloyd Kramer, author of the book Lafayette in two Public Cultures and Personal Identities in an Age of Revolutions. Today we're talking about the Marquis de Lafayette, a man who joined the ranks of one name celebrities like Cher and Bono. To us Americans, he's simply Lafayette. Before we get back to the conversation, we want your help. Record yourself using the voice memo app on your phone and email it to AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com that's AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com now back to the show, Lloyd. Okay, so Lafayette comes to the United States. He is a 19 year old major general. Take us back to the first meeting between him and Washington.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Okay. Then he arrives in Charleston with a promise that he can be a major general, but he's not yet a major general. He travels overland. It took about four or five weeks, maybe more, to get to Philadelphia. He goes to the Continental Congress in the summer of 1777 and says, Here I am to be a major general. And the Congress just looked at the letter and said, great, but we don't need you. He at first was rebuffed, but about that time, by this time Franklin, Benjamin Franklin was in Paris and he wrote a letter and the Congress got the letter. And Franklin said, this guy Lafayette, whom he had met briefly, this guy Lafayette has important family members. You ought to take him seriously. Lafayette then went to. Somehow he was able to meet George Washington at the City Tavern in Philadelphia in late August. And they immediately connected. And Washington also decided, because he had heard about Lafayette's family, especially his in laws. And Washington said, okay, we'll make you a major general. Congress approves it, but you will get no pay. So Lafayette served in the entire Revolutionary War as an unpaid major general in the Continental Army.

[Bob Crawford]

So my, so my image of Washington is he's a tough guy. He's not going to smile. It will take a lot to impress him or catch his eye or his ear. How did Lafayette do it? I mean, do we know?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Well, you know, there's been a lot of speculation about Washington's attraction to Lafayette. We know, of course, that Washington had no son. He had a stepson, but he had never had a son. And we know that Lafayette had no father. Remember, Lafayette's father died when he was 2 years old. And the age differential made them a kind of father son connection. And Lafayette from the beginning conveyed to Washington that he was there to help, to listen, to support the cause, and not to tell anybody what to do. Washington was a realist who knew that the Americans needed the help of powerful people in France. He was also a human being who warmed to Lafayette's personal style, to Lafayette's willingness to listen, and to Lafayette's energy and ambition. So Washington and Lafayette formed an incredible bond that never broke for the rest of their lives.

[Bob Crawford]

Tell us about some of the notable battles that Lafayette. I know we already talked about Yorktown a little bit, but we. What were some of the notable battles that Lafayette fought in and how did he perform?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

So his first Important battle was at Brandywine, just literally a couple of weeks after he had joined as a major general. This was outside Philadelphia. The British were coming to Philadelphia to try to drive out the Congress and the Americans were on the defensive and the British were winning this battle. And this was Lafayette's first battle. This 19 year old boy, he saw the Americans pulling back and he raced toward the soldiers who were retreating and said hold your ground. I don't know how he said it in English. He had been learning English on the boat coming over and he was shot in the leg, fell to the ground and. But they held the line. He was rescued by Continental soldiers and Washington heard he had been wounded and he protected him and sent him to Bethlehem, Pennsylvania to be healed by Moravian settlers in Pennsylvania. That was his first battle and it gave him a lifelong credibility as the Frenchman who shed his blood for the American cause. But he was later in other battles. He returned, he was at Valley Forge during the winter, he was at the battle of Monmouth Courthouse year he was at a battle of Barren Hill where he was almost captured, also near Philadelphia. But in 1778 after the French American alliance was signed, he went up to New England to coordinate with the arrival of a French fleet that was coming to Newport. That didn't go so well. It didn't really lead to any success. But then in 1779 he went back to, to France and to help arrange with the French government to send an army. And he was a key negotiator with Benjamin Franklin and the Comte de Vergennes, the foreign minister of France, to convince the King to send an entire French army, which they did in 1780.

[Bob Crawford]

So Lafayette was pivotal in having the French enter the war on the side of the Americans. Is that, can I say that?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Is that I, I would arguably pivotable. I mean a lot might turn on that word. I think the French had their own reasons and this 20 year old boy wasn't the decisive reason, but he was a major player. He corresponded with Vergennes, he. He worked closely with Franklin during that time. When he went back to Paris in 1779, he strongly advocated that the Americans could win. That was something the French wondered about. And when things went badly in America he would write letters and say these are brave soldiers, they can do this, they can win. And he helped to facilitate the French agreement to join the arm the join the war. He helped, he hoped he might be the commander himself. But the French government realized they needed an experienced commander and they appointed General Rochambeau who was a brilliant general and an important figure in the success of the French army.

[Bob Crawford]

And this culminates at Yorktown, where we began our conversation. So what happens to Lafayette after the war? Like, why? Like, what I, I never understood is why didn't he stay in the United States? He is beloved at this point.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

So of course, he had married his wife, Adrienne de Noailles De Lafayette was back in France. He by this time had a child, George Washington Lafayette. And he would soon. He wanted to go back to his family, you know, plus, he was ambitious. He wanted to make a career in France. So he returned to France after the war. He made one more trip to America in 1784 and took a tour around a number of states and had a long visit with George Washington. In fact, in the aftermath of that visit, he wrote to Washington and proposed that they join together in a campaign to abolish slavery. This is the first moment of Lafayette's advocacy of the abolition of slavery. And he, he said, you know, my dear general, you could have a huge impact if you freed your enslaved people. And I would like to buy a plantation in French Guiana down in South America, and I would do the same. We'll both announce that we are freeing our slaves. And Washington said, well, that's a great idea, but I don't think the time is right. Lafayette himself went through with the plan. He bought two farms in Guyana with enslaved workers and launched a plan to train those enslaved workers and to free them. But then when the French revolution came in 1789, the project had not been completed. He lost all his land and he never succeeded in that project. But Lafayette went back to France and became an advocate for human rights. Especially, he joined the movement to abolish the slave trade. He became an advocate for the rights of Protestant French people who did not have equal civil rights. And then when the French revolution began in 1789, he became the commander of the Parisian National Guard in 1789. And I should just note one other great contribution he made in the French Revolution. In the first stage, he introduced the first proposal for the declaration of the rights of man and citizen to the national assembly in July of 1789. And after the Bastille was stormed by the crowd on July 14, the French national assembly appointed him to be the first commander of the Parisian National Guard.

[Bob Crawford]

But something happens during the French Revolution, unfortunate for Lafayette.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Well, the problem Lafayette had was he. He was a kind of middle of the road person who wanted a constitutional monarchy. He did not want an absolute monarchy. As some of the conservative monarchists continued to want. But he was also not in favor of a republic in France, as the more radical Jacobins began to favor. Therefore, he managed to alienate both the right wing and the left wing. I think anybody who knows about how intense polarization can be in politics can understand. Lafayette was in the middle, and he managed to alienate people on both sides. He demanded more freedom for the people when he talked to the monarchist, and he demanded more law and order when he talked to the radical revolutionaries.

[Bob Crawford]

I think this is a good. A good time to remind our listeners or to make them aware that if you want to know the whole story of Lafayette, his time in America, his time in France, his early life, his later life, read Lloyd's book, Lafayette in Two Public Cultures and Personal Identities in an Age of Revolutions. Also check out Lafayette in the Somewhat United States by Sarah Val, another great book about Lafayette. Okay, so let's jump ahead. This is the moment I've been waiting for the whole interview, because people last year went crazy in this country for Taylor Swift's concert tour. They paid exorbitant sums of money. Well, 200 years ago, I believed it was started in 1824, fall of 1824, something like that. Lafayette returns to the United States after being away for how long was he?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Like, 40, 40 years? From 1780, he was like 40 years.

[Bob Crawford]

He comes back. This is after the French Revolution, after he's jailed, after all this, he comes back, and he comes back with his son, George Washington Lafayette, and he tours the United States, and people went bananas for him. Tell us about this tour.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Okay, let me just note very briefly that after two or three years in the French Revolution, he had to flee for his life. He was arrested by the Austrians. He was thrown in prison for five years, solitary confinement. Napoleon Bonaparte ultimately helped him escape. He went back.

[Bob Crawford]

Lloyd, is it true that when he was in prison, his wife went into prison with him to take care of him?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

She left France and about the second or third year of his imprisonment, getting out of prison herself, where she had been placed by the radicals. And she went to his prison in Olmutz in eastern. What would be in the Czech Republic now, and it was in the Austrian Empire. And she stayed with him until he was freed. He went back to France eventually, but he opposed Bonaparte because he believed Bonaparte was an authoritarian, which he was, and he refused to collaborate with Napoleon. After Napoleon fell from favor or power, Lafayette became active again in French politics. But he also lost his position in the Chamber of deputies in 1824. And President James Monroe, knowing about Lafayette's situation, invited him on behalf of the Congress to make a return tour to America, in part because Monroe wanted to say to the Europeans, this is the man whose values, his commitment to rights, his belief in democracy, his belief in human freedom. This is the man we recognize and honor in America. And Lafayette came back in 1824 because he was out of a job, and he also wanted to make a political statement in Europe. And as you say, his visit was like a tour of Taylor Swift or, you know, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. He. He was a rock star.

[Bob Crawford]

Hey. It's also interesting, Lloyd, that if anyone who I. I prefer, they're all online. Go back to the Congressional Record, all the different incarnations of the Congressional Globe, the Congressional Record Register of debates. You go back to 1823, 1824. The Congress is debating the money it's going to cost to send the ships to go pick up Lafayette and bring them here. Like, it's all there. And it was this incredibly. In a very divided country, right where 1824, we're coming off of the Missouri Compromise, which was incredibly divisive. We're coming off of a global depression. You know, 1819, there was a terrible economic downturn. And this was a moment that kind of brought the country together.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Well, it was. But it's amazing because he arrived in New York in August of 1824, and it was the beginning. It was really when the presidential campaign of 1824 was taking off. This is John. Back to John Quincy Adams. This was the most divisive campaign since 1800, when Jefferson and John Adams and the country was torn apart because Adams and Jackson represented different regions of the country, different values. Adams, the more educated northeasterner, Jackson, the populace from Tennessee. And the only thing everybody could agree on was Lafayette was a great man. And Lafayette was very careful to remain nonpartisan. He would greet people of all sides. He toured first in the Northeast. He spent the winter in Washington. And then he took a tour of the south and went to all the United States.

[Bob Crawford]

I gotta respectfully interrupt you. He stayed in Washington. He stays for a time. If I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong. He stays in the president's house. Now we call it the White House. And he and his entourage stay in the president's house. And Louisa Catherine Adams, John Quincy Adams wife, she was ready for the guests. You know, the house guests. You know, it's fun to have people for a little while. Then it's time to go.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, it was a difficult thing because people wanted to be around Lafayette. So wherever he went, it wasn't just Lafayette. There were lots of people coming there. So let me just say about why Lafayette had such an impact. As I said, he had visited all 24 states, but wherever he went, he gave kind of the same speech. He said, first of all, that America had shown how to have a successful revolution. These were themes that were very important to the emergence of American national identity. America had shown how to have a successful revolution and to create a constitutional government in which people abided by the laws and guidelines of a constitution. And he said the success of this system was confirmed by the prosperity and economic growth of the country. And he said, I know that George Washington and the people who I knew in the Continental army, they would approve of what you have created. Now, you can imagine what this meant to people when the country was so polarized, so anxious. It was the moment when the founding generation was passing away. And here comes somebody as this, a ghost from George Washington's camp to say, I knew George Washington and George. No, General Washington. Nobody called him George. General Washington would be so pleased to see how this country has grown.

[Bob Crawford]

We've been talking with Lloyd Kramer, author of Lafayette and Two Public Cultures and Personal Identities in an Age of Revolutions. Lloyd, thanks for joining us on American History Hotline.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

It's a great pleasure and I hope people will continue to explore the life of Lafayette. It's very important. Could I recommend just one other book?

[Bob Crawford]

Please?

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

There is a book by Mike Duncan called Hero of Two the Marquis de Lafayette in the Age of Revolution, and it's a more recent biography, and I think it also provides a lot of very helpful information. I would recommend that as well.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, when an author recommends another book on the same subject, you take that recommendation. Plenty of great books now that our listeners have been assigned to read and enjoy. Lloyd, thank you so much.

[Narrator / Interviewee Lloyd Kramer]

Thank you, Bob. And thanks for what you're doing with this podcast. It's very important to keep history in the public conversation.

[Bob Crawford]

You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of iHeart podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan Runtal and Jason English. Original music composed by me, Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is americanhistoryhotlinemail.com if you like the show, please tell your friends and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me up on social media to ask a history question or to let me know what you think. Of the show. You can find me at bobcrawford Bass. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

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