Did Thomas Jefferson Steal the Declaration of Independence?

Summary

---

American History Hotline — “Did Thomas Jefferson Steal the Declaration of Independence?”

Podcast: American History Hotline
Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: David Fleming, author of Who’s Your Founding Father? One Man’s Epic Quest to Uncover the First True Declaration of Independence
Date: May 6, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this lively episode, host Bob Crawford dives into one of American history’s most intriguing debates: Did Thomas Jefferson plagiarize the Declaration of Independence? He’s joined by author David Fleming, whose recent book investigates the controversial and largely forgotten Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence. Together, they unpack a centuries-old rivalry, explore historical evidence and scholarly skepticism, and examine why the credit for American independence is such a contentious subject—especially for North Carolinians.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Adams-Jefferson Correspondence & the Mecklenburg Declaration

• John Adams and Thomas Jefferson’s Late-Life Letters

  • David Fleming highlights the fiery and sarcastic tone of Adams’ correspondence with Jefferson, noting how “political rhetoric has always been awful” (00:00–00:26).
  • Adams discovered a local newspaper reprinting of the Mecklenburg Declaration and wrote to Jefferson expressing suspicion that Jefferson had borrowed from it (02:13).
  • Fleming: “Adams is essentially giddy because he feels like he has proof...that prove[s] Thomas Jefferson...was a lightweight phony” (02:50).

• Mecklenburg Declaration & Resolves

  • The Mecklenburg Declaration (or “Meck Deck”) was allegedly signed on May 20, 1775—over a year before the national Declaration.
  • The Resolves, a follow-up, outlined governance after independence: “The Resolves are like a business, like, memo about...how we’re going to run our new country” (04:37).

The Mystery and Origins of the Meck Deck

• David’s Personal Connection
  • Began investigating after noticing the 1775 date on North Carolina’s flag: “Why would the Date...be 14 months before we even declared independence as a country?” (05:21).
  • Describes the signers as “Scots Irish Presbyterians...They liked to fight, they liked to argue, they liked to drink whiskey, and they did not like anyone trying to govern them other than God” (06:00).
  • “They became the first...to formally declare independence from England” (06:25).

Language Similarity, Authorship, and Plagiarism?

• Overlapping Phrases

  • Fleming: “There are, I think, five or six phrases that Thomas Jefferson’s own biographer said can’t be a coincidence...somebody stole something” (07:38).
  • Jefferson couldn’t have borrowed from the Mecklenburg Declaration—but the reverse is impossible because of the timeline (08:02).

• Jefferson’s Creative Process

  • Jefferson was told to quickly synthesize existing ideas and language, drawing from George Mason (Virginia Constitution) and John Locke: “He borrowed heavily...and the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence” (09:00).
  • “If Jefferson had ever just admitted, hey, I did what you guys asked me, I sort of borrowed. I cut and pasted. But once the Declaration became famous...he then started telling people...‘No, this was all me’”(09:30).

The Skepticism of Historians and David’s Research Journey

• Why the Controversy?

  • Use of “gatekeeping” by professional historians to cast doubt—and the irony that North Carolinians themselves are often most skeptical (16:06).
  • Fleming: “People outside of North Carolina read the book, are immediately all in...It’s the people in North Carolina who are way more skeptical...It’s been bizarre” (16:54).

• Becoming a “Historian”

  • Fleming describes battles against the “exclusive club” mentality in professional history (18:42).
  • Fleming: “We get gatekeeped and gaslit about any new...history is a living, breathing thing. As we uncover more evidence...you’ve got to question it” (18:42).
  • Cites Alexis Coe: “Question it all, especially presidents” (19:45).

Adams Family Feud: the Joy of "Catching" Jefferson

• Adams and John Quincy Adams as Jefferson Critics

  • Bob Crawford relates how both John Adams and his son, John Quincy, relished criticizing and calling out Jefferson’s claims (20:27).
  • Adams’ glee: “He can’t contain his glee...a gotcha moment” (22:22).

• Personality Parallels

  • Crawford draws a tongue-in-cheek parallel between the Adamses and Mr. Potter from It’s a Wonderful Life: “There is a touch of Mr. Potter in John Quincy Adams and John Adams...just the curmudgeon, not the greed” (22:51).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Adams-Jefferson Letters:
  “If you think, like, people were sarcastic and...mean and the political rhetoric is too much, you should read John Adams letters to Thomas Jefferson. It’s incredible.”
  — David Fleming (00:00)

• On the Meck Deck’s Authors:
  “They were Scots Irish Presbyterians. So what that means is they...liked to fight, they liked to argue, they liked to drink whiskey, and they did not like anyone trying to govern them other than God.”
  — David Fleming (06:00)

• On Plagiarism vs. Synthesis:
  “There are...phrases that Thomas Jefferson’s own biographer said can't be a coincidence...Either the Meck deck stole from Jefferson or Jefferson stole from the Meck deck, but somebody stole something.”
  — David Fleming (07:38)

• On Declaring Authorship:
  “Once the Declaration became famous and Jefferson realized that that was going to be his most...remembered accomplishment...he then started telling people...‘No, no, I...this was all me.’”
  — David Fleming (09:30)

• On Gatekeeping in History:
  “The whole Meck deck history...has been sort of...gatekeeped and gaslit about any new [evidence]...history is a living, breathing thing...you got to question it all.”
  — David Fleming (18:42)

• On the Curmudgeonly Adamses:
  “There is a touch of Mr. Potter in John Quincy Adams and John Adams...just the curmudgeon...They are such curmudgeons that...John Adams found great joy in catching Jefferson in his...whatever he did there.”
  — Bob Crawford (22:51)

• The Final Verdict:
  “Oh, 100%. 100%. He borrowed. He borrowed from it...It was the fact that he retroactively tried to take credit for it all.”
  — David Fleming (23:43)

• On North Carolina’s Intellectuals:
  “The men who actually thought up and drafted the Meck deck, they were all Princeton grads...there’s this sort of dismissive, ‘Oh, this can’t happen,’ but if you do the work and the research, you realize it’s very different from what historians have been telling us.”
  — David Fleming (25:31)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:00–01:30 — Introduction; Adams-Jefferson letters and the tone of early political discourse.
• 02:13–05:13 — The story and context of the Mecklenburg Declaration & Resolves.
• 05:21–07:26 — David’s research origins; the significance of May 20, 1775.
• 07:38–10:44 — Similarities between Mecklenburg Declaration and Jefferson’s; Jefferson’s approach.
• 12:56–14:55 — David Fleming’s epic research quest and narrative voice.
• 15:29–16:54 — Reactions from historians and North Carolinians.
• 18:42–20:27 — Research methods, historian gatekeeping, and calls to question everything.
• 20:27–22:51 — Adams family feud with Jefferson: glee in “gotcha” moments.
• 23:43–26:22 — Fleming’s verdict: Jefferson definitely borrowed; the push for North Carolina’s recognition.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode delivers an accessible, witty, and deeply researched exploration of the Mecklenburg Declaration’s legacy and its relationship to Jefferson’s authorship of America’s most sacred text. While Fleming ultimately concludes Jefferson “100% borrowed” from the earlier document, the real story is about how our understanding of history is shaped, contested, and—sometimes—guarded by gatekeepers. In the words of both Fleming and his hero Alexis Coe: “Question it all. Especially presidents.”

---

Transcript

[David Fleming]

Oh, and these letters. Oh, my God, Bob. These letters, they. If you think, like, people were sarcastic and, like, angry and mean and the political rhetoric is too much, you should read John Adams Letters to Thomas Jefferson. It's. It's incredible.

[Bob Crawford]

It just.

[David Fleming]

It's almost soothing in the fact that you're like, okay, things haven't really changed that much. It was. It was. It's always been awful.

[Bob Crawford]

You've reached American History Hotline. You ask the questions, we get the answers. Leave a message. Hey there, American History Hotliners. Bob Crawford here. Thrilled to be joining you again for another episode of American History Hotline, the show where you ask the questions. And the best way to get us a question is to record a video or a voice memo on your phone and email it to american history hotlinemail.com. that's american history hotlinemail dot com. Okay, today's question is about the Declaration of Independence. You know, that thing that Nicholas Cage stole in National Treasure? The question comes to us from Jack in Shreveport. He says, I just read a book by David Fleming called who's yous Founding Father? He thinks Thomas Jefferson might have stolen or maybe borrowed the Declaration of Independence. Can you have David on the show to talk about this? Well, Jack, yes, we can. David Fleming, welcome to American History Hotline. Thanks, Bob.

[David Fleming]

Glad to be here.

[Bob Crawford]

David, what's the full title of your book?

[David Fleming]

It is who's yous Founding One Man's Epic Quest to Uncover the First True Declaration of Independence.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, so I love that this story starts with a John Adams connection, because I've written a book about John Quincy Adams, America's founding son. John Quincy Adams, from President to political maverick. If anybody out there is just one, they probably never heard me talk about this before. Anyway, what did Adams discover about the Declaration of independence in 1819?

[David Fleming]

Gosh. Okay, so this is really where the story and the legend of the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence, which is the. Yes, it starts. It's really what legitimized the whole thing was John Adams in 1819, when he reconnected with Thomas Jefferson and they became pen pals late in life after being enemies or frenemies. John Adams had come across a reprinting in his local paper of the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence.

[Bob Crawford]

And.

[David Fleming]

And he wrote, there are these incredible series of letters back and forth between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, where Adams is essentially giddy because he feels like he has proof. He found receipts that prove Thomas Jefferson, who I think he always sort of didn't really like that much and kind of thought was a lightweight phony. But Adams.

[Bob Crawford]

Look, the Adams men didn't like anybody. Let's just get that out there. They don't like anybody. Everybody's a phony to them, because everybody pretty much is a phony, and they just. They smell it out. But anyway, go ahead.

[David Fleming]

Oh, and these letters. Oh, my God, Bob. These letters, they. If you think, like, people were sarcastic and, like, angry and mean and the political rhetoric is too much, you should read John Adams letters to Thomas Jefferson.

[Advertisement Narrator]

It's.

[David Fleming]

It's incredible.

[Bob Crawford]

It just.

[David Fleming]

It's almost soothing in the fact that you're like, okay, things haven't really changed that much. It was. It was. It's always been awful. But this is John Adams in writing, accusing Thomas Jefferson of plagiarizing his Declaration of Independence. An accusation that if they were younger, would. Could. Could evoke a pistol duel to the death. So it's this incredible moment where you're like, oh, my God, this thing that. In North Carolina, where we always thought was a folk tale, there's.

[Bob Crawford]

There.

[David Fleming]

I think there's some truth to it that Jefferson did steal from. From North Carolina.

[Bob Crawford]

And was this the Mecklenburg Resolves? What was the name of this. Of this. Of these. Of this Mecklenburg document? This is the.

[David Fleming]

Adams is talking about the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay.

[David Fleming]

Which preceded the Resolves. The Resolves were. The Mech deck, as we call it, was. This was really the sort of first. First. The first time that anyone in America or the colonies had formally declared independence from the king in writing. The Resolves are then this list of like, okay, now that we're independent, how will we. How will we conduct ourselves? So the Resolves are sort of a. The Resolves are like a business, like, memo about. Okay, here's how we're going to run our new country.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, thank you for. For clearing that. Clearing that up for me. So. So who wrote. Who wrote the Mecklenburg Declaration of independence

[David Fleming]

on May 20, 1775? And this whole thing started. I should back up. The whole thing started by me becoming. I live in North Carolina. We've been here 25 years. It's. It's our home. We love it here. Our kids grew up here. And one day, waiting for my daughter at her elementary school, she was on the playground. So I was waiting and just sort of, like, biding my time. I looked over at the North Carolina state flag, and at the top of the North Carolina state flag is the date May 20, 1775. And I, as a writer who sort of loves weird, crazy, quirky stories, I was like, well, that's. Why would the Date on North Carolina's flag be 14 months before we even declared independence as a country. And down that rabbit hole I went. And the answer is that on that date in Charlotte, in the courthouse in Charlotte, 27 men who were part of sort of like a local militia safety committee, Inspired by news that had arrived about Lexington and Concord, they became the first. The first people, the first citizens in America to formally declare independence from. From England. And. And so these men were. They were almost to a man, they were Scots, Irish Presbyterians. So what that means is they were. They. They. They liked to fight, they liked to argue, they liked to drink whiskey, and they did not like anyone trying to govern them other than God. And basically, that's what they wrote out in the courthouse on May 20, which is like, we're done. We're free and independent, and if you want to fight, bring it on.

[Bob Crawford]

So the Declaration of Independence is known for its amazing prose and outlining human rights. Did the Mecklenburg version have that kind of sweeping language?

[David Fleming]

So there are. There are, I think, five or six phrases that Thomas Jefferson's own biographer said can't be a coincidence. Either the mech deck stole from Jefferson or Jefferson stole from the mech deck, but somebody stole something.

[Bob Crawford]

But it's impossible that the mech deck stole from Jefferson. Right?

[David Fleming]

Yes, yes.

[Bob Crawford]

Because timing wise.

[David Fleming]

Right, Exactly. But. And I think you are right that there are in a lot of these phrases, we're part of the sort of collective lexicon and sort of the. The language of what. The growing sentiment of independence. And, And. And remember, you know, Jefferson was not. He was not asked to create some original, incredible, soaring document. By the time Jefferson and the committee were asked to draw up the Declaration of Independence, we were at risk of losing the war before we had even formally declared independence. And so even Jefferson scholars say originally the Declaration was a. It was overdue, sort of like paperwork. And Jefferson was told, yeah, to sort of synthesize. To collect the. To collect what we were feeling and thinking and synthesize it and give us something that we can sign quickly. And that's what he did. And he borrowed from. He borrowed heavily from George Mason, from the Virginia. The Virginia Constitution, which was being drafted, and the philosophies of John Locke and the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence. And I say all that to be that. So if Jefferson had ever just admitted, hey, I did what you guys asked me, I sort of borrowed. I cut and pasted. But once the Declaration became famous and Jefferson realized that that was going to be his most. His most remembered accomplishment, he. He then started telling people that. No, no, I. This was all me. I didn't borrow from anyone. This was all me. And that's where he gets in trouble.

[Bob Crawford]

No. No footnoting at that point.

[David Fleming]

Yeah. And yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

No notes section at the end. Right.

[David Fleming]

Even though, I mean, even though, literally George Mason had written Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I mean, the exact week that Jefferson sat down to draw up the Declaration. So, I mean, it's even. And, and I think Jefferson is so revered up until, you know, 20 years ago that you couldn't even argue that he may have plagiarized the Charlotte's document, because no one would even tolerate someone questioning the great Thomas Jefferson.

[Advertisement Narrator]

This is an I Heart Podcast Guaranteed human

[David Fleming]

spring into deals with stay green premium 2 cubic foot mulch 5 bags for $10 plus stay fresh with up to 35% off. Select major appliances and save an additional $100 on select laundry page repairs Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Lowe's we help you save valid 356 mulch offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii.

[Advertisement Narrator]

Seelows.com for more details, visit your nearby Lowe's. Picture this Me, Reese Witherspoon in London, ordering fish and chips so often they might start wrapping me in paper. I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo Autograph Channel, so I earn rewards wherever I book travel five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel and one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad in the hole. Wait, what is a toad in a hole?

[Bob Crawford]

Visit wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply

[Advertisement Narrator]

your social media feed delivers plenty of advice, but it doesn't know you. It doesn't ask questions. It doesn't give physical exams or order tests doctors do. At the American Medical association, we believe the best care starts with a real conversation with someone who understands the science and your unique health. So stay curious, ask questions. But when it's time to make decisions, make them with a doctor. Learn [e-mail] that's amahealthvshipe.org from coast to coast, unlock adventure at Redline Hotels by Sinesta, where restful sleep, friendly service and trusted local knowledge are part of every stay. Red lion makes it easy to feel welcomed, comfortable and connected wherever the road takes you. Whether you're traveling for business or pleasure, you can spend less and make more of every trip. When you sign up for Sonesta Travel Pass, you'll get our best rates instantly. Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

[Bob Crawford]

David, you Subtitled this book One Man's Epic Quest to Uncover the First True Declaration of Independence. Tell me about that epic quest. I mean, you didn't dig anybody up, did you?

[David Fleming]

I came close. I mean, I came close because I was, it's, I mean, you understand this, right? It's you, you go down these rabbit holes, you become obsessed and you've, you know, I was, I'm a huge fan of Sarah Vowell and Alexis Co. Me too. Right?

[Bob Crawford]

Yes, me too. Me too.

[David Fleming]

Yep. And I know you've. I think you've had both of them. I know you've had Alexis on your show.

[Bob Crawford]

Yes. And she's. Yeah, she's amazing. Amazing.

[David Fleming]

And you know, for the longest time I had this idea I was collecting research, but I'm not a historian and I didn't want to write or read a sort of another sort of dry, boring history book. And I just, I didn't know what, how to do it until one day, literally, I was telling the story to an ESPN editor who I really like and respect, and he said, just, just do it in your normal voice. Do it, do it like a poor man's version of Sarah Vowell where it becomes an adventure and you take readers along with you as you're trying to figure out this crazy story. And the minute he said that, a light bulb went off and it just took off from there. And what you understand is with any story like this, the modern day people who are associated with it, they're almost as interesting and weird and quirky and fascinating as, as the people who were a part of the original story in 1775. And so that's what it is. It's basically, it's my national treasure. I guess that makes me Nick Cage, but I'm okay with that.

[Bob Crawford]

So when, when this book came out and historians got their hands on it, I mean, did you get, what did you get? Yeah, I always knew that. Or did you get. How dare you. Like, what, what were some of the responses on both sides of the question? Belief and disbelief. And, you know, like, I noticed historians there, it's a small club and they're, you know, they can be a little, you know how small clubs can be. And so were you accepted or. We like. Tell me a little bit about the reaction to this.

[David Fleming]

Do you mean condescending and dismissive of anyone who doesn't?

[Bob Crawford]

I'm trying to Say it nicely. That's right.

[David Fleming]

Yes. But, you know, luckily, my personality, that just motivates me even more. And I did go into this. I overdid the research and the source notes and all of it, not wanting to give someone like that a quick excuse of like, oh, who is this guy? Who does he think he is? He's not dilettante. Right. And I'm really happy. I mean, I think the thing I'm most proud of is I haven't gotten any of that. People can question the. The. The.

[Bob Crawford]

The.

[David Fleming]

The source notes and the research and the. The where this falls in history and what's accurate and what's not, but no one has questioned the story itself. So I'm really happy about that. In fact, you might be able to help me sort of solve. To me, what is one of the greatest mysteries is that people outside of North Carolina read the book, are immediately all in. Yes, this happened. This document is true. Jefferson probably plagiarized it. I'm all in. It's the people in North Carolina who are way more skeptical and way more just unwilling to sort of, like, to sort of change their mind or accept this. It's been bizarre.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm trying to remember, because I have read about the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence and the Mecklenburg Resolves, and I'm trying to remember where I first came across them, because I came across it in reading, and I wasn't reading North Carolina history. I was reading just another history book. I'm trying to remember, recall where I specifically found it. But as someone who isn't technically a historian, how did you go about, like, what was like, you know, you were covering your bases, Like, I was told by a historian. And, you know, I consider myself now historian because I got my mat. I, like, went back. I got my master's, and, you know, I feel like I can say I'm a historian. I have two history podcasts. You know, I don't know if that qualifies as. As anything, but. But I do feel like I understand the historical method, and I feel pretty safe to. To take that moniker on. But I was told by a real historian. You know, I came at it from a. Like, you know, from the back way, but I was told by, like, a. Just a real traditional historian. He's like, who's supportive of me? He said, you know, you're going to be called a dilettante. You're going to. He's like, get ready for the criticism, because it is coming for you when this book comes out. He's like, it's going to happen because he knows the world of historians better than I do. But how did you go about your research? Like, where. What were some of the things that you began to grab onto and what direction did you kind of move in?

[David Fleming]

I would first say, Bob, I mean, you are a historian, right? Someone who respects history and studies it and goes to school for it. And like, I, I think that's. It doesn't have to be this sort of exclusive club. And I. That to me that's a red flag. And part of the problem with the whole mech deck history is that it has been sort of. We get gatekeeped and gaslit about any new. I mean, and history is a living, breathing thing. As we uncover more evidence and different proof and new perspectives, you've got to be, especially with the way, I mean that's. History is not sort of linear and you've got to be not at all right. It's you. And I think, I think anybody who you got to get in there and sort of question it and do the work and anybody who does that is a historian. And again, immediately, that is what sort of got my back up immediately when it was like, well, these historians are so dismissive of things like eyewitnesses and church records. And it's like, are you really a historian if you, if and. And are your theories, it should all be up for debate. I think it's Alexis Koh, and I even mentioned her book, her George Washington book. In my book, one of her great lines is we should question it all. Question it all. Especially presidents. And I really, it's. I mention it in my book because it's about halfway through my adventure and it was like, it really motivated me to be like, oh, if somebody like her is saying question it all, please. It was like, okay, that's really sort of a call, a call to action.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, you know, I love that John Adams is so much a part of the story calling out Jefferson because a. He said it to his face. Like, he literally said it to his face. Like he wrote him a letter and said it to his face. But John Quincy Adams becomes an incredible Thomas Jefferson critic. He becomes extremely critical of Jefferson. So, so. And I have some letters that, that I found in, in. At the Massachusetts, Massachusetts Historical Society that, that I, that I, you know, you do the microfilm thing and then you take the, the PDF of them. That. It wasn't exactly what I was looking for, you know, in what I was doing, the work I was doing. But I like, but reading, you know, like a lot of it. Like, how critical he became. Like, when John Quincy Adams leaves the presidency, one of the first things he does when he's got. He's out of work is there's a letter that Jefferson wrote critical of John Quincy Adams before he died. Jefferson writes this letter. He's like, very critical of John Quincy Adams. John Quincy Adams spends months responding to that letter and defending himself against all the charges. Like, so he becomes very, very critical of Thomas Jefferson. So my curiosity right now is to go back and look at what John Quincy Adams said about. And I know John Quincy was familiar with his father's letters and writings because another thing he wanted to do post presidency, which he never got to, was write a biography about his father.

[David Fleming]

And don't you think. I mean, John Quincy's opinions of Jefferson had to have been fueled by his. By listening to his dad. And that's why you.

[Bob Crawford]

I will.

[David Fleming]

You've got these letters. When he finally realizes that he. It's a gotcha moment. He's like, I've got you. I know. I know you've been lying and taking credit for the Declaration, even though we. We all did it and it was heavily edited. He's like, I've got you. And it's like. It's almost like he. John Adams, and I think he's in his 80s at this point. He can't contain his glee. He's so excited that he's. It's like a. It's like a. Yeah, it's like a gotcha moment.

[Bob Crawford]

You know, the thing about the Adams, John Quincy and John Adams is there's like. It's like my favorite movie is It's a Wonderful Life. And, you know, Mr. Potter, he's like the ultimate villain in that movie. And there. There is a touch of Mr. Potter in John Quincy Adams and John Adams. And I'm not talking about the greed, not the greed aspect of it at all, but just the curmudgeon. The curmudgeon part of it, if you can take off the curmudgeon, separate the curmudgeon from the greed, the greedy old miser. They are such curmudgeons that, you know, that John Adams found great joy in catching in Jefferson in his. Whatever he did there. So what do you think? Final verdict from you, plagiarized or not?

[David Fleming]

Oh, 100%. 100%. He borrowed. He borrowed from it, and again, he did.

[Bob Crawford]

And that's okay.

[David Fleming]

Yes, yes. It was the fact that he retroactively tried to take credit for it all. But the scene that you get, even the Sort of the Declaration scholars and the Jeffersonian scholars, they create this scene of him in this. On the outskirts of Philly, sitting down to write the Declaration, and he's got all these different documents laid out in front of him, and he's just sort of cutting and pasting and picking and choosing. It was just Jefferson, you talk about John Adams sort of personality. It was just Jefferson couldn't help himself, sort of stealing and taking all the credit. And that's what happened was in. In. In 1819 Virginia and the Jeffersonians, we finally. Everybody sort of realized, oh, this sort of democracy experiment is going to work. It's like nobody could believe it actually was gonna work. And now that it did work, everybody's rushing to take credit for it. And Jefferson and Virginia, they basically were trying to say, we thought it all up. We wrote all the documents, we did all the fighting. We should get all the credit. And that's what happened, was then the representatives from North Carolina said, excuse me, we declared independence 14 months before anybody else, and we want our credit.

[Bob Crawford]

And they're like, north Carolina, you're a backwater. You know, you're like the backwoods of this nation. But that's where the revolution was won.

[David Fleming]

Exactly.

[Bob Crawford]

Was won in North Carolina, people. Okay, there's Yorktown, Virginia, but no Kings Mountain, Guilford Courthouse.

[David Fleming]

Exactly.

[Bob Crawford]

Wanted North Carolina.

[David Fleming]

Exactly, Bob. And this goes back to what you were saying about sort of the whole sort of historian class, right. And the sort of gatekeeping, the. The reaction to even the. The thought that the Mech deck is real has always been by the scholars, has always been, what would those farmers and backwater frontiersmen know about high ideals like independence and freedom and stuff like that? But if you do even just a day's worth of research, the men who actually thought up and drafted the Mech deck, they were all Princeton grads. They were all Princeton graduates. So it's like there's this sort of dismissive, oh, this can't happen. But if you do the work and the research, you realize it's very different from what historians have been telling us.

[Bob Crawford]

Wonderful. Great work. Great work. David Fleming. I can't wait to see what you come up with next. I've been talking with David Fleming, author of the book who's your founding Father? One Man's Epic Quest to uncover the first True Declaration of Independence. David, thank you for joining us today on American History Hotline.

[David Fleming]

My pleasure. And the next time we're in Quincy together, I will say hello. I promise. All right.

[Bob Crawford]

You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of iHeart podcasts and Scrappers Track Productions. The show's executive producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan Runtal and Jason English. Original music composed by me, Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is americanhistoryhotlinemail.com if you like the show, please tell your friends and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me up on social media to ask a history question or to let me know what you think of the show. You can find me at bobcrawford Base. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

[David Fleming]

I'm U.S. transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. The sound of a Seatbelt it's one of the most important sounds in our car.

[Bob Crawford]

It means everyone is ready and everyone is safe.

[David Fleming]

The more our kids see us put on our seatbelts, the more natural it is for them to put theirs on too. Make it a priority. Buckle up every time.

[Bob Crawford]

Hear the sound. Make it a habit Paid for by

[David Fleming]

NHTSA

[Bob Crawford]

if you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H Vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Advertisement Narrator]

Get a full body reset anywhere you go with Dr. Teal's magnesium spray. It's a concentrated magnesium blend of pure Epsom and Dead Sea salts, all bundled up in a convenient on the go bottle. A few quick sprays will relax your body and mind and keep you feeling recharged all day long. It's wellness you can feel, and you can find it in your local bath aisle. Dr. Teals Yep, you needed that. Picture this me, Reese Witherspoon in London ordering fish and chips so often they might start wrapping me in paper. I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo Autograph Journey card, so I earn rewards wherever I book travel five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel and one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad in the hole. Wait, what is a toad in a hole?

[Bob Crawford]

Visit wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply.

[Advertisement Narrator]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.