American History Hotline – "From the Files of the CIA"

Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: Brittany Butler, Former CIA Targeting Officer & Author
Date: August 29, 2025

Overview

This episode delves into the shadowy world of espionage as host Bob Crawford welcomes former CIA targeting officer Brittany Butler to address a listener question: Who was the most successful or damaging spy in United States history? The discussion covers Butler’s path to the CIA, the realities of intelligence work versus its Hollywood portrayals, notorious spies and traitors, the psychology and motivations behind espionage, and how skills learned at the CIA translate to everyday civilian life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brittany Butler’s Path to the CIA

• Recruitment Story (02:05):

  • Butler interned at the US Embassy in Paris, where her knowledge of Arabic naming conventions led her to identify a terror suspect—a move that caught the attention of undercover CIA officers at the embassy, who encouraged her to apply.
  • “My bosses at the American Embassy were undercover CIA officers. And they suggested to me, hey, like, have you ever thought about applying at the CIA?” – Brittany Butler (02:23)

• Role Clarification (03:31):

  • Case Officer: Responsible for recruiting and “handling” assets (spies).
  • Targeting Officer: Identifies potential sources for recruitment and also supports military targeting operations.

2. The Reality of Intelligence Work

• Teamwork vs. Hollywood Solo Act (05:20):
  • Contrary to popular media, real CIA operations are highly collaborative, involving specialists from multiple agencies—NSA, NGA, military, and more.
  • “It's a lot of people all working together to achieve a goal rather than just one dude or one girl acting like James Bond.” – Brittany Butler (07:07)

3. Who Was the Most Damaging Spy in U.S. History?

• Information Secrecy (07:10):

  • The identities of the most successful CIA assets are classified. Even Butler, with years at the Agency, isn’t privy to such info.

• Notorious Spies Against the U.S. (07:42):

  • Julius and Ethel Rosenberg: Passed nuclear secrets, accelerating the Soviet atomic program and shifting the Cold War balance.
  • Aldrich Ames: A high-level CIA officer who exposed over 100 CIA operations and caused the deaths of at least 10 U.S. assets (agents working for the US in Russia).
    • “He was a bad dude.” – Brittany Butler (08:30)
  • Robert Hanssen: FBI counterintelligence agent who sold secrets to the Soviets for over 20 years, deeply damaging U.S. security through compromised nuclear strategies and double agent exposure.

4. How Do Spies Infiltrate?

• Insider Access (12:32):

  • Spies like Hanssen and Ames had access due to their positions—Hanssen’s irony: “part of his job, ironically, as a counterintelligence agent, is to root out the double agents.” – Brittany Butler (12:50)

• Motivations for Betrayal (12:55):

  • Predominantly money, but also ideology or personal grievances.
  • “Most of these guys, their motivation is money. ...and then also ideology...They want to feel like their work is important again.” – Brittany Butler (13:01)

• Recruitment Tactics (13:25):

  • CIA officers seek to align an asset’s goals with the agency’s needs, sometimes addressing personal issues (e.g., health care for a loved one).

5. Life After the CIA: Skills That Stick

• Transition to Civilian Life (15:43):

  • Butler co-hosts a podcast (“Spy Girls”) discussing how intelligence skills inform her life as a mother and civilian.
  • Reading people is key: “I have a teenager, so my kid... I baselined him...I know when he's telling the truth and when he's not.” – Brittany Butler (16:24)

• Baselining Explained (17:02):

  • Technique from polygraphing—establishes a subject’s normal truth-telling behavior before probing for deception.
  • “That's when they essentially baseline you.” – Brittany Butler (17:06)
  • Physical cues like rubbing eyes can indicate distress or potential deception.

• Elicitation Tactics at Home (18:22):

  • Butler uses open-ended, emotionally attuned questions with her children, borrowed from interrogation techniques, to encourage honesty.

6. The CIA in the Cold War

• Protection Through Compartmentalization (19:35):
  • Butler credits rigorous compartmentalization — only granting access to those with a "need to know" — with safeguarding sensitive programs, even as spies like the Rosenbergs and Hanssen penetrated U.S. intelligence.
  • “It’s a misconception that I have access to everything… But it really is dependent upon what your job is at CIA.” – Brittany Butler (20:11)

7. The Fate of Captured Spies

• Diplomatic Immunity vs. Real Danger (20:57):
  • Results vary: with diplomatic immunity, expulsion is likely; in places like Russia or China, detention, torture, or worse can occur.
  • “It's a case by case situation on if you get tortured or there have obviously been cases where CIA officers have been killed.” – Brittany Butler (21:36)

8. The Timeless Need for Espionage

• Endless Espionage (21:56):
  • “If you go all the way back to like the Roman Empire, there's always been espionage. There's always a need to gather information...” – Brittany Butler (21:56)
  • The CIA’s mission, such as compiling the President’s Daily Brief, ensures informed decision making—a critical, unending requirement.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Butler on how she was recruited:
  “My bosses at the American Embassy were undercover CIA officers. And they suggested to me, hey, like, have you ever thought about applying at the CIA?” (02:23)

• Mythbusting the spy stereotype:
  “It’s a lot of people all working together to achieve a goal rather than just one dude or one girl acting like James Bond.” (07:07)

• On why people spy against their own country:
  “Most of these guys, their motivation is money...and then also ideology.” (13:01)

• On reading people and “baselining:”
  “You first need to baseline them to understand what their mannerisms are when they're telling the truth and how to differentiate when they're telling the truth from a lie.” (16:34)

• The enduring need for spies:
  “There's always a need to gather information, to collect it, to use it, to make informed decisions.” (21:57)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Brittany Butler’s recruitment story: 02:05–03:22
• Explaining case officers and targeting officers: 03:23–05:20
• Hollywood vs. real-life intelligence work: 05:20–07:10
• Who was the most damaging spy? Notorious betrayals: 07:42–09:37
• Spy infiltration and motivations: 12:11–14:52
• CIA transition to civilian life; “Spy Girls” podcast: 15:43–16:34
• Baselining and parenting tips: 17:02–19:22
• Cold War CIA successes, compartmentalization: 19:35–20:55
• Captured spies’ fate: 20:57–21:46
• The timelessness of espionage: 21:56–22:52

Takeaway

Brittany Butler pulls back the curtain on a world built on secrecy, explaining how espionage, far from being the realm of romantic lone wolves, is painstaking, collaborative, and very human work—driven by motivations that range from money to ideology, and dependent upon relationships, trust, and rigorous compartmentalization. The episode captures how the experience of living a spy’s life colors every aspect of civilian existence, and why, throughout history, spies have always been with us—and always will be.