Episode Title Redacted: From the Files of the CIA

Summary

American History Hotline – "From the Files of the CIA"

Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: Brittany Butler, Former CIA Targeting Officer & Author
Date: August 29, 2025

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Overview

This episode delves into the shadowy world of espionage as host Bob Crawford welcomes former CIA targeting officer Brittany Butler to address a listener question: Who was the most successful or damaging spy in United States history? The discussion covers Butler’s path to the CIA, the realities of intelligence work versus its Hollywood portrayals, notorious spies and traitors, the psychology and motivations behind espionage, and how skills learned at the CIA translate to everyday civilian life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brittany Butler’s Path to the CIA

• Recruitment Story (02:05):

  • Butler interned at the US Embassy in Paris, where her knowledge of Arabic naming conventions led her to identify a terror suspect—a move that caught the attention of undercover CIA officers at the embassy, who encouraged her to apply.
  • “My bosses at the American Embassy were undercover CIA officers. And they suggested to me, hey, like, have you ever thought about applying at the CIA?” – Brittany Butler (02:23)

• Role Clarification (03:31):

  • Case Officer: Responsible for recruiting and “handling” assets (spies).
  • Targeting Officer: Identifies potential sources for recruitment and also supports military targeting operations.

2. The Reality of Intelligence Work

• Teamwork vs. Hollywood Solo Act (05:20):
  • Contrary to popular media, real CIA operations are highly collaborative, involving specialists from multiple agencies—NSA, NGA, military, and more.
  • “It's a lot of people all working together to achieve a goal rather than just one dude or one girl acting like James Bond.” – Brittany Butler (07:07)

3. Who Was the Most Damaging Spy in U.S. History?

• Information Secrecy (07:10):

  • The identities of the most successful CIA assets are classified. Even Butler, with years at the Agency, isn’t privy to such info.

• Notorious Spies Against the U.S. (07:42):

  • Julius and Ethel Rosenberg: Passed nuclear secrets, accelerating the Soviet atomic program and shifting the Cold War balance.
  • Aldrich Ames: A high-level CIA officer who exposed over 100 CIA operations and caused the deaths of at least 10 U.S. assets (agents working for the US in Russia).
    • “He was a bad dude.” – Brittany Butler (08:30)
  • Robert Hanssen: FBI counterintelligence agent who sold secrets to the Soviets for over 20 years, deeply damaging U.S. security through compromised nuclear strategies and double agent exposure.

4. How Do Spies Infiltrate?

• Insider Access (12:32):

  • Spies like Hanssen and Ames had access due to their positions—Hanssen’s irony: “part of his job, ironically, as a counterintelligence agent, is to root out the double agents.” – Brittany Butler (12:50)

• Motivations for Betrayal (12:55):

  • Predominantly money, but also ideology or personal grievances.
  • “Most of these guys, their motivation is money. ...and then also ideology...They want to feel like their work is important again.” – Brittany Butler (13:01)

• Recruitment Tactics (13:25):

  • CIA officers seek to align an asset’s goals with the agency’s needs, sometimes addressing personal issues (e.g., health care for a loved one).

5. Life After the CIA: Skills That Stick

• Transition to Civilian Life (15:43):

  • Butler co-hosts a podcast (“Spy Girls”) discussing how intelligence skills inform her life as a mother and civilian.
  • Reading people is key: “I have a teenager, so my kid... I baselined him...I know when he's telling the truth and when he's not.” – Brittany Butler (16:24)

• Baselining Explained (17:02):

  • Technique from polygraphing—establishes a subject’s normal truth-telling behavior before probing for deception.
  • “That's when they essentially baseline you.” – Brittany Butler (17:06)
  • Physical cues like rubbing eyes can indicate distress or potential deception.

• Elicitation Tactics at Home (18:22):

  • Butler uses open-ended, emotionally attuned questions with her children, borrowed from interrogation techniques, to encourage honesty.

6. The CIA in the Cold War

• Protection Through Compartmentalization (19:35):
  • Butler credits rigorous compartmentalization — only granting access to those with a "need to know" — with safeguarding sensitive programs, even as spies like the Rosenbergs and Hanssen penetrated U.S. intelligence.
  • “It’s a misconception that I have access to everything… But it really is dependent upon what your job is at CIA.” – Brittany Butler (20:11)

7. The Fate of Captured Spies

• Diplomatic Immunity vs. Real Danger (20:57):
  • Results vary: with diplomatic immunity, expulsion is likely; in places like Russia or China, detention, torture, or worse can occur.
  • “It's a case by case situation on if you get tortured or there have obviously been cases where CIA officers have been killed.” – Brittany Butler (21:36)

8. The Timeless Need for Espionage

• Endless Espionage (21:56):
  • “If you go all the way back to like the Roman Empire, there's always been espionage. There's always a need to gather information...” – Brittany Butler (21:56)
  • The CIA’s mission, such as compiling the President’s Daily Brief, ensures informed decision making—a critical, unending requirement.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Butler on how she was recruited:
  “My bosses at the American Embassy were undercover CIA officers. And they suggested to me, hey, like, have you ever thought about applying at the CIA?” (02:23)

• Mythbusting the spy stereotype:
  “It’s a lot of people all working together to achieve a goal rather than just one dude or one girl acting like James Bond.” (07:07)

• On why people spy against their own country:
  “Most of these guys, their motivation is money...and then also ideology.” (13:01)

• On reading people and “baselining:”
  “You first need to baseline them to understand what their mannerisms are when they're telling the truth and how to differentiate when they're telling the truth from a lie.” (16:34)

• The enduring need for spies:
  “There's always a need to gather information, to collect it, to use it, to make informed decisions.” (21:57)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Brittany Butler’s recruitment story: 02:05–03:22
• Explaining case officers and targeting officers: 03:23–05:20
• Hollywood vs. real-life intelligence work: 05:20–07:10
• Who was the most damaging spy? Notorious betrayals: 07:42–09:37
• Spy infiltration and motivations: 12:11–14:52
• CIA transition to civilian life; “Spy Girls” podcast: 15:43–16:34
• Baselining and parenting tips: 17:02–19:22
• Cold War CIA successes, compartmentalization: 19:35–20:55
• Captured spies’ fate: 20:57–21:46
• The timelessness of espionage: 21:56–22:52

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Takeaway

Brittany Butler pulls back the curtain on a world built on secrecy, explaining how espionage, far from being the realm of romantic lone wolves, is painstaking, collaborative, and very human work—driven by motivations that range from money to ideology, and dependent upon relationships, trust, and rigorous compartmentalization. The episode captures how the experience of living a spy’s life colors every aspect of civilian existence, and why, throughout history, spies have always been with us—and always will be.

Transcript

[Brittany Butler]

Foreign.

[Bob Crawford]

You've reached American History Hotline. You ask the questions, we get the answers. Leave a message. Hey there, American History Hotliners. Your host, Bob Crawford here. Happy to be joining you again for another episode of American History Hotline. You're the ones with the questions. I'm a guy trying to get you some answers. And keep those questions coming. The best way to get us a question is to record a video or a voice memo on your phone and email it to AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com that's AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com okay, now to today's question. This one comes from Ellen in Monterey. Who was the most successful damaging spy in in United States history? This is a great question because the CIA. Everything about it is kind of shrouded in mystery, right? That's the whole point. And so we don't hear, you know, occasionally you hear about a great CIA success, but I'm sure there's a lot we don't know about. And I bet there's a lot of counter spies that we never hear about. So who could help me answer this question? Well, I think we found the perfect person. She is a former CIA agent who spent nine years as a targeting officer with the CIA's Directorate of Operations, Counterterrorism Center. Brittany Butler. Ms. Butler is also the author of the Syndicate Spy, A Juliet Arroway Novel. Brittany, thank you for joining me today.

[Brittany Butler]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Bob Crawford]

Before we get to our listener's question, I have to ask, how did you become a CIA agent? I mean, what is the process? Did you, like, apply for the job or were you recruited?

[Brittany Butler]

Yes, that's a great question. So I was recruited out of college. My junior year of college, I did an internship out at the American Embassy in Paris, France. And there I was involved in some passport fraud cases. You know, part of our job at the consulate section is to both interview candidates for visas and then also to process them and passports and things like that. And I came across an individual who should not be trying to get into the country. That was. And because of my knowledge of Arabic naming conventions, I pinpointed him as a terrorist trying to get into the country. I didn't know it at the time, but my bosses at the American Embassy were undercover CIA officers. And they suggested to me, hey, like, have you ever thought about applying at the CIA? And I was like, no, absolutely not. But they encouraged me to do that and I did. And I was recruited to be a case officer. And a case officer is the officer at the CIA who was in charge of recruiting and handling our spies overseas. And I transitioned kind of from that position to the targeting officer position, which is. I can go into that more detail if you'd like.

[Bob Crawford]

But I want to ask. You said handling the spy.

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

What does it mean to handle a spy?

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, so we provide something called requirements for our spy spies. Right. Our assets, we all call, we don't really call them spies, we call them assets at the CIA. And requirements are like questions, like questions that our policymakers have, questions that we might have about, you know, a particular threat. Those are the requirements that we send to our officers overseas. The case officers that handle the spies handle the assets and they basically just ask them these questions or they task them to acquire the information. So that's kind of the handling of the spy on a day to day basis. Also like handling a spy. So that's more of like the work aspect. The nitty gritty kind of administrative stuff is also what we call like handling a spy. So that's, you know, paying the spy, assessing their motivations, working with them to ensure their longevity, to make sure that they're being safe in terms of, you know, their collection of the information that we're tasking them with. So that's kind of the handling part.

[Bob Crawford]

And then a targeting agent.

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, so targeting officer is someone that helps to target for potential recruitment operations. So helping to devise who that next potential source would be. And along with that comes identifying their weaknesses, ways that we can potentially manipulate them into working for the US and then also targeting for in support of our drone program or high value target operations in which we are targeting terrorists in the war zones. So targeting officer kind of does both jobs.

[Bob Crawford]

You know, I think television and movies gives us this one idea about how the CIA works. Like there's a solo spy who has infiltrated a terrorist cell. It's pretty much up to him or her alone to bring down the whole organization. How does it really work?

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, so it's more, it's a lot of very committed people with their own specialties all working together. So you've got somebody from nga, the National Geospatial Agency, you've got someone from nsa. The more of like the sigint focused signals intercepts, focused individuals who, their specialty is to, you know, intercept communications between sources or foreign policy people. And they all kind of work together to work on a particular operation. So everybody has their own specialty at the CIA. Our specialty is human. So, so what we're bringing to the table are Their human sources there are reporting on, you know, a foreign leader or reporting on a terrorist organization, the NSA component, they're listening in on the conversations between those individuals. And then you've got NGA who's doing the analysis of what the, what does the geospatial landscape look like at a particular location, whether that be a foreign embassy or a terrorist bed down location, all those components kind of working together. Then of course there's the action elements, which is the military, the Special Activities Division, guys who are actually doing the work of breaking down the doors and going after the targets. So yeah, it's a lot of people all working together to achieve a goal rather than just one dude or one girl acting like James Bond.

[Bob Crawford]

So our question is, who is the most successful spy? So given the secrecy surrounding the CIA, are we even allowed to know who that person is?

[Brittany Butler]

No. The most successful spy that the CIA has recruited, sure.

[Bob Crawford]

I think what Ellen is asking is both, right, who was the most successful spy that the United States ever had and then who was the most successful spy on. Against the United States?

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, so I honestly do not know who the most successful spy is that the CIA has ever recruited. And I don't think that that information is unclassified. I think it's probably like only a select few people know that as far as the most successful damaging spy in the United States history, the, the most successful foreign spy, I would say is probably Julius or Ethel Rosenberg. They were American citizens that spied for the Soviet Union. They passed nuclear weapons secrets from the Manhattan Project. And their espionage really helped to accelerate the Soviet atomic bomb program. And that kind of shifted the balance of power during the Cold War. So I would say that they are some of the most damaging spies in US History. The at probably like one of the, the most famous domestic spies is Aldrich Ames. He was a CIA officer who actually spied for the KGB from 1985 until his arrest in 1994. He exposed, I think it was like 100 CIA operations and led to the deaths of, gosh, 10 U.S. intelligence assets. So what that means is he divulged the identity of who we were working with in Russia to collect information on the Soviets. And he was a bad dude. Another guy that you might be interested in learning about is Robert Hansen. He was a FBI counterintelligence agent and he also spied for the Soviets from 1979 to 2001. So he, he did that for quite a long time. And he divulged details about U.S. nuclear strategies, counterintelligence operations, the identity of double agents. He did a lot of damage.

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[Bob Crawford]

How did these spies, I mean, Robert Hanson was a double agent, right? I mean, so. But how did they infiltrate? I mean, I mean, how do you pull that off to infiltrate the United States Intelligence Agency that deeply?

[Brittany Butler]

So in the case of Robert Hanssen, he was an FBI counterintelligence agent, right? So he had access to the highest levels of classified information. So he's part of his job, ironically, as a counterintelligence agent, is to root out the double agents.

[Bob Crawford]

And I guess, Brittany starting, I guess I'm asking how was he turned?

[Brittany Butler]

I don't know. Well, so I think only the Soviets probably know that because they're the ones who recruited him. So I. Most of these guys, their motivation is money. So. So, like in the case of Aldrich Ames, he acquired, I think it was like, two and a half million dollars from the Soviets. And so he was primarily motivated by money. And I, you know, it. It really comes down, I think, probably to money and then also ideology. You know, it might be that these guys are. They've been in the bureaucracy for too long. They're discouraged with their careers, aren't going anywhere. They want to feel like their work is important again. Whenever I know, all I can speak to is how the CIA does it. Not really have the KGB or the Russians do it. And it's more about, like, trying to make them see that their goals align with yours. So my specialty, having worked the CIA, was counterterrorism operations. And so that was a matter of working with terrorists who I could help align what they wanted with what we wanted. So, like in Afghanistan, for example, or Iraq, they wanted a more peaceful, more stable government, right? And so if we could meet each other on that common goal, we could achieve, you know, great things together. So. And then obviously, like, the money helped or if they had a particular health issue, let's say, like one guy we worked with, you know, his wife couldn't get pregnant, and so we were able to set him up with fertility treatments in a different country. And that's how we got him to kind of, you know, work with us. So it's. It depends on each agent. I don't know what the specific things were that the Russians did to. To turn these agents, but I was. I would assume it had something to do with ideology, money, things like that.

[Bob Crawford]

This is American history hotline. I'm your Host Bob Crawford. Today my guest is a former CIA agen and the author of the Syndicate Spy, Brittany Butler. We're talking about who were the most successful and most damaging spies in United States history. What is it like with all that you've experienced and all the knowledge you have from your work with the CIA, at the CIA, to be in civilian life and going to the grocery store and taking your kids to school and interacting with teachers and doctors and people on the street and like how, how does, how does your CIA experience kind of filter into your, the way you experience daily life? I mean, yeah, you have to be.

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Good at reading people, right?

[Brittany Butler]

Right. Yes, absolutely. So this is something that I actually talk about a lot on my podcast Spy Girls. So me and another woman who used to work at the CIA, Tracy Walder, she's actually, she's also a former FBI special agent. Her and I have transitioned obviously to civilian life and we're both mothers and we talk about on the podcast just like what that transition has been like for us and how we apply some of those capabilities and those skills to our current life. I have a teenager, so my kid.

[Bob Crawford]

That was my next question.

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, yeah. So my kids range from 13 all the way down to 4. I have all boys.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, I have a 13 year old son. You got to give me some tips here.

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I. So my big thing is baselining. So in order to tell whether or not someone is lying, you first need to baseline them to understand what their mannerisms are when they're telling the truth and how to differentiate when they're telling the truth from a lie. So my son, obviously I know him really well, so I baselined him and I know when he's telling the truth and when he's not.

[Bob Crawford]

And okay, what does it mean to baseline somebody?

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, so baseline. So whenever, like you ask that. So for example, in the polygraph, so whenever you get your security clearance at the CIA you have to undergo a polygraph. And at the polygraph one of the first questions they ask you once you're hooked up to the machine and is your birth date, where you're born, who your parents are, stuff that they know you're going to tell the truth on. And that's when they essentially baseline you. They figure out these are your mannerisms when you're telling the truth and then they start to ask you questions and if your, if your body language says something different than what's coming out of your mouth. So you're looking at like non verbal cues, that's an indication that you could be lying. So one of the things, for example, that we've. We've noticed throughout, you know, our work is like, rubbing your eyes, actually. So, like, if someone is not telling the truth, the. Yeah, the rubbing. So think about, like, a baby crying, right? Something that they do is they rub their eyes. And it's some. It's like a coping mechanism to soothe yourself. And it turns out adults use this same kind of coping mechanism.

[Bob Crawford]

I do this all the time.

[Brittany Butler]

Okay, well, who knows if you're.

[Bob Crawford]

Because I'm just so stressed out.

[Brittany Butler]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that definitely could. Well, it's an indication, not necessarily if you're lying, but that you're in distress. And so you want to pay attention to that. And, like, if you're trying to get, let's say, your teenager to, like, tell you the truth. What. How I kind of start things if, you know, you can't start out just asking them questions. Did you do this? Were you there? And blah, blah, blah. You have to, like, approach it kind of a roundabout way. I would advise by saying stuff like, so what's most concerning to you today? What's got you upset right now, buddy? Like what? And you just try to get them to start admitting things and just get them talking. And I think that was a tactic I kind of learned in debriefing and elicitation training, was just, how do I get my source? How do I get my detainee talking? And that's definitely something I have used on my teenager.

[Bob Crawford]

Brittany, For a historian, it's hard to think about the CIA and not think about the Cold War. Can you talk about some of the great successes of the CIA during the Cold War?

[Brittany Butler]

So I think that probably the fact that we were able to safeguard our nuclear program during those. That time, even though we had spies like these Soviet spies like Julius Anethel Rosenberg and Aldrich James Robert Hansen, the fact that we were able to safeguard our program, I think is a pretty. I think is pretty awesome. A lot of that comes down to compartmentalization. So at the CIA, you don't have access to information unless there's an absolute necessity. So just because I worked at the CIA, I think it's a misconception that I have access to everything that I know what's going on in China or Russia or whatever. But it really is dependent upon what your job is at CIA. So if I'm working, like, for example, I worked in the CIA's Counterterrorism center and Pakistan, Afghanistan division, there would be no reason why I would need to know what was going on with Russia operations. So I think going back to the Cold War, it's like one of those things where they things were highly compartmentalized. And so people who did not have a, what we call like a need to know at the CIA did not have access to the information. And so I think that limited the ability for our clandestine operations to be compromised because we kept that information so tightly concealed.

[Bob Crawford]

What happens when a spy is captured.

[Brittany Butler]

It depends on the country. So they sometimes whenever we're operating under diplomatic immunity. So, like if you're working undercover, but you are working under the COVID of the State Department, you will have a diplomatic passport, you'll have diplomatic immunity. And the worst that can happen is you're just sent back to your, to the United States, back to your country. The are obviously other situations where that is not the case, like in Russia or China, where they will detain you and it's a case by case situation on if you get tortured or there have obviously been cases where CIA officers have been killed. So, yeah, it definitely depends on the situation.

[Bob Crawford]

Brittany, can you envision a world, a future world, where there are no spies, or do you think there will always be a need for espionage?

[Brittany Butler]

Well, I think if you, I mean, if you go all the way back to like the Roman Empire, there's always been espionage. There's always a need to gather information, to collect it, to use it, to make informed decisions. I think especially whenever it comes to foreign policy, it's absolutely critical to be able to collect information and carry that kind of back to policymakers. I mean, that's One of the CIA's main functions is to develop a product called the Presidential Daily Brief, and that is compiled by basically gathering together all of our intelligence from all over the world and highlighting the most important bits for our senior policymakers to make informed decisions. So I don't think you want to start making decisions without that information. They're not going to be very informed. So, yeah, I do think there'll always be a need for it.

[Bob Crawford]

Brittany Butler, former CIA agent and author. Her most recent book is the Syndicate Spy and I have it on Good Information. There's another book coming, so look forward to that. Brittany, thank you for joining us today on American History Hotline.

[Brittany Butler]

Of course. Thank you so much for having me.

[Bob Crawford]

You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of Iheart podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from Iheart are Jordan Runtal and Jason English. Original music composed by me, Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is americanhistoryhotlinemail.com if you like the show, please tell your friends and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me up on social media to ask a history question or to let me know what you think of the show. You can find me at bobcrawford Bass thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

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