How Did Hollywood Survive the Great Depression?

Summary

---

American History Hotline (iHeartPodcasts)

Episode: How Did Hollywood Survive the Great Depression?

Date: March 25, 2026
Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: Mark Ellis (Comedian, Rotten Tomatoes Correspondent)

---

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Bob Crawford welcomes Mark Ellis to answer a listener question: How did Hollywood survive during the Great Depression, and how did ordinary Americans afford movies amid widespread hardship? The episode explores the dramatic shifts in the industry’s technology, business structures, and content, drawing out the era’s resilience, adaptability, and the enduring need for escapism during tough times. The pair also reflect on the evolution of the studio system, audience habits, the emergence of unions, and how the Depression catalyzed both creativity and structural change in American film. The conversation is lively, balancing historical analysis with pop-culture references and personal anecdotes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Hollywood’s Response to the Great Depression

Technological Innovation and Transition to Sound

• Transition from silent films to "talkies" was already underway as the Depression began; this was as significant as the economic crisis itself ([02:50]).
• Studios were dealing with “their own reckoning, nothing to do with the economics of the United States or the world. They were figuring out, oh man, this sound thing is really going to catch on.” — Mark Ellis ([02:54])
• Technological progress sometimes seemed at odds with wider economic collapse; sound transformed the industry’s possibilities and requirements.

The End of Monopolies

• “The Great Depression was the seed that would eventually become the plant that destroyed the monopolies that the studios had in Hollywood.” — Mark Ellis ([03:52])
• Consolidation and vertical integration dominated: studios controlled production, distribution, and exhibition, but this would eventually be broken up in the 1940s.

---

Movie Content and Audience Tastes

Types of Films that Flourished

• Early 1930s: influx of musicals thanks to sound; quickly led to audience fatigue ([04:18]).
• “It wasn’t just the sound, it wasn’t just the Depression, it wasn’t just the times we live in... the natural evolution of cinema happened to hit in the 30s, where now audiences showing up to a movie house had a lot of different tastes satisfied.” — Mark Ellis ([04:57])
• Universal found success with horror (Dracula, Frankenstein).
• RKO released King Kong (1933).
• Late 1930s: Big-budget escapism like The Wizard of Oz and Gone with the Wind.

Audiences Spoke with Their Wallets

• “We also want to see other types of movies. We like being scared, we like laughing, we like being transported to a different time and place.” — Mark Ellis ([05:42])

---

Comparison to Later Media Booms

• Mark compares the cinematic experimentation with the early days of MTV: “You could throw anything at... just to see what would work... It sounds like you’re telling me that’s kind of what filmmakers were doing with sound.” — Bob Crawford ([05:50])
• “It spices it up.... Busby Berkeley comes along and has these incredible things that are completely transformative to that genre.” — Mark Ellis ([06:47])

---

How Americans Afforded Movies During the Depression

Affordable Escapism and Innovation in Theaters

• Moviegoing remained a culturally vital escape, with theaters adopting promotions like double features, raffles, and penny shows ([08:07]).
• “This was the beginning of promotions... they had penny theaters in small towns, literally cost that much to go see a movie... Sometimes you would go to a movie and you just not only wanted to see a movie, but you also wanted to know what’s going on in the world.” — Mark Ellis ([08:36])
• Newsreels and variety programs made moviegoing a fuller, information-rich experience.
• Theaters were “the place to go to get away from your troubles and your worries.” — Mark Ellis ([09:21])

---

The Studio System and Labor

Structure and Control

• Studios operated like an “in-house seven layer burrito—production, distribution, they even owned the theaters.” — Mark Ellis ([10:25])
• Star contracts and labor practices were “very studio friendly. It was not necessarily person friendly.” ([10:53])

Rise of Labor Organizations

• The New Deal encouraged labor organization in Hollywood, paving the way for the Screen Actors Guild and other unions ([11:15]).
• The “Poverty Row” studios served as precursors to independent film production; big-name stars occasionally worked there for creative opportunities ([11:44]).

---

Was the Depression Hollywood’s Golden Age?

• With no TV or streaming at home, “it was the only game in town” to be transported to another world ([18:36]).
• “It’s not just being transported... It’s the fact that you’re doing it with a community of folks, most of whom are strangers to you, but you’re sitting in a dark room and you’re all in this together.” — Mark Ellis ([18:56])

---

Genres and Key Film Movements

Gangster Films and Genre Evolution

• The gangster film golden age was still ahead, but actors like James Cagney started to emerge as versatile stars ([19:55], [20:00]).
• Film noir and thrillers, such as Double Indemnity, marked an era of experimentation: “It’s fun to watch filmmakers back then experiment with all these different techniques and genres.” — Mark Ellis ([20:52])

On Double Indemnity and Classic Film History

• “What I love about Double Indemnity is that so many people think that it’s Hitchcock and it’s not.” — Mark Ellis ([21:20])
• Plaudits from Hitchcock to director Billy Wilder underlined the creative ferment of the era ([21:36]).

---

Morale and Censorship

Film as a Tool for National Morale

• Hollywood self-promoted its role: “No Medium has contributed more greatly than the film industry to the maintenance of the national morale during... political turmoil...” — industry quote ([23:18])
• Mark: “It’s serving multiple purposes... for studios, this was important because it kind of let the government know, hey, we’re doing okay with our system here. We don’t really want you interfering.” ([23:47])
• Enforcement of the Hays Code was partly a preemptive move to stave off government intervention ([24:33]).

---

Film Ratings and Oversight

• The Hays Code (self-censorship for “morality”) became more strictly enforced in the 1930s ([25:59]).
• Studios eventually accepted centralized oversight, although they “resisted the idea for obvious reasons” ([26:12]).

---

The Value of Escapism vs. “Distraction”

• Mark argues for balance: “It’s taking a break from everything else you’re doing. And you should do it every so often because it gives you freshness when you come back to the real problems that you do have to solve in your life.” ([27:12])
• “You go in and you see a movie and you’re walking out with a slightly different take on the world.” — Mark Ellis ([27:52])
• The need for art and storytelling is ongoing, not just a reaction to bad times.

---

Modern Parallels – AI and the Future of Hollywood

• Mark’s outlook on AI and consolidation is cautious: “With AI I have no idea. I just know that it’s not telling anything original. If you want original voices, then that’s where you support and you champion filmmakers coming up right now.” ([29:29])
• Community experience and live art retain their power: “I don’t think you’re ever going to lose movie theaters because... being around people in a theater, having that shared sort of community aspect, is so important to us.” — Mark Ellis ([30:17])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You had so many more avenues to tell your story... It’s cyclical—studios figuring out what audiences want and how much of that product they want.” — Mark Ellis ([06:24])
• “When there’s dark times in your real world... we do want to escape.” — Mark Ellis ([09:03])
• “The movies aren’t going away... It’s nice to get your brain on a different track for a little while. Just don’t keep it there all day.” — Mark Ellis ([27:12])
• “We need humans making art.” — Bob Crawford ([31:40])
• “I would much rather see a Van Halen cover band than... some AI generated thing of Eddie Van Halen hanging out with Jimi Hendrix. I don’t need that.” — Mark Ellis ([31:40])

---

Topic Timestamps

• Listener Question & Show Context: 02:04
• Hollywood’s Transition to Sound: 02:50
• Types of Films During the Depression: 04:06 – 05:49
• Moviegoing Affordability & Theater Strategies: 08:07 – 09:21
• Studio System & Labor Unions: 10:20 – 12:31
• Poverty Row & Independent Film: 12:31 – 13:22
• Theaters as Community Escapes: 18:36 – 19:48
• Gangster Films & Noir/Thriller Evolution: 19:55 – 21:36
• Morale, Censorship, and the Hays Code: 23:18 – 24:33
• Rise of Ratings and Oversight: 25:37 – 26:33
• Debate Over Escapism vs. Seriousness: 26:33 – 28:52
• The Future: AI, Streaming & Originality: 28:53 – 31:40

---

Conclusion

This episode captures the dynamism, complexity, and resilience of Hollywood during its most challenging era. It contextualizes the Depression not as a time of stagnation, but as a catalyst for artistic innovation, new business models, and enduring social value. The hosts stress both the invaluable escapism cinema has provided and the importance of supporting human creativity in the face of rapid technological change. The spirit of community—then and now—is underscored as the true secret to the survival and vibrancy of American film.

---

Transcript

[Bob Crawford]

Well, the question is, would you rather see a Van Halen cover band or David Lee Roth on his most recent tour?

[Mark Ellis]

Give me dlr, baby.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm with you. You've reached American History Hotline. You ask the questions, we get the answers. Leave a message. Hey, there, American History Hotliners. Bob Crawford here. Thrilled to be joining you again for another episode of of American History Hotline. It's the show where you ask the questions. And the best way to get us a question is to record a video or a voice memo on your phone and email it to where else? Americanhistoryhotlinemail.com. that's Americanhistoryhotlinemail.com. okay, today's question is all about Hollywood. And when the topic is anything related to film, I like to reach out to this guy. Mark Ellis, comedian and Rotten Tomatoes correspondent. Mark, thanks for being here.

[Mark Ellis]

Hey, I appreciate that intro, Bob. I'll keep showing up. If you keep referring to me as when you think Hollywood, you think of this guy, then I'll be on every episode if you need me. This feels good.

[Bob Crawford]

I gotta say, I liked you. And then I found out you're from North Carolina, so I really like you.

[Mark Ellis]

Oh, okay. So your audience may not be able to see this, but I got my Demon Deacon tattoo.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, my gosh.

[Mark Ellis]

Wow. I'm a Wake Forest Deacon. And Deacon for life. So go Deeks.

[Bob Crawford]

It's going to be if you're an acc. I'm a Tar Heels fan, but I respect all the ACC teams. And if you're an ACC fan, it's going to be a good basketball year. It should be a pretty good year all around for all those teams.

[Mark Ellis]

Many. You and I can root against Duke together.

[Bob Crawford]

That's right. That's what we have. One of the things we share in common. The other thing we share in common are a love for film and a love for history. So, Mark, here's the question we were hoping you could help us answer today.

[Mark Ellis]

Hi, this is Sarah in Houston, Texas. My question is how did Hollywood studio heads manage to keep the industry alive during the Great Depression? Also, how were people able to afford going to the movies when some could barely afford food?

[Bob Crawford]

Now, Mark, for some context, the Great Depression lasted for most of the 1930s. You had maybe the entire 1930s. Really. You had 25% unemployment. Global economic uncertainty, which fueled political extremism. People lost their entire lives, savings. A lot of challenges at that time. What is happening in Hollywood?

[Mark Ellis]

It's a great question. And what's happening in Hollywood in terms of the big studio heads versus what the audiences are doing are two different answers. So if you're looking at what is Hollywood doing at the time of the Great Depression, when the stock market crash officially happened in that big sort of, I guess, anti boom that started the Depression In October of 1929, you had movie studios having their own reckoning, nothing to do with the economics of the United States or the world. They were figuring out, oh man, this sound thing is really going to catch on. And so we're going from the silent movie era into a movie where now the actors can talk and they can perform and you no longer need these giant orchestras playing in a movie house. You just have a soundtrack to everything. So the technological innovations that were happening in Hollywood around the time of the Depression, it seems like a polar opposite to what's going on economically. And the impact that the Great Depression was going to have on these big studios was something that was wholly unanticipated. It wasn't so much economic, it was a different way of doing things. And ultimately, I feel like the Great Depression was the seed that would eventually become the plant that destroyed the monopolies that the studios had in Hollywood.

[Bob Crawford]

This is the heyday of the Marx Brothers, right? Wizard of Oz comes out the end of the 1930s. What sorts of movies were big during Depression?

[Mark Ellis]

I love that you brought up the Marx Brothers because now that we had some sound in movies and the Marx Brothers could do like their song and dance because they were very talented, you know, musicians. They were very talented performers, not just doing comedy, but they could have like a song and dance number at the end of some of their movies. So the big movies that were happening at the dawn of the 30s were these musicals, but they were so oversaturated at the beginning of the 30s that a lot of them went away by 1931 or 1932 because folks were just tired of them. It wasn't until you had a different way to tell those stories that you got a resurgence of the song and dance numbers. Around that time you also had the Universal Pictures that were getting into horror movies. You had your Dracula, you had Frankenstein. You also had RKO releasing king Kong in 1933. And then you have these whimsical tales like the wizard of Oz that closed out that decade, but you also had the sweeping historical epic the same year with Gone with the Wind. So I feel like it wasn't just the sound, it wasn't just the Depression, it wasn't just the times we live in. It just feels like that's the natural evolution of cinema that happened to hit in the 30s, where now audiences showing up to a movie house had a lot of different tastes, satisfied. It wasn't just one thing anymore. Where it feels like the studios might have been leaning into song and dance as we turned into the 30s, I think that folks spoke with their wallets, meager as they may have been at the times, thanks to the Depression. And they said, we also want to see other types of movies. We like being scared, we like laughing, we like being transported to a different time and place.

[Bob Crawford]

I came of age during mtv, when MTV first launches, and you have, looking back on it, and even at the time, you had, you got a sense that music videos, like you said, it was like you could throw anything at. You literally throw paint at the wall, like, like just to see what would work. And you had all this experimentation. It sounds like you're telling me that's kind of what filmmakers were doing with sound. Now you had sound and you had picture and you could play. Is that kind of your sense?

[Mark Ellis]

Yeah, I mean, you had, you had so many more avenues to tell your story. And so, you know, obviously something like the wizard of Oz isn't going to work as a silent film, but you also have horror movies that don't need a lot of dialogue, but it also, it just, it spices it up. And I think that when you're looking at actors from the 20s who are realizing, oh man, our industry is changing dramatically too, and we're actually going to have to perform this stuff in, on, on film. You also have audiences that are now excited to see that kind of stuff. And so if you're looking at reinventing a music video where the music videos came out and around the early 80s, you could pretty much do whatever you want. You get into the 90s and now you have Guns n Roses doing these, you know, seven, eight minute epic music videos. It's sort of the way that Busby Berkeley Co. Reinvented what a song and dance film could be, because we were so bored with them at the dawn of the 30s. And then Busby Berkeley comes along and has these incredible things that just are completely transformative to that genre. And so you have a film like 42nd street where it's like, oh, this is what we've been missing. Oh, let's bring this back into the fold. So a lot of this is cyclical where in our modern movie making appetites, we may feel a little oversaturated with Marvel movies or comic book flicks in general, but then you don't have one For a while. And you're like, no, I kind of do like going to the theater to see that. So it's studios figuring out what audiences want and how much of that product they want.

[Bob Crawford]

So let's get to the second part of Sarah's question, which were people going to the movies in the 1930s? Like, how. How was that possible? How were. How was it possible for people to go to the movies in the 1930s when they were so cash strapped?

[Mark Ellis]

Well, I think you look at any time where folks feel desperation in this country, and the arts and entertainment are always going to be there for you some reason. Examples would BE Right after 9 11, the New York comedy clubs were packed, right? You look at something like Vietnam and there's so much music and movies coming out of that sort of defining that generation. You go all the way back to the Great Depression, right? And you look at the 1930s and audiences, what can they even spend money going to theaters? Well, they're going to need some help. And the theaters needed help to get audiences in there. So what the theater started doing is this was the. The beginning of promotions and like, hey, you can come see a double feature now. And they had penny theaters in small town, literally cost that much to go see a movie. They also started doing raffles, they started doing giveaways. Sometimes you would go to a movie and you just not only wanted to see a movie, but you also wanted to know what's going on in the world. You could watch a newsreel in front of the film. This wasn't like you could just turn on the TV and catch the news anytime. So it was one of those things where what happens when there's dark times in. In your real world with any of us, we do want to escape. We're going to have to deal with those problems at some point. But to get a break from it, to get taken to an entirely different world. May the magical land of Oz, maybe it's. Maybe you're going to see gold diggers of 1933, right? It doesn't matter what you're seeing. Just to be taken away in a movie theater was one of the few places back then, you know, back in this day, they didn't have bars. We could throw axes for fun on Friday night. You know, they didn't have mini golf courses everywhere yet. They didn't have a lot of amusement parks. This was the place to go to get away from your troubles and your worries. And I think that with the increased offerings and increased variety of offerings, and it seems weird to say that Dracula was a big hit when it came out around this time period. But you think about it, when there's scary stuff in real life, sometimes we do just want to go to a movie and get scared that way.

[Orderly Meds Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

We're talking about how the advent of sound kind of broke the old studio system. The old way Hollywood worked. Talk about the studio system that rose out of that during the Depression. How did the studio system work?

[Mark Ellis]

So the way the studio system worked at the dawn of the Depression is. So this is in the 20s, going into the 30s, is you had your big five studios, right? And these all operated sort of like one of my favorite menu items at Taco Bell, the seven layer burrito. Right. They had every layer in house. It was a vertical kind of structure where they had the production, they had the distribution. They even owned the theaters where the movies were going to be shown. They also had very cheap contracts with everyone from directors to writers to stars, where they could have these stars appear in multiple films at $0.10 on the dollar. And so it was very studio friendly. It was not necessarily person friendly. One of the things that came out of the Depression was the New Deal. FDR comes into office and he's got his big speech when he. When he becomes president, he says, we have nothing to fear but fear itself. And it feels like the whole country is going to try to rally with the New Deal. Now, the New Deal did not impact Hollywood in and of itself, but one of the things that the New Deal started to focus on was labor organizations. And when you look at Hollywood, what do we talk about all the time now? We talk about sag, we talk about the Director's Guild, the Writers Guild. All of these things were sort of born out of this time period with the Screen Actors Guild being a big one that sort of helped start bust these monopolies where now actors have some empowerment. The other thing they could do at the time is go to Poverty Row. And not quite as scary as it sounds, but Poverty Row was smaller studios that were sort of needing to outsource. They needed to rent equipment, they needed to go have a star come to them, so to speak. You had guys like John Wayne got his start there. Humphrey Bogart would occasionally appear in these Poverty Row movies that most of which don't even exist now. You can't find them anywhere. There's a few you can still track down. But this was one of the ways to get around the studio system at the time. And when the Depression hits the. These are actually somewhat salient options for Theaters because it's just not under the big studio title. So as we get into the late 30s and going into the 40s, studios are realizing that this monopoly thing is not going to be lasting forever. And there's a landmark case with Paramount in the late 1940s that kind of sealed the deal where it busted the monopolies that big studios had over Hollywood.

[Bob Crawford]

Is there a poverty row film that, that you can kind of bring in that, that we maybe we all heard of?

[Mark Ellis]

It's, it's nothing that people have, have really heard of. I mean there's, there's some, it's more the stars than, than you have. Like the, the exact movies there, there's one called, called Mr. Wong detective there. I think there's one called Black Gold and, and it's just, it's nothing that, that most folks have ever heard of. But they, what they served in the history of Hollywood is more about the spirit of how to make an independent film because this was really the first independent films because they were not associated with either the five big studios or the three, quote, little big studios like your Universal Pictures and stuff. So this was really the way to get a film made before we could just take our cell phone and go out with our friends and make stuff and put it up on TikTok.

[Podcast Host/Ad Participant]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed. Human eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with epglis, a once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema after an initial four month or longer dosing phase. About 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief in clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[Eglis Medication Advertiser]

Hempclus Lebricizumab LBKZ a 250mg 2ml injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Eglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBGLIS before starting. Ebglis tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

[Podcast Host/Ad Participant]

Ask your doctor about evglis and visit evglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-lillyrx or 1-800-545-5979.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures if you're looking

[Klarna and Wells Fargo Advertiser]

for more flexibility in how you pay for everyday purchases, meet Klarna. Klarna lets you decide whether to pay now, pay later, or spread payments over time. All managed right in the Klarna app. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms Apply California Resident Loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance law license NMLS number 1353190 Klarna balance account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, terms and conditions apply.

[Orderly Meds Advertiser]

Lost support through telehealth, but it feels overwhelming and rushed. Check out orderlymeds.com now. Orderlymeds.com was built to be different. Here you connect with real doctors who take the time to understand your goals, review your eligibility, and guide you through a plan that's right for you. Orderly Meds provides access to proven GLP1 medications like semaglutide and Tirzepatide, including both name brand options and personalized compound versions when appropriate. So you have choices backed by clinical oversight, not guesswork. It's a simpler, more supportive telehealth experience designed around people who want clarity, care and confidence in their weight loss journey. And your medication is delivered directly to your home in discreet packaging so your experience stays private from start to finish. Do your research, ask the right questions, then visit orderlymeds.com podcast for an exclusive offer. Again, that's orderlymeds.com podcast. Individual results may vary. Not medical advice, eligibility required. See cite for details.

[Land.com Advertiser]

You ever get the feeling the city walls closing in the concrete jungle suffocating your soul? You crave wide open spaces, the chance to connect with nature, maybe chase some elk, fish a private stream. Well, listen up. There's a whole world out there, and finding your own piece of it just got easier. Head over to land.com they've got ranches, forest, mountains, you name it. Search by acreage, location, the kind of hunting or fishing you dream of. Land.com it's where the adventure begins.

[Bob Crawford]

This is American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Today my guest is Mark Ellis, comedian and Rotten Tomatoes correspondent. We're talking about Hollywood in the Great Depression. How did it survive? Well, the only way for us to survive is if you send us your questions about American history. So please remember, record yourself using the voice memo app on your phone and email it to AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com that's AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com now, back to the show. So you mentioned that the like, for example, Fox, Fox films, right? 20th Century Fox owned the movie theater that their films would play in. Actors and writers worked for specific studios. There was no TV at home. There was no Netflix. Because of all that was the Depression, the golden age for Hollywood.

[Mark Ellis]

It was the only game in town. It feels like, to get an escape from everything that's happening in your real life and what you're looking at on the newspapers and even, I think, reading a book, it would pale in comparison in this one way, in that you're not completely, overwhelmingly taken to a different world. You can use your imagination. But to just be able to take a mental break from the strain of everyday life, there is nothing better today, or especially back then, we didn't have a lot of other options to go to, to sit in a dark theater and watch a story being told to you on the screen. And I think that one of the big things that gets lost in this is, yes, you had a lot of folks struggling, but it's not just being transported and being able to be told a story and forget about your cares and your troubles. It's the fact that you're doing it with a community of folks, most of whom are strangers to you, but you're sitting in a dark room and you're all in this together. And a lot of the stories that were being told on that screen have that we're all in this together kind of vibe. And so sometimes you have a horror movie, sometimes you have a whimsical comedy, a song and dance movie. But a lot of them felt like, hey, it's. We. We have a team here, and we're not hopeless. We're just down right now.

[Bob Crawford]

What about gangster films? Were they big during the. During the Depression, or was that after

[Mark Ellis]

the gangster films were. Okay, so here's a funny story.

[Bob Crawford]

I think that I'm thinking of James Cagney.

[Mark Ellis]

I was just gonna say James Cagney was actually in. He was known as a dramatic actor, but he was also a song and dance guy. And so James Cagney now was able to do song and dance stuff that he wasn't able to do before because nobody knew that he could do it or wanted to do it. So you have James Cagney. He's always going to be associated with the gangster movies, but he also had an opportunity during the early 30s to be in a couple, like, hey, look. Look at what James Cagney can do. So I would say that this wasn't quite the golden age of gangster films yet, but it was the. The train was coming around the tracks, and you also had. Going into the 40s, you had a lot of thrillers, and that was sort of the dawn of. I mean, you know, you had Double Indemnity come out in 44. You had Citizen Kane in 40. So you had different ways to tell stories. And it's just fun to watch filmmakers back then experiment with all these different techniques and genres, figuring out what works for them.

[Bob Crawford]

Thanks to AMC and TCM. The. What is it? AMC's the film movie. American Movie Channel.

[Mark Ellis]

Turner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Turner Classic Movies and the American Movie Channel.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, yeah. I. I have seen Double Indemnity yearly for the past three or four years. I've seen that. I studied it way back, taking film classes in college, and I watched it two, three weeks ago.

[Mark Ellis]

It is movie. It's so good. And what I love about Double Indemnity is that so many people think that it's Hitchcock and it's not.

[Bob Crawford]

Was that wild? Well, who was the director of that?

[Mark Ellis]

It was Billy Wilder. And here's a great story. Yeah, Billy Wilder directed it. And I believe, as the story goes, Alfred Hitchcock saw it, and Alfred Hitchcock had already done a couple movies by then. And I believe, and he wrote a letter to Billy Wilder and he said that you can't mention. You know, I can't remember if it was suspense or horror, something like that, or storytelling without Billy Wilder. And it was just to have those two, to have Alfred Hitchcock give you the sign off that your film noir, your suspense thriller is on the right track. That's saying something. And I also rewatched that movie way too much. I just find it. It's so good. It's such a great time period. Fred McMurray is just unbelievable in it. That's what a man looks like. And he was probably. He was probably 15 years younger than me. And when he walks on the screen, he looks like he feels like my dad. Like, that's. That's a dude back then.

[Bob Crawford]

And if you are a person of my age, you remember My Three Sons.

[Mark Ellis]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

Which is what you grew up, which was a sitcom, I guess. I guess you would consider it a sitcom today. And it was, you know, it was, of course, in color. In color. And I guess McMurray plays a single father. Right. Maybe a widower or he's a single father somehow, of three sons. But I remember my dad telling me watching that, like, hey, this guy was actually a serious actor. And, you know, I get older and I watch Dublin Indemnity.

[Mark Ellis]

And he's a great winemaker. He's a great winemaker, too. McMurray has a great Russian River Valley Pinot Noir. Check it out.

[Bob Crawford]

Did not know that. I will check that out. Okay, so we'll do a film noir episode here at some point.

[Mark Ellis]

Oh, yeah, I'd love to.

[Bob Crawford]

Mark. In 1934, the head of the Motion Picture Producers and Distributors association said, quote, no Medium has contributed more greatly than the film industry to the maintenance of the national morale during a period featured by revolution, riot, and political turmoil in other countries. Let's. Can we break this. I'd like to break this. This quote down with you.

[Mark Ellis]

Yeah. This quote is. It's serving multiple purposes. Right. Because it's true, I believe, to a certain extent, is that you are building national morale, where you have a community place where people can go and they can, you know, not think about what's going on in the real world for a little bit. That's awesome. That's great. But for studios, this was an important thing to say because it kind of let the government know, hey, we're doing okay with our system here. We don't really want you interfering. And. And I think one of the reasons why they had a stricter enforcement of the Hays code in the mid-30s, the Hays code was something that came out where it didn't want anything too morally lewd to be seen in movies. And so they started more strict enforcement of the Hays Code, where even something like Dracula, the Bela Gosi in Dracula, that probably would have had a couple scenes come out. And as a matter of fact, there's some prints that had scenes cut out once the Hays Code was being more enforced. And I say all this to say the reason why they were enforcing the Hays Code more around the time that this quote was given is to let the government know, hey, wink and nod. We're taking care of. We're not putting anything bad. We're not putting anything racy in our movies. So maybe leave us alone and let those watchdogs not worry about the monopolies we've created with our studio system. So it's serving multiple purposes with that quote.

[Bob Crawford]

And you talked about the rise of, like, the unions and this and that. And we'll see later. Ronald Reagan will come out of this. Right. He's an actor who becomes a union representative for actors, and he's on the side of labor. He jumps to the other side, becomes president of the United states in the 1980s.

[Mark Ellis]

That's right. And Ronnie Reagan was in a couple of those. I believe one of his first big breaks was a Poverty Row film. So I think he. I believe he starred in Poverty Row films as. So, hey, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right, Ron?

[Bob Crawford]

That's what he would say.

[Mark Ellis]

That's what he would say.

[Bob Crawford]

But is this the time period where we begin to get into a rating system? And I guess there. I'm sure there were religious organizations and groups, and government were probably like, this quote kind of alludes to suspicious of the studios.

[Mark Ellis]

Yeah, you had to do something because it became untenable after a while to just have this sort of arbitrary code that was being enforced or wasn't being enforced. And so you needed to sort of have something more centralized. Even though I think the studios were resistant of that idea for obvious reasons. They didn't want to make something. They kind of wanted to make whatever they could and just say, hey, okay, this thing, don't worry, checks all the boxes. You don't have to worry about, as opposed to actually having some oversight just in terms of what general audiences versus what more adult audiences can take in.

[Bob Crawford]

What are your thoughts on this? Like, the idea that film being a distraction? Like, we've already kind of talked about that a little bit, and you've mentioned that, like, it is this like, let me put my brain down for a second or just like, let me put my cares away and focus on something else. Do you. Is there a flip side argument where, you know, the world's in dire straits, we need to be solving problems, not bringing stranger things into the. Into every commercial that exists this past couple months. But, like, I mean, like, what do you think about that? The flip side of the distraction argument?

[Mark Ellis]

Yeah, I think that we're such a kind of consumer culture, and I think that everybody has to find your balance. That's the key here. It's balance. It's not. Not, you know, it's not eating pizza every day, but it's also not killing yourself at the gym. It's finding a balance between it and, you know, the, the nice thing is that the movies aren't going away and they aren't something that just shows up when times are tough everywhere. Right. The times might be tough for you and they might be great for somebody else. There's. It's actually very rare that you have something like a great depression where everybody is feeling it at the same time. And so this is why we need movies. This is why we need movie theaters. Is it just somewhere to go to free. You're not. That you're not putting stuff off permanently. You're not saying, I'm never talking to that person again or I'm never going to get that job. But it just, it. Sometimes it's nice to just get a different perspective. And I guarantee you, you go in and you see a movie and you're walking out with a slightly different take on the world. And I go back to something that I learned when I was in eighth grade, and that's how. How to study. Right? And it's like, you think you just got to cram that book and you got to read it from COVID to cover until you're done reading it. You're not going to retain all that information that way. You read a little, you read a chapter, you take notes, maybe you take a break. You take a break every 30 minutes. That's what movies and entertainment is good for. It's taking a break from everything else you're doing. And you should do it every so often because it gives you freshness when you come back to the real problems that you do have to solve in your life. So it doesn't matter what kind of movie you're seeing. It's just. It's nice to get your brain on a different track for a little while. Just don't keep it there all Day, maybe. Maybe don't binge the entirety of the new Stranger Things season. Maybe watch a couple episodes and come back tomorrow night. Watch it like a miniseries used to be on tv.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, Mark, it's easy for historian or historians are. They do a good job at. At. At the past, right? They're good at the past. They're terrible at predicting the future. So you're a comedian and a journalist. So I'm going to leave. I want to. I want to get your opinion on this before we part ways. There are a lot of current threats to Hollywood. They're streaming. There's artificial intelligence, there's piracy. What do you think? There's consolidation. What do you think's going to happen over the next few years?

[Mark Ellis]

So when I look at the consolidation aspect is. Honestly, for me right now is the most nebulous part of this whole thing where you feel like at least the hope with AI is that it's going to be a thing that is lurking around arts and entertainment, right. And you just. It doesn't. If you're watching a commercial with a polar bear that looks funny on it or you're, you know, it doesn't really matter what it is. It's not new. And I think that the more that AI sort of infiltrates arts and entertainment, the more there's going to be a need for fresh voices, human voices, to make stuff. And we just need to be there to show up, to watch it. Right. So I think that it doesn't matter if it's streaming, whether you're supporting it with your click, your remote, you're going out to buy a ticket to see something. There's going to be those community things where even if you're not going to see a movie in a theater, you know, you take the example of something like Stranger Things. It's like you want to be able to talk about this with other people. Right. These are sort of like big things that we all want to relate to. And so stay in the game as far as where everything is going. I don't think you're ever going to lose movie theaters because I just think that that experience, being around people in a theater, having that shared sort of community aspect, is so important to us. And it feels like with everybody sort of their faces in their phones all day, that that is something that is going to become more vital in the future, not less important. With AI I have no idea. I just know that it's not telling anything original. If you just want rehashes. Sure. If you want original voices, then that's where you support and you champion filmmakers coming up right now.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, I think, like, being in. I'm in the music business, and the one, the one place it can't touch us is selling tickets to a concert and being there in person, in front of people and playing music and being living art, like art in the moment. And so I imagined that there will be. The AI Is going to continue to infiltrate the film or the recorded. The recorded audio. But. But there will, There will be a backlash to it because we, we need humans making art.

[Mark Ellis]

Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do. And look, I'm a huge Van Halen fan, right? And I would much rather see a Van Halen cover band than I would watch some AI generated thing of Eddie Van Halen hanging out with Jimi Hendrix. I don't need that.

[Bob Crawford]

That's right.

[Mark Ellis]

I don't need that. I want to hear the music. I want to hear it live. I want to hear it done by humans.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, the question is, would you rather see a Van Halen cover band or David Lee Roth on his most recent tour?

[Mark Ellis]

Give me dlr, baby. He sounded so good in a clip that I saw recently, and he really didn't sound good five years ago from some of the stuff I'd seen and shows I'd been to. But he looks like he's got it back together, man. Rest does the body good. And if you're Diamond Dave, stay out there, baby. Keep putting that music out there in the world.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm with you on that one. Well, I've been talking with Mark Ellis, comedian and Rotten Tomatoes correspondent.

[Mark Ellis]

Oh, it's a pleasure, Bob. And knowing that we have all these things, we discover new things about our friendship every time we do a show together.

[Bob Crawford]

You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of iHeart podcasts and Scratch Tracks Productions. The show's executive producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan Runtal and Jason English. Original music composed by me, Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is americanhistoryhotlinemail.com if you like the show, please tell your friends and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me up on social media to ask a history question or to let me know what you think of the show. You can find me at bobcrawford Bass. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

[Klarna and Wells Fargo Advertiser]

At cvs. It matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you. When you need us, day or night, and we want everyone to feel welco welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location have you heard about Klarna? Klarna is an app designed to make everyday spending simpler and more transparent. It gives you flexibility to decide how you want to pay, whether that's paying right away, paying later, or spreading payments over time, depending on what works best for you. Everything is managed in the Klarna app so you can keep track of purchases and stay organized. You can also discover deals and even earn cash back when you shop through the Klarna app with participating brands. It's all about flexibility and staying in control of how and when you pay. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms Apply California Resident Loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance Law License NMLS Number 1353190 Klarna Balance Account required to be eligible for cashback points Limitations, terms and conditions.

[Land.com Advertiser]

You ever get the feeling the city walls closing in, the concrete jungle suffocating your soul? You crave wide open spaces, the chance to connect with nature, maybe chase some elk, fish a private stream. Well, listen up. There's a whole world out there, and finding your own piece of it just got easier. Head over to land.com they've got ranches, forests, mountains, you name it. Search by acreage, location, the kind of hunting or fishing you dream of. Land.com it's where the adventure begins.

[Orderly Meds Advertiser]

When people turn to healthcare for weight loss, they're looking for real support. That's why more people are choosing. Orderlymeds.com Orderly Meds connects you with real doctors and access to proven GLP1 medications like semaglutide and Tirzepatide. No guessing, just a more supportive experience and all shipped directly to your door in discreet packaging. Do your research, ask questions, then visit orderlymeds.com podcast for an exclusive offer. That's orderlymeds.com podcast. Individual results may vary. Not medical advice. Eligibility required. See Cite for details. Wasn't that delicious?

[Podcast Host/Ad Participant]

So good.

[Mark Ellis]

Your bill, ladies. I got it.

[Podcast Host/Ad Participant]

No, I got it.

[Klarna and Wells Fargo Advertiser]

Seriously, I insist.

[Eglis Medication Advertiser]

I insisted first.

[Klarna and Wells Fargo Advertiser]

Don't be silly. You know me, silly people with The

[Mark Ellis]

Wells Fargo ActiveCash credit card prefer to

[Bob Crawford]

pay because they earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases.

[Klarna and Wells Fargo Advertiser]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Mark Ellis]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Klarna and Wells Fargo Advertiser]

Shoot.

[Mark Ellis]

No The Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card.

[Bob Crawford]

Visit Wells Fargo.com Active Cash Terms apply.

[Podcast Host/Ad Participant]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.