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[00:00]
A
I think we've gotten so gosh darn good at yelling at one another, we've forgotten how to talk to one another.
[00:09]
B
You've reached American History Hotline. You ask the questions, we get the answers. Leave a message. Hey there, American History Hotliners. Bob Crawford, Thrilled to be joining you again today for another episode of American History Hotline. It's the show where you ask the questions. And the best way to get us a question is to go to our website, AmericanHistoryHotline.com, our new website, not Gmail anymore. Sorry about that. That's americanhistoryhotline.com Once again, americanhistoryhotline.com Take a maybe record a voice memo of your question, or better yet, film yourself asking the question and we'll play it on the show. We'll get an expert to answer it for you. Okay. On to today's question. It comes from Naomi. She asks how did the Cold War end when there was so much tension for so long? Great question, Naomi. And we're going to go a little sideways with that question today because there's a new movie coming out that I think we can tie in here and I think really helps to answer your question. Joining me now is Michael Russell Gunn. He's the writer and director of the new movie the Brink of War, which is out August 14th. Michael, thank you for joining me today.
[01:38]
A
Thank you, Bob. And great question from Naomi.
[01:42]
B
Excellent question. And in fact, it's a topic and the subject of your film we're about to talk about has always been of great fascination to me. So very excited to have you here.
[01:55]
A
Thank you.
[01:56]
B
Michael, your film is about what you call one of the most significant diplomatic achievements most people have never heard of, the Reykjavik Summit. Can you orient us when was this and what was going on in the Cold War at the time?
[02:14]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's a lot of different moments in the Cold War that were very tense. You know, the Cuban Missile Crisis, able archer in 83, the but what happened in 86 was they had a new guy come into power in the Soviet Union, which was Mikhail Gorbachev. And for six years, Ronald Reagan had been wanting to meet somebody from the Soviet side. And they kept dying, These old guys, they kept dying. So here come this young guy who's in his 50s, Mikhail Gorbachev. And the problem that was going on was that Ronald Reagan had, you know, rebuilt the American military and had been showing strength in Europe by putting ballistic missiles there and all these kind of things that were showing strength to the Soviets to try to force them to the negotiating table, but he couldn't find a partner for that. And here comes Gorbachev. And what was happening on Gorbachev's side was the Red army was saying, we think we're gonna have to go to war. If you don't figure this out really quickly, we're going to have to get rid of you and we're going to have to go to war. And so it was an incredibly tense moment, to which in the room in Iceland, where the film is set, they had a moment where Reagan said, I don't think this has ever happened before in human history. There's just the two of us to decide if there's going to be peace or war in the world. And it was this kind of incredibly profound moment. And so, you know, to come full circle to Naomi's question, I think the argument that the film makes that I would make is, you know, years later, Secretary of State Schultz was visited by Gorbachev out at Stanford in California. And he said exactly what Naomi's question was, which was, you know, we were at the coldest point when we met. And then it was over three years later. How did that happen?
[04:12]
B
And.
[04:12]
A
And Gorbachev answered with a single word, which was Reykjavik. And so this film tells the story of Reykjavik in that summit, this crazy moment in history where two people, sometimes four people got in this room and figured it out and built a relationship that led to the end of the Cold War.
[04:29]
B
I want our listeners to know that Jeff Daniels plays Ronald Reagan and Jared Harris plays Gorbachev. And Harris is well known for his performance in the HBO limited series Chernobyl, which I've seen on many lists of the greatest television shows of all time.
[04:48]
A
Yes.
[04:49]
B
Okay. So Gorbachev and Reagan meet at this summit. You talked about the motivation of not going to war.
[04:59]
A
Yes.
[05:00]
B
Were there other motivations?
[05:02]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So I think the biggest one was avoiding conflict, but there were ancillary ones, especially from the American perspective, which was really about human rights.
[05:13]
B
And.
[05:13]
A
And, you know, basically, I think the Americans had, for a long time post World War II, really believed that allowing a Soviet sphere of influence had essentially imprisoned millions and millions of people, especially across Eastern Europe. And so it was really important to the American side. And Reagan said it in the room. You know, we use the declassified transcripts to work through the script. You know, I used. There's some verbatim straight out of the transcripts. And so, you know, the Americans came to it with a perspective that human rights were also important, that the ability of the people in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union to have freedom of travel, freedom of speech, all these kinds of things. And so it was Gorbachev, I think, in his willingness to not use force, ultimately to oppress people. That really was the connection that Reagan and Gorbachev made, that they. They were two human beings who put their humanity first before their ideology, before their, you know, political systems and economic systems. And that ultimately was the breakthrough. They were able to have trust. And once that trust was established, then everything else was possible.
[06:27]
B
There's a famous Reagan line that has. Has survived this time period and is still used today. He would say, trust. Did you know what I was going to say?
[06:39]
A
Yes, trust but verify.
[06:41]
B
Right?
[06:42]
A
Yeah.
[06:42]
B
Is this where that line comes from?
[06:45]
A
Yes, this is where that line comes from.
[06:48]
B
And so there's a tagline somewhere for the, for the film. It says, can you trust an enemy?
[06:53]
A
Right.
[06:54]
B
So how did Reagan come. Come to make this deal with our perceived pop culture at the time? Told us that the Soviets were our greatest enemies?
[07:06]
A
Yes. Well, I think that phrase that you referenced, trust but verify, was a. You know, he was a very savvy negotiator. You know, ultimately Reagan and he. That was a Russian parable. You know, he was quoting it in Russian to Gorbachev, and I'm going to butcher the Russian, so I'll try to avoid that. But it's trust but verify in English. And, you know, the thing that he really said was, let's make a relationship. Let's build trust in this room and then verify what we can do in the real world based on that. That if we're going to say, hey, let's find an agreement to reduce nuclear arms, then how do we verify it? Becomes what do we do to verify that? And that was stuff that they left to advisors, to the generals to figure out. But the. The key factor to Reagan was that they had had 40 years of evidence of the Soviets, you know, cheating on, you know, different control measures. And so. And I think, you know, on the Gorbachev side, on the Russian side, I think that it was a shocking moment to be asked to open their system, but it was one they were willing to do. And it's one of these crazy, true things in history that I think we've forgotten. But up until a few years ago into the Ukraine conflict, they still allowed Russian and American planes to fly over our countries and just check on our nuclear sites. And it's kind of surreal to think about, at least to me, growing up so many years after this, to think About a Russian plane flying over South Dakota or wherever to check the silos.
[08:42]
B
Yeah. So the big aspect of this negotiation is over reducing our nuclear arsenals for both countries.
[08:53]
A
Yes.
[08:54]
B
Talk about that. Talk about what trips them up in these negotiations.
[09:01]
A
Well, they both brought a lot of ideas about how to do it to the table, and both brought up a lot of different things that they wanted to talk about. But the key factor was that they had 70,000 nuclear weapons pointed at each other. And Gorbachev said to Reagan, I was very inspired by your first campaign where you call for nuclear zero. And so he. In this crazy true moment, he slides a piece of paper across the table that says, we're willing to reduce the nuclear weapons in Europe to zero. And all of a sudden, dialogue opens and they start to negotiate and they start to realize where the lines are for each person. And they get so far that at one point they had a deal to get rid of all nuclear weapons on Earth, and it falls apart over one word. This is all true. It's on the transcripts. But I would say to find out the word, Bob, you gotta go to the theater on August 14th to find out what the one word was.
[09:58]
B
And if I'm not mistaken, the negotiations break down, Right?
[10:03]
A
Yes, Correct.
[10:03]
B
And Reagan, he's gonna stay there, and it gets later and later at night, and he wants to. He tells his. And this is off a memory, and correct me if I'm wrong, he. He tells Nancy, I'm gonna be home by dinner.
[10:14]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
[10:15]
B
Right. Isn't that true?
[10:16]
A
Yeah, that's right.
[10:18]
B
It doesn't happen. Right. They don't. And they don't have a. But we talked at the. Before we started the interview about our mutual friend Pete Souza.
[10:26]
A
Yes.
[10:26]
B
Who was Reagan's photographer at the time, who took. And I'm. For those listening, you can't see, but for those watching, these are the photos of when it breaks down. This is a photo of when it breaks down. And if you look at Reagan's face there, you can just see the disappointment and the frustration.
[10:46]
A
Yeah.
[10:47]
B
So we're not going to mention the word. Yeah.
[10:49]
A
We're not going to mention the word spoilers.
[10:51]
B
I know that word. I think I know that word. Okay. George Schultz.
[10:55]
A
Yes.
[10:56]
B
He was Secretary of State. Is it correct that I read that a lot of what you guys were. You had access to his notes?
[11:06]
A
Yeah. So I owe him. I mean, truly, Bob, like, in a most human way, I owe him. He's a hero of mine. He's one of only two people in history to serve in four different cabinet positions. You know, he was a Marine in World War II. He devoted his whole life to public service. And so the film. My thing for him was the film was dedicated to him. Like, you know, he devoted himself to the American people and public service, and I wanted to honor that.
[11:31]
B
Did you ever get to meet him?
[11:33]
A
I did. I met him several times. I interviewed him for hours. And he gave me the declassified transcripts. They were still stamped classified at the top, which was a little unnerving for me. But they. They were recently declassified, and he gave me those, and that was what formed the basis of the script. And he told incredible stories. One of the more profound things that I put in the film but just shocked me was he said the first time he saw the two military officers holding both nuclear footballs, the controls for all the nuclear weapons on earth, in this room. These two guys facing off against one another, one Soviet, one American. And he just thought, wow, if we just press the button, it's all over right here. So that was really incredible.
[12:19]
B
And you were able to film this in the actual room where it happened?
[12:23]
A
We filmed in the actual room where it happened.
[12:25]
B
Talk about the vibes.
[12:28]
A
The vibes were intense, I can tell you that much. I mean, not only the room, we had the. You know, they went to the archives in Iceland and got the paintings back on the wall.
[12:36]
B
They.
[12:36]
A
The guys, Jeff and Jared are sitting in the seats where Reagan and Gorbachev sat. And so if you're a history nerd like me, you know, that was about as the pinnacle as you could get. You know, we were in that room. The North Atlantic waves are crashing, you know, outside. The poor sound design team, you know, they had to record with the wind coming through the house off the North Atlantic. So it was about as real as we could make it.
[13:03]
B
Yeah, I know from doing location film. Sound in another life, you want it silent in there. You add that stuff in later.
[13:12]
A
Yes, correct.
[13:13]
B
So I'm sure the soundmen were going nuts.
[13:15]
A
They were going nuts. And, you know, remember, these chairs are, you know, more than 40 years old. So they're squeaking, you know, and the guys are moving around. And, you know, you got cameras in there, we got dollies in there. It's, you know, it was a challenge for the sound department.
[13:29]
B
The battle between camera department and the sound department is never ending.
[13:33]
A
Never end.
[13:35]
B
So was it hard to get. Get these archival materials? I mean, you know, what's the. Is there a. Is there a process for this? Obviously, there must be. And was it challenging?
[13:46]
A
Yes. It was. I mean, we did tons of research. I mean, I did tons of research for the script, you know, interviewing people, reading, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then for the production process, we did everything humanly possible. And to come back to Pete Souza, his, his proofs that we drew out of the National Security Archives still had his name on him in, written in his kind of, you know, pen and, or, or even grease pencil. I think some of them had the grease pencil marks still on them. And so we took those. We go to the costumer, right, and she would have the ties. We couldn't find the ties that the guys wore. So you had to go and 3D print the ties. You know, we would go and, and take in the production designer and say, we need, you know, we need it to look like this. And, you know, a funny kind of weird aside is that, you know, Hofti, the house where it happened is right in the middle of Iceland. And so Iceland has kind of grown up around it. So, you know, it came right down to the, like, the camera angles that we had to choose in order to make sure we weren't showing this bank building, you know, that's like right next to Hofti now.
[14:51]
B
Yeah, this is 40 some years ago. Yeah, 40 years ago.
[14:55]
A
Yeah.
[14:57]
B
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Today my guest is Michael Russell Gunn. He's the writer and director of new movie the Brink of War, which is out on August 14th. Remember, send us your burning questions about American history. You can do that at our new website, AmericanHistoryHotline.com that's AmericanHistoryHotline.com. now back to the show. Michael, how does the film end? I don't want you. We're not going to give it away. We're not going to give it away for free here. But would you say this meeting was the end of the Cold War?
[15:36]
A
I think certainly it was the beginning of the end of the Cold War. And I think that the relationship that they built, Reagan and one side and Gorbachev on the other side, the relationship that they built, led directly to the end of the Cold War. And even more so than that, it's an interesting perspective. I think sometimes we get a little myopic in our perspectives in history. And the truth of it was the Americans, we were the Americans, we were the ones who thought it was a failure at the time. And then we were frustrated and we walked away thinking he was a failure. Even Schultz had his doubts, but the Soviets knew immediately that they had had A breakthrough. Gorbachev goes right to a press conference and says, this is a great meeting. Like, we made real progress here. And so what the film does is it's a little bit of a. The perspective shift in that the last few minutes of the film shift in a kind of philosophical way to the Soviet perspective, to see how this was the beginning of the end of the Cold War. And so it's an incredible monologue that J.K. simmons does completely off book and with no playback. You'll appreciate this, Bob. No playback whatsoever. He just did it. And we all looked at each other on set and couldn't believe it. But he gives this monologue where he says, we didn't know, but this was it. And so it's an incredible thing that I think has been lost to history. It's one of the most pivotal moments in human history.
[17:06]
B
The film feels relevant to right now, to what's going on, to United States, Russia relations.
[17:13]
A
Yes.
[17:15]
B
Two countries that are still enemies. Things are complicated. Talk about that for a second. Talk about what you've thought about kind of personally in making this film. In where we've come, our two nations and the complex relationship, it seems like Putin is in some ways looking to regain what Gorbachev gave away.
[17:45]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think Putin was famously a KGB officer stationed in East Germany. He views the fall of the Soviet Union as one of the great tragedies that befell his country. And so I think. Yeah, I think he is diametrically opposed to Gorbachev's vision for peace. And so I think things are fraught in a way. And some of the treaties that Reykjavik led to, the INF Treaty, which reduced nuclear arms, these were pivotal moments in human history where for the first time, people voluntarily agreed to give up weapons that had never happened. And these were the worst kind of weapons, right, the nuclear weapons. And so what comes out of Reykjavik is this ultimately a 90% reduction of nuclear weapons. It's hard to fathom that, but 90%. And for the first time, these agreements are expiring. You know, China is, you know, building more nuclear weapons now than they have before. Russia is building more tactical weapons. So the first time since these events, we have this kind of history echoing back at us, rhyming back at us.
[18:59]
B
And also, we are locked in an actual hot war, not a cold war, with a nation that seeks to build nuclear weapons. And there's nuclear materials in the balance here. Is there a way? Can this meeting between Reagan and Gorbachev somehow inform the current administration with how to go about negotiating with Iran? Or are these just completely different things, different times, different people? Are we just kind of in unchartered territory?
[19:32]
A
It's a great question, I think, that we've all gotten so used. There's this great phrase I think we all know, especially US History fans, is that history, if you don't learn it, you're doomed to repeat it kind of thing. I personally think that's a little bit of a misnomer that there is. There's no direct linkage. Reagan's been passed, unfortunately, for 20 years. He governed 40 years ago. This idea that we can draw direct parallels, I think is a little bit of a mistake. It kind of lets people off the hook in dealing with the situations as they present themselves. And so I think the critical factor is that the themes of being willing to engage with somebody is always important, and it's not just at the geopolitical level. You know, I made this film because, you know, I've said it to my producers many times, but I think we've gotten so gosh darn good at yelling at one another, we've forgotten how to talk to one another. And I think that that's our neighbors, that's our communities, that's. It informs everything. And so that's the reason I made the film. I wanted to make the film about two men who had every reason to hate one another and disagree, and yet still they found a way to talk that was inspiring to me.
[20:52]
B
Why did the negotiations take place in Iceland? Oh, why Iceland?
[20:58]
A
Why Iceland? So the answer is quite simple, actually. In the end of the day, they chose Iceland because it was incredibly secure. This was an impromptu meeting. It. It came together in a couple of weeks, literally. And they decided they need the most secure place they could find. And here was this little house on the coast of Iceland with nothing else around it in the middle of an island in the middle of the North Atlantic. So it was a really secure place. And so they did that, and they were successful. That it was. You know, they didn't have committees, they didn't have press. They just had these guys in this little house. And a funny little tidbit from history that isn't out there yet, but I hope people enjoy in the film, is that the Icelandic people definitely believe that it's haunted. So here you've got Reagan and Gorbachev in a haunted house in Iceland, trying to figure out the fate of the world.
[21:55]
B
It's the setting. It is the setting that just feels like it made all that came from it possible.
[22:04]
A
Yes, 100% so before I let you
[22:08]
B
go, the actors we know, Jeff Daniels is an incredible actor based on his body of work. Can you let us in your knowledge of how he prepared to play Ronald Reagan?
[22:25]
A
Well, Jeff, as you alluded, Jeff, is an incredible actor. He's done everything. I first got to know him on the Newsroom. I came up under Aaron Sorkin. He was my. He's my mentor. And I'm watching this guy. Do, you know, if, you know, film? He's doing like, 12 pages a day, this Sorkin dialogue. And I thought, man, you know, this is the guy that I grew up watching, like, do arachnophobia and dumb and dumber and, like, you know. You know, everything. Purple Rosa, Chiro. I was like, how's this guy not have, like, two Oscars on his mantle already? Like, who is this guy? And so for. So the first thing was I knew he could handle it. So when I wrote it, I knew he could do it. I had seen him. He's. He's incredible.
[23:03]
B
It was always him in your mind.
[23:04]
A
It was. It was always him. And he. And he. And it was really a question of, like, does he want to. So I, you know, I write him this letter, and I send it to his agent and say, you know, read the script. Tell me. And so. And luckily, he did. Luckily, he wanted to do it. And he brought. He spent six or seven months on the accent, you know, watching video, listening. He'd bike around his, you know, neighborhood listening to Reagan's voice. He got in the chair for two hours a day to get the makeup and hair right. And so he really brought it. And he never left set. If you've ever been on a film set or a TV set, usually the actors you cut, they walk off set, they go to their trailer. He wouldn't leave. He stayed there. We relit. We turned the cameras around, and he just stayed right there in that chair.
[23:52]
B
Absolutely amazing. I've been talking with Michael Russell Gunn. He's the writer and director of the new movie the Brink of War, which is out August 14th. Go see it. I know I will. Michael, thank you for joining us today on American History Hotline.
[24:07]
A
Thank you so much, Bob.

Summary6 min read

American History Hotline – "How Did the Cold War End? Reagan, Gorbachev & the Secret Summit That Changed History"

Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: Michael Russell Gunn (writer/director of "The Brink of War")
Date: August 12, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode answers a listener question: "How did the Cold War end when there was so much tension for so long?" Guest Michael Russell Gunn joins Bob Crawford to discuss the 1986 Reykjavik Summit between Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev—a pivotal, often-overlooked moment that set the stage for the end of the Cold War. Drawing on his research and his upcoming film, Gunn unpacks the tense negotiations, the motivations of each side, and the human element that made true progress possible.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why Reykjavik?

Historical Context: In 1986, the Cold War was at a dangerous impasse—new Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev faced pressure from hardliners while President Reagan sought a genuine negotiating partner. Their meeting in Iceland marked a turning point (02:13–04:11).
Quote (Michael Gunn, 02:49):

"There’s just the two of us to decide if there’s going to be peace or war in the world. And it was this kind of incredibly profound moment."
Immediate Impact: Gorbachev later told Secretary of State George Shultz that "Reykjavik" was the answer to how the Cold War ended.
- Quote (Gunn, 04:12):
  
  “Gorbachev answered with a single word... Reykjavik.”

2. Motivations Behind the Summit

Avoiding War: The existential threat of nuclear conflict pushed both men to the table (04:58).
Human Rights: The American side pressed for freedom for Eastern Europeans—travel, speech, and basic rights (05:02–06:26).
- Quote (Gunn, 05:15):
  
  “The Americans had... believed that allowing a Soviet sphere of influence had essentially imprisoned millions... Human rights were also important... Gorbachev’s willingness to not use force... was the connection that Reagan and Gorbachev made.”

3. “Trust, But Verify” and Pop Culture Context

The Famous Phrase: Reagan’s maxim "Trust but verify" (from a Russian proverb) became his cornerstone in negotiations (06:26–06:47).
- Quote (Crawford, 06:38):
  
  "There's a famous Reagan line... trust but verify."
- Quote (Gunn, 06:45):
  
  "Yes, this is where that line comes from."
Building Trust: Despite deep-seated enmity, both leaders agreed to build trust in the room, then establish verification systems outside it (07:06–08:42).

4. The Negotiations—Nuclear Weapons and a Near-Breakthrough

Initiative for Nuclear Zero: Gorbachev responded to Reagan’s nuclear disarmament ideas, leading to a dramatic moment where both nearly agreed to eliminate all nuclear weapons, but the talks ultimately broke down over a single word (09:00–09:58).
- Quote (Gunn, 09:06):
  
  "He slides a piece of paper across... says, 'we’re willing to reduce the nuclear weapons in Europe to zero.'"
- Memorable Moment: The deal fails over “one word” (no spoiler given).
Personal Tensions: Iconic photos (by Pete Souza) capture Reagan’s visible disappointment as talks fail late in the night (10:14–10:46).

5. Behind the Scenes: Research and Authenticity

Dedication to George Shultz: Gunn had access to Shultz’s declassified notes and transcripts—a key to historical accuracy (11:06–12:18).
- Quote (Gunn, 11:29):
  
  "He gave me the declassified transcripts. They were still stamped classified... and that was what formed the basis of the script."
Filming in History: Movie scenes were shot in the actual room at Hofti House, with authentic details restored (12:22–13:28).
- Quote (Gunn, 12:27):
  
  "The vibes were intense... The guys, Jeff and Jared are sitting in the seats where Reagan and Gorbachev sat."
Authenticity Challenges: Archival materials, costume details, and location changes over 40 years presented obstacles in production (13:34–14:51).

6. Legacy of the Summit and Its Contemporary Resonance

Was This the End of the Cold War? Gunn argues it was the "beginning of the end," especially as the Soviet side saw it as a breakthrough—while Americans felt it was a failure at the time (15:35–17:05).
- Quote (Gunn, 16:18):
  
  "The Soviets knew immediately that they had had a breakthrough. Gorbachev goes right to a press conference and says, 'this is a great meeting.'"
Modern Parallels & Lessons: The episode draws connections to contemporary US-Russia relations, nuclear arms reduction, and current geopolitical tensions (17:13–18:58).
- Quote (Gunn, 17:46):
  
  "Putin... is diametrically opposed to Gorbachev’s vision for peace... We have this kind of history echoing back at us, rhyming back at us."
Lessons for Today: Gunn cautions against simplistic historical parallels, but emphasizes the lasting value of dialogue—even between adversaries (19:31–20:52).
- Quote (Gunn, 20:34):
  
  "We’ve gotten so gosh darn good at yelling at one another, we’ve forgotten how to talk to one another... two men who had every reason to hate each other... still found a way to talk."

7. Why Iceland?

Security and Neutrality: Iceland was chosen for its remote, secure location and lack of distractions, allowing for private talks (20:52–21:55).
- Anecdote: Locals believe Hofti House is haunted, adding to the setting's mystique.

8. Bringing History to Life – The Actors’ Approach

Jeff Daniels as Reagan: Gunn reveals Daniels spent 6–7 months perfecting Reagan’s accent, watching video, and fully immersing himself in the role—never leaving set between takes (22:03–23:52).
- Quote (Gunn, 23:41):
  
  "He got in the chair for two hours a day to get the makeup and hair right. And so he really brought it. And he never left set."

Memorable Quotes

Michael Gunn (02:49):
“There’s just the two of us to decide if there’s going to be peace or war in the world.”
Gorbachev to Shultz (04:12):
“Reykjavik.”
Michael Gunn (05:15):
“They were two human beings who put their humanity first before their ideology, before their, you know, political systems and economic systems.”
Bob Crawford (06:38):
“There’s a famous Reagan line... trust but verify.”
Michael Gunn (09:06):
“He slides a piece of paper across... says, 'we’re willing to reduce the nuclear weapons in Europe to zero.'”
Michael Gunn (16:18):
“The Soviets knew immediately that they had had a breakthrough. Gorbachev goes right to a press conference and says, 'this is a great meeting.'”
Michael Gunn (17:46):
“Putin... is diametrically opposed to Gorbachev’s vision for peace... We have this kind of history echoing back at us, rhyming back at us.”
Michael Gunn (20:34):
“We’ve gotten so gosh darn good at yelling at one another, we’ve forgotten how to talk to one another.”

Timestamps of Key Segments

02:13: Context for Reykjavik Summit – why it mattered
04:12: Gorbachev’s single-word answer to what ended the Cold War
05:02: Human rights and trust between Reagan and Gorbachev
06:26: "Trust but verify" origin and meaning
09:00: Weapons negotiations, Gorbachev’s nuclear zero gambit
10:14: Breakdown in talks, Souza’s famous photograph
11:06: Behind the scenes with George Shultz’s notes and transcripts
12:22: Filming in Hofti House and authenticity challenges
15:35: Was this meeting the end of the Cold War?
17:13: Modern echoes—U.S.-Russia, arms treaties, and Putin
19:31: What lessons can we take for current diplomacy?
20:52: Why Iceland hosted the summit

Conclusion

This episode blends historical deep-dive with behind-the-scenes filmmaking insight to reveal how a secretive, tense summit in a haunted Icelandic house shaped world history—and how personal rapport and trust between adversaries can change the fate of nations. Through Michael Gunn’s storytelling and research, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of not only how the Cold War ended, but also why human connection and dialogue matter, in any era.

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Transcript83 lines

[00:00]
A
I think we've gotten so gosh darn good at yelling at one another, we've forgotten how to talk to one another.
[00:09]
B
You've reached American History Hotline. You ask the questions, we get the answers. Leave a message. Hey there, American History Hotliners. Bob Crawford, Thrilled to be joining you again today for another episode of American History Hotline. It's the show where you ask the questions. And the best way to get us a question is to go to our website, AmericanHistoryHotline.com, our new website, not Gmail anymore. Sorry about that. That's americanhistoryhotline.com Once again, americanhistoryhotline.com Take a maybe record a voice memo of your question, or better yet, film yourself asking the question and we'll play it on the show. We'll get an expert to answer it for you. Okay. On to today's question. It comes from Naomi. She asks how did the Cold War end when there was so much tension for so long? Great question, Naomi. And we're going to go a little sideways with that question today because there's a new movie coming out that I think we can tie in here and I think really helps to answer your question. Joining me now is Michael Russell Gunn. He's the writer and director of the new movie the Brink of War, which is out August 14th. Michael, thank you for joining me today.
[01:38]
A
Thank you, Bob. And great question from Naomi.
[01:42]
B
Excellent question. And in fact, it's a topic and the subject of your film we're about to talk about has always been of great fascination to me. So very excited to have you here.
[01:55]
A
Thank you.
[01:56]
B
Michael, your film is about what you call one of the most significant diplomatic achievements most people have never heard of, the Reykjavik Summit. Can you orient us when was this and what was going on in the Cold War at the time?
[02:14]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's a lot of different moments in the Cold War that were very tense. You know, the Cuban Missile Crisis, able archer in 83, the but what happened in 86 was they had a new guy come into power in the Soviet Union, which was Mikhail Gorbachev. And for six years, Ronald Reagan had been wanting to meet somebody from the Soviet side. And they kept dying, These old guys, they kept dying. So here come this young guy who's in his 50s, Mikhail Gorbachev. And the problem that was going on was that Ronald Reagan had, you know, rebuilt the American military and had been showing strength in Europe by putting ballistic missiles there and all these kind of things that were showing strength to the Soviets to try to force them to the negotiating table, but he couldn't find a partner for that. And here comes Gorbachev. And what was happening on Gorbachev's side was the Red army was saying, we think we're gonna have to go to war. If you don't figure this out really quickly, we're going to have to get rid of you and we're going to have to go to war. And so it was an incredibly tense moment, to which in the room in Iceland, where the film is set, they had a moment where Reagan said, I don't think this has ever happened before in human history. There's just the two of us to decide if there's going to be peace or war in the world. And it was this kind of incredibly profound moment. And so, you know, to come full circle to Naomi's question, I think the argument that the film makes that I would make is, you know, years later, Secretary of State Schultz was visited by Gorbachev out at Stanford in California. And he said exactly what Naomi's question was, which was, you know, we were at the coldest point when we met. And then it was over three years later. How did that happen?
[04:12]
B
And.
[04:12]
A
And Gorbachev answered with a single word, which was Reykjavik. And so this film tells the story of Reykjavik in that summit, this crazy moment in history where two people, sometimes four people got in this room and figured it out and built a relationship that led to the end of the Cold War.
[04:29]
B
I want our listeners to know that Jeff Daniels plays Ronald Reagan and Jared Harris plays Gorbachev. And Harris is well known for his performance in the HBO limited series Chernobyl, which I've seen on many lists of the greatest television shows of all time.
[04:48]
A
Yes.
[04:49]
B
Okay. So Gorbachev and Reagan meet at this summit. You talked about the motivation of not going to war.
[04:59]
A
Yes.
[05:00]
B
Were there other motivations?
[05:02]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So I think the biggest one was avoiding conflict, but there were ancillary ones, especially from the American perspective, which was really about human rights.
[05:13]
B
And.
[05:13]
A
And, you know, basically, I think the Americans had, for a long time post World War II, really believed that allowing a Soviet sphere of influence had essentially imprisoned millions and millions of people, especially across Eastern Europe. And so it was really important to the American side. And Reagan said it in the room. You know, we use the declassified transcripts to work through the script. You know, I used. There's some verbatim straight out of the transcripts. And so, you know, the Americans came to it with a perspective that human rights were also important, that the ability of the people in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union to have freedom of travel, freedom of speech, all these kinds of things. And so it was Gorbachev, I think, in his willingness to not use force, ultimately to oppress people. That really was the connection that Reagan and Gorbachev made, that they. They were two human beings who put their humanity first before their ideology, before their, you know, political systems and economic systems. And that ultimately was the breakthrough. They were able to have trust. And once that trust was established, then everything else was possible.
[06:27]
B
There's a famous Reagan line that has. Has survived this time period and is still used today. He would say, trust. Did you know what I was going to say?
[06:39]
A
Yes, trust but verify.
[06:41]
B
Right?
[06:42]
A
Yeah.
[06:42]
B
Is this where that line comes from?
[06:45]
A
Yes, this is where that line comes from.
[06:48]
B
And so there's a tagline somewhere for the, for the film. It says, can you trust an enemy?
[06:53]
A
Right.
[06:54]
B
So how did Reagan come. Come to make this deal with our perceived pop culture at the time? Told us that the Soviets were our greatest enemies?
[07:06]
A
Yes. Well, I think that phrase that you referenced, trust but verify, was a. You know, he was a very savvy negotiator. You know, ultimately Reagan and he. That was a Russian parable. You know, he was quoting it in Russian to Gorbachev, and I'm going to butcher the Russian, so I'll try to avoid that. But it's trust but verify in English. And, you know, the thing that he really said was, let's make a relationship. Let's build trust in this room and then verify what we can do in the real world based on that. That if we're going to say, hey, let's find an agreement to reduce nuclear arms, then how do we verify it? Becomes what do we do to verify that? And that was stuff that they left to advisors, to the generals to figure out. But the. The key factor to Reagan was that they had had 40 years of evidence of the Soviets, you know, cheating on, you know, different control measures. And so. And I think, you know, on the Gorbachev side, on the Russian side, I think that it was a shocking moment to be asked to open their system, but it was one they were willing to do. And it's one of these crazy, true things in history that I think we've forgotten. But up until a few years ago into the Ukraine conflict, they still allowed Russian and American planes to fly over our countries and just check on our nuclear sites. And it's kind of surreal to think about, at least to me, growing up so many years after this, to think About a Russian plane flying over South Dakota or wherever to check the silos.
[08:42]
B
Yeah. So the big aspect of this negotiation is over reducing our nuclear arsenals for both countries.
[08:53]
A
Yes.
[08:54]
B
Talk about that. Talk about what trips them up in these negotiations.
[09:01]
A
Well, they both brought a lot of ideas about how to do it to the table, and both brought up a lot of different things that they wanted to talk about. But the key factor was that they had 70,000 nuclear weapons pointed at each other. And Gorbachev said to Reagan, I was very inspired by your first campaign where you call for nuclear zero. And so he. In this crazy true moment, he slides a piece of paper across the table that says, we're willing to reduce the nuclear weapons in Europe to zero. And all of a sudden, dialogue opens and they start to negotiate and they start to realize where the lines are for each person. And they get so far that at one point they had a deal to get rid of all nuclear weapons on Earth, and it falls apart over one word. This is all true. It's on the transcripts. But I would say to find out the word, Bob, you gotta go to the theater on August 14th to find out what the one word was.
[09:58]
B
And if I'm not mistaken, the negotiations break down, Right?
[10:03]
A
Yes, Correct.
[10:03]
B
And Reagan, he's gonna stay there, and it gets later and later at night, and he wants to. He tells his. And this is off a memory, and correct me if I'm wrong, he. He tells Nancy, I'm gonna be home by dinner.
[10:14]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
[10:15]
B
Right. Isn't that true?
[10:16]
A
Yeah, that's right.
[10:18]
B
It doesn't happen. Right. They don't. And they don't have a. But we talked at the. Before we started the interview about our mutual friend Pete Souza.
[10:26]
A
Yes.
[10:26]
B
Who was Reagan's photographer at the time, who took. And I'm. For those listening, you can't see, but for those watching, these are the photos of when it breaks down. This is a photo of when it breaks down. And if you look at Reagan's face there, you can just see the disappointment and the frustration.
[10:46]
A
Yeah.
[10:47]
B
So we're not going to mention the word. Yeah.
[10:49]
A
We're not going to mention the word spoilers.
[10:51]
B
I know that word. I think I know that word. Okay. George Schultz.
[10:55]
A
Yes.
[10:56]
B
He was Secretary of State. Is it correct that I read that a lot of what you guys were. You had access to his notes?
[11:06]
A
Yeah. So I owe him. I mean, truly, Bob, like, in a most human way, I owe him. He's a hero of mine. He's one of only two people in history to serve in four different cabinet positions. You know, he was a Marine in World War II. He devoted his whole life to public service. And so the film. My thing for him was the film was dedicated to him. Like, you know, he devoted himself to the American people and public service, and I wanted to honor that.
[11:31]
B
Did you ever get to meet him?
[11:33]
A
I did. I met him several times. I interviewed him for hours. And he gave me the declassified transcripts. They were still stamped classified at the top, which was a little unnerving for me. But they. They were recently declassified, and he gave me those, and that was what formed the basis of the script. And he told incredible stories. One of the more profound things that I put in the film but just shocked me was he said the first time he saw the two military officers holding both nuclear footballs, the controls for all the nuclear weapons on earth, in this room. These two guys facing off against one another, one Soviet, one American. And he just thought, wow, if we just press the button, it's all over right here. So that was really incredible.
[12:19]
B
And you were able to film this in the actual room where it happened?
[12:23]
A
We filmed in the actual room where it happened.
[12:25]
B
Talk about the vibes.
[12:28]
A
The vibes were intense, I can tell you that much. I mean, not only the room, we had the. You know, they went to the archives in Iceland and got the paintings back on the wall.
[12:36]
B
They.
[12:36]
A
The guys, Jeff and Jared are sitting in the seats where Reagan and Gorbachev sat. And so if you're a history nerd like me, you know, that was about as the pinnacle as you could get. You know, we were in that room. The North Atlantic waves are crashing, you know, outside. The poor sound design team, you know, they had to record with the wind coming through the house off the North Atlantic. So it was about as real as we could make it.
[13:03]
B
Yeah, I know from doing location film. Sound in another life, you want it silent in there. You add that stuff in later.
[13:12]
A
Yes, correct.
[13:13]
B
So I'm sure the soundmen were going nuts.
[13:15]
A
They were going nuts. And, you know, remember, these chairs are, you know, more than 40 years old. So they're squeaking, you know, and the guys are moving around. And, you know, you got cameras in there, we got dollies in there. It's, you know, it was a challenge for the sound department.
[13:29]
B
The battle between camera department and the sound department is never ending.
[13:33]
A
Never end.
[13:35]
B
So was it hard to get. Get these archival materials? I mean, you know, what's the. Is there a. Is there a process for this? Obviously, there must be. And was it challenging?
[13:46]
A
Yes. It was. I mean, we did tons of research. I mean, I did tons of research for the script, you know, interviewing people, reading, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then for the production process, we did everything humanly possible. And to come back to Pete Souza, his, his proofs that we drew out of the National Security Archives still had his name on him in, written in his kind of, you know, pen and, or, or even grease pencil. I think some of them had the grease pencil marks still on them. And so we took those. We go to the costumer, right, and she would have the ties. We couldn't find the ties that the guys wore. So you had to go and 3D print the ties. You know, we would go and, and take in the production designer and say, we need, you know, we need it to look like this. And, you know, a funny kind of weird aside is that, you know, Hofti, the house where it happened is right in the middle of Iceland. And so Iceland has kind of grown up around it. So, you know, it came right down to the, like, the camera angles that we had to choose in order to make sure we weren't showing this bank building, you know, that's like right next to Hofti now.
[14:51]
B
Yeah, this is 40 some years ago. Yeah, 40 years ago.
[14:55]
A
Yeah.
[14:57]
B
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Today my guest is Michael Russell Gunn. He's the writer and director of new movie the Brink of War, which is out on August 14th. Remember, send us your burning questions about American history. You can do that at our new website, AmericanHistoryHotline.com that's AmericanHistoryHotline.com. now back to the show. Michael, how does the film end? I don't want you. We're not going to give it away. We're not going to give it away for free here. But would you say this meeting was the end of the Cold War?
[15:36]
A
I think certainly it was the beginning of the end of the Cold War. And I think that the relationship that they built, Reagan and one side and Gorbachev on the other side, the relationship that they built, led directly to the end of the Cold War. And even more so than that, it's an interesting perspective. I think sometimes we get a little myopic in our perspectives in history. And the truth of it was the Americans, we were the Americans, we were the ones who thought it was a failure at the time. And then we were frustrated and we walked away thinking he was a failure. Even Schultz had his doubts, but the Soviets knew immediately that they had had A breakthrough. Gorbachev goes right to a press conference and says, this is a great meeting. Like, we made real progress here. And so what the film does is it's a little bit of a. The perspective shift in that the last few minutes of the film shift in a kind of philosophical way to the Soviet perspective, to see how this was the beginning of the end of the Cold War. And so it's an incredible monologue that J.K. simmons does completely off book and with no playback. You'll appreciate this, Bob. No playback whatsoever. He just did it. And we all looked at each other on set and couldn't believe it. But he gives this monologue where he says, we didn't know, but this was it. And so it's an incredible thing that I think has been lost to history. It's one of the most pivotal moments in human history.
[17:06]
B
The film feels relevant to right now, to what's going on, to United States, Russia relations.
[17:13]
A
Yes.
[17:15]
B
Two countries that are still enemies. Things are complicated. Talk about that for a second. Talk about what you've thought about kind of personally in making this film. In where we've come, our two nations and the complex relationship, it seems like Putin is in some ways looking to regain what Gorbachev gave away.
[17:45]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think Putin was famously a KGB officer stationed in East Germany. He views the fall of the Soviet Union as one of the great tragedies that befell his country. And so I think. Yeah, I think he is diametrically opposed to Gorbachev's vision for peace. And so I think things are fraught in a way. And some of the treaties that Reykjavik led to, the INF Treaty, which reduced nuclear arms, these were pivotal moments in human history where for the first time, people voluntarily agreed to give up weapons that had never happened. And these were the worst kind of weapons, right, the nuclear weapons. And so what comes out of Reykjavik is this ultimately a 90% reduction of nuclear weapons. It's hard to fathom that, but 90%. And for the first time, these agreements are expiring. You know, China is, you know, building more nuclear weapons now than they have before. Russia is building more tactical weapons. So the first time since these events, we have this kind of history echoing back at us, rhyming back at us.
[18:59]
B
And also, we are locked in an actual hot war, not a cold war, with a nation that seeks to build nuclear weapons. And there's nuclear materials in the balance here. Is there a way? Can this meeting between Reagan and Gorbachev somehow inform the current administration with how to go about negotiating with Iran? Or are these just completely different things, different times, different people? Are we just kind of in unchartered territory?
[19:32]
A
It's a great question, I think, that we've all gotten so used. There's this great phrase I think we all know, especially US History fans, is that history, if you don't learn it, you're doomed to repeat it kind of thing. I personally think that's a little bit of a misnomer that there is. There's no direct linkage. Reagan's been passed, unfortunately, for 20 years. He governed 40 years ago. This idea that we can draw direct parallels, I think is a little bit of a mistake. It kind of lets people off the hook in dealing with the situations as they present themselves. And so I think the critical factor is that the themes of being willing to engage with somebody is always important, and it's not just at the geopolitical level. You know, I made this film because, you know, I've said it to my producers many times, but I think we've gotten so gosh darn good at yelling at one another, we've forgotten how to talk to one another. And I think that that's our neighbors, that's our communities, that's. It informs everything. And so that's the reason I made the film. I wanted to make the film about two men who had every reason to hate one another and disagree, and yet still they found a way to talk that was inspiring to me.
[20:52]
B
Why did the negotiations take place in Iceland? Oh, why Iceland?
[20:58]
A
Why Iceland? So the answer is quite simple, actually. In the end of the day, they chose Iceland because it was incredibly secure. This was an impromptu meeting. It. It came together in a couple of weeks, literally. And they decided they need the most secure place they could find. And here was this little house on the coast of Iceland with nothing else around it in the middle of an island in the middle of the North Atlantic. So it was a really secure place. And so they did that, and they were successful. That it was. You know, they didn't have committees, they didn't have press. They just had these guys in this little house. And a funny little tidbit from history that isn't out there yet, but I hope people enjoy in the film, is that the Icelandic people definitely believe that it's haunted. So here you've got Reagan and Gorbachev in a haunted house in Iceland, trying to figure out the fate of the world.
[21:55]
B
It's the setting. It is the setting that just feels like it made all that came from it possible.
[22:04]
A
Yes, 100% so before I let you
[22:08]
B
go, the actors we know, Jeff Daniels is an incredible actor based on his body of work. Can you let us in your knowledge of how he prepared to play Ronald Reagan?
[22:25]
A
Well, Jeff, as you alluded, Jeff, is an incredible actor. He's done everything. I first got to know him on the Newsroom. I came up under Aaron Sorkin. He was my. He's my mentor. And I'm watching this guy. Do, you know, if, you know, film? He's doing like, 12 pages a day, this Sorkin dialogue. And I thought, man, you know, this is the guy that I grew up watching, like, do arachnophobia and dumb and dumber and, like, you know. You know, everything. Purple Rosa, Chiro. I was like, how's this guy not have, like, two Oscars on his mantle already? Like, who is this guy? And so for. So the first thing was I knew he could handle it. So when I wrote it, I knew he could do it. I had seen him. He's. He's incredible.
[23:03]
B
It was always him in your mind.
[23:04]
A
It was. It was always him. And he. And he. And it was really a question of, like, does he want to. So I, you know, I write him this letter, and I send it to his agent and say, you know, read the script. Tell me. And so. And luckily, he did. Luckily, he wanted to do it. And he brought. He spent six or seven months on the accent, you know, watching video, listening. He'd bike around his, you know, neighborhood listening to Reagan's voice. He got in the chair for two hours a day to get the makeup and hair right. And so he really brought it. And he never left set. If you've ever been on a film set or a TV set, usually the actors you cut, they walk off set, they go to their trailer. He wouldn't leave. He stayed there. We relit. We turned the cameras around, and he just stayed right there in that chair.
[23:52]
B
Absolutely amazing. I've been talking with Michael Russell Gunn. He's the writer and director of the new movie the Brink of War, which is out August 14th. Go see it. I know I will. Michael, thank you for joining us today on American History Hotline.
[24:07]
A
Thank you so much, Bob.