The Characters Of The Greatest Story Of All Time Daniel Grace's In The Wake Of Golgatha

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Characters Of The Greatest Story Of All Time – Daniel Grace's "In The Wake Of Golgatha"

Arroe Collins Like It's Live | Host: Arroe Collins

Guest: Daniel Grace | Date: March 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a thoughtful and probing conversation between host Arroe Collins and author Daniel Grace about Grace’s novel, “In The Wake of Golgatha.” The discussion centers on reimagining biblical characters Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate in a literary crime fiction context, exploring themes of guilt, redemption, discomfort, and the reinterpretation of myth and history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power and Symbolism of the Book Cover

(01:51 – 03:04)

• Arroe and Daniel dissect the visual elements of the book’s cover—particularly the tree at its center, evoking Eden and the Tree of Life as well as a more foreboding, "dead" tree flanked by their names.
• Daniel discusses his intent with the cover, emphasizing the “hands reaching out from below” and collaborating with his design team to create something striking and symbolic.
  • Daniel Grace: “To me, the tree…[is] kind of the antithesis view of a tree, of almost this dark, dare I say, dead reaching, dramatic tree…I kind of sense chills up my spine.” (02:24)

Literary versus Religious Narrative

(03:04 – 04:33)

• Arroe clarifies that, though based on infamous biblical figures, this is not a "religious book" but rather a piece of literary crime fiction.
• Daniel underscores his intention not to write a devotional or religious text, but rather to reimagine “two characters that have been kind of lynched by history, religion, and culture," exploring universal themes of crime, punishment, guilt, and redemption.

Timelessness, Reincarnation, and Universality

(04:33 – 05:50)

• Arroe draws parallels between the characters’ historical journey and Buddhist notions of reincarnation, suggesting a kind of spiritual echo across time.
• Daniel positions the novel as the story of “every man”—about modern and historical cycles of guilt, addiction, violence, and the quest for second chances.
  • Daniel Grace: “Again, because this is also a story about every man… Do we live in this sort of cyclical spin of guilt? Or can we break through? Do we reach out? Do we seek help?” (05:04)

The Necessity and Value of Discomfort

(07:09 – 09:00)

• Arroe praises how the book leans into discomfort and provokes reader introspection, planting questions instead of easy answers.
• Daniel expands on the function of discomfort in literature—exploring the brutal realities of history, mythology, religion, and violence.
  • Daniel Grace: “When you’re talking about religion…that’s a bloody history, and that’s an uncomfortable history. So when I talk about discomfort…embrace that violence, that strength, that weakness, to truly appreciate every step.” (07:42)
• He challenges the tendency to "whitewash" or romanticize difficult history and advocates for a raw, honest exploration.

Writing Process: Embracing Darkness for Authenticity

(09:00 – 10:26)

• Arroe asks how Daniel managed the emotional toll of embodying such discomfort in his writing.
• Daniel shares his writing mantra:
  • Daniel Grace: “Find a dark, uncomfortable space and get lost in it.” (09:08)
• He emphasizes the value in “getting dirty in those conversations,” whether discussing crucifixion or contemporary issues like addiction.

Journey to Golgotha: Physical and Metaphorical Ascent

(10:26 – 12:18)

• Arroe asks about Daniel’s emotional response to visiting Golgotha and drawing on that experience in the novel.
• Daniel describes both literal and figurative ascents:
  • Daniel Grace: “…when you start reassessing the characters that were responsible…for Christ’s crucifixion and kind of their lynching in history, that air can get very tight, right? You feel that little bit less oxygen in your brain because you’re daring to step on places where your subconscious is saying, hey, this is taboo.” (10:46)
• He contends that discomfort and confronting taboos can illuminate "a different light on what you thought you knew."

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Memorable Quotes

• Arroe Collins: "When a book cover comes together...it's so important. This is not necessarily a story, a book of religion. This is a literary crime fiction here. Dude, you cross over into an area that I don't think I've ever touched before." (03:04)
• Daniel Grace: "These are two characters that have been lynched by history and religion and culture and kind of reimagine their timeless tumble…not to kind of lean into the religious…really I wanted to write a story about crime and punishment, about guilt and sin and redemption." (03:30)
• Daniel Grace: "Do we live in this sort of cyclical spin of guilt? Or can we break through? Do we reach out? Do we seek help?" (05:04)
• Daniel Grace: "Find a dark, uncomfortable space and get lost in it." (09:08)
• Daniel Grace: "It's in those moments of slightly restricted oxygen…that can shine. That's where you start to find…you're shining a different light on what you thought you knew." (11:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Book cover and symbolism: 01:51–03:04
• Crime fiction, not religious text: 03:04–04:33
• Timelessness and reincarnation: 04:33–05:50
• Discomfort as literary device: 07:09–09:00
• Writing process and embracing darkness: 09:00–10:26
• Experience on Via Dolorosa/Golgotha: 10:26–12:18

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Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is candid, energetic, and reflective, marked by Arroe’s curiosity and genuine admiration for Daniel’s approach to storytelling—and Daniel’s willingness to lean into uncomfortable territory, both in his process and on the page. The dialogue provokes listeners to question simplified historical narratives, embrace discomfort, and reconsider the universal search for redemption.

Arroe closes: “I am such a fan of your written word...please come back to this show and just know in your heart that the door is always going to be open for you.” (12:18)

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This summary covers the full, content-rich dialogue while omitting advertisements and other non-essential segments.

Transcript

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[Arrow]

I don't know if you've checked it out yet. Arrow.netarroe.net it's not just a podcast. It is a network of podcasts. 20 to choose from. One of those podcasts include YA Authors Unplugged. YA authors are in touch. So much so those in Hollywood, actors, directors and everybody else of decision making, they're making their way to a YA author journey. Why then you gotta check it out. YA authors unplugged on arrow.net, a R R O E.net enjoy your exploration.

[Daniel Grace]

Hello Arrow.

[Arrow]

Hey Daniel. How are you doing today?

[Daniel Grace]

Just fantastic. I'm excited to chat with you.

[Arrow]

Oh man, when you use that word fantastic, I know that street you speak. So therefore that means you live it. Not just now, but every day.

[Daniel Grace]

There you go. It also speaks to the amount of caffeine that I drink.

[Arrow]

Listen to you. We gotta talk about the book cover. And the reason why is because I see so much. I am a cover whore. I'm going to tell you that right now. And what I see upon your book cover here, which would draw me instantly to it. I love the fact that you have Daniel on the left side, Grace on the other. And what could be the Joshua tree or the burning bush in the middle with novel, Is that the fruit? I mean, you've got so much energy on this front cover that it inspires the imagination to say what's going on here?

[Daniel Grace]

Thank you. That's a great setup. You know, to me, the tree Right. You kind of go back to the symbolic element of Eden and the tree of life and all the way through. Kind of the role of trees in every religion and throughout history is so fascinating. And yet to take kind of the antithesis view of a tree of almost this dark, dare I say, dead reaching, dramatic tree, I just, I kind of sense chills up my spine. When I work with my design team at Kohler Books to create it. I thought, oh my goodness, then with the hands reaching out from below was something pretty dramatic.

[Arrow]

See, and that's what I love about it, when a book cover comes together because a lot of readers don't understand the process that we go through because we can put words on a page. But when it comes to that cover, it's so important. And I do want listeners to understand this is not necessarily a story, a book of religion. This is a literary crime fiction here. I mean, dude, you really, you cross over into an area that I don't think I've ever touched before.

[Daniel Grace]

I hope that's a good thing. You know, it's so interesting when, when I was kind of confronted with this fascination of these two historically damned biblical characters of Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate, what was so fascinating is, as I tiptoed down this lane was. Was not wanting to write kind of a religious tale, right? This is really a story about, you know, two characters that have been kind of lynched by history and religion and culture and kind of reimagine their, their timeless tumble, right? And it's an interesting tightrope. It was an interesting dance to kind of go down this path. And the intention being, you know, not to kind of lean into the religious, despite the fact these are too, you know, clearly religious characters whose roles were paramount in fulfilling kind of the greatest story. And yet really I wanted to write a story about crime and punishment, about guilt and sin and redemption.

[Arrow]

What I love about this is I have written for 34 years with my daily writing, and I am a true believer that we are not in this present place of now without having a history before us, which then takes me right into Buddhism, which means we've lived this life before. So to see that Pontus as well as Judah is in this storyline, I'm going. I knew it. I knew I wasn't the only one that was going to do this. In the way of understanding that we travel through history and Judah as Jude Issachar and Pontus as Peter Pfeiffer. This is perfect shoes that you have

[Daniel Grace]

them placed in, you know, and ultimately Again, because this is also a story about every man. This is a story about you and I, A story about kind of our own past sins and future redemptions and kind of that echo through history and. And what do we do with that? And what do we do in our own journey and quest for redemption? Do we live in this sort of cyclical spin of guilt? Or can we break through? Do we reach out? Do we seek help? And that's why, kind of touching on, on aspects of. Of friendship, of. Of addiction. All right. Of violence. This is, this is an uncomfortable story that I felt was worth having a second look at because ultimately it's also a story about second chances.

[Arrow]

Yeah, well, you definitely plant that seed in the way that, okay, we are in this moment of now and how many chances are we begging for every day? I mean, I think we're on 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 10th chance.

[Daniel Grace]

Dude, I think I'm well past that. I think I'm on 19.

[Arrow]

Please do not move. There's more with Daniel Grease coming up next.

[Megan McCardell]

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[Daniel Grace]

act together to solve problems where they are. You know, I am a believer in America and it's worth fighting for.

[Megan McCardell]

Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever you get.

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[Arrow]

u n d the name of the book. In the wake of Golgotha, we are back with author Daniel Grace. One of the most powerful things that you put inside these pages, and I love this. Discomfort is paramount. We can question mythology and see. I like that. Because we can. We can as readers, we can sit there, kind of put the book down and go, huh? Which I always call that my grandmother's remark to anything that happens in life, just huh. And you do that. You plant the huh in motion,

[Daniel Grace]

you know, And I think that's important. And I think, you know, whether it's history or whether it's current events for that matter, or whether it's religion or mythology, you know, there's two sides to every story, right? And I think oftentimes, especially with religious tales, I think they become, through time, two dimensional, and it becomes maybe a crutch, maybe a pillow. And there's a lot of benefit to that. But at the same time, you look at the power of these stories, and to me, if I were to embrace these stories, which I do, then I think it's worth having a hard look at it, right? And I think when you're talking about religion, you know, that's a bloody history, and that's an uncomfortable history. And so when I talk about discomfort, right, when I'm, you know, kind of thinking about crime and punishment, when we're thinking, dare I say the word, crucifixion, right, which so many of us, I don't want to say we take for granted, but it's. Do we think about the brutality of the act? Do we think about the violence involved at the origins of every religion? And I think it's. What I felt was important was to, you know, embrace that violence, embrace that strength, embrace that weakness, embrace to truly appreciate every step that was taken along

[Arrow]

the way as that writer. How did you embrace it? Because I can get a little squirrely sitting in my writing chair.

[Daniel Grace]

You know, that's. That's a good question. My perspective was, you know, every time I sat down to write, kind of my. I have sort of this motto, right? That's you kind of my writing mantra. And it's. It's find a dark, uncomfortable space and get lost in it. So. So for me, it was a question of, you know, almost getting into character, if you will, right? And kind of going back into history. Or when we're talking about, you know, drug overdoses on the streets of modern day New York City, or we're talking about the cushion chamber of a, you know, in modern times, you know, really, you know, looking at the dust on the floor, right, Looking at the blood stains in the. In the needle or on the pavement. And so, you know, not taking that almost romantic, fanciful view that, you know, oftentimes is just sort of whitewashed, if you will. And so to me, discomfort is. That's a good thing, right? And I think, you know, I think we live in an age where there are certain topics that you know, we, we. We can't approach or we can't touch when it comes to discomfort. And religion is one of them. Every religion, I think, you know, to me there is. There's greater value if. If we get dirty in those conversations.

[Arrow]

So now then, when you talk about that discomfort, word has it that you went to the top of the hill. Did you feel discomfort up there? Because I sit there. It makes me wonder myself if I went physically to that point in history that so many millions know, what would I feel if I were on top of that hill? And I think I would feel discomfort

[Daniel Grace]

so. In the lake of Golgotha. Right, so Golgotha is just. For your listeners who may not be aware, Golgotha is Calvary Hill. It's the razor. At the top of Via Dolorosa was the peak, the summit of Christ's Crucifixion. It's only 1600ft. It's a small hill, but it's the most infamous hill. And I'm someone having. Having traveled up that Via Dolorosa and someone who's scaled mountains of Kilimanjaro and the Dolomite and the Alps in Europe. And so to me, these journeys, again, it goes back to that, that discomfort, right? It's not a trek. It's. You're getting into spaces where the oxygen is thin. And when you start reassessing the characters that were responsible of, you know, ultimately for Christ's crucifixion and kind of their. Their lynching in history, that. That air can get very tight, right? You feel that. That little bit less oxygen in your. In your brain because you're daring to step on places where your subconscious is saying, hey, this is taboo. It's taboo to question these things. And I think it's in those moments of slightly restricted oxygen that I think you there. That can shine, right? And I think that's where you start to find a. You know, it's not. It's not a. It's not a different truth, but you're shining a different light on what you thought you knew.

[Arrow]

I just love where your heart is. 10 minutes with you is never going to be enough. So I have to say, please come back to this show and just know in your heart that the door is always going to be open for you. Daniel, I am so such a fan of your written word.

[Daniel Grace]

Well, I appreciate Arrow and I look forward to it. Thanks for taking the time to just chat briefly about my work in the wake of Golgotha.

[Arrow]

Well, you be brilliant today. Okay? Sir.

[Daniel Grace]

You too. Thank you so much.

[Howie Mandel]

Hey, it's Howie Mandel and I am inviting you to witness history as me and my How We do it gaming team take on Gilly The King Wallow 267's million dollars gaming in an epic global gaming league video game showdown. Four rounds, multiple games, one winner, plus a halftime performance by multi platinum artist Travy McCoy. Watch all the action and see who wins and advances to the championship match against Neo right [e-mail] that's globalgamingleague.com everybody games.

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