← Ask Lisa: The Psychology of Raising Tweens & Teens
Ask Lisa: The Psychology of Raising Tweens & Teens
258: What Do Parents Need to Know About Teens & Fan Fiction?
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A
Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about Rena.
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B
I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore.
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A
I'm Rena Neinen and welcome to Ask Lisa the Psychology of Raising Tweens and teens.
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And I'm Dr. Lisa Damore. We bring you science backed strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions and more.
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A
We decode tough parenting issues with tips you can use right now. So subscribe to Ask Lisa the Psychology of Raising Tweens and Teens and join our YouTube community. Today just Google Ask Lisa podcast.
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B
We're here to help you untangle family life.
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A
Episode 258 what Do Parents need to know about teens and fan fiction? I mean, you just gotta tell people, Lisa, how the heck did we come up with today's episode?
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C
Because we got the greatest letter and it is something that has been on my mind over time. And then every once in a while, you know, something I've been thinking about. Then the perfect letter lands in our inbox. And frankly, I was so excited. I was so excited.
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A
It just makes me laugh that you had been tailing this already. And then we get a letter in our inbox. I want to get right to it because this is something I did not expect we'd be taken on. Hi Dr. Lisa, I just listened to your episode. My kid looked at porn. What should I do? And I found it very helpful. I hope you can answer this question. I found out that my 13 year old son has been reading porn fiction on fictionpress.com and fanfiction.net the novels are pretty graphic for an 8th grader. How can I approach my son? Should I? My husband says he's okay with it, but I do not feel comfortable. I am concerned. Thank you for your help. First off, what the heck is this? Lisa?
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C
Okay, I'm really glad you're asking because
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I think for a lot of families this is something that kids know about but the parents themselves don't know about.
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C
And it's actually important to orient yourself to it. Okay, so here's the bottom line.
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B
There are these online platforms. The two that were mentioned in the letter are good examples where people I really think of all ages, but it may move.
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C
Probably not people in their 50s and 60s, probably younger than that. Take characters who exist in the fictional
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B
world and make new stories about them. So it'll be like new stories about
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C
all the Harry Potter characters or new stories about all of the characters from
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B
Sherlock Holmes or whatever. And they submit These stories to these platforms. The stories are of varying lengths and they actually put codes on the stories
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C
of ratings, roughly something like G, PG17
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B
are and even content. So it could be like violent or
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C
romantic is how, at least on fanfiction.net the sexual stories are coded and people
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B
can contribute and people can read. And it's a community where there's a lot of feedback and people can spend a lot of time there. It has.
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C
So this is like non smutty sides. It's a lot of it is naughty fiction and a lot of it's not.
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B
I mean, it's not all sexual.
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C
But what this kid is looking at and what lots of kids are looking at is kind of sexual. And Reena, I just thought you would like just to kind of orient us
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to how spicy some of this can be.
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I printed off one quick description of one story that will help people quickly understand what we're talking about here.
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B
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Desire.
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C
So this is a play on Goblet of Fire.
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And the description from the author is the exploration of the world of Harry Potter through the eyes of bi Harry Potter, who is sex obsessed and entirely insane. Sex, comma, sadism, comma, masochism, comma, and other strange themes abound. This is Harry Potter and the Goblet of Desire. Okay, so that's what we're looking at here.
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A
Wow, even you're blushing right now. Lisa, what is going on? I mean, are you okay with this? Are you okay with this?
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B
Well, am I okay with it? That's a really good question.
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C
Of course, the reason I love my job is the phenomenology of what teenagers can come up with next never ceases to be the most interesting thing in the world.
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B
There's parts I'm okay with and there's parts I'm not. And I actually think, and I think this actually about a lot of the pornographic stuff that kids have access to. I think adults should be looking at it. I think adults should actually take some time and engage it because it really helps to orient you to what you're actually dealing with. So I think that about things like pornhub.com, which is. Oh, my God, Rena. Like, it's intense and if it's not something you look at on your own time, you're gonna wanna look at it so you understand what kids are looking at. I think the same is true with these fanfiction sites.
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A
So I wanna step back for a second. Like, you know, there have been like Playboys and when you're 13 and the hormones are going, is this developmentally appropriate that they're sort of looking for these sexual stories at 13?
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B
Yeah, I think exactly like the examples you give. Like kids have passed around a Playboy for generations, right? My age group, it was Forever by Judy Blum was like the spicy book and they were sort of interested in reading that. Right? So I think it's so important for us to always bear in mind, like, there's very little new under the sun in terms of what teenagers are organized around world around them changes. But like if your kid is like, hey, hey, hey, I just found fan
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fiction and there's some really muddy stuff.
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B
There's nothing wrong with your kid. This is adolescence. This is typical. How we should parent through it. Those are interesting questions, but like, right, this is kids. This is adolescence. I've been aware for a while that nonstick cookware, which I kind of like does have coatings on it that are not good for us or the environment. Enter Caraway cookware. These are ceramic pots and pans. And one thing that's amazing about ceramic is that it's sort of naturally non stick, so you don't need a lot of oil or butter to get your eggs to slide right off of it. And it also cleans up easy because things aren't sticking to it. Caraway's cookware set is a favorite for a reason, and it can save you up to $190 versus buying the items individually. Plus, if you visit CarawayHome.com you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.comasklisa or use code asklisa at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern.
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A
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Well, I love that that was included in the letter because I think it really does get at something. Whereas, you know, the mom who wrote is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this stuff is graphic. And by her report, the dad is like, I'm fine with it. And I don't know really what's going on with that dad. But it's easy for me to imagine that the dad is like, compared to what's out there, right? Compared to watching video, which is an interesting thing. The video versus the written of, you know, very graphic sex. If my 13 year old son wants
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C
to have, you know, read about romantic activity between, you know, Harry and, and this is often interesting, Percy, like they'll
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cross characters from different things. So like the Percy Jackson characters will have romantic interludes.
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Percy Jackson, Yeah. There's nothing more innocent than Percy Jackson. Lisa.
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Well, well, Rena, a visit to fanfiction.net
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will give you a different take on it, but my hunch is that that's where the dad's at. He's like, oh my God, are you kidding? This is like the least of what's out there. I'm not saying, like, it's fine, it's fine, it's nothing. But I think for me, having cared for teenagers for so long in the universe of ways that kids can push boundaries, I will take reading fan fiction over, you know, drugs, outrageous behavior, super dangerous stuff any day. And there is a need in adolescence to push some boundaries. So this is a tough one because I'm not all in, I'm not all out. But I think we need to kind of put it in context about like other things teenagers do.
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I'm just curious what Harry Potter's doing with his wand. Like, this is a whole new world. I have no idea what you are talking about here. I mean, is there anything though that gives you pause for that? I mean, there's still 13, right? You know, that porn episode is one that so many parents have written to us that, you know, they keep going back to. But is there anything that you think even in this realm of this isn't the worst of the things teens could be doing? Especially, you know, I think 13 is still young, and you're still kind of might not know everything about sexuality at that point.
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B
Right? Well, that's exactly right. If you go read some of what's there, like, it's. It's weird, right? And it's not really how sex works, and it doesn't really make sense. And. And I think what we have to grapple with as the adults around teenagers these days is that they're learning about sex online, right? And some kids are learning by looking at incredibly graphic pornography visually. And some kids may be thinking they're learning about it by reading about what Snape and Professor McGonagall are up to. So here's this parent. She's got this thing. I think one reasonable action that's somewhere between trying to shut it down, which is actually very hard to do, and saying nothing, is that she could go to her son and say, look, I just realized that you're looking at stuff. I thought this was all much tamer than it is. I realize that there's stuff there that's actually pretty spicy. Just to be clear, I read through some of the stories. This is not what human sexuality typically looks like.
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C
Some of this stuff isn't even physically possible.
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B
We're here to have conversations with you about healthy, positive, physical intimacy. But just to be clear, the stuff you're reading, it's like cartoon, weird, violent, in some places stuff. It's not what sex is really about or for or, like, I think that, you know, the kid will, you know, try to. Probably try to fake a stroke to get out of that conversation. But, like, I think it's a conversation probably worth saying, and I think those are words that are worth saying as a way to try to put some boundary around it.
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A
This sort of reminds me of this episode. I think it was episode 106 where it's, should I give my teen the sex talk? Am I too late, essentially, is what that episode talks about. But you're saying you should have this conversation. But do kids really want to hear our viewpoint on sex? Like, do they just shut down? And does it register?
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B
I think it's does. I know it does. We actually have research showing that when we articulate our values and tell kids what we think, that they do take it in, and it does shape their thinking and their behavior. They don't and this is a topic that comes up often. I think it's really important. They don't give us the satisfaction of being like, well, I'm really glad you told me that. They will be like, throw myself from the car. But I think it's still really important to do. I will say though, Reena, and this is not a small thing, you know how different it is to read something versus watch something, right? Like reading a story versus watching the story, right? Like I remember as a kid, like I don't like horror movies at all. And I remember like when I was like a young adolescent, like seeing like something and like I still have this like icky visual from that. Whereas, you know, I think if we read stuff, you can stop, you can picture it in your own way, but you can't unsee stuff. So again, if we just put this on a continuum of totally tame, G rated, nobody has to even think about it to super, way out of bounds, not okay stuff. I am going to make an argument that the fact that this is written is a factor in terms of making it tamer than the other stuff that kids are definitely looking at, right? I mean, it's not like they're not looking at stuff that is, for a lot of adults, pretty hair curling.
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A
You know, there's just so many outlets where you can get sexual content now in a way, back in our days, it was you watched a rated X or rated R movie, right? Or you, your, one of your parents got the Playboy magazine, you know, or you snuck it or whatever it is. But now it comes so readily. How can we have these open conversations with our kids, whether it's this or something else, like what really works? Because I feel like you get out of this window where they're 15, 16, 17 years old and have I have I totally missed that window.
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B
I think thinking about it in that kind of time frame is right, you know, that you want to be out in front of this. You know, you don't want your kids to be wandering around in these worlds without your voice in their head. And so, you know, 13, who knows how long he's been looking at it. But this is a great time to have this conversation. I would say to families, as soon as your kid has access to digital technology that is not, you know, incredibly limited and minimal, you need to say there's a big wide Internet and there's a lot of sexual stuff out there. And of course it's all getting weirder by the minute with AI and making AI stuff, right? And so I think it's a two part conversation. One is it actually becomes a conversation about why we're going to continue to keep really tight controls on this, use filters at home, ask you not to go searching for this. It's a conversation about we're going to try to keep this from finding its way to you by accident or on purpose because it's pretty disturbing and strange stuff. There's that conversation and then I think side by side with that, there's the conversation about, hey, let's talk about what healthy intimacy is really about. And it's mutual, it's tender, it's kind, it's wanted by both parties. That's what healthy intimacy is really about. And I think there's value in saying both of those parts of the conversation and I think there's value in saying them by depending where your kid is with digital technology, maybe even as young as 10. And what I like about the language of healthy physical intimacy is you don't even have to be talking about intercourse. It's a way to sort of introduce the idea of when people are intimate with each other.
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A
So sex is awkward and you're saying we don't have to necessarily spell it out and say it's sex, just use the umbrella of intimacy. I mean, you're the only person who's ever spoken to me about what healthy intimacy looks like. I don't, I don't think most people have ever had this conversation in their life.
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B
Right. I mean, I think, I think we don't. I think our kids need to hear it. I also think, Rena, there's a sort of a. There may be, you know, in the universe of these fan fiction worlds, which are enormous given the rating system, there may actually be some tamer, sweeter stuff. Right. There may be, for lack of a
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C
better word, like maybe sort of some soft erotica that we're like, you know what? If you're going to learn about sex, like this is not the worst way to learn about, you know, this is sort of like lovely and nice in a way.
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B
There may be that version of it. The other thing, and this isn't in the letter, but I think this is also a big deal. You remember those Harlequin romances?
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Remember those books at the grocery store on those, like.
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Yeah, so those.
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I don't know where the harlequin world
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stands, but like kids are also looking at physical books that are. That have kind of erotic stuff in them. And I would say it's probably more of the like teen to early young adult. But I was sort of like Doing
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some look into this and like there's
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this series, the Black Onyx series, which
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like, even the name kind of tells you, like, it's a little bit maybe
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low brow, but you know, where there's. And they call it Romantasy and it's like these romance books that have these fantasy, you know, universes with them. And if you are into Romantasy, which there's a big universe, I think it's a lot of young women who are into Romantasy. Well, interestingly, TikTok will tell you what to read next, right? So there. So it's all out there. And I think that there are a wide range of what kids can engage with and what young people can engage with. And I think we can take steps to try to keep the most, I will just call it offensive stuff away from them. I think there is value, especially the visual. It cannot be unseen. But I think as for the rest, it's about saying, here's what we believe as a family and here's what we think intimacy is really about. And you know, kids are going to read what they're going to read sometimes. And you know, we snuck forever and kids can sneak stuff now and we shouldn't fight that all the time. We shouldn't assume we can win that fight, I guess is the way I would say it.
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D
Raising tweens and teens comes with a lot of questions, and Lisa and I are here to help you find answers.
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B
That's right. And if you like the Ask Lisa podcast, you'll love my free weekly newsletter that delivers seasoned parenting guidance right to your inbox.
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D
Every newsletter pivots off of a recent podcast episode to highlight key points in raising tweens and teens. This incredibly popular newsletter is a quick, easy read full of practical parenting guidance.
- [19:45]
B
So go to my website, drlisadamore.com to sign up for today.
- [19:50]
D
Lisa's weekly newsletter is one more way that we're here to help you untangle family life.
- [19:58]
A
If you discover whether it's smutty fan fiction or something erotic online that you see your kids are looking at, what's the appropriate way to respond so you don't shame somebody and you can kind of keep the line of communication open.
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B
I like you bringing up shame. Like, I think that that is the real danger here, a very real danger, right. Is that we go about this and
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we're like, what is wrong with you? Why would you be looking at this stuff?
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B
Right. No, I mean, because they're kids. So I think to say, you know, so I went to go search for a new recipe.
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C
And what came up on the computer was the last thing you were looking at.
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B
And I had no idea that Hermione was into that kind of stuff or whatever.
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C
Like, you know, like just be like,
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B
and just say, you know, I, I want to talk with you about this. I, you know, and then you share your version of whatever I'm recommending, right? You say what you need to say and if it's something that feels way out of bounds, you say, look, we're going to put limits around this because it's actually not healthy. I don't feel good about you seeing this. I don't think this is good for you to see. I mean, you can try to put limits on it, but I think, I think that you do need to sort of say, actually let me back it up. I think you do need to walk into these conversations that sexual development is part of healthy development. And I think that's hard for a lot of parents, right?
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Like, we just don't want our kids
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B
as a sexual creature. Totally. So if you can drape yourself in that, the idea that sexual development is part of healthy development and then you have two jobs. One is to try to help filter the sexual content that's coming kids way that we don't feel good about. And maybe you filter it with like literally trying to shut it down. And maybe you filter it by saying, listen, you're going to see stuff online that is just so not in line with what is what we believe as a family to be the decent, kind, loving treatment of humans. Right. Like, it's just not how we roll. That's a filter too. And then you're going to offer the alternative, which is, listen, physical intimacy is a wonderful thing. It's a great part of life. You know, we hope over time that you find the relationships that you can really have a great experience of that here are our values as a family around that. And then you say what you say, right? And some of that may be informed by your religion. Some of that may be informed by like what's appropriate at different ages or levels of relationship. You say your piece and your kids will hear you. Even if they, you know, kind of
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C
really, really, really, really want the conversation to end as fast as absolutely possible.
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A
Yeah. And you, I love that you've always taught us like these conversations don't have to be long, they can be short. And you can still make the point. Well, listen, I have never ever thought of Hermione or Dumbledore for any of these folks in this light. It's changed my perception. Is there anything else, Lisa, that I don't know that you want to tell us?
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B
Well, I think here's the other thing.
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C
Like, so, you know, I write. A lot of writing is part of my life.
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B
The writing is not good.
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C
Rena is pretty bad. You know, like, content aside.
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A
And there is okay with the storytelling, but the writing is actually what. What does her end the writing?
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Kidding. This.
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The kidding.
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This is a construction of it.
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B
But I just want to, like, I
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have two thoughts on this.
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B
Like, so one is, I believe as someone who writes that there's a lot of like, garbage in, garbage out. Like, if you read crappy writing, you're going to do crappy writing. Like, I believe that. I also believe that if you read really, like, high quality writing, it improves the quality of your writing. And I'm sure that, you know, there's gotta be research on this that backs me up. So there is this issue of like, okay, the writing is kind of poor, right?
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C
And so that may be something that a parent can decide is also an issue or not. I don't know that I would make it an issue, but I just want to flag it.
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B
But then the other thing is we're complaining all the time about how the fact that kids aren't reading and like, whatever else. This is reading and also like, whatever else, it's a community. And I don't know how, you know, otherwise integrated it is or supportive. I don't think there's a lot of sort of side conversation going on. But there may be. But like, setting aside the spicy sexual stuff that is weird and especially, you know, I'm going to flag that may also be violent and concerning. You know, we have to sort of accept that there are worse things than kids to be spending a lot of time reading and maybe writing and contributing to a community of creative activity. And there may be a way that we can support their interest in fanfiction that is not grossly inappropriate, but that it does have some benefits, even while
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C
perhaps saying, you know, but if you
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B
really want to read good writing, I
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can connect you with some better books or some better, better versions of that.
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B
So I just, I just, I can't
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help but be me about this. And there was a part of me
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B
that was like, oh, my God, this, like, writing is crap.
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C
So there was also that.
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A
Oh, that's funny. So, Lisa, as we wrap up, what is it that you have for us for parenting to go and how do we sort of put this into context?
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B
You know, the word you said shame. I Just like I want to go back to that. Steer clear of it at all costs. In my work As a psychologist, 30 years in, there's two feelings that I just find to be the most harmful for people. Helplessness. When people are helpless, they do not do well and they often act quite badly. And shame, like shame is like this sticky black tar in clinical work in our lives, if it is present, if it's introduced, it does so much damage, there's no upside to it around things like this. And so I'm so glad you raised it because I just whatever else parents do in these moments, and these are difficult moments, and we want to think them through carefully, if you just steer clear of shame, you're going to be on the right track.
- [26:15]
A
It's great advice, Lisa. You were the first one to sort of flag that to me why that's so important, to be cognizant of it. Well, thank you for topics in parenting that I never thought I would ever talk about, let alone be dissecting. So next week we're going to talk a little bit about why is Parent one Parent's teen so snarky. Snark is something that a lot of teenagers bring on. We want to dissect that and learn
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B
a little bit more.
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A
I'll see you next week.
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B
I'll see you next week.
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E
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to ask Lisa@drlisadamore.com and now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment therapy or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website@drlisademoore.com
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C
Sam.