← Ask Lisa: The Psychology of Raising Tweens & Teens
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- [00:02]
A
Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about.
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Rena. I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore.
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A
I'm Rena Neinen and welcome to Ask
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C
Lisa the Psychology of Raising Tweens and teens.
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B
And I'm Dr. Lisa Damore. We bring you science backed strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions and more.
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C
We decode tough parenting issues with tips
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A
you can use right now. So subscribe to Ask Lisa the Psychology of Raising Tweens and Teens and join our YouTube community. Today just Google Ask Lisa podcast.
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B
We're here to help you untangle family life.
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A
Episode 259 why is my teen so snarky? Well, that was quite an episode last week on Smutty Fan Fiction. Lisa.
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B
Yeah, well, have you checked it out? Have you taken a look?
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A
I, I, you know, can I tell you the silliness? Like I am now worried that if I start looking at that site that it's gonna change the algorithm in my home and start pushing stuff to my kids that they're unaware of.
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B
But all right, so maybe you need to go to some Internet, go to some Internet cafe arena and like, have at it. Have at it with this fan fiction.
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A
Well, I just don't want to change my opinion of Harry Potter too. There's that, but there's that.
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B
There's also that.
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A
So we talked a little bit about that. And you know what I loved about our conversation last week was it's still the topic of sex and how do you approach it and talk about it. But today we're moving on to another s. Snark. So many kids are so snarky and you, you have presented a whole other reason to me as to why they potentially could be. So I want to read you this letter that we got from a listener. Dear Dr. Lisa, my 15 year old daughter is snarky. Like really snarky. She was in seventh grade, a switch flipped and has been this way ever since. When she was in middle school, I went through a, quote, mourning period for my sweet, spunky, creative and curious daughter. I knew that snarkiness and teens go together like croissants and coffee. But I really think her behavior is more extreme than her peers. She says she hates school and complains a lot. She's on her phone all the time despite our best efforts to control it with the iPhone. Parent controls. Her behavior has been really hard on the family and her two younger sisters are always getting their feelings hurt. Despite Looking up to her so much recently, she opened up a little bit and she told me that she feels sad a lot despite working hard in school. She said that she feels less motivated and has even started going to bed around 10, when she's always been a night owl. I would love to hear your thoughts about the connections between irritability and teen depression and when a parent should worry. Thanks for your wisdom. I am always so grateful for your podcast. Okay, I love that we've got this issue brought up to the forefront, but do you think the parents should be worried here?
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B
I think yes. I think the parent is raising, especially towards the end of the letter, like, the real concern about, like, irritability. And one of the things that we've talked about, and I will take any opportunity to talk about, is that depression in teenagers often looks like irritability. It looks like snarkiness. It's how we miss depression in teenagers that people dismiss it of, like, oh, there goes a snarky teen. And so I think that there are very legitimate questions to be asked here about whether or not this kid should be evaluated for depression and maybe treated for depression. I think that. That I want to put a pin in that. I think there's other questions that we want to actually chase down here that are raised in the letter. But I think out of the gate, I will say if this family called me and my practice and came in, that would be a diagnostic rule out, you know, something I would be thinking about really closely.
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A
You think of teenagers as being snarky, but I don't know that necessarily. The correlation between snark and depression, is that something that you see often
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B
in teenagers if they're depressed? The answer is yes. And. And I remember Rena I learning this in my training. And it is something you actually have to learn in training. It's not something that's understood broadly. And. And it's actually very unique to adolescents that when little kids are depressed, they look a little bit more like depressed adults. They can be sort of weepy or low. And little kids is often like we call it somatic symptoms, like their tummy hurts or they've got headaches. And that's how we can start to diagnose depression. And adult depression, you know, tends to look like the way we picture it, you know, with sort of a lowness. There can be some irritability, for sure, but it's more low mood, low affect, all of that. If I hear about an adolescent who is cranky with the adults at home, cranky with the adults at school can't stand everybody. Everyone rubs them the wrong way. And it's. A lot of it is sort of the universality of it that I'm looking for. That, for me, is like, such a flag for depression. And I remember. So when I was in the middle of graduate school, I had enough time. I was, like, moving along well enough in my program that I could actually go back to Denver for a summer and just work. Like, I didn't have to stay on campus and do my grad school work. And I took a job at the Denver Children's Home, which was, and it may still be there, like, basically an inpatient setting for adolescents. So these were kids who were struggling enough that they could not be cared in an outpatient setting. And they were also a lot of kids who were sort of in the system, that they were in foster care, that they had very, very hard lives. And I remember we had this boy show up, and he was, like, 14 or 15, and he was. He was kind of awful to be around. Like, and I hate saying that, like, but he was just, like, such a prickly porcupine and so unpleasant. And no matter how gently or kindly you tried to approach him, he was just, like, off. Like, just terrible. Like, it felt terrible to be in his presence. And I remember I was like a. I was like, 23 or 24. I was, like, very, very young in my training. And I remember one of our attending psychiatrists was like, this kid has depression. And I remember thinking, what are you talking about? Like, that kid is. Nothing about him reads depression the way I've understood it. And I remember they started treating him for depression, including meds and Rena, honest to God, three weeks later, we were looking at a different kid. And so it really, like, made that mark on me of, like, okay, do not miss this. Do not write this off as just teens being teens.
- [06:45]
A
So how do you tell the difference between snark and depression?
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B
So I do think there's that universality piece, right? Like, one of the things, and I think this is a theme that's sort of emerging in this season of, like, what is, like, typical about teenagers that we need to be okay with, right? One of the things that's typical is sometimes a kid is pretty, like, grumpy or spicy at home, and then the parent goes to, like, school conferences, and the teachers are like, oh, my gosh, your son is just so lovely. You're so charming, right? Where there's, like, this big gap, you know, it's not fun at home. And you don't want to have it be all the time, but, like, that's not unusual. So. So I don't necessarily get anxious. I don't, I don't want to say anxious is the right way to say it. I don't start to think about, oh, my gosh, is this kid depressed? If I hear that they're getting along with everybody but their folks, right? Like, for me, I'm like, okay, well, that's something else altogether. That's a family issue. But if I am hearing that it is across the board and, you know, even their friends are irritating to them, like, that is for me, a time to start to be concerned and to do a deeper dive.
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A
So it sounds like you're saying it's snark with irritability that you might need to be look out for snark, irritability.
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And like, everybody bugs them. Not just like this teacher bugs them or these parents bug them. Like, it's got to be everybody or nearly everybody. Like, I think that that's the kind of thing we want to be looking for. But there's some stuff in this letter. I, I think raises some other questions for me that I don't want to. So one was that the kid. They can't get the kid off the phone.
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A
I was going to ask you about phone use next. What's your.
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B
I mean, a lot of kids spend
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a lot of time on their phones.
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B
They do. And it gets to this really interesting big cultural conversation right now that we have about, like, what causes mental health problems in kids. And there's, you know, a lot of thinking that phones cause mental health problems in kids. There is not universal agreement on this in terms of the academic field. I think that we like to get into the weeds of it, as we should around, like, well, who's vulnerable and who's not. But I will say, Reena, when there's pushback on that idea of, like, okay, maybe phones don't cause depression. The pushback usually takes the form of, like, once kids are depressed, they may be spending more time on their phones. And. And that's probably not good for them. So I'm not going to say, oh, yeah, the phone's causing her depression or causing her, you know, ill mood or bad behavior or snarkiness. But I will say, okay, by the time a kid is there, spending a huge amount of their time on their phone is probably not going to help the situation. Right? That I don't love kids spending tons of time on their phone, and I sure as heck don't love it. If they are having problems with their mood or their behavior or their relationships. There's a lot to be said about getting older. You know, I feel more confident in general. Things bother me less. And it's helped me focus on what really matters in life, which is basically, of course, my relationships. At the same time, there are parts of getting older that are not my favorite. I don't love how creaky my body can feel and my skin can feel dry. My nails can feel brittle. But there is something to be done. And what I am doing is, is taking Bub's natural collagen peptides. These are amazing and I do feel like they've helped to turn back the clock. My joints feel better, my skin feels better, my nails feel stronger. So live better longer. For a limited time only, our listeners are getting 20% off at Bubs Naturals by using code ASKLISA at checkout. Just head to Bubsnaturals.com and use code ask link Lisa and you're all set. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. If you're someone who wears makeup and you have not yet tried Jones Road, I'm not really sure what you're waiting for. I love this product from the ever reliable fabulous Bobbi Brown. This makeup is easy, looks so natural, feels incredible on my skin. My latest obsession is the tinted moisturizer. It really is moisturizing, which, believe me, especially in the middle of the winter is incredibly welcome. And it gives just this very light and even finish, but it doesn't look like makeup at all. So if you're looking for makeup that brings out your natural glow and set of hiding it, Jones Road is the way to go. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free cool gloss with their first purchase. When they use code ASKLISA at checkout, just head to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code asklisa at checkout. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.
- [11:49]
A
Do you know what stood out to me in this letter was the parents. Like, oh, and she's going to bed at 10 o'.
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B
Clock.
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A
She's a night owl. Does that also have an impact? Were you concerned when you heard about the sleep pattern?
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Well, it was interesting because with the mom, the way I was like, I caught that too. And what she said is, the kid used to be a night owl and now she's putting herself to bed as early as 10. And so like, how old this kid? This kid's like 15. Like, yeah, 10 o'. Clock. 10 o' clock's like not terrible for 15 year olds. But then I'm like, okay, well how late was she going to bed before?
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A
That's what I was wondering.
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Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I think a lot of kids, 10 o' clock is good, if not early for them to get to bed, especially if they've got a big academic schedule that keeps them up late with homework and things after school. But it made me concerned to hear that she had been, you know, staying up as late before that. And it also, from the way the letter was written and I don't really know the whole story story. It also had a quality of like, that the night owlness was not a. Not seen as a problem or may not have been a, you know, something that the parent was pushing back on. I think it is a problem. What we know is that it, you know, at 15, you know, basically high school age kids, they need nine hours of sleep a night. Like very few kids are getting anywhere in that department. But like, no kid even going to bed at 10 o' clock at night is getting nine hours because they would have to be up at seven. Usually they have to be up way before then. So as we sort of try to like, you know, move into this letter and like tease various elements apart,
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I
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B
do think there's a question about depression. But also when I'm doing diagnostic work, if I hear that a kid's not sleeping very much and my hunch is this kid is not sleeping anywhere near where she needs to be sleeping, that to me is where we start. Because kids who aren't sleeping enough look depressed and once they start sleeping more, they often look a lot better. So before we say, yep, this is a kid who has depression and needs to be treated accordingly, I think we need to remember the basics matter. And basics like getting enough sleep are really important to address before making big diagnostic assumptions.
- [14:13]
A
I love the episode we did with Lisa L. Lewis, who looked at sleep because she really gave us good perspective as to why that's so important. The other thing in this letter that I'm looking at here, Lisa, is she's got younger siblings who idolize her and are watching her behavior. Were you concerned about that when you heard that? And she's being very hurtful to them.
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B
Yeah. What you, I mean, you've got kids who are close to each other in age. Like, what'd you make of that? What was your take on That, I
- [14:39]
A
mean, you know, some of that you see often in dynamics of older, younger siblings. But I can see how when someone's really, really snif. If you've been around people who are really, really snarky, they say things that can kind of cut to the bone a little bit and aren't really funny, but just, you don't need to cut down somebody by saying that. And so I really worry about the impact on younger siblings who idolize their older siblings and are really being torn apart.
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How.
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How do you deal with that?
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B
I agree with you. And let's keep holding for a little on this question of does this kid have depression, whatever else, like, this is not working, right? What is happening at home is not working and she's being really hard on her siblings. And you know, the letter writer doesn't say this, but I also imagine, like, this isn't fun to parent through either. Right. This is not pleasant. And. And understandably, when a person is really suffering, especially from things like depression, we don't often talk about what it feels like for everybody around them. But Rena, it is so hard to live with somebody who's depressed. It is so hard to live with a kid who is so unpleasant. And I just think back to the kid we had on the inpatient unit. I mean, I was only there eight hours a day, and that kid was really wearing me down. So I think when we think about, like, motivation to fix this and to get it on track and to take seriously that this kid is suffering and also causing suffering, the impact on the siblings is a real thing like that should not be minimized. And I think this parent deserves to enjoy a more pleasant relationship with this kid. The kid deserves herself to feel a heck of a lot better than she does. And her siblings should not have to feel like they are, you know, kind of punching bags as this kid, you know, as this 15 year old's working things out. So it is concerning. It's very hard on the family. Often when a kid is suffering, we don't talk about it enough. And I know why. You know, we really want to focus on the needs of the kids. But, like, this is also very real and these are other kids.
- [16:44]
A
What would your advice be to the family when you're dealing with a child who may possibly have depression?
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B
So if this kid were in my practice, I think the first thing I would do is really home in on the sleep question. Like, I have found clinically, like, you deal with that first because you kind of can't see what you're dealing with until the sleep question is managed. So I would be asking a lot more about sleep. I'd be asking where the phone is at night. You know, how I feel about phones and rooms. If the kid was deeply resistant to having their phone out of their room, I would make the case that until the kid is feeling better, it needs to happen. You know, when the kid feels better, we can revisit it. But as long as the kid is feeling this lousy, we're going to start by putting sleep in place and making sure it's going well, figuring out what the barriers are, addressing them, and getting sleep in place. I would want to see this kid sleeping decently for a couple of weeks before making any further decisions. I would be curious about whether she can be busier in a way that spends. Has less time to spend on her phone. Right. I remember one of my favorite supervisors saying, people feel good about themselves for the things they do well. I wonder if asking her to do more activities or more service or something would have a double benefit of less time to just be on her phone and more time to actually do stuff she could feel good about. I would do a two, three, four week assessment of, you know, if we get sleep in place, if this kid's busier and less on her phone, if she's doing stuff she cares about, does her mood start to shift? Does her snarkiness ease? I would be asking all of those questions at the same time, Reena. I would not drag my feet on this. Really? Yeah, I, I think about, you know, and I, I would, I would have in my mind, clinically, I would have in my mind. Does this kid need to be on meds? Like, that would be in my mind. Do you really?
- [18:47]
A
I'm so surprised because what really surprises me about this episode, you know, as we were digging into it and researching it, I just never really understood the correlation between snarkiness and depression. I just think snark is part of teens, you know, like, what teen isn't snarky? Lisa.
- [19:05]
B
A little snarky sometimes, but if we do all these things right, if this kid is snarky across the board, and then we do all these things right, sleep is in place. She's less on her phone, she's busier with good things. And there's still this cranky, cranky, unpleasant. And also the kid is complaining. She's like, my motivation is low. I do not like school. She doesn't feel good either. She's not making people around here feel good. She doesn't Feel good. So I'm just imagining this, and I'm filling in pieces here. So with that caveat in mind, one of the kinds of things I have found myself saying clinically to families in a situation like this is to say I'm beginning to have a really real question about whether or not there's a biologically based depression here, whether or not there's a major depressive disorder at work. Because we're doing all the right things and they're not really working. Here are your options. I am very happy to work with her in psychotherapy to see if we can get psychotherapy alone, talk therapy to relieve her depression. And we could at the same time get a psychiatric consult to see if there's medication that could be of help to her. And we could do it alongside the talk therapy you, as a family can choose. I will also tell you what my recommendation would be, and I will usually make a recommendation. And I would probably say I think we should probably get the ball rolling on a psychiatric consultation. It can take a long time to get with a psychiatrist. Meds themselves can take a long time to work. Um, but I don't want to lose too much time with her feeling this bad without doing everything we can to help her feel better. I think that's close to what I'd be saying at this point. I remember when we were starting this podcast and there were just so many decisions to make all at once, right? From topics that we would cover to, you know, recording schedule to cover and logo. It was just a lot. And I think it's that way. Anytime you're starting some new enterprise, finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. The thing about Shopify is it helps answer all the questions that come up, like, how will people even know that we exist? Well, you can easily create email and social media campaigns that will help you reach your customers wherever they are scrolling or strolling. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com asklisa go to shopify.com asklisa that's shopify.com asklisa y' all
- [21:54]
A
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B
I think you're hearing and you're asking about like my urgency around this.
- [23:29]
A
Yes, that's exactly right. Yes.
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B
Yeah. And, and I think what you're hearing and I'm like hearing it too, right. It's sort of interesting to like think through, you know, how would I handle this as a clinician? I think one of the things that I have come to through experience and practice is that like teen years are like dog years. Like a year of their life is like seven years of ours. Like, so much happens, there's so much going down and it's so much like think about like trajectory, right? Like they're getting themselves on trajectories. And so I don't like to lose time with a teenager who is suffering because it does shift their trajectory. Right. If this kid is pissing off teachers, not making friends, not taking school seriously, like all on the back of a depression that goes untreated that is going to dictate how 16 years, her 16th year, 17th year, 18 year options are going to look. So it's funny, Rena, as we think it through together, I find myself at this point in my clinical career being more easygoing about most things. Right. I mean, the last episode, I'm like, what? Okay, Fan fiction? Like, it's not.
- [24:40]
A
I guess you were right.
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B
More easy going about things that maybe would have gotten me more anxious or reactive early in my training or early in my career, and then more interventionist and more urgent about things than I probably would have been when I was younger. Right. If I see eating pathology, I am like, we are on that, like, yesterday. If I see a kid who I think actually their mood is swamping their capacities, their mood is getting in the way of their relationships, their schoolwork, their teacher relationships, I am so much more aggressive about that than I think I probably was 25 years ago. Like, I don't want this kid losing another minute. I don't want their trajectory changed by something that we could have treated. So as we talk this letter through, I know what I want to rule out, but having ruled those things out, I would probably be all over this.
- [25:31]
A
Yeah. Thank you for that. Because, you know, I hear the urgency and I see, well, snark, that's not a big deal. But I like how you've laid out for us when it can be a big deal and when you need to pay attention 100%.
- [25:44]
B
And I'm so grateful for the letter. Right. Because it really is, I think, describes how a lot of people feel like, I guess this is just teenagers. But is it right? That's the question in the letter.
- [25:54]
A
That's exactly right. So what do you have for us for parenting to gob?
- [25:59]
B
You know, we don't often talk about meds on our podcast, and I know a lot of families have a lot of worries about considering medicating their kids. And it's a real concern, I think. It's not something I ever recommend lightly. And often when I am talking with families about whether medication makes sense, whether it's for ADHD or depression or something else, we are weighing costs. Right. The cost of medicating a child versus the cost of not medicating them. Right. And so there may be costs associated with medicating kids, though, by and large, we know these medications to be very, very safe. And, like, we have good psychiatrists who do good work that hopefully families can access. But when parents have reservations, and I think it's something worth considering, I will also point out, like, there are real costs to not doing this right. If your kid could have felt much better and had a better trajectory as a result, and we don't do that, she may end up with many fewer options at 18 than she deserves. And so meds aren't simple. They're not all good by any measure. Like, there are definitely complexities with them. But we do need to kind of look at them in context and look at what it means for the kids development over time.
- [27:17]
A
Appreciate the guidance, Lisa. I feel like back to back we've had two topics that I never thought we'd really dive into, but an important just the complexity of the teenage years that I don't think I ever appreciated until I became a mom of teenagers.
- [27:32]
B
Yeah. No, I. They are wonderful and complicated and they're my favorite.
- [27:39]
A
They certainly are. They certainly are. And next week, Lisa, we're going to talk about is my son too obsessed with his girlfriend, loving the time of the teenage years. Look forward to chatting with you about that. I'll see you next week.
- [27:51]
B
See you next week.
- [27:54]
C
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to ask Lisa. Drlisadamore.com and now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment therapy or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well being, consult a physician or health mental mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website at DrLisaDemore.
- [28:29]
A
Com.