72: How Do We Talk to Kids About Justice? Advice from Preet Bharara

Summary

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Ask Lisa: The Psychology of Raising Tweens & Teens

Episode 72: How Do We Talk to Kids About Justice? Advice from Preet Bharara
Released: March 15, 2022
Host: Dr. Lisa Damour & Reena Ninan | Guest: Preet Bharara

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Lisa Damour and Reena Ninan welcome Preet Bharara—former U.S. Attorney, children’s author, and host of the podcast “Stay Tuned”—to explore how parents can talk to their kids about justice, fairness, and civic courage. Given current world events, the trio discusses making sense of issues like the war in Ukraine, presents practical guidance and real-life stories, and reflects on children’s innate sense of fairness. Bharara shares insights from his new children’s book, Justice: A Guide for Young Truth Seekers, and Dr. Damour weighs in on fostering empathy and resilience.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Why a Children’s Book About Justice?

• Origins of the book:
  • After writing an adult book on justice (Doing Justice), Preet’s publisher approached him to write a children’s version. He realized how early children grasp fairness.
  • “You see kids playing a game. They know right away if someone's cheating, they scream not fair, you know, right off the bat. And so I think it's never too early to introduce these concepts to young people.” (Preet, 03:26)
• Book features:
  • Profiles real-life, diverse heroes (Lincoln, Douglass, Gandhi, Malala) rather than superheroes—these are “helpers” who practiced courage and morality in the real world.

Introducing Kids to Serious Topics (Ukraine, Historical Injustices)

• The “helpers” narrative:
  • The book serves as a “jumping off point” for parents to introduce their children to courageous individuals who confronted injustice.
  • Reena references Fred Rogers’ advice: “Tell children to look for the helpers. And you've given us a book of helpers.” (Reena, 06:18)
• Balance the dark and the light:
  • Preet argues we can’t sanitize history—understanding the heroism of Lincoln or Gandhi requires knowing the context of slavery or colonialism.
  • “You don't only talk about the bad. You talk about the courageousness…whenever anything bad happens...emphasize the heroes who rise to the moment.” (Preet, 08:36)
  • Example: Parkland shooting survivors’ advocacy (08:48).

Lessons from Parenting as an Immigrant

• On national pride and civic duty:
  • Preet emphasizes gratitude and public service in response to having benefited from immigration.
  • “I owe a lot to America....I love the United States of America. And I say that unabashedly all the time.” (Preet, 09:22)
  • He encourages his children to be engaged citizens and maintain connection to a multi-religious, multi-ethnic heritage.

Kids’ Moral and Cognitive Abilities

• Children and moral clarity:
  • Dr. Lisa: Six-year-olds have a strong sense of right and wrong—sometimes rigidly so; teenagers have “X-ray vision for people's souls.”
  • “Teenagers can see right through situations and right through...you can BS a grown-up or a little kid, but you can't pull the wool over the eyes of a teenager.” (Dr. Lisa, 12:27)
  • Kids hold parents accountable for inclusivity and values.
  • “My kids hold my feet to the fire…” (Dr. Lisa, 13:16)

Empathy, Self-possession, and Resisting Groupthink

• What prevents corruption?
  • Preet cites Michael Lewis: “The quality of being self-possessed...comfort with your own morality...those people resist the mob better than others.” (Preet, 17:15)
  • Dr. Lisa adds: empathy is equally protective—“When we cultivate empathy, all good things happen.” (20:07)
• Why do people get caught in bad movements?
  • Dr. Lisa: “Something about that movement is telling them a story that helps them make sense of their world...is meeting a need for that person.” (20:07)
  • The question is not only about villains, but also about “masses of generally decent people who just go along.” (Preet, 19:02)

COVID Silver Linings: Family Connection and Guilt

• Family dinners and small joys:
  • Preet describes 105 consecutive family dinners during the pandemic as a unique gift:
  • “We had 105 dinners. I count 105 consecutive dinners...On those dinners in a very fond way. Should I feel guilty about that?” (Preet, 22:58)
  • Dr. Lisa: Savor the positive—it enables resilience amid challenge.

The National Conversation on Mental Health

• Systemic gaps:
  • Preet highlights the high rate (43%) of mental health issues among young people at Rikers Island; emphasizes urgency for mental health parity and insurance coverage.
  • “A lot of crime and a lot of social issues...come back to the lack of provision of mental health services...some of these issues...are potentially ruinous mental health issues that are just not being treated at all.” (Preet, 26:45)
• Dr. Lisa: Increased openness about mental health and political momentum are positive outcomes from the pandemic.

Helping Kids Understand Justice—and Injustice

• Teaching through stories and outrage:
  • Preet: Children’s first sense may be of outrage at injustice, which leads to understanding justice.
  • “Sometimes first the sense of injustice…maybe it's the latter. The way I think parents might explain these issues is there was a wrong happening...what would be justice? Well, the elimination of that practice.” (Preet, 29:05)
• Parental guidance—building inner strength:
  • “You belong to yourself before you belong to anyone else.” (Preet, 31:44)
  • Dr. Lisa echoes the need to help kids develop a strong sense of self-worth to resist group pressure.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You see kids playing a game. They know right away if someone's cheating—they scream ‘not fair’…so I think it's never too early to introduce these concepts to young people.”
  —Preet Bharara (03:26)

• “Why not have a book filled with pictures of actual heroes…who don't have superpowers other than their own spine and moral compass?”
  —Preet Bharara (04:13)

• “Tell children to look for the helpers. And you've given us a book of helpers.”
  —Dr. Lisa Damour (06:18)

• “Teenagers have, I think, X-ray vision for people’s souls...you can't pull the wool over the eyes of a teenager.”
  —Dr. Lisa Damour (12:27)

• “What prevents ordinary people from going along with wrongdoing? Self-possession…but equally, empathy.”
  —Preet Bharara (17:15) / Dr. Lisa Damour (18:11)

• “You belong to yourself before you belong to anyone else.”
  —Preet Bharara (31:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:06] - Why Preet wrote a children’s book on justice
• [05:47] - Addressing world crises (Ukraine) and response of helpers
• [09:17] - Parenting as an immigrant and instilling civic duty
• [12:14] - Children’s capacity for understanding complexity
• [13:25] - Parental accountability and learning from children
• [16:49] - What protects people from wrongdoing—self-possession and empathy
• [22:18] - Family life during COVID: finding connection
• [25:03] - Mental health crisis, government efforts, and needed reforms
• [28:37] - How the book helps kids connect with justice, injustice, and heroes
• [31:28] - Final advice: fostering strong sense of self in kids

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Actionable Takeaways for Parents

• Introduce concepts of justice and fairness early—kids are naturally attuned to them, even at preschool age.
• Use real stories of helpers and heroes to anchor conversations, especially in the context of troubling current events.
• Don’t shy away from discussing the darker parts of history; justice is best understood by knowing what was at stake.
• Encourage empathy and self-possession in children as protective factors against negative influences and groupthink.
• Use opportunities (family dinners, current events) to model and talk about civic engagement, resilience, and moral courage.
• Support open conversations about mental health and advocate for access to care.

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Closing Parenting Advice (Parenting to Go)

• Dr. Lisa:
  • “Whatever else happens, you have to feel alright with yourself. Don’t do anything that you’re not going to be able to feel comfortable with or that’s going to keep you up at night. I think that’s a way we can continue to drive home the message about what it means to do the right thing.” (34:02)

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For more resources, see Dr. Lisa Damour’s website and Preet Bharara’s new children’s book, "Justice: A Guide for Young Truth Seekers."

Transcript

[A]

This is Ask Lisa, a podcast to help people understand the psychology of parenting. Psychologist Dr. Lisa Damore, author of two New York Times best selling parenting books, takes your questions. And I'm co host Reena Nynan, a journalist and mom of two. Some of what we talk about comes from raising children ourselves. Most of the time, I'll be getting answers to your parenting questions. So send your questions to ask [e-mail] Episode 72 How Do We Talk to our kids about justice? Advice from author and legal expert Preet Bharara. It's hard to ignore and it's kind of hard for parents watching the images this month coming out of Ukraine. And so, Lisa, I can't imagine a better guest joining us today who's got a very timely book? We're joined by Preet Bharara, who is the author of a new children's book called Justice A Gu for Young Truth Seekers and also podcast host of Stay Tuned where he breaks down legal topics in the news. Preet was actually featured on the COVID of Time magazine as one of the most hundred most influential people in the world. He's a former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, where Preeth in that capacity oversaw cases relating to financial fraud, public corruption, gang violence and terrorism. I mean, Preeth has taken down big sharks on Wall street for corruption terrorists, which makes him the perfect guest to tell us how to deal with our toddlers and dad of three.

[B]

If we could designate children to be domestic terrorist organizations, I think that would make parenting a lot easier. I think the Congress is behind. We need to get the legislative branch to step up.

[C]

I think you'd have a lot of parents who would be behind that kind of legislation.

[B]

There's a lot of recidivism among the children of America.

[C]

True.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Preet, welcome very, very much. We're so excited to have you here.

[C]

Thank you for being with us. Okay, so let's just get right into it. You have this incredibly impressive resume. How did you end up writing a children's book?

[B]

Well, you know, it's an interesting story. I wrote a book. I always say I wrote an adult book, which makes it sound like that's

[C]

not what you mean.

[B]

It was pornographic. It wasn't. I wrote a book for grownups about justice. It's called Doing justice. And it talks about sort of concepts of fairness and justice. And it's not meant for just lawyers. It's meant for everybody. And I tell a lot of stories about the cases we oversaw and how you think critically about decisions you make not just as lawyers, but in the workplace, within your family and everything else. And the book did very well. And the publisher actually came to me and approached me at crown, under the Penguin Random House umbrella. There's really not a book for children, A picture book about justice and some of these issues. What do you think? And I've never done it before. I said, do I have to draw the pictures myself? They said, no. And we have the privilege of having to work with. Gotten the privilege to work with Sue Cornelison, who did a beautiful job illustrating. I think what's impressive about the book mostly is her illustrations and then some of the words that go along with them. And the introduction of some of these people to young people and their parents. But, you know, I got to thinking about it, and actually, this will be one of my questions to Lisa. Ask Lisa. You know, I think we underestimate the ability of young people and quite young people to understand what's fair and what's not, what's right and what's not. You see kids playing a game. They know right away if someone's cheating, they scream not fair, you know, right off the bat. And so I think it's never too early to introduce these concepts to young people. I think there's never been a more important time to make sure that we're raising our kids in a way that they understand issues of justice and fairness. And then finally, you know, what the book generally does is introduce courageous figures who advance the cause of justice in various areas, Both in the United States and in other countries around the world, Both in the modern day and also going back a century or two. Lincoln is featured in the book. Frederick Douglass is featured in the book. Gandhi is featured in the book. Malala Yousafzai is featured in the book. And, you know, lots of young people watch or read superhero comics. And what are those about? Ultimately, they're the fight between good and evil and truth, justice and the American way, if you will. Why not have a book filled with pictures of actual heroes who actually did stuff and don't have superpowers other than their own spine and moral compass? And that's basically why we thought about putting this book out.

[A]

You know what I love about this book? It's not preachy. It is great for all ages because the illustrations are beautiful. And there's one line so you can tell your child as much as you want about Malala and the Taliban. And then there's an index in the back. So for if you've forgotten sort of what happened in history in that moment, there's a little refresher for parents who can kind of learn, too, as you go.

[B]

You forgot. Well, we thought about this as a jumping off point. And if you have a child, and it's intended for people 4 to 8, but I think you can go older, maybe even a little bit younger, because there's such rich material that's behind the material of the book. My own dad, when I was young, would tell stories about people that he admired. And I'm from India, was born in India. My dad was born in what was the combination of India and Pakistan before partition. And he would tell me and my brother stories about Mahatma Gandhi's fight for independence for India from Great Britain. So I remember hearing those things. Look, even in this Ukraine invasion crisis, we have the villain, Vladimir Putin, who is increasingly unhinged, backed into a corner, doing things that are not rational or reasonable.

[C]

And.

[B]

And then you have Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who might be in a future version of this book, given how he's acting, given how he's rallying the people of Ukraine and how brave he's being. So when bad stuff happens, it's terrible, but good people often, if not always, rise up to it.

[C]

There's this famous line from Fred Rogers about helping kids when they're watching a crisis unfold, where he always says, tell children to look for the helpers. And you've given us a book of helpers. So on the topic of Ukraine, this is high on everybody's mind right now as we're watching the images come out this month about what's happening there. What are your thoughts about how parents might use your book to help have the kinds of conversations they want to be having with their children right now?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, this is not my expertise of how to use a book to interpret and understand and process what is on the verge of being a series of atrocities against innocent people who are in a country that's independent and sovereign, member of the United nations, not in any way threatening Russia. That's hard. It's hard for me to process. I'm 53, and I've had a career and had some success along the way. And so part of what you have to tell folks is a version of what I was saying earlier. You know, when bad things happen. And you have to acknowledge that one of the worries I have given some of the movements in some of the states in this country is people want to whitewash history. And this book, in I think, a sensitive way, addresses bad things, too. It addresses Slavery. There's a representation of slavery, of Japanese internment during World War II and a number of other things. And this is a version of an answer to your question about Ukraine. I don't know how you talk about the courage and the tenaciousness and the nobility of Lincoln and how you can understand why we celebrate Lincoln if you don't understand what slavery was. Right. How you can understand the power of Gandhi's nonviolent resistance movement if you don't understand how bad colonialism was and how bad the lack of independence was. And so in the same way, I think, you know, when you talk about Ukraine, you don't only talk about the bad. You talk about the courageousness of the people who are fighting for their country, who are fighting for their autonomy, who are fighting for the integrity of their border, of the leadership. That's been shown by Zelenskyy. And by the way, not just Zelensky. I mean, what's so impressive to me about it is ordinary people, the soldiers are being braver than anyone expected, even though they're outmatched and outgunned. And in any tragedy, whenever anything bad happens, I think you also have to, not just with young people, but with everybody, emphasize the heroes who rise to the moment. Some of the worst things that have ever happened, including the shooting at Parkland. Right. Tragic disaster. Tears come to your eyes. Just contemplating the idea of a shooter killing students and teachers at a public school in Florida. But from that. So you can't just talk about that. From that, you had all these young people who are still in the public eye today who are talking not just about gun violence, but also about other issues. You know, leaders are born in moments of crisis, even when they're teenagers.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Preeth, I'm curious. You mentioned your dad. How has being an immigrant factored into your job as a dad of three?

[B]

I think parenting is parenting. And, you know, if you're a parent in India or a parent in America or a parent of somebody who was born in India and came to America, there's a lot of, you know, the little kids can be terrorists, as we said at the beginning of the conversation. But a couple of things. One, you know, the way I think about being an immigrant is that I owe a lot to America. And there's a lot of debate about the degree to which you criticize your country. And I certainly think we can be better. But, boy, I love the United States of America. And I say that unabashedly all the time. And one of the reasons I spent 17 and a half years in public service and continued in that service up until I was fired, like thrown out of the building by President Trump. By President, then President Trump was. I felt that America gave me so much I wanted to give back to the country. And so I've emphasized to my kids, who are, you know, older now. My oldest is about to be 21, and I have a 19 year old and a 17 year old is public service. And I'm proud of the fact that they are engaged in, you know, the civic issues of the day in America around the world. They care a lot about what's going on, and they have inspired me to, you know, to be active as well. You know, they took me to the Women's March back in 2017 and then, you know, to other demonstrations after George Floyd was killed. So I think being an immigrant means you owe a lot to the country that adopted you. I think also what it means is you don't want your children to lose touch with what their heritage is. And we have a very mixed heritage. My children have one Sikh grandparent, one Hindu grandparent, one Jewish grandparent, and one Muslim grandparent.

[A]

Wow. They check off every box.

[B]

Yeah. Which I think, if I'm doing the math correctly, makes them Episcopalian. The more difficult conversation was sitting down to dinner with my kids five years ago and saying, you know, I gotta tell you something. I've been invited to Trump Tower to meet with Donald Trump, who was gonna ask me to stay on as U.S. attorney. And first I thought it was a joke. And my daughter asked, very pointed, like, why would you. And it's a great question. And it's a little bit hard to explain to them that I did not think of myself as working for the president or serving. I didn't think of myself as working for or serving Barack Obama. And Barack Obama, actually once when we had a big photo op with all the U.S. attorneys in the country in front of him, he made it a point. It sounds quaint now, but, you know, Barack Obama, when he was president, said like, so I appointed you, the Senate confirmed you, but you don't answer to me. You don't work for me, you don't serve me. You serve the people and you serve the Constitution. And I really believe that it was naive and it lasted seven weeks because then Donald Trump started calling me. And I thought that was inappropriate. And then I was know, told to go. But I just explained, and I think, you know, maybe I can interpose a question to Lisa here. How much do we underestimate young people's ability to understand Complex things, I think tremendously.

[C]

And one of the things that is extraordinary about young people, and I would say especially teenagers, is they get to the bottom line very fast. Teenagers have, I think, X ray vision for people's souls. And I think it's sometimes why people don't like teenagers is that teenagers can see right through situations and right through. And I'll put it this way, you can BS a grown up, you can BS a little kid, but you actually cannot pull the wool over the eyes of a teenager. I have found that to be true.

[B]

Then why aren't they in office? We should put them in office.

[C]

I know, I know. Well, it's like you say, the Parkland teenagers have been so powerful because they're so clear. They don't get caught up in the vagaries of things, they go right for the heart of things. So I think teenagers have tremendous power in this way. But also younger kids do too. One of the things we've talked about on this podcast is that six year olds are incredibly moral in their approach to the world. They become very, very aware of right and wrong and sometimes actually to a rigid degree. A lot of times people feel like having a six year old is like living with church lady. Like they can't get anything right. The parents get in the car and the kids like, put on your seatbelt.

[B]

They're like, but is there some paradox there? Don't 6 year olds also steal from the cookie jar and punch their sister in the face and do that sort of thing?

[C]

They can, but they know they're starting to have an awareness that what they're doing is wrong. Whereas if you're under the age of six, usually the view of morality is if you don't get caught, you're good to go. As soon as you're age 6, you do have a sense of there's a right and wrong that goes with you everywhere you go. And I think that that just intensifies as kids age and teenagers are very clear eyed about what they think is right and wrong. And I think a lot of parents, myself included, I have an 11 year old daughter and an 18 year old daughter. A lot of parents, I feel like what you're describing about your kids getting you to the Women's March. My kids hold my feet to the fire about what I say, how I say it. If I'm being as inclusive as I need to be, if I'm, you know, I have learned more from them about what it means to be a broad minded, inclusive human being than any of my own Training or other.

[B]

Look, the world is changing, and the first person I go to is my daughter. Can you explain why people think this or why it's important to use this kind of language as opposed to this other kind of language that I grew up with and thought and always thought was appropriate? And we have really good open conversations about it. I have another question for you because. Which is a little bit off topic, but what age group among children is the most self absorbed?

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Is it the baby?

[C]

Well, a baby by their nature, because the world begins and ends, you know, at what they can perceive. And here's the hard thing. I adore teenagers, and I tend to be entirely complimentary of them, but the reality is that teenagers, by their nature are unusually egocentristic. And I always resisted this characterization of them. I always felt like, oh, no, don't trash teenagers. Everybody loves to trash teenagers. And then I had an experience that made it impossible for me to entirely set this to the side. And it's a terrible story, but it was very illuminating. So I consult at a school one day a week. I practice and I write and I get to do this fabulous podcast with Rena, but one day a week I consult at a school. And years ago, we had a student who was killed in an accident. She was a junior, and it was just a freak accident. And it happened. And a couple of months later, I was walking down the hall and. And a pack of juniors stopped me, and they were like, Dr. Damore, we have to talk to you. The AP English curriculum has too many stories about death, and we are having a very hard time reading these stories in light of our friend's death. And I said to them, I hear you. Can I throw a possibility by you? Now that you have experienced grief and bereavement, is there any possibility that these stories will take on a whole new meaning to you that you could not have possibly accessed if you had not been through this experience yourself? So I was enormously pleased with my response. They were appalled by what I said. It was immediately clear that for me to put their grief on the level with grief that has ever happened to anyone else in the history of being a human was offensive to them. And. And I don't think I ever got my cred back with that pack.

[B]

Can I ask another question? Because this has been in my mind for a long time, so I think a lot about corruption. What makes decent people do bad things. The theme of my work. It's not necessary to understand if you're a prosecutor, but if you're a Thinking person, a curious person about human behavior. You think about it. And I get asked about it a lot. Right. And I've asked other people who probe corruption and bad conduct, the question, you know, what is the quality of a person that you have found in the course of your study, research evaluation, that most protects someone from falling into misbehavior and corruption and cheating and stealing and all of that. And the best answer, I want to tell you, the best answer I've ever heard was from Michael Lewis, who was writing, who's written a lot of great books, and he said it's the quality of being self possessed, self possession, which is something that overlaps with independence and not caring what the crowd thinks so much. But it's a little bit more about comfort with yourself, comfort with your own morality. And those people resist the mob better than others. That probably is an attribute a lot of the people in this book, but we don't talk about it. We talk about courage and heroism. We don't talk about self possession. Do you have a thought about that?

[C]

Well, I don't disagree, though. I would go to empathy as the protective force that keeps people from doing wrong things to other people. Because when we think about things like sociopaths. Right. That's back in my neighborhood, they have none of that. They are fascinated by how you get over on people. And they put the full weight of their intellect behind trying to figure out how to get over on people. And what's missing from that picture is that getting over on people harms people. And for most people, that's enough to stop them from doing it. You know, we could all think of ways to exploit others, but the thing that gets between us and doing it is the fact that we don't want to harm anybody. So the more we cultivate empathy, all good things happen. And it also, I think, reduces the chance that your child would do things that are wrong things.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there's sort of two categories of people. They're the people who do the bad things. They're the sociopaths. They're the leaders of bad movements. But then, as we all know from history, some of which is relevant to the character, the people in the book, most of those bad people can't get away with what they do unless there are masses of generally decent people who just go along. And that's where I think self possession comes in. How do you resist the crowd when everyone is saying we need to go do this bad thing? Well, I guess I should do it too. Look, we've seen this question about why some of them do and some of them don't is, I think, ever fascinating.

[C]

One of the real challenges is when a movement comes along that catches people up within it, something about that movement is telling them a story that helps them make sense of their world. It may not be a true story, it may not be a kind story, but I'm much, much better at thinking at the level of the individual than the group. That's how my brain was trained. And so when I think about an individual who gets caught up in something that we can see from the outside is, for lack of a better word, a bad idea, I can't help but think that something about that story in that movement is meeting a need for that person. And we need to know what need is being met if we want to work against people getting caught up in those movements.

[A]

Um, we're going to pause, take a quick break, and on the other side, we're going to talk about COVID and teens. We'll be right back. You're listening to the Ask Lisa Podcast.

[D]

What do you do when your toddler melts down or your teen shuts down? I want to introduce you to the Mindful Mama Podcast. I'm Hunter Clark Fields, author of Raising Good Humans and your host for the past 10 years. I used to be a yelling, overwhelmed mom until I found mindfulness and practical parenting tools that changed every everything. Each week I bring you honest conversations and expert advice to help you regulate your emotions, manage your kids behavior with compassion, and break the cycle of reactive parenting. Whether you're raising toddlers or teens, you'll find real strategies for conscious parenting, screen time, ADHD and more. Listen to the Mindful Mama Podcast wherever you get your podcasts because you can raise kind, confident kids without losing your cool.

[A]

Raising tweens and teens comes with a lot of questions and Lisa and I are here to help you find answers.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

So go to my website, drlisadamore.com to sign up. Today.

[A]

Lisa's weekly newsletter is one more way that we're here to help you untangle family life. Welcome back to the Ask Lisa Podcast. We're joined by author and legal expert Preet Bharara. Preet's got a new children's book Out Justices A Guide for young Truth seekers. Preet, I want to ask you about your time under Covid with your kids. What was it like? You had teenagers.

[B]

So the coronavirus is terrible. Covid is terrible. We've lost so many people, and there's so much suffering and, you know, disengagement with people. But, you know, but there are some silver linings for some people. You know, when the world shut down in March of 2020, what followed was day after day after day of my wife and I and all three of our kids at the dinner table. Every meal I counted, I think we had an unbroken streak of all five. My daughter, by the way, was in college. We had to go get her from college because college went remote. And then my two boys were in high school still, and so they were still with us. But, you know, the ordinary course of life, which is I have events and I have talks and I have travel, and my wife is very busy doing various things, and the kids have school and they go see friends. We went from that, you know, occasional, you know, one or two nights during the week or on the weekend having dinner together. We had 105 dinners. I count 105 consecutive dinners. And they were not short. And, you know, we had the luxury of time every night to talk about what's going on in the world, to tell stories that, you know, from my childhood or my wife's childhood, play games, you know, 20 questions, you know, whatever the case. So, you know, at a time when lots of terrible things were happening, you know, when I'm. When I'm old or older, years from now, I'm going to think back on those. On those dinners in a very fond way. Should I feel guilty about that?

[C]

No. I think, you know, you didn't cause this pandemic. We all had to find our way through it. And I actually think I've heard from a lot of people that they've struggled with questions about can I enjoy aspects of this, Can I even have a nice time right now? And one of the things that has come up on this podcast is that one of the lessons from positive psychology is that the presence of the negative doesn't mean the absence of the positive. And especially in the context of so much negative, it's the positive that fills us up. It's the positive that makes it possible to bear through the hard time and an incredibly long hard time. So rather than feeling guilty about the positives that any of us have been able to enjoy or can enjoy going forward, I would want people to Soak them up and really savor them, because there is so much heart in the world that we need to try to be equal to, and that's the only way we're gonna be able to do it.

[B]

No, I think that. I think that's right. I hope that's right.

[A]

I do feel guilty of all the chocolate and bottles of red wine I consume that I'm still trying to work off at this point. But, Lisa, you know, we talk so much on the podcast about mental health issues, and I just feel like we're all going through something at this point, through this pandemic, and trying to cope with it. And the White House just came up with some new guidelines that were released this month.

[C]

Yeah, the White House just put out an ambitious plan to try to really shore up the provision of mental health in the US and of course, I couldn't have been happier to see it. And it includes all sorts of things for people of all ages, including stuff for kids, trying to enhance the service provision within schools, early childhood things, and also things around the lines of like mental health parody, meaning that insurance companies are going to be hopefully expected to cover mental health in the same way they cover physical health. You know, if you have. If you need chemo, you get as much chemo as you need. If you need psychotherapy, you can have five sessions. And this has always been a problem. And Preeth, I wonder, do you have thoughts along these lines about sort of, you think, at big governmental scale, is there more we can be doing, should be doing to help support people?

[B]

Look, I'm not a mental health expert, but I've come across this issue, obviously, in my. In my work. We, you know, among the various cases we did, we interposed ourselves in a lawsuit against the City of New York and the Department of Corrections with respect to Rikers island and the treatment of adolescents. And it's not gotten better, unfortunately. You hear stories in the news about how terrible it is. But one of the most stunning findings to my mind was that I think the figure was something like 43% of the younger people who were being held at Rikers island had some mental health issue. 43% and a lot of crime. And a lot of social issues that we talk about come back to the lack of provision of mental health services. And, you know, I know friends, and we have, you know, members of the family and friends over the course of years who need help. And, you know, in many of those cases, they're people of means. A lot of mental health care providers are not covered by insurance or they don't take insurance because, you know, they're so inundated with demand for their services. And it adds up. It's an enormous amount of money. And some of these things that people are seeking treatment for, you know, are important, but they're not. How do I say this? But they're not so debilitating as to be ruinous if not immediately treated. And you have people in the country, through no fault of their own, who have potentially ruinous mental health issues that are just not being treated at all. And it's sending people to prison and it's sending people to the morgue. So I'm all in favor. If you think the plan is a good one, that's great. I haven't studied it closely, but I think we are woefully, woefully inadequate in thinking about mental health. We do not treat those issues that, depending on the particulars of it, can be much more devastating than an ordinary physical health issue.

[C]

Yeah. And in fact, I mean, talking about silver linings in the pandemic, if the fact that we all now talk about mental health, there's an awareness of a mental health crisis, there's governmental support for really overhauling how we talk and think about mental health, the kind of care that's provided, how it gets funded, that would be a great outcome from the pandemic.

[A]

Preeth, I want to ask you, you know, in this book, you talk a little bit about how it's never too early to talk about fairness. And most kids, you experience what it's like, fairness or not fair with your siblings very early on in preschool. How do you hope this book will help kids understand justice? Because sometimes when you get justice, I'm sure you've litigated many cases where the outcome isn't necessarily guaranteed to be the one that you want.

[B]

Yeah. So I think a couple of things. Justice, you know, people ask me the question, what does justice mean to you? And I always say, you know, thousands and thousands of humans have spent lifetimes studying the issue, and no one fully agrees. And it goes back to before the Greeks. Right. So lifetimes of study by, you know, lawyers, jurists, moral philosophers. Aristotle was not the first person to contemplate the issue. I do think, with respect to children, a couple of things. One, as I've mentioned, the book does not do like an exegesis on what justice is as a concept. It sort of introduces you to the concept by making available to you the stories and the identities of some people who fought for justice. So, for example, a child will see Malala, and it's a little bit disturbing, and we don't depict anything insensitive. But as people may, you know, Malala was shot in the head, left for dead, because she was fighting for the right of children to get an education. And I imagine that the average American child would wonder aloud, like, what are you talking about? What do you mean? Girls are not allowed to get educated in some parts of the world. Like, girls are people just like boys are. And that would awaken in them, you know, not just a sense of justice, but in fact, sometimes first the sense of injustice. Right. You know, it's not always. It's not always clear to me. And maybe, you know, the answer to this question, Lisa, as a developmental matter, you know, what comes first? People's sense of justice or people's sense of outrage, unfairness, and injustice, which then leads to the concept of justice? My conjecture would be it's maybe the latter. And to the extent it's the latter, the way I think parents might explain these issues is there was a wrong that was happening. There was slavery. Slavery was this terrible thing in which human beings, because of what they looked like, were treated as property, like your table. And that's got to be shocking to a child because it actually makes no sense. And then you explain that's a bad thing, that's injustice. And what would be justice? Well, the elimination of that practice. And here's some people who fought to eliminate that practice, and we owe a large debt of gratitude to them. So I think individually, with respect to each of those stories and what the wrong that was being, almost in every instance, there's some wrong, there's some injustice that was being fought against, not just some happy society. And somebody stood out in a generalized way to advocate for even greater fairness and redistribution. Whatever the case may be, these are people actively fighting evil things.

[C]

I love the way you put it, and my hunch is that you're absolutely right. Okay, so easy question.

[B]

Uh, oh, that's famous last words.

[C]

I know, I know. Okay, so we parents, we want to raise good citizens. We want to raise kids who understand justice and democracy and do what's right. How can we be helping? What can parents be doing?

[B]

I think if people don't feel good about themselves, they're more likely to be drawn along in some bad enterprise because they think, maybe that will make me feel better about myself. Belonging is very important to people. But if you get up and involved in a bad crowd, whether it's people who are storming the Capitol or anything else, the thing that prevents that from happening in part is your own sense of self worth. You belong to yourself before you belong to anyone else. And I believe that.

[C]

I love that. That's a beautiful. You belong to yourself before you belong to anyone else. I love that.

[A]

Preeth is just someone who really believes so strongly in democracy, justice, our legal system journal. I couldn't imagine a better person to come on the podcast today to talk about this and to write this book. I absolutely love it. This is the gift you want to give at everybody's birthday parties. I'm telling you, just order a bunch of copies. You don't have to worry about gifts for birthday parties because birthday parties are coming back now.

[B]

They are, right?

[A]

They're coming back. Well, the book is called A Guide for Young Truth Seekers. And be sure to tune into Preeth's show, which is fantastic. His podcast called Stay Tuned where you can get more of his insider illegal takes on the world. And Preet, by the way, if you want to meet him in person, he's got a couple of live events that are really interesting. Preet, tell us about that.

[B]

So we have a live podcast, the first one since before the pandemic. It's been a couple of years and we're doing that on March 31st at the town hall in Midtown Manhattan. That's a Thursday evening and we have an amazing guest, someone I've admired for a long time. Brings some levity and also some seriousness to the conversation. Actor and director Ben Stiller will be the guest. So you want to come hang out with me and Ben stiller? Go to cafe.com events.

[A]

Fantastic. We'll have all of this, including how to buy Preet's book in our show notes, so be sure to check it out. Preet Bharara, so grateful you could join us.

[B]

Preet, thanks. Thanks for having me.

[C]

Thank you so much. And thank you for the work you've done.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It was so great to have Preethon. Lisa, what do you have for us for parenting to go this week?

[C]

You know, as Preeth was talking about adults going along with things that they shouldn't do, I was thinking how much it's true that sometimes kids and teenagers do the same thing. And to help our kids stay on the right track, I think one thing that we can say to them is whatever else happens, you have to feel alright with yourself. So don't do anything that you're not going to be able to feel comfortable with or that's going to keep you up at night. I think that's a way that we can continue to drive home the message about what it means to do the right thing.

[A]

Never know what's going to register in the minds of kids. It's great to keep talking about these things.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

And next week we're going to talk about what do you do when you find text messages from your child that they don't know that you know about? Should you confront them? I'll see you back next week.

[C]

See you next week.

[A]

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to ask [e-mail] and now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's [e-mail] we'll see you next week.