← Ask NT Wright Anything
Ask NT Wright Anything
Does God repent? What does ekklesia mean? Talking about biblical words and what they mean?
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- [00:01]
Mike Bird
Hey to all the pastors, priests, people involved in Christian ministry. You spend hours every week on your sermons, but come Sunday morning, are you absolutely sure of what your congregation needs or are you just guessing? When people quietly slip out because they're fighting a battle you can't see? It's heartbreaking. But what if you could see what is going on in your church, in people's lives and their hearts? Know where the church is growing, where it's not, and what to do next? Well, that's where Next Step for Church comes in. Backed by 200 years of American Bible Society research, this free assessment gives you the tools you need to stop guessing and start knowing for sure. Imagine seeing the big picture of what the people in your church are dealing with. Imagine getting ideas to support the people who need it the most. And imagine tracking and celebrating their progress year after year. The team behind Next Step for Church is hosting a live Q and A to show you exactly how it works. Grab your spot@thenextepforchurch.org after a quick overview, they'll answer your questions so you can see how it fits with your specific congregation. Sign up today at nextstepforchurch.org it's time to turn on the lights and stop guessing about what your people need. Save your seat@nextstepforchurch.org ready to soundtrack your
- [01:43]
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- [03:08]
Mike Bird
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Ask Anti. Write Anything, the program where we try to answer your questions about Jesus, the Bible, and. And the life of faith. I'm Mike Bird from Ridley College, joined
- [03:21]
Tom Wright
by Tom Wright from Wycliffe hall in Oxford.
- [03:26]
Mike Bird
Tom, we've got some good questions this week. They're all about biblical words. You know, words about spirit, soul, the church, repentance. Now, I've got to ask you, do you have a favorite word, a word that you love to use?
- [03:39]
Tom Wright
What? In Greek or Hebrew or English.
- [03:41]
Mike Bird
Let's go for English. Do you have a favorite English word?
- [03:46]
Tom Wright
That's a. That's a difficult one. It's not a question I've ever asked myself, though people do sometimes say, when they've read several of my books, that, That I. I always know when you're going to use this particular word, and I just can't think what they would.
- [04:00]
Mike Bird
I know what the word is. The word is precisely. The word is precisely.
- [04:04]
Tom Wright
You might. You might just be right. Yeah, Yeah, I know.
- [04:07]
Mike Bird
When Tom used to. Yeah, when you use the word precisely, that's. That's. That's important stuff. That's when the precisely word comes out. This is. This is the main takeaway.
- [04:17]
Tom Wright
Yeah, I. I have sometimes been aware, as I've reread stuff, that I've drafted, that I've used that word too often, and I've sometimes gone through and taken out one in every three occurrences.
- [04:28]
Mike Bird
That's understandable. Well, my. I like two words. I like the word juxtaposition. I just like the way it sounds. It means two things put side by side for the sake of contrast. I love it. My other favorite word is one I learned in the army, and it's a real word. It's the word embuggerance. Now, I use this in conversation a lot. So when we're having a meeting and I say, well, I propose we do this, and someone says, well, I'm sorry, Mike, the academic regulations say you can't do that. That's an absolute imbuggerence. And people say, come on, Mike. That kind of language is rather uncalled for, don't you think? I say, hang on, hang on. Imbuggerence is a technical, military engineering term for a man made obstacle designed to impede someone's movement. I'm saying it's an embargo. It's, it's preventing us from moving and achieving our objective. But whenever I say it, people give me really weird looks. But it's a good word. We should use it in daily conversation more often.
- [05:28]
Tom Wright
I find my classics teacher used to say every lesson is an English lesson and. Yeah, so.
- [05:35]
Mike Bird
Exactly. But we've got great questions, Tom, about biblical words and what they mean for today. Now we know that word studies are a source of a great many heresies. You know, whether we're talking about, you know, a logos word versus a rhema word.
- [05:51]
Tom Wright
Yeah.
- [05:51]
Mike Bird
People saying things about the word dunamis and dynamite. There's, there's many a heresy has begun as a word study. But let me give you our first question. This is from Kyle C. In Austin, Texas. Texas. And I like this question, Tom. This is about the distinction between su, which normally means like soul, and numa for spirit. This is, this is what Kyle says. I recently read your book God's Homecoming, which I have to say, Tom, is a cracking good book and found it very helpful and insightful. However, I had a question about Suk vs. Numa. PSUCHE is understood to refer to a person's life rather than a Platonic inner being. But it still seems like the New Testament can reference aspects of a person's inner being via the use of pneuma in lieu of psuche, such as in Ephesians 3:16. So I was wondering if you could shed any light on numa and whether it indicates an inner being of sorts that we perhaps incorrectly described with the language of soul. Thanks for all you do, Tom. What do you have to say to Kyle's question?
- [07:04]
Tom Wright
Thank you very much. And I wish that more people were more aware of the slipperiness of our language and the biblical language about what you might call loosely, our interiority. I mean, in that verse, Ephesians 3:16, we. Paul uses the phrase the inner person ton esso anthropom, which he also uses in 2 Corinthians 4:16. And I sometimes wonder if he does that not just to allude to some contemporary philosophical discussions which used similar phrases, but as a way precisely of not saying psuke sol in the Platonic sense. Because actually in that verse, Ephesians 3:16, which our questioner just quoted, Paul talks about God giving you that by the riches of his glory you might be strengthened through his spirit into the inner human. So it's God's spirit providing strength for our own interiority, if I can put it like that. So he's not there using pneuma to reference our interiority. The pneuma is God's pneuma, which is breathing life and energy into the. The person that we really are at our deepest level. I mean, we can use all sorts of periphrastic ways of getting at that point. But I do want to say that, yes, the pneuma, the spirit of a human being as well as God's spirit, this is one of Paul's ways of referring to something which is hugely important about who we really are at the deepest level and which then joins up mysteriously with the language about God's spirit. And I'm thinking, for instance of 1 Corinthians 6:17, when Paul is talking about marriage, actually. And he says that when two people are joined together in sexual intercourse, the two become one flesh. And then verse 17 he says, but the one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. As though somehow our spirit, whoever we are in the deep spiritual sense, is joined together with the Lord in a union for which the human coming together sexually is a kind of a distant pointer. And I'm reminded of the passage in Ephesians 5 where man leaves his father and mother cleaves to his wife. And Paul says, I'm talking about Christ in the church. And so then you've got the passage in Romans 8 when he talks about the Spirit bear as God's spirit bearing witness with our Spirit, that we are God's children, which goes with the whole idea of the love of God being poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. And it's as though Paul wants to say simultaneously God's Spirit comes to dwell within and strengthen and give life to our most inner being. And that this somehow joins up with the person that we deeply are anyway, for which the word puma spirit is a much better word than psuche, which could easily be misunderstood in the direction of, as you said, of the Platonic soul, which is a pre existent thing which comes into a human body and then goes away again. That's not what the New Testament's about. So I want to say when we line up all the uses of pneuma in Paul, it can be quite bewildering because there does seem to be this flexibility between God's Spirit and our Spirit. But I think that's quite deliberate and it bespeaks something of God's intention as he says in that same passage in Ephesians 3, that the Messiah may dwell in your hearts through faith. I don't think that's anything other than what verse 16 is talking about. In fact, it's the next verse I just quoted, that the Messiah may dwell through faith in your hearts, that you may be rooted and grounded in love. It's as though Paul is coming from every possible angle at saying that God, through the Messiah, through the Spirit, comes to dwell with us, so that we are dwelling in. In and with him. And at that point, language is starting to break down, but certainly humor is at the center of it. And I just note that, as I say in that book which our correspondent just quoted, when we have various scenes in the New Testament, when somebody is dying, they don't say father or Lord, receive my soul. They say, receive my spirit. Jesus himself says, into your hands, I commend my spirit, which is a quote from the psalm. And Stephen, when he's being martyred, he says, lord Jesus, receive my spirit. There is something about the Spirit, our own spirit, our own deepest reality, which if it's been indwelt by God's spirit, becomes, as it were, more truly itself. And I think that's at the heart of what Paul is saying there.
- [12:26]
Mike Bird
Yeah, well, thanks for explaining that distinction, Tom. I can honestly say no heresies detected. So a good way of understanding the difference between numa and suk. And I want to thank Kyle for that very important juxtaposition of the words su and numa. And hopefully everyone just heard what I did there. But our next, our next word for discussion is the word ecclesia. It's the word for church. Steve Patterson from Wellington in New Zealand. Great place, New Zealand. He asked this, what did ecclesia mean in New Testament times? And please don't say church as we know it in the west today. Maybe Jesus might say something greater than the churches here, kind of alluding to Matthew 12:6. Now, Tom, before you answer this question, I've got to tell you one brief, funny anecdote. In Australia, there is a company that makes lemonade called Kirk's. So it's Kirk's Lemonade. I don't know if you have it in the. In the uk, but when I got to Scotland, I. The first newspaper I saw said on the front page, the Kirk urges people to pray for the end of the war in Iraq. And I remember thinking to myself, the lemonade company is urging people to pray. And that's front page news in Scotland. This is a weird place. Even though even the lemonade is different. Even the lemonade is different. Although it turns out that kirk is, I think, an old Gaelic word for, for ecclesia, you know, for the, for the, the kirk, the local church in Scotland. Anyway, so that was a valuable lesson I learned when I got to Scotland about the differences between lemonade and the church. Otherwise. Tom, to answer Stephen's question, what does ecclesia mean in the New Testament? How is it different for us now? Your, your. Well, our dear friend Nick Perrin said something at a, at a wheaton conference in 2010 and he said a lot of people think of the church as if it's the weekly meeting of Jesus's Facebook friends. So we're just basically a mass of religious consumers or have our individual subscription to the Jesus Salvation Service. And, and once a week we gather in the one location, have some coffee, get some music, get a Coldplay concert, bit of a TED Talk kind of like, then we all go home again. That's a very consumerist view of church, at least in practice. How is our church today similar and different to the church back then?
- [15:10]
Tom Wright
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question and really it takes all of church history to tease that out and answer it properly. But I'm very much aware of the phenomenon, phenomenon to which that line from Nick Perrin refers that some people are so much in reaction against the kind of heavy top down formality of some styles of doing church. Often this goes with things that they vaguely remember from their parents generation or whatever and they're reacting against that. The idea of this great organization that just marches on and does its own thing and, and seems to stifle the life out of real ordinary Christians or people who would like to be real ordinary Christians. And so they swing the other way and they make church simply mean, as you say, some people happen to like worshiping together, so they get together on a Sunday to sing hymns and maybe hear a sermon or whatever. And I want to say typical Anglican compromise, it's neither of those things. It's something much better and much richer and much more dynamic actually than either of those extremes. And we have to go back to the beginning. And the Greek word ecclesia is a word which is used in the first century by Judeans, by writers like Josephus to refer to synagogue communities. Synagogue communities were already understood in the first century to be kind of extensions of the single life of the people of God, focused on the Temple in Jerusalem, which is why synagogues would, would be built in such a way as to be facing towards the Temple, even After the destruction of the Temple, I think that was the case. The sort of sense that we really are one scattered community, but that in this particular place all loyal Judeans will turn up at synagogue. Because we are the called out people. The ekklesia is from ekaleo. Kaleo is to call. Ek is out. So people who are called out from the world as Israel was out, to be the light of the world, to be the salt of the earth, and then called out on a Shabbat morning, or even the Friday evening, if you're in the normal Judaic tradition, Friday night through to Saturday, called out to come together to hear scriptures read, to hear an exposition, a sermon, whatever, and to pray and to sing the Psalms and to do all the other things which. Which go to make up synagogue worship. So the church in the New Testament grows out of that tradition and in a sense doesn't see itself as radically different. Because sometimes in Paul, it looks as though he's talking about the different communities which might be a whole synagogue that might have decided to follow Jesus. And they don't become something else. They now simply are the ecclesia which is in Jesus or which is in relation to Jesus. And so Paul has a variety of uses of the word ecclesia, sometimes which are references to individual ecclesial communities. In Galatians 1:22, he says that when I was in Jerusalem, I remained unknown by sight to the churches of Judea which were in the Messiah. And the word there is ecclesiais the ecclesias of the Judeans in the Messiah. So it's as though you've got these synagogue communities. And some of them have said, we're actually following this man Jesus. Now we think he's the Messiah. But they don't stop being an ecclesia. They are simply, like Paul himself, newly focused on Jesus, the Messiah. And so Paul can use the word ecclesia and in the plural to refer to the different communities. There's a synagogue or an ecclesia in that village over there. There's another one in that town over there. And so on. When in First Corinthians, he's giving some quite strict instructions about what men and women should wear in church and that sort of thing. He says, if anyone is disputing this, we have no other tradition. And nor do the churches plural of the Messiah. So that it's quite clear he can use the word in the plural to mean local assemblies. But at time he also can use the word in the singular to refer to the large. I Don't know what word to use. The large family, the large company, the large people, which includes all believers in Christ. So that in Ephesians he talks about glory in the church and in Christ Jesus. And he talks about the man, woman relationship, man leaving his father and mother, cleaving to his wife and becoming one flesh. He says this is a great mystery, but I take it to refer to the Messiah and the church, the church as a whole. And so we've got these two strands in the New Testament which aren't pulling against one another. Because as with the synagogue communities. Yes, of course, that synagogue community over the other side of the hill there, they may not really get to know the people in this village too well seen from time to time. But actually we are all part of the same family of the people of God focused on God's dwelling in the temple and so on. So now the ecclesia is the whole family of the people of God focused on God's dwelling in Christ, in Jesus, and then able to be thought of in its diverse manifestation, as well as able to be thought of in its individual but larger unity. I hope that's clear. This is difficult book because of the way that people have often used the words, but I think. I think when we look at the New Testament, that's how it comes out.
- [21:16]
Mike Bird
Yeah, that's. That's a much better way of thinking about it rather than just a religious club, because a lot. A lot of people can either think of the church is the building, whereas we know the church. The church is the people, not the steeple. Or in. In Western culture, religion is kind of like a hobby. It's sort of, you know, something, you know. You know, some people collect spoons, some people like race cars, some people go to church, you know, as if. As if it's a hobby. Whereas Christianity is a way of life, not simply a hobby. I do for one hour a week. And I think what you've given there, Tom, is a good corrective and it situates the word church in the. Well, in. In the life of Jesus, the apostles and this new messianic movement that was burgeoning and growing. So, yeah, great way to put it.
- [22:04]
Tom Wright
Yeah, it's interesting you say that about the hobby. I've often noticed that in some newspapers, if there is a little column on a weekend about the church, Christian faith, whatever, it's there alongside a column on chess or a column on bridge or that sort of thing. Some people really like this stuff. So let's have a column on it. And it's really patronizing to put the church into that bracket.
- [22:34]
Mike Bird
But I think that's one of the symptoms of the end of Christendom, that we're no longer really viewed as the sort of lifeblood as a whole nation or civilization. We're now relegated to a private hobby. You could say that's, that's like post Christendom, post Reformation, post enlightenment is one of the downsides, the way the church
- [22:57]
Tom Wright
is situated until and unless some church leader publicly says something which that newspaper disapproves of. Yes, then it gets into the front pages.
- [23:09]
Mike Bird
Exactly. Exactly. Well, Tom, we're going to take a break, but when we come back, we're going to look at the question, does God repent? Back in a moment. Pastor, you spend hours every week on your sermons, but come Sunday morning, are you absolutely sure of what your congregation needs, or are you just guessing? When people quietly slip out because they're fighting a battle you can't see, it's heartbreaking. What if you could see exactly where your church is growing, where it's not, and what to do next? That's Next Step for church. Backed by 200 years of American Bible Society research, this free assessment gives you the tools you need to stop guessing and start knowing for sure. Imagine seeing the big picture of what your church is dealing with. Imagine getting ideas to support people who need it most. And imagine tracking and celebrating their progress year over year. The team behind Next Step for Church is hosting a live Q and A to show you exactly how it works. Grab your spot@nextstepforchurch.org After a quick overview, they'll answer your question so you can see how it fits with your specific congregation. Sign up today at nextstepforchurch.org it's time to turn the lights on and stop guessing about what your people need. Save your seat@nextstepforchurch.org you can't reason with the sun.
- [24:57]
Tom Wright
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- [25:26]
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Mike Bird
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- [26:02]
Mike Bird
Welcome back. Our final question for this episode comes from Jeremy Gray of Missouri. This is about repentance, including God's repentance. That's what Jeremy asks. Dear Tom, the Hebrew word naham for repent, relent, change, mind is used when the Lord was sorry that he had made man. That's from Genesis 6:6, when the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people in Exodus 32:14. And yet in 1 Samuel 15:29, it says, the glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man that he should have regret. And this is the nut of the issue. How do you hold these passages together? Does this point to genuine relational responsiveness? Are in God or, or is it primarily anthropomorphic language that preserves his unchanging character and the classical attribute of immutability? TOM does, does God change? Does God change his mind? Because, because metanoia means to have a change of mind. Does God say, well, I was going to destroy the Israelites, but, you know, Moses put forward a very, very good case and he's told me to chill out a bit, not to be consumed in my wrath. Then I've changed my mind on the matter. Is that what's happening in these passages in the Bible?
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Tom Wright
Tom yeah, I actually enjoy the sort of anthropomorphism almost of it's like God's dialogue with Abraham about what's going to happen to Sodom and so on. And Abraham is kind of beating God down. If we find 50 people there, if we find 10. And we wanted to go a little bit further and note the Lord went his way after that, that was quite enough negotiation, thank you very much. But there was a sort of sense of Abraham learning something about God, whether God was learning something about God. The text doesn't quite say that, but it implies certainly something which cuts against the classical immutability. You know, so many Christians kind of inherit this idea of God who is totally other, totally different. And as well as being invisible and immortal, he's immutable, unchangeable, and he's actually not very like Jesus. And that's a problem. It's when your God stops being like Jesus that, you know, you're actually bordering on some very dodgy stuff. Because in the New Testament, no one has ever seen God, but Jesus, the only begotten son, has revealed him, has made him known, and so as we've been talking in other episodes, we see Jesus struggling with questions. What shall I say, Father, save me from this isle? No, for this reason I came to this hour. What's going on here? Jesus as a human being is wrestling with these issues. And this is God Incarnate who is wrestling with these issues. It's like when Jesus weeps at the tomb of Lazarus. This is God incarnate weeping at the tomb of his friend Jesus.
- [29:12]
Mike Bird
And he's not playing, he's not play acting. It's real.
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Tom Wright
Exactly. And Jesus doesn't stop being God incarnate in order to weep at the tomb of his friend or to ask the question, am I going in the right direction? And so there's something very mysterious about who God actually is. And so when we come to the question of God repenting, I mean, our correspondent there refers us to Genesis, sorry, to Exodus 32. What was the verse? Oh yeah, that's right. And it says, and God repented in connection with the evil which he had purposed to do. And as he says, the Hebrew word there is vayanachem God. But I notice that the same verb comes in the passage in 1 Samuel, which was also quoted to us. 1 Samuel 15:29, does indeed say that God is not a man, that he should repent. But just a few verses later, in verse 35, it says that Saul and Samuel never met anymore after Samuel had denounced Saul. And then it says the chapter ends, chapter 15, verse 35, that Yahweh repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. And it's the same word for Yahweh, Nicham ki himlach eth sha' ul al Yisrael. And so the passage in First Samuel, I think, is itself stating the paradox that says God is not a man, that he should repent. He doesn't change his mind. But then almost immediately afterwards, says God looked back at his choice of Saul and thought, I wish I'd never done that. And then we're back with the Genesis 6 thing about God repenting that he'd made humans. And I think that's part of the tragedy of creation, is that God's creatures, his human creatures, are able to do things which God did not intend them to do. It's like when in the prophets it says that you sacrificed your sons and your daughters to Moloch, which was something that never even entered my head. It never occurred to me that you would do that kind of thing. And I think that's part of the shame and the glory of Creation, that it is other than God and has the possibility to rebel against God, so that we've got somehow to hold together God's overarching sovereign love with the fact that he's made a world that is other than himself, which he then intends to redeem and rescue, but which at the moment does have the capacity to do things which he finds abhorrent. And, I mean, it's in that space that of course we have to understand all the wicked things that are going on in the world. When God looks at the world, he doesn't just sit back and say, well, my providence is working itself out. That's all right. No, God is aware of the fall of a sparrow, how much more of the death of a whole schoolroom full of children when somebody's bomb drops on their school, and so on and so forth. So that I think I want to move closer towards the idea of God grieving and being sorry for what his human creatures have done, because he never intended that they would go there. God had a perfect will for them, but part of them being his creatures was that they would have the chance to do it differently, to do it the other way around. So I think the paradox is bound to remain, but ultimately it ends up with the paradox of Jesus the Son of God. As we said in a previous episode, learning obedience through the things that he suffered. Jesus did not stop being sovereign. He did not stop being the Lord of heaven and earth, but as a human being and as God incarnate, he had to live through this and die through this. And so like most theological mysteries, it comes back to the cross at the end.
- [33:37]
Mike Bird
Yeah, I like what you're saying, Tom. It reminds me that God has to be at least as nice as Jesus. You know, God is as nice as Jesus because it's God the Father who sent God the Son. So God is as nice as Jesus. Yeah, I'm teaching theology at the moment. We're getting into the doctrine of God proper and we're wrestling with, you know, we don't want to have a view of God that is stale, inert, just sort of. He's made all these eternal decrees and now the algorithm is just running through eternity. Then there's the opposite extreme. There's those, those open theist people say, well, God doesn't really know the future, but don't worry, he's omni competent. He can probably handle anything. You know, I. I don't like. I don't like that. But I had a colleague, Graham. Graham Cole, former principal of Ridley College, wrote a Great article. Once saying God is proactive, interactive and reactive. And I found that article he wrote was a great way of getting through the, the mass of all these debates. But I think that's a, that's a, that's a great way to put it, Tom.
- [34:47]
Tom Wright
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and the, the idea of, of Jesus perfectly reflecting God. It's a famous saying of the late Archbishop Michael Ramsey, which then I think it may go back to William Temple. I'm not sure. There's a sort of succession of episcopal obitadicta that God is Christlike and in him is no unchristlikeness at all.
- [35:10]
Mike Bird
Yes.
- [35:11]
Tom Wright
If we start having a picture of God which makes us say, well, of course Jesus was a bit different then. Were were in danger at that point.
- [35:20]
Mike Bird
Yeah, that's great. Well, that ends our study of words for this week. Our biblical words. Suke numa ecclesia metanoia. In our next episode, we're going to look at the fate of the northern tribes of Israel. What happened to them, the ones taken into captivity by the Assyrians. We're going to look at the theme of atonement in 2 Corinthians 5 and then discuss which Old Testament Christians should use. Should it be the Hebrew Old Testament, the Greek Old Testament, or of course, the King James Old Testament? We'll find out that one. And you can always send us your questions@askantry.com and with a bit of luck, your questions will get on the program. Now, Tom, I have to tell you, I've been once again reading through the vision of Ephesians. I've been loving it and I forgot what I thought was the best section of the book. I just realized, I think it's your discussion of the household codes in the end of chapter 5, Ephesians 6. That's a great vision or a great exposition of marriage mutuality. Men and women in Cry. I think that's one of the best parts of the book. We'll be doing a bonus episode on that shortly. And if you don't want to miss out on Tom and I discussing the household codes, make sure you subscribe. Don't let any imbuggerence impede you from becoming a subscriber to our bonus episodes. That's. That's all I'll say. That's all I'll say. All I'll say about it. For now, anyway, it's goodbye for me, Mike Bird.
- [36:58]
Tom Wright
Goodbye from me, Tom Wright.
- [36:59]
Mike Bird
And we'll see you on the next episode of Ask nt Write Anything.
- [37:24]
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Mike Bird
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Mike Bird
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Mike Bird
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- [38:14]
Commercial Announcer
of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com.