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Becker’s Healthcare Podcast
Dr. Jason R. Williams, President and Director at WCI, and Dr. Nathan Goodyear, Integrative Medicine Physician
00:17:15
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- [00:00]
Dr. Jason Williams
Brian. Hi, everyone.
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Brian Zimmerman
This is Brian Zimmerman with Beckers Healthcare. Thank you so much for tuning into the Beckers Healthcare podcast. Today I'm joined by two leaders with the Williams Cancer Institute, Dr. Jason Williams and Dr. Nathan Goodyear. Thank you both for being on the podcast today. Really, truly a pleasure to have you.
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Dr. Jason Williams
Thank you for having us.
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Dr. Nathan Goodyear
Yes, thank you.
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Brian Zimmerman
Excellent. Let's dive in here. Let's meet you both a little bit more. Can each of you sort of introduce yourselves and share a bit about your professional background and the work you're doing now? Dr. Goodyear, would you like to kick us off there?
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Dr. Nathan Goodyear
Sure. Well, I guess the way I would start that off is we kind of begin together. We started off at LSU Health Science Centers in Shreveport. In medical school, we sat next to each other for two years, just about. And then from that standpoint, we went into our clinical worlds, which kind of took us apart. He went down to Alabama, which he'll say, and I went off to Tennessee. And so from that standpoint, I got into the integrative medicine space really quick, of a pelvic floor surgeon by training. And so from my perspective, it was all about the healing. And honestly, it was all about the immune system because of the issues related to the pelvic floor mesh back in the 2000s. But through that process, I migrated through immunotherapy and wellness and health until I had a tumor of my own, a really rare form of tumor called a pheochromocytoma. And I knew from that standpoint it was all about integrative oncology. And so from that standpoint, I've been in the integrative oncology space for a little bit over eight years, and then basically reconnected with Jason through podcasting and the immune system and immunotherapy. So that's how we reconnected. And I've been back working with him now for over a year now. So that's a quick synopsis of my journey.
- [01:52]
Brian Zimmerman
Yeah, appreciate that, Nathan, and appreciate the details about your background and sharing your personal experience. What a great journey you've been on with. With your colleague Jason. So, Jason, I'll hand it over to you now to hear more about your background.
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Dr. Jason Williams
Sure. Yeah, yeah, it's great. You know, Nathan and I were able to reconnect and. And, you know, have this similar interest in all those years. We didn't know it back in medical school, but. But then, you know, later ran into each other, you know, through patients and things like that. And, yeah, you know, for me, I'm, you know, radiologist who really wanted to, to be a medical oncologist. But what I saw was that the medical oncology was not really treating cancer the, the correct way. You know, when I was involved in research and we were doing studies in mice, we were, we were getting really good results, but we were getting it by injecting into the tumors. And it just seemed like they weren't doing that standard, you know, practice. And then when in medical school I started seeing that, you know, the interventional radiologists or radiologists in general had the ability to put needles into tumors for biopsies. I said, well, this is a chance that you could treat the tumor. And so I thought that's really the future. It's not in, you know, giving drugs orally or intravenously. It's actually being able to go right to the tumor itself. And so I thought it'd be better served to be a radiologist and then sort of learn the oncology with it, which is what I did. So I kind of did, you know, all the radiology stuff and being able to do all the procedures. But then I still stayed heavily focused on, you know, the, the medical side and the, the particularly in immunotherapy. And so we have developed some drugs. I was co founder of a company called Synchromune and we have a drug that's called Synct, that's currently in clinical trials for prostate cancer. But yeah, most of my work is looking at the combining what we call ablation, sticking a needle in the tumor and killing it with various different energy sources or freezing and combining that with immunotherapies to get the immune system to see and attack the cancer.
- [03:58]
Brian Zimmerman
Appreciate that background. Dr. Williams, thank you so much. Let's move forward now, which is melit this to this next question for each of you to sort of take in whatever direction you want, which is what trends are you watching right now? What are you paying attention to as it relates to your work? What's happening in the industry that you think is important that our listeners should also be thinking about? Dr. Williams, I'll give you the, the first crack at this one.
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Dr. Jason Williams
Yeah, well, you know, I think, I think, you know, there's big interest right now in the gut microbiome, you know, and I think that that's, that's a real huge area and that, you know, obviously there's a lot of things in the environment that are negatively impacting the gut microbiome, a lot of things in food source that's doing that that's, you know, increased, maybe increasing cancer Risk increase. And also we look heavily at the gut microbiome for helping cancer patients in their treatment. And so that's a real important area. And we've been in it for a while, but it's now starting to really gain attention. And I think that this is an area that we really need to look at, because what we need to be able to do is try to prevent people from getting cancer in the first place. And so if we can work on maybe avoiding these things that are bad for the gut microbiome, we probably could reduce cancer incidence just with that. Yeah, yeah.
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Brian Zimmerman
Important one to call out.
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Dr. Nathan Goodyear
Nathan.
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Brian Zimmerman
Dr. Gujar, what would you add or reemphasize from Jason's answer?
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Dr. Nathan Goodyear
Yeah, you know, we're constantly tapping the future to bring that to medicine today, obviously to serve patients. And I think Jason's correct on the gut microbiome. I would add to that the tumor microbiome. We're now beginning to understand, understand as a science always does inform us that there's not just a microbiome in the gut, but there's also a microbiome related to the tumor. And not only are they separate at the same time, but they actually communicate. And in fact, the gut microbiome can in some ways, seed the tumors, is what some of the research suggests. And so in that that actually impacts the immune system, strangely enough, as well as efficacy or resistance to treatment. But all of this is born out of this kind of this area of precision cancer care multiomics. The right treatment for the right patient at right combination at the right time. And that's really what we're after. But I think one of the things that we're really looking at in terms of beyond just intratumoral, we're actually looking to change it, how the whole concept of cancer is approached in general. So instead of going to war on cancer and targeting tumor for destruction, how about working to transform cells like cancer back to something that's not cancer? Where we believe the future of cancer care is going is something that is even beyond what we're doing, though. I tell people we're working on the future of cancer care. That's the intratumoral approach which Dr. Williams Williams Cancer institute is pioneering. We're already working on the future of the future.
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Brian Zimmerman
That's amazing. Can you share a little bit more about how we get to that future? What's it going to take to transform cancer care into this future state that you described? Obviously, you're doing some of that work now, but curious if you can add on that or expand on that, Nathan?
- [07:15]
Dr. Nathan Goodyear
Well, I think the issue there, and this is one thing that Jason's done really well and that, you know, us coming together has been great, is connecting dots and building relationships, honestly. And being back together with Jason now for over a year, it's really. It's awesome to see how he has built relationships in a diversity of, really stratosphere of. Of different types of professions. And it's a different thought that I think pushes us outside of the group think to actually be creative and critical in thinking. And I think it's that kind of forcing yourself outside of the box, making yourself intentionally uncomfortable to solve solutions that nobody else is looking at. I think that's. I think that's what. What really we're. We're doing and what Jason has really pioneered and me coming on as part of the team, I think is just really helping add to that process.
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Brian Zimmerman
And Jason, what would you add?
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Dr. Jason Williams
Yeah. Yeah. So, Stephanie, you know, I think our, you know, big thing is this. We're trying. You want to try to change sort of the. The way that cancer is approached and treat. And treated. You know, I mean, I really believe that, you know, cancer treatment should occur at the time of the biopsy. I mean, you shouldn't stick a needle in a tumor that's a chance you could treat it then. But the issues are always like payment issues. Right. So that, you know, if you can't get insurance payment for some of these things, then they're hard to get done. And so how do we change the system for that? And, you know, the system seems to be geared to reward for doing more and more things to the patient. Whereas this would be a way to actually minimize that and would reduce cost, which, you know, in some ways the system doesn't like. So, so we're, you know, we're trying to. We're trying to slowly get there. And we're doing. We have our. We have some clinical trials, obviously in the US And Mexico as well. And then we're going to start some trials probably in Saudi Arabia, and hopefully we can try to change this where cancer patients can be treated right from the start, because I think it's a big mistake. We're biopsying, and then you're waiting some time to do anything. And we know that the biopsy can inflame the tumor, can make it behave more aggressively. That's been shown in studies. And so we're missing an opportunity. So.
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Brian Zimmerman
Yeah, and big changes needed there. But it's sort of, you. The work you're trying to do I gather from the, from this conversation is lay the foundation, the framework for those changes to be made. And do you imagine that the work that you can, you're doing can be replicated and then sort of maybe change the incentive sort of system that healthcare works in? Is that your ultimate hope here, Jason?
- [09:54]
Dr. Jason Williams
Yeah, it is. You know, I mean, the thing is that, you know, we just want what's the best for people, what's the best for cancer patients. And you know, we're trying to just find our ways to make that happen. You know, we have some of our practice where obviously we're trying to, to do this on our own, you know, treating the patients. And then we're. But we're also trying to do it under, you know, the FDA and things like that to try to change the system, to try to change. Because, you know, if it's just us doing it, that's one thing, but we really need to get it to where, you know, everybody's doing this. And so, you know, that's, and that's what we're trying to do.
- [10:29]
Brian Zimmerman
Gotcha. Let's move now. I want to hear a little bit more. We've heard about the, the work you're doing, but I want to, I guess put some more specifics around in terms what, what have you just been proud about in the last six to 18 months, Nathan, do you want to share that?
- [10:44]
Dr. Nathan Goodyear
Yeah. So for me it's, it's the patient healing. I mean, this concept when people are diagnosed with cancer, Brian, is that what they have before them is a journey of which they want no part of. And that's why it's just built in fear. They see the body degradation, they see the life drain from, they see the impact on their family lives. But what, but what I've been able to see through this approach of actually working with the body, empowering the immune system. And you can only do that by going to the tumor. But in so doing, patients don't have to wait to survive treatment, then recover, then live. It's actually something that begins when they start treatment. It kind of taps into what Doc Jason was talking about. Why biopsy, then wait, then treat. It's like cancer works on a quantum physics level and we're working on this sequential process, one dimensional level. Patients should be able to heal, live target tumor, and support their immune system as they go through treatment. We were just treating a patient yesterday who has metastatic stage 4 breast cancer. She has a area that has basically spread to her sternum in her chest. This woman is amazing because she golfs three times a day. I mean, so we. Three times a week. Three times a week. And she has stage 4 bone metastasis from breast cancer. Not only bone metastasis, but it's in her sternum, which would affect her golf swing. Now, I would have loved to have asked her what her score was, because if it was 6, you know, if she was shooting 69 to 70, that would be even a better story. But it shows you you don't have to wait to live. When it comes to cancer treatment. What we're doing at the Williams Cancer Institute is actually helping you live as you begin healing from cancer today.
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Brian Zimmerman
That's really amazing and a great story, too.
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Dr. Jason Williams
I wish you did get the score.
- [12:37]
Brian Zimmerman
We've got to go back and figure.
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Dr. Jason Williams
Out what that means, because I could.
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Dr. Nathan Goodyear
Say, hey, I'm playing golf, but I shoot 120, but nobody would thank you.
- [12:47]
Dr. Jason Williams
Right, right.
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Brian Zimmerman
Jason, what would you say? What work are you proud of?
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Dr. Jason Williams
Yeah, well, you know, I think definitely what Nathan saying is. Is definitely spot on. And, you know, I think that, you know, our work, just trying to reach out to people and patients and trying to educate them. I mean, you know, the thing is that, you know, we. We can't treat everybody ourselves, but, you know, we. We can try to, like, get information out there so that patients can hopefully, you know, do things with their own doctors and try to convince and change treatment. And so. So, yeah, you know, we just want to make things better for. For all the patients. And, you know, we. And we do whatever it takes to. To try to. To get that out there. And so. And yeah, I mean, you know, definitely the process of treating the patients, you know, we're trying to change it where, you know, before a cancer patient was treated and they what, you know, they lose a breast, they lose the body part, they remind their scarring, you know, all the side effects of chemo, radiation, those type of things. We want a cancer patient to be able to, you know, have cancer treatment successful, but to be the same as they were or better than they were before they had cancer. And, you know, we don't want them to have these daily reminders where every time they look in the mirror or something like that, they know, you know, they're going to think cancer. I mean, this is. That harms their whole life. We want to do this in a way that, you know, is. Is good for people and so that they don't. They don't have that. That. That trauma with that treatment.
- [14:24]
Brian Zimmerman
I really appreciate the time you both have taken to. To Talk to, to me and our audience about the exciting work you're doing and the passion really comes through and hopefully excited to continue this conversation with you all further as you continue to do this work. But before we close out and let you go, I guess just one final question to each of you. What advice would you give to listeners out there who are in healthcare, who are in leadership roles potentially? What would you say to them? Nathan, let's start with you, and Jason will finish with you.
- [14:56]
Dr. Nathan Goodyear
I would say let's not forget who we serve. We serve the patients. And I would say that service attitude of medicine and physicians has been a little bit lost or maybe a little bit clouded over the last 30 to 50 years, but also I think for the sake of patients, because they demand it, we need to dream bigger, we need to think bigger, and we need to keep innovating, not rest on the successes of the past, but actually build the future for patients. And one that actually is healing, not one based on war and destruction, which is what we have with cancer, but one that actually gives people the ability to live and live whole and to live long. And we can only do that by working together and building bridges. So that's, that's what I would say.
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Brian Zimmerman
Thank you, Jason.
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Dr. Jason Williams
Yeah. I think, you know, one of the big things with, with healthcare providers, you know, is that we need to realize that, you know, this is a partnership with the patients and we need, we need to listen to them and try to, to work with them. And, you know, I've learned a lot from patients. Patients bring me lots of interesting things. And I think we shouldn't assume that we know everything and that, you know, but the patients, you know, this is their life. I mean, they're, you know, a lot of it. I say, you know, the patient needs to go and do their own research. And I think us as healthcare providers, you know, we need to respect a lot of that. We shouldn't just dismiss, you know, if the patient comes in with certain ideas, you know, we should, we should talk with them openly and say, look, this is a team. What can we do together? How can we do this to make the best for you as a patient?
- [16:29]
Brian Zimmerman
It also. Patients want different things from their life. Right. They have different needs. So they.
- [16:33]
Dr. Jason Williams
That's right.
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Brian Zimmerman
Yeah. So they're going to need different treatments to meet what they desire. And you're not going to know that if you don't talk to them.
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Dr. Jason Williams
Yeah, yeah, because that's true. Because some patients, you know, want to go one direction, want to and, you know, you try to support that, because I think if you go against the patient's sort of, you know, ideals or wishes, they don't do as well.
- [16:52]
Brian Zimmerman
Yeah. Well, a strong place for us to close out. Dr. Williams, Dr. Goodyear, thank you so much for. For taking the time to speak me today.
- [17:01]
Dr. Jason Williams
Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you, Brian.