← Becker’s Healthcare Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
This is Scott Becker with the Becker's Healthcare podcast. I'm thrilled today to be joined by two leaders from Advocate Health. Advocate Health is one of the largest not for profit health systems in the country today. It's incredibly well led, just reported an improvement in margins this past quarter and just overall a really well run system. We're thrilled today to be joined by two leaders that focus on community impact in rural health. Two winners we have with us today are Dr. Wando Oiowola. Wando is going to help me with the pronunciation so I don't embarrass myself too much and serves as the president of the national center for Clinical and Community Impact and Senior Vice President, Advocate Health. We're also joined by Dr. Matt Anderson and Dr. Anderson's physician executive, chief physician executive, North Carolina, Georgia Division at Advocate Health. Of course, that encompasses what was the former atrium area, which is a huge part of Etiquette Health. Wando and Matt, I'm going to ask you to take a moment to introduce yourself. Wando, would you mind starting?
- [01:11]
B
Sure. Yes. Thanks, Scott. As you said, My name is Dr. Wando Olayola. I'm a family physician and I serve as the president of Advocate Health national center for Clinical and Community Impact. And so some of our rural health strategy is part of this center.
- [01:27]
A
Thank you. And tell us just a little bit about the sort of national center for Community Impact and what that looks like. Just give us a little bit of that background.
- [01:37]
B
Yeah, so this, this center is focused on really understanding differences in health outcomes and experiences of care for people from all different communities and applying kind of a community health approach to understanding the needs of the community, designing programs and services that respond to those needs and working with the community to improve their overall health. So that work rolls up to me through the entire enterprise. And so that includes urban, rural, everything in between, and our patients from all sorts of backgrounds.
- [02:11]
A
Amazing. And I'll ask you one other question. When it comes time for the Ohio State Michigan game each year, where do your loyalties lie?
- [02:25]
B
Well, you know, I, I don't know if I, I don't know if there's any, it's kind of like built into my blood and my gene pool at this point. So I, you know, I'm very, very avid Ohio State fan and, and double graduate from there and so have a very long film history there. So I don't really have. Doesn't take me long to answer that honestly. Just, just a pretty quick answer. Now. I hope we will show up the right way this year, but I'M not.
- [02:53]
A
All that really counts is if they beat Michigan. And God bless the Buckeyes. Matt, Dr. Anderson, can you take a moment and introduce yourself? And I might have to ask you about UNC versus Duke at some point too. But Dr. Anderson, tell us a little bit about your yourself and your background.
- [03:08]
C
Yeah, so I'm an internal medicine doc by background and as you mentioned, I'm the chief position executive for our North Carolina Georgia division. I also do a lot of work with our clinical transformation portfolio at Advocate, including our Enterprise Virtual Health team and then our Wellness and Care in the Home models, including Hospital at Home and other similar pieces. So excited about the work that we're doing and privileged to get the lead in and work with Wando on a number of initiatives and how we integrate and incorporate our for all mission and the work that she's leading into everything that we do on the operational side. I will tell you. So I am actually a Midwestern guy by background, so I'm an Iowa Hawkeye graduate from Iowa City and so thankfully for us, we don't have to play Ohio State this year. So Wanda will take it easy on me then.
- [03:57]
B
Well.
- [03:59]
A
Fantastic. My partner and the CEO of Becker's Healthcare is an Iowa Hawkeye and we have a son who went to Iowa. So we're big fans as well. And I see you spent time in the UW system too, and just fantastic. University of Minnesota. University of Iowa. Yes, A true Midwesterner. So God bless you too. So tell us about Wanda. Why don't you start with the work that you're doing in rural healthcare and then clinical impact generally too.
- [04:26]
B
Yeah. So I mean, I'm really excited about what we have shared and what you hope you had a chance to see in our white paper that came out. Because Advocate Health, I think that people think about us as, you know, the large organization that we are. I don't think people always give us when they think about us, they don't always think about us as a large, one of the largest providers of rural health care in the nation and the kind of size of our footprint and how much innovation and support we bring to rural communities. And so it's been really I've been Advocate Health for a year now and so it's been really illuminating for me to understand the depth of our work and our investments and our commitment to rural communities. What we are trying to do is make sure that regardless of where you live and whatever zip code you're from, that you are able to have access to the highest quality of care and we think about that as we think about our vast and diverse geography and dairy farms in Wisconsin, our rural communities in Georgia and North Carolina. We know that in many rural communities, people do not have access to the same level of care that they could get if they go to some of the larger, bigger metrics, urban centers. So our vision is really to make sure that no matter where you live, if you're anywhere in our footprint, that you have access to cutting edge, high quality, really technology inspired and patient centered care no matter where you are. And that means to do that, you know, it means pulling together, you know, a lot of the work that we've done a lot of great work already, but thinking through like we've done a lot of good work already, how do we really, for this next iteration of our rural health effort, how do we do even more, do even better, reach more communities, touch more lives, improve the health of more communities? And that's really what this work is focused on.
- [06:19]
A
Thank you. And talk a little bit about what are you most excited about currently? Dr. What are you most focused on and excited about as you work through this work?
- [06:29]
B
It's interesting because when you're doing this work, you have to think at the macro level, how do we design things for the big quote unquote, rural footprint? But then what I'm really excited about is that every community that we're talking about across the footprint looks different. Their needs are different, their challenges are different, their resources and opportunities are different. And so I think the ability to think of this macro lens across the enterprise, but also really deeply understand the needs of very specific communities and adapt the way we're thinking about care and resources and support in ways that really have meaning for those individual communities and the people that are in them. So I just love the ability to go from this large view down to like, what does this person that lives on this street, that works on this farm, actually need to be healthy? And so to be able to do that is pretty exciting.
- [07:23]
A
And with such shortages of healthcare providers in rural areas, how do you tackle some of this? How do we assure that there's the right resources in the right place? How do you think about some of those things? And Dr. Anderson, I'll turn to you in a moment on that as well. How do you think about some of those things? How do you get the right resources in the right place?
- [07:45]
B
One of the things that we're emphasizing in our, as we continue to advance this work is really the notion that there's a lot of talent, expertise in the communities that we're talking about serving and the communities that we serve currently and trying to figure out the best way to harness that expertise, create pathways for people that want to go into careers in healthcare, but maybe don't necessarily see the obvious path or have the training programs or the facilities or the resources to do that. We're thinking more and more about, like, how do you really tap into the expertise that already exists and the interests exist and create awareness. Sometimes people just, they might really be interested in health career, but they don't really know that it's an option or think about it as an option until there's an exposure or an experience that allows them to see it. And so trying to make sure that we are really thoughtful about building into, cultivating, curating, harnessing and training local talent to be able to be people that will serve in the communities that they come from.
- [08:50]
A
Thank you. And Matt, as you look at sort of rural healthcare today, it seems like such an uphill battle. Give us some positivity or what do you see? How can you make an impact?
- [09:02]
C
Yeah, I think that the time and place where we are right now, I'll go to the technology as an example. Maybe before I get there, I'll lean back into what Wanda was talking about in terms of we've got to have workforce, and so we've got to create the pipeline and we've got to engage people, you know, in new and different ways. Because so much of that care is getting people into those communities, having the economic development and support for those communities. I think there's a recognition of that need. And I think there are organizations like Advocate that are saying, we're going to step out and we're going to do this and we're going to find partners and all of these things to make that workforce available. At the same time, when you look at the opportunities that technological innovations bring, I mean, so many times what is really needed is the ability to connect the person with a clinical need or a clinical question with a person with the clinical knowledge. And it used to be that you had to travel from point A to point B to have that, create that connection. And because of all the things that are going on in the technological space, in the innovation space, and things that we're really proud of, the advocate around creating care models, we're now able to break down those barriers. Whether the barrier is around hours or it's around distance or whatever else it is, in order to make that connection and that engagement between the person who has the need and the person who has the information that can help the need, even if that is, you know, on the one end, completely doing a visit and meeting all the needs, or if it's getting 80 or 90% of the way there and some of that follow up. So I think it's really about engagement. I think the tools at our disposal to create engagement is a really great opportunity, a place where we feel like we've really been out in front and leading and we're going to continue to push the envelope and looking for partners and people who want to do that with us. So I think we take our mission and our experience in terms of the innovation and the care model delivery space with the technological advances, I think there's a lot to be excited about going forward.
- [10:53]
A
Thank you. And Dr. Anderson, how are you able to bridge the gap of working into the huge system and actually then getting into the weeds of some of the rural health communities? How do you try and manage hitting that balance in sort of how you work and how you try and work with your rural communities?
- [11:14]
C
Yeah, I think there's a lot of intentionality that goes into it in terms of what can the broader system bring, what are the resources? And so try to be really explicit about. These are the things that we believe should be available in every location across advocate health or to every patient, you know, no matter where they are, whether they're an underserved urban area, underserved rural area in a growth area and being clear. And so we've been doing a lot of work around what are the inventory of care models and technologies and capabilities that we have to make sure that we're setting the table really well. Right. We want to give our operators in our rural communities a menu of services and options and say, look, this is kind of what we believe. This is what we're providing in terms of expertise and support. And then they can look at that and say, okay, like that's the 80, 20 rule or somewhere in there. Like, this thing actually makes more sense for me and my community. So I'm actually going to tweak that and take that, you know, and do it slightly differently. But we all know what the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish is. And so for us, things about giving capabilities, tools, and really leveraging our platform and care models to then put in the hands of our rural operators who are there closely to say, tell us what you need, tell us how you think this fits. So rather than having everybody have to do it on their own, working together to sort of create that, you know, grouping of offerings but then they can use and you know, take that down to have that value added variation. So we're in the middle of really continuing to build that out. But I think that's how you bridge sort of the, all the benefits of the large system and then how do you get that local again variability and sort of the ability for people to really dive down into what they need in their local community.
- [12:57]
A
Thank you very, very much. Wanda, let me ask you this question. Labor and delivery in rural markets seems to be just under siege. Just not enough obstetricians, gynecologists to serve rural markets. And you can't have just one. You've got to make sure you've got a team. Any thoughts there? Because it seems like for rural markets, so many closures of labor and delivery units across the country. I have no stats on advocates. This is totally unrelated to advocate, but what can be done about this as well. Any thoughts there? Because it seems to be one of the real challenging issues for rural communities.
- [13:36]
B
Yeah, I mean it's a great question and it's an important discussion. It's definitely one of those areas where we believe fundamentally at advocate Health that you should be able to be born where you're your parents want you to be born and not have to have people traveling hundreds and hundreds of miles to go get care. It is a really important piece, I think getting back to what Dr. Anderson was saying earlier about really thinking through how we build out this workforce. Because one thing that we see is that when people who have the opportunity to train and to learn in rural communities are much more likely than others to, to stay and to ultimately stay. Now there are things down the line that you have to think about in terms of how you retain and support people in the community. But if you can train more people to see the beauty and being able to practice and deliver in those settings, then you can also hopefully keep them and attract them to stay in those communities. So we're actually exploring that very intentionally around can we also train the obstetrics and family medicine, obstetrics workforce that could be able to support these communities and have people stay there, practice and be able to deliver babies? And then also just, you know, thinking through some of the challenges people have with transportation. Are we able to tighten up and strengthen the infrastructure that allows, that enables people to move throughout these communities if they're already kind of experiencing those challenges? And then we're moving on and advocating for some other things that are more like policy level changes that will allow cross state licensure practice that will enable physicians and clinicians to be able to provide care for people in even just maybe a few miles away, but across the state line. That also can help accelerate the ability to get more people in the workforce that can provide those services.
- [15:32]
A
Thank you. I'm going to ask each of you one more question, and it really goes to leadership. Each of you have had remarkable leadership careers. Just incredible, quite frankly. And one of the things I'm struck by is Dr. Anderson went back and did a master's in healthcare administration. You did a master's in public health. The commitment to lifelong learning and continuing to improve. Dr. Anderson, I know you also served as the chair of the board, the University of Wisconsin Health Accountable Care Organization Board. You've had a remarkable career talk for a moment about lifelong learning and why it's been important to your career. And then, Wando, I'd love you to do the same.
- [16:11]
C
Yeah, I appreciate the question. I think that just part of that nature is, I think, being curious and somebody in our organization made a really positive statement. I thought about being sort of constructively dissatisfied. So I'm not going to own that as my own. But I think there's a piece of. You know, I got into leadership early in my clinical career because I saw that, I thought things could be better, and I saw that there could be an extended impact that way. And then sort of like when you're going through clinical training, you identify the things that you don't know or the things that you can get better at, and you want to go out and do that because you want to be more effective. And it's not about necessarily growing into a particular role, but I think it's about how do you make an impact. And you make an impact of being around smart people and by learning how they do things and see the world and, you know, acquire new skills and all of that. And so I think what it does is it just opened up a lot of doors, you know, but keeping that perspective and hopefully that humility of saying, look, I'm here to try to make things better, I can make a better version of myself by continuing to learn and observe. And, you know, I'm really blessed. I get to work with great leaders at Advocate Health like Wando, who you get to watch how they do things and sort of, you know, adapt your style and, you know, add to your knowledge base. So I think there's that, you know, formal academic learning, there's the informal stuff that we get to, I think, all benefit from each other in an organization like this. So it's just a really, really great environment to be in. And I've been really fortunate to work with a lot of great people. Whether it was back in Iowa, in Wisconsin, down here as part of the broader advocate system, it's just been a great ride. So appreciate you calling it out.
- [17:46]
A
And I guess the question for you in terms of temperament, the Southeast versus the Midwest, my sense is both very nice people, very nice places to be.
- [17:56]
B
But.
- [17:56]
A
But I take it that's an unfair comment because people are probably n every place. But have you found the difference between being in the Midwest and the Southeast?
- [18:05]
C
Yeah, you know, other than some terminology differences in our slang and everything else, I think they're actually really, really similar. My wife and I were talking about this that we find a lot here in Charlotte is very similar to where we were in Iowa, in Wisconsin, you know, high school in Illinois. So I think culturally, you know, there are obviously some differences, but no people are great and I think we've really adapted well. And I haven't lived other places. I'm sure they're all very nice there as well. No. Of people from those other spots in there. But yeah, I think there's a lot of great harmony and synergy culturally as we've made the move down this direction.
- [18:42]
A
And Matt, where are you in Illinois? Did you go to high school and when you were in Wisconsin, did you learn the term fib?
- [18:49]
C
Not so much on that one.
- [18:51]
A
On.
- [18:51]
C
On my end that's maybe not as part of my vernacular. I went to high school in Danville, Illinois. I was a Danville Viking.
- [18:57]
A
Oh, fantastic. I have a very close friend, Kelly Joe Rogers, whose father was a superintendent and in Danville, who is a Danville person. And I went to University of Illinois. So lots of Dan villain people. Wanda, lifelong learning. I know you went to the Harvard School of Public Health. You've had this magnificent career. Magnificent, constant improvement. Take a moment and tell us how important that is to career success and just to being fulfilled and self actualized as a leader.
- [19:27]
B
Yeah, I really appreciate the question. I love Matt's answer. And Scott, you have a connection to every town and community. It sounds like we know. So that's. That's pretty impressive. I always think there's something that someone shared with me. Again, I can't take credit for it. I think it was said by Gandhi which was like, live as if you're going to die tomorrow, but learn as if you're going to live forever. And I feel like the spirit of. I remember exactly how much I said it, but I think the spirit of feeling like constantly, like there is more to know and there's more to learn and there's always room to be better is great. Again, I don't want to present it as like, you know, perpetual dissatisfaction, but just kind of always feeling like there is a lot more to learn. And being around colleagues like Matt and like many others that do things differently, that lead differently, that each have a piece of leadership or style or an approach that I think, you know, you take them individually, put them as a collective, and you're better. I feel like that is just so important for me. And then just communities and people and patients and healthcare is just constantly evolving. So if you're stuck in something that you used to do or used to understand or used to see 20 years ago, you're not going to really be able to provide the best for the people that you're. That you're serving. So I do consider myself a lifelong learner. I never want to be in a situation where I feel like I've got it all, I've understood it all. If I ever am that, then that's a problem. So I really do appreciate it. I love being around people who are also like that. So I think all of us just end up making each other better.
- [21:01]
A
Well, it is fascinating to talk to the both of you. It is remarkable what Advocate is trying to do at scale. And it's so inspiring to talk to you. You, Londo, and you, Matt, both magnificent physician leaders, understand what you're doing and how you're trying to do it. It is really inspiring. Thank you for joining us today on the Beckers Healthcare podcast. And thank you to your team for allowing us to visit with you. We really appreciate it. Thank you.
- [21:29]
B
Appreciate it.
- [21:29]
C
Thank you.