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Becoming UnDone
121 | Part 10: Celebrating Coach Dick Tomey’s Legacy of Pioneering Athletic Trainers with Magie Lacambra
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- [00:04]
Maggie Lacambra
This is becoming undone.
- [00:13]
Toby Brooks
So it was 1999. I was a grad assistant athletic trainer in Tucson, Arizona. At the time I was working with the Wildcat gymnastics team for our athletic training room for all the athletes was housed deep within the bowels of McHale Memorial Center. Now all the athletes went there for their pre practice treatments, taping, rehab, everything else they might need before or after practices and games. And when you've got a common space like that for everybody, it becomes kind of like a hub of sorts. At the time, our facility had six certified athletic trainers full time and five graduate assistants. Now, if you're not familiar, a grad assistant is certified, has a degree, but they're working toward another degree so that they'll be qualified to serve as a full time in the future. When I first started, there were two gas who were coming back for their second year who shared an office cubicle on one end of the facility. Cindy Machaut with softball, and Lisa McDonald with track and field. And then there were the three guys. Aaron Barnett with football, Mitch Doyle with volleyball, and me with gymnastics. It was fine. But we decided that as GA's the next year, we wanted a shared space where we could all be together. We were all making around 12 grand a year, routinely clocking 50 to 60 hours per week. So we proposed a change. We would take one of the removable dividers out of the series of cubicles, slide all the full time staff together, and then create a big space for all the gas. We called it the Hugele. A lot of shenanigans went down in the huge. Mitch Doyle liked to sneak 15 pound cuff weights into my med kit before road trips. Once I'd be on the road wondering why my shoulder hurt and my freaking kit was so heavy, I'd discover the quote unquote gifts he left for me. You got me, Mitch. Or there was a time we decided to bring a variety of food and have kind of a makeshift hobo style Thanksgiving potluck just for the gas. But without a doubt, the worst was Napster. Now, we'd been explicitly told by our boss, the director of sports medicine, not to load the music sharing software on our tired old single beige desktop computer. But we were young and we were cool. We wanted songs in the huge. Surely it'd be fine. He probably wasn't even technologically savvy enough to know if we'd installed it. Till that same boss soon discovered that we disobeyed. Now I can't remember if everybody else did, but I know for sure I got a Stern talking to. Even though our medical records at the time were on pen and paper, he said we were exposing the university property to the risk of corruption. I mean, he wasn't wrong, but Napster wasn't Limewire. Right. It wasn't a guarantee that our computer would come down with some sort of terminal electronic STD that would result in us needing a new one. But you know, honestly, if it did, as GA's, we had, hands down, the crappiest computer in the whole place. So the thought of getting a new one really wasn't a threat at all. It wasn't the worst thing I could think of. But, Yeah, I was 24 years old, married, working my first job, and my boss chewed me good because of the risk posed by a virus. A computer virus. But still. At coach Dick Thomas memorial service in 2019, speaker after speaker shared stories not about football victories, but about love. Dino Babers, former player, an assistant under Tell me former guest on this show, captured it best when he said.
- [03:51]
Dino Babers
Before Dick told me, we'd go to family. I'm talking about my family now. We'd go to family gatherings. We didn't kiss, we didn't say I love you. After Dick told me, I can't think of a gathering. We don't do that. And his impact is over. Oh, you're just talking about your brothers and s. No, I'm talking about my brothers and sisters, my nieces and nephews. It's throughout the family. That's Dick. Dick is a virus, Nancy. He's a virus. He's the virus you can't get out of your computer. Now you guys got me on it. I'm. That's the best word for him in a good term, is like, whoa, whoa.
- [04:29]
Toby Brooks
Where'D this come from?
- [04:30]
Dino Babers
You brush up against Dick, Tomi. And I'm going to use this word because there's a lot of things going on in the United States. I'm going to use this word. He leaves a residue on you. He leaves a stain. And you're like, whoa, what did I brush up against? And he's with you forevermore after that.
- [04:53]
Toby Brooks
You know, that's kind of a funny way to describe someone so beloved. But it's fitting. Coach Tommy had a way of infecting people with his warmth, his belief in them, and his relentless love. He did phone calls with love you any minute. He made grown men hug and say it back. He changed how people led, how they coached, how they lived. That virus spread far beyond the field. It reached families, locker rooms, even the athletic training room. Today, we'll hear from someone who caught it early and never let it go. Sadly, we lost. Coach told me to cancer in 2019. But lately, I've found myself thinking about him more and more. As I've grown in my own leadership, I keep asking myself, how can I lead like he did? How can I love like he did? What was his secret? What made people follow him so fiercely, carry his lessons decades after they took off the pads or shut the office door for the last time? Because in a profession where wins and losses often scream the loudest, Dick, tell me. It was different. He built something far more lasting. Relationships. And those questions, they haven't let me go. So started asking, started listening, started chasing down the people who knew him best. Players, staff, family. To unpack what made him special, to trace his path, to learn. What made his leadership so timeless. From Indiana to Hawaii to Tucson to San Jose. Even in retirement, he never really stopped coaching, mentoring, loving people. This journey now in episode 10, has helped me rediscover a legend and maybe hopefully become a better leader myself. That's exactly what Coach dicktomey did. He built people. He also opened doors. Many don't know it, but Dick Tomi was one of the first coaches to open his locker room to women head athletic trainers. First to Sue Hillman and later, Maggie Lacombra. Today we'll continue our deep dive into the life lessons and legacy of coach Dick. Tell me with a conversation with Maggie where she shares what it was like to be a member on his staff during a time of changing opportunities for women in college. Bro sports. You're tuned in to becoming undone. And this, this is part 10 of the life lessons and legacy of Coach Dick. Tell me a Toby Brooks passion project. Becoming Unknown is a podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Join me, Toby Brooks, as I invite a new guest each week where we can examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. And if you've been following along for the past, oh, I don't know, I guess we're on nine episodes deep. We've been taking a deep dive on the life, the lessons and the legacy of late coach Dick Tomy. Joining me today is a mentor, a friend, now team sport manager for Gatorade and Gatorade Sports Marketing, Maggie Lambro. Maggie, thank you so much for joining me.
- [08:06]
Maggie Lacambra
It is a sincere pleasure and an honor to be here with you today and just feel like it's, it's a, it's a pretty, pretty nice thing to be able to talk about Coach Tommy. So thank you.
- [08:17]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, well, I, I will go ahead and plant this seed. I, I tapped you for it was part of my mba. I had you interview for a real brief kind of four parter with some other folks and you were gracious enough to do that. Now you're tapping in for this. I really want to hear your specific story. So I'm going to go ahead and plant that seed and say we're going to circle back and we're going to hear your story on becoming undone. But today the focus is on Dick. Tell me so tell me about how you first met coach at Arizona and maybe some of your background that led you to Tucson when you were at, as you famously said, that other institution.
- [08:55]
Maggie Lacambra
Yeah, yeah, it is, it is pretty interesting that I was, I was at Arizona State. I did go to grad school at ASU and then I was hired full time in the athletic department. So I was on the opposite side of the field of. Coach told me with that knowing anything about him for a little bit. Although I was not the football athletic trainer at asu but you know, worked games to, to assist. So when I came to the U of a in 94, Suha man had hired me to work women's basketball and went through the basketball season. I, you know, did not meet Coach Thome until there. And you know, think as you may recall, Coach told me he'd like to roam McHale center and he roamed around a lot and sometimes looking for things to eat or snacks or what have you, but he would roam through the training room and that's how I, I met him. First time was him roaming through the training room. And when I first came in in August I believe it was because it was right before training camp was starting. So that was the first time and it was just as a kind of, as a, as a passing by, hey, this is our new new staff member, know going to work women's basketball. And he was a champion of everybody in that building. So he was very, very warm at that time. Then my probably next or most official time meeting him was during spring of. It would have been a spring of 95 because I started in 94 there and sue called me in her office and said hey, it's spring football is about to start. She had some things going on, some projects and want to know if I could cover spring football for her while she stayed inside. So I thought that's, that's interesting but heck, I'll do it right, absolutely any opportunity. And, and she was a leader So I didn't question that. So then I got reintroduced to Coach Tomi and he knew who I was already and started working at spring football and I thought that that was it, that it was going to be spring football. And I go back and work women's basketball and at the time women's soccer actually too. I was supervising women's soccer because it was a club sport that was going to become an intercollegiate sport and that spring football coverage turned into a full time, full time gig afterwards when sue let us know that she was going to be going to K Comm in Phoenix back then. What is now still at still now is Crooksfield College of Osteopathic Medicine.
- [11:25]
Toby Brooks
For the uninitiated, I think you need some context here. Let's start with what it is According to the National Athletic Trainers association, athletic training is a healthcare profession that focuses on the prevention, assessment, diagnosis, treatment and rehab of injuries and medical conditions, especially those related to sports and physical activity. It's considered an allied health profession. It's recognized by the American Medical Association. To become a certified athletic trainer today in 2025 requires a master's degree. You have to pass a rigorous national certification exam. In most states there are also licensure requirements. Currently, AT is one of the fastest growing fields in all of healthcare, expected to grow at a rate of almost 20% over the next decade. Today there are close to 60,000 certified athletic trainers working in all kinds of practice settings, even from junior high and high school settings to college pros, military, industrial, and points in between. One source I found says approximately 48% of all ATS are women. But another noted that in 2021, 56% of NAT membership were women. Even more recent data suggests that women account for 60% of all NATA student memberships, so we're certainly seeing a trend in that direction. Today, women work in all types of practice settings, including as head athletic trainers in college football. However, in 1995, such was exceptionally rare. While the NATA was founded in 1950, it wasn't until 1966 that the first woman joined Dorothy dot Cohen. Between 66 and 72, there were only eight women recorded as members. It would be 22 years after the founding of the NATA before Kay Kobe became the first woman to pass the certification exam in 1972, and opportunities in major college sports didn't begin to come around for at least another decade or two. A doctoral Dissertation published in 2012 by Joanne Gurant outlined just how difficult it was in those early years for women to break into what was commonly known as a good old boys club. Administrators, coaches, even other athletic trainers commonly complained that women had no place in men's locker rooms as would be required for an athletic trainer. Never mind other female healthcare providers like nurses and even doctors at the time who somehow could manage to remain professional. I'm using the air quotes kind of thing here. While women at somehow couldn't, Coach Thomey was different. He played a key role in advancing the career of one of the first ever female head athletic trainers of a Division 1 football program when Sue Hillman took over. Sue took over in 82. Wildcat athletic director for women at the time. Time Dr. Mary Roby was key in the move and when Coach Tomi came along in 8687 Hillman eventually became, as best I can tell, the first female head at of a Division 1 football program. She'd later go on to be the first female at in the NFL when she took a spot as a seasonal intern with the Pittsburgh Steelers in 1997. Today she's still working in pro football with the UFL's Michigan Panthers, but in 1995 she she was opening the door for Maggie to be one of the first side note I also happened to work under one of the other first few in Don Hern, who was at utep. I tried to get sue on the podcast, but the timing didn't work out as she was deep in the UFL season when we started. But at any rate, handing the reins of a D1 football team over to any young professional for spring ball was a huge deal. The fact that Maggie was a woman might have been an issue for most coaches at the time, but not Coach Tell me they'd already met while he'd been foraging for snacks in the training room, and not long after they'd be working together day in and day out with Maggie in charge of all aspects of health care for coach's Wildcat teams until she would eventually leave the program in 1999. But not quite yet.
- [15:16]
Maggie Lacambra
So that's how it started.
- [15:18]
Toby Brooks
That's incredible. I mean the thought of going there and certainly nothing wrong with women's basketball, there's still not. But football, especially in that era, was the marquee assignment for an athletic trainer. And typically you had years of experience and a deep network and we'll kind of get into the fact that a woman working Division 1 football in 1994 was few and far between. Those are true groundbreaking pioneers in the area, and sue certainly deserves a ton of credit for it. And I've got her on my list to interview. But she's still doing it. She is with the ufo and I didn't get to her in time. She said I'm in season, maybe circle back to me. But yeah, knowing that you went there to cover women's basketball and then you had a leader who was a secure enough to allow you to fill in her stead, no worries about, you know, you coming in and stealing thunder. But, but also just the fact that a woman in that position at that time was allowed to do that, how did that really resonate with you? What were your initial thoughts and reactions to being in that space in that place at that time?
- [16:27]
Maggie Lacambra
My initial reaction was, are you really serious about this? I, because again, I'm, I'm a newbie, right? I'm, I'm, I'm the new staff member there. And, and I had such, and still have such respect for sue as, yes, a pioneer in what she was doing, not just in athletic training, but man, the her. I think sue has forgotten more anatomy than I've ever known in my life just because, you know, she's so good at that. And so the bar, like, how can I meet that bar that she has set? But she instilled confidence in me and that she's a leader. She's breaking ground in this area of, of a very male dominant setting. And also coach told me, I mean, I give them both huge props, right, because me working football there would not have happened without sue and Coach Tomi's blessing and support. So both of them equally very, I think, open minded into just putting the right person in the right place to do, to do a good job. And so that's, that's what I felt. And Sue's confidence to put me into that position and then Coach Tomi's confidence in having me join his team based off of Sue's recommendation was an unbelievable boost of confidence. But still, mind you, I was still terrified. I'm like, I, I better live up to this expectation. But yeah, it was, there weren't too many, there weren't too many back in the day doing that. And the fact that Coach Tomi, obviously, Sue set the groundwork and opened the doors and then Coach Tomi just kept those doors open. And when he introduced me to the team, he was, it was that is this, is, this is Maggie, our new athletic trainer. And it was not, you know, any different or any stipulations going with it. It was, you know, respect her like you respect everybody else on the staff, like she's a member of our staff. And, and I Think that was already set before I, you know, I stepped into that role and he just continued it. And it was, it was a. It was a much easier transition probably than. Than in other places because of him.
- [18:30]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, I've been so impressed. I had Mike Flores on as a guest earlier. Jesse Sapolu. I think Coach's background being a Midwest guy, going to UCLA first and then to the Islands, I mean, he worked with people from all different walks of life, all different cultures. And I think he was masterful in his ability, not just to work with people from different cultures, but to draw on those strengths. And this is not a conversation you and I have ever had.
- [19:00]
Maggie Lacambra
So first I have to say that with that kind of background with Coach, Tommy, I think Coach told me, was a lover of people, right. He didn't care race, sex, age, anything. It was just he loved people and loved interacting with people. And so he embraced cultures, he embraced language, embrace everything. And, and it's funny because he. One time in a staff meeting, and I can't remember. I can't remember the true thing of what it was, but there was somebody else in the, in the, in the staff meeting, so it required an introduction. And he introduced me as Maggie Garcia. And. And then like, it didn't, like he didn't think of anything. And then somebody like, hey, that's not, It's. Her last name is not Garcia. Right. So he obviously knew that I was of, Of a Hispanic descent. So Mexican mother, Spanish father. I was born in Mexico. I came to the US at the age of five. And. And he just, he embraced that, though. It was funny. And Maggie Garcia was. I think she worked in a finance department at, At Arizona. So there was. Maggie Garcia did this. And to this day, I guarantee you, if I call, if I call Nancy. Okay, Nancy Kincaida, that she would laugh and call me Maggie Garcia, because it made Coach, he was so embarrassed, but he laughed so much about it at that time. Kind of just, hey, it's a culture thing. It does. It doesn't matter. And I never took any offense to it. I thought it was hilarious. But. But yeah, so that's my background. Mexican mother, Spanish father, Mexican descent.
- [20:30]
Toby Brooks
Yeah. And so with, with that background, I mean, we talk about pioneers and groundbreaking positions and how sue being one of the first Division 1 football athletic trainers, and I don't know, I've never done the research into that depth, but I have to assume that you were a pioneer both on the ethnic side and on the gender side, where a Mexican American woman in that role was, was highly Unusual. I mean, I, in the span of my career, I've seen the, the percentage of certified athletics trainers flip to being predominantly female. And so these are, these are stories. I don't think students today would, would even be able to recognize the workplaces that many of our predecessors had to endure and whether that's sexism, whether that's racism, whatever. And it all comes from the pioneering work of people like yourself, people like Sue. But I also recognize that there's also a coach who is not just willing for that to happen, but wanted that to happen. He wanted a diverse culture. I think of the way he, he worked with and loved our poly players. Like, oh yeah, it was so culturally rich and I didn't expect it going to Tucson. I expected the Hispanic influence in Tucson. But the poly influence with the football program in particular was remarkable. And especially like, seemed like our O line. There were just, I remember ordering knee braces that had like special prints that were reflective of culture. I mean that's, that's what, that's what was cultivated there. What were your initial impressions of Coach Tomi when you did step into that role as a full time staff meter, as a leader, as a person?
- [22:18]
Maggie Lacambra
It was welcoming. He was welcoming from the minute, the minute it happened, right? It was, hey, you're a member of our staff. These are our staff meeting times. You know, you're gonna come to the staff meetings. He set the expectations of what I was going to do at the staff meetings, what I was going to do in terms of practice, travel and that sort of thing that there he lined out what, what decisions I could make as far as like, who travel, staff, that sort of thing. But otherwise it's, hey, this is our staff, you're part of our staff and you're going to be a welcome member of it and an equal member of it. There was, there was nothing ever any way that he made it feeling different again. Like I said, he was a, he was a people lover and he embraced people for how they were. He didn't want to change anybody. Right. And you know, when you're working with the team, when you're working with athletics, there are people, very different personalities on one team. And how do you make all that work? And you think of the people that, that we all have to work with as athletic trainers and how you approach maybe an injury or a rehab is that not everybody's the same and you can't approach everybody the same. And coach Tomi knew that and that's how he approached things. We all have seen and have Heard the man hugs that he gave and the emotion and the crying and the. It was just. It was special. It was. I mean, it was very, very special. Whether it was, you know, you're at camp Coach, he's working 100 hours a day to, you know, back during the season, and it's his welcoming of just people. I don't think he saw me any different than he saw anybody else on his staff, is that, hey, you're a member of the staff, you have a responsibility, and we're all going to treat you. We're going to treat you equal that way. And quite frankly, the players did the same. The players were a reflection of him. There was no. There was one small incident way at the beginning, one player thought he was going to make a funny joke, and his teammates heard it and they shut it down immediately and it never happened again. And that was just. Again the. I think the reflection of him and how he set the standard for how people should be treated, that was. So I'm tremendously grateful because to your point of who was doing it at that time. Yeah, Sue Hillman rarely opened the doors, and she was probably the first of two people to do it in the. In the country. And there were still very, very few when. When I stepped into that role. But I, quite frankly, I tried not to think of the enormity of it at that time because that was. That was terrifying. Okay. If I thought about it, quite frankly, then that was terrifying. So for me, it was just, hey, I'm an athletic trainer. I have a job, I have a role. This is my responsibility, and I'm gonna do it. And some people have a little bit of a different approach. I probably was a little. Let's just call it a little bit more on the stricter side than I probably would have liked to have been. And I just felt like I. I needed to have certain things buttoned up in order for things to be able to be. For me to be able to be successful and not lose sight of what I needed to do.
- [25:22]
Toby Brooks
But absolutely. And I don't think it was fair, but I certainly saw for you, it wasn't fair that you had to do it better than a guy would have had to do it. You had to be cleaner in that era. Very little margin for error, because people, whether at Arizona, probably not, but elsewhere, would. Would gladly point to a failure of a female in that position and say, this is why we shouldn't have women in the locker room. And so there was a scrutiny with that, and there was a. No doubt that Was a heavy load to bear, but I always appreciate it and I made light of it in my last episode about how tough and, and no nonsense you were, but you had to be.
- [26:02]
Maggie Lacambra
Yeah. You know, at the time I felt like I had to be and maybe I did. I mean, looking back, I, I wish, there's times when I wish I, I would have been less, less strict, less what have, you know, and have had enjoyed the process more. But I was afraid of that. I was, I was afraid of the judgment that was happening. And I don't think people did this on purpose by any means. But I remember multiple times you travel, you go, you go to a team and the medical staffs meet pregame, in the middle of the field, they're on the sideline or what have you, introduce each other and what have you. Nobody. They're like, who's she? Right? Until literally one of our docs had to say, hey, this is our athletic trainer. And then they still, they would do a double taken because I mean, I have to think back of who we played that would have had another female across the field as well, you know, maybe like dawn at utep. I mean, so other than that, it was a very, there's, there was a very male oriented setting. And again, I don't, I don't blame anybody. That was just the way it was. And so to have a female there, it was very unusual. And even going into hotels, checking into hotels on the road and people thought I was like the nurse. Okay. Or I was like the travel coordinator or something. They never thought I was the position that I was in. And it was. But you just, I, I laughed a lot about those things because like, yeah, who, who was doing it? And so the fact that I was able to do it, it was a privilege to me. I'm like, you know what? This is an amazing honor and a privilege and I best not mess it up.
- [27:41]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, well, you did a tremendous job. I so appreciate the, just the excellence in your work and the, just the model you were for me as a professional female or not. Just your work was exemplary. I saw student athletes would stream in and they, they would go straight to you. They knew where to go to get help and, and I think at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. Again, we're talking about Maggie Lecom rev, a former head football athletic trainer at the University of Arizona. We're going to switch gears a little bit. Coach Tommy was known for being a tough coach. He was no nonsense. I can remember one particular game where we underperformed that next practice, a lot of rolling. He was not going to let his players get away with less than he thought was their best. And sometimes that can intersect with what we're trying to do as a medical staff. How do you see your role as a health care provider intersecting or perhaps colliding with his approach to that tough, that grit, that player development?
- [28:41]
Maggie Lacambra
It's an interesting balance, right, Because I think no matter, no matter what, what sport you're working or who you're doing it with, that there, there has to be that understanding of what everybody's role is. And his role was to motivate, to educate, to coach, to discipline, to do all those things. And my role was to keep the team healthy and abide by the healthy standards. And so the one thing that. One of the many, I think, agreements that we had is that he's going to coach and I'm going to do my job and we're going to communicate. And so if I ever felt that something was in danger or if it was out of maybe alignment with the. With the best interests of the student athlete from a safety perspective, I would share that with him. Now, when somebody's rolling and they're puking because they're rolling, that's. That's a matter of, hey, that, that's. That's consequences, right? Was it going to put somebody in jeopardy at that time? You know, I didn't think so, but there, There were consequences. Now, obviously, you know, in Tucson, there are monsoons. There are beautiful monsoons that bring a lot of lightning. And so like that. It's a player safety. It was my job to, with very different tools that they're available now is try to see where those storms are and let coach know when it was time to vacate the field. Because it was. No matter what was happening, it was a safety issue. And so he never questioned that. He never questioned whether an athlete could practice or not practice because of injury or rehab or what have you. He was interested in, hey, what's the best thing for the athlete? And we'll do what we can around it and just make sure that they're here, that we want them here, at least taking mental reps and doing what they can out here, and we'll go from there. And so I. It was a matter of, I think, meeting in the middle. He's doing what he needs to do, I'm doing what I need to do with the athlete, and. And we're moving in the same direction.
- [30:33]
Toby Brooks
Yeah. So it was a different era. And Certainly in your travels today, I mean, you're still actively involved. You communicate regularly, if not daily with Power 4D1 programs. You, you know what it's all about. But in that era, you could build a team over the course of years. It wasn't a portal dominated era. This was a coach who famously would bring in walk on guys. We've talked to Brad Brennan on this show before Bear Baker. I mean, there is a long history, Dave Fip for that matter of, of guys that didn't have a chance really anywhere else. Not just coming and being a part of the team, but being critical parts of the team. And so he was known for building that culture. From your point of view, what do you think made it so unique under coach Tomi?
- [31:23]
Maggie Lacambra
He cared. He cared because again, I think about, I mean, there are times in staff meetings that it would come up that, you know, certain player, you know, didn't show up for class or they didn't do certain thing, or they didn't go to their weight workout or they missed their, you know, their, their rehab appointment, whatever it was. And coach told me wouldn't get mad about that. He would not. He would look at the position coach of that player and say, hey, coach, go find out what's going on.
- [31:56]
Toby Brooks
This sentiment right here reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from poet Walt Whitman, made famous by all time favorite show or series, Ted Lasso. It's a concept I've been fighting hard with even in the past few days. I grew up in an environment I could only describe as toxically negative. Anything that didn't go our way led to anger. World class grudge holding. I learned from an early age that if somebody didn't do what they should or what they said they would, then they had offended you. But here we hear Maggie describe one of what I think is Coach Tomi's most powerful personality traits. He was curious, not judgmental. And for a leader, there isn't much that will inspire your people more than a leader who is curious and not judgmental. Let's hear Ted explain it.
- [32:52]
Ted Lasso
You know, Rert, guys have underestimated me my entire life. And for years I never understood what used to really bother me. But then one day I was driving my little boy to school and I saw this quote by Walt Whitman. It was painted on the wall there. It said, be curious, not judgmental. I like that. So I get back in my car and I'm driving to work, and all of a sudden it hits me. All them fellas that used to belittle me Not a single one of them.
- [33:23]
Toby Brooks
Them were curious.
- [33:25]
Ted Lasso
You know, they thought they had everything all figured out, and so they judged everything and they judged everyone. And I realized that they're underestimating me. Who I was had nothing to do.
- [33:37]
Toby Brooks
With it.
- [33:40]
Ted Lasso
Because if they were curious, they would ask questions. You know, questions like, have you played a lot of darts?
- [33:47]
Toby Brooks
10.
- [33:53]
Ted Lasso
Which I would have answered, yes, sir. Every Sunday afternoon at a sports bar with my father from age 10 till I was 16 when he passed away.
- [34:07]
Toby Brooks
Barbecue sauce. It would be easy to come down like a ton of bricks on a player who wasn't doing what he needed to do to judge them without even caring about their truth. Coach was not judgmental. He was curious. And he wanted his staff to be curious, too. It's an idea that flies in the face of what I'd been taught. Judge first, be curious later. It's a defense mechanism against allowing people to use you or harm you. It's also kind of like scar tissue that keeps you from ever really being vulnerable enough to really, fully, truly love and serve another person. So to Walt Whitman, to Ted Lasso, and to Dick Tomey, my commitment, my recommitment is to do my best to change my innate reflexive tendency to judge into purposeful curiosity, just like Maggie was able to do.
- [35:09]
Maggie Lacambra
Find out why. Why this is happening. Okay, we need him to. We need him in the classroom, we need him at practice, we need him in the training room, we need him in the weight room. Find out what's going on. Right. And that was. That's a different approach. Right. It wasn't. He wasn't going to blame first without knowing what it was. He was going to care. He was going to care first and then. And then take action. And it was. I don't know if that approach. How that approach would be now and to your point, with all those. Those young men that came there without scholarship as Wakons or, you know, blue chip players, what have you, and because he cared so much, they stuck around. They developed over time. They earned a scholarship later on. And yet today's environment. Wow. I. I've often thought, literally multiple times, how would Coach Tomi do in today's environment of the portal and nil? And so forth? It would, man. It would. It would be. It would be very challenging. I'd love to think that he would. He would have created his own mold and his own way of doing things because he would care so much for the athlete that that would supersede anything else that's going on. But you're Right. That putting the time in to develop a player and like literally sit down on the floor and talk to his parents and tell them how he's going to take care of them or how he's going to do various things. I mean I'd player. I had players parents talk to me on the field at practice about hey, coach told me, said xyz. I was really worried about them. You know, I, my son called me talking about whatever it was and I called Coach Tomi's office and talked to him directly. So he just eased all these things and he just, he took the time to express care for them as, as young men who then became good football players. Right. And team members.
- [37:01]
Toby Brooks
Absolutely. I think one of the saddest aspects of this story for me is the recognition that we are in an era where this kind of coaching becomes harder and harder to do. How can you be successful and win 9 or 10 games or lose your job by having the patience to develop a young man that shows up on your campus, a scrawny 175 pound nothing and needs four or five years of development. There's just no time for that anymore. And I really think that as much as I would love to have this optimism that his coaching legacy can go on exactly the way it did at Arizona, I just don't think the system allows that kind of love and care for a student athlete anymore.
- [37:48]
Maggie Lacambra
Yes, no, it is, it's definitely different setting. I mean there's a very prominent, well respected head, strength and conditioning coach in a Power 5 school, Power 4 school. And a few months ago we were talking and he just said, Maggie said this is different. This kid, we've developed him for the last three years now. He just left. He just left and he's going to. This other school is going to reap the rewards of all the work that was done here to develop them and now he's going to go play for them and he understands it. Right. He doesn't like it. And that's why I think Coach Show Me would do the same thing. It's like it is, it's. You put in the work and you, you need to hopefully see the rewards of the work that you're putting in. And it is, it's a very different environment now.
- [38:30]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, well, I showed up on campus as Arizona football was growing and yeah, it was a good time and I was super jealous of Aaron for getting to be that guy. But it was just good to be there during that 98 season, come off a bowl win and then head into that 98 season culminating with that Holiday bowl. And I was looking at that picture just the other day, and it crossed my mind, you've got Chris McAllister hoisting the trophy. All world everything, all NFL, like an exception in terms of how Coach Tomi was kind of known for landing these highly regarded prospects. So Chris McAllister, then you've got Kelvin Ifon, who showed up on campus as a basketball player, and then you got Barrett, who was a walk on. And that pinnacle moment for Arizona football is so emblematic. And I'm getting choked up just thinking about how those three guys represent kind of just how vast Coach Tony's love and care for student athletes were. Those were three guys he refused to give up on, and it led to the most successful season ever, and it still hasn't been surpassed. So talk me through that 98 season and what it was, what it was like for you to be in the inner circle.
- [39:51]
Maggie Lacambra
Yeah, it was a special time. It was a special time. Toby, just as you're choking up about it, man, it's. It brings back so many memories for me. And as difficult of those, you know, those times were, the memories are amazing. And those three young men that you mentioned, three very different walks of life, right? Three very different personalities, yet they were brothers on that team because Coach Tomi set that standard, because he embraced them that way, because he created that culture that, hey, you guys, we're going to be in this together, right? We're going to be in this together. And it doesn't matter where you come from, what your background is, and the resources for the athletes, I think, are something to be commended as well, right? So you can't do it without having the help in the classroom or. Heck, man, I think of some of these young guys and what they did back then and didn't have, like, didn't have financial support from home, right? They're living on that Lucheck and they're. They're trying to make it work. And now the difference that there is now with that. But those people, staff, players, coaches, everybody involved with it, I mean, it was a family. It was a family. And the press, the. The goal of coach told me was it was like, you know, it's like, burn the boats. Burn the boats. This is. We're going to do this one at a time, one at a time, one at a time. And he just said that. He says, you got to believe. Believe, right? That's. That's another great word that that coach told me used a lot, but it was true. It's like if. If he believes, then the players are going to believe. If he acted like it was going to be possible, and the players are going to believe it was possible. You had to set that from somewhere. And this taking that one game at a time and feeling like, hey, it's us against them. It's us against them. And even though. Even though those were, yes, very successful years for Arizona football, it was still a very basketball focused department. Right. I mean, Lud Olson was doing amazing things for the men's basketball program. And it's. It was still like a special thing that, hey, we're going to stick together. And I think also the environment of McHale center back then, it was all athletes under one roof, Right. Everybody intermingled, everybody knew each other, everybody supported each other. And so that energy of success from week to week, no matter what the sport was, it was. It was just contagious. And being inside that the locker room and hearing the, The. The speeches and hearing the, The. The players of just what they thought from week to week, pretty priceless.
- [42:34]
Toby Brooks
Yeah.
- [42:35]
Maggie Lacambra
Yeah.
- [42:36]
Toby Brooks
I had Kara Fry and Mike Meyer both on earlier, and they refer to it as Mikhail High. And I never heard it talk about that. There were little cliques and, you know, athletes from different teams that would hang out. And it was really a cool vibe, just a. A different kind of dynamic. And I think that came from. From the top, where we as a staff got together, everybody kind of pulling for one another, and. And it was. I didn't realize how different that was until I went somewhere else and realized what. It's not this way everywhere. You know, this was. That was really different. And, and that was not just different. It was really, really good. And that's what I feel like. Time has allowed me to kind of view this experience through. Well, 98 was an inverse of 99. Go into the season in 98, unranked, end up fourth in the country. 99, we go in ranked fourth in the country, end unranked. And famously, my missed bowl opportunities. Talk me through what 99 was like, because that ended up being your last season as a clinician working with college football. What was that season like? And what, if any, role did Coach Tomey play in counseling you as you looked at some other opportunities?
- [43:50]
Maggie Lacambra
That was a rough year in more ways than one, right? Yeah. So is that when we started at Penn State and kickoff return for 98 yards in LaVar Arrington and like, oh, my gosh, what are we doing? Yeah, so, yeah, that was. That was almost like the looking back it was almost like a preface of what the year was going to be like. And without knowing it, right? Without knowing it and to nobody's, nobody's fault, nothing. It just things did not work out or pan out the way I think any of us had wanted or had planned for it to be. So it was difficult on the field. There were some, there were some challenges going on, staff wise, within our department as well. Let's just say there were some challenges there. And that's probably where I feel like if I have regrets, that's, those are the regrets that I have, is how I handled that year, um, for the team and because the team, the team was still working. The team was still doing what they needed to do, right? They didn't need, they didn't need to hear or didn't need to see or experience what was happening to my side of, of, of things at work. And I should have done better. And that, that's, that's a regret that I, if I could do that part over again, I would do that part over again because it was, it was challenging, but at the same time that it was challenging for me professionally from a non football side. The football side of it was still very supportive. The athletes were very supportive. The staff was very supportive. Coach Tomi was very supportive. Hey, he pulled me in his office one day. He's like, what's going on? What can I do for you? Okay, what can I do for you? And wow. Say wow. You know, it's, it's not often that you get that from a, from a head football coach that's, that's concerned about, you know, an athletic trainer. I think there, there, there are people out there nowadays that do have that very tight relationship with the coaches they work with. And that is something that I will forever be grateful for for Coach Tomi and that support that he had of what can I do for you? Still, that last year, painful but rewarding as well. But otherwise, Coach Tomi and the team were amazing. And you guys, that's the other one. I owe you guys all an apology as, as GA's and, and students and staff of not being able to not be more of a support, more of a, of a, of a mentor to you guys. I, I, I was in a, I was in a little bit of a tunnel there. I would say to, to keep words clean there is that, you know, let's just say I was in a funk. I was in a deep funk and I didn't handle it well. And that's the other part of my regret. Is not having been a better mentor for you guys and teach you more of what it was. It was, it was kind of, everybody was. I felt like I was on survival mode, and I almost kind of made you guys be on survival mode as well as a consequence, and that was not fair. So, so I apologize for that.
- [46:52]
Toby Brooks
Not necessary. Appreciate it, but not necessary. I can say this from my perspective, not knowing the details, but seeing. And, and I, I kind of saw this again in 2000 from a distance. I mean, I wasn't working with you day in and day out, but working adjacent to you day in and day out. Same thing was happening in 2000. I wasn't working day in and day out with that coaching staff as a ga, but I saw it and I saw kind of the wear and tear as that season dragged on, like what it was doing, kind of the countenance of people. And this was an era where, I mean, we had Jeff Jansen as our sports performance guy, but there was no mental health care, certainly for staff, very little for student athletes. And so you're just doing your best to survive. And I want to tell you unequivocally, like, I was inspired by seeing you do the job you did with the resources you had, limited as they were. I couldn't have asked for a better mentor in that circumstance. It was, it was powerful to see you continue to do the job in the face of, of what you were facing, which I didn't have all the details on and didn't need them, frankly.
- [48:06]
Maggie Lacambra
Well, I truly thank you, thank you for those very kind words because, yeah, I've, I've, I wish I'd have done better. I wish I'd have done better. And I truly appreciate the, the maturity that you all did, especially you as GA's. I mean, honestly, you guys were. And my, you know, fellow staff that, that, that were working there at the time as well. I leaned on them a lot. I leaned on them a lot. Ed and Greg and, and mb. I mean, that they were. I cried on their shoulders a bit. Right. I wish I'd have done better then, and I hope I can do better now.
- [48:36]
Toby Brooks
So I, I, I certainly appreciate it. So coach, tell me wasn't far behind. One more season of 5 and 6 football, and depending on what you read, he was either asked to leave or whatever. And I'm not really going to get into those details here, but is there a particular game or moment that stands out to you as being kind of emblematic of who Coach Tomi was as a person?
- [49:01]
Maggie Lacambra
Wow, that's a tough one because he was so consistent, right? He was so steady. He was, you know, I loved his laugh. I just absolutely loved his laugh and him telling stories or, you know, the, the gatherings that he had at his house and, and I remember the, the pre game speeches against asu. That was, that was, that was really interesting because having been on the other side of that, that was like, that, that was just so interesting. But Ham just, it was the, the approach was the same always. But like I think back in our game at Washington and what has become the leap at the lake or something to that, to that effect, right? With OJ Leaping into the end zone and quite frankly, I saw that from street level down because I don't know if you recall, we'd had a player that had a C spine injury. I ended up leaving the game with them and Dr. Wong and I walked back, which I thought was crazy because we were done at the hospital and the player was, we knew he was okay at that point. And I said, okay, Doc, how are we going to get back now to the stadium? And he said, what do you mean we're going to walk? It's right across the street. So at that I had no idea because of the, you know, the intensity of keeping this athlete stable and going. So as we're coming around, because you dubbed the way the stadium was, like, literally you're coming into the stadium from the street, you can see it and like, we're coming, we're coming. If we got to get down, we got to get down there, rush down there, literally got on the field as O.J. leaped into the, into the end zone. And just the celebration of that and what, you know, the message from coach told me of in the locker room afterwards, like, yes, we're celebrating. This is an amazing one, but we have a brother in the hospital right now. We have a brother in the hospital and we got to think of him and prayed. Okay? I love the fact that he was open to prayer and that it was, this was embraced. We're going to embrace this win, but we're going to also pray for our brother that he's okay and we know that he's going to be okay, but we're going to keep him in mind. No, so it was just that one victory at asu. And I think there's probably a, I think there's a famous picture of Brad Brennan sitting on the goal post is like, he loved that. It's like, you guys go celebrate, okay? Go do, go celebrate it. This is, this is your moment. You Know, we earned this. And so. But there were also lessons in the losses, right? There were also lessons in the, in the losses. I mean, he could, he could call out like, specific plays, what the yardage was, what the play was, and who ran route and who missed what block. And like, he would, you know, and he's. And he would do that after the game and just say, hey, you know, player X, you got to do this in that situation. So his detail and his memory for all that. But again, it wasn't. They were all teaching. I always felt like he was teaching. Like he wasn't. He wasn't scolding or yelling like he was teaching. Yeah, no. And. And hopefully the players thought that way. Maybe As a young 18, 19 year old, you don't necessarily see it that way, but I would say that now all these players that have had a chance to think back, that it's like, man, those were. Those were teaching moments, you know, so that's great.
- [52:31]
Toby Brooks
I know. Just thinking about it in terms of leadership, if I don't pour into people and I call them out for their bad behavior, I'm just. I'm a tyrant. I'm a terrible boss. But his approach was pour into the relationships first, and then you can have that level of accountability because people don't assume that you're attacking their character. They know you care about them. And that's a lesson for leadership that I've certainly taken from afar. I will never forget. We're in the locker room celebrating that victory and Coach Ioannelo is trying to get. I believe he was the receivers coach trying to wrangle his guys up. And he said, somebody go get Brad Britain off that goal post. Whiteouts over here.
- [53:14]
Maggie Lacambra
Yeah, yeah, that's. I can hear. I can hear Coach I saying that right now, for sure.
- [53:22]
Toby Brooks
Yeah. So I think it's. I mean, it's. It's been a long time, obviously, but as you've grown in your career and moved on to other things with Gatorade, you continue to be involved in athletics, what do you feel like are the lasting bits of Coach Tomy's legacy that have served you as you've continued to grow as a professional?
- [53:45]
Maggie Lacambra
Wow. I think I always think back of how he just handled things with integrity. Right. And again of trying not to get too high or too low, of which I have an issue with. I. I get, I get. I get to. I wear my emotions on my, on my sleeve, and everybody knows what it is. And I think as I've grown in my current position now is I've tried to learn to manage things more and I think coach knew that and he would share this, is that know what you can control and do that, take care of that. When you can't control, don't worry about it. Right? Because you, you can't control it. But if you do the things that you're supposed to do, it's almost like plan your work and work your plan is that if you take care of those things, you're going to be in a good position. Now, sometimes the guy on the other side of the line, there's out of the ball, he's going to be better than you. Okay? It just, he just is. You don't have to tell him that. You don't have to show him that you can outwork them. You can outsmart him. You cannot do whatever it was. And so I think that was part of also his development of players, is that, yeah, you guys, there's a lot of blue chip players here. I mean, like Teddy Bruski, I'm like, we're crying out loud. You think of these guys that just were. They were considered marginal players everywhere else in the country and they did such amazing things there. Everyone that you've mentioned so far and amazing, amazing individuals. And so what I've. One of the biggest things that I take away from Coach Tomi is just how he treated people. It's like, let people be the way they're going to be. Don't change people. That's the beauty of life and the beauty of individuals, right. Is treat people how you would want to be treated. You're respectful and just let everybody be and love each other.
- [55:33]
Toby Brooks
Yeah. And I'm curious. I mean, he had to have gone to Hawaii with many of these philosophies and talked to Coach Vermeil and talked to Coach Flores, but I feel like Hawaii was the perfect place for him to cultivate this ohana. This, this family. First we are is this together. And I certainly saw evidence of that at U of A, and from the sounds of it, at San Jose later in his career when he took a San Jose state that's notoriously one of the lowest funded programs in the nation, to a bowl game that doesn't just happen. They didn't buy that. They built that.
- [56:10]
Maggie Lacambra
Yeah. Again, once, one step at a time. And I've just, I mean, even, like I see the, the variance of the haves and the have nots even now in the job that I have, with the differences of budgets of one school versus another school and what they do and Coach Tony was never concerned about that. You know, it was just, hey, we're blue collar people and we're going to work hard. We're going to outwork our opponent, we're going to outwork anybody that's across that line from us and that's how we're going to do it. And if we believe in each other and we support each other, there's a lot that can be accomplished. There's a lot that can be accomplished. And I think, you know, he loved having his family around. Okay. He loves obviously, Rich being right there and coming around to practice. Nancy used to come to practice a lot, you know, and every once in a while we'd see Lee as well. So it was just. He would have events at his house, you know, across the street there from. From Mikhail and. Or from. Yeah, from, from Akhale. And he just loved having people around and embracing people. So ohana is a perfect, perfect word for him is that that's what he believed going into it. And that's, you know, if it's a matter of this is how he wanted to be treated. Okay. He was going to treat others how he wanted to be treated. And that embracing of the family environment, he extended that out. He was very proud of his family. Obviously. I heard, I heard Rich talk and, you know, I think coach told me was tough on him, but he also loved him and he wasn't afraid to be open about his love for another individual. And that was, that's a special, that's a special quality about a human and about a man especially. And he wasn't afraid to show that. And I think that's part of. It's like working out. We don't need fancy stuff, we don't need this. But you know what, Give us a ball, give us a feel, give us some cleats and helmets, we're going to take care of things. And he always, I think he always just carried that out.
- [58:04]
Toby Brooks
Yeah. I think Rich even pointed to it. He relished the role of the underdog and I think he preferred the way it went down in 98 unranked to best season school history as opposed to heavy expectations and having to carry that weight that really was not like that.
- [58:19]
Maggie Lacambra
High ranking that year. Yeah. Yep.
- [58:22]
Toby Brooks
Any particularly funny stories about coach Tomi that, that come to mind when, when I ask.
- [58:28]
Maggie Lacambra
Oh, gosh, there's so many. There's so many. And it's again, I think of if you just see him, it was, it was that, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't worried about a fancy suit or, you know, fancy apparel. Okay. Like, you know, Coach Tomi often wore dress shoes without socks and shorts. You know, it was like he. He set his own tone. There may have been a time or two when you're standing at an event with a plate of food and Coach Tomi comes over and just grabs a piece of food off your plate. Whatever. It was. Right. And. And that was okay because that's. That's who he was. That's who he was. It wasn't. It was just. He was that comfortable. It's like, hey, we're all family here. Why that. Let me take that celery off your plate. Right? So. But it was just. It was just that. And he just loves seeing the guys have fun. And even in the most intense times, like, I remember standing on the fields at Camp Cochise. This is training camp, right? Preseason training camp. Supposed to be pretty intense. You're out there in the. Seemed like the middle of nowhere, and the monsoons start rolling in, and he. He'd walk over, he's like, maggie, look at that beautiful sky. Look how beautiful those clouds are that are coming in right now. The first time he ever said that just really kind of caught me off guard. I'm like, oh, my gosh. That. We're like, this is intense time. And he's really enjoying the beauty of the environment that we're in, surrounded by these clouds coming in. But he. He could do that, right? And then he could come right in and tell a player about what just happened with the play that. That was just run or a technique and a. And a drill that they were doing. He. He could just. He could switch that way. He could. His mind was. He was. He was pretty intense in. In that regard of just being able to switch around like that. So some great times, some really, really, really good, good times. And, man, I will be thankful. I'll be thankful to coach Tomi for forever. And I'm. I'm just grateful that I had a chance to. To be on his staff and. And work alongside him.
- [60:26]
Toby Brooks
Yeah. I had a chance to visit U of A. And I don't know if you've seen it. I'm sure you have, but the coach. Tommy. Practice fields. There's a plaque.
- [60:33]
Maggie Lacambra
Yeah.
- [60:34]
Toby Brooks
And, you know, it's. It's surreal to me. I mean, first of all, the baseball field is gone, so that was a bit of a jolt. But the fact that this coach, who had the greatest season in school history and two years removed is getting pressured out, like, that's a Complicated relationship. And I love the fact that U of A has. Has honored him. I love what Coach Brennan has done and in bringing a lot of familiar faces back. But it makes me wonder, you know, what. What, in your opinion, do you think Coach Tomy would want people to remember most about him and his teams? What would he say, his legacy?
- [61:12]
Maggie Lacambra
Is that such a tricky question? Because I think the last thing he was worried about would be his legacy. Yet if he had to, I would just say, again, just family and how he treated people that he cared, that he was a caring human being. And it wasn't that. I mean, obviously, I think most people know that he loved baseball. I mean, he was a baseball player, right? And that's what he. That's what he did in. In his off time, was play baseball. But he was an amazing football coach, and he knew how to build a staff, and he knew how to get the most out of his staff. He knew how to get the most out of the players, but he cared. He cared a lot. And. And he showed that every day. And I think just knowing the type of individual that he was, that, again, didn't care about a legacy, but if he had to put a word on it, it was that. That he cared.
- [61:59]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah, absolutely. Well, last one here. We're gonna. We're gonna play a little bit of make believe. I want you to look into the camera. We're on the zoom call here. Pretend I'm him. You get one more chance to say whatever's on your heart. What would you say?
- [62:15]
Maggie Lacambra
Oh, my gosh, Coach. Show me that. Thanks you. I thank you for allowing me and to be a part of your team, for supporting me, for embracing. For building the culture that you built and embracing everybody that was a part of it and just allowing us all to be individuals and allowing us each to basically be in charge of our own success. That you laid that groundwork, and I love you for it. I miss you.
- [62:47]
Toby Brooks
Yeah. Well, so heartfelt. I sincerely appreciate you joining me today, Mags. It's been tremendous.
- [62:54]
Maggie Lacambra
I am Maggie lacambra, and I am undone.
- [62:59]
Toby Brooks
What a gift it's been to sit with Maggie today, to hear her heart, to revisit a remarkable chapter in Arizona football history and honor a man who led not just with his strategy, but with his soul. In a profession, in an era where toughness was too often equated with silence or stoicism, Coach Tomi modeled a different kind of strength, one rooted in care, culture, and in connection. And Maggie, she's carried that same legacy forward, often with double the scrutiny and half the credit, yet always with an uncompromising commitment to doing the job and doing it right. As I reflect on our conversation, I'm struck by the shared thread between them deep abiding belief in people and their worth and their potential in their story. Coach Tomi believed in Maggie. She in return became the kind of leader who could inspire belief in others. It's fitting that we close this chapter of the series with someone who not only worked beside Coach Tom me, but who lived out the very values he championed. Maggie Lambra is more than a pioneer. She's a reminder that Being Undone isn't always just about falling apart. It's about showing up, holding the line and becoming something more. Peace by Hard Worn Piece Next Time I'll be Coming Undone. You know we are getting close to wrapping this one up. Reached out to several folks who I think would make for great interviews about Coach. Hopefully I'll be able to lock them down in the next few days. In particular Wendell Neal, who was equipment manager for Coach Coach Tommy for several years. And just today I had a chance to sit down with head Coach of the San Jose State Spartans. Ken Yamatololo. Also reached out to others and we'll bring this train home with a follow up conversation with Coach's son Rich. This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Hey, if you've made it this far, do me a favor. Share this episode with someone who was touched by Coach Tomi. Whether they knew him personally or just learned from someone who did did invite them to come along for the journey. We're nearing the end, but we aren't quite there yet. This is Becoming Undone. The Life lessons and legacy of Coach Dick Tony A Toby Brooks Passion Project Coming Undone is a Nitrohype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at Becoming Undone Pod. Follow me at tobyj.brooks. check out my link tree at linktr EE tobyjbrooks. Subscribe and please leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you're listening right now. Until next time, thanks for listening. Be purposeful. Be relentless. Love somebody enough to tell them the truth. But above all else, keep on becoming undone.